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Ihaveanexistingrunwaybeamwithacapchannel.Therunwayneedstobereinforcedtocarryanewhighercapacity
crane,soIamaddingachanneltothebottomflangetogettheextracapacity.

WhenIdidthecalcsIhadthebottomchanneltoeupsoIhadadoublysymmetricsection(topandbottomchannelsarethe
samesize).NowI'mthinkingit'sgoingtobemucheasiertoweldwiththebottomchanneltoeddown.

MaybeIhaven'thadenoughcoffeethismorning,butisthereaproblemwithdoingthis?TheIvaluewouldincreaseslightly,
butthereissuchasmallareaattheextremebottomfiberthatI'mworriedIamgoingtoreachyieldsooner.

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Thesituationyoudescribedinthelastsentenceismyconcerntoo.Canyoureplacethebottomchannelwiththickercover
platetoachievethesameresult?Orastructuralteewithwebweldedtobeambottomflange.

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Yes,you'llreachyieldsooneratthosetips.

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Apparentparadox,though.Formastressstandpoint,youareprobablybetterwiththetoesup.Fromastrengthstandpoint,
youareprobablybetterwiththetoesdown.Itwouldbeinterestingtorunthenumbers.

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Perhapsavalidanalogyisasteeltapemeasure.Itisfarmorestableasacantileveredbeamwiththeconcaveupratherthan
down.Ibelievethatthereasonisbecausethecompressivebucklingstrengthoftheedgesislessthanthetensileyield
strength.

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I'mataloss,whywouldtoesdownreachyieldsooner?Sxgetsbigger,Mxisthesame,stressgoesdown.Theshapeofthe
extremefibermakesnodifference,onlyit'sdistancefromtheneutralaxisdoesthat.

Evenso,aplatemakesmoresense,it'seasiertoclampandjustaseasytoweld.

Michael.
Timinghasalottodowiththeoutcomeofaraindance.

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pad:

Ithinktheymeanmaterialdeteriorationcouldbefasterthanotherwayaround(legsup),becauseofthelegssujecttothe
maximumstresswithinsuchsmallareas,providesthestresswillfluctuatewithpositionofthecrane,andisrepeativein
nature,forwhichfatigueisaconcern.

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Paddingtongreen

I'mguessingthatcwillgrowfasterthanI,andthatSx(I/c)willgodown.Icouldbewrong.Wouldhavetorunthenumbers.

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Let'ssee.Withtoesdown,f=M*y/I.Misthesame.Iincreasesabitbutnottoomuch.Thec.g.movesdownslightly.The
ydistancetothetipsofthelowerchannelincreasesbythewidthoftheflangelessthewebthicknesslesstheshiftinc.g.

Firstyield,Ithink,wouldoccurearlierbuttheplasticmoduluswouldincrease,soultimatestrengthisslightlygreaterwiththe
toespointingdown.

BA

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Separatefromthestress/yieldissueistheconstructabilityissue.Withtoespointinguponthebottomflangechannel,without
knowingtherelativeWFflangewidthbfvs.thechanneldepthandchannelbf,canyouevengetastickinthereat30degrees
max.tilttoaccesstheflangetiptoweldthemtogether?Inotherwords,wouldthechannelflangesimpedeweldaccess?

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ForthehellofitIransomequicknumbers(usingCAD).
AW14x34&C10x15.3Caps.
ToesDown:Sx(bottom)=86.9in^3
ToesUp:Sx=103.1in^3

CgrewfasterthanIinthiscase....so,justrunthenumbersandmadeSxsmallerwithtoesdown.

Iranthesereallyquick....couldbewrong!!!

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Bytheway,abitofadviceinweldingchannelcapstoIshapedgirders.
Ihavefounditgoodpracticetoplugweldthechannelonthecenterlineofcap&girderpriortoweldingtheflangetipstothe
channelweb.
Thishelpstomitigateheatdistortion/cuppingofthechannelwebthatcancreateavoidbetweenthebeamflangeand
channelweb.Thatvoid,whencyclicallyloadedfatiguestheflangetowebwelds.

