JEREMY NARBY & FRANZ TREICHLER

Jeremy Narbys critical view of anthropology has been marked by his stays in the
Amazonian forest. He spent several years in Peru working with the Indians,
notably on the issue of territorial rights. Thats where he met with shamans, who
gave him an intimate knowledge of the hallucinatory sphere. He was thus able to
construct new hypotheses for research and to write a controversial book, The
Cosmic Serpent, which was published in 1995. Hes currently carrying on with his
investigations with the writing of a book on the intelligence of nature and with the
Amazonia Ambient Project. The AAP links up anthropologic tales - about ecology,
shamanism and the encounter with different cultures - with the improvised music
of The Young Gods, a band that was founded by Franz Treichler in the early 80s.
For this new performance, the band draws its inspiration from their new ambient
album entitled Music for Artificial Clouds, which mingles electro-organic sounds,
percussions and recordings made in Amazonia.

Q: In The Cosmic Serpent, your thesis is that nature, the spirits of nature, pass
information on to shamans through the hallucinatory sphere. The theoretical
explanation focuses on biophotons, which are emitted by living beings and which
would be the visual language of these exchanges. Since the release of the book in
1995, has there been any confirmation of these hypotheses ?

Jeremy Narby : It was one possibility among others. But where does this
information come from ? Thats the same as asking how consciousness works. As
you know, its the black box. Biophotons remain a slightly marginal
phenomenon ; its so difficult to measure in vivo. Intuitively, it seems right to me
that light plays a fundamental role in biology which has been neglected up until
now. But its true that there is a lack of hard data on which to rely. On the other
hand, I did a simple test which I describe at the end of Shamans Through Time.
We asked molecular biologists to submit themselves to the shamanic
state of consciousness in order to see if they could find information in
their visions which was pertinent to their research. We did this in 1999 in
Peru with three leading researchers and the results were conclusive.
That scientists can find information in visions orchestrated by shamans is
an idea that will now need to be tested as many times as possible.

Why did you exclusively take researchers in molecular biology with you ?

JN : The main issue in The Cosmic Serpent is that knowledge relevant to

molecular biology can be reached through Amazonian shamanism. Therefore I
wanted to try to test this hypothesis by taking several molecular biologists down
there to undergo this experience. I could have invited psychologists, quantum
physicians, etc. But I didnt want to mix everything up. It was the first time in my
life I was testing a hypothesis. Maybe I hadnt realized what it represented.
Imagine asking people to submit their psyches to hallucinations ! Taking
scientists who are respected by their peers, who have never taken mind-altering
substances, and accompanying them into Amazonian reality to the point of
hallucinating What if the three scientists had gone mad ? Drinking ayahuasca or
taking LSD is quite risky, thinking otherwise is absurd. Thats why I wasnt in a
hurry to repeat the experiment. You should listen to nature and humans are part
of it. If humanity as a whole is not in a hurry to put this hypothesis to the test,
maybe its because it is not ready yet. The meeting will take place sometime
later.

What happened with the scientists you took to Peru ?

JN : I cant talk on their behalf, but as they say in The Night of the Liana - the
film that was made about this experiment - the three of them changed
drastically. The way they now consider plants and other species has changed their
lives. When they got back, two of them decided to get involved into Chinese
medicine. Theyre looking for something in between Amazonian shamanism and
molecular biology. Ayahuasca gave them a hard time with regards to their own
personalities. When you work in a lab, you try to evacuate subjectivity. There,
before you get visions of interwoven snakes, of DNA, of proteins, youve got to
clean up your mind. It is hard to find oneself in this subjective, irrational and
terrifying world. Its difficult for a scientist whos used to move step by step and
to conceive restricted hypotheses. Science works with the idea of control ; in the
shamanic sphere, you have to agree to let yourself be carried by the waves.

Is there a limit to the type of information that can be received ?

JN : There is a fascinating book called The Antipodes of the Mind by Benny

Shanon. Note that he is not an anthropologist, but a cognitive psychologist at the
University of Jerusalem. He has really done an in-depth study on what people see
under the influence of ayahuasca ; he has classified, categorized, analyzed. In my
opinion, he goes further than what I wrote in my book on the acquisition of
knowledge through ayahuasca. Benny Shanon doesnt see limits to the type of
information that can be received.

These spirits of nature would thus give information. You ask questions and you
get answers. Do these spirits seek information from the shamans as well ? Is
there an exchange or does communication work only in one way ?

JN : It seems that there is an exchange. The spirits of nature that the

shamans talk about like singing, they like melody. They also like tobacco
smoke, which is food to them. They also like respect for what they bring ;
that is to say that someone who is going to use the information to heal,
who is going to transmit it constructively will have the favor of these
entities. People who use the information for their own purposes will have
a tendency to finish badly. Thats what the shamans say.

Could you tell us more precisely what the icaros are ?

