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MR. BtJGt!OSI

SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
DEPARTMENT NO. 104 HON. CHARLES H. OLDER, JUDGE

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA,

Plaintiff,
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vs. No. A253156

CHARLES MANSON, SUSAN ATKINS,
LESLIE VAN HOUTEN, PATRICIA KRENWINKEL,
Defendants.

REPORTERS' DAILY TRANSCRIPT

Thursday, January 28, 1971

APPEARANCES:
For the People:
For Deft. Manson:
VINCENT T. BUGLIOSI,
DONALD A. MUSICH,
STEPHEN RUSSELL KAY,
DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS
I. A. KANAREK, Esq.

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For Deft. Atkins: DAYE SHINN, Esq ..
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For Deft. Van Houten:
MAXWELL KEITH Es~.
For Deft. Krenwinkel: PAUL FITZGERALD, Esq.

VOLUME 171 JOSEPH B. HOLLOMBE, CSR .. ,

MURRAY MEHLMAN, CSR. ,
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PAGES 21637 to 21 , 812 Official Reporters

CieloDrive.can
 VOLUME 171_ Thur.ad.a . Januar 1971 P es 21637 - 21812

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3 PEOPLE1 S WI!NBSS:
I 1{ DE X
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DIRECT CROSS RiDIR'.tCT RECROSS
4 . CR0l$_.,. ;Bernard 2i690 2172.7K
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9. E X. H I '.B I T S
11.o PEOPLE t s.: _ FOR I'.DENTIFICATlON l:N .EVIDENCE

.n ' Pl . Photograph of male. caucasi.an 2..1712

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 21637

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(The following prqc.eedings 'We.re. bad in the'

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chambers of the court out of the presence and hea~ng

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of '

tha-- d~tendants ani the jury~ all ~olttlsl with the

7 e~cep~ion of Mr. Hughes bein$ pr~sent:)

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. 8 TH$ COURT! All coun~e1 are p~eaent
,, ' AxJ~ Wi! 1:e.ady -to commence. the 'penalty .phase, -
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JO. gent:lemen?
,' 'l1 1-$,~ l}UGLlOSI,: Yes ..
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.. 12 ' 'THE cotJBX: ,Be.fo~e the ~fendants ar~ b:J:oUgbt down,

:I "itl:tend to st-art ~i.tlJ. the defe1,1dant$ in ~he cou~troom,
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but as l'. have indicate be.fore, in view of the past
history.' if there is anY. disruption I will .act to remove
J~, them..
J/1 '
MR. FITZGERA'.LD: t' have some motions I would like
. l8 to, lllf!t,ke- actually .statt, 'the ,penalty phase~ .
befo-re WE!

THE COUllTt J.)Q yO:$ want -to ll\ake those. .here .or irt
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op..n ct;iui:~? '

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, , MR~ 7~'t~,'LD ;,: i pref~r to make them :tn open
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23 . THE :COURT:
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With. the 'Jurt. p;ese~ti..
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'24 $. 0, F!TZGElIALfi: No, -without t;he Jury presep.tJ

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. be.tte~. do -{t in the. pze$epc~- o1;, ,mY clt~n'e al,o. '.
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26 ' THE. COURt, AJ;J.yth1.n~. else~. :~ w~nted ~o as\( your

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 21638

1 ' 1:espeotiv e e.stitnatf:i!rS; if you have any ..

2 MR" BUGLIOS.r: -Our case will be brief, yo:e Honor-.
3 Wha.~ we would like to offer :i.s .a shooting., :tnvolving
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Manson and a bl.sack tlan on iFranklin Boulevard f 8o11ywood.
It: w.111 be very brief.
Al.sow~ would like to put on the Hinman murd$r
1 against Susan Atkins,, again very ver;y brief.
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~ 8. ' . :We a.re not .goi1;1g into any detai.ls or anythil:ig,
9 ' basic~1l.y the <for.oner- s test;ilnony, the rnur4~r a-cene and an
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10 .alleged c(:)n::ees.a:ion by Susan A.tkins1 and then an Oregon
. .
11 ' inc!de~t. in which Susan Atk:tn11 was involvei;l. veey.'\7e:ty
briefly, . ."

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l think our case will take our or ftve days
. ~t the. v~ry fnO$"t. We are not going to put on th~ Shea
I, I -,"iw

mur~ at all, and we ~re cn~t;, t;6ing -:eo put on the: Hinman
16 mu.rde~ agtdnst Manso~, __ bothJ
. oi whi~ wpuld
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be ye;f lo~-
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i'i dralm -ouf: af,fairs . I

2. ls . -~8 We .are not goi.ng into. .thf!,t . -.'-- ...

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2-l l THE OOURTt

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cbnfe.saion ..
J,ul. KAY: Yes.

We will ha;ve to go t'lirou~h

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the arraignment and

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s all that.
.6 llR. l3UGLIOSI: Let' me g1 ve th$ Court a copy

7 ln fact, t gave the defense attorney$ cop~e~~

s THE CQUR'l': Who wtli be the wi tness?
9 MR. KAY: Roni.; Howard.

~Q im. BtlGLIOSI t -Roni HoW'ard ..

lI irhj;;S 1-s Ron:1,. How:~rd' s statement, your Honor .

12 There .ar~ a tew Aranda proble'in.ff in there.

13, THE couRT:: l. -would t!link tbat we .would i'olJ.ow the
14 - same procedure and have her testify out '!r the p~esence -or
').5 the ju:t-\V ,....:.,

16. Mil.- BU(JLlOSl : Right.

:i.'1- T~ COURT: ......,. first> with full ,Qros-s-exatnina.tion.;
- l8 MR.. BUClL!OSI : Right

J.9 . J:t; is gotng to be brief~

20 When we g~t ax.-oun.;i, tQ _1H1e time tor the cl.eren-se~
2i l have he~r~ so many ~um.ors- as to what tne defense ts
~~ go:l.ng to b~,, I thint we shoU-ld Q~Ve some .dilJCUs.sion on -tne

'_23 I
_scope or.vh~ penalty hea~1ng.
.~4 .. :r 4911 rt know what they, int~nd' to do, but it
25
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sounds like certain thing$: aren t p~o.perly a-wn1ss,ibl..
26 during th,e pe!).alty hearing_ t:qa..t they it1tend t-o put on.
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 21~640

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But th1a. is ' , ...
p~~Jnat11l',
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right l'low ..
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MR. XA.NARE~: . ouj ko:no-~, r d6. have a motion -to oont:J,;nuE

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ba1:1,a- on F.eople
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~vs.. C:rcrvedi,. on th, bas-11 the,t we should. be
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ent1t1~4 :td. prepare/. ~ .- \ ~ , , . , -' ;:

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. r.~ . Bugl;tcis:ti as rtcently as ;yesterday- ana: t1)i;lay;
1

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. ~B- g1V:1ng -u_s Eitate~~n~a; ~}ir1b.~4;one 1}.'o Bez:nie O'~.owe and t,J: e,
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othe:.t'- to- Ron:L Howa~d..
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. -W~ did ln&:ke JllO.,t:Lons. fo~ 41scove1"1' w:ay before e-ve.n

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the tria_l started. A,nd ?ased on People v~. Oroved~, I
do make-' .a mot:.ion
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to oontinue th'e penalty phase
- e,o that ..,,
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'H-
. .. 04n -check ot\t and do what would b.$ hecess.ary in oonnec~ion
. witll this discover1.
12

He :n~s given us, as I .eay., .as ~eoently a$ .Yesterday

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the sta.t.eme:nts.

15 I _na.ppentd. to be in the court-1+oom; Y-Qttr liono:rf,

16' doing aoltle wprk tor:1 th~ ti,'1a1, and Mr,. a~gl:toa1. saw li\e,. and

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'. tn~n he w.ertt te> hi$' oft:tce- and a-sk~cf m~ t.Q drop down 1;;,o Qi,$
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-ts oftice, a,nd he gave me. a ,tatement- ,attrt-bu.ted to M:r .. C~9we-;

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Emd th;t$ mo:rn:tng he_ ga-ve Ua the Roni Howa,rd statemont.
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- So'- I do i,take a .motion ta continue.
MR. SUINN;: join in tlie motion.

.22 MR . BOGLlO.SI: Ron-1 Rowa-r(l''$ .st~tenient. 09nce,m1ng. t-he

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:24' . in ~hs repQrt right.he~e, wbich ts ~hea~e ~epo~ that we

'23
. . _w~r~ dealing.w~th

on the Tate murder3,
'26 . . . ~hl.s _ w.as- given. t.q t~e <le.tense s~vt;tra,l lllQntbs ~&o.
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 21,641

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MR. 'SH!NN-: :Will. you identity that dooum~nt -z What :1:1'

2 .. 1t?

3 MR~ BU~tIOSii It says: Transor~pt or ~~pe No.-32970,

4- , a recorded 1nte~view of Roni Howar~ -~t Sybil _Brand institute
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on
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- 5.,. ~ovembe~ 25th., 1969. And tp.e df!Jf'erts~ got. a copy ot this
-!i several months ago_
7.
With ~esp~ct to the Crowe incident, this Tnomaa
8 Wl;il_leman gave. us a statement .sevae:ral months ago, .anQ. that

9 .. has .peen 1-n our t-ubs down there, and you knew about 1:t . It.

lQ . hE!,B, been in pul:l t.ubs. for sever.al months,.

:11 , . Crowe w~ just nterviewe4, I did ap~ak to Cttowe

12 . , t:w:Lae seve.rai months ag~l bu-ti Qne time. he w.ou;J.dn't ev,n,
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'_,1'3-. , tal)c to me,, and the s~c,ond time -- I. .mean, he wa,~n't
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a.ntagoniatic-; I mean, he .1-ust didnt want to. g;Lv~
inI'orn1at;ton,
ltl.e- any

16. . . The second time he did talk to me but it was

1:t very sketchy

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 21,642

2a-1 'rhen Mr.Kay interviewed him a couple ~f days

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2 agtt, _and l in~erviewe~ him. yesterday,and you have copies
3 of those ,:epo:rt.s ~
4 . But I ~,-111 say this: wallenian s ~eport on
5 tha~ shooting up on Franklin to.uie.vard is tno~e cOP1pl~te
6. : thM. -wh~t Crowe .sa'id; and yo'tl have had ace.es~ ~o that fo:;r:
1 several months.
I doh't think thitt is c.atchitlg you off guai:d,
9 t6u hav had d~cuments.
10 : - :MR,, SRINNi !,Xe yot,t sayin.i that this document y6u
lJ handed today dated January 27th, 1971~ this is what
U$

12 sh$ i-s -g6ing to testify to.? In other woi:ds:. this is the

13 watered...dowrt version'?
l~ MR.. ij_UGLIOSI-: No, 1:hat is '!1ot tl).e watered-down
'ii;; . version~ tl:;lat ts- the complete, statement. right there-
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16 hid :r thiuk the CQW:t -w~ll .want ~o ~~~di~e cert~in thing~ . ;

11 out of th~t. l dont k<*~ "tfefw11! have. to go through
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llf the s~ .Ar$da proce~s ~

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wtnt through dt;trtng ,~he cy:i..al,.
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19, MR. SHINN,:- ~e yo~ Jayingi Mr. Bugll.~$:l, thal! .tbie'

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21 blWl d9cument:?
. .22 MR. BUQLIOSI: No., There a.re s~ a~i-tion~l tb;ittgf ..
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23 . I sat .down a11d ta_lked -wi1zh her, , and she Qatne

24 up with some additional. things that ~ren It cortta.ined :Lu
e ~ 5i , there.
26) ;
 l a 8tatentent way back in November af 1 6.9 that .Susan Atkins

4 ;
;made an J~i~Sion
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011; the Hinman .tll~ders-. and y~u have had
access to that statement fol" se'/e:ta! mpnths .. ,Not only
acce.s$, but y.~u were actually giv.en a copy 9f it.f
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s MR. SBitm: tlhat:. page?
6 MR. BUGLIOSI: ltd. .say tt'iat you shonld read between
7 .. _pages 1 ttt\tl 13 .or 14.. She talks a.bout Bobby .and stabbing
Ga;ry. Hin.nian, It is all. in there.

.,' ~at is the se t'Gport that contain$ Sus.an

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10 Atkin t .s. confessions on .the Tate mu.tders.
1l Tl-IE COURT: All right.
lm.ything else?

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1(3 MR.__ t{ANAREK; 'Yes~ your Honor..
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14 .' t wonder, in o"tder that I not have to make. .......

15, tij'E COURT: I mean., ,anything else on your motion1
I.flt. l<ANAREK: lio-.
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I .t.
I believe that because soxnethint
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is-. in tlie ,
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is I..ibra~y Qf Oongr-ess., so to E$peak, 1$.k.e} ~. Bugliosi says.,

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t -tn~an,. his -t\tb-s .a~~

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~ . 11> . hi.tr tubs,. ju$t drawers and ~a,,ers

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20 of ntateriat, and l,
doq1-t-.think
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that the 1p.w ~ontemp.1at~-S.-- .
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~1 that as being diseovei-y. ~ . ~ ~ 1

.22 MR.. BUGLl()SI: The other defe.nse att.or11eys-..

. qame
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and up
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23 , . down opened the tuba and look$4 ,through :f.t':.

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: 24 . MR. KANAREK: 1 'have 'seen yo~ tbs., tot;>, _Mt.. : f '
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, . . -2s. _ Buglios~.

MR. BUGL;IOSI: You have seen th~ outside,

 2-:l... i)44

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$" KANARSK: l have been i.nside, too.
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' 2 MR. :BUGLIOS:C; You have been ins-:Lde. the tubs?
3' .THE' ,COURT: You c\1-d h~ve a copy of tbe tape ~eco:t-ded
4 intel'vi_1,:1w of aoni Howard, did1J 1 t yeti.~
I-JR. l{t~l:REK: Ye:S,, your Hanoi-.
'l;~ COURT: Okny.
1 '.MR. I<ANARCK~ But, you s.ec~ yo.to: Botior, the point
~ i$ --- let 1 s put :Lt this way .-.. penalty is $0 broad, without
having any particular:t.ty --
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IQ THE COUR'r: tet 1 s not get into that,.
.il -: The .point ;J.s that you knew about this particular
matte.r...

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I knew about it, andI learned it from ~bat
tape recorded interview that w~ cons:t.dered during'the
-cQu'rse of tbe trial in connectio_n tdth the B:ruton,.-:A,randa
problems ~e~arding Roni Howard~
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 . 2.1,64-5.

I . 2.b ...1 . . 1 Ma. -I~1iAREK: eut: wltat I am saying_, your Honor) ia --

THE OOU.f{T: l know that y,ou .knew .it also"
r. NR, KAUAite:K: Right - .
t eut what :t am ...,aying is 'tbat when thet b~v.e :aucll
S. Wide. latitude.., how do . 'W'.8.. f.knOW :what. they e,r~ go1~$ to. f oc."8
Qn 1n tl?,.e-.. p~n~lty ph'a~e_t
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1 It se~n:s to me that the law requires. an o.ffer or
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prpo.f by them., or some lti11<1 .-o.t), notice a1;1 tQ :in :what manne~
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. '' t they are goi-ng to px-oaead iso t_ha:t '!le ean ,p;i:epar~
I ft .,,. -f- I, + I
$ _-4erense,
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. :ro; '. . becaus~ the wide; w.1.d~, in;>Jtld_-:ts; th~re a.s/ !'.~I> as, penalty
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, . 12 so., it re~lly :f.s more than Just phy-{)i_eally ~a.v1ng

the mate~1ai ~ toe;, . . It i.q a matter or' some kind of. .acus .
'
And i thitl'k du,e pr~ce.ss l.lnder- the Fou~teenth Amendment
15 .qemands that tl,:e p:roseo-\.1,t;ton ind~ua.te sQme kini:l of focus
. . .
16 be.c~u:re Q.f the wi_de. lat-~t.ude on the penalty phEt,se.
l:Z TI:tE COT)-RT:. You have had months. and niont,hs to, eo-9,s;t.der
1s. . the very rea~ possibility tbat it there );t;.ere_ a .first a.eg;ree.
i1> .~~nvict;l.on.,. that eVidene~ w:ould be used. SQ~ it is .hardly
. ,' ,. } tQ
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r-m. KAtlAaEK! R,i~ht. I. agree~

22
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''.. ',l:'~. GQ.UR~: Artd if' 10~. have done nothing, abeut it,.
~a . ot oour..s,e,, that is your choice.
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f,lR. r<ANARE:K: When you say nothing, your Honor, tlia.t. is: .

THE. ,couRT: so tar :v.-ou nave- talked in general:ltie-s.

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,1. . N.ow J if .Y~U.. $.re a~riol.U!- about me.king a motion tor a

i . --continuance., then suppottt it utll s~me kind-~ a fa:c.tal .

g.
4
, . show1:,;ig which woul4 give me some bas.is upon which to rule.
. But talkinJ about it
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1n vague genel;'aliti~S a:hou.t
5 ne.edi.ns n:ore time i) doesn t-t e.ccompl~s-h -anrtoing.
MR. WlAREK t Well:, let- J'ne .speak of a w1 tn~.s.s here
named Roe-1.na.
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,8, . ' THE. COURT: Where 1

' :9, ' . MR.. WAREK: In the Bernie Crowe matter~
_ IJ:'here is- a. witnesJ;i named Rosina 'WhQ is supp0sedly
J;l ~ f'ema1~ .
1rHE- COURT~ ,Are 'We on some otber subject?
Jl4ft . KA!iAREK: No., I wo.1.\ld lik, tQ :tntel':view th;Ls
perso~.
'15 MR... KAY: Wher~ :ls s:ne 'l
l6' ,,
.' MR. BUGtiosi: I aon 1 t know ~here sht 1s,
J:1 Mlt. KANAREK: We would like: aome tim.~ to locate het-.
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,lB' Wllc:\.t I am s-ay.ng ;ls.~ your Ji'.Qnor~ they ba~ .spoken i:,t
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Hinman and Shea .. ~ have been g~i~g ove~ the. Hinman case
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20 :,ami' the Sh&~ cas.e .. They said tbey may put it ih.
21 Now they sai they ave not putting it in.
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. Sf>, all the det~il-s, the wQrk, that I have done --
2~ THE COURT: M:r.. 0rowe' s n.ame has coine up tn this case ..
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, 24 be.tore:,. too~ and you. are aware o:r tha~ ~
. l5 MR~ l.Ali:Al:mKt tes; J: agreEJ~. But What I @ say.;Lng 1s ..
!

. your HOnQr'.;; they are now telling US/,....:.. prev.iouslJ he did not .
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. ; r.epresent that he .was not -going to put oh .Hinnlan
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and. :3hea .,

.t: . BO l, Just. spent gi-eat numbe:rs ot hQUrl;i on Hinman and ehea.

And now he says he is not_goi~g to 4o ~tA
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$0, it isa denial o:t due proqes.s.. He is -now going .

ifito 4 part;ic~lar ~oint that 'ne bas indicated to the Cou~t.
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the motion ia. made . ?tn b$.d taith. ' -
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.,.,... .s: .MR . K.ANA~K: Iiiay I- aski ,WP.Y it is inade in bad: .t"a:L'bh?
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THE COURT:
#. ,f ..
a~oa~,~~.1~u
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knewabo~t thes& ~hings, ~d
Y-Qtl' haYe laiOWll libOtit :them .for 1110nth~,..
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. .N"Q)f s- Y-0\tr ar~$ht i,i..a

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ust .a -.,.;.;w-e;tgn1{ :$.r.gUTnent
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. and is il(>t, aupport;ed by antthing that would

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ii . grounds f!)l'.:. a. con~inuance :. . ' ~ _.
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You knew about the~~ th!tJlgs,,
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 21,648

3-l 1 MR.. !WWmK:

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' .~Y:a :,ottt Hon.or
1'HE COURT: l
c;:ontinuanc~.
cUD. go;i.ng .to deny the ,action for a

9 What about the defense est:bmlte: for. tbeir cate,

.....-,
6 : the. penalty .phase'l .Do you have .an.y kind of an.-e,tim.ate?.
. 'l MR-. FITZGSR.t-'\LD: tte estimate about 12. uo 15 court
' '

-~ ... 8 days.
'9 llR. BUGtlOSl: 'hat'$ three w~ek.s altuost.
10 .MR. FITZGE~Al,D:. tha~ a -tl;lree wee"ks, maybe less.
. .,, '
l:t MR. ~ITH.: A.,;e you :t.ncludit;Ig all of -us? .
.'
12 Mil. FI'tZG~Dt ~11 of u.s~

1-$... l.<EITR: Let s ma;ke that 1Q_1 then ..

1~,
. '
14, !flt., XAY; ~ Qther words, :roll. -ue .going to -take a
;J.Ji, day?
1~ MR. lEITll: l may take ,:.wa day-s. He included one
,17' .~y for -~
:, I

,, . lS-, MR.. l?ITZGE.RALD: I did 1,nclucle one: day for binl.

p 19- THE OOUR?z A:tl :ritjht. ,Anythitl8 .further~
21) MR . $VGLIOSI: Other than that I am .aghast bec~use
..
~J: :' l thtuk l<gC. .axe go:ins: to be he:,:~ for anothel;:' two .xn~nths,
" ~d that is why twas delibe:t:ate-ly -cu"ttini
22'
. . , ."'dQwn on the
. . t '
:~ peo.alty phase~ but it l~o~s 11~ T1e \~1i.ll' be p.ere p\ltting- .- .
. , ,, . , I ,

~. .titt$e1o on. tho next C~r~~~~~ ~:t~eo ~. ~tJ~ the ,pr~secutton - 1

25, iif.U. do ~1tlns pos~:t? to . elt!)e:rll,te thiil$s : ~ . '. /

26
' 84 ~itness.es -wi.th~~o~t& and f~ur t
~- . ~....... . ~

, ' ,. . '
~

.com
 ) I

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..
l: qef~nds.nt:s, Wlheard of. Right down. the hallway they have
: :~ One 'COUl'lt Of murder I one defendant,,) ios ,qitnes-Se.S
8
. . Ma. just. .sa;i.d; you we~e .8Qing to tal.(e
:FlTZGERAlJ), YotJ
4
+ '
o~e week to :put on a defense .and we aa1d ehx'ee weeks, and
.,.

Ii now you. a~e. :talking about neltt Chr:tsbnaEJ,.

I t im ~ l1UGLIOSl; l am cutting up about next Christmas,
1.
but l aay we .are going to be here ano.t~r two months,, Pa~,.
.;
. ~ . if you are. going to tal.(e three weeks, ..

!1. I ~oa 1t see how we can keep it down bEtlO'\il

1~. two lJIQtl.ths-: a' week for us, three -weeks for you, a.x-gQm.ent .. -
. ' .
n Ma.. FIXZGERALb:. 'That is J>~ob~bly ~ccurat.e., p1:ob{:lbly
12 ttcau.rute.
18' , BUGLtOSI: :t wu 'no,t ~itictzing,. I
~. a.to. j.u:st. sayiug
tit )le will be ber.e another two months~'

1$.. UllldU:It: In the posture of t11is .ca:se: 6 why -don- t

I

yo\.l just let this so to 1:i:.fe itl.p1:i~omnent, lfr. Bugli-osi~ ' I'

be /
l2R-. l<AY: Doos this have to on the record? ""
18 Mn. KANAREK:.
, 1 think the State- of Cal:t.forn:l.a h.as I
, I
.,
. ,, 19
' 1 I

gotten its _pound of flesh, and. hao totten its wh~tever ;ln I
20 this ca(;e.
,.... 1
t

.. ' '
21 tllt!. COUllT~ .Anything further, eentlemen? .i
-22
(No resp~nae. )-
. ~

'23
Very '.well, al\l soon its t-ha.Y, a~e i-eady :L,:,. q:ourt.
24 ;, ' I

w-e --will proceed~ ,. ,. ..i

25 :

, MR.
Do you intend
BUGLIOSt:
. ' 1

.to -.ke ~-i:Qpening statement?
'
N01 I
I

~ ~

:
. . *
t.
.

.
,. 'r

-, "
 l TB;E' COURT: You will be -ready t-o catl your ftist
.,.

.
2

3
w:t.tness.
lncidenta.1ly., I do haw~. to recess early today .
- . ,i
' . '

l have' to ~tl;ld a me~t;i:ng of the. ~xec\lti.ve c.ommi~tee of

' ' .;

s the cpu~e . - it sta.):t$ at 4:-00 o' cl~~k.. and I have to be

'(} I
there, un~ortunately so~
7 I .am ~oing t.o z-ecess at a qt,tarter to 4 :. 00.
.s. : /lXe you going to .call RoQi Howard today.,.
MR, sarN?.i:
9 llr .llugia.osiS
10 _ . MR. ''nuGLlOSI;- 'Well, prQbably not~ no, p~obahly not
bt!o~use it seems t<> me we will be. with Ci:-owe most of the
: 12. 1
day.
' '
ia My di:tect won t be to0 long, but l, imagine
14' . Mr. Kanare~ -will want t.o examiqc in depth,., It is -1,ntetty
15-,
itnport;c:mt; ~.
16 ' If we get thtough with -Orowe today, then I
wilt get into the Hinman maetert c~ll 'the Coronet and the
. '
18
officer who atrivad at the scene i!lnd ptobably Roni liowaxd

20, , }lll. 'Kl'..NAREK: Your Bonar, i t may:,

21 Fi;r~t of all, I would li.ke to tnake this
".2,2 ., c~ent on the tecord.:
~ YQur Hano~ bas accus~d me-of bad faith in
~4 : . ~6nnec-tion 'With this motion~ . l 'Would like .to _.,...
..
' -
.,
. - '

THE .CQURT:- Hell, I said t:h?t it appeared to be

26 brought in bad fa-ith, Eline.e the thing$
- :r
that
, '
you- ~laim nt'rtf
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!
i.'
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.ii I <f
,4 "' ,;
 .- . ~ - i' ' .. - ' - , . ---, -. - - . -

.. ii~65l , '

\ 'I 1 ', ', ',. 1" I t

. i as .a basis for a motion.for~ continu-e.nce wer~ known tci

~:
\
,,,
you a J]lonth ago
MR. .. J.(ANABEK:
kn~wn. in view of M,:. Bugl,tosis . -- .
,Que:ty as to whether they were completely

5 ,, . Your Hono~ has not even reacl Mr. Bugl:tosi:1 s ....

6 tBE. COt.JlT: ! dqn1 t ear.e t:o ptolons it, Mr. Kan.arek.1
:1 :, if y.i,u are mt in bad faith, yol,'J, ~re not in bad faith.
' ' ... .;.,,. :ll i.m., 'KANAREK: I l'tould like to show the Court I am
9 riot itt b'a'd. faith.
10 ltas your Honor.~ead the. stat~ent att~ibuted
. .
. .
'

11 tQ- Mt. (b:o-we, the inte~viw which Mr. Bugliosi gave me

'
.. '

. .12~ . ye.8te1=day? .
113 . THE COURT t -that is .nQt the p0int" The point is you

~'4,:.

15
k~ew: abQUt M'r .. Crowe. and the incident; and the in:Jform.ation
was av.ai.labJ.e to you..,
1~- .: HR.. KANA:'R}::K-t That I s right, but -we :niade c;t1scov.ery as
..11 , to statements~ your Honor --
,
-1s Tl$ cotm.T: t dot't't want tQ pr.along :l.t:;. ~- Katta'tek.

..
,
1.9 Mlt. KANAREK: May I make this . >re.quest to the Oo"xt
2Q then ......
' ....
2i s GOUR'!: No --
. .
,,
22 MR. 'KAllAREKJ 'this- is to -save time in court. a11,d not
_ma~e. obJe.ct:I.ons in f:ront 0 fhe j-UX'y.
I. would $sk youi aonor for a contintting. '

- ,2s .. objection as eo Mr. G~owe on due p,:qt:.ess under the. 14th

2!i : ... Amendm.ent~ on "th grounds tb:at the p,:~judioial value far
 ' I ~ ' '
- # ~ 1

,_
1 :: . ,Qqtweighs any probative va.1u~ ~o.r the -~t>.alty phaae as '
far .as all of Mr.. Ctowe' s tes.timony and ~s fat: as a-11 ,

.
2.

3 '
'~
',

of Roni llowardt $ testimony.

I ~ ~ I \ '

It I have .~hat continuing. objection .on the

5

:I p~ejudicial value far outwetghing the probative va1Qe,
,.,
6, then 'i wont have to make that' q-bjeetion before the j.1tt,y.
~
' .
7 -THE COURT: I $U not gofrl$ to. gran"I?,. any st1ch .
8 continuing .objection., You: will. ha\Ye to niake your objec-
3a :ts. 9 . tioxia,.
10

l2 '

13

14:
. '

16- :,
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.J:/ .:

, 18, ';

i?- .

...,,
,.,
~l'. .
...
7
22

~~

:~4 \ .

; ~i, '.
 1
I

op what tthe prtisecut:!.on has euggest,ed as to ''Mr~ c,x;owe and

. .
3. the incident con~erning ~:lJ;' . Crowe when Nr t M~son allegedly
::;hot Hr'. ci;;owe, I waintain that b.v1ng1ng_ t.h:t:s up before the
jury in the penalty phase is a violatiop o~ the due proce~s
.6 und,et' th~ Fourteenth, Anena.1;:.cmt and the equal p~otec.t:;1.oh --
1 'l1I:IE COUft."2: How can. l ruJ.-e on it? I haven I t heard the
~ , r I I I l') - '

ev!dence. I d"On 't }:now what he is _going to aay"'

9, . _ You are p~en:ature. flake your motions -arid obJ ectionf?, as we
10: proceed, Mr. Kanarek.
-1' \ ..,,,
J1 .. MR. lrAI:fl+t-illK: OJcay ..
'.

,.,.,
..
12

l:S
14,:
(The tollowine; proce~d.ine.s were had in -open court
> .., '

.. in the ,p,res!$i1ce' of all, ~oun~e;L w~t~ te e,e'cep~1,9n,_ -qf

1-!r-. 1Iu;1hes, all de-f'endantn.
.
The jury
t

ia not p~e&ent:)
' j

' .

. . J5
16 . The jury is not pre.s~nt. .
' "j '
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17 You had som~th1ng you wish tb take up, Mr_,.

. 18 Fit~gerald
; 1$i : MR. FlTiGERALD: -Yes, if the Cou~t please. . I nave one
,ir.'