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Thanksforthereplies.IranthenumbersandIgetthesamescenarioStillerzgets.IxgoesupbutSxgoesdownwithtoes
down.

Asothershavesuggestedaplatemightmakemoresense,sothatisthewayI'mprobablygoing.Nowtocalculateshear
flow.

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Hmmmmm....Irememberseeingagoodshearflowargumentthatwasonlyafewhundredpostslongsomewhere....

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InstantaneousShearFlow=V*Q/Iuseforintermittentwelddesign.(Idon'tlikeusingstitchweldsonheavyindustrialormill
dutyrunways).

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Atendsuseaforce=M*Q/Itodesigntheweld.
M=allowablemomentofsection.

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Suggesttousecontinuousweldforthissituation.Donotworryoverdesignforthisisafatiquesensitivestructure.Consult
withpersonfamiliarwithfieldweldingpracticetocomeupagoodweldingprocedure,QA&QC.

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Iconcurr....stayawayfromtheintermittentweldsunlessaverylightapplicationwherethecraneisnotusedoften.

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Justathought...asproposedbyFLCraneBuilderinanotherthread.Canyouhavethecranebuiltdifferentlyratherthan
modifyingtherunway?Wouldsavealotofsitewelding/expense.

thread507258757:AASHOIVGirderBridgeCraneRunway

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Thanksfortheweldingtips.Idon'thavealotofexperiencewithfatigueissues.Whyarestitchweldsbad?Thisisnota
heavydutycrane.I'dsaymoderateservice.

I'vealreadysuggestedjustputtinginanewbeam.Maybeoncetheyseewhatsortofweldingisinvolvedthey'llchangetheir
mind.

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Stitchweldshaveastressconcentrationattheendsofeachweldsegment,whichisbadforfatigue.

SimilarlyStillerz'sideaofusingplugweldsatthebeamweb.Icanseehisargumentbutitwouldtakealotmorethanhis
recommendationherebeforeIusedit.(NodisrespectintendedStillerz.)

CommonwisdomistousecontinuousweldsattheflangetipsIFfatiguecouldbeanissue.

Dependingontheindustry,toesupcouldleadtoatrayfullofdustetc,withthecraneploughingthruthedust!

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hokie66,IliketheideafromFLCraneBuilderintheotherthread,butIdon'thavecontroloverthecranebeing
purchased.Theclientisgettingadealonaused30toncrane,andwantstoputitonanexisting10tonrunway.

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Iftheratedcranecapacityhasincreased3folds,youmayneedtocheckoncolumns,braces,andbackuptruss,whichcould
suffermoreloadincreasethanthebeams.

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Stillerz:RE:your10DEC0915:53post

Afterallthetroubleyouhavecaused,allthemanhoursconsumedononetopic,youshouldneverbeallowedtoutterthe
phrase'shearflow'inpublicagain.Youcancountonthatsubjectbeingonyourfinalexam.I'mstilllookintobuysome
shearflow,seemsyouhavecausedaworldshortageofshearflowwithyourantics.

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OnethingthatIdon'tseeaddressedhereisrelatedtothepurposeoftheoriginaltopchannel,lateralloadstrength.Ifyou
areusingthebottomchanneltogetasymmetricsection,keepinmindthatyouhavelosttheuseofthechannelforlateral

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load.

Ifthiscombinedsectiondoeshappentohavesomereservestrengthafteraccountingforstrongaxisbending,thenthetop
flange/channelwillprovidesomestrengthforlateralloads,butI'mguessingthatitislittle.

Ihopethisworksforyou.

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Iseenowit'sthebottomthechannelisbeingaddedtopleaseignoremycommentaboutcraneploughingthrudust.

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Perhaps,insteadofsimplyaddingachanneloraplatetothebottomoftheexistingrunwaybeam,youshouldbeaddingaW
shapesothatyousignificantlyincreasethesectionmodulusofthebeam.Youaregoingfroma10tontoa30toncraneso
thisisnotanunreasonablesolution.

Theflangewidthoftheaddedbeamshouldbegreaterthantheflangewidthoftheexistingsothatyoucanusedownhand
welding.Thecostoftheadditionalmaterialisnotgoingtobesignificantcomparedtothelaborcost.