JN : The icaros are chants that shamans use as a technique to communicate with
the other beings of nature. They use them in a precise way, in order to have an
impact on a mind altered by psycho-active plants. They are a tool for navigating
through the hallucinatory sphere, by using certain melodies and words. The
shaman orchestrates the visions of the person who takes part in an ayahuasca
session. The icaros are also used to heal, to balance energies in the body ; as if
the body were a tuning fork, they vibrate through the body and heal it. Besides, it
would be very interesting to study the link that exists between melodic vibrations
and the energetic equilibrium of the body.

Have you continued to explore hallucinogens ?

JN : With prudence and preferably in Peru with local shamans whom I know and
respect. But I feel much more at home with rationalism than with shamanism. I
think its a mistake to consider it necessary to undergo a lengthy training in
shamanism in order to be able to comment on shamanism. On the contrary, to be
outside the phenomenon while understanding the approach can help, because
people who delve into it often find themselves facing the ineffable.

What subjects do you deal with in your next book ?

JN : Its been two years and a half since I started investigating the intelligence of
animals and plants. I left Amazonia as a place for research in order to look into
science laboratories in different countries. This journey took me from Toulouse to
Edinburgh to Sapporo in Japan, a country which has a Shintoist culture and is
highly developed scientifically. The Japanese believe that theres never been a
barrier between humans and other species. In Japan, scientists raise questions
stemming from other presuppositions, which are rather animistic. They
presuppose that plants and animals possess a form of intelligence, but they
recognise that the European word intelligence presents a problem. They have
other words, like chi sei for instance, which represents the capacity to know. In
Sapporo, Toshiyuki Nakagaki put a true slime mould into a maze and
demonstrated that this creature - which is composed of only one cell - was able
to solve the maze, even though it has no brains. Nakagaki describes this feat as
an instance of chi sei. The data indicate that this brainless cell is able to
calculate the shortest path and take it. But the mechanism of calculation it uses
remains unknown.

On an anthropological level, you are more into interpretation, auto-criticism, and

non-respect for barriers. Is it an approach that quickly imposed itself on your
research ?

JN : Once I got my doctorate at Stanford, I turned my back on the academic

world. I started a project that was quite political, in favor of the rights of the
indigenous people of Amazonia. The point was to make Amazonian thought and
practices familiar here, in ecological circles, and vice versa, to show the
Amazonian Indians that there were ecologists here who wanted to support them.
So there was anthropological translation and interpretation in both directions, but
it was completely practical, not theoretical, and not academic. Thanks to Nouvelle
Plante, the Swiss NGO that employs me, I have benefited from thirteen years of
absolute freedom. I have complete autonomy to choose and support projects in
Amazonia. Having demonstrated the relevance of the practical work, I began to
write The Cosmic Serpent in order to explain the knowledge of the indigenous
Amazonian people. That seemed to me a necessary part of defending these
peoples rights. It was not just about demarcating territories, it was also
necessary to show that their knowledge was pertinent. I was just someone who
raised funds and who was in favor of ecology and of indigenous people. I did not
really see myself as a critic of molecular biology or anything. I took the
knowledge of the indigenous people seriously enough to want to try to bring
together diverse fragments from the libraries and to see how to put this mosaic
together. And that was The Cosmic Serpent project, in which, to show solidarity
with the thought of Amazonian people, I had to flout the barriers between
disciplines. In the end, you notice that there are too many links for it to be
coincidence. We have been blinded by the fragmentation of our own knowledge.
Anthropologists know little about botany, botanists know little about neurology,
etc Now its been nine years since the publication of The Cosmic Serpent. Ive
been told that some respected academics do not consider my work as
anthropology. Maybe I dont do anthropology in the classic sense of the term. The
entire approach of the book goes against the grain of what is practiced in classic
academic disciplines. Ultimately, I find it almost normal that they have a hard
time swallowing such a story ; theyre just doing their job.

So there is still no instruction of this type of thought in the universities ?

JN : To my knowledge, no. There are young people who contact me to find out
where they can learn anthropology as I practice it. Up until now, I have had to
reply that I dont really know. If someone reads what I say here and can
contradict me, I would be very happy. There is a post-graduate diploma on
comparative religions and altered states of consciousness just starting at the
University of Lausanne though. They invited people from the best circles, like
Isabelle Stengers, and they told me I could say whatever I wanted. So, there are
some signs of change.

What can possibly be done to make mentalities evolve in the academic world ?

JN : Depending on an academic institution to earn your living limits what you are
able to think, to do and to say. Peoples careers are at stake, there are many
small pyramids of power. The professors hold their positions for life, and when
youre the one who decides what the truth is on a subject, you dont open the
door to heretics. An anthropologist who takes hallucinogenic drugs with Indians,
bare feet in the forest, cant be taken seriously. Thats not the way to study DNA.
They have equipment worth millions that bombard DNA molecules with electrons,
thats the way they do science.