~o- Il'lOtion on pehal:t o:f Patri-cia. Krenwinkei solely, t-ben, an

... 21 obj-~ation_ concern:t:g tbe -0ot.tstitutional.ity of the penalty
,22 phase of the trial to pe .made on behalf of all the d.et'endant
23 Then I w~s Just inf.or.med that Mr; Manson would
24 request permia.sion to- a<;:tdress the Court tor the purpose_,
25 '. . mald.ng a motion.
-26 '.I'he motion I hav~ n behalf ot Fatr1c~a Krenwinkel
 .... 21.,654
,,._.---,

~
.
;
, _ ~). ,,. "- .,., ' i ~ ~,: 'J ., Jr ,~ 1 ,, :- .; ' :i-

1 iS pu~$Uant to ?~n&.l , Cod~ .Se:4t1on l0~6"

! ,.i:, :
t- w:oq,ld ~at this
''i t:1me at:ik \eave. of 'tne C9urt: to- en:ter a n~.w _and additional
I , ef r., I '/\ I
, .:j, ..} L '1 i,_ , ; ,._I

s plea ti f tlbt - guilty bf~. r~a:~ on qi' ',insca.n:t ty ~ . ' , ;

.;tn tht; ever.rt tllp.t motion is d~n:teQ-; J: would prt--
- -

~
I I .,_ ~
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c:eed with ti'le other n:ot,;t.on::. 'in cormectio,n' with the

.constitut~(onnlity .oi' the .death penalty.
-..
-_

7 ThE CO.UR?~ J?o .:1ou ,wiLih to ar(;Ui:: 'Glie r:.ot!ons?

8 IlR.~ FITZGERALD: t~ell,, to b~ candid with the Court I
.9 was certai:nl~t awa.re that ur.. der n:.os.J(; c.ircui:;;istances, and
10 certainly ,ordin&.ril:, q. pl~a or not cuilty by J?eason of
insanity should ~e inter~osed at tne. tiue plea is entered,
12_
and certairtlj i:f it is. not entered c.t the time or: pl.ea,. it
ta should be ent'C:red a.:; soon a,;;; pos..s'ible thereafter., and
certa'inly 'Vii th all ciue hazt-3; partioult.rly :).n advance of
. tna.1., and. it. is a Vf:ry unusual r.:?q,uc,:nt to lnake sucn a
reg.uest. at .s~ch i'1. iate date.
'1.:7 I might indicate to the Court that Miss Kren-
JB winkel ;lo not o;f' the Smte opin:l.on.,. obVio1,1sly ~ but I think
tha-t in er.H:Brlco l :r:,2.dc tl tc.ct:Lcal d.ee:is.ion in advance of
20
. ,.. trial, at1,d i.t, was ;perhapc an 1~rl:"dna-ous de9is-ion ..
21 l felt ,tactically and strategic~l1y that a plea
' 22'
of not su;ilty b:, zi:ea~:ron of' insanity~ or to ititerp-9se, :r-or
thot matter~ oven a d:tminiahe.4 c.ap;;lcity defense, woul.d p.e
in .th.fl natur'e of a c'Onfe.s sion, and o.voidanc.e defenee, that
I- 25
in e~sence l?atric.ia f.re:nwin:ki?l would be admitt:ing the
. .
, 26
defense.a- by interposing such a plea~ based on- mental
'\ illness or mentai. aberration~ and I chQse therefQ~e not to
\.
 1 ~nte~ a plen of .no.t- guil-ty by re~son () in:sanitY ..
' .
2,
~ Ho.~-:;
"1, "
\101.f~ver, tbe s-ituatio n has chaogec:1 remarka bly.
, A., ~. ""~
~
-. 1 , , ;'
..it- ( ' l ' .. .,, .. ,/ ~ ,:
,
- '
Jr . Tht: def'end~ 1t K.i"enw:lttkel .s-e.8.lld~, C'?riVic~ecl o-r
' . . ~ ~ ~

,4' , .seven count~ of firnt-de_ sro.;; :rau~i:;ler and one count op

, . ' ,
I
5
oons.pira oy to . comm1 ii 1a.u:i:de _1", ._
-6
A~ this tir:r.:1 I ~t~i~.i:k, t.Ft~y p. ~~Y., :~e,fore they
r~

.
,,
7
L

determin e whvt;h0~ ::ihe ouc;.ht to die 1 ,ousbt to J;>e f.ully

f "', I ' : ~ ' ~ l ' ~ t!. ' I

r;:
,8
l and adeq-t).atel:.r ap.praise .d or any mental ~or~d.ition that
; may have affpcted the corri:~iss.tcn o,f the c:rimez
''ld I v.m not u-drdtt!tnc on h0r behelf tu~ commis.s.:1.on
'
11 , of any otf~nses ! but. the verc!iet st.ands as' it has Qeen
112
Tendere d.
\
~

,e.. .;ii, ...... ...,.g-oc1it" or

_I' thi1,1~r alo.o
iii'nocP-~cc..~:ori,sod ."on t:he c:t2.1cumstances and th~- facts
tllo.t the jur1 was ab1e to adju~+fa .te

~ ~-
,, 1;5 ~---' ....
preS'~~t en to tb.~m t , C*c ,-..,;
.,.,,._ \. ~--, ... ~. i-t-,_
16 , I dc-n it --~e-e ,wJle:!'o~ 1:tny prJcjud:LJJe r1oulo. inurQ ei th:er

"i.
it
.;_ b- .. ~-
't6 the }?eople er
- - ~' ~. ..
to ''t~~ :..J:tU>; 1 ts.:ili" befo:.;,e \'le b,egirt 'th~' .
... .), ........ ~ .~ ~
'--.... ..... ht~.. ~~-' ~
.lB penaltt pnase"~:sour !:rono~ ~co~la appoint ..P:JYCi:.1.1a.tris.-c::i an(l
~. ..-'i.'- 1, . ---.. ~: .. I':"..., , .. 4~-4o-\c .. , a '

il .;~,._;;;19. : ~~~~- ~ocee d with-~ ,not..~~J-}.:r..-r.-15y::re~30:i:l o:r. insa~:J,..ty

' -- ' ,'t!(.. ' - . ' ' '
-2,0 pha~t( &'t""iib.e' t):'10J1 'a,s tb-~o..t.fi~ a:-::t'.i!'i!' ffi1ink8l
.:fi:.,, ~~ . ,_ . ' "". -- ~ , ~-.s;-_;?7_. --~--- :.. .. ,
, .'-, 2:i: 1 Nor,~ of the <;>th~~ ~ndatlt' ~-wtll join in suoh. a
; ', .: 22 .ple~.? 1$--;~~:~~e>rs-t;u~~~~; 1"tt, -:~;ill be -~~'ol.3, tively $llo:t>t
' .: ~ " f

to Patr1c.1e. ,_Kt>~ti'Wink~l;
.. ' .."'

\ 23 , .'"' matteit as.

\ __.,.-:.,,:""~, ~ --.. -r~~~~ ~ ... ,v

M Ip the ev$nt t~- pz:.r-c?+ia:trtota :tn a. very sho.t't

."...;:_.;_. :. ?5 . fashion d.ete.rmine_ that ,~l}e JH~~e~ thon we can immedia tely ~1-
prQceed with the penalty ph~se. of th~ t.l:"ial_.
,. ... ,~
 ----- .------ ------ ---.

21,-656

...- r,IR .. BUG.LIOSl:

reac hed thi s new dete~m1n~t~on.
'
::t am
.
inte:re.s:~ed in when li'lr, Fit~ get ald

J
.

Nwnber ~:m~., <iv.en a.t. any time aft er the v.erc

-,
'I. ...
I
'
li:ct 1s
}

. much too., ta~ ~tte 1f" th~ b-el l l'l.as already l;le~
'

'5 n rung~ "'''!t - ~ !. .... ~

6 .....:.But I am. w()ndtiring -w1:1;y,' i~s t be'to~e-, we ':-all t'he

'~ I: It- ' ~ ' - ..
i . ti~ at witneas to tpew1tn~ss sta~ d he iij
no~ ente.r4~~ this
,.

' '.- & : ple

' -I
' ! ~ ~
. a
I - fl ' ', ' : I '

, .
: ', !

~'
I'

' .
I '

. ,.. ' ,

~ . '
~
t

,1 "" ,1 : ~
:
Th~ jury came bac k.~i ~h. the1 ~ ve.r ~ct a cou
r

l
-
ple of ,~ I I / f \ :~ 1 '
IO , day.s ago,, I~ is~.ems t-o nie at that time. wou '

ld ~ave bee n not

. l'l: the p~ot>er- time' . . . . e."!jen. th.ta. would hav e b.een -too late ...- but ,

.
iC it ~er e goin g to be made at all it seeme
1 to me .it sho uld
hav e 'be.Etn made afte r the ver.d1c:t .ca,DJ.e in- ..,
not five seoonds
... , .
14 bet..i-e we cal l our firs t wit ness to tlte utan.cl at the
'

pen altJ ::
15- . tria l,.
ihe Peo ple ts p:os 1t.io n, .;your, liono:r. _.,. is tba t
.

. ' '
\tn4er
. 17 exi stin g law Mr. :Vit zge rald ' a -mot:1-<>n and ple a
1s tar too
-18 bel ated -

.,. 19: Howe:ver., in. vi-~w ot the e.xt~entely .-se riou s .nat
ure
,
2f>
' ~ 1-

ot this ' new plea ., it seems to m~ tha t we sho uld ~eti ,re
to
21 ham1;>ers a.nd e21l.attst1ve-ly- re'Vi.ew the law on
:this. su'bj:-ect.
-~ l don 't thin k the Court sho uld cav alie rly r~le
.
one war. ~r
.
2a the- oth ~r at tb1 s par ticu lar moment.
..24 I thin k botll- s1des alloul_d ~es earc h thi: s are
a in
,:5 dep th be-f~,a--. ~ne Oouxt.t ~ule~. . . , .-----~--
.
.''26 THE COURT:< We ll, l want to i.nake 3-ure fi:r ~t tha t

'
,_ __ ,... .,.~ --- -~- -.,. --- '--- :"'"

___,_ .....
7-Ciek>Dm
~
. ,a;;
le~~ iui,.com~ - --:-:- ~ -:'7_.1. -~-
iii'"
'
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 21:.657
......... ~,
~
;~r, Fitz;l;}rttld stated. all bi'" tha raa.3ons and are;uments
p ....,..., ~ "

i
... , ........... ~-~

hc:s in~iuppd~t- o-t' that motion ..

;,-----,
' '
2 : that he
I
I
-. . .a.,. ri1R. ltI~ZQEllALD; i will su'bridt the lll~ttex-.
I: 4. :

....
1!.
. I .ta~,e j. t. non0 or the othe,: defendants are- j oini~g
';;
Q'. in that?
I
7
.-
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f

, ,, ..
. ........ , . ...
' ~ , . ' '
9 ' 1,-;..1,. KEITU: Correot.
' ' ...
'
f,. ' .. .. t \

iO., ?IR. FITZGERALD: ti'h11t

~
j.,e
'
ey .unde:rs;ati~inig -.. : '( .
,r ,4 : ,' k I ~ < ,t -I

'ji- !m f KAU:ii.B.EK = Ue- a;,e not Jo1n1ng, ;1our Honor.

' r '" ' .~ ~ t~ ""
12 na. SHitmt \1; are no~ j,oinihs.,. your Honer, Miss
1~ Atkins i$ not jon1n~ 1n that reotion.
14 THE OOURT: All r1~ht: we ~111 take a b~ief retes~ then
.15. and I wil-1 c-ee counsel ~n ehambero Wl;l.~le we disous1;1 this .
' I I '

16- , . matter.,
i7 :m .. FIT.Z'GERAL!): Miss Krenwink;el., it' the Court
.
1"8 please~~ I vould reque~t that ail the det~naa:nts b~

~
. 19.- . pres~nt., but o~rtaitily Mi-s.s Kren\<~rtkel_ J: did not contul~
''20: with r,!:f.ss Krenwinkel -a.bQU-t the entry of such a ple~, and I
/
...
~
~); ean heal' h~r be-hind n.ie, and she ~s .not in aocOlfd w:t th my
1' !ii. ' .
:, _ ~~- ;, repre~entat:ton.s to the .Oou~t,.
2~ :;r think in her be.st interests s-he ought to. be
_24. present-.

- 2S. !'BE -OOURT:

and you .ai-e ftpeak:li'lg
Welli you. are he;- lawier~ I1r. Fitzgerald,
ror her -aa long as you a~e he-r co~sel .... -- -
 i I ,:;ill see 'counsel :t.n ,chambers.
(Tho--, f ollow:tnr:; pz,ooeedings. wel:'e had in the
'
---- ~
.
' ' '
chamberl} or the Court, out or the he.arina and pt>es<tmce o-r thE_

4 : Jury and the defend$.hto ;-; all counsel n:t~th the exaeptj.on ot
s ~. Hue:bes be:!.n-3 r.:resent:)

6. ' THE 00URT1 we w;lll 30 off. the record.

(Oft the record discussion.)
4
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19

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26
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CieloOrive.com
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' 4-l 1 MR" '.B'UGLios:i:: The Peopl~ -: move, to :have all ~he :
2 :Pe<;>p1e s exhibits introduced ii;1.to evid/;!ncfl ,dt;1ring. the ' '
' I

3
~ I "".,I

4 ; think ths:tt motion bas t;o b~; ms:de. : _. 'f. 1

5 THE COUl{T: You m~cm, your previously (lcbitted

exhibits?

b$. BU~IOSI: Right. May they be adin$tted again1
S :
1HE COURt.: lf you. hav~ . any ~xhibit in the penalty
9 _phase, I aI/l. going to sta~t the ntJ.tnber~ng ovet ag~itl and
10 pr.Etcede -it with the letter P, So there wont be any
Jl confusion with :the ot:het exhibits;
MR.. BUGLIOS!; ln other words, Feople s P- l? .

'13 '' THE COURT: Yes. P-1 and P~Z, etcetera

14 '
M:11' BUGLIOSI: We ~Ii going to use People's 40,
15 or instance~ and maybea few ?ther sxhibits~ But even
if 'we. dont u.se many,. the ju:r:y, of course, is entitled,
17 du.ting their del$be:tation,s, to consider ~11 of the.s~
18 ,e:xhtbits :!ntr9duced
' .during, the
.
penalty t;rtal .
-~ 19 '?HE C!0UR1': Does a~yone hav~ ~ny o'f:)Jection ,to that?
;!O , !iR. FITZGERALD: My un(ler,stand;i.rtg of the law is _
. '
that they are going, t~l be inst,:ucted that tbe.y can cQ~sicler
.
,. . '

':22 a~ything at guilt. I think he is simply doing this out of

,-.~
23" ~n abundnnce of ~aution~ I think it ia dpne by ope~ation
of ,iaw- nl,;eady ...
25 lBE COU'Rt: they :Will be receiv~d, the same .exhibits
26 tha~ have heretofo~e been reeived.
 2~,66Q
' 1 .
' l
the ~efendant~ wanttl.ieb exhibits reqeive47

..
4... 2 Do ' , '; . '
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MR. FrEZGEllALD: Pl~ast:t~~ j : .: .: '

' '-2 ~ .. ,' I ., ,
-
Tim COURT; I
The defehie:' e=ibitfl
j; beri:!tO"fore.
,~ I .
'
r-e.c.~ived
- '
,, ... ,,. .. f .!. 1 t .
will also be. :received for the P~P:ose pf the penaltt .triat..
' :UR 4- lITZOEBALD !
I
would you t~a t ._
un~. (ldv-$.seoient
0 o, -l, ,/' ~ .. +
rt,.y l ,j,
:
"
I
J

request that :you appoint dooto~s!/ - ;

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1,
Would YQU 'thil'llt about that inesp~d:ive ~f'.' . ' '..'
.. .BY no~-gui~ty-by-~eaaono~-inBaxu,ty ple~s?
" 8,

9 .
s COUR~: You .m.ean, on the subject of ""
_1, '
MR~ FITZGERAL: ~ight ~ mitigating circw;nstances of
10, .
petia:1:t:y, mental $tate ..
H
. ~ C:OUR.t: F'f?r .the purpose of 'having theIJl testify

~s ;.
on the p~~atty plta.~e!

1 '
15. , .
t.esEify .
- FITZGERALD: . 'Ho:c:- the purpose of 'hav.i:ng t;heqi

: Wellt to- exami~ them tu.st, and t wiU piake

acteeision later whether they ~h.Ould ~estify.
'1;7 I , ' I '

THE -COUJ.tT: I mean, that' 1:-s what you would: cont~plate.

', 18

.,, ,19.
but at,l~ast it is a poS$ibilityt

20 '
?,ft. Fl'tZGERALD: Right.
Ox just think about it. You. d@ 1 t have -to rule
'21 .,

: '23' :'
now,
' ,
't.tm. ~OURT~- Ex$ine th~ for 'What purpose? How?
Wb.ati would pe the scope o~ the e8JJlination1

25

. 26- <
. MQ. FITZGERALJ>: To detem.:J.n.e wbethiJ!r she is
.
medieatly ilt'by medical standards
'
 . 21.661

4-3 l I just: want $Otne sott of a mental ptof:tle for

2 the jury in the event that it is appa.i:~nt.

is ,a
tflE.. COE-:t':
;'

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11-

.g~neral psychiatric e~aifneti0n, and let the chips

'

What y6u . a~e taJk,ing aboutj l thinl.t,

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5 fa{l whe~e they may. , ,

6 l,jlt. FITZGERALD: Right., Let the .:chips fall where .
'' 7 they. may. .
, .'
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THE {JOCJR;T: . Without any reference. : J
to iillY speQ:i,.f:Lc
,' ~ ~ ' ~ : I ,!' ~ ;\: 1 { ,.
9:

IQ. I don't want to make it look likesanity or

anything.
}(R~ k"'lTZ.GE.R.AtD.: No.. I am nc:t suggesting th~t it is
4a fls.. 13 a, eanity hearing.
:.,- l4

'. J.fr

18

20
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21

26 ',

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 ' ' '

THE COURT.; t th:tnk if the Cou~t -appoints one OJ

e: 2,

s
more psychiatris1:s, they .shold make: tt general examination
.of her and $imply re.port, :tf yol,1 want them. to,. their
4 findings~, . ,-
,. ~ ~ '

s ?-JR.. FlTZGE~D: 'Ri*h~..

. ~. t "
~ ' ' I " ~
-6. Tim COURT: Without.' ~Y 1litnitation..... as to the
. '

. ' ,

-..
1 , .pa:tt.ticular ar~as. '

' ~ ., '
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~
8 Ma. BUGL!OSIJ :th~ir ;fa.ndingS'i as. ?fr. K.ay b~ought ' '
?
. ,. . .. ,
'

and,,
I -llit,,., ........ __ ._ ~- --~ - - - - - - ..- -

9 out,, 'might be that. she :ts insane :in essence, 1:we are,
__....-:;;--.-' ' '

to alnto$t h~vilig an insanity trial.. I t ' ~

l" '
":. '
-:.

It They m::tgnt c-ome 1;,ac~ $.nd say that, you.. know,.'

i2 MR. FI'J:ZGERAt,!):~ . W-~11, fn .th~ ;event we reach t'4ab .

-
'
'
',,

'
'
13

~s.
poit; .! wouldn t
i-$: ru.ie<l' in~clmissible.
attempt. to put -on that evidence., if it

Well, on the other band, why -isn t it admissi

16 b1e'l
11 , Y~u knowi it it not a defense,..but .:lt is
1s oeiftain1y one o:f the things. that the j ur.y can tak~ .into
19 consid~r.at'ion in. atne1i.Qtation o.f thE! Qffense:,. that she wa$
20 crazy o;; insane ~f:. the time .
~
..
.21 THE.-COl}RT! -Or now-
:22 .MR~- FITZGF.:RAl.D: Yes. OJ: now ..
. 2.a ' .Ali,o,. in the event that .your Honor is :tnc1ined
.2~ to appdin~ ehe doctors, I would 'likf;! it to be pursuant to-
. '
25 Eyidence. Code 1017, ~nd al~o perhapa. Sections 950 th~ql,1.$h
. .
' 26 . 9$~, et seq,.

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 21 663
..
.1 those s~ct:tons of .the Evidence Gode relate to
' '

2, ,conf;t.tle~tial.ity. I wou-1 t lik~ to haite the .proseout:f..o.n

/3 receive n .copy. of tb.e r~port until such time as .I J?ro:cfe-red
4 the -evidence, a.t whicb time, ot cqurse., they a:re ~nt'it1ed
I
5, to.a Copy-.
6
,,
'!',
7,
. .
not l,.1-b
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"'I" ;, ~ ,. .
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. 8 ~HE COURT: On tlte '~tbe~ -hand,. why shouldp:'* t they,.
-~ ' '-I: ~-~ , .... ,; .... .,... .,.
g if -~e Oourt is a.ppc;,inting the ps,ychiat.ri.sts? We -&~e ~o- ,
- I ,I ' ,- 1 ' I

,,,
10 ,,
,,
longer talk;tng about gilt.
......
.,.
,'
... ...
I- ..
,J
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11 MR, KA!: Your Hon.or_. l sympathiz wil=~ Mr .. :
Fi.ttgerald s position, but l . wonder if it
. is . l!e~11:,Y .. '

-.
' .. ' I

13 ' proper for the Co.urt ~O _ appoint a psychiatrist fat a

private attorney.
mean,
1 Ml'~ lit~gerald was still in.th~
Io P..ubtic Dei@ders office, I c~uld -~derstand his:expendi-
:J.ri ture of CoUt'J.ty monies fqr the p.sychiatriGts, but aa ..a :
. . '

:1,s . , . pri.,v.ate: attorney, I Just: .question whethe:t that :ts ,:eally

- . . '

,l? proper.
~Q fflt,. BUGLl.OSI: I tend t.o --.disagree... From a 'fJtriat1y
2i . legal. Stt;1nclpoint. . Bu~ I think Mr~ Flt:~geraldt s personal
2Z- : ' '
I '
:ntonet;.ary 'sacrifice has been enormous in this case.
f ' f
l
,t

~ : MR-. KAY: No doubt. - . , ; ,

_BUG:LIOSI: And- 1 th:i.'nk -su'bs.t:an~ver te:chnic~lit.y.

:-
'M ~,..
' 1 -sii~u""1,i' p~e~:if;,; . --.. --- . ~ . - .~- ~ --.--,
--.. ~~ ~ ~

''
20 TKE COUR'J:: The. Cgurt can appoint an .expert if. it

. '
- ~--~~ -
 - ...

1 deems :i;t n~cessary or desirabl... Ti;le q_uestion is whether

':.; .2

3
. t ~em it .necessaz-y or desirable .
. MR . BUGl:,IOSI,:
<
Yes. ;
4 If the Court thinka_it i~ a valid motion of
s ?,fr. Fitzgex-~ld, I think it shouid be at County expense ..
. .
"6' :re WQuld be an unrerili~tic bu:t!den on b:i.tn to
~
. ' l ', ..,

4b ~1~ .. 7 have him pay it .out of his own pocket.

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 _2~.,665

1 THE COURT. I can ~ee no~_ :e~~...~S1.- ~o -t;urn a penalty pb~se

into some kind o~ ~ d~m1nishe~ aapacity pr~oeedig at tne
3 request of the d~.:rendant., unless there d.ij SOf4e. kind of a
. 4 .showing~-
5 Again-., there is nothing. There ;l.a nothing in th.is
reoo-r.d.., nothing t~at th-3 Court beta seen, th.at wo.uld ind1oate ..
. 1 ... that .-any- o;f' thetie defendants has any mental. illne:si' any
' 4- '

d~m1n1shed.eapaoitJ 1 any ;nsan1ty is. now pr~aent or was

. . . , ..
.' .
9 .. . .Pll-es.ent' at "the ttme ot the c.rini~ .. Nothing
I ' ' I '

..
.IQ l~. XE:C~H~ The Oo~;rb isn't . saying :that teattmony trom
' ; lf. a p-~ych~atrist ct>naer.ning the character and. pet"soAAlity o.f
L'

' ' . . .
one <>:f the defendant~ WOl.\ld be i~adm1se:1.1.,1e i 1s it?
J;a inm OOURT: NO.-
MR. lml'l'.H: That would'be all impo:rtant, it would seem
to xne ~ in the penalty phase. .
THE COURT: lio. But l don't tbtnk 1~ 1Q something
lt :that the; c~urt has. to, on 'its. own, a~it"ange tor,.
l.8. ~be detendE,\ntS are per:e~ct..ly capable of' gett-i~g
. . .
... :i9 ~.ersonality and character. witnesses- in it the_y want. to.
20: MR. auGLIOSI: Unless the~e is some legal ~how~~g ~lrea f
......
2r . . ~n ~he re..ord ,. and then I think the Court could make that
,. appointment. But 1n the absence ot'a legal showing,-I
. . .
. .
23 don't think th~t the Courb ~~ .open up this. barrel ot wormf.
- II' '\.
,I ~

24 I~.. K$ITH: I ..Jlif\'t .wa~ted to Jnak.e it elea:,:. tha.t. we

1
.. ;I '

. - ~5, .; ~re not ta:J;,lting' ~p.:out acUnf;as:tl:0-it-;v bu,t we are tal.14ng tbo-u.t
I r '
' ' t ,,... r -11, '.t ''; 1' j_ I' > ' .,~ '# I '!

. [26 . th~ p-~-OP;t1iet;y of a QOU~t _f.P~Oii~~~t,. ,.,

t - ' ~ ., ;:'''; -~"
, -'l1HE c.QURT: That"s -~1e;ht. . ., .
" of' : ,: t
.com'
t -Iii I ,I,. /, .. M l

r f ; J,1 .~
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C i e l o D r h , e "

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 " f;IR. FITZGE.RALD ,: 'ftnothell p,tOblem is this
'' ~I ,
Basicallf ~
x- don 1 t ha.ve a tretnendous ~ount, of' confideno.e in aome Qf .

:. ~ :<panel.
tbe pay-c.h1at:r1sta that are available on th~_ Superior .co~t
f'

I alll autie yo\lr Hon()r-)iis h.~ard that be--tor.e,

i ,', i~ < -~~ ~ - "'I"

5:. on the other hand, in the-eve~t the cou~t~ap~oint&

p$ychiat~1St$ come up With lnaterial
.... '
that~, t'avor~bl.e for
. '' ' - '

'~ a def'endant, and as an attorney JOU pu-t tba.t P~tcbiat;rj,st

.B - on tne stand.,_ tbey se:ll much,. much bett.e:tl to jurori because

' t ' ',

they ql'e inde-pendent ps;rct,.iatria,ts who are on the panel;,

who~ y~u know$. exam;l:ne n\lmbers. o,t peopl~ ~ and so on.~ ~n4 so
' 11, forth\ .
' t .

12 . :When. y.ou' brJ.~g- in. o-qtside paid paycbiatriata,

' ' ,' ' ' ' ' \ ,,
~etained psy-oh:lat~i$ti ~ people:, by and: la.pge ...... and -:i: tl1ink

- ,J,~ '
~ I , .. A. I

14 .
juovs - .... .
a.f Jie~st some
i '
jurors.
.
. .;.,_ .~e.el that you have
'
bo~~
15 . their .
test.111\~ny and tlr~t. ~Pflych1ata-itrt~:-w:1l.l. t~st~ify.
' !,- ~ ' _.1 t I r ~
Qn a.ny

' ~~ ' . side -or 'the iss~e. ~~ $~ f~~- ..., ' ~ ~ ' ' ;, :
l.ii.'.::~ . T~ C:U.RT1 . Well, ~1 _js~ ~~P.tt i-$ee any -neatU1t;v tor
.i~ th~qo~t 1.~ ~his . ~~~~e tf~to;nt .P,Sf'~Ji~~~~'. :x~e~ts_i
~ .
19 ~~f
' ~
the.re ya~s_tfiing.; som~
',1: /\, ..~, '
e'Y'idenc.e, sopie
'
showiLng, - aome fidi.l,ht.h~t~ ,,'aQe~-~ld po:tnt to that wo.w.d 1

i11di11~te ~!la.1'. l;J~jJla~~~)!~trJ.d sollieir~,i ~~"-' -

Q
neceil'.aar.y .9:r, fieai~.a.bl'l
' -
becfl~'\:-. '7.,.,t,
MR. JrIIJ!ZGERALli:' All. ~1e1have, Judge, is the prof;leeution S. :
.
' ' . ' , .
.
. ~
;
evidence; the p:r-ofl.eQu:~,itm'~ t4eory., the bi.z.arre nai;t.ir~ -ot.
0 ' i' I I ./""

the offenses themselve,. 1me. s:ro.~$ overkill involved .

-~~...~ --...;...__.,-._, .

I don't know th~t m,.Qst of Mr~ ~glioai'~

.. f_ ,_,. "I"
 -1-

' 2~ ,. oo'/ . .'

-1 adjectives are appr.Q.pI?j,ate.; _b,1,l.t -even .1.f some ot tllem .a:re.,

4
this is_ a higly unus1,1al:i Pf.!:O.Uli_ar and bi.zarre s-ituat-ion.
But that is it ..
)
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. . . 9. :.

10 . ',

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l7-

18

19.
?,

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 21 .. 668
4c....1 1 ,, U COURT, We see many ,orimes of that nature.

- ,2

3,
Well~ I am not ~aing to appoint doctors>
and I a,n. no.t' going to 4llow t~e plea.
_ l will make that stateuient ~n the record.
, '

l-fR; BUGLIOS!: we are c,n th~ t~cord. - ... ~-

IJ,
~ COURT:
. ~
I know~ . -:~ .. - "-~~~- -_. '

";" .,.---,,---
!'

t.
8
in
''f
1-m..:, FlTZGER!Ll): l'ou probably had better c;lent., i-q . :;--".':<~
O'pe,n ~~U~t !i 9%''. b:ri.ng iny ~aitnt in b,f:!r~~
' ,.
.- . ;;
~

THE COURT: ?lli~:,i,pu...:wiii. want to lilB.ke you:r m:o_t.~9.~?

,- ~ ' ~
tr: -:
___.!".~--/... -"
:9 .

1-$. ltITZGERALJ)1 tes. lt _is about ~i~ ~p.v~n -

' \ Ir~ - .,. '
mtuutes long. , .' .: ., , r
v . .,. ' .l .. . . . ._ .-..a-;,,:.:~
~it~. 'bting ~
,,

.Tl$ COURT: Then we the j.u:ty aft.ei: .

' . ' ~ ~ ...
that.
..,,
- '
', r ..,._
13 ,
I
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MR. KA!:. I thil'lk 1-{r!' Man,aon has: a 1110t:ion" too
T!iE ,COURT: "'What dcie1:1 he- WMt( r \ >:
1.6' ', ,M:R FtTZGElW:,D..; ;c un(.{ers:tand his 'rto~:f.on is -in. the
. ' ' . ' f ' ' ',
< ,,
+ :~.
. ..ti:;_ na~ur~,-- ',481.tJ:n,: of rept~~~ntin$, hinl~$1f at -t:be penal~y -
~

. ilf.. , phase,;.''re.pxe senting hims-1. ~s. .epp~s.tad to counsel.,, .

"',r

.... 19 ' ,l am -guessing, but I. thil.ik it is .a pretty

' I \ ,,

,r'

20:, :
''
goo4 gue_ss-~ I mean, ,evei~bod.t. w-~s p~sent whe~ fai $aid
' ' '

~! ,. ' it to. me.. .

22 . MI(.. MUSICH: P~n 11..that inot;i..on be lll8.de thtough. his

23,
at-to.mer,. _Mr. Kanarek?. ..
,, -

24
All right~ ''.gent.lemsn.
- '\ ~

.(Whereupon tl\e": 'folloWi.f).g proceedings PCCUX- in

 21 669

l O,Pe~ court" All couns~'l and d~fsndants present. Jury

i. absent.)'
....
.3 T:ire COURT: C All d(;li;endants and counse.l are present
4 Th~ jury is not present.
5 Mr. Fit.zgera1d, I have carefully c.onside~ecl
6: yoUl:'. xnotion and yout aig1.1\llents in ~uppor~ of it, 'l hav.e .
7 also re.viewed in m,y mi,nd the eviden.qe at the trial on the:
;,.:
8 guilt phase,. and t.here is no g9od cause whai:ever suggested
9 by you,.or ~hown in the ~ecord, none whate~er in my api'nion~
.,' ' .
10 and aceordiugly, the motion to. ~dd the ~dditional ple~ of
11 ~ot _guilty by re&Son of in~anity will be denied.
12
' ; ''
. _I under~tand yQu have anqehe~. xnotion1

MR~ FI'J:ZGEltALl>-:. _'rh~t. is .c;o#ec:t ~ your .1{Qn~r;,

)3

~
-i' ;I" -r ~ '
A- Ji
i4 On behalf o! a11,the defendants, we are
' ; ...... ~- .. ~ ,'j - ' / ' ... ' ', ~
15.,
interposing an obj.e.cttoll .to. thie. ~o-called. ,Pertalt.- _phase
, , , J' ~
, ~. ' 1 11 1 I
16
, c, the trial on tha g~Qund that' the de~th penalty, which;
~ ~ ~ ,~ "a . S , lo : J O i -I
17
is an equal penalty to life impri.sot1mep,t ii;n Californt.aa- . . '
- '. J - "''

JS is uncqnstitutio nal oq the fo:tiowip.g constt.tutiona l. .-

r , l J i ' ' .
I , 1
,!t. 19 ground$.: ' ,. , ~ ' I

2()
,._
,.._
that the death penalty for fust degiee
21: murder cons~itutes cruel and :unusual punishment tn~v~ola-
' -! ' . C .. ' L, ~- . ' - ; : '
~ . tion
.
of; the :Sighth l\mendment, to the: United ~tates
'
~ ....->"' .. --:
..,,

J

.
~3
Constitu:tiaon , and Section 6, ...Ax:ticle ~.1. of the California.
24 Constitutiol\ . . -~--:-: ~ ,. J .,_ +

~,At ,-
, 21> '
' In suppdrl;: of. fJ:iat .~oposition> l wo\;lld like
26 to argue. that the death penalty is cxuel ~d unU$ttal

:T ,,._1
 21.,670
:I,
' ''

1 beca.use
. '. it inflicts the loss of 1:tfe 'tfithout commensur111,~e
I

!
__ , 2 justification. The r~9 ht to l,.ife. is a funda.menta1 tight
3 and befo~e the State may restxit such a fundru;nental right,
'4 it ,:nust demonstrate a coni~elling intore,st in so doiti$,- and
. '

5 that to show such ,iiln intst-es.t.,

' .~
tlte: Stat,e :xnu,s.t establish
'

6 (1) the. -r.est:ric.tion imposed rationnlly relates to a.

- ~ 1-egieima.t:e government~ objective, and (2) the benefit to
7
I ~ 4'

p
.,
!;,
8 the public far outweighs the im.pnit'IIl.ents of the constitutiona1
,:j.ght; and (3) no alte'r:native menns less subvet'sive- -of
.
10 the con_$titutional rtght axe available. -
The propet f~nctions of punishment are isola..,.
I'
1-2: tion~ rehabilitation and deterren~e, n9t ret~ibution.
13 laolatioA and retribution can be bette~ achieved by life
imprisonment than ~xecution.
-4d f1s-. -14
15 ,.
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4d-l- Itis also Qruel and unusual .in that it is

2.