BA

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Is30tcapacityrequired?
Justbecausethecraneisratedfor30t,itdoesn'tmeanthatthetotalsystemhastobe.

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apsix,

Thesystemhastoberatedthesameasthecrane.Ifthecraneisdownratedto20t,thentherunway,etc.couldberated20
taswell,withtheactualmassofthecraneusedintherunwaydesign.

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dhengr
Ihopelikehellyouarejsutbeingasmartass(assumingwiththesmileyfacethatyouare).Icanappreciateit.

Iwillsaythishowever:TherearepeoplewhopostedalotmoreonthesubjectthanIdid.Obviouslyitwasagooddiscussion
as14millionpostsweremadeonthesubject.Ifyouneedsomeshearflowhereishowtocalculateit....
ShearFlow=VQ/I,whereQisthefirst.....

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I'mintriguedbythenotionthatfromanallowablestressstandpoint,youarebetterwiththetoesup,whereasfroman
allowablestrengthstandpoint,youareprobablybetterwiththetoesdown.I'mtryingtodetermineif,infact,thestrengthof
thesectiongoesupbypointingthetoesdown,accordingtoAISC360,butit'sturningintoaninvolvedprocess,and,well,I've
gottogetbacktowork.Ifanyonehasthetimetotakethison,I'dliketoseetheresults.

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Fromapracticalviewpoint,whatkindofenvironmentdoesthisbridgecraneoperatein?Ifitisinafoundryoraplacethat
hasmaterialthatcouldcollectinatoesupchannel,thenIwouldsuggestacoverplateinstead.

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Stillerz:
Youguessedit,Imostcertainlywasjustpullingyourleg.Yourpostgeneratedanamazingamountofdiscussiononatopic
whichwestudiedinourstrengthofmaterialsandtheoryofelasticityclassesinschool,butsomepeoplestillseemtohave
sometroublewith.Therewereanumberofinterestingvariationsonexplainingthesubject.Thesubjectofshearflowused

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tobeoneofmystd.questionsduringjobinterviews,forengineeers,becausewedidsomuchfabricationofunusualbuiltup
sections.Seethepostsafter2DEC09onthatthreadformycommentsinthesamevaneasabove,againjusttryingtoinject
alittlelevity.IthoughtIunderstoodthesubjectafteryearsofdealingwithit,thediscussiongotprettyinvolvedandintense,
andtimeconsuming,butIdowanttoreaditallwhenIgettimetotrytomakesenseoutofeachpostandthebest
explanationsofthetopic.

Onthisthread:Iwoulduseaddedplatesthebottomonebeingwiderthantheexistingbot.flg.toallowdownhand
welding.Usemin.,butsufficient(VQ/I),sizedcontinuousfilletweldsateachflg.tip.Theyareeasiertomake,muchless
fatiguesensitivethanstitchwelding,andrequiremuchlesslayouttime,maybeonlyonesizechangeinspanlength.Idislike
plugweldsforthesamereasonIdislikestitchweldsfromthefatiguestandpoint.Topplatecouldbeadded,atopthe
channel,tobalancethecrosssection,approx.samewidthastopflg.onmainbeam.But,mustnowdesignweldbtwn.
plate/channelandcheckincreasedshearflow(weldsize)btwn.channelandmainbeam.Also,checklargershearflowin
mainbeamwebjustbelowtheradiusbtwn.itsflg./web,thatprettywelladdressesthebeam.Asothershavesaid,brackets,
columns,etc.maycomeintoplaytoo.Thedealontheusedcranemayturnouttobeanexpensivedeal.

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dhengr:

Seemsyouhavefinallygotabundantsupplyof"shearflow":)

"...andcheckincreasedshearflow(weldsize)btwn.channelandmainbeam.Also,checklargershearflow..."

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dhengr:
Idefinitelyappreciatethesarcasm...Iwaslaughingprettydamnhardatyourpost.IdeclareyoutheShearFlowKing.