Franz Treichler : In one of your texts, you say that its a contradiction to try to
prove that indigenous people have gained rational knowledge through
hallucinogens.
JN : Thats the very definition of psychosis. There are epistemological blocks. I
found it easier to drop the idea of proving anything. I found that it was fruitful to
go through the universities, to use the good side of rationalism, and afterwards,
to go into reality. Universities are not true reality. They need changing, but its
such an enormous job Whats great about music is that the opinions of your
colleagues do not determine what you do.

FT : You escape a lot of that in music, even though you have other constraints.
But its true that they give you less trouble. If you hallucinate, everybody will find
you great, its the opposite

You talk about the incapacity of Westerners to hallucinate. Does the work youre
doing together amount to teaching us to unlearn certain mental schemas in order
to put us in a receptive state ?

JN : Yes, combining music and anthropological stories as we do in the Amazonia

Ambient Project seeks to stimulate peoples mental imagery. Its a trance without
drugs.

Franz, you accompanied Jeremy to Peru. Could you tell us about your
experience ?

FT : I accompanied him twice, and each time I had the impression that it was too
short. Just to find yourself in that environment makes you realize to what extent
you are accustomed to your European vision, how you would like things to
happen. Its difficult to adapt, be it only to the pace of life, to approach their
everyday life, the relationship they have with spirits, with nature. When you put
yourself in the hands of a medicine man, or in those of the leader of an
ayahuasca session in nature, you explore this world peopled by spirits. Its very
difficult to understand what is happening, but a lot of question marks have been
removed. But I never stayed long enough to reach the stage of meeting the spirit
of a given plant. That already goes much further, its a more complex
apprenticeship.

Have you brought things back, for example for your performance with Jeremy ?

FT : In this performance, I have no pretension at all of doing shamanism. We try

to relate the experience of a world, as we lived it. Its very difficult to share that.
The people who manage to do that have been taking plants for forty years, they
grew up with it. Its something that demands a lot more time and involvement.
You cannot be halfway in this world and halfway in the other. I hesitate a lot. For
example, the shamans songs that Ive recorded, I didnt really want to put them
on disc. To do so would bother me because it would once again be a European
approach, to want to have it all. What is interesting in this experience is the
manner in which you get involved, the way you make yourself available. We also
hope that people will want to approach this world. But we talk about ecology as
well, of the sociopolitical, of exchanges, of the multicultural, of bilingualism ;
which goes hand in hand with our vision of things. For me personally, its a
beneficial experience, thats for sure. I encourage everyone to go traveling, if you
can afford to, and to experiment with that.

And to travel down there ? That may cause problems, as in Mexico where crowds
of people went on quest

FT : I read the biography of Maria Sabina, and its true that that did a lot of harm.
But at the same time, there are many people down there who are waiting. For
example, the shaman Juan Flores would like people to come to his center,
because he thinks that its good for humanity. He thinks that its necessary that
people see the world like the indigenous people - the world of spirits. As for
myself, I am more in-between. But its true that its better to have a good guide ;
otherwise its not really the same thing. And you feel it, make yourself humble,
you feel that youre in good hands, thats important. They make an effort to guide
you, they take everything upon themselves, because sometimes highly emotional
things come out. You have the impression that they know where they stand. If
someone is sick - psychologically or physically - within a few seconds, they will
sing a special song for them, they will take care of them until it passes, and they
dont take enormous risks. They are not there to impress people, its all the same
to them. They have such confidence in the plants, they know that what they are
doing is right. If you have a physical problem, its because you need it. It isnt in
order to avoid taking responsibility that they have that attitude, you can really
feel it. They are very aware of what they are doing, thats very impressive.

Could you tell us about their relationship to music ?

FT : They are there and they sing, thats it. Sometimes you can have variations
with a flutist, or a rattle player. But usually you just have nature and singing, it is
the most total purification. Its a return to the essential that, once again, raises a
lot of questions. Just think about all the things that have to be set up for a
concert, or the technology that goes into a laptop But that doesnt prevent me
from working with a laptop because I believe in it.

After several trips down there, what are your views on drug use ?

JN : I learnt that you should take plants rather than chemical products. Secondly,
you should do it with a goal, that is to say in order to psycho-activate the brain.
For example, I like to take mushrooms by myself, without alcohol, while listening
to music, to shamans songs, with the deliberate aim of bringing images into my
head, to reflect upon serious and deep subjects. But, unlike ayahuasca,
mushrooms are these little jokers. There is a personality behind mushrooms that
easily plays tricks on you, they have fun with you.

FT : Here people use drugs to entertain themselves, drugs arent considered as a

tool for knowledge. Down there, they search for knowledge. They basically take
them to find answers, for example for the organization of a village, or to heal
people, or for hunting. Here its to escape from everyday life, to forget your
problems for a moment. Down there its in order to solve them.