3
.imposed. withou(! standards and. can b~ imposed rc.gardlass of
e:-ttenuating c.i:r::uumstnnccs
Also, Section$ 190 and 19041 of the CalUornin
5 renal God~ con:l:er absolute discr(}tion on the.jury and
6 tber~by require the jury to perform a sui gcnario Zunction
C

7 which. subjects the d~fendantG to the power of n:i;bitrary

8 dacision.
'9 Section 190 of th.c California Penal. Cede
provdes that:
lfEvery pQr.Son gu.ilty of mt1;rd~r in tl1e
12 first degree shnll suf!o~ .death,. or confin~ent in
the State Prisdn fo~ 11:fe, at the .discretion of the
14, -cou:tt or j-ury tryi113 the srune ,. _and the niatter of
pun~sbment she.11 be determined as ptovided in
Section 190.l.u , 1,

rt Section. 190 ,,d~~-s not:~:tiaulate any l?urpoae or

' ' ,i!o ' \ I -4'

p1Zescr!be any standa~d to,: ~~ide tiie t>ric.r of fact i~ ~t.s

I

.. i9. dete~mination of penalty." S~ctio~-190,l provides ~hat

' ~ ,._ I ~

at-the penalty trtal, evi-de~e: may be presented of the

t ~ ~

Cl.J:"Oumst~n(!.(aS surrounding .the crinm, ~ot: t;he. defe!1dantf s \ .

\ :,; -,I ', ....

2l , a I

~ . back~round and ~istory, ~nd of any facts.~~ azgrav~tion

,t,~ T > ~_j ... ~ 1 I , ~ ~

2s - .or n;d.tigation. 0 tha p~nalty . The de~erminat:f.on qf t;he

24.. penalty o.f life :Imp:i;isonment or death qhctll be in, the
di-scretion of the court or jury ttying the issu~ Qf fact
on the, ~vi~en,ce presenteq,

- Cier::...11ive.cor11 .
 ...... ~~ - .-
l Section l90il does not explain which circum-

- .2,

4i
stat1ces or _background acts ~hould be conaide:red .a:s
agg:rava,t.ing an~ Which ~s :mitigati1' g, no~ the extent: :of
,, impo$_i,tion
a.gg.;ra,j,ation or mit:i.gatiq n necessar, 8 for the
5
or withholding of the ultimate p~nalty.
6
A number .of California Supreme Court cases have
7
heid that the jury doen not need to find ameliorati ng
... 8,
citcU1nstanees to impose life imp~ison.ment nor need it find
~ agg:r.nvati.on tn .order to :l.cp0.se tbe death penal,ty~ The
_,
;"
19,
ch9ice between tll<a 'bto penalties res.ts_ :tn .the abso;l.ute
n discre~io n of the jury.
l.2, FJ.11:'the:rmore, the jury is instructe d uhat 11:Beyond
13 .p:resc~ibing the two nlternativ ponalties, , the law_'itse.1
1~ provides no ntandard for the suidance of the j~y in .the
15
selection of the penalty, butl .:r.athe:i;'> commits the whole
" .
lq ' mat;:ter of. dotorminin g ~;hich of the. two penalties .sh.all ,be
-- ' ~

17
fi:sea to the judgment., conscienc e snd absol\,lte discretion
'i$
o:f the jury...11
., 19
' '!'ho absolute
. ,,
disc:rcc_i.on
<

1 0
'

the ju:ey is not only

1, -~ .., ,,,
20
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unguided and unlimited ; its.exe:cc ise is not even subject
) ~ ;-'
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2:1 ,, . to review on the q1,1es,t.tdn~' of' ~buse~ ,'. ~ '. ~ . ,.
' . l ' . 1

:~ In a-1'.L otb.e~ situations ~than,. th~ pena-1ty' trial, .

I

23
jury. deliberate s under the C9urti s itist:ruct:ln$ ,and
' I ' ~ ' . (

~
~eachcn its verdict$ -within the area delineate d by the

2:s

:,26, . '
'

judge; ~n the most ituportant dacision- df all) whether a

l+wnan bein; shall l.ivo or die:; the j1,1.,:y has no guiclelines J.
J ":,,- - 1 i I '

4efl$~. no- st~dttrds , no or;J.te.r.ia.

CieloDriw.com
 21')673

.4e-1. I, Ne. 3. Thn possible impositio n of the death

.

'
z penalty in the ubsa~co of any presc~ibed standards
3,
.'
4epri.ves the defendants of life without due proces,s of law
4, ~n-viqlat ion of tha Fourt~ent h /mend.neut to the Unit~d
{) s:tat,es Constitut ion.
' .
6 Nothtng could be mor~ basi~ to the ~ue proce$S
~

~ 1 <:lausa b+" to the re quircmetJ.t: 0 procedura l fairness than

. ' ~ '
,.,
_;. 8 that .n per$on not suffer the a~bitrm:y deprivati on of hts
9 life or.liberty -.
to Tile .cons,t;itut i.onal imperative that laws
n . ini:t:ingin g' upon life and libe:~ty be framed in terl1:s of
l~.. a reasotial;,:J.y asce:i:-tqin able st<U1da.rd is cent:ral -to our

13, administr ation of c:ritninal justice.
,14, The absence 6 any ~tand~tdo to circwn.sctrlbe
fact.s !Sr -the trie:r of f,1.cts' discretion under .Sections 19.0 and 190 .1
16 of the t
PenQ.1 .Code to detexmine ,~hether a convicted capital
for? 17 defet!,dnnt -~lw.11 sufc~ de~th or life impri$onment the~efore
'
C

iii deprives the defendont s cot):d~ed ~o dauth of his life

...,., i9 ~it}lout due process of lnw"

,., ~o '\ The! re~irouie nts of tt rea~onabl,e de~ee of '

21 c~ttainty in logislntio n, ~ppeoially .!n. the criminal
. - ' . ,. ; ' ~
:.
22 law, is a well ostablish ede1~,n t of the guarantee of
'23
]

due p1tocess ~f latv.... ..

~

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f L

. ,. ~ .
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0

The constituti onal -req~irement for ce~tainty

24

21>. :i;n., the critnina.l law serves to ptotect ti1Q basic isets of
~ 0 " L ' --

26 rights dcemsd.fUti~u~ental to the administ~ ation ?f" criminal

1 ' Ir ., ''

... -~~ --
 -,1
',\
r.c..,. ,..

justice.: The fit st :Ls: th~;_;:c,0J;1,aep_t o-f notice and the.

$eco~dp~t:iciedural safeg'ua:tds ~nd an opport~nity for
meaningfql ~evi~~
4 A crillin.al law whwh .i-s no; f~$.e4. in t:e:rJns
.5 -.of. suf~ic:L-ently
,..,..,
a.~co:rt.uinable stand1,rt.l;ls viol.ates the 4ue:
" 6 . --~pr,:;~eso- c.lat.;t.so in th~ first :i,nstance because it -fn1.1$ to
~.: - ,.-t'-;.... ~ : : 1!' ;,,,,,,,_~ ' ' f ' - ' ' I a r '

5 fltt,.,.,, ~_ .7 'give. adequate _warn~ng of its own prqsc:r:iption ..

,' ..

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.24

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21 6
-. . . . . , .. i

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l .. :Cn athe;r words., a-~a.et~ndari.t. ougbt.-to".be provided.

with a r$asonab-le opportunity to p~epa.re and pJ;t.esent his
a
4'
de.tense and not be
Aitt~
taken by sUl'p.ria.e.
a criminal ~tatute lac~~g a surtic1ent.ly-
5 asoe~tainab1e m::anins p:recludes ~dminis.t:r.a,tion purs,uant .to
con:atitutionally r~-c.iuird p~Qcedu:r-al s.atesua:tia:s.. The laek
1 o: a$certa1na.l>le Gta:ndar.d~ rlenie_s the aoQused .-e:t -a.
,. s. r:ieaningi'ul defense and pr.events Juq.icial c.ontirol and
vev..1etl of the r.el.avancy and. suti'1.ciency of the evidence to
10 es.ta:blish a vi.olati.on- ot law.
li' ~he of'f.enses wh;I.ch are punishable 01 death' are set:
out in ~ta.tutes aontained in the Cali.fornia. Pe:nal O04e JJ:he

13 a:1.X>cUJI!.st.anaes: 1,1nder whi<:fh a pe;ttso11 may re~e1 v~ the dea:~h
. .' ' .
penalty rather than life impr~~drunent remAin totally unclear
. .
i; howeve~. The law~ by fa1i1ng t~ p~ovide crtterta sufr~oien~ 1
. .
1~ . ast:er~ainable to- guide th~ c-ourts and Jutiie.s, in m_aking that
.
:,.1 .di$t1.ncttQn, prevents ~ de-.t'enda.nt from know.1-:g how to show
.
1s that he fails witbin the class or capita~ offen.de~s ~or whom-
th~ law oc>ntemplates tl1e_ le-s,se~ penalty of life in}pr1sonment.
'.
20 ' F-urthermo~ei'the cQmplet~absenoe 0~ ~tand~rd~ in
. .
- ~I . the admin,1at~av1on of ~~e.deatb penalty deprives the
.;.
d~-t~nd~t _o:f an~ way to p~ot.ec;t bimfJe~f .agains.t an arbitra:ry
_23 imposition of the death ponalt.y. ij:tnae no l.1m1ta.tionEJ bind .

, .. 24'

25
the exero:tse -o-r th~ disl'.et-ion

penalty t~tal on the. g:ttound

.
~an neither challenge tbeevidence introduced QU~ing ~he
-o:r the

ot 1nsutt.ic.1e,n-oy nor seek :vevi~w

jury,. the defendant

on th~ ground ot the erroneous application of the de4th

...
 1-,--_.___-,--:-,-_ ---,------~------,2 -l,_6_7_6________,-----.--il

-.
l. ,penalty to h:tm.
2 $eot1ons 190 and'l90.l tht.tl den;y- due process o.t
,
law because they provide no standa:t-df:J by.which an abuse
4 of discretion by the trier of' ra:et oa.n b~ curbed o~ even
5 sul)jeated to revie\-1. The power oi.' tb.e trie-r ot fact to
' ,6, deort':le the death sentence 1s ae };>road and ar~itrarr as it
'l ls .abs.oiute antI untouchable.

.,. The absence o~- any p:reacribed standa:rda, in the

~ a~irtistration o:r the death .penalty deprlves the dijfendanta
10 s.enten.ced to dath c;,f their ztight to equal p~otection o-r
n. the law in violation ot the .F-0u:rteenth -Amendment.
12 The unguid:ed dis.c:11et1on ot the .1 ury to .decide
is that a cQnV'iated capital defendant ~ball suffer death

- 1s.
r.atn~r than life i:tnpri13.onment violat-es the bas;lo. ~"1.tarant.ee
Qf' the equal p-rotection ola.uae that the legal process
10:.. must prov,:J.de for even-handed justice.
~ such discretion also violates the ~ssential
. , .i& -0or.ollary ot this propo~it.1.on that. a . statute abridge a this
. ' t '
19 gu.a~a.nty :tr- ;tt con:re:tts up<>n the j:ux,y 11 .a naked and al"bitrary-
. . t -~ .' l.. ~
power 11 1;0,-:; imJ?oie a criminal penalty 011 the bas:1s of any
.. ~
' , '=", -f 'J '

21 p~incipl~. ; Thf! equa.l~ p~ot,ect~on o_lause p~o~~bi'tif!, the

'ot a: ol,;~s.s of indivio,uale. .tor' the
: ~I' '"\'II,: : \ : ,t ' ' '. 1 ,

.e,;r.,b;t,:trary,' ~el~eti6n
23 ;Lmposit;tQn. ot a speo1a:;t, .,ord~n. : ;r.t requirea .a., . p:iinimum
. ~

...... ~
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24' th$.t legis"lat:tve clau$1fcationa: be r-a.tlohally . related to

2_Jj' a leg;i tmate government:al );>t;tl"poa l! w _ ' ., ..,:,._,, '

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26 T~e proaedux-e under Sections 190 an~ 190.l, pro~

viqj,:pg no cl,as.si:f'i
. catory. O:ri teria
. wllat
.
aoever, p&rmi ts a ' '
 ... .
. - 21,.677

~l t I , ' /S

..

J. tr1e~ of
~

ract;arbitra~ily to' dete~mine whct~&r
~
' ... -4t_,, ' ' l -
a particular
... I .. ' ii'
j .. I ) .. , f.1 '

a convicte~ capital ~ete~d~t shbul-d_s~tte~ o;Jieatb.~ather t~an

,

a life imprisonment.. Suen e.'bsenc-q bf, c,?-aas;f;Lc.atio.n- r-enders.

' ,; ~~ I> , I, IF ' ,I ' .., "' '

:4 the cur.rent p~ooedure. irisitttio:J.'ellt to aatisty e.ven the '

'
5 : ~niiuwn. r-equ~rem.ent of equal protect,i91'.1 . I? ;aili;tg to ' '
" t , ~ ' 1 I- , 1

Ji provide any rati,onal b~s:ts llpo.n which to just1ff an

7 1m~os1tton of .the death penalt, on those particular conviotec
. .
.a ca.pit-al de.t"endants s.entenoed to death rather thart lite
p 1mpr1.sonraeri-tr.t, th~ la'W -m.akes an 'inv:1~:,.ous d.1scrim1nation
10 ~s~:LtiGt those upon whpln the trier of raot imposes the death
H penalty.
12 Tb'l,ls J' the tri&l? <;>.t' tact 1 a absolute power to impose,
' ' .

ra the d:e~t'l1 pen~lty on a. .convicted e~pital de.t'endant,.violatea

.
1.4, ' the basi-0 interdiot-ment Of' the eg_1,1a1 p;ttote,otion Olause that
', '
lS no person shall hold na '!laked and arbitr$j;ay powerst to. make
i~: invidious discriminations a.gain.Q't another,.
11 In a ~tudy perfpr.w.ed by Han$ Zei~el, entitle4 .
is. nsoine Doubt-
. r,,n Juror Attitudes JJ:ow~~d c.apital F'u111$llment 1 1t
.
'
19 att$:t- demona,trating that he- -can find no deoisi ve f.~c;,tor~
' '
~p Which ~coo.unt tot- the i:rtfl:lction f.lf. the penal:ty, the autho~
21: conc;,ludeC$ 1tin the end the task is. one of dee:Lding who i

ll2,
. .among those ,aonvic.ted ot cal;>1 t~l crtnies > is to- die. .. Wha_tvd: ~
~~ the differences en which thi~ dec~$lon h1~g~s, ~~ef remain
'
dem~aningly trivial compared to the .stakes. ~he d1scret1Qn~y

~4

2S. use Qf th~ death penalty requires a dec1a1on w~ch no

~(i hwnf:m $houid. .be c~Ued upon .to m~e. n .
Sect:Lons 190 tm'd 190 .l pe~m;Lt th Judge ,or J.ury.
 --- -
21~678

l to decree tha random doom ot d~ath without the restraini~g

.
2 ... gt.tide of rei;ts.on-~ Ueitller sioci-ety nor the L~gisla.tu:re nor tb.4
s oouvts have sa:J.d why one capital tte.1.'endant abou_ld be
' . .
4 selected t;o d:te and another to live~ 'l:he death_pena.lty
s has b.~en supporte.d' as a punishfi'.1ent !> a deter;rent_, 4 tlt;l.:f'ety

6 va.lve or revense.,. an ~conom:r for the state, and on other

7 groundri-,, eac.h of uhich ho.s b:eeh as hotly defended. as it ha-s
8 been aeve~ely attacl{ed. Butno on~ knows whi~h of these
9 notions, and a.s many otlleri;J a~ the mind aan c;o:njure., are
1P_, ac.oidenta.11 seized upon b~l tbe jud,ee or JU?:iy to_ ~rant 'or_
. .
n .deny . life~ . No- one lqtaws what moves the J u.dge o:r jury to
Xia e-el~ct a capital <le:t'endant- f,'o.xs death., W~ know -oniy that
rs the rnotivea and notions that deal -out death .are as o~sc_ure,
J.4 diaorq.ered;, and ittra:tional ~s the statistical d.ncid,ents or
l5, the death penalty :ttself. Yet t'l:1e toun4at1on l'ock of law is
16 X'eai:$on; the judiaial proeesi3 pr~aupposes that- 1t$
17, de-termina.ti~ ns are just.i'f'ied. only :wnen expl.ained or
18 explainable- 1n rea~Qn't
19 Th:e ir~ational proce::;.s. o.t dec:ree:1~g death cannot b
~o- 11econc:,.le-d lt;Ltb the l!lEUiSe ot :r;o~a.soned justice; We cannot
. If a civilized
21 .. " exp-lain wby or- when we illlpose .the penalty.
.22: : soo1,ett cannot say whj ~ne man Should be execu.ted and
" ' . >' .
anotner not~ :tt dd.e{S .. npt 1>atio.n:ally., :\,gical~y, take life.
. ' ,, ~. - . ..;
,- I _. '

In.dee(!., it .kro.ssly denies due. pro.c~s~- of law 1n inf'li~ting.

~ ' ' ,a.

. ' ' ~- ; .~
. 25 . deatp- U~Qn the ba.~ia qf _,a t~iaJ; _t~at :t:s~ capri~io_us
',, -., ._ ' .e' ft,_ T.. 1 : , \ ' _,-_.

.26.. :. . minatory I.ind. gue.ss intested.

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 -21.,67~.

l' 1.rnank y.ou.

':fliE _COUR.T. oo you .care to :respond, 1-lr.. Billosi 'l

I '~- MR11. SUGLIO$I= No. , /, .
.,.
.4 TBS OOUR'P: _ "The- -copst!ltut1onal1ty -0-f the death
- - 1
\ f ~
s . penalty.,. as ,.o:u,. It;~ow ,. I1lr. l?!;t~6erald 0 has. been p:tat;J~d. -on
6.
I

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Iha.ny t:tlne~ l;frj"th by the. Catto:rnia Supx.-em,e O'o\1.r~t and United

' _,. Jt.I ,- < ' ~ ,i I!' ' ~ i-::

~ ~ "1' .., ~ ~
!''
.~ ?I' Stlt.es. Supreme Court: . , , : .
,i' I. ,- i I j I

l . " : .. . ~ .' . . i ~

. ...
ll
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1he ' cruel and.ijtlil)man. ptu'iishment iu.gwnf!nt has. '

. : ~ > beeri

tUl'ned down num~rqu-s- t1mea-,. ~nq the. -cqur_t~- .b~ve pointed.
.. , "
~ . . r,
.. lI
,10:.' out the ~act that tne.United States Oqnstit~tion anticipates
u the .de(l.tp. :pe.no.lty no less than three tim..es in the .;Fifth
1~ . Am~no,men-e al-one-~
p,
,in. th(). G:r.and Jury, the d()ub le jeopardy and
r -t L

J3. tbe 4ue p~ocess clauses ot the Firth Amendment.

I

li$. :1 As . to- the C.ali1"orn1a proce.p,ui'"e) so tar as a

15 . - penalty tt-1al. in the a~s.olute d1.sc:ret:iQn ot the jury 1a
.iii .c.onoerned, -our California S.up:,;,e:i;n.e -court has upheld the
a:onBt.1tut.ig:n~l1ty of. those pr?v-4.isian.s in th~ Anderson -cat?e,
''
18 . and othe~.cases
..." ,.
. l!)i
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.- O~ course, _as rou. kno~, the eonetttut1onalit1 ot
the California provisiqns is presentlt pendi~g before the
2t ,
.,
Untted s'ta-tes Supreme Court in o-aee.s whicb p~ob.aply Will be
22 handed down this yea~
. .Bt.tt 1noorar al{ this. court 1$ concerned., tbat
'
24 decisi9n ha~ already been m~4g by oUP caiitQ.1'l~ &upreme
'2_5 .; Cou~.
.. :Cn aw event, l ,don'_:
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J)el'a6;all7' I;> e-l;l.eve. thai,""e

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 21,,680

l p~ovisio ns ar~ t,U'l.con$t1t~tion~l, and the motion Will pe

2, denied.

3.

4 and
' .
proceed
Anything further before w.e bri:ps th.e J~y dQwp,.
~iyh tpe penalty phaGe?
'

' 5 MR. li'J:!L1ZGERALD: I b~i~ve r,1r. i--1a.nson bad a motion,

your ao~Qr;. .: '-. "
..,..,.
,,
6
. ,: . ~ ~ :, .
7 ['~ cotm.T i I Mi-/ mmson, 1ou may b~ h~ard...
I ' , ;r' ~ ~"'' ' ' 'If ..: i,. ' ' '

;,' . DEF$J?ANT t-7ANBon ~ ~r "~t S.l'.lY:.t~me pri~~,: ~~ the ea.rller

'i ' ...

.. !) t.i--ial.~ that I have ~erJ,e-cted any mi'3Qond'q.C.t :,;n. t.h~ t,ace Qt

- .. ' . ' ~ ,t '
'

. your. Horto.rJ 1t bas be~n ci.t, ',t~e f~~U~ohea(i . of.. t)Q~ Ju~ge ~..
> ..

10

11 . X w.ould 111::e" at . thin .time 1 if P0:8 s;LQJ.e, to-

12
. ,' : s~b)nit ~,s~lt in toto~ ~~ ~ut;o~~ p~~alty ph~se on bebal~
--- -~ --
of myselt in
pl.ace of M~. Kanarek

woxs.k:Lng
.
I don't have anf mo:ve mQney.

. seven lilbnths
'
now
I haven't got any more money
You see, he: ha& beet1
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and.
to, par him: 'nlat is one good r-easort~
17 And anoth&~ goo~ ~eason is that X have peraona l
.)s k~owledge of the people involved , and could pr.ob~blf put ~n
19 .'. . a Vert sensible . pen.alty phase 1:t the Jui;ise would l~t lite do
thiE;& .
21: ~HF; oattRT: Well,; r,w .Man$on,. this question ,. of cou.r$e,
. ;_2.. as ypu .k,now.,. has been cons-ide:red b~l.t a do~en times or .more
..
;is $1noe tbis ca~e began,.~ ~ at least tour d1ftetre nt j-u9,ge11.,
.sever1al times b.y me ...

~!i: .
. ! aee no reas~n. to change my mind that you are not
bompetent to ;""epresent yoursel f.
, ' '

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.21"681 ~

. .
l DE-Flt1ID.4NT
'
MANSON : I -' Your
;
Ho.nor
'
:-":--,

2
THm COUET: Now~ if you have information whion you
3 , think "fill help you in th~ penalty phase,_ then r' certainly
',
-4 urge you to give it to, :1-0ur attorney and pe-rmit him: to
5 conduct the b~st possible detep.Q,e that he can; and the
. 6 ppesenae o-t Mr. Kana:re}c,as your lawy~r is not going to
~ ' . . 't h~nder your defense; i~ is going to help it, If I did.not
belie\re so l would q.o .somethine; about it .
-~. , DEFENDANT MANSON: We have bean throuah this before as
'
10- w.ell on ,Qne aide a~ tqe other~ an~ I say to you this,, that
11 ... no man q,an s-peak in place 9t this man tnat 1rt st~din_g in

i 12 front o.r y.pu ...

1

THE COURT: Well
.OE~ENDANT MAN$ON=: Your Ron.or, may I be heard> please"?
'. lS -The atto,rney ha.& not _put on a def'enae.
-:Uh-e attorney;s did.rt' t want to a.sk the questions
l7 when .1 t q.arne tma to put dn tlle- defense ...
1s . 'l'he. a.tt.oi1neys 'Would;n 1 t ,unde?"stanp. the d~fen"!le !Lf,

. lt was put,on in front of them .

20 Tbe children that you h.aye ti.~re ar~ as you would
' 21; tei'leot upon m(;t ~ the 'iftadequacy, that you :t'eel., an4 tell me , ,
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.- , tbe .wordi, that come. rrom your head, I ,aon 1 t \lnderstand

,23 It may be ~our- rea.11.t.y~ and you maybe
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spe~ing f1:bl'D. it, but ::tt doe.snt domm:uni.oate to ~e, as well
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1,. as .,somet~bn&a that. I tl'1 to ,q,omm~n1cate to thia Court ~nd it

becomes d1.t.fioult at times tot! your Honor to widerstan4
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2 We w:i,1;ih to pu.t .on a.: -<lefehfi.e ;r we .,w~nted to

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pv.t on
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a de.tens e fro41 the minute I was. ar;r;-~l;!ted. I knew_ that
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No_~:~ :i.11 th::! pr~v:r- mot:tor.ia:, in the pttior motiorr s
6 that :t Q.f:Cercc. in front of you, so:a~th ing d;ld cQ.me betwee n
7 us. and it wa~n Pc, 1n:.,' i7~ul~o .
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It co~i1e betwee n us oec-aus e the
'8 She~if f has more :lUthor i t1 ~~J.lall if our Honor.
9 Ii' the Judcc oays -one thing, the Sht:1r1i"t a-ay-s
10:

g The prQ p~~ fi).cilit>i,f..:. wa~ not :ln the isoj.ati c>n
i2 war.d,_ and .l -d1(..t.~1_tt ho.t-0 acce.us to the proper materj. al to
rs mal,;::e r.iotion.l.,, ::.nd 1:.non tho rr.c~ion-.:,: d:l.d appear in front of
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your ifonor) the:,, 't-J'.o-r~n t rrolil this mun; the-y we~e from
another - se~men t .>' anotbc: r tllau.sc .t, yoJJ. know~ and I look at
i6 thi-s attd I uo.y to t1;s.r.nelf,, the only til~~e:; that I can- Clo +s
J-1 .giv~ my&el an equal -ohan..e~.
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:t wot1ldn 't <~ilk you for an;:rtbii lg that I o-ouldn 't
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.. ~i~e i1.t1.u,. nno r cr.1~ to be 0J:.lc;1zr::t to pu.t on tl.1.is penalt
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~ha.se ~ as I hD.VE-' a.i:.ltcd tc, be alltmed to orfer a detens-e,
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a$ clums3 atid v.i1.1:;r.rn.j?.cJ. ,ls it r;,.~y bo, l .J. .,:,'Ure you -Will see
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that it it v~:r:y ade-uutc:-bt::c~u~0 ! .can ati1nd on ml tl1ougp.it
23
as I o.m Qn~ ir1 th m:t tho:ugb t '
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?llE C:Qlll!T1 llr. B:;.n"on, you will O,e perm1t ted to l>~t,,~v
~5 /_, /ff' .
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on all l~galli, r adni:Ji3 ible ctv:tdr;:nc.~. in your de!entH1 on t9e
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Mr. Kanarek .to th($ utmost,..of Y.Otf.r a_bllity .. ~, ,
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4 d~ni~d.
~.our motion 'to ;,substitute to. ~e.l~eve
an4 repi1e:sent . you:ris~ ~.; ,(11.'. ~ll~V--
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ia what 1:t
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be
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Mr.~

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5, ' DEF'EN~'ANT MAUSON ( Bef~~'3 ypu, ru:l 'b~tor;

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JQU rule'
fj please -- tl1e'-re 1$ no l-:ay that I can thi.n1' fr.om ti-s. 1tlan
'i (ind1cating)
-..... -8 . Tbe:i:1e 1$ no way ,that_ I e:an l)Ut _!lly .wot-"d'$ .in this
-9 mants head~
iO . Th&'.t'e is no wa.y I a.an spealt tb.l'O\l$h any Of these.
'll fieoplet and the:re 1s ho way an:, ot these peQple can s:pea.k
12 -th;t'OUgh nte
There is no we.y that I .can express- :my thought on

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the wi,tness stand, becaue.~ when l say som.eth:Lng on tbe
w:t.tness stand, that does not . ;p:iake it valid simply becau-se

I ~a1 it_
11 l wish 'to eall -wi.tnesi,ea in In.1 behalf,_. as I. bit-VG
18 wished to eall wit~e.ases tn my behalf. ~is h:as beftn ro~
'19. show .
What good~$ aco\l?'troo~ it it 1s o~ly one~~ided?
.21: : ~ couaT-i I hear~ your ~gument.s ., Mr, Manson:, I
22 ~ave heat'd the argum.ents; I have heard the same arg.ume~tJ
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23 before. 'rbe tr,tof;:l:on i1B 'den:t:e4.

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24 , ' DEFENDANT MANSON: It is not. an a"r'gument. It, 1s a f'ac1
~5 , THE OOWT:. -All :r~gbt, tJir; you- 111ay si.t do~.'
,26 l)EFEN'DANT I;(ANSOij 1 Oa.n you l:ook at the fact?

c:iain. . .
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 21,.63.4
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THE GOURT: You ma;r''

a:it. down, sir..,
J ~ ~~ J

. . DEFENDANT l1ANBONt /
Ca~ you look at the. faot-?'
3 .. Tl$: COVR:r: . . You.. may oit do\iln, sj_l.'.
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4 DE~ENOAU1? !>IAlrnON: Whi-tan't'yo~ t~iok at the t:aot? 1

.5 THE COURT: Sit down, Nr.;

Manson. t l'
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DEFENDAHT MANSON,,. I.f: ;yo.u were, truth ~ -- ,

THE COUR:l: ~ Bring the . j tp:.'Y dol'tq" :. f ' >

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. .8 DEFENDAWr I11ANSOH: Now 'i am supposed to $it here like

MR. KANA:REKt tour Hon.or,, I have another motion

);I ~eto~e the jury come$ down.
12:. "THE COURT: Sit dawn, :Nr. Manson.~

( 14 -dammit man.,. loot .at it.

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THE. COURT~ Ail right, l: a.m ..goi~g to have_ y.ou re.moved.,
i6 M~. M~n~on) and you wj,1J. not b"e pre.sent during the penalty
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-11. . phase of y.our trial_.
' DEFE?tDANT M'ANSOJ:1 t It doesn t t mean anything. : I am
19 a.irea:cJy removed .from' the first- day.
r I l'

2() Tlffi., COU'ET: If y.ou don rt sit down at oncre I wJ;.l have
:ft
21 you reino:ve:d. I suggest to you it is not to your best
22 interest.
PE~NDANT M:AN$0Nt My be-at :tnterest_, you alr~aQ.J
"convicted me tQ~ ,aornethtng t didn't even: do.
25, 'r THE COURT: Mr. .Kanare~., 1QU may ma.ktt you,: motion'.I'.

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5b-1 r MR. l<Alu\tml<:: Your Honor,' I have a motion her~.

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2 mFENDAh'T ~1S0N: Re ain't got .nc, guts; he' a a

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l'.,oman.. You eap.tt face me in this courtroom . If you 1et

4 ma go in b.ei:e r d tear tha.t little boy apart; yo'U know

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6 .W.. llUGt,.I_OS_I: You .al,:aady called me a genius~ 1

7
Ch.;irl!e.

. 8 Tim COURT: That,.will be .enough;;. Mr. l3ugliosi.

:;,

9 "(.ets proceed.
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10, MR. KANA.ru::K~ I have a m,otion he:re to determine the

11 state of mind ot Ev~lyn Hines, pr~sently a juror in the
12, nbove-ent ;itlad tictipn, 'a motion. r.e . :security, -wh:f.ch is in
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13 v:titing ... C
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! hav~
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belie.ve that since becQrd.ng
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1~ sequester ed 411d n .t~i~l jur~r 111:--t--s/ cii!le,. M.:J.ag ~tne~ :,':"~ :

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16 . THE COURTt Waie,- Mr, Ka.t1a1:ek --

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t ,._ 1 ' 1 I 'f ._

J,7 MR. ltANARln<:. Miss Hines- has; taken to alcoho-t .....

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18 'Tn' ,COllRT: Then you put .1:t in .the form oJ; ~ ,qr.it;telt
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19 motion ~n1pport~d by decl~r.a.tions a~d file it i:n' th~ :~urt

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20 . and it w:i.11 be takert up 4t the propez- ti.me.
"21' ,MR., ~EK: She is comingdown now.
"22, .. THE COURi' ~ Y~s.,. ahe is
:23 Ma. I<ANARE:K:. l do have. :tt .(indicating )-,.
'THE COUR'r: Sit down,j Mr. tanarek.
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MR. KANAREK:
' I do have it . '

"29 ?lm.qOURT: Ali right, then fil~ it.

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tovere~ u~ forever~
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(Whereupon the JXJ.~be:rs o-i the ju:ry. ente-r the
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cou~ttoom and the follow~ng p~-0ce~dtngs were had in open
eoltlZt iri the presence.and he~ting of the jury:)

nm COtmT: ,, i\11 defendant$, counsel and j utoi;s a1:e

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.present ..

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Yoq_ lllaY, proceed, .Mt", Bugliosi .

9 ~' BtJGLIOSI: j?eopl~ call nert;1.itrd Crowe.

:to TBE CLERK: Would you raise' y;;ur i!gbt haudt -Sir.
lloul.d you please reps.a afte,: me:

12
l: do _.solemnly swe9-,: .,_

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-rHE. 'WlX!IBSS: l do. solemnly swear ......
14' -.. TIIE GttRK: _..:, that the test:tD?,ony i n,tay give ...
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15: , . THE W+INESS'!. ,...,. the tcst;irp,gny l. may give .......

16 _ . "!'EE CLERK: ~ ... itt ::r:be, qa~s6 )low pending w

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.Tm! WITNESS~ . - ... th? <?a.use n..ov~ pendi~g ,. ...,.. ,.
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~THR CLERK: - .. :b.e-0:t"c this; ~ou~t ~~- ~ . ' '

'lllE l!ITNESS: ....... before this crourt ~~, '

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THE CLERK: ..,_ shallhe t;hetru.th "!'...

'.l'-l!E WITNESS: ..... the. truth .. .;. ::. . . a .,_ i "I

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..... .the who'le truth_ ... -

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nmCLERK: -- and not}!in'bu~_ tho t:(uth -- ,..- .