Letmebeclearhere...theplugweldsIadviseareputinplacepriortoweldingthebeamflangetothechannelweb.This
doeshelpcontrolheatdistortioninthechannelwebandkeepsitingoodcontactwiththebeamflangedirectlyunderthe
cranerail.Wehavedonemanyrunwaysurveyswherestitchweldshadcrackedanduponinvestigationthechannelcapwas
cuppedallowingthechannelwedto"bounce"upanddown.

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"wed"="web"
shearflow

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WhileVQ/I=0nearthecenterofthebuiltupbeam,mayseemtoindicatenoneedforweldbtwn.theflg.andwebona
uniformlyloadedsimplebeamthereareatleasttworeasonswhythatisnotso.Theflg.ishighlystressedandcouldbuckle
ifnotweldedtoandstiffenedbythewebandinthiscaseamovingwheelloadmustbetransmittedthroughtheflg.tothe
web,throughbearinginthewelds,samewouldapplytoanypointloadingontheflgs.Withoutlargepointloadingthemin.
weldsizewillbegovernedbyrelativeplatethicknessmax.weldsizevs.thinnestpl.andmin.sizevs.thickerpl.,toassure
enoughheatinputtothethickerpl.toprovideasoundweldwithoutHAZcrackingproblems.

Stillerz:RE:theplugweldstheyareanintermittentstressraiserwithmanyofthesamestartandstopandweldrootand
heatinputproblemsasexistwithstitchwelds,asthesemattersrelatetoafatiguesensitivestructures.Thisissomewhatless
aproblemwhentheweldsoccurinacompressionregion.IjusthaveanaversiontoplugweldsandstitchweldsifIcan
avoidthemonanythingbutastaticstructure.Idoseeyourconcernforchannelwebdistortion,butthatisanargumentfor
min.sufficientfilletweldsizeattheWFflg.tiptoCweb.Icanseehowthefilletweldswouldtendtocausethechannelweb
tobellyup,particularlyiftheyareheavywelds.Doesn'tboltingthetrackdowntotheWFeliminatemost,orall,ofthe
channelwebdistortion?Shouldyouboltthetrackdownbeforeyoumakethefilletwelds.Wouldn'tthatmovementunderthe
railcausecompressionatthefilletroot,andthusbealesssignif.fatiguesituation?But,yousaytheywerestitchwelds,that
bothersmemorethantheflexureofthechannelweb.Iamnotarguingwithsuccessortheconsiderableevidenceyousay
youhave,butjustofferingfoodforthought.Iworkedonsomecranerailsinourownshops,andafewmoreotherwise,soI
don'tclaimtobeanexpertonthesubject.But,Idon'trecallthinkingthatthetopchannelwebdistortionwasanissue.A
goodguywitharosebudtorchcouldheatthetopofthechannelwebanddrawthatbellyoutofit.Ifbuildingnew,wouldyou
rollanintentional,reversebellyintothechannelweb,clampthechanneldownoutattheflg.tips,dofilletwelds,andthe
weldswoulddrawmostofthereversebellyoutofthechannelweb?

cntw1953:afterthesecoupleofposts,I'verunoutofshearflowagain,formyownproject.Istillwanttojustbuythatstuff
buythelinealfootorin1000lblotssoIcaneliminateallthecalcs.andheadaches.Ideallyitwouldcomeintubes,like

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caulking,thenyoucouldjustflowhowevermuchofthatthereshearintothejointasyouthoughtyouneeded.

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dhengr:

JustGoogleit,youwillgetplentyofftheshelveofprogramvendors:)

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Forfearofgettingintoanother8yearlongposting,shearflowtypesessionhere...thisismyfinalattempttoexplainmy
thoughtprocesshere.

TheweldprocedureIspecis:

First,PlugweldChannelwebtobeamflangesayevery2feettoensurethetosurfacesareflattogetherandtoMITIGATE,
notELIMINATE,cupping.

Secondly,CONTINUOUSLYweldthebeamflangetipstoChannelweb.

IdonotadvocatetheuseofintermittentweldsnortheuseofONLYplugwelds.

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dhengr:

Iyoumakeonemorereplytothis,Iwillfiretheshearflowdiscussionbackupandkeepitgoingforyears!!!!

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Atriskofperpetuatinganotherlengthydebate,I'dliketoweighinonintermittentweldsforcapchannels.....Inmyworldof
Lowercapacity,lightduty,moderatedutyandevensomewhatheavydutybridgecranes(iesteelservicecenters),wehave
notEVERcontinuouslyweldedacapchannel.Alwaysbeenstitchwelded.Thefirmhasbeendoingitfornearly50yearsand
thousandsofftofbeam.Irecognizethisdoesnotmakeitright....Butwe'veexperiencednoproblemswiththispractice.
Oneoftherunwaydesignprogramsweuseevensizesandquantifiestheintermittentwelds.Thesoftwarewonsome
kindofawardfromAISChttp://www.ezsdc.com/software1.aspx
Fromacostperspective,I'mquitesurethatothercrane&runwaybuildersuseintermittentweldsforthisapplication.Ina
competitiveenvironment,biddingcontinuousweldswouldcauseonetolosethejob...
Ofcourse,continuousweldcostsmoreandinthecaseoftopchannelwillputnegativecamberinthebeamwhichfewshops
havetheequipmenttoremove.Iamquitesuremostownersdonotknoworcareabouttheeffectsofnegativecamberor
reducedfatigueresistance.Intheseeconomictimes,theyarebuyingcheapestavailableproducts&servicestheycanfind.
Incontrasttoallofthis,mydesignpreferenceistouseheavierweightbeamsasopposedtoaddingcapchannels.This
doesn'tapplytooriginalpostthough.

Insummary,itappearsIneedtostudythefatigueissue,and,beingacostguy,I'dliketodiscouragegeneralstatements
thattheseweldsshouldalwaysbecontinuous.IhopeIhavenotruffledanyfeatherswiththisbutbothsidesoftheissue
shouldbeconsidered.

OhandthanksmuchtoHokie66forreferringtooneofmypreviousposts.It'snicetoseemythoughtsareappreciated.

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Iwouldliketosaythatinreferencingcontinuouswelds,Iwasreferringtomilldutycranerunwaysonly.

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Ignoringfatigueconsiderations,IcalculatethattheAISC360allowablestrengthofthesectionwithaW14x34and2
C10x15.3sis2%higherifthebottomchannellegspointdown,ratherthanup.Astrangeresult,sincetheelasticstresses
are19%higherthatway.Havingbeenbroughtuptominimizestresses,it'sdifficulttothinkofthelegsdownsectionasthe
betterone.Butitis,accordingtothecurrentcode.

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Itwouldappearthat,withthelowerchannelbeingbuilt"legsdown"onthebottomofsomebeam,theeffectivenessofthe
"fabricated"channelisgreaterwiththelegsdown.

Legsdownonthebottombeam(orlegsuponthetopchannel),thetipofeachofthelegsisfurtherfromthecenterlineof
thewholebeam.

Legsuponthebottom(orlegsonthetopchannel),thetwolegsareclosertothemiddleoftheentirebeam,andsothe
strength(endingresitance)oftheentirebeamassemblyisless.(Weldingaccessandprobabilitiesofcorrosionandthelike
skippedforafewminutes.)

But,lookingatasinglechannelbyitself,legsuporlegsdownwouldbecomemoreamatterofconvenienceandconnections
andwelding,notlegposition.

ButImuststressthatIamonlygoingtogowiththeintermittentflowonthisone....8<)

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IntheLRFDworld,howyoutakecareofunstiffenedchannellegs?Withsomestrengthreductionfactor?

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cntw1953

Idon'tthinkthereisanyreductionunlesstheflangewidthtothicknessratioexceeds0.38E/F y.

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Guys,

Itypicallyavoidplugwelds,butIloveringwelds.

tg

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canttellifyouarekiddingtrainguy....
ringweld?weldring?

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NojokeintendedStillerz.

Drillalargehole(e.g.1inchdia.)andmakeafilletweldontheedgetoconnecttotheadjacentpiece.Couldbea
terminologyissue,Isuspect.Similartoaslotweld.

tg

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ringwraithschasingthering?

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