.. THE Wll'NEss: ... -and n~thi;nc; but~ the truth

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T1iE CI.ERK: so help trte. God~

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tlIE 'WITNESS:
THE. CLERK:
sq help ~e God*
Would you be seated; please,
W9uld you pleaee state .and spell yo~name~
.

4 THE l-11:Tl~SSt liy n~o- ic B~nerd Crowe, Crowe.

'5 . , Dl,:mn,\l.'tt MANSON~ :t. elm'. t get nothing _from. i:hb_ lllan.l
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l. 1;1D.~t even communicate 'Wibh him.

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7 Tat COURT: All right. rem~vs Ml'. Mans9n fJ"om the

,; 8 ..courtroom.
.g l!11l -counsel approach the bench., pleas-
10- (tlhereu.p.on Mr.- Man:son leaves the <:ourtt'oOlll
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11 cl ~bo follot12.t\8 procoed:l.ngs. were had at the be.neh c:,ut
ii - of. t:he hearing t:>-f .the jw:y:)
have f
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13 . THE COURT I :r 'If.Silt :te~~rd to t-eflec:1: what J;
M ju.st ob.sorvad., and tih:lch of '.t!ourse the xecot.d c~t.tlc;l -not ,. J
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other than Mr. Manson s woi-ds.~
is . :;ho,;i
Wer~ yo'l,1 able to get ~:Ls. ~or<isf
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' tt , S REPOB~lH. X wath
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THE! -COUR'l': Mr~ M4tl~son sttu~k Mr. I<anar.ek, it;

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appeared to in.e, seve:ri:11' tillles. ., I

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. .21 lm. KAffAREl{: If I eou.1d deel:{.ne to stl\t.e,. y.owt .

. ! ) . - ~.. , , ., ' .~ -,. : ,- ' '
- ,a2 .. . Honor, on the basis ~.,. '
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~IJ Tim 'COtJR'J!: l)O you
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want to take
, . ~:
~ha filth
" ... .
~ndQJ.ent?
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.~ ~4 MR l{AN,t\~ElC: NP t ycsur Hon(),:, ~ think I. owe i.1:- to

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the eefendant, I think )'our Honor lias othei: means of
ascertaining t:ho$e fa9-ts.~
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21 .. 688

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THE COUR".C: I cm atat;l.t1,g what the facts Q.re. :E

001 nitving you a. chance to <l'onum it or ,d'ispute it :if yog,
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.? ifke ..
4 Uhni: happaned t-.7os that }Ir. Manson struck yqu.
5 several times, -sitting at tho counsel table,- and in a
{i voico that could be plainty heard said wotds to the
'I af~e.ct. '1I c;antt ~et along with hlPl; I can t' get al,ong,'
.8 'tlith this man) n o-r wor-ds to ,that $ffe-ct
As n result of th~t tliGtupt ive and violertt
:to behavior t had him.removed from the courtroom.
ll Does anyone car~ to sa.y ,.miything1.
12. MR. BUGLIOGl~ I obsGxved the same thing that the
Court cti4,.
I obse,:ved one :fnitly hard blow by Mr" Manson
15 -, . to, Mr .. K;anarek s side.
;1.6 "1:aE COURT: Tit:t:s 1vas plainly Vi$ible to. th~ jury
because Mr.. Munson was sitting, fo.cing the jury a.t
11
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'J.8- counsel- table with Mr. l{a~4,::ak f,a~tn:rj the jury d;I.r:ec.t1y ,'
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... 1~- :tn: front of the jux-y on, the opp~site _ ~ide of th~, ~outtr.oom1
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20 n.ot moie than 20 feet IJWPY'. ,
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. ~l MR. B"(JGLIOSi,: :whh~ :c say: l ob~eryd one blo~~, , .
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:C do not me.an to say l observ~d all of the blows-i

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-'.Uhei;e
-~a vary welt may have been more blo~s: :-I- ~a~ -~o~kin,c -.;o, !the~ :
24 front,., ,4n4 11hen l looked to the le~t X saw on~ ~~0t1 .
9,-._ 25 MU,. 'MY: ! obse1;;ved twq blo\:7S'; 'b~th to Mt; kana:reks
:,2~

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Would your Honor admonish, the jq~

2
not to considet it f9r ~y ~u;pose~
4
Tim
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cot.mt: Yes, Xwill.
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11R... KAl.{t\J.U;Iti, ve-i:y well~. yout' Honor.

So- .fl-s ~ 5.
THC COUR.,.t: AU right, gentlemen)- let 1 s piioceed.

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 21,690

THE COURT: The .ful?y is actmon1$he.d to disregard

11r. 1lan~qn 113 statements to Mr-. Kanarek, if you were able t9
1

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hear them-;. and
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also disr~gard what yo\1 saw in -oQnneetiQn
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4. wtth the little incident between Mr .Manfron and Mr~ Kanarek

5 .Lett$ p~ocee4, gentlemen.

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6 ltlti: .KANAEEK: Your: U:onor-, may I nav a oontinuis;
1 obj~Qtion on relevancy and materiality~ an,d that the
,.:
,prejudicial value o:u.tweighs'the probative va:J;.ue a.star aa.

io T~ COURTt Yes~ you may.

ll 1-lRt KANAREK:, Tllllnk ;vou, you:r liQno~.
12

-
DIRECT EXAMINAT.IOU
14,, ' f)Y r.m. BUGLIOSI:

' k .:.
Q liQW Old are ,-:ou,, Mr~ -Crowe?
A,, 2'8. -..
~ On the clate:5 July 31st, l969, )(ere rou up in
Hollywood?
I ~ .J I , .~

19- , t ~ . - ie:s ~
- ~o f,t.,~ ,"-.w~re you ~t ..an -&;Pa;r-tn:ien~ .~ou~li on ,ranklin
; ~ :$. ' T ii J 11, '' ii. I "1 t ~ ! -' M~ ~
21 " Boul,evar<t in Hollywood? ~
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Yes.. : -. . ~ '
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no you know the a.dd?Jet&a ot that apartment house,?
,Iii, ;, - """ ' ,,.._

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. nornetning to tha.t etteat ..

Ar9"und f>9l>O blo-clc' OJ."'.

'The 6900 bloelc o_r .....

26 _... Ii;r$nklin Boulevar:d.

ii
 1 q -- FrqX;t.klinBoulevard.?

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Yes,.
Near what laz>ge intersac:ti-on '1
I thin~~ it '2- 1b$tween Highland a.nd I.ia
'. j
area, if I am
s. not mi:;i:ta,ken. . '
6
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.,JO. Whqse- car_ was this?. ' .
11 A,
12 Q An~ 1ou.we~e 5eated in the oar?

1'3

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-A..
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Yes ..
And wna.t 1a the fri,end"'-s name?
SteYe.
,J6 14 Was anyone .else :1.n the car?
tz A. .Yes.
18 Q, 'Who else?
,. ,' 19
Steve:, Dell,, Jm and Rosinu. and myself'.
, ,20 '
. (-. ' , . ' ' ' '
~heaa w~re all fri~nds Q~ yourn?
' , r. 1:
~l -Yes~
,22 "
D-0 fQU know Rosi.nars. las~ name?
23 A. NQ, :t don 1-t ,
Q;_ Did Rosina l:Lve 1:n this ~partment b.ous-e.?
25. .t,\ . 'tes . .
.Q _Do you
. ~now n man by the name of Tex Watson?

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t JL -Yes ..

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Wa$ h~ alr,10. ins'ide the car?
Y.es.

J: show you People' a 3'6 fors- identific ati.on-,. do you

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know wh.o- is shown in tl;iat pllot9g;ra.ph?
6' ' 'Yes~.
7

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~ q:i~cus-~f9l1
was there,. an;y:i i??, th~ _u$1' w~th- respect

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t~ the p~rchase of iar1juanaZ

,-ction: ''y:oi.l~ Hono'r~

.}~ ' HR. FITZ'GERAl;,D! ; Ob-j ' ., call.ti for

14

1s- . Also I would lik:e to inte~pos e an objecti~ n on

1~ the l'e.levance- and xnate:ria lity ground as to Patricia
){renwin ke1. May this be limi;~ed -test.imo ny?
THE ~COURTt 'l:he obJeatio n is a.ustaine:d on the hear$ay _
" . ground .
'
.The t&$timony is Q~ing.o ttered solely ?gainst
Mt\ Manson. -
IvIR. .BUGLIOSl : Yes, you:r Ho,no;r.
. ~a , _THE;' COURT.: . All r~ght, the J u;r:iy, is aclmoni.ah ed to
24 oons;ider the testimon y or - t:n:J..s witne.sS. wi.th ~espect to-
--_ 2s . I4t>.. i-~an$ on onlt and. :not as to ~ny of the ot-iier defendan ts
BX, ivlR. BUGLIOS-I'.: Wh_at i;litteuss ion was had- :1:n~j.de

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 of' the car .-;ith ~~spet to the puroPaS1;:1 of marijuana?
. 2 On Franklin> o~ _,...
H

. 3, ', On Frank;l1n Boulevard. You say you were parked

an(l.. -~ou \'ZerG seutt:cl in c:b.e car ~;n:l.ch w.is pa.r:t-i:~d outs1de ta.e
ap~~t~ont,houae.
6

At ab~ut 6900 block Franklin, is that correct?

,8
Thats c.orrc-ct\
9 .kt ab out ll: 0 O p .m.. ?
.Rit7it.
H. tlhat di3Ct\S~10tJ. was r~ad in t'.be t:a~ With respeot
to tl1~ Ptu?cha:;e of mti.r1j.usna?
13
lfoll > o.c.t~i1lly _w.c all got in the car and we left.
H .. Wa~. thero nny discussioti in the ~ar aboijt
15. ma:rijqann before you- leif't?
l(t
tJo;, not really, . we. j u-ot knoued wnat we had to do:.

How tl'id you know WbQ;t :;-0u were. Oing to hav~ to

:18 do?.

20. and eo o.noth'er plaQ~ and c:.et 1 t.

i.

21 Q.
'
When yo.u r;ay
'
tt~tti~d:i H you mean ma.r:t.Juanaf
. ) ...
22' ......
23 . 0,'
.24 anyone lD.Qrtey.?
Yes.
.,

s '
 Del.
-
2 How much ,non~y .did y<)u give Qlm?

- f
3, 2400.
. ' ~

,& Yes-, sir.

.
~
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6
'
I ,, Where were you and DeJ. at the time you gave Del
_ 1 . . $2J400?.
A. :!n the car_
. ,
. ,.l
~ .. 'this wa-s wllen- the car -was parked 0t\~a1de the
:IO apartment house?
li No, att_er I 1ef~ that l'esiaence and I .. wanted to ~..

.12 All ri~t, t:tier.e .wtt.a ho d:Li:s_cus.sion then ouf;.side-

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13, the ap-al'"tment house,With ;respe_.c;t tc buying mar1Juana?

,-
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Not really~ . I don tt recall ati:Y-
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1i A.. ,
. ' . ,_ ' ! I
15'. . Bu:t> e'iin:ybnet j'ust knew you we-re going to gQ to
il I1nt, ),. ts/,hi:ti
. . ~b~t- you w~re sa;y;t.ng?.
. ...

, 17 Ai' _;
I ~
:./i~s;
-
we ~"1 ."befo~e
11, ~
ww. ~ent'
~f O ;. .... '!
there~
~
t<, --pick the
up ~- :
I -

lB
:, neople
"
. '.. '
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I ~ .. ' - ,_ '!. '

,. . ~
J~s-t roonien-t.': J... , tbat 'Qij~~t;ion:: was. ;l.e:ad:L~.,
0

i9
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1.t' the court please. _ .. . , .. . .

J : ~ I ! ~.. ; '
.L'lfE C.OUR'.r,:
1 Suat~:t11e4: . .
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2~ '

. ~ii - Q - BY MR.. BUGL:tOSl; : No-w., did r,ou and Del and Jimmy
.and etev~ and Tex Watson and Roatna tti-1ve ~o El *onte?-
~4'
Ye1;1,~ .

- 2ii '

26-
Do
}J'Qt.
Y'Oll know where you drove-
c>tthand., no.
tp- 1ri El Mont'ef

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 21.,695

1 :ra:rdon?
2 A. Not offhand., no.. Sorr_y.
t ! .

Q Wllo was driving the oar?

. 4 I was
5 , And :where did you stop the oar in El i1onte, in
-6 front of: where?
'7 A I was in front of an apartment building.
8' :

JO'.

12-. .

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22

23

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]lo you know what st:reet it was on?

' 2

4
A
Q
l. don't t believe I. can :recall the stre~t .-
,\.fter you s~opped the cai in front of this
apro;tmen~ .buildin_~ in,. El 1-fatite, ,~hat!. is t~e neltt. thing
l:> ,that! happened?
J,. At tl1a.t: time he had asked. fo-r the nton~y ~ ~nd

7 ...
.,
he .said he woqld 1;,e back in 15 ot 20 .minute~--

when you say 11 be, u to t-1hom are you referri.ng1

9
A .. Charlio Watson.
10 "
q So a.f'.te.t you parked thQ car Charlie vlat1;Jon
n asked fo~ the monoy?
A. . Ye~.
13 tmd did you nee anypne .give him money?

15
A Yes, after I geve ~t to J.)el an4 Del gave it
to him, .aftel;' a short,. brief conv:crs~tiom .
Q t'ou gave Dal $Z400 than outside the apart~ent
17 building in El Monte?
18
, A ~ight.
i,9 ,.
lmd tllen yo~ SEM Del giv~ Tex Watson the.
,,

A !es.
Q. t'1hat discuss-ion was had at that .time with
21_1
respect to the purcbose 0 ma~iJuaa't. 1
' ' ' 4 ~ i ~1 ""- ' ,

li -Wel.11!- l/Wa~ ..und(;a~ the impression that the: money .

~ t ~ ~
25 : never had t
" 1

lea"<te. ~- , ,
. ' ,..
' % "
t .. f - - . ' ') -

MR~ I<ElTHt 'Mo'(fe to strike ~tl;lat ,on' the groun4 .lie:.:ts.

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...
,f ' ~
 5d-2 l offering .a conclus-:1.on, he Wa$. under the imp;ess.ion._ ,
.

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2 THE COURT: !lead the questS.0n, ~. Ho-llombe.
;

3'' ('Whereupon the reporter ~eads t~e pending

4'
.
question.)
... . . . ,i
5 , 'tB,E COURT-: Overruled, you may answer. The mot.ion 1.s.

, .
7 '.BY MR. BUGL!OSI ~
8 Q You may answer the question, Mr. Crowe ..
g '
A Wl:lat was that ag~in?
10 Q . tfuat discussion was had in the car concetn.il,ng
the_ p1,1rchase .c,f JiiariJuana when the c:ur was pa:d<ed outside
the ,.ap~.tment. buil,ding in ll ,Monte?
A, ,At that time I had the impre.s sion that th(; money
:,-.'.
' '
' ' '14 . woul.d ti,evqr 1eav.e rny presenc~ until, you know, the niarij:Uan,a;
1 s 'ila!3' thexe, and we -~batecl that a few minutes; and th~n t
16 : _ said; u It s yotn: ,:espons.ibility, Del, '1 and I gave hiln. the
17 money and he save i.t to him~ ,and ~t tha.t point, that, is'
' . ', '

~8 when the c()nversat'ion end~d"

~
19 . ne got out ox the car and I went to.the
2Q a.parbllent building
....
2~ Q Did Mr. Watson say anything about getting
A
~

22 Jlla:t;i,1 u.ana?
23
A 1es ..
24 What -did he say? ~ ~~, ...
'
25

2~
He. ,aay he will .bring: ;t~
.nid Mt'.
'

:Wat$onl " t~it;:get out

- "' J
q\l.~ 1S
,
or 20 minutes.
of 'the: cart
..

' ' ~ I ~ - ::,.,1, ' -, ' 1

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-"'...- ... 1ve~corn : : ~ r.. , /.f,.

 .
..21,6$3
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l 'A Yes;at t~at time.

2. '

6 .
4,
,:
-9
inside.the <;:ar?
A.t the time he got ~ut did evexyone ~'.lse :tte.main.

Yes.
Dld you see Mr. Wa:t:son ~ter the aparttne1't
6 buU4ing?
'
1 A Yes, because no sooner he .enttered the apartment

. '8
. buildi~g, i;in.d I j 11st: allt:<:>maticnlly jtUnped out of th~ c:a.r to
9
se~ :whe~e he was goin&-
10
Attd at that time he, you know,,he ditappeared-
11
, Q. So you. saw him enteX" the apa.:c-enient build~g?
' . ' ~
12
Yes.,
''
:is: . Q Did you.$nt~~ the a~atb:llent building at that
-:- 14,, . ; ~itn~?
1~.. A Yas. -
1~ - Q Imm.ediate-ly after he -did?
11 : . . A 'ies, but .he ~i~sp"are(l. I did not see., what
_18. . -apa'ttment he went tl\to"
' ' .

.... . 19 Q ~at happened next?

20 A lit that tune I -came back to the car I X sat
..,.
21 ;
down ~d we were ta-lidng11
' .
I said nwetl, :tt pr.ob.ably, would be .okay. 11
23 ,
~ I
'And we waited ,for :about .an hour and ~ half, -

' .,.

24

25
~o bon.is. He. never .sh<3wed up so. we left then and. went .
. . back. to the
. '
apartment
. :ln Ho-llywood
. .on Ftanklin Boulevard~
. 26
0., , . So, Mr.. Uatson then llad $2400JI you sayt is- that

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 21,699

correct?
l

2
A Right.

3
Q And he entered the apartment building, is

4
that correct?

5
A Yes.

6
Q, And he said he was going to get some marijuana,

7
is that correct?

8
A That 1 s right.

9
Q, You have to answer out loud.

10
A That is true, yes, sir.

u
Q But he never came back out of the apartment

12
house?

13
A Right.

14
Q And you never did get the marijuana?

15
A No, I did not.

16
Q About what time was it when this happened in

17
El Monte?

18
A It was about 12:30, close to 1:00 when we

19
left.

20
Q So this is about 1:00 a.m. now on the morning

21
of August 1st, 1969, is that correct?

22
A Right, correct.

23
Q And then you drove back to the apartment house

24
on Franklin Boulevard in Hollywood, is that correct?

25
A Thats correct.
26
Q What is the next thing that happened?

CieloDrive.com
 .,;.-11 .--

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21,700
1
A At that time Rosina had called out to the ranch-
2
MR. KANAREK: I ask that that be stricken, your Honor,
3
that Rosina called out to the ranch, as hearsay, a conclusiot.
4
There is no foundation for it, your Honor, over
5
and above the continuing objection.
6
It is a voluntary-statement.
7
THE COURT: Do you wish to be heard?
8
~.. BUGLIOSI: Well, if I'm heard at all on this, your
9
Honor, it ahould be up at the bench.
10
THE COUkT: Well, it appears to be a conclusion.
11
The objection will be sustained and the answer
12
will be !tric~n.
13
BY MR. BUQLIOSI:
14
Q Did you enter Rosinas apartment in the apartment
15
house?
16
A Yes.
17
Q, On what floor of the apartment was her apartment 7 , .
18
5e fls. A The second floor.
19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

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 21~_70J.,.

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; 5e-l l And who. wa..s in the apartment at that time bt!sides

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4
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,y.oti and ll<;>FJina:?
A. Del, Jim., Rosina and my&elf .
And did Rosina make A tel~phone call at that.time?
,

5 Yea ..
,6
. In so~r pr~~ence?
,::, I

. 1 Yes.
s
i Did she say where she was_go~g to oa111.
9
tes.;
10.
MR. KANAREK.; ObJ'ect, on the. g~ounds ot hearsaf-
.. May that. be ijtriaken;, rour Honor?
_1? ~HE COURT:_ Wait 0~ ,the ruli~g.

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14

15
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D;f5FENDANT t,IAUSON:

aheacl., Irving, and teJ.~ the truth._-

x.lR. KAi'iAREK:
'

Your- -Hono~,- I
(Fron the hold~:p;g ;robm)

will object :to that-

Let hi'm go t/

lQ.
.qu,es~i.on -Ob. i;h'e ,g:rqurtds /# your Honor~- that it s.olicitlii
F ::. hearsay ,
"' '
,:
)
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aria .there 1~. no fo.undgtion . _
, ~. ' ~t ~. .
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THE 'COUR'r:
.,, IJ:he bbJ.e.o:.t,:on is auatained.. . 'rp.& answ~r
19
i.s s-tr1.cken~ The jur1, is. ajinio_pished ~O. ~is.regard it ..
' :- .II .... ~' ~ ' '

'-26, Q : . .BY JtlR. BOGL.!OSl t , Did R6sina spek. . to ~nyone

over the t.ele:pbQne1 ,. , . r a' ,

'
;ji - ... >
J

MR. KANAB.EK;' 'l1hat calla fQr (I. .conciusion on h:ts .~.art J

y.ou,;r Rortor, hears.ay. There :ts, no fottnd-ation,.
24
TllE ,COURT t Sustained~
r.m. Btl.atlO:SI:
conv~~a~ti-on now, I am j u:at. askins wnether she apoke to
YQur m:mor, 'I am not asking tor the'

' ; '
 -~ 'I - t ,21, 70?
.;: 1

l
~nyone over the teiephone.
"' I "' 1
.., r io -

I {J.tn not ;gett~ng int~- t1e e-x.ac.t CQnV.ersat:1.on at

'l' ' t - , ... ' ',ti. ' ; ,,

th1spoint. ' ,t' 1 ,f' ' (

THE COURT: Unl~ceJ he' W~l3: liatening~l it is; a ci;:>nclusion.'

Q BY MR. BUGLIOS:t: You were p~eaent ins:1,.de the
6 apartment~. is that oort'ect?
-~ 'l Yes.
. '+ And: d1d Rosina p.iolt. up the telepnone?
A. .. yi~s.

lQ: : -~

".H A..

1"2' ' MR, KA~AREK ~ Object, 10.u:r Rono:r ~ that is cali~ng_ f-Q;r
'' 1'3 a conclu3ion. He lias nc way of knowing --
14 in~ .COURT: Th~ objection 1e '.austa.11'.led,, unlesi he was

J,5 ~n the li~e ~ ~. Bug11os:i, he has n:o. way or knowi~g wh~tner

16, Sqe waJ;S talking to $.nyone
17 Q

speak wh:t1e ahe wa.s holding the t~lephone in her hand?

. '
1!) . A..'. Yes.

At, any time the.reatter..Qid you pick up the

21:, telephone?
.
,_

' Q, ' Hpw long af'terr sli~ .Wti.~. pn the' teJ;epb,one did ehe
. : . , _ . :-:--,. .. . ' . ' '

turn the telephone: ove~_ t-~!~u.. 't.___,.~l.r~~-'t{;~~j~,

25 A.., J:!oasibly ;five --.nute:s ~-- ~pe.rnapa,' 111a;ybe a 11t
'
:.
.. IF :-
,,
26. 1110:ve, a oquple o-t minutea. 'j~ -

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~(Ve.com ..
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'i' . . ' ~: Did

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you. talk to- .an,o.ne. on t4e telephone~. '
r ~ -

'A. Ye.s.

2. .

3' ' io whom d.t.d you talk.?

'9, ' '

4 ~;m... K..411.A:REK: I obj eot, ca.J.l1ni ror r;i oonolusion, .

s . he~say, no f.ouncl.o.tion, no: -ehowins _.,..
. ' '
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6 Taat is not the way you prove a telepho.ne ,.
~ 1. . ~onversa.t"ion Iie bas to prove that he haa eome kind ot
.. .
'8 knowlede;e ot the voiee on the other end., your Honor
9 lt is im!)royor
-
i no ro:undation to tha.t.
. . '
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10 'THE COTJJ,i'l': Lay a rc,-undaton..,. r~:.:,-. Bugliosi. Th.e
11 Objection is sustained~
- 12. Q ,. 13! MR. BUGLlOSI: Did: y:ou bave .a con~ers.Q'.tion
ra with someone on the telepho~e?
14 P.. Yes.
i.5' 4 Did- the pel'son with whom you we,:,e talking '--Q.erttify.
l6 _bim1,;elt or he:rselt''l
~7 r-m. X-AliAREKt C'allit'lg tor hearsay t a;, conclusion; no-
JS. :p?ioper f.Qundation., yo.u:r H'.o:no:r.
.;

~ .THE WI'l'NESS : 'tes I

' /

' 2!> itHE OOl)RT: ' . OverrU:led i. /

,~
21 Q BY ?m. BUGLIOSI: -We~e you ~pe~ine to a man,61-
J
/l2

' 23 .A man.

-
24- And what
25 the phone?. .,.
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2~- MR~. K~N~~~:: 1 . O'bJ:ect, ~alltng ro:z. hea:vsay ~ ~ conclusion
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 l yotW HQnor improper iol_ltlclat10.

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2 DEFENDAUT HAli~ON:
cutt1~g my t;hroat.
Will you be quiet., man?
Sh.ut up!
'You are

TBE COUR~i ;,,r~-. Hu~ray., close the door to the detent.1,on

5 room ..
,6 lie.aq; the J,as:t question, Mr. Hollombe ..
' ~- :,
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'l, (tr.ne;re.up.on., the repol.'ter readi, the- pendir,lg

' . 8 question aS. follows:

9 And what 1-dentiticat.ion did the
io man_ fS1Ve you ove~ the phone?'tr)
11 THE. COURlfl: ObJ.eotion sustained, .
1i .Q,B MR. BUGLIOSit .Did the man to whom vou w~~e talkin
say who he was?
MR~ ltANAREK1 That i~ calling tor hear$ar 1 your-
Hoi.10:11~ a conclusion.. There i.s no foundation ..
T.aE OOOET: Overruled.
, i7
T1;{E WIT11ESS t She told me -.-
18 TliE COURT: .ms:we~ that yes o~ no ..
'19- THE WITNESS: Ask the queetion again, please- .
20 Q. BY MR. BU:GLIOStc t-ou aay you were :ape:ak:tng
:2I to .a man ove21 the telephone~ ia that .correqt?
22 Right.

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. yott who he was?

THE W~~lIBSS;
That would
No,. ~ di-d not.
,. _.-----
it 'leap
~_,. .........

hea~,s;ay, youl.". Ho,,.Q.r. .

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 1 -

I ~nE couf.,T: What was,. the -.o.rtew~~t \

I"

2 ( Wt1~reupo~1., the reporter reads. the recoril .. )

Q B-Y UR. BQ<,;I:,IOSI: fiad yo~ ever spok~n to this

5 ,\. - Prior to th_e t.alephone ca.1l?

6 ~ YeiS.
-~
"~
7 A.
8 - Ai1d how long did you talk to _thii3 '!llan"Z
About th;;.1ce Ol" four ~i:inut.es > socethin,; like; that~
10 if it WO.$ that 10U$.
Diel you threaten. tb1n uw.n in any :t"aflihion?
12 i-:R_.. z:AnAREK: That is {lallins for a conclusion) your

-
13 Honor~
14 TiiE Wl.ZNESS: no.
15 'rHE couaT: sustained ..
10 ,Q B J.m. BUGLIOSI: What did _you say ,tQ th-13 ma.n1
17 MR.. KA~fAREK: That is hetiroay~ I object .on the- ground

:tt is foiars-ay; nQ toundation t.ol:t it, your Honor; it is. a

19: : conciusion ..
c20

Q. BY MR. BTJOLIOSI r Do 1011 k:novr Charles Hanijon'l

A, Do I know him.?
23 Y'$-S ..

Which way do you ~ean.? . ,,

. '

. 25 ' MR, KANAREK! That ir:: .ambiguous

THE COURT: Overruled-' .

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0e1o0rive.com
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l Q BY iIR. BU<,L-lOSI t Hav~ you ever met Charles

'2 Ean~on'l } '

3 . fj,., ' J?rio:r 1ptod,ay? ' ..

4 Yes.
5 P:. Yes.
6 Q, . Have yoi eYer ;;:paken to Charles Nansort?
' 7. Yes.
on, app:roxima:',aely' how many ocoasions?
9 .: HR~ KANAREl{: YO.U;t> IIcmor,. ffr;ain I will object to that
10 a::3 cul.lint; for a conolus'ion .
,, ' THE OQURTJ Overrttleu.
1,2 ~l:l}i, WITNESS : FiVe. tiniea .,

.,

,15

16

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19

21

24

26

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 6,,,.J. 1 .: i - BY MR. BUGLIOSI,;

Are you famil;.tar 'With h!_s. voice-?

3 Yes.
4 'Xhia man to whom. yottwe:r:e talking over the
5 telephone inside llo$in~'s apartment, did that appear to
6 be Cha:tle$ Manson:' s voice?
MR.. ~ K : . Obj-ec;t, yottt llonot, on 'the grounds that..
'8 I wouid ask for s.-qoir di:t"e hearing~- on the- grounds tbat
' -
9 it is alli-ng for a conclusion of the witnes$.
We are now tal'lting about at the time that the
11 . ,convex-satio~ took place .-

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1~

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H.,

15,
?HE COlJRT; Th~ objection i-s overruled.
You :i;nay answ~~ the qu~stion.
ti-IE WITNE:SS: ;t vaguely do, the phone call, at the
,

time.
nm: COURT: tlu! answer :ts non-t'esponsiv.e.
17 "Re~d the 9,t1e$tion.
18 (,:he question wap ~cad by the repoxter-.).
. .
MR. tu~K! Tht;J.t is leadiug and suggestive and
.
29 -calling or g oncl;us:ton.
. :' 2li THE COURT: Ov~tuled.
.' 22
' .
You .may answer.. 1
: \ ~-

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THE 'Rl'XNBSS: I sm tiot. thal;;' positive.
, ,..
It was the
that

first time I hea?;"d: his Voice . --
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25,
lllJGLIDSit ~ Now, looking back;- did that
-25
appear -.to be Mr. Manson s voice? .J~\

'! (
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 21,10a
6-2'. 1 :, )JR. ~ K ; Ob~ecition -on the grounds ,that the
... ~ : pr.ejudic.i,al value far ou~igh_s t~ probative value, and
,. call:i.ng for _-a conclu.sion and bea.1:say.
4 ~ TBE GOURT: It has already been aeked .and an.swered.,
' '
5
?he objection ill be sust~ined.
6
.BY lilt, BUGLIOSI:
,,.J
' ..

Q You are ttQt positive whether it wae Mr. Mansons-

'8 v.oice.?
g
A Not at t.he time a
.
no .. '
10. Q, Did it -appear
. eo .be Mr, Man$QJ.l t f,', 'Voiee Xt.O:tf, \

ll .
in .looking back?

-
1~ MR.. KANAREK: I object. .It is ,calling for -conje.cture
. .
.. . ., 'J$ ',
.. ' and aoncl'2,sion.
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14 MR. BUGLlOSI: A witness tloesnt have to be positive
15
about the identificatio n of a voice.
: i6, : , , l am .asking hinl '.if tt is h:ts op;utiQn based on
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17 subsequent conversation with Mr. ~son that it was Mr.,
Manson. ,
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tliE COUJ.tf: 1,~t' s find o~t 'if he h~s an opinic;,n :.,/ .

you have an o~inio~ on the sgbject as ta

Do
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22
I 1
whetller .or not i.t wa.$ .z.tt. :M'Anson on tbe telephone?.'
23 1tml wtrNESS: No.. I d rather say I do not.ii.
. .24: ' . ~-

:.A_
. ,., BY l-nt. BUGL!OSI:
Q .A:ftC?~ you spo~ to ,tb,i~-
I .

wan ove-r the telepllone,.

;1:
' ' r I

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what is the D!!Xt thing haJipell~~? ; . _. _, , .~ f ,;

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'-~. Jrfye.COITI
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 . 6-;8. A
1 You m~an, in th~ cou~s~ of the convets ation i

:j
2 on th~ phone between e $,ld Manson2
.3 ~ No. After yo~ had tne. conversation with the'
4 man ove:t the telephon e, what is .the very next thing that
happened ?
... A ;t left tne np~r.tme1_1t ~
,7 Q -'Where did you go?
8
A l.weQt to a f~iend omines residenc e and I
9 retutned .
10
Inside. the same apar.tni.ent. house,?
. ,,

A . .Nt>. I :Left. the P.:temise,s .and I -went to . another

p~~t o! Hollywood.
13
~ .At. sOl)le l~ter ti.ma, -did yo~ retu~n to .B,osin1 1 s
M : ,ap~rtment.?
15
,, A Jes, I. dtd.~
-1'
16 Q. About what tim.e1
i7 A .Allywhete between 45 minutes to an hou~; someth
18- in that area .
19 Q Later?
"
~o A,' YeQ.r
21' q this would be app~oximate1y what t ~ in the
.22 moxning?
~3 11. It could have been rougqly around 2:00*

;- 24'

2S,, :

~-
Q

, A
oclock.
2:00 a.-m . 1
:,
1:.30 or 2:00~ Somewhexe be.tween l:30 artd 2.:00

" ' ,' .. t'.

 ..... _
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~

.6-4 .i ln the m.o.rni~g? ( '!

3
A
Q
ln the morning.
Did yo~ zeturn to the apartment with anyone?
Yea.
5. Q Who?
A Stev~ .

~ w.hen you entered the apattment, was anyone

8 ' ~lready in$ide Rosina's apartment?
9 " J,.' Yes ..
Who "tas inside the apartment1
Charles Manson, and anothe~ gentleman standing.
there.
. Do- you know his name-?
14' A' Not offhand,.
Q ~oes the natQ.o t.J .. ~ing a bell?
16 A Yes., it does Ii
tt 0, Was that the man that was v:th Manson?
18

,. ' 19 Was. anyone else inside the apal't~nt?

A -Yes.
... ~

!?l 'Who?
A Rosina, StevE!, Delj myself and T .. ,J.

24

CieloDrive.com
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; 6a-l
~. Cbar4es Hahson?
:,,
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s 1, ies. ..
,t.' 'Q,, - Did you.. see 2s1r. Hanson?
~ ' '

,,
-. + ;5' ~

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Po yo.u know 1r1her'e lle \'tq.S seated :tn the ~ortroorn?

r ,

7 '~
tre ....
.:.,C,i

Q,' Where? ~ ,..

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A. . <'fil,Ght, :pei.t t:o. the atfo).'lney there, bet-w~en the

. ~ ' t ~:, ', \ . . . ., l

$eer~~f~~, 9'!, the

.. ~ . ',.,, _,.
:<i;>u,.t _an~, th,e
t'-,. ,, ,~ l .
att~r.n;ey,. ,:
~,-.i,:~ + ,' .... ",

: .,.Q. , Wo1fld you point it out? ,

.' , ' J2, '

'J;heJ:-e . .-~ ( 1h4:t,aat1.r1g,i') ~.:

t ' ' ' .
. ' ' '. 'y Ii< '
,, ,... "' ~ ' ! ' ' ,: " .
l I ''I." sf-

,.,.
' ... ,_..
'

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. i,:t1he. chai.r ~!got hel."'e?

~ -;; ~ '( '

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: JS
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16 . that t1r. r,lan:;ion wa~ seateci th1f! chair ~arJ;.ier toaay? 1

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THE COURT: Yes> th. rec,ord will eo -indicate,.
18 BY MR . BUOLIO.SI:
~ J ;. '

Q.. _ Wa~ that the f:t.rst -time that y-ou ha:d aver ;:3een
.20 . f;.r., Manion? .
Yes.
. ;~_2

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MR~ lHl,GLIOSI: :toll.r H.onor, I'. bav~ here a phQt9gxa4:pb ,.._
.,,
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" , ' '

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) 5 , ,, . ,
.
in . .fa:et.' -t~o phot9g;raph$
.
,....... a, sid-e view
.
~rid a ftontal, .
... ., -~6 .._. v!ew- -ot- a .ntal~ ca.ucas1an.:
. ' ,:.
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. CieloDriw.coni .
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1 ~"1ay :t t be markfj(l a-a People 's J?;,...1?

2 TE:E 00.UUT: It .ma;y- be J!Q markecl.
' .

4 '.
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BY I-IR.~ BUGL-IOSI t i' .: .

Q,
(

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,
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:,c allow you People's p-1.

t
J ....
,J'
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' '., ;; ' ' ... '~ q ''f ' ... ~

$ ~ bo you kn?.W ~hb i'i ;,.epic~~ci Ii~. tha~..-Ph?t9a;raph?

6 Yes .. t ': ;;.
.,,t. d ' j

.. 1 Wh() is that~~ , . .~ ,., I ;

,' 1-

,8 Tne gentlen1an that w4s. -st1tndi1'lg by t'h.e door.

't I '_ ' ' f { fl' '
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9, .Q Standir.g :by what door?

10 A. 0.f Rosina,' s apartment that night,

11' Q: Wat? this the man. that was with !lr . Manson?
12

lS: Whom yo~ call ir~J.?

.J '
9: 14' Y~&.
15 What i's the next. th1ng t-hat l;lappened, ~-'" Crowe,,
16 a.fte:r you ent~red Rosinat $ apar-tme:nt?
17 We walked in. I oan"t .quite :remember Wbifther he
18 was intr.oduce'c1 to mei or w.hetne:r he 1:nt:tfQduced .himself.
.19 When you say nhe,u ~hom are you x-e.f"E;trng to?'
io Charlie tians.on.
21 However, he $Ot t.tP and 1:$hook my hand) and l
;.
22 sat dowrt,, and we, talked.
23 1 Artd h~ said.: It doean ~-t .So\.lnd like Tex would

' - '
24

26
do something like that.
I.ffi:. K(1.NA,REK;

grounds -of hears~,,

Il1ay-
Tha-t Ji~ my b.rother, you know.
I ask that that be stricken on the

,.'
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 21,713
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i Tim COUR';I:: The answer wi11 be str~cken.
;>.:

:a i-s admon:tsbod
,
to d:t.a.reg~vd.
I

4, Bt lIR .. , BUGLIOSI:
' .;. .
, ,5 What dip. ~'yg.u "siy to i;r ~ Uan::wn and what ~:ttd be
',' . ~ '

6 s~y .'to "''ou? . ,

V
1 - . ,
, ._,, " .. ~ ~'
~' ,( ,r' , 'I ~ ~ ," ,I,:,' '\ + ,..,. ' ~
7 . -;... : Well, -he ~saidith-at .h:t.'~~,el!' o:r' none ot his people
~. '
s llad anyth1n$.to. do w:1.th what CharlieTex Watson had done,
~ ~
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~. ; ~ :I; ,' ,:.,-_' " ; .~.. \ ,

-ne
1 f"

,9 ana the;;- l'leren 1 t ;r.e:::1ponsib;le. .for what nad ddne.

J.O'

1~ done~l' .

1:~ t,JR. KAUAREK:, Your Honor, ma.y tne wittiess be allowed.

:,.,.
,.,, l}

-14i
to finish his answe:r?
. i-lr .Bugliosi at that point~,
I th1nlc he was interrupted' try

J~, THE COURT! Go a):J.e&.d, ;1r. Croi:"8.

i;l.'6 THE WITNESS: Whepe was I?.
17 ' MR;, ~UGLJ:.OSt ~ J. tbin'.k YOU J:.nd'icat~d., Sir, that
. ,

is- . Ml:>-f l l ~ tQl<;i rou that be ws.s not responsible for what

~
19 H:r. ~.hf;.l;d done; is that co:r:rect?
,,~Q
A. Yes.
~
~

~l Q Did you aver t.ell r,:r. Hanson wha~ Mr~ Wat$On had
~~- done?
';!~- ,MR~ KANAREK-; Leo.ding, and, 11uggGst:1.ve, fOlU" Honor, ~.
Object-ion ..

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No,. !,..,,., :never
...... -~-~r:ieritioned
-~ ~
it,.
-~
26, THE COOET: Overx-ule<t", -
 THE, WlT!iESS: In my own words~ I never mentioned

3,
anything.
BY ~m.
Q
aUGLIOSI:
Now., did t-1r. r.lqtJ.~on indicate: t~ you, tn- any
5 ta11hi-on, -whethe:r,, he was,tne pe~son to whom you had spok~n
over the tel~phone an ho~~ or so ~arlier? f f ..

1 A. oi,..., yes/ ,' ,.

.J !I"'- : r
:8 MR. KAi~:AREK:
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lO THE COUfi,T: ov.erru.led;,i,

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ldlt . BUGLIOSI: Q What _,lid ue eayto.you'l . ,

Jrt
2 , ) "',1, "I

A lte sa:t.d1 Like I Was- tellittg JOU OD 1:he. phone._

. . .
a
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~- : actiona. We don t know wheite be is...
s Q Let: s go baok to..the .c::onversatiQn over th,!
e ,
-~ te.lephone,.
. . . '
1: ,..
~

What did. you. 81!.Y to Mr. }fm.,:son. and. what did he

.a . say io you?.

!i MR.., KANAREK: Yor llono1~'-:, I mu.st object t(). that.

10'
The. ~a.me'tul~a apply now Af applied a few n:tinutes q~.
11
tt is conotusion, it ia hearsay~ Tbexe is no foundatiQn
:i..2 f9r it.
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Ma. ::auGLtOSI: Be .baa al;ready ~estf:ffied1 Ylillt&r Hou.ox,.
:th4t Mr; Man~on. ind,tqated 'f.:ha-t he W&$. _-~be .man be. had just
$p9ken ta 0-ver the phone.
16
Ma. lWWmK: B~t tlds ques.tion is still iiapt'o~rt.
l7'
-no XDEJ.tter what this witness says.. 'Xhat. doe.an .e authentic.ate
18 11ny previ'()us- conversation.
~- 19
tHE. -COURT t the obj.ectiqn :ts SU$Cained,.
. 2!) BY MR- 'BUG!;;tos:r l
~~

_ -2i q What is the next thin:8 that happened. a:fte~

. _. '
-~- ' Mr. Mansqn told you that
. ' ' he was: not reBponsi;ble fot what '

2S, Mr. Wat~on had dont;;'l

24 A What happened afeet th4t1
Q Yea,.
: 26. '. A Well, at $at time, I can-tt-rexaember what the:
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1 : last statement 1ias. that was .made bsfor~ the. i}lotJon 01:
#" ";: 1 .. ' . ... ~: ..
2 acti.vity took place, but:' he got up """" I me~n, he -"sa:t.th '
' , . 3 . Of cou-rse, l came 1:~-ady.: 11 , :i ; :

4 ' ,. '. '\ '' , . -

Ind I said --
Let'$ takG. it a little more.- slowly< now.::' :,
. ..... You say he got u.p. ,
Was .he seated som.ewh~re?
' ' .
1-
A Yes_; lle was s:ttti:ng on the edge of the bed.
..., '

. ,,8
Q, Andwe~e yo.u s~tting some.where?
~
A Yes. In a chair.
10 '
Q. And wero the other people still. in tp.e apartmetitf
'.n
A Yes
.1~
Q. .t\11.tl how long were- :you talking to hit4 befo?=4! you

: ... 1-3' ,.

i4, ,,
say-he got.
A
ap?
I think ~bout tett o:rt fite~m minui;:es, ltoU$hlY.
lty ..
He d~ne mos~ of the talking~
~6,
~.'' 'l'hen you say he: got up ,;.om the .bed; ts that
17
correct1
18
Yes. He got lip ...
.19 lo'
When he got up, did you also get up?
,'
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:~i -

Yon:iemained seated 1,.n the chair7

'

22 ..
A Y~s.
2S :'."
lJhat is the nex.~ t:h-ing that happened'l
. ~4 ,

Of coul!sej I
r'< ' A well, he got Up;. and he. said:
2S
a~e 1:eady.
And then he backed up~ little bit, and he ta

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 :.t.J., IJ.. I

1 putted nrevolver ou~. of his belt ~d.~tarted pulling

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the tl:i.gs.er ,..

about :four titnt:?Si

C' .,
... ,
: . '!
' '

! s,aict1~: \-Jhy do
.
And in the \coip:se; of,. the t:uigger being pulled.
~ +: t ~ ~.'

r.oi.t
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-~

'pu1~: d. ~ . ~n _mel .: I:
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...
~ ' -,

'
t ..
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<U,dnlt
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pull one on you. ,"'\. +
. t
6
i..nd he kept pull:i.ng tlie 't:r.~gse)t. . ~ ~ :
1 So; I rnado an att~pt to g~t out of the .chai't' . .
' '. 1 l
t \ii' '
. 8
to go

for liim - ... I msan, tow~ds him ... I was

..

gomg ta
1 ... '
save'
myse~, Ol: wb.a.tevor ,.
io And at that eime., AS I le.med forward, the
gun shot ~3ain 1 .and h~ said: This ottc is loadad.
:.\nd I fell 't>a.elt in. the ch.ctr, and l loo~~d, and

-- 13.

,15
then.. :t tried to go forwttl.:'d again, and then
. . q
t:iJnes?:
.

You say he pullec;l the trigser th;ree or fou,:

t fell.. .
.

i6 Ii.. Yes. About four.- times . Three o:r: four t:tmes,

~1. yes.
18. ; I''\'
, But the revol~er did nc.t ire?
~ 19' No,
' .
' (:I, At".d then he tqld you: This Qne is loaded?
"
21: -Yos ii '!This one ic loaded, n ,1,\s l made another
... ;!2 '
nttcspt~ mo.de ~y f:l.rst cttempt'to got out ~f the ~hair.
23,
t"md tt1is time y9u 1-1e;t"~ sl1ot?
I shot. .l:.n.cl. I -fell back. int.o the ch~ir .

W~$

And I turched again to g_o .eo.:m,ard. 1'\nd then I e11.

26 : A, Where 1-,ero you 3hot"l

-.t ... -' .IAC"1I l!'"Ne.com

. ~~- :-.
 1 In the stomach.
.,6.c-1 ~ Q ' Could you point out the spot on your stomach,
. 3

A Right her~., .
. '
MR. l3UGLIOSI: M~y tJl~r ;reto):d .':;reilect the w;:.1::ness
~ I ' ~

> ' ... .. t -~ i- ,'

is indJ.cting the lo.ft lower .:abU:om~lJ. 1 yc:,ur Honor?

t

,7 THE COURT: ls that ,correct, 1-lt'-.. Ctzowe'?

.,,.
., ' THE WITl~.SS!, Ye$ .. Right here. , I don.t t ~o-w 'tvl;i,a~
, ', I / 1 ~ ,l -1 '-,

9
'-part it: i~ .
10, '
Tl$ COURT: 'Xhe. record -will $0 it1dicate. , :"'
11. 1-lS o BUGLIOSI: Did you see the ~evolve~ in
12 Mt. Mansott s haqd?
13 A Vagt.1ely, yes. .
:i Could you describe the :r.evolver for the Judge
;1.S
and the Jury?
A It was n lortg one
' J,7 You say long. :tn what fasl1ion? Was the
JS -bar:rel long?
19
A Yes. Sc~etbing like t;hut: one tber.e.
1 sho:w you P.cople s 40 for identificatiqn,.
Rave you evr=r seen that :revolver bef01:e?
22'
A. Yes. :tt looks like it.
.But I w.as ~ distance away ..

-
This looks like tho revolver that Mr. Manson _,,.,
;s . had in hi$ hand$ when h~ shot you'i
2,6 . '
A t-Jhy don t t you point it at, me. Then 1 could tel.1.
 l:
something like. thi.a?.
' 2
Ye$,. Could be.
~t never had ~hli-8. Qn it, of course?
4
(Ref'erriug to the exh:lbit t&g-.}
'S
,. -
- A t~o. De.finit~ly not.
6
. ,Q But ot:11~:rwis~ it looked 1 lj.!5e :this?
' , '
A Yes. :, --~ . , ! 1

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lie was about ttQJIL ,,here, you ~e~e s,it;ti?S at:.

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and t was over he:ttQ .. ~ .
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He was ~bou-t right hero. i -re;f.atio'1, ~o you? ;, _,

, "" ~ ':t , I ,. r, r,
11
A Right. Ritht in tha,t 'distance.~ ~ ' :
' '1,2
Q. Well, let's na~row it down. ,cioae:t\,:
~

or fa1:thel', II,- ~. , r I ' '":r

! , ' ~. .' ' ' ,

or -what'?.
14 _
A ierhaps a little closet.
15
About t_ight there. Somewhe,:e. arou~d thei-e,
16 '
MR.. '.BIJGLIOSI! .May -the record reflect an approximat$
' 17-
distance of 15 feet,_ y9ur Honor?
18
THE WI'tNE'SS: Uould you mo-ve .back a. littlE!! bit7
Yes, soin.awhett'! .arounq .in- there ..
20
Tim CO'CJR.T: Approximately.
21
'l1HE. :WITNESS! ~ppr9x:i;m,ately.
' .
:SY 'MR. WGLIOSI:

24

onto tbe floo1:?

2!> -:
Yes. ..- t1-:i~
. - - ~-,, -
.And what did you_ c ; l ~ timef Did you
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rettrain on the floor?

,,3

4
k. Well, at t~at tirna,
get up,. und then :tnt.u:tti.on said "Play possum. u
So,. t. played possum a.nd held my breath..
I -m&de a mental attempt to

5 When you say n~r~yed possum; ,r yQu mean. p:Layed

6- . dead?
7 ' A Played dead; ye~t.
.- o. But while you wer9 on tbe ground
,, ,. I :
OT on the
g. ,'
floor j l talt~ it you wer.e not lookf9-g, ~t Mr. Mansonl?
:;,. l r ~ !' ,

10

1],.
A.
.
.No, I ,iasn t . - t

After Mr. ~~$On sbot you? and

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Q. .,~~l~ y~u w~e 1
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12 still on the ground, did you henr Mi;. M<:l-n'Son say' ~nythirig? '
.
1
A Yes . I~ :
. i' t. ~

14
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He told my friend .....

15
MR. l<A...~EK: I ob}ect on the .gr9oods'. o;f; . he~r$ay~ It;
16
is after th~ event is over, iour Honor.
1,7
THE COURT: Overruled.
18 You may anmver.
).9
THE llI!NESS: What wns that again?
im.. BUGLIOSl: you were on tl:l.e groul).d ""-
:W$ll:t ~ftcr
on the floor-~ mid yo~ were playing deady did you he~r
22 Mr. Man:;1on say anytlt:i;ng inside the apartment?
:>.a. . THE WITNESS: Yes.
HQ tol~ my friend Steve tto-give him the $hirt ~; .... --:
' ' /
that h~ was wea~:tng,_ whtch earlier, as we approached '
the .,...
~

26 apB,l:'tment, made ol.1r .entry, he c;t?~P:lim~~ted Steve on the

 1 shi:t'.t,,. whiclt is a rust a6lore(l suede sh,ir.t with ringes
ea
I. e 2-, '' banging -down.
B? MR. BU~_I-OSI:
And he demanded Steve give him the shit-t-.

4 Q, Mr. Manson ,1inte<:l Steve ,l s $hirt?

Yes.

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----,-.,..,.,.,..-,---,-,-,--,--------------,---,,--------a--~----.-----~- .. ----------- -- - - -
2:i.., 72.2
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6d-l I . Q. _ ~ou don't ,know w~ether Stev.e. g$.ve hirn the Shirt?

;. ;
A 'When he lertA Steve didntt bave no shi~t on.
Q But at that part~cular point, you we~e not
watch:l:ni r-u-. 1-!anson and -Steve.?
.5 Na> not really ..
6 Did you near r,r:tt. i 1anaon 11ay anything in additi>n 1

1. : to- that?
-4-"..
,;. A.
. . .. ~ ' ~ .
, ,1 ' '
'!)' ..
A-.tte~ he ~$ked S.teve tor his sh'.il"t, l h,eard.
I , ' ti ' , l ./- i .' :i
Steve ~a-1 !',: SU:r~> brother. You .know. And I don 1 t know
. " . . . ' I
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what haPP,bE!cl after that- ....... ' '

,. ; r _'1 '~
-~ . -

J2. - He gave I!anson bis sh.1rt, anc.. then he said --

. . - . . . ' -~ . ,i :

- Q,

A.
When
Ile said:
you :say_: "~e/'

at>- o~ 8.'tt~.-r~ness throuch tea~ :Ls-.. Where: it !ls 1at.

. .
Fea~ th2'Qugh awarene.ss,_1~ where it is
. ' .
W{ldm- ,'do

. . ' ,.
yo1:t . m-ean 'l.
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1~ Fear .~hrough aw4reness is whe~e it is at?

:. w " ~o.. F.ea:r- through aw~e.ness :ts wher~ :l:t i~ at~
ls: : or awairene:as through tea:r is whel'e it 1a at,,
, , 19: . Something to that f:.ffee,t.
20. wn~t is the next thing> it anytb1ng 11 tlla-t
- 21 i,Il-. Nanaon said or did?
I think va~ue1;y :t can 'r!3call ... _ I am not too
posit:iv~ -- that I nea~d him say, trllow we are even 11 to
so~ebQdy the:re" And lat.e;c- on I .found out that he had lti1;-sed
. .
th.is te-1.1.oira f'oot and s~id, 11 Now we are .even. n Which w$.is

. 26 Del ,_l;l toot.

 2l,723

.And I heard him say: :tr you people knew wha~ is

good for you, you wou,ldn 1 t mention :p.othing al;rnut this
.e 2

inclde-nt .
Something like th-at. Someth1.ng to that ei'feet.

.5 And then lir., ' Hanson 1eft? ' .

6' Yes ..

7 Q Did he lea~e with ~,J.?

t P.., '.Yes,, tbe fellow he came in- wfth, .r~gp.t.

9 How -long after I.f~. Manson shot you would you

io ~st:lmate he left Rosina 1 s f)'.partm.ent? - c,

:p
'
A J; can say. rough,lY thtee- to
,, ; tl -.. I ~', "'
foul' to r:tve ,rn:tnute~.
12 Somewheret .aroW1d that a.r~a. $ome.whe:re around thre-e to
five ~l'!utet.' 'P" ,: \
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14 .Q, ., . After Hr.,. ~lai').3011 and. T;.J. lett Rm,:J.;na:Cs apartment, .
15 w.nat is the next th1r$, ~~t h~pp1ened? ,
. ' ~ . ' ' '

16 A Well, eve.ryone :ran 'to me on the floor, and, l;

17 t.old themj 11 S~ush, .give ni(!tl ~ ' ' ;,

El, .cxran~~ "to"',ge~ out- o"f 'J;1et'e ~ :it
J- II ' ' :l' '

. ,I d:ldn 1t have any arma .on me at the time.

i9 And. :C aaid: . nuet ts call the a.mb.ulance, and

20 evet*ybQdy. ~et out ot hel>e $ n ypu know, nJuat vacate. the.

21: .t;>lac;,e ~d leave me here. 1t
' . .,.-

,So, they called t;he ambulance, a.ncl ev.cry~tie left.

Then the pOlice.an4 th~ulance arrived at tue
scene. ~~-
24

J1..
And you we~e transported to some hQspitai?
Ye.s.

CieloDrive.com
 .. ..

~724

1
'What ho&pital ~
~ I

-~ Tbe General Hospital.

. . -~r
' ,.
How long we.re you. _hospital.iz~d theret
. 4 ' . A.- 18 .aa:,. . a
.' 5 Q. Were you near death at ail?
. -
. 6 A. kly ilea;1t ~topped t'Ri-oa. I had two ox- three
. .
1 ~olla.pl;t'e.s. 'l1l'1e:, di.dn t _thin~ ~ was. gp:tns to make it...
-~ tl. Was the l:>ullet $till :tn body2
.a Y0\1:t'

!l ; A. : Yes ~ i.t. is.

. .
.. lq . Q t-,a the bullet r~mQVe4 f'rom. y,our body at tht;1
'
it . Gen.E!ra1 l{ospita.~?

.~ Noi it wa$n't~
. J!! ' ' A;
' ' .
. 1'3' Q !~ the buUe~ st1l1 inraur bodyt
,.
Yes, it ia.,
15 Do 1ou know where th~ bullet is located in you~
'i6. bOdJ'f ',
it , . A. Yes.
IS- .. MR. KANAREK: Calling tor a conC1iJa1o~ on hii;s part.
' .
l!t- ' '!r'HE ,QOURrf OV'er~u].ed.
..
. ;m . BY MR. .Bt;TGLIQSI :
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21
. the bulle.t
~- . Whe;r~ i~ '
-1>r~s~ni1y
. looa-ted in you~
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 2l,725

l: You can telJ.-me, I think.

In my back, xnayb-~ kind of close to :my spine,

4 l. don't know where ic it now. They said 1.t ha.s a

-5 tenden;cy, to move.
6 But it tms .s:o~t of olos.e to my ap1ne at the. time ...
.;.
.. '7 Q :tt was lo~ged near your spine?
8

-9

:10_ MR. KANAREK: That has no :relevancy) y:our Honor.

11 Obj-ectior,.. -
I.
. 1'2 THE WI'rNESS.: It is the :tower, f i]Uess,
~HE UOU~T: Over~uled.
BY MR.. BUGLI-0S I 1

~. ,W-he low.er ~pine'i

16 A. I guee:s $0, res.
17 Q, To the le.ft Q/ the spine. or the right. of the spine?
t. T_he lett.
19 Q,

:2p .' we(l?e yol,!, unde~ the, .int.'11:+ence of al~~h~l o~ any type ot a
,. .2i dru$ du:r-ing this incident? .i ..
J
~ '
'

' ,

2s Q. Did Mr~ !il~neon~

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appea:r:- to lHi J.Jilde.r ..th~ :ti;fluence
, , t ,'I , cl, ..... -,, '
- ' < : l ~ ' ;, '- f ~,, / ' I , ._:

24 or alcohol o.UX'ing this j;ncdent?

25 .t,m.. ICAMABEK:
'.CHE COURT: Overruled.
., '

.CieloOrive.can
 l You: may an.swet'.

THE WITNESS: I didn't get a:ny indication. ~ -waan 1t

really noticing.
"4 3.e -taJ.k:od V'l.)'f.':l ..,t;z,aight to t1e, you k.now ..
5 BY. rm. I3U6LIOSI:
6 ~: . Pi~ you bet tbe i~pre~~ion that he was under the
influence of anythin.G,, 4+Cyho2.o.r J.rUJ.J'i
rm. Kl';JlAP.:JX; P~l.l1~G tor .:.1, con.aluuion
.9' '.l'.Ht .COUaT: At that ti:ne7

HR. B'UGLIOSI; Ya::;~

12

I1R. BUGLI0.3.:i;::
t' .,.
Your ir::;praaoion was. that he was. nop.
under ;ch~ in.f.luence of anyth:L:ne;; ic. that correct?
1,6 ','

17 now ..
18 ll
~9 ~... ~.o, I um
1-Y '
now,.
J..,

.2() C Have you ~vet,> oocn a rj.~r:.'!J3l' oi' the Black Pantheri.?
21 A. . NQ, I haven' t
~
,,, 22 e Did irou tell CJ.iarles'. !iap,~on that you were a
membel'.' of the BJ.ack Panth0.t's'?'

- ' .I,
25,

'
,0,.

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Did :you~ a.t,,_ any, 'tib'i.~~ 1 tn' the.
'\

. at any time,. tl;l:reate~ I:{rf Uanson?

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Q, Did 1ou ev~J:f See IJ!ex, Watson after that -ever,.t-t. '
5.

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A; N.o.,. l ha\l".en t
!
r;. .MR~ :BUGLIO.Sl: Thatik you.
. 7
~ No turther quest1ons. '
,:. '.!3-'. . .
,UR. ~ITZGERALD:. No questions, y:our Honor.
~

TH:$ OOU.RT : Mr. Sh:l.np.?

10,
MR.. snINN: .No quest.ton~
'.i:'i

l~.
Tl'IE COUR~: Mr. Kanarek!
1,$.. KAN4REK-: Yes~. yaur Honor..
'1'3

.14 .
CROSS-EXA.~lINATION
15 .

r 16 BY ~R.. KANAREK:
. '
Q I1Ir. Crowe~ how :;J.on_g nave ybu been a dope pu~hex-?
17' . ' ' ' . ' '

. . ~ . :t don 't under.s-tand the. t~i,u.

.
I

' ' rm. BUGLIOSI,:' 'rhat assume-a: a. tact not iii evidence.
. ' ~HE COua-r ~ .- S1_1Qtailned .
29
-,.
,,.__. I

Now, .four puiopcee in_ s.etting

'' ~J.. '
thia . mar:ij"uaaa, I~. O.rowe, was to resell 1t;.r~gbt?

..,. ,.

. . . , . i6
MR4 XUAREK:

THE COURT:
tour. Honor;
Mo eoment?

Atlatt~r the ques-tion.

inay we have an an:swe?!?

~ CieloDri"8.com
 .- . ,

1 THE wl~NESS: Not me., no .. - '

~- BY MR KAMARE_K:
Q, Not you?
4, . ' No.
:5- ' In other words, .y.ou protec,t you:1;:"se.lf', Jou_ give
6 the doi;eto aomebody else- to $ell; is thEt right?
1 '
.
.'8 !,IR.. EUQJ:,IOSI: I object on the groun,Q. tnat it ,is
9- 1r~elevant..
, a

'10 HR.. ~AN'AF.EK :. It is mozt. relevant and materia11 your

' '

11 , Honor.
:1:2 ~Im W!TUESS: I1ay I st,ea.k_ -to my- attorney, pleaaef

-
i:t'HE COURT: Y~a.
lil TRE W:tTNESS ,. .- May I speak to you,, S-1~? .
15 MR. .FITZ'dERALD: Fo:J:t the record, s.ir., your nallle?
16 r-m. t,IOB..OAl-1-: Jrunea Edwo.rd f,I6~ijan.
rr : - '(.James Edwal7d. r.Io~gan app:roaob.es. the witne$s .
-is stand and'. -speaks to lw. 0:t"owe . )
19 mt. _KA'.llAHEK:; .May I h~ve an answe;r?
' ,20 THE COUR'f: The obJ-eot::1.on .i-~ t?ttsta.irted.
I. ~-
6t '21.

22
',.

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24

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Q. _ Well,, Mr. qJJ~we, whE;t w~s :vo~r ~ten:, ;ro~~ .

~

'
.' ' .. .. ~" ..;1 : , & " ,I ' '

What were you:~o1;'1g tP 40 w:!th 'tilit!I t;\ape-'l

~.
.state Of #1:Lnd?
.
. l IR.. B.'UG~XOSI:
1
'

'rhat 1$ ir-te\eve.~t
..
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,
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THE C:OUR'l't Su4tained . ....,-

,I> p 1-1' '

' ' .,. ,

'
' ..
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'5 '
'
BI MR. KANAQK: -, ,, .r ~ i ;
'.
' l ' ' I'
6. . .
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;;
Q, . How long.,, .Mr. 01:'owe, how long had fQU -k.nown
. "l . .
.,Mr. Wat.son?
~ . . .
-A. . Prio~ to the t:tm.e- he went to "!0- 1fhat tiine. a.re yo~
' .. p
speaking: o.f'? -What. _dQ. 7.ov; mean? Now.-.,. then, dr wnat?
tl !J:lhen .
l;l. " .
I
'
' .
.The time tbis t,:appened?
Yes.
,i. r

At- J.udgng from the tinl.e t. ;Leaving Hollywood. to

;1.4. n,

, , E~ Monte 1 lJla,y.be 1 t ..tas- about 2f))' 30 minutes _ , l fion 1t kn.ow

15, . . .. .

16
how. l0t;1gth~ r-delsi
. '
:p;Ld ,omeone. introduce y~u. to Mr. Watson? .
11
A. Y_es.
Q Wnq int~od~ced you to Mr. Watsont
, .l? -
. A. Rosina.. , '

....,.,.~- Q.- Rosina?

- ' 21. ' '
A., Yes.
22 ,
:

Q ~d is llo.sina a. gir-1 t.gat ;tived 1n ~he ip-a:a,:t;ment

tl'lat we are talkin-g. ab.o\lt t

24
Al! I ""11derst~o~i.Jes
-~a . -
Q. Atld was Rosina~ gir1 f~iend.of Mr. Watson'sf
 Now,. rou knew t-Iiis, How: did. you tmderatand that

Roaina. was a gir1 tr-iend o.t: rir. Wat'son?

A. Beeause'she said~-
' ~ ' ' ,',

4 MR.: .BUGLIOSI t Calls :for 'heareay. ,. f " - , .r

' ' . <f,. ,i ' ' .
TUE COURT! Su~~a~rt~cf. ~ ...
,5
'' '' . . , ... ....
.BY J'l1R'. JCANAREK: '-- : .. : . ' '

6 " .
. 1 -~ Now, you_gave '$2.;400' to i1i. Wa-ts.on; is that
right?
....
~

.. /'' .
~ Uo; I didn't give ni,m anyt,bing .
.9
. . ' ..
10 {~ ..
Yo-u didn't .Si.Ve him anything.f '

li . jL
' i

Q Wall; was ;t your money?

A..- Yes,

. :1.5
Q_.

A.
Xou~ money; r:tgh~?
Yes.
lp ~- What were YO\l gotng to do. -- let me ask you thls1
..
17' What. wa:s supposed tQ happen tor. the $2)4.Q.O?

liow -moli m.a~tJ.uana. we:re you supposed to get?

. 19. A. ):. can tt .recall at this parti,cular time

20 Q. Yo.u can't.?'

21
No., J: donit~
_w.~11, you: de~l in marijuana:,, do t you?

23. MRe- .BUqtlOS~: '!oll-r Honot-~ this assUllJ,eS rac-ts not ;i,n

24 &'Vi <;ie;nqe , . .

I~R. KANA~K: . He ia an etp<trt

tm.
. ,

BUGl;,lOSI 1 I:r.relevant.

Cielc~-iw.com;
 ..', 21,731 .

We v1:t.ll take our rQCOS.S. , ladiell and 9Cntll;;!I.'.!.vn.

2

- '3,

4
. .e w.i.th. any-0ne
Do not convc,.-r.&

any opinion ree;J..rdin.s {_lun4lty until. this- is-a.ue haa .finally

o:r :(o):'ri::. b:f :e.xpres-s

.,,
Tne Oo.UI't wi11 rece.is'unt:.t,1 1:45
7
(Wh~r~up<;in.,_ at 12: ou, noon the co.urt was in
1-'1 ' . reao.s~. J
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CieloDrive.corn
 21,r32

L(?S AN-QELES j CALIFORNIA, !ilONDAY, J-ANUARY 28 > 1971

1
}.:54 P.M.

-- 3

4
TH$ COURIJ.1:
.
All the
....- ... o----
uetendants except Mr. Manson are
&. . p~e;sent; all counsel and all _jurors are present.
. '

You may cont.inue , F,Q? - l{~narek

.. 1
BERN-ARD CROWE,
.the wit_nes;ij on the stand_ at the time -ot the noon ratle.ss:,
resum!id the stand and testified fui..-th~r as follOW.SJ
- ' ' t

I ', _} ;

BY MR, KAMAREK: '~ ' ' '

1
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lk.. Crowe:; def :you go by' the name 0 Bernie?

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Q, . What ti:rst name d:P yol.1. go '.by?

1 ,i
"l7
A. totsapoppa.
, I'

1.

18
Q .Pardon?

19 A. LQt~apoppa.
Q How. .do you spell. tb~t?. ~ '
. ,

21 A. ~-o-t-Q-o-p....o-p-6,.

22 Q - n.ow, ~n your presenqe, l'b:t.. Cr(>we, may I call yo" . . . .

do yQu !)re-fer to be. cal'l~d Lotsapopp-a-?
A.' ;tiotsapoppa, right-
-You would rather be ea.lled l,otsei.popp.a?
,26 Y~s.

''
.eieloOrive.can
 '
~ , I ' :,' : ' '

hear d R~sina' sat i'!ibat y~u~ I,ota-ai)oppa, would

'l : pres enc. e QU

money
~- kU l ev~~yone cQnn~cted with Tex unl~aa 7ou_got_you~
4 .
ba-c.k?.

A. Wil l you ,;teph:ra.se the quea tion agai n.?

Q, , Yeah .......
' .
THECOURT: Let 's have the q~e atio n read.
(Wher~upon, the pend'1ng que stio n was: _read by- the
repo rte~ a& foll ows :
.
.,. '
8
.
9 Well., Lote.apoppa. is it a fa-ct

io that 1n you. r p~esen.oe yo~ bear. d Rosina say

. '
'
. . .
ll
....
-~fl.at iou, Lots apo. ppi, would ki+ l everyone
-connected w1tn Tex unle&s rou_ got Jo~ money
'back?.").

rs
Mo, .she did not he,u - me say that ... Sbe
THE WlTl,lESS:
~he cou-l...d
saiu that .on ~e~ own xsec9gn:.1zanc~, t1.s ur1~ t~at
16 . scar e whoever kne~ whe~e his whereabouts we~e.
1-7 : L~taax,oppa~ wc.uld you l:1-sten to ihe ques tion ?
'l'.'he quee t:ton was Whether Roa~na said tha t you
would kil l
1l8
' ~ ' .
ppa~. got
19.. eve~yone: ootJ ,n~t ed ,~1th Tex unleS:$ you,. L.otaapo
'-

,20... 1ou r mone;y .b~o k,

e."-1
21 . A, Xe.a,. she sa~d tha t Ja.

22 . ~. She saic - tha t, ~igh t ?

. ,23 . A.. ,ftl.ght

And can you gtve uij, orwould 7ou give us,

~
us th.e .e~aet :words
,2s : 1'lr .. Crowe: OX' Lots~poppa., would yo~ give .
1
' -

tl)-a t Ro~ ine .s-a:ldt

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CieloOrive.com
 /!
THE COU~T: mi,. Kanare1;t either u.oe that micr~:pht>n~ '
properly ol.'- putit dQWn.
3 r,m.. KANAREK: I dcm 1 t know what your Ho.nor .de~nis; .as
4 prope~.

t THE CQUR'r:: Well, you are much too closet

1 6' MR. KANAREK 1 AJ,l. right,. ia this all ri.$ht, your Ronor1
7 Q Et rm. KANAREK: Would you pleas,e :gi v:e us tn.e
8' ~xac.t words tlla.t Rosina uttered;. wlla.t the e:x:~o.t words wer~
9 that- came Q.t of h,er mouth.,. not Ju:~t rour conclus.ioli or
lO- your summary, but Wh,;l-t WOI"ds came -ott.t Qf her mouth When she
1r . :made this statement?
A. The only thing l can do f'or you is to give .you the

basic- of th~ ~onver.sation. -

I. actually cannot ' '
recal'l word-t.o:r-wo:r:-d pf the
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. 15 c-onve-rsation 'at that 'paritic.ular time

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20

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23

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 2l,73S

1 -MR. J.(AN.AltEK: Al~ rigb;t .

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4
wotcls
.
o,.

A
GiV(;\ s., as best you can, as close to t;be
'

that she used. 'The words she Us(ad,

.
'Ihat I was goil1$ to destroy anyone out to the
,

,5 ranch o:t" had any dealings wilth Charlie Watson mi:Less I

(j, ~eceivad the money, or whateve~ l was after.
- .
7. And -what ~tas it that you were afte:t?
.,
u J1.. Marij uan~,
g ,. ti . .' And y.ou didn tt use the teI'Jll marijuana on that
eveAj.ng; y~U c,a'.tled.it by some other te:an;. i-s that rig~t?
.,
10

u A weed ..
12 . Q, wecad1

.. ..
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-i3 A Yes ... '
'

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. ' it .
(\ . ' ,4ny othe,: term? ~ . - ! '
I - I ,' { '

15 A Grass, Qt' whatever_. 't, ....

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i6 Q Grass-~ .- ' ., : , : j

il ' Anything else? 1'

. ,
Mary Jatl,e.iz ' ~ , . j < '
19
r
.
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A No. l don I t -use that trma~ .~t i$ a \1ttlf .t;oo'..
. ' . , . .
femitiine"
.... ~

Q. . A little too what?.

22 A A 1itt1e too femini~e~
I see.
Q.

24 Now, what time wa$ it that ~venlug that you

~6
f$.rst saw. Mr. Watson?
A Like I sai.dj around 10:30, 11;00 Qclock.

'CieloOriw.COOl
 . ?i - - ~
'7 "lt..
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8-2 ,l; Sotnewhe~earound in .that area.

~
2 ' Q, lOt 30 or ll :.00 odlock. in the evening~ 1 is that

Yes.,
And in whose pxesenQe were yo~ 1.rhen you fitst
saw ~."Watson that evening?
. 7 .A ~tev.e, nosina, Del, Jim and myself.
,.,,
8 Q All risht,.
No-w, wb.a.t i.s Stev.~' s full narn~'l
, lO'
Steve Soor.pi.
11 Can you spell ~hat.?
His last name I don't know. Scorpior ~corpi~

,15
Sqmeth~ng like that~
Q ~1tere does Steve Scorpi liv~?
In Braokly,;t.
{
~
' , .
.~ . ,, '

16 . t1here?
' : i ,, '

17
:Brooklyn, ,~~ew. York. ,.
Where is lie ~ight nQWi ; -
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19
He is i :Srooklyn;
. . ... '
20'
Q He is in Brookiyn right'. no-w? . . t-.
' ' . f

A Yes,
' . .
.. ,('
~~ ! :. t I'. .' '

Do you ktto~ his addtess in i:rookfyn? .. ,I I

Sure . He offered to ~ome down.

24
You m.ean, you can bring 11~ to this c:ou.r~:toom.?
25- :-
A Yes. R~ is 1illing to c01:ne.
26, ,
' '
0. Would you see to :tt that he gets here? .
 . . ?l,.737

. ,
2

i:li Btoolq1yn?
It is not my job.
'Well,_.let Jne ail3k you thi.$: What i~ ~s addr$8$

I have it ~itten down somewhere, I wi1l have

to. ge;t' it, ot what.eve~;-.
' '6 l4R,. KANAREK: May we us~ th.e ,good se1tvicl;.!s of your.
'
' 1, '
~ttorn.ey to present us with that s.ddress?
'IHE WITNESS: Spe~ to- my a.tto:r:ney about that""
MR. MORGAN.: )four lion.or; may t addrei;1s the -Co.u,;t?
TI:m COURT: Yes .t '.Mr. ~Io:rgan.
u ; MR~ MORG;,;N: I would like to advise the Court. that
12 -t alU uot-- at; tha d-ispo$al: of Mr. Kan;r;ek for those pJJ.t'poses,
.Ma,r KANlillEKt . Very well .
, '

I '(!it;ln t t suggest that he was.. I wa:s just ~$king~

i6-. o,,_. WCi!ll,. Mr .. C:r:owe, tthat is your addresa?

17 , A . .No conunent. . ,.
.' '
,MR. '.BtIGLIOSI: I object., yo~: l!~no't ..
... '.j.9
'
MR . KAN.ARJ;!Kt: . T}ti;de~
, ' ', '.>,~ ~
Sm;tt;h;vs~ Illinois,, your liono~,
.t ' ,- ...,. , '

~o 1 b~lieve we ar~ entitled i:ri that; ..

2(
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1 j, '
....
,;
~ You may ~nswer. . ,
4f" ,.:,"
f
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23, Tim tUl'NESS! 7008 Woodrow t1ilson. Drive.,

.
t3a fl$.
,
~;;' J ;,,
'
BY l1ll.. ltt.1:NAP~K:
-. ~
A'
10 wha.t7
7008, t-ioodi:ow Wil$on Drive, Hollywood.
' ,,, '

,.-.:_;,.1o0r .
\JICI ave.can
 ~.-., . ......---

Sal lmd is there a~ apat"tment number ther~, .Mr.

. :?,

4
Ctowe? .

A . No.
i-m.. RANt~K:
It . is a house,
Hr"' Bug1iosi has -reprea.an.ted that lJ,e
5 will .ask 'Mr. Crowe for this ~dd-ress.
6 Will you repr.esent to us that you will give
.7 Mt .. l3ugliosi --
MR. BUGLlOSl.: 1'bis ie ir;relev~n t, this type of
question.~ ~nd I object on that ground ...
10 ME. .. KANAREK: This is, the only chance ~e have,
n yo'l:!X" Ronox.
TBE COURT! Continue with your examinatio n,, ~,.

' . 13

15
Kanarek.

.Q Mr.. CX'owe, will yo~ gil.fe Mr; Bugl,.iosi the

16

11 , THE! COJJRT:: Go ahead with you11 examinati on, Mr.

' '

18 Kanatek .

. examination; youir
MR. i{ANAREK: That is p-att of my
'

20. . Honor.
.21 n:E COJJR'i.": 'rhe tibJettto,n ,Ji. sustained ..
~ -~ ;~ ;, ~
.. ' ' <

MR.., KtN...\REKt Then may ~e. approach t~e benchJ

: ~ ' ~ ' - ~ -1. l

,23 . ' THE COURT: It\ 'i;s qot neces$a1:y'~ . l?i:~eed~ ,

24 , BY MR. lWlAREK: -, _+; ~

' , I. . ,

-' 25, :

'"26.
Q; Well, sir 1 then ,the:r;e ._a:$ Ml;. SCOl'.'p.~/ @d . -~
yourself., -and a person that you called l)!.12'

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Ciek>Drive.com
 ,
aa-2 1: A lle is deeeased.

.e 2 ''

'3
And what was, his full name.?
t have no. knowledge of his last nm;ne,
'What1
A I have no kn-owledge of his last nam..e.
6 Q -Ra<l you ever seen biip. tefore th,;1.t night?
~'

' 1 A Oh,. plenty times, yes.

8 Q . .And you don I t know hi_s iast niune?
A No ..
10 We were very cl~se frienqsy but I don't
11

'12 Q What?

... ' .13 "

1.4 . ,.
A we was 1/e'fl.y t:lose fri~ndl:J hut I didnt~ know
bis la4t name t or l .have forgot.ten it, or whatev.et .
I se1:1 .
16 And -do you know -.mere he 1ived?
l7 A 'Reno, or Frisco.
js Do you kn.ow l1.ia address. in that area?
~

"'
. ;!,!?-
''
No, I dont"8
2() , ~d you, at: any- t-1tPe> knowh$.s addreas in
~c
2i Ren()?
.. 2?, ' A No .. 11
) f.~ .i-

23, Q. can you. furnish u&~-~\th.:a-filmle of someone

. ' '

2( .who -could give us wh~e.,-hEt f!;'YEtB: in Reno?

'25

26
A
Q.
No..
"tou can~
~

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. _.. __ "" ~loDrive.can .

~ - ~ - . Tll,
 - ________ _____
___........,._.
/ 21,740

-.
1

2
I ki

Q
lf(). I won't.
Have you ever been to ~s home in Reno?
A No.
3

4
Q, Do you know an:,one in the Loa Angeles area
that knows him?
5

6
A That knew him?
Q Knew him. Pardon me.
7
A Yes.
8
Q And who would that bet
9
A He 1a not in town now, you know.
10
Q. What is the name of this person?
11
A Bob.
12
Q What is Bob 1 a last name?
13
A That is all I know. Bob.
14
Q. And when did Del pass away?
15
A I am trying to remember.
16
He cme to tba hospital a few times to see me.
17
About three or f:ouz JIIOll.ths, something like
18
that, after the incident.
19
Q And did be pass &'lllay in Loa .Angeles?
20
A No. On the way up to Reno, from leaving
21

22
San rrancisco.
Q And do you know what state he died in?
23
A An automobile accident.
24
Q I see.
25
And where was that automobile accident?
26

CieloDrive.can
 ~ . , '
,?1 '76.1 '

1, I 'C!onrt ha\1.e any knowledge.

2. On the road some~here.

:,A,
3 Q, . Do yo know if it was in the State of
,f,' , California?
s Y~s, it w~s in tho State of California.

".,, 'And do you kno.w; ,;,ms he with .another person?

...... - - - ,;---.i;-

A So I hea'td ..
8 Do you know the name of the other p.rson?
'9. ' w. :CUGLIOSI: lrrelevcnt, your Honor.
. 10' tour Honor* this :ts our only chance
MU.. lt\NAREK!:
11 iot discovery; to obtct.in this. t;e have no way 0 taking
' 12 depositions ~with the -witness ..
13 .THE COURT: Never to.ind the argl.1lllent t Ml:'. KanSl,."el(. ..
14i
,, . 'iu may unswei- th~~%1<i~~~9n.
15 Tlill WITNCS$r 1:1hat was the question again1
. 16. BY t;m,. lt\.NA:REI<:.
1r. , n Do you know if there was ano.ther pets on with
1s th!s gent:lqman when 'he passed al'tny?
3,9 A There wera some people in the car but I
20 don1t t~ally know,, you kx\ow,- who they we;re.
' .
2r ,. ~. t'ou don t know th~ name$ of any o.f' them?
22

- j

25

.-~ CieloDrive.con,
 2lt74? , ..
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~

Q .Do you. know in what -Cbn~y of 1:ha $t~te of

l ~.

2,
A No.

4,

5 "
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. 16

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 21,743
'I

iardoJ 1., , . .~ . .

...
, .. .
;.,._;. i"~ ; :' ''t "I ! t ~ i' ~I ' J ~:

2 ' All I know is: :,t.n~- the.:$t~t~,~ on ,the--h:tghway from.

3

4
.San -F-rario-is~b to Reno. .
.
And it wa_s :J.n the State- or .ca.lifQrnia?
{ ' ~
' = ,

-; ~

.'
5 Uh-huh .. ~
,- '. i '
. - .
~
'6 . A:nd it .sthrae ULonth$ afte~ th:ts incident that
1

. 7 you are apealcing of?

'-;.:.
, '
,,
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\ '

,;;
8 A. Ye.s.
9 Row, alsQ in th$! aut.omobile be$1des yo1,1r~elt was
io -Ros1.na.
li- WarJ she 1-n. the automol:>:tle besides rourseli' and
12- . MI'._ Wat.son and Del and Sco:rpi?

...
,
14
Ye~.
And wb.at 1$ Rooinu:ts last name?
The tirst time I .met he:r., too.t
I don't know.
-16 was that night.
\
You had never a.een he;.r befove, 113 ,that l;'li:gp.t?. ''

18 l{ot to my memory,, no ..
. . - '
'. 19 '
Md on this Qc<?asion who was it tnat a:rranged
20 . the m.eetJpg between yourael:f' and Mr. W1.ttson a,nd' Rqsn.a?
2i Del .
'
be-l.., the pertJon that pas.sed away? ',

23 A. , Un-huh .,
He arranged that1
,e.
,, '
25 lea.
\
~ow 1 we;s Del a person that, you knelt to be
 21.,744

l' eng~ged in tne sale 0 ma~iJu~na?

~ '
l-iR ~ BU.a-~;coJI: I~.re_l,evant, your lionQr.
i , ,1 .j- Iii ...

i.:n. ~b.l~A.i.~:~:: : YoW?

I ,~ ~ I
lto.aor., it gQ.e.s to the state of ~nd.

subject~
-. ~ : ~~

I ilc:a, '~ .u~f~ t ;,:c: 1,:h~

1 a:rg~~llt: 1* "f~.ont of
'. ii
7

, ~''*I ' a. Q
. 9
!lr. Del, or D.)l ccnc..:rnin& tili.J, -wou,1.d ;rou tell. us what
' 1.0 the -conver&ation ;;0.;,, b.:;t;,1.;!.m you~::.:cJ. a:-"d Del concerni1;1_g
11
the traneaction, ~.,.licl".11 lu::;.::r oo-cu;rrt:<.ij you say., w1tit
, 12
r,1r.,. WatGonf

---
1:3
:. :r knen ev:Ltlen.tlsc 4-t. th.r.: timtl ... - ile wtls suppqaed to
JJ,

15
_g_ot it ..before.; anct' tb.at waG it ..
16
/1.n~ I d.i(.l.iJ' 1, g_u:'.!:;.;tlor...:tl.1~ ;10 don't question
.17
ea.<;h oth~p; '! juot tul:u i1~t: ,;;,1; hi:,; 1101-id., ~ou. l:no'W., your
. IB ' .
WOJ?d iu your b~ncl., :,ou tno.;, .1c i.:. V;;t _by that.
_ 19

I,:r,. t:r..taon ditl you have thi& corJV0t,1at.:ton with the pe~a-on
you eall ,Del ooi1.cor...1in.:; til:!.5 tr2.n.!'!.c.ction?
At r:.y houso> you knoir.. .
23

,, <

. '
' 01? toteai,opl)a.., now,
 21., 745

.:, l

3.
with the J;iereon you call Del?.
A.. Actually l oniy ha.d. a few worts I_ talked -..iith :Pel,
and be asked me would.! come al?nz, and. I did, and that was
,4 ; it,'

.'
5 ~e~llY', I JutJt kept:, qu:t~t most ot the time.,. y:ou
. 6 know !I ~nd tben Qe went "!n and. tool{ care of' the trans~ct ion,.
'
l'
c:'

~
1
..
the l'Jusi~ess .he had tc paJ,te catte 0' ..
"

. . '~

~~
j .,,,. -8 .. q ul:row longlwa:s :l.t you had tne cortvers ation with
.., '
9 ~ .. Del.>, -o~ Pel, ;bei'ol'e you met w:ith .Mr .. Watson?
: !,,"" ~ ~ ,_ ' i ' \. -: - .. '... ' ; ~ - '

10 i;hat t1m~ tl;.'ansp;Ll?ed; be:trween: the conv~r6a t1on at

'11 Wo.odwoti W:Ll,son Dr-iv.e..bet)'l.ee,n UOll+'Sa:J;.t w.1th Del and, the
' J ' f : ': ~ .. . f r,. II- ' ' l- ;

'1;2 t
, c.otlvers.a.ti_on. w1tl1 Mr- W(I.t~on?
' ,.

'l3 ~ Are :Jou saying the t.1,:st i;d.me: I was "'iritrottuoed to
....
C .. .. ' I
'
,I. ~
' , I

~ ~
I j i <

him p;r1o:t: to the time I ha(l <il, oortversa.t:t;Qn .with Del, is that-
1
. 14

,. '
:-15 w:tla.t YO\l are al:!king m:~? .
'
J6 ~ Yes, I wXl1 aak that.
i
i.t A Well, ;t_t must hav:e. bee~ about, let:' s t'say l.O i-00,
18, iO.t30, somethi.ng lke that, in between that time. Thex-e
. 19 ' wasn t much
'

he l:ut4 to say .
'

20 0 'Do yoti have some?11 ,

i' ?~
I,

~t'''. And'he e~id tbe amount of mone1~ and he_gava him

... 22 th~ moner ~ithout too ~uch question or,detat ls~ and al1,tha t,
'

23 ' yo\1 know ..

,24 Q Mr, Del was at ro~r house abqut l0:30l is- that

'
25 right!
'
215 A. .About lQ-:00 o~ l0:30, .lm not exactly what time 11

,~
__ .___ 1!'"1\le.COITI .. '
 ;r was.
2 Is tbat ~'bout the time that he. came t-o your
house?

5 Ha4 he been
'
thor'!.bef.or.e- this conversation took '

.6
. ' 7 Who.~ Del?

Jar. Del ..
Plenty.of times, sure.
I!) Pardon?
;E'lonty of times ..
J.2 All z,ight) on.thi.s oooasion he- came to your house,.-
rs.- what time. did h~ .come to. your hoticse on this night?
14 A. , That is what l said., around 10:00 or 10;30 he
15 ,came to my house &nd he toJ.d ie wha.t he had to tell mec.
16, From that point 11,e left, It wasn 't -- I did ric:rt;
n . serid hitl to a third des;~ee or what, I. aid not s'end hi.m to
18 any Q-h~ncrQ:g
. -l!f I just ac:cepted :J.t .-
.20,, And you the1,1, went with him to meet Mtt. WatsQl'l:;
21'

.
"' ' :22 Yes.
~ ~ ll ..

"23 ~ Now., my qqest~o.n ,:_f,s: . W-0u1d you g:t.ve us an estimate:

of the t:Lme irt\roJ/ved: ~
i~.-in~eh time el-apsed between the 'till1.e
.

, 25 .;you s,poli:e -~1th-ID.el~ and th~; :t:!;me;":,y.ou:met -W1,:\;~ '.1\1~ .. ~a.ts-on 1 ilOi 0

:i : ~ ,, ', .. I ~ . -' ., - .
much- time went by'/

.. \

CiCc~-he.com
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 _ 21.. 7.47

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1- ' A. J: would $tty ro~ghly between 10:30 and ll:00.,

s ,:
4
about .an. hour reallr~ say betwe-ert 10:00. and 11:.00
ihat i~ when w~ was all toge.tner on our way to
El liiortte, . aur:tng that one-l1Q~r peli:i..od.
' '

5 Q- ~1Then you ad that t:trs~ conversation wit,h.

....
'j
.6 1w. Del was anyone present. at woo~row Wila-on Drive .ex.cept
.,.
7 -yourself?_
.-
...... 8 . Now?
!)
r:o,, be tore;: yo -went to
. ri1eet with for. Watson w.ae, '

':10 anyone. -p:ren~nt at tbe e-onversation nhen you and De.l spoke._ -
'
11 concerning fi. p:ropoze-d meet:tp.g with a person i1ho tutned out to
, 12
be r~ .. Wateon1
rn. . i, t'las. anyone e-lse preaent at the et>nveraat:Lon -on
14 :wood.row .lfil.oon Drive oth0r than you1?,3elf and Del?
15 r-~ Yes 1 one o~he:t",
16 '
Who is that pe:raon?
~
17-, A J,:un.
, -is ~- Jim.:? What- is 'Ql.u la$t 11amt3-1

,i i9- '~
.1-<.. :t don 1 t t:now. ,
,20,
4 ?u don't .know J'im' s laa,t name?
\ -~ ...
it A. no ...
" -22 Q. ' Wfi:e;.re. do~s, Jim l i"?.e'l _
23 - .~

.
''
I don't know.
"

24 ~ Pardon?
,.
_, 25, A, .I don rt know.' .
I

~o ~ y 9u .don't' ~?}.bw l:iow to get hold or h1mt

.'
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~.
t
. ,:. .

. ., ~. ' "t ' -

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' . CieloOri\le.corri .
-
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 l 'A.. No-.

&

4
Q

Q;
:Ooe:s he have .a phol\-e nUDlQer?
~Witne~s ,shakea hea(i in the n~gative . . )
Pa.1>don?
-' ' . .5 !',don't know how to_get 1n touch wi.th hiia. ' I

, ~ Have you, seen Jim between that time and this (la.y'l
., 1 Yes .. -
,._
;;, 8 :
It you want to get. hold of Jim., how would you dQ
9 ;tt:?
iir . J.. Xwo~ldn't know
- ~:1
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,26

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 .. 21~ 749

9a-r l
Pardon?
I wouldntt know~

a l ..see. Would you de$ctibe Jim for us-?

I was looking-~ I didut pay.tha~ much
5 noti6e tq him. He is
tall, t.hnt is all I know-, he had
6 . ~laok -~ brown ha.i;r, something like that I guess.
7 ' ts he a blacltman -o~ a 'White man?
' 8 . A white man.
9: q Well, may task you, do you know in what aiea
10 ~~ liv~s? Do you know where: he lives?

11 A No, I' don 1 t."

1~ Q Do you know where: he 'Worltst .

Miami -is ail 'I kttow{ Mi~i, Florida

. 1~ T /y - ' ...
~ ";) r

1~ He is from Mi~it.Florid a?
15 A .] '
I ',

'16 Q . On occasion he coxnes t? Los Angeles~ an~ w~en

i1 he, does he shows Up ther.e on Wooar~:"i1U,sob. Drive., :ts .th.it- ',
18 the 'tllay _it works? . ,_ _-1
~ / .., ' l ; ~, I

19 A N'o; I .'just xnet him in a co1:1ple of night clubs.

2p_. l?ardon'l
;-,,
_.,.
21 A I met hiln at night clubs through some ;ftiends.
Q. You see him from -t:lni.e. ta tinl.e?
I did- Not now ..
23'

24
'
'

' I see. And when was the last t you saw

. -- 25- : . him?
A .He- c.arne to the hospit?-l to see me a coup-le of
,
CieloDrive.com
 2l 750

9-a-2 1 til'nes. . I seen hi.tu in a c:lub on Sunset St;rip,

Af4:er . that,
', '
~ and that was that.
'g q And when he o.arne 1;.0 visit you :Ln tl1e hospital,
"4' he di~ co~e -with 17
' ' ~ A Yes-~ uh-huh.
6 Q And di4 .. ...; when Del sp.oke of Mr. Wats.on, w~at
... r did Jiln $ay, if anything,, concerning Mt'~ liatson!
8 MR .BUGLtOSI: Call's for hears~y .
9 MR. KANAREK: feu.t Honor~ it i~ not offered fC)r the
io: truth 0 the tnatter .asserte:~
1~ MR.: l3I,IGLIOS;t: If it :la. not,. the.n it is i-rrelevant.
t;. ,MR; .KANAREK: It goes 1;:o the state of tllind, your
1.3 :-' Honor
. .fJlE. COURT.: .Sustained. .
.,, ~
.
{
, I
. BY MR, KANAREK: :
~~

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16 May I a~k Y'!u;. would Y.9\.1, t~l1,. s_,_,. Mr., ci:vwe;

' ' ~ I ~ "::' ' .t.. ' ,~ ', :.

17 how 1'1as Mr. Watson d,Qscribed. as tha contact ia this

I

is narcotics- sale, how did Del descri~~hixo,.? ~. ',, \ . ; :

; ~
)flt,. BUGLIOSI: Sam!;!~objeoti~n- ' ' '
2.0 T-$ COUR'Jt: kead the ques.tion., Mr. :tiolionibe; ....
' - '
' .
' 1' ~

I I '
21,
-: (Wh~reupon the repo~ee~ zeads the pending
~

22. ques~i()n as fqllows:.

''

Nay I askt y~u, would you ~ell us,

Mr-. Crowe, how iwas r. 'Watson described as the

~4 '

. 2.5 . contaet in this narcotic;; ..$ale;: how did Del,

26' de$cribe hilu?ir)
 z1,.1s1

MR. llUGLIOSt: Call s -for he-a17say.

l . ,
Your Hono~t. the -con vers ation has a;l:read~

4,
MR.., K'.AN.AlIBK:
been gone into . We ar.e enti tl~d to, -have the c~l ete conve:t ...
satlo n in.nccordance.l'ltth th~ Evidence Code.
Is
5 TH.E COURT: - Is that ~hat y-0u are call ing :f;or?
' .

.6 th~e what.your qu~stion ca11$o~?

NB:. KANlJtElC: Yes .
7

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. 'T!W COURT: The conv ersat ion,?
9, MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Hono,;, desc ,;rip tion, . which
JO has to be done verbally~
1'l - ~ COtmT: Ov~11ruled, yo may .anSW'er ~
12. Do you unde rstan d the que, stion 1
.TH$: lJlTNESS: Wou!d Y<?U ret,~ at it 1 plea se .

13

l4i _. ?HE COUR1:..: Read the ques tion .

is (WhE;!-reupon the repb ,;ter read s the pend ing

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16 qti.~sticm as follc;>ws:
. ) '

,17 May I 4sk you, Would you .'

tell US 1
I
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Ml:'. Crowe, how. was-~ Mr', .Watson de$~r:f.be4 ~. ,, t.'b.e
'

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conts:ct in this narcotics ita:le; how di~ ~1- \
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-19

~o '
4esa ribe him.?'"') .. , : . ~ .

-~1 fflORNEt JAMES ...MORCfAN: l3ef6te b~, an8'We,;~_1 nuiy I '

ii 22 conf er with iny clie nt -a m.oment? I''

-~ THE COURT: Yes ..

.' - ,'

24-_ MR" MORGAN: t.rhank you, your Honor.

' 2$- ' (Whereupon Mr.. Morgan c:onfer$ with the

,

26 ~itn esst afte r which-the following proceeqings"Were

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had 'il;). open cou rt.)

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THE COUR.T: You lllay answe:r.

.~
4'
. THE Wl'I'NEas.:.
' ,
the que stio n wa.ia., did Del. c;le scti be
what pur t tha t Chart~~ Tax was playing1
THE COunT: How dtd he tlescr~bc ~atspn?
di.du rt. .
Tim UITlIBSS: He: -didn It z-e ally . He
' '6
DY MR, ICANliMt: .
Illia t did he say? .
8
tha tit:. ~.
,. 9 Ho ~ai d nqt hin g pcx-.~a:tning to Tex at
t- you
10 :r tlel l.; you r sta te 0 mind was suc h tha
ng to sel l nar cot ics
11 t<1ere ~oi ng to me at someone v1ho 'tms goi
12
.to you, rig ht?
hin g tc;,
13 Not tQ nt~., he wnsn1 t :going to sel l not

14

15
.
m.e .

lle -was go.ing to sel l. nn1 too tics - .. let me

ti{ .
witbdraw that~
Dri ve
17'
.ht the t'ime YQU went to Uoodrow Wilson
18
did you t:ake so~ n,.oney 1-,ith. y.ou?_
A Yes, I did .
you had -$~liO~~ t;ash~ .,..riih~?
20 ' J ' ' ~- .
.
Somewhat~ yeiJ.. .
~

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~ ~
. i1 , t : ,' -~ -. ,'
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...
,

ill I '

premi$e-s,
I

'You had at la st $24{)0 in cas h on the

i t

-
~ , 22 .
,rig ht, ~ ; '
l

A Yos.
24 - ' ' ,. f

tha t ;th i$
_Now; you r sta te of 'mind, ~rr.-, . ~bw ~,
/o.

e
' ' -
25 ,

26
'.},
$2400 was goi;ng to bf! t,;a~sie,rrec;l to
some.person th.at Del

CieloDrive.con,
 ' '

. '} -spoke. ?f for the ,purpoijes -of. ,gettin g narcot ics-~ is that

-,~

4.
~fght?
A Yes .

. .And these na:rco tics were: to go to 'Which person?

5 ,, No ~omment. I mean, trafu se ta answer that
'6 '

;7. Q Pardon?

8 I refuse tb ans~e~ that questi on.

9 MR; l<ANMIBK: Ueli,. you.:r llonor , may we have an
' '

'lg answer.
11
MR.,. '.Bt,TGLlOSl: Ir:re1e vant.. .
. 12 MR. KANAREK: Your Honor~ it is most releva nt ..

..
.a,,
13

14

:J.5, '
the- argum
-
ent in front o,f the jury.
. 1,tt.. Kanax"ek, I told

'
Su-sta ined If
',

you- many time$ f don t want

i6 If you th:tnk i.t :ts ifnpoit ant enough, you ~y

. ' '

17 ~equest to coine to the bench.

;1.8 ~.. KANAREK:: May I, your U.onor?'
19 nm COURT: : Wo; I have ~ule.4 . Let s. proc~.ed:.

-~ff Bt MR" KANamuc:

21
.Q l-Te1lt 'Would you' tell us., Mt'. Crowe , di'tect .ing
. . ' '

22 your attent ion to yolir state .of ;mind, wh~n yo~ l~ft 'Woodrow " I ' ~ '

Wilson Drive you. .were th1.;nki,ng in te'rms or Ju.st meeting a

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24, pe~son that was goi~_g_ 11c;r:ft;irn:lsh narcot:(.cs ,: is that ri$h.t?

- .- ' 'j ' ' ' .,,, J ' f ,' ' : +

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A M:arij.uan.a:;. yes~- : , '., .

~5 1. ....

26 : Well, m~tiju ana ii;r a na,:co tici right l

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i' :: ' A 1:011 1 marijuana) that is what I understand,

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4
. . Iilari,j uann ... _:
Q ls it .n fnir s:t::at!em.ent t11at -wh~n you lef't1.,
. .
_when you loft -- pa,zdon mo .....
.

s. '' .' r:c:ior to. ti..a time thct ~au left) Deb -someii~w or
.- oth~.~escr:t.bed ~he p~rso~, ~ h~n being that was ~oing
"
,t ~' I

' ' 1 t.o, give. ..... that

' .
'(~43- going' to a:i:r.:rilgc fo~ this ,tran'$act:ton,
8 is t.ba~_ ~!$ht'l
'
9 A :Uill .1011 ,;~pm:ase _tho question?
_'Ip . : ~ardon-2
1.;J:: : .' Would you re-phrase the qa.e-st.ion_, p'l.-ase.
..
.. '
'
',12 , Certainly,

JS- ..
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t1ns yaui: stats- of td.nd G'-'ch. ~hat _i:-1hen you left
14' : . i'1oodt'ow ltilscn Dr:tvc you had in mind that a n-o.rcoti.c -
t~ansacti9a was "going. to take. place 'toit:h the person that .
.
. . . . . ,,,

. lli : Det ha.d s.poken of. is t:bat :,:ight?

10 fls . 1T
' . Yes, that ie correc~.

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 21. 7t;;t::i

10-1 l Now,. w;l.ll you describ~ for us ro.ur $tate o:r mind
, 2 a$ to whetner you thoght this pe~son was a man, a woman,

i
Qr wl;i.at?
0

perfion you were go1.ne to meet-?

What was your state ot mind as to the type of

5. It w.as a woman., really.

6 Pardon?
1. k wmnan.
', ~I 8 Your state of m:tnd was that you :were. going to meet
,9 .a woman?
10 A. ~h-hu)l.

<. .Is .that rig;ht?

12 A. ~es- .

Q, - B,Qsina?'
l
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:fes.
-~
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, . rs,, That is the person who turned out to be the
- ' ',' .
. 1 X6 . pe:r,on; tbat you were. -gt,,ing t<>~ me~t?
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17.
~-. A. , Right.. , ': 1 ,

18- t - _Q; ' ~nd }'"ro1n, you~ Qon.ver$~tion wl th Del at the

_, ~ f ' i; " I

19 .- Woodr-Qw Wilson addres$, your .sta.tf; of mind war$ tnat 1ou

- . '. ~. '

w~re_-goit:1,sit'Q me~'ti a woman; is that ~:ight?

1 ,

A That's right.
22 so you then proceeded, you then'procee4ed to go
with Del and Jim.
- ,t>id Jim -~-ccompany. you?
25, Yes.
- 26 YOU 3 Del and Ji;m.
c went tO -Rosin~t s on Franklin

CieloDrive.com
 21,756

i Avenue; 4s that right?

Yea

Did you bay~ conversation with Jim also as well as

Pel concerninB what was going_ to take place on Franklin
4,

5 :.
Avenue?

'' 'I? A. Somewhat., yes-,

Q, The three of you wer:e in a car driving there;
~'

's rtght?
9 " A. R~glit.

10 'l Who drove?

H A. I d:ttove,.
And where was Del?

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l2 Q

1$ A. Next to me on the front seat.

, - Q And .:r1m was where?
14,

J.5,
-'A. In the back .s~at;.
~
J.6 Q, .' , And when you got to this add.res~., did you get out
f ~ .~ '

l;"(, ~- ot thi automobile?

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18. ' A. .. Yes.
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.,,,. I~ Q; : And you. ,sot ou.t of th~ automobile, anq. then what
,.;
20 oc.curl"e~? ~
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21 ' t :r am ndt asking for conversation now, I 8Dl asking

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"' 2Z tor phy~icalmovement
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Did yo~ and these other people go somewhere when you

"
M . s-ot out o:r your automob;Lle!?

e. 25 No. Ju~t I.
26 You got out alone~
 l Yes-.,

,2 And then ~hat1 tfne~e Qid you gp?

3

4 at the la.3t mo:c.ent ~ 1 Ju::-.t f'i..:;ura.d that .,.- I mean, not

5 __ disputing Del1 ~ Jud-~merti;, ju3t intuit=':,on, I just ac.ted
' I; -

. im.pul;::ively, t0; go and se~ whet>e he was. soinr; .. I.t. was ~

- 7 thou~hi3 of UJ! 'OWJ?..

' 8<' who had the money'at the time that you ~rrived at,
9 the Franklin Avenue aduresc1
l did.~ '
' 11 And so, you got out of the oar aft.a~ Del got out
12 ~ oT the car;. 1s that rif;ht?
. 13' p"!' \fuat location?' What are you $peaki~g about?
l4 El iIonte or. he.re?
i5 Cl F~anklip Avenue.
:16 Did you zo first tQ Frankl.in Avenue be.tore you
1
11,. . , went <to,' E,l r,~onte?
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JS . 'A,., '7tes,. I went to Frankl;i.n f'i~st.

J~ .. '

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.i? Q, llf quea.t.ion is-: Wben you got to F:rankl:fl-n .,A.venue,

~-... '20 , did_,~~/~et

,,
out.
. ~f _i;he
.
\
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'au-tonoqile?
~

A. No!' I didn't.
' l '
". q ~-. ,, '\.Did anibody get~ out, -o-r t.be automobi].e?

,.
2a , A. ... fe$. Evel:'yone else bv.t myse1:r.
~4 Q ~ , 1bu m.ean~ Jim. and D~l got o:ut of the automobi:le?
25 Right;,
Q -And they went., disappeared from your view?-
A. Ub-huh~
 21)758

ls that right?
l
Uh-huh,
2

4
!low lon,g were they out .or your view7
I ~an't remember, but it was a short period of

.$ .
r,ttnie, be"Ga:use I got in a eonve.rsa.tion with some otber fr,iend$
'
that was living on t-he preJ:rlises at that tim.e an.d they was
6. :
!
7 ,. : tall.tin$ to me in the ca~, t;1.omething :J,.ike that.,, as I can
'".. '' reme~be~ vaguely.
-9, . Well, when y,ou got to the ~;rankl:n Avenu~

10,. :: acldress., you did not e;et out ot the car; right?
A. , ijQi; at the first. approach of the apaftment ~

12, .. I mean,, ot the first -- when I lef't my hou~e. to go

"

13 -
tp Franklin, :r didn't get o:u.t of the car. But on the
14
+'eturn .f.rom tp.e wnole trip, rgot out of the car and I went
ip. ttie ap_artment~
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1a
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~ . . . , , . . . . , ~ - - - , . . , . . . . , . : - - - ~ ~ - , . - - - - - - - - - - - . , . . . . . , . , . - ,...,._...,..,....----.-,=.c-,--,--,-,-----,-~--~--..-
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. . .21,759
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lOa-1 My qt;t.e~t.ion is . ~ When you first c.$le to the .

1 Q. UQW

~- franklin Av~Q.t,te. -add;ress, aft.er hav-ins left Woodrow Wilson

3 Dtive, di4 you.i ~1hen you first stopped in front p~ this
Ai . Franklin .Avenue add:tess, d:Ld you
,, .
get out of the automobile? .,
' ,'

' .
$. A No, t didn 1 t.
-g . Q.. All :right.. 1-lho got .out?
.1 A Del and Jim.
~
,,
All 'tiijb.t
_9 'i . -rhen they di..Saj;>pestt:!d. ;from you~ view-; :tight?
'A Yes. cor:.rect.
l1 Q llow long wet-e they t;one from ;rot.n:: view?
12, .A . P~rhaps ~en. ot .fifteen n,t:Lt.tute$... :t don t know.
13 t. c~~ tem'e}.l1ber, ~ea1ly,- the ~l(aet time.. Roughly> .1
JD,ean.. A few minutes or so . X doii-'t: knowi. I. ca.nt
, 15. recall.
1 wasn:t titnil'\g it-- I wasnt. waiting. alone.. I
11. 1vas .talking. ~o someone, and tha~ passed the t;i.me a;way,.
, _.1s q, ~ W,ere_ you t_alking to"?
..1_9 A Just a f;r:iertd. . I ean1 t exactly remernb.er who
:2a . it 'Was,. the people.
2'f ' People, I was talking to was people that I knew>
~2 . .associates. or $omething, yo.u ltnow, sl~ghtly. :
.2~. :: . 1 You h~d just come. from 'Woodrow .wi,l$ofi .Dt'ive; .
~ ,,

.2,4. :ts th~t ~ight> Mr. Crowe? -
. 25 A That is corret:t.-
26'. ' (1
,.., By what means did y~u communicate with thia
 ,' ' : "'
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2 '

.3.

4
' A
. with isontCon~ about: nothin g.
.
I an t rCraf:!mber ~that.
1
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'

I mean; I
~

Yott know, you .say. t1Hi 1r ancl

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am. involve_d
I

& . 11
Goodhyo. u lt is someone you. nee., tltttt rou had baen.
6. ,
introd
. uced to, in thaiz company.'
~
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, : , You know, y.ou say uz.li 11 and 0 Go.odbye, n ypu know.
'

a An acqua intanc e. You know. I can t re.memb.el""

I

. i -~ . l:ell, -when thi3 :cu:it en:mt to a. state of :re..$t at

10 the YoQ~OW Hilson ttddreos 1 whq.re wqs, it? flliern was the
11 car physi cally locat~ d 'When it cab.e. to rest?
12 : It was on tha parkin g lot of the p:rendses 'l1hich
A
)$ is tho- Magi-cal Castle hs:ro.. It .is an tho sa,.ne g~o'-10d. The
H :; .
I
ap.aztment build ing direc tly acxosn fl:om it ou tho parkin g
.- < ' '
' - ,.

1s '1.ot. That. is all l on~ say..

16- ~ 'Wha.t is the Hagia ~l CAStl e, ~rz.. C1:owe?
\7- , ,,
A. lt; is a club th~t is ..owned by ma:gic:i.ans,
18 Q - Ancl that ia noar r;-~ anklin and what int~rs ect.io n?
'19 .t't I knon tt. is in the. 6900 b1ock.,. Maybe 32,, 37 ~
~I) ~omething like that. 6932 6+ som~thina.
it Q tlhc..t is tltc nea:r.eo:.: crons stree t to this
22 address?
,~$ .A 'rhe Magic Custle ?
To thi:o cddros s. thct you wont t.o; the neare st

2~ ~-.
. '25,
,',,
north and south street ? .
. .
26 ..1 ?lo:rth and sou~h~ y.ou say?
,,
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Q It i;s .a fact. tbs ,'.F;raliklin. tuns east -and ~est7

'

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A Right:.
3 Q;

4 south st~eet to the address that is, Rosina'a ap~tm.ent?

' \, . ' ( l - ' ', ' , '

5 A . I know to .th~. south l{ou;d be Hollywood, lloule-

' ' '
"
. '6 vard. i'o the north is u.ukno~n.. There. is no st~-eet that
7 tuns that. way., I don't tmink, I don 1 t know.. It is up
1.n the hills or- some.thiJJ.g.. I dontt lmow the na:m~ of the
..lOb fls: .: 9' ,'', ' street.
10

11

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1 is ..

14
:,.a

15
16
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18 :

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25.

26
 21 .. 762

lOb
i
r.;r. Crowe, my question is as to what street runs

2
north and -south th~t is clQsest to tnis add~eaa.

3
X l.m not aski~g for a $tl."'eet that :t-u,ns east and

4 west.lik~ lioliy~ood Boulevard. My question ~a what north

5 and south street is the clo5est to thia ~d9ress where Rosina

6. lives o~ 11:ved?
7 From my J ude;ntent, my memory, like Highland is east _:
,,".
l}' and La ;Brea is west.
9 Am I r~ght? o~ what?
10 Oi I don't know!} r,1x-. Crowe.

1)- A. You can. -say -~ast or weflt . , and I can give you an
12 q.D.swe~; :but no.rth and south f the 9nly thins I can ea1,
south ts Hollywood Boulevard.

13
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14 :Now., north., I don 1 t know; ,unless y--ou go up. -one of

J.5 the stree~s and go up ih the bills, ~nd I qon't knQw the
11> tietne .of the street beyond Franklin. \lP in the hills.

17' So~ the only thing that I can relate to is HolJ.Jwooi

'.I

1!3 ' BQul~vard. $ which 1$ south.

i9:
.Q. Well, can you relate j:o Highland Avenue; wl.11:ch ia

~ north and south?

-2!- .Yes, I can do that.

Between Highl~nd and La Brea on Fraruclin.
?hi~ address, then, is between Highland and La B~ea
' "
t1n Frank:it.n~ .
.
} 2;

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26 Q. , ~t 1~ ot1 the no~th or. the south side of Franklin?

t "
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 2.1,763

1 Ji.. I.tis on the north side of Frankl.in.

2 And do you know where the Landmark Hotel is1

s
. A. Motel
4 Yes, l do.
5 ~ How a~ is it from the Landmark?

~
6 A. ;I couldn:'t give you an et'aot ef?t1mate. Maybe I
,.,.
7 C<\m ;aay _.,.
t!I
,P. :8' Q: G1,.ve us the numb~~- o.f feet away from the Landmark.

9 ' -A. Well., l wouldn't go so far as to say feet,. I

10 .. dontt lenow. :i~aybe a block 4)r two, or something. Saying
11 offhand, you know. I don't ,laiow.
12 Wp.ile you were .sitti~g in the car, you happened
}3 to ~ee sqmeone you- know walking on Franl<:l:Ln Avenue?
No~ I couldntt see really on Franklin Avenue if
1$, I am i~ the parking lot,_ th~ position that I .am p.arked in.
:J6 Tbe people .tha,t were on the premises _
lou meai:i the p~ople on the p~em,1sea were people tha ~
, '
1s you Knew?
Pet)ple that I knew s ye$.
A!l'd while Jim and Del. were awa:1 -

21: 'out ot my vision when th~y were in the apartment

~: house ..
';

~: ,Y:ou .struck up a conversation with people that you

knew:.
.,

. '.

._+: . So!11eone ~aid,

1 < ' ~
lliji n
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to me, and. I said, "H-1 u t.o
..

. 20. thetn:~' 11:haw a~e you. :eee~tng',.n f!t cetera.I and so- forth

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 21,,.764

Someone that you had seen befqre?

Yei ..

4,
Did you know the name of this person1

<
. .
I couldn't rec~ll that nqw~ no.
Then, when Del and J'i:ui, came back 1 they -came
5

baek in the company or other peopl.e; is that, ri,ght?

;7
Je$.
I ~-

With whom did thei come baok1

With Rosina and T~x.

. 10'
Rosina and Text ~ight? Is that all?
Yes.
12
And then when Rosina and Tex came with Jim and
Del, diu those fou~ paople all get into t4e automobile?
,,.,.

. 13 '

14
Y.~s, Uh-hub.

15 .
And arte~ --
A. It would be ti'.ve., wouldn't 11;?
i6 .
17
Q, Pardon? Four people ~nd you woulQ :make rive;

18
right.
.
'19.
l{.. Right,.

20.
Q,, Okay.

'21
Nows af'ter those fou~ peopl.e got into the automo-
bile.with you, wa~ there a conversation?

23
Yes.
24.
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 21 .. 765
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lOc-1 Q; ' ; '

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.,? Wou:ld
\
Y,ou. tall. us what .was,. $aid
.I. i ' '
by eac:h p-el:'son
'

3 in the. automobile afta:r

I
di~, fol.l'r. people a:e.tut'ne..d t'~ tl1e
4. automobile7 ;.
; .. ~f ':.. t

5 Eell, they ~~t in. ~ ~ ,vXb.is is. Pbppa. Poppa,

f
,,6 This is Rosin~s $ old ~ru.1.u An~ tl1a,t;"wci:;i it.

I ' ( ' '

:t, Something else was said about: music or som.ethirlg.

"
i;; 8 songs .or something. '.t juot can! t: rem.em.ho~ what the conve.:r:--
9 ' . ,satien w~s based about.
10 iex wcs saying sotnething about -- we w~~e
(
ii talking about music; we h$d the ~a4io on and it was nice
12 ' il.1.USi(i Ol't,.

- .
' .:tS I just -can.l t, roznember what the converSAtion was.
14. .based upon,
15 i Uould you please t~ll us wh~t was sa:t.4 by
16 '. each .per.son?
g A 'I couldn't recall th~ cpnversa.tion.
1~ _You. mt'Hinj as. far aa :t;ntroducin.g, l eltplained
' 19. that. to. ypu.
'~
" ., ,. '"" 20 As far as the 'tll..lSic,, I ctm t remember the
'21 convor.sation,. but I know- it was basically al,out the type
i'
22 of music you like cl t,rciups, whatever, songs OJ: someth1ng~
23 I don rt krtow... I can rt r.elll,elJlbet' ~

,.: ~4

-~~

'26
Q' You said socmething right tvhen those. our
people .came hack to the car, wlt~n. those four people -~ntere~
the .autom.ob:tle7

'I-: ,
:.,.~~~- :::GieloDrive.com
. ioc-2 1 '.
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Yes .
Q Would you tel l. qs --~hat
you $ai d, Mr,. Crowe?

-- ,A l ~ say ing tb.o;1

' '

:the y said uxlii.s;_ ;t~

, 1- '
''
t 'when the y got in the car ,
\

Te~.
./

''l'e~, thi s iti foppa_._ _ Fop_pai thi s

'' .
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'

' > L o,_ ;

' -

is ?-et, thi,.s is;-Ro:Sine s i-01d,rqan,;1, 1t _

t '
- -1
- 5 I
.... ' ~ I ~ lo-+'.,-

6 I sai d, '.'Hi, 11 and sho ok hi$ _hand~ . .,: " <' \ ' ' - -1 ,'
.,J
'

Tha t was it.: . ij~ wasi .;tn /t:\le bac k ,-seat~

Ros ine

. ,g was in the mic;1dlf;;h, Del wa.$ on w.y ;rig ht

t
and
' -~- We star t.ed driv ing , and I tum ~d ~usic on,
w,e were ta1k:l.ng a-bout music:.
:t can t rec ~1l the cof ive: rsat ion abo ut
the m.u-aic,

12. or whatever.
tion was
- 13
Q. . Then at .sometime the nar cot ics tran sac
14 d:i.sc.u$sed; :right:?
?
.After the se ),eo ple came b.ack to th~ c-a,:
A Not rea lly .
J:7 We11, you say t?,ot rea lly- . What do you mean. by

:18 tha.t-1
- 1? No~ l caxv t reme.rnb~r any con ver $at ion on
the
. -2Q . 'Way.
'
. It 11as jus t the ba_sic. cas ual convers
at:i.on bet,,eca
y kne ~ ~hat.. we ha~ .
, th~ peo pl~- s in the cat' , becat.t:se 'We ll-lr' ead
.
2a . to do. The~e waa no nee-d 1n .
disc.us:si.rtg :t:.t.io l-Jhat ..d()---yotr
t" _......_.. .............. '

.,
'Want to (l:l$ cus s. abo ut -;Lt ?-...
24:
."--- !~ - -:tt. wil. l be done or,'
2S.

2~ .
I
you know,. one or the oth er.
mean, when we get there',;-

CieioOrive.corn
 21.767

Q Pire ating your atte'Q .tion -tQ your state .of rtdnd;

Mt. Ci-ott1e.,, -would you t~11 us when did yo~ firs t think
that
'
you were. goi'p.g to El l,tonte that night?, When did lt fits t
4 . com.e i:uto ,Yo"r ll1ind. that ;yo~ were going to El Monte:?
5 A Afte r I was $!~fn ditec tton$ and I was sseing
t. } ' J

th~ signs, on,th~ ~~~~ wJy.

- ,i'
. they .S~id J Y,Q_U:. knO.W~ __lf~e _-a turn off here~ II
{ ~ , ".,_ ~.. I "I 1 -'t - 1 r

you It.now~ And it said 11 E-1 Monte II &

I
.Pat-d on?
, r , ' ' .
A, So1neone ha_d t~ld nte ,_ u.Make a turn of. here , n
-n .; you know, et cete ra..
. '
,12 'Who was telli ng you? Who was. di~ecti-rtg you?
l c,,an. 1 t remember,. reall y.. I real ly csn 1t.

.- ,,1<1,

t
A
rem.emJ;e:r::..
-donlf;: know.,
lt could ha11e been t'ex, Del, , Jilll. or Rosi na.
I ca~ t ~b er that close lyl'

~'I . . of the money?

'
~8 '' A No.,
'
".Che conv ersat ion. abou t the maz-iju.ana, we d:idni t
43ven talk. .about that aftemq~r:ds.
2l_ I m.e~11, eve,::-yl:>ody kn.ew what they had to dq.
- .
Th~t: wae it....
They wei:e just doing tt..

-~--
y ~

, ,26

--er'"=iYe.C:
- - - -~ _. c""llelOI ,_
:Q"ll
,_ .
 . .,-,_ 7hA

lOd-l :i:
~ Everybody knew what they had to do?

; .o~
'.2 h. what tbet, were gotng ta:, do,. or whatever ..

3 ~ On what do you base the statement that eve~ybodf

4 !:n~e ul13:': th1;y had to do? llauld ?OU tell us what yott base
" 5 that stt.t.eti:iJnt on:i. Mr.-. 'Crowe?

. 6
~
.... ~"'11 :
. 1,.,.... ~ t
.JUS. s ,ryy tb;-,t e"".eryo ne -- wow -- what are
i;,,

'!
1 you doini :t,o r.10?
<t

Bxcuse ne. l um sorry.

' ,8

9' Thi;1re w:,:s . no . sp~tfial ;;;.e'lnine; behind th~ statement.

10 It is jus~ 'th~ wqy it co.me .out. I ~ not t~p well ~o:ucated,

': ... ~. ,.. ' ~ t ,' ,_J- ~ ""

11 y-ou know. ~' . Fot1rth

'.
gra.dt) . -. 1 am; tr;,ing to ;reiate ~s. much as

:12 I possibly. c~n~

.
-l

}
~.
\}
~
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~

. .. l- r ..,, . I '

1'3
.

Fourth grade ,-.but yo.u liv,e

I I - I \ j i

on Woodrow Wilson
,. \ .f "

e; ~4 D~ive.
~ }" .... j -
' i
\
'
-l, ... '

??? 15 P.:. Do~s that have anythin:::;. to d,o with :my foi:mer

J.6 educat1~n1 What.about 1-cnowledse and wisdom and unde~-

17 standinB; or oneself? Can that handle the situation 0 what-
18, e.ver you irt~nt to Jfu,qw? _
'
w Q . You have done very well in the material. things ot
C 20 life, haven 1 t you?
",~:~
A. '
:):t all depends
'21:
v,t
.~2 THE C0UR1:f: Get on :with y-our. examination, Mr. Kanarek
:23 aY MR.. ~l\:NA:fUi:l(: . ':1

. 24. Q, Mr.. Crowe, direQting your attention to the term

..
'25

26
uold ..nan n tl1at- Ros.ina -- or JJ!ex was spoken
old man,, .
-0 as Rosina s

,._.
___ _
Cielc~c-ive.cc-.,1
 -f - - ~ - - ~ - . . , , . , . . , , . . . , - - - - - , - - . . , . . , . . . .......... -,=-,--....,---,.-r,--,-,.,..._-,_,....,,...,_ _...,.._............,,..,_.,-,,
..---,-.- - - , - - - - , - - - - , - - - ~
',. .
. .
..
.. , ' 'ft t JI l- ~' ,
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.;i

11
~
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1'1ould yciut.'e11 us, what is jour State or mind.,
1 .' '
.,
.
J' '"

.... . . r, 'I! I

,wba.t dp~s that l!lean:'l ., ,

,., ~,(

2 '
MR. l3UGLlOSJ;:
f

i:rrei-evant.
- : ,.. I

i{R.. KANl~F.El{: . Thin ~o~s to 'tftl,ri --

'. 5 . ~R. BUGLIOSl: l~reievant.
! .'
THE UOIJRT: Sustained.
. 7 r,JR, .KANllREK: J,:ay- w_e aJ;.lproach tbe b-ench?
.p .s. THE OOURT: The- ob.,j-eetion :::f.t{ sustained
I

9 AS}: ,yo1J.r ne.xt (!uesti.on.

i,
' . I
. ' ' I '

.IQ B!l MR- K~ARBK:

1:1!

12 IIR.. BUGLIOSI: '.r:i:-relevant ..

f.,- ,.. ,-,

, . THE COURT: Sustained.

. ' '
-... '

bllt.. a:iJGLIOSit Just a. moment~ Tne~e is an objection~

:16 ' T1IE 00.U:RIJ.i:
',
Walt fo:r the qul.:!stion,. kw. C-rowe_
n I

THE WITUESS: I am ao~ry.

'18- BY 1.JR. 1{:NAREK:

Q,' You have heard the word ttoid ma.nu be.tore; ts that
. -~ .'
,,
19 ..

i' ~
t.}'
.20 l:'ight'f .
I,
. im,. l?UGI;.IOSI: That ~s ir:i:-e:.tevan:t
,;
.
22 Tli)l COURT: Sustained.
,23, DQ you hav.e any more ex~ino.ti-o~.. 1-:r. Kan~.elt?

-
'
24 HonQ~.
Yes> ~OU!'
. .
--
. '
I '
Proceed with it
26 IlR. KAMAREK: Q
1 ,_11.

CieloDrNe.com
 ,.

,, }. . ,. ' .. ~ .. ' . ' '. ' :~

' .

1 ~-ir. ',Jats:on .look. 11.ke.. a. r.,upp~ dot; :to yoUct.

< ,. < ' -

, '
3 Honor.
Busta:tn0u./ . '+ ''
,4 nlE COURTt ' ' ' .
l . :'.

iia... 13UGLl:OSI; H:).i t a 1:1hile .

;.
7, 1'1hen there i~ f',U object.ion, yQu .i1ave t;o wa;i.t. for
$ the Court to rle,
9 Nl:t. KAlJAREi( ! our Honor _.,.

10 ~HE COURT: The objection is ;JUstained.

1t

12 ~ . 1-~. Crowe, did r.lr. W~tGn/1 did he loql:: like a

1'3 robot to you1
.. e"..
1

...
f
'
\

;( ' i4 Do .,"tt.ou knou ~l'hat I mea.n b~?., a l?obot? '

. 15 Yes~. I do
D:1.d he loQk like hG had L:echaniual arrus J
l7

18 rm, l3UGLIOSI: It is obj e~tionable, !iu.t I will withdra'w

19 the object.ton, ~1 our Honor.
-~.
,~,~
. ,20 .. THE 00.URT: I ~till ~usta:Ln lll:'>' mm ob_j e6tion
21
i'""'
2,2:
DY

Enr;lizh '
. lan.:;u~ge ui thout Zi.nS inpedir.:.ont,. J.'i.r. Cl'owe?

.., ..
,26-
. '

bid n~ -~t.uttor or unythin~ lik~ that?

don I t think S"O. I don~ t thin~:: so

: lOe Cielo0rive.COl11
 2L. 771

1 ~ n1d he aeem i1ke he was oper~ti~g under bis own

~
s
po.w~r wnen h',; wa.lkad?
power, or did he seem like someon, had strings on h~m, a
puppet? :Old he: look 11~~
P;ld be aeem

a :puppet to you?
ti> 'wal.lC under his own

''

5 lio . B:e loolced l.ilce a man tnav :La respQns1b le.

6 tfe-ry ~ttsponsible Md knew what he- was doipg?
7 7leo. As far as I :new,.. yes.

l;l I ,;:Yasn 't con.f'zaonted wlth bis -condition. I m:ean,
nothing . . .
g
there was .I : extaol!dina;ry,. noth:Lne; odd, about his walki~~
10,
o;i;, talld,ng. 0:t? :it the.re- was, I i1dn 't notice- 1 t a.t the t1JIJ.e.
n If. th~r~ w~s;; I 11ou ld have t.a;lcen 1 t for a r~g~lai+
12 physical thing of his. oWrt~ whatever,. you lcnow.. I don't know.
-13. Q, . How lon3 did :tt take to get tQ' El l'(i9nte,, if.a;-. Crowe?.
14 i\.. Like I said be~ore., as long as it talces .t'roro
15 noi:iyw:ood to El l~onte. It coul.d bE} 20 minut~s to a halt
16 ho1,1x-. I don.' t- know. I :really didn t t time it.
4

Th~ msic was g1rig 'on, thet>e was conversatiQn

' . "

18 ~bout nusic, you kn()ii~/Ert;''ietera, so I really didn't clock

- ~.' 1 . ' .
t , " r
'\9' it
<I
'~ -, ;
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I :

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<' ..

20 Q, 0t1: ,your way io El- -Ilfoute :i ~ did.: 'riw. ' W~tsop .~s.~op and
I ," / ,, , f r '- - ~ ... ..

2t fi}t any dune btlg$1es? . , J

22 xm. BUGL;!OSl-: ttilli;}, 1,s., ,$1.liy j yo~l:' lion,Q,r, a.n(d '. l \,.111
23 object on ~hat ground.
~~ , ~' , , I! ,, ~ I 0 , '

./
j

THE COURT:
,. . Sustained. '

2s ,
- :29 you te~l u~ where- you were> N:r,. ,Oro,,;e?
On rout" way to. El MQnte, would
Whert were you ~d
'. wbere w-.ere the res.t ot the people in t'he ca~?
CieloDrive.can
 21,772

i While we waa driving.t you. mean'?

3, A:
Wllo ' was ',dr:t v~g'2
I was.
You were?
5. ' .
, 6 Will you tell .us "-!~.~~ /t:he rest of' toe people
.
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,.
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'1
' ..'. ,{ ' .

'\'iere in :rela:t:1on'Sh1,p ~ "'AQ.w, to .the car,. while you we:re. going

f J ~ ~ -j. < I

...t'" 8, tci El Monte?~ ~

I , ,- ; -~
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9 $ '\>till x,epeat
< 'f ' r ' I ,

10 Del was on mu ;i;-igbt.

~
in, this f.r,ont seat../ Jinr was
1 ,
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,:_ ' t 1
f

,rt . : :tn the bac~ seat oh my te r l'..',i.ght Rosina was in the mid4le
... '

.12 . And Oha.~11.~ Watson., Te~:, wa;s 'Qn my ejtztem~ :l~f't,.

-
I
~3- Tb.ere were five people 1n the car, right? Five

I
lf ~-eat.a,,. 'l'he cat had bucket seats, just enough ~pace fo~ the
?-& ,people.
J6 . <t Wae Rosina s.itting next to !1!' . Watson?

17 A. Yes,; Certainly.
18 4 4,rtd by what te.:rm did she adQ.reas Mr. Weitson; <lo

~
19 you know? Do you remembe~?
~.
;,:
. 20 A. Tex.
.2'!-. Q And what di_ha c~ll her?
.;.
22 ~ o~ Charlie. One o~ the other~
. ~a: Q; What did he ca.lJ. ,be?'?
2 A. I can it remember, -bepause .mostly when. l heard --

' .
,,
25.

26
T$ COUR':C:. Neve:r
-qu~s1;:Lon .. ,
m:Lno.. You have a;nswe:t'ed tlle

Ciek>Drive.com
 ------- - -- --~~-,---~,...-,---,---,---,-------

21.77?.
... . '

l Atlk your next que$tion .

,2

.:s Q . :m:m:, direet:tng your ,.attenticm, then, Mr. Crowe,

4 to Rosina ..
5 A.

' '
6 A tall, th:J,.n siri.," that :i~, a::1.~_.. : - :r ...
,
1 Q,
}

:About how old? Was she b1aci or wpite?

< ~
8 A. She was white i ~- ! .
'
.9 About how old. did she appea:r to ;y-.c:,u tq l;>e.?
L I ,i .. ' '1 - ~
. ' ' . .i
IO . A. :Ct is ver;./ hard to tell these -day:a I. don't know .
1-1 About -24-> 25., 26. .She was a woman .
12. Q Pardon?

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i'B

1~

15
/,,,
Q,

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She wa.s a won:art ~ you kno,1
She wasn't-a teenager?
No.. She wa.s a. itoman..,. a t11-grown woman...

'J6 Q;. I11rect1ne .your attention, Mr. Crowe, to

17 . ,, Nr. t;~t$Pn, did Mr~ Wa~son talk?
18 headae spo~e duri~g the trlp; right? He d1dn 1 t hang
19 his I ttnd .sort ot look s.c-ared aoout ~ver.ythingJ rj,.gb,t?

' ,'
e
~:~ ... f ,'
~o -I was drivinfh, ;remembe:r.. You know, I wa.13nrt in th~
2l back seat . I was dr1 v-ing and Ile was _on ~y far left. So
22 .tn.at. would make :t,e slightly diff':Lault tor me to 1001:t .at
~a hinJ.11 ,
- 24. I am loqkins at Rosina if I am looking thro~e;b my .
.
'2i> rearview mirro~.
LJf 26

C9aol#'-df
K,I\AJI
=--.,~ V'l.io
~-=-=-
COi-
I I
,
 ' I

101'- 1 ~ Ie$-Z
~ O:;;- the s1dev1ew nd.-'.rrQr,
3 So :t . I coul<;in 't re.~llY notice his nerves,. hi$
. . .
11 . :race; or I co:uldn rt see hi'n1~ so I .couldri"' t real.).f iay.
s 'Q .But. he part:tcipat ed :1.n t.he direatiri& of you to
6 whe~e y~u were goi~S?
rt could have been him or ~omebody else.
' ' ' ,fl' 8; '' As l stated be~ore, 'I dontt exactly recall"which
9, : one .tol,;d, me to ..get the exit oft', . <;>r who w~e . .g;I. vi~_g 111e

io directi~~s -
J;l. <
Q Would yo.u tell us what ott-r~p you took?

(.-
"
l2, Di(i
.~
you t~ke the San Berrt-ardino Freeway to El Monte'?
~ , '

13 . A.. The ,San B~r.nardino Freeway sound$ logioB:l., ~es.

'.

,. ' .14 Q, Did ~ou get of~ on ~ock Drive Nortn?

)5 :pE;}Ck D.riVt;}? I wouldn t1; llav.e -'!* I don; 't. .remei:nber
that, ! dont think so.. I don't lmow.. I don't know.
17 I can t say,
po yo~ remember what of-.ram~?
19 l kx,iow it was in El ifonte b~cal,lse I see.n a
si.gn that sai-d El Mont~. That is all I know.
' '

21 'l, , : Al'ld do ,you know -what. etreet you went to?

_'22 No, I dontt.,
''
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'

~3 .Did you go to a resident~al neighborhood~

Yf;;l-s .. .'

25- Wbe yo~.rin&lly stopped yo~ c.ar?
t
I

Yes#
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_;,.
I~
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...
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.,.,
 .21,,775

l Wa~ it an apa:rtmcnt hot,1$e that ~--ou .;topped the car

.,

.
.2
,I
at?
1t t1as in e. residential avea where there was some
4 ht>llSGD Qn one- sid-;:- o.nd apaz,tmentz and houses on tbe other
5 side.
:' 6 On the sido 1.1herG the apartm~nts we~e 1 th1-S was
,;

111'
7 . ~he apartment tnat Tet. w~nt into.
" 8' Q, And ~~ou nt.o:;,peQ. t.he car,,. r1-gbt;, at someone ts
9 reque::}t who 3~id,. nHel"e ~re
. '
nre 1t; . 'right?
lO t.. l t 1G your pat'don?
11 Q,. So~ebod!r .J.a-id,, "Ue are he!'!~ , a.top, thia is. the
,, ' ' 'I

12 :, place_, '!;;}.lip. tlUSt be the pltt1ieU; 'c;ml:'re,ot?

' --
I

. --
rs

15
fl...

'I stopped. .
Q,
Someone

I Gee.
lWJ.~t !lave. said .st>mething lilte th&,1; becau&'f!

16 _.... So:-- a.fte~ you a.topped the oa.r, did; someone ~et out 1~ .

11 . the car?
J~ . Ji,. Not at that partic.u-lar timts. There was con-ver.sa,t10j~
"
,.. . 19 - . f:trs:t , .and then $omeone sot out. .
20 Q, All right:.
21 " . Tell ua. what everybody said in tb:ls eonve-11sJ;Ltion
art.er you stopped the c~-
23
'
~ex asked for tne mon~y.
. He said, Give me .the
.A 11

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:.,, .25

aricl l s-~led.
1 looked at Del and Del looked at me and Jim,
.. ,. .\
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 - 21~716 .

And I says! uwe-tl,. i:h ~.a.13n't s,upp.osed to be like

i
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'2
tha.t. I <lidn't have any unders:tanding.it was like th~t.. i,

3
_ ! said: "My tmd~:t.:t~.tanding was that we would: go

4
O\lt or\ yOU_, know, jtOU . WOUld bring it~ .a,nd you WOUld CQ-llect ,

5
'-the pioney. You o.idn 't say ~e h9.d t.c> i:'e.rund it to y-ou. an,d

6
).eave y.ou. 1~

,7 And he aske.Ci. tr.e what L-.th1rtk~

8
And I ,,s_~id., 11 Well, 1t is. up to you. You tn9w

g these . people and I don 1t .. tt

' '

10, "r aat.d, 1tt1"e11 , r will ~ive you the money, an<! do

-iL
,,With it What tOU Want tQ. dO with it. H.
-1~ An.4. ne hesita.t~d, but he accepted. .tt.
' '

-
1'3- Ano. she ~ai.4-, "Well, I. wi-l.l make ii; up -to you'-
I can stand up toX! the money 1:t" .it .is lost., o:r whaite-ver.
.. 14

l,5 l: know him~ I mean~ ~e ha.ve be,::.m toge:thc:r $ix montns:.

16 ~ey. u:sed to be matr1,e4,:.

t,
'. ~hey wo.nte.d to _get married and go
" - *'
- .. \ < , .,e. ~ '
11 -out to t.h~ 'Tanen. and live tor;etner> et .cetera.. n
~ J.,. .. ' L > ' I I'- I = :_., ,~ ~ -I

f '*' don tt t~i~I\ t.~a~ he WQu).d .dtl t.h~t, .,

T c '

JS. i'='
-'".,- .~ , ~ f. , ' r >

'19'' So'" I r;ompletely washed ruy .hands ot the wb;cile

' . '
*pon
'-l!i,. ' '

~o s.it,uatit'.>n., 'and he took .it. :himilel:f":, 'and ,'th~;y,a.c-oept:ed

,,.i >, (
,,
< I

21
,, ~ ~
sI ~ '

.2Z As I ga-ve De-.i the money arl,d he gave. it to 'Tex,.

' ' '
23 I. had a~ int~ition that I ahouia get out or the car and s~e
,24 whe-;r,e ne. w~s going. It w.a:s. an imp~lS1 \re ~eaction from
'25- . my-ael.f alone. I didn rt :;ie& -it.. I j.ust. _felt j.t t.nat 1.t. w~srr. t
2 goins to go through afte~ he le;ft rriy -pre.aenoe.
You ~ow.,, I jus.t. felt that way whiah 1s a-o:inethi:g -'.
 21.,777

l and Del save-

Q ' .Aud so you hat:1ded .the money to. l)e.
2 the mon~y to Mr~ WatsQn, rig ht?
. 3 A TM ts cpr rec t ..
4' Q. Did you count the moIW!y?
s A Who, me?
Q. Yeah ..
'.,; ..
A I d;d pri ot,~,. ~ar iy. tha t nig l)t, yeah~.
' I: ~
~
0-
~

~

l.E:..You
~:
Q. -Did yot.t <:oiint e-he m9n.ey at ani t;itn~:e wh,i
~ .. '. ,. ,: . ' : ' . . .' ,, ;; . , , . , , .
,-
.. 9
wer e $..n ~he o~ ?
i . , . . .- . . , ,
.
No, t did ' not ~ hav e t'<;>, I. ~knew wruit I had
lQ ,; ;,
A, '
' ,j,. 1

, :
' '
,
1
' :

~ .. r .
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Did anyone, -cot:1~ ;t;b.~ mo1,leyi :
1 ,

Q ,. ..
I had .
A No,, the y d:Ld uo~ h~ve J:o;, lie ~e. w /WMF ' ' J ~~ i
:

13,
:Your ~o:r.d is,_ yoqr' :bond, you know 1 th:at 1$ it.
:14 ' THE COURT.: Answe,: the qu esti on;
sir ~

Now, lis ten to the que stio n, . .Don t

volunteer
. 1$ .' . .
'
que a-ti on .and Ms we r t~a t qq. esti on.
16 any thin gl< , Lis ten -to the
11 BY MR. KANAREl{:

, Te.Jt .got .
18
Q So aft er you han ~d the xnoney to ~ex
l? out of .
,'
the car~ .righ~?' .
'Te~ got
Or aft er Del han ded :f:he -mon~y to tex
_,,
...
' -"'!~ -
'
2J)

out of -the (!ar?:

A Yes, th~ t 1 a Z"ight.
23 . Q Did anybody e.l.se get out 0 the -car at tha t

- 25

26
A I did .
You got o~t of the car?
CieloDrive.com
 21 .. 778-

. , ,ll-2 1, A Not at the. s.MJ.e .time he did, but afterwa:t:'clS ..

.,
:-
.
2

3'
Q .All rig~t , Te~ got -out of the car and then --
Did you sea wh4re '!'ex :went?
.
4 Ile ente;G<d .into the anttan ce of an apartm ent
5 btldi ng,; li:ke dupl~x es ! gueg;s, house::; on top of eaeh
other , uext to each. other , et cet;o:r:a: .
1~.
'1 .'~ Did you tal~e do~n the numba~ 0 the hou$e?
8 Ho, I did not...
no you J:'.eme.mper t~~ ,. 1;1.tm;tber of the house?
' (
..! '

io. Ho,- . I -4on;tt ..

} ., t
.
,
,,
..

11:' You.. d.onr t .. rcm~b e,:. tJ1,e n~~ of the st:i:-ee,.

t - .
t7
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.tl ~ m,. ' .

,
' ., '~ < < .,. ~ .P \

13 -

14 ,

,15.' :
~
#:l.met 1:ight?
And -so 'Telt. i;lisat,p aai-cd :.Er~m.

Yes.
r .... :.
' .
.
,_.
, ~ ~
yow;; vie:w at that
1
. ,
'.1r ,1
,;

' ,,
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j 1 '

Q An<l so thaie was left in the .aut?mobiie yeu,.

1'l Uel.~ Jim and ll.osina, is that right?
' :l~ Yes.
. . . ~

'19 How long dtd you stuy in the automobil(! before

.2i)- '_ you ,,g9t out -- you,, Mr. Cr.owe, $Ot out of the ,autQm obile?
:2i A May- I have :poI.'Illiosion to ask him someth ing?
...
~ TI1);1 COURT: Just .answe1: the questi on, sir.
2a :rim Win."ESS: I don 1 t ful.ly undex -st~d what he is
24 ta-lk;tng nbout.
25 THE COURT: . Then say $q. You did not under stand the.
26 , l~st -qnostion?

CielolJiive.can
 . ~l'l 77Q

. nm .WITNESij: No.
ll-3" l

2 'Would you r.ephra $e the .qu~sti:o~, please .

,

-3. . l4R. KlllREK: Certainly.,. Mr, Crowe . .

4, 'l ' At some time Tc:; .~ob. out of the autontobil.e
5 ,, .and disapp eared, right.?

6 A Yes ..

7 lle di$t1;ppcared into this home in El Monte or

& this apa,rtmont in El l!onte , :i:i3ht? .
9 Ji, Yes ..

10 Q And after Tex di~.:tppe:a-red, oometime elapse d and

11 th~n you got out~ th~ aut~9 bi1a, right? 'It ' r - ~

' / ' ~ ;~ ,. -.

t2 Yes. i_ / -!-
~
' , I ,

n....
Uore; io.u. tl1.c first on~~ to .get -0t of ,the -

-
13
,a r
'~
fl
"f-
~
' ._
,- ' -..
11
: II 'I '

1,4, .automppile ~fter Tex dis~pp eared? 1 ,t , :

15 A- Yes . , , . : } '.
q .,. : ' i, .. 'I ii : j . '
16- '.''I. I-Iow much t~- wc1,1e hy :t elapse d, how much time

rt. between the. time that '!'ex. difl'qpp_e~ed. frot;ll y9ur ~ight and
'
, ~ ' 1

18, you got s,ut of the autom:o'bile?

19' Ij,, . /'!. minute o;- 1ess.
..
\

. '

~
''
AJ.l right, you. got out..
Q then what c;l:td. you do
21 afte~ you got out?
~ I physiu all;y. rnn to- the;1 same ""e$it-, to Se(! where
~2
.
23' he was ,going.
24" '
~ And yotl, ran th,:oug h -this door, r.ight'?
went throug h,.
:2_5

.26
: A -
t?.
The same door he
The door to the apartm ent house?
yes
 .' . .

11--4 . :i. ' A Yes.

& .
'i

~
.
-Q
'
liilat did you sec1
lrpthin g.
j

0, Nothin g?
5 ~ Hous~s, flo1-tars and trees.
~
;.
Q ~ Uousas,. loiter s and t:r:ces) but no Xo-x.?
,.
i. 1' .;,-J. Right: ... ,
~
8. q,. Tex had .......
9 .A ., . .... v~sho .d
10 Q,
A Gone.
:12 Q
.'
...
!.,. '
'' ' 1$ ..

i4,
~ "'

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Yes ..
~igh.t:.7 .,

. ....
-f t ~ I

;
'< 15.

~6 ,i,, ,.
J;.
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.
flt
. .-~ . ;..
. . .

that timo did: you think Te:s: wa_s- s.o~t :of

. . . \ :

. 17 a puppyd ot, .a l:tttla $tupid i . . :~. 1

~ , ~ ...~, - !;.

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"
,,
., ,;
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. '
1-$., BUOLI-OSI:
'
Calis fo't! a conclusion. ,. " ~ ..
. .--
r .19

~O :SY
1!$ COmtT:
int- ~ K :
su:st~in ed ..,:

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.
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,
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-~

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'21' ; .. Q. Now, then* nf'ter you got out of the car did
...
'l2 . on.)'ona -~l~e tllat t-1as lcft in the car get out;? :-
'23' ' A Not afte:t a pe;r:iod of .t~....
Hoi1 long -wsa it --- bcw long lu1s itt before
I - '
'

~.. 2s any.e else got; n~t of the car2,

2~ ? Jl About a h~lf hottt we all got out except Rosina.

-- -~_.,..________ - ~ - -......... .
-.-.
I
I 21_7g1

11~5 Q Except Rosina?, ..

l'
Yes. .

'A
-
~ 1 ' ,1 t! t, I

Q . tn ot~~t .1"1ords, Jim and Del and yourse lf got

4,
out;: of the
'IF
oat,
' '
iight1 . - ';
f .
,
"..~ Ii~ ~ ' t ~
.
ii I ...., -

Del uric:1 then> we looked

Ii,

A. . , . We'll;, first me. and

5

. around and came back arl:d' .Jim: {;\lld tnys~lf went out, ;at:iQ.'~ then
1

. 6 r , '

we cane back~ you know, and that was it.

. . ~ \
~
'Ii , ,'.,, 1
' \

Q; And you ?tl.d jifu ~cl Del p~aceeded: td go into

9
Vat".:lous p-oreions of that area. looking for Te:s:, right?.
.A Yes.
10: ',

it
Did you knock at any .doors?
.A . No ..
1Z
nhat did yo. do? ,

13,'
'
1:4 '
A Just looked atirl whatev er, just looked.
is Well, -where di.d you look?
-Athe grounds or whatever, just hoping to see
o~
17 something 'O:t whatev e,:, .some peo.ple .talkin g lot:Jd, maybe

J8
~ _,s):iade open~ maybe p.eop;le had seen them~ what:eve:r:, just --

19 . Q You did a _1itt1e p~i;aping in ~.indows?

No, I say l.t'IJ a .good possib ility sotneone 1',s
A

21 -blinds . might open and he nt).ly be in that: particu lar

.
' '.-
apar.tmep.t or somethi ng,. whateve~. .

.23
We just looked arouhd, or -maybe he tried ~o
24 sn~ak qut --on anothe r pa.art 0 the -4partm ent J>uilding_ -or

-

I
-l ' l'

25. _
something.
'
26
May.be we..tou14 -catch him. It was well ove.r the
-_. ---- ~--

"1-:-m=.;.1~4llia con-~I 7I
'-I ~ V'li,o
 ~'1 '7R?.
"'

. Ll,..6 time he sa_id it would take him. to ge.t it, wh:tc;h was a half
hour>J and he. said 15 o~. 20- rdnu~es $ the time w~ gave hlim.
4
t:he :money...
i
Zeoi. t~~h~ afterw1J.rd, after he had,
did not
;, ..
"

.,.. I -I

'5 you. know., he had. l~:Ct:; t;he. presenc~. .

i -:, '
~ .f ~. ' ..

6- ,~o. io11 l~ok~d. ~usg te bli.nd,i ~f. Vq:e~ntts

7 '
,. s,

S.,!)&t'tmertt$(i. ori tbcs(l p~01!'i.isos,?

'f :I ,/, I ,t

..
..
8, /J. '
I -did not. tiiElY

th,.at.11
"l ,J .. {
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,I

, ,1- , 1 I ,f F ..

Q. You did n.ot7 .-. _, .- ',: .

. '
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10 'NO, l ,., ; . "
- ..
"

. 11 . Yell --
12 .l. l sai~ tho~e was a poosihility, it could have

ls been som.cone 1 s b-lind could ha.ve bocn open l+Ild he IQ.ight b.flv~
14, be~~ in that apartmentor aoine~h~ng,' just looking around,
15 jusi; look:Lns.
:16 Q I see .
~'l Ji. You 'ltnott,. just look:tni;, investigating, I iuess
.18 you. would call :i.t.. or -whntc'Vor
:Lg /md you looked at tho various apartments that
2Q ~e~e in this pnrtioule.r --
'
'', ; lt Ai l1e looked
'
al:'ouncl at ev,cirybody
. ...
a:round us, beh:t.,d.
'

22 bushes, .j-st. ~1alking to see '.behind b~shes and whateve:r,.

' -
23- It was a pr~tty big plo.c;a. ?here wa~ an OJ?en
24: field on tho other side of the apmzbnent b~ilding and it
25 wou14 tal~e some effo~t to ,get acroos th.at l~g~ rield.
~ And just looking b~ind bushes, Y<?U know, maybe
.,

Cielo0m,e.COl11
 ,

'.,
11-7 he ould be hiding behind a step or behind a bush o~ some
~ ' . -thing.
.s THE COURT! You o.nswered the -question.

You looked at ~u.~o~obilas toot maybe; in the

"'''
ears parked ull around th~t ap~~tm~nt house, right?
'

a Q. ,. ,iaj'.d/'161.1 waited,:. 11.nd <,1 c01fVC:tsnti0-.t1 -witb.'.Jim

~ -~7!, - -W-,~ .... i ; " '
or mo't'o'l
C ' ~' ; ~. ,-,, ':.. ': O ~ '.

9.' : and Do1 :eoili :somq l!i m.:i.nutes ; ' , :- ..

lO ., , A I bcz your_,.partl~~? .... -. :' : .. , 1. J' ,
, I , ,. ~ : ' J , '
i Y~u and Del arid Jim ,spoke for seine 15 minutes
!\
waitin~ or the retu:tn of ;~;J?
13 A About a hal hour~ ye$,
Q Pardon?
A ~.\bout a half hour&
16 Q. 1<\nd then your heatt oegan to sink,- rj.ght?'
:puring all of this period of time you felt that yo~r money
~

ha'.(iQ.ore o~ less -- th~t.it was gon~ and you we~e not .goiug
1,9 .. t:o .get your md.rijuana, ;right?
We.figured something mtly_have happened, he
21 got,hung up. in there o~ whatve~.
22 l mean, afte,: the nioney was given to him I
did not eel ~ight at that instant~ afte~ he left my

:.-.,.i '
.~~ .we.
~t. -,
presence; so I. guess probably, I kind of lost faith; shall
say, f~om thAt moment ort.,. I did not hav.e too much fai.th
:ltJ. that, . because l did: d~ this nnd l know the-re is a. t'eason
 21 .. 784

:t1-8 ' i .for~ doin~ it, that i$ all I know~

2 Q When you sa:y ureas.on, n what do you me.ah by that~
Thate i~ a. r.eason to follow to see where he -was '.
' 4

5_ It was s_om~ soz,.t of distrust from xne for him

.at th;;it last moment, I e;uass, o:r whatever.. -
'l
n
1"'{,' In your mind you thought maybe he was a little
s :: ~ricky,- right7
. '
-,

9 .. i~ , lt inust ha.\~~ indi_c-ated that because I got out

, F ,' it ,t ,
io. to ,see wher,c1. , ?4e,' vfos going./
...
ye-of ' l: .did that , and there was .a
~ I 1 ~
"' , .

,11 rcason ~~X' n1e doins it.,._' _ , . -:

1-2 . . Q !:,.nd so :t eftez: sem;ch;lnij tbis a:ren .wit Y.OU.'J;'
' ,i' I \, f ,i ! ' 4 '

13' :friends you ccmc back 't:o the cat-, rtg'ht? " : ; ', .
14 }l Yos, ! ctmip ba.ck . to .the c;ar, .yes_-. , '.
.,, 4 ' .,' ...

ts ~ ~\.11 right,, and then Y,CJU and. Rosina a~d Jim and
16 :. . ne'1, the four of yo~ t!ten left the. area., ;right'l
11 A Yes :i just ~bout a half hour :t an hour and a
18_ half~ pet-haps.
i l!f
:
t
q You stayed thet'e an hourto an how: and a
-; 20 half~ you~ nosinn and tho tbreo- of you-; wai,ting for a
.,
;.1:1 To~ tha~ neve:r:- sho,1ed up; right?
,,;
2.2 .A. Right, uh...t,..uh..
23 ~- 1'...nd so durine, t:his p~1=iod of time of an hour
24 you h~d a gonvet'stttion 'with Rosina and the other people,
-. , 2~, ; ,':ri~ht?.
26, A Yes.

- -
:::6:6~-:ve.com
- - -
-,------,-----,----,--~--~------,-,----~~--------- ---

?1 -.,~,,:;:
--~;;,. -

Q lmd you felt ..... was your &ta.te of mind ~uch

: . 2: - that yo.u thought you had been t;rickec,1 -during thi$- hour
or so?
-4
Not really,, not ma ..

. You thought; that Del ltuS being t:t'i,cked t!hen'l

..
j
~
..
A - I felt tha.t Itosina l-1as boing trick,ed
Q . You thought Ro$:(.Ju1 was b~ing -tricked?.
A - tfn .. buh.-
, it
Q; J.\nd/wao your .mQney, rigbt?
19,
A Yes. ,,
{ ' p... -- .,,,.
)1 :'
Q, You had ndv_oi:,"scen Rosinil ,before in. your life,
. ' . .:. ' , ,~ '

12, :right? /
l - ,.
i -.

.,
1$,

i~
"
i".nd, you felt that Rosina. wns be:lng~ tric1'ed?
"t'"'

'

Yes, I dra.w that. conplus:ion al!te-r th'e ind.dent .

., j
J ,.~
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' '
' ,
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~:
r
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'

16 ~ Hy question is,., as you sat -there 1 with.yourself'

, ~ .. 1 , _ t , .. 1 111

' ,,, t j \ ~
ft-,' and the two other 1,11.an an4 )loijin.a~ you felt that you w~re
,18 being e~icked, after U11 it- wa.,o 'yl.)u~ $2400 :that niote or
. '
less had dj.s~ppea~q-d into the duxkn~:JS of El Monte,. ;right?-

Ii ~ fl
-20
A Yeah ..
1 lla fls . 21

23_

~L.

~ir:,
 llAl 1
So your state or mind at that time was that you

were being t~icked; that you had bee~ tr~cked# r~ght?

2

,S'
& I think at that ~illie she had more to lOBe than I
d:l.d because Jlbe lost, o.i, she ha~ faith in him, ~d ~h~ iet
4
hi~ ~own. Th~t ooula not equal up to. $2,400.

6
I mean, it $a the feeling for another person o~

7'
wnatever, a.n4 ahe h~d cQnt'idenc.e 1h him...
She had confidence in Tex; and Tex bad let he~

9
down, is-th~t right?
A. i;nhat 1 a right .
10 . ,1, .- ...

~ , i, .
. _; Il ,'
, ,Q... Yo.ur state of mind waa sucn that you were \trlhappy
. J
. labciut.the _$2,400?
12'
..
.. ' ' .
'
A . :. +va'I o.iZJplea:aed. I :&,,a.sn 1 t t.U1happy,.

~ ~eii~ Y~'UJ:" state of ~in~ was such that you were

~ 1 '

15
ve'!?$' displeased; isn't that a. fair etatement, .~- Crowe?
10 A. ~+r you, ar~ S'pe-a~i~g of my mind?
f * -,. I ~ ~ ~ I J,, ~I

~ Yes~

-18
A. lT I wanted me to express my mind to yqu $0 you

19
can explain my ~ind to_me ~~
~

~. In your ,mind were yu unhappy with h~ving lost

...
.i,

I
;2L .
tht:? $2.,400?
~

22 A. I didntt part~cularly-... I did not particula~ly,

23-
,y,oll. kno.,.,,. h.at,e anyone :f.'Q:r.: 1 t 0:r -whatever ..

.24
I w~s diapleased slightly, yes. Ir tqe~e .
wasn't
.., . . \ 25 there there would be ~o money. I acknowl~dge that tact,
me
26 and t~a~ should answer the, question.
 l ~ What was tnat, a wba~ 1mowle~g~1
l? A. . I aoknow1e<$ge
. the tact if there wouldn 't be no
,

'

3 ~e tb~re~ there would be no money o~ any~hi ng else, not to

4 me nowhel:'e, so thera.h ~d to be a ma to accept this, to have ..
li a desil;"e for this, is my under:s tanding about :money, I canno t
6, relate to you on that ..
7 tou had never seen RQs:tna 1;:ieto~e in your li.fe?
8 Ri.gbt.
'9 Q,. She meant nath:l;~1g to you?
lo A She meant a whole lot to me, like you mean sqme-
1i tlling to .;me.
' ii ' .,.
12. .9'., . t dare not ask what~ .

' '
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13 .
, '' j
It's. all in your own head~ what~ver you think.
Wae it love at fi~st sight JJetween you ~cl Ros.ina
' '\' ' -\

,: 1s ; Q~ what? You Say all of a sud.den , here: your 2)1'00 'Qucks

.o/
, I ' '
I I

16 had i,ort qf~ disappe ared,' and yo~ are sitting the1'e 1J;i J_ ' ' I
I '
' .,
11 ,, El Mont~,. and are :,cu,1 tel Ung us that at that point you,'
18. we~e teei1,h.g, aort: oi J;r&:d folr ~o.sina., ia that what rou are
. 19 telling i.ls?

~ ~o A. Yea;i and -I. was feeling pa.rtia ll;y,, shall I say, not

21 pity, alight und~rBtanding toward Charli~ Tex, too~ b.eaause

'_.,
~ he did"th isto bimsel 'f, not to me,
23 ~ You meant tha~ ne 4id 1t to himsel f because he
M - ran aft with your dollar s, right?

;, ~$; _ ,. A. No, he r~ of,f with h:ls soul in the: conditi on. tha;
26 it was in ..

CieloDrive.con,
 21,788

1 Q. I see, and would you tel1 me what dq you mean by

.z the.t when ;/QU aay he ran off w.ith. his -aoul'l
.3 . Mtt . BUGLIOSI: ~hat 1$. irrelevant, ::,our -Honor.
4: TltE ..COURT': Sustained- .

$ BY MR. KANAREK,, So then.tou deveioped this

"t .6. feel:t.ne;. for Rosina at .that pQ1rttf sometime du;ving the
.,,.,.
t ~venins ,.. right?
'It is the same te.el:L.ng I have- tor everybOdY: in

:r see. Tnat yp.u became --

Is it a fair a.tatement that you became unhappy
i;i .- about lo$ing the $2,400, ao._ le,t's forget now al;,out RosS.na.,

ia- ; what Wf;:nt -qn in he:r- mind,,.

,.. -' 'I ' ~

14 ,: In you~min~.yd~ would ~atbe~ not na~e been

'O 1.... T > ~ ',

'
- 15 . ' detaohe~ from fq.ux- 2,,.40fh .if.yo:u, ?i<lnot. get- the ma.ri,juana.
- , ~ , ,r ~ , .., , , , ' ~ .. , 1 ~ ~ ,'
~~ ~ ,f', ;. i. _1 Ji. a t ,

16- P. Quite nat1,1raliy. ~ -

17 Right. There :t.13 no: -<au,sti~n-~ -about that? 't
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19 Q,
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., ,2Q happiest man in the _world theJ;"e at Bl Mont~, Califor~:ta?
on:., yea,. "i:t All depends on what yot1r detini tion of
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happipess 1s
Well, is it a t~1~ statement that you were not
~ -- hap.py at what had happerted, Mr. -Orow&t

25

46. '
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either-..
r wasn t di~happy, I wasn't dishappy aboiit. _it

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pe r ce nt , I -lllean.
! wa sn 't pl ea se d'a po ut it 160

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ab ou t 11 ;
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you _los:e- ,$2.,JJo.o :tou canno t- r~ a~
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, Yt?U know
3' '
Bu t' I mean,.yoq know,_ whate
'
v.er.., it 's ju et $Qme
4
u kno w i , ,I boughi,t a gu y .fo
t- $2., 400., ar1q
mone1. th at . go t ,aw ay" yo
s
in k tha tr pe op ;ie we re f9 r sa le . Bu t X POU@.t him .
I 4i d no t th
it
,.so th at is al l th at ts t6
u sa y ;v-o.u bo ug ht him ?
7
-Q, What do. yo u mean .when yo
8' :
va .nt ,.
I Mn.. BUGLxosx: Th at is irr el~
- '.9
fBE 0.0URT: Sti.stai'11eq..
10,
e- 'Of th e
BJ i'7R. KAll:A~K: Mr. C~owe, in th ~ l~ gu ag
d?
is th at oa l1e d be in g burne
11
: na ~o ot tcs tfp e of tra de ,
ele va nt your Ho no r.
!tIR... :l3UG!.,IOSI1 Tb:at 1$ irv
TlIE COURT: SJJsta.;1.ned. ~
e of mi nd s.uch,
Q BY r.m ~ KAllAi.~K! ..Was yo ur st at

16,
fh at I ~as b-urnt1
.
Q
gh t~ wllen th e $21J4.oo ha pp en ed -- wh en it ha pp en ed
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21 .
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Q,
~d why dt d yo u th in k tb
at he- had. be en burned:?
22
A. Secauoe he bu rti t hi ms elf .
;?a '
WJ?.av do. y:o mean by .tha:h?
,.' ' .24. .
IIR. StiGLlOJS:t:' Ir~ ele va n
t

.-25

26
Ma.. K.&.~AREK.: Yo ur HIl,o;r.,. we ar e go ing
to th e sta t~ -ot

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is~~Jss 11t'thies t:tme; lad ies
We wil l tak e oiw
.,or ,zorm. or
.4 and gentlemen., do not .eQnVerr,e. ,wit h anyorie. , r ~
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$UbJec.t ot pet talt~" unt il. thl;.\t

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exp res. s an op~n1o.n on the. ' '
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T1iE cotmri .k\ll deJ:end~~;s elecep;
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.; lm, KANAREK: Thank you, your Hon_or

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' ' ' :
BY MR. KA'NAREKt
f, :Q Now, Mr. Crowe,then at some tune you and. the I ' ' ",

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other thr~e peopla left El Monte and-cam,~ b~ck to Franklin,

, 1
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'8 is that ra,-gh~ 1

Yes.
Did.you go anywhere froiU El Monte 0n the trip
-J~ . back to the Frankl in Avenue adcb;ess, did you stop o-ff any..
12. where?
is A ' ~ro' we did n:ot
Q, You came direct ly b~~kl
15 A Yes. .
16, . Q, Atld about how long was it -- let tne ask you this;
Oi.d you eyer see Tex tiat s01;1 again?
.
18 A No.
.. 19
Q. Yo~ nevei have seen tex Watson again?
.... ' 20 A Mo.
""' ';Ill,

Q Right?
A Right.
. .
23, ~ -Then you came ha.ck .then you. came back nnd
~4. wl?,en you got to the F~ankl iri Avert.ti~ add'iess whe;re did.
5 '
2'
'J.im- and Del ~o_1
(;)

A Where did they go?

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llb-2 1 - Yes; when -yqu got to tjie .hank.1tn Av~nu.e.<- ' {

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did tb.ey come in? IT ',

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A Yes:> w~ all went in tQget~q:t. ! ,_
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,Q All. f'ottt of you? , -. ' t

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5 A - Yes.
6 Q . You parked. the c~ on the lot., on the str~et ~ _
A On the lot; ys.
,.~
8- "Q Who d;-ova -back?
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10 QAnd then _yell went into the house, and while
you were in the houae you had cQnversation with Rosina?
12 ,' A teah,. we: we.~ a-11 t~kin g ye-s-.
Q And_ Del.?
l4_, A-' l'e,$,.
. 15 Q And Jim?
16 A

, 17i ,, q .' And you wete disau.ssing Xe~, right?

:1,s A Yes.
- .And the fact that Xe~ ha4 not come back after
,: 29 ha'!.~ left you, right'2
A :Right .
:22 Q And th.~t was the m.nin topic af onversa~ion~
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~4'. A les.,

. , 2s, Q - And 1-ms your state: of mind at that time, -when

26 you got ha.ck to the hottse , "Was -it that you we,:-e a littl~

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llb~3 -1 unhappy-,. to say the least~ -ab~ut 1 tosing the $2400, ,ts

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that .. ri-ght.? . ~" ~ ~

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Uell., when you got back
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,~ . '6"" the ma:i:::i.juana for the $2400, or getting yoti;r' -$24-oo pack,, ',
... ,;t.
7 r:tsht?
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8 A I was not unhappy, as l explainea to you_before,
I

I wasn't unltnppy, I w~snt pl~as.e.ci apout what h-a.ppen~d,.

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'IQ Q, You conducted all of the search and allr of'
it that, you becqllle apprehensive wben Hr~ t,:ats.on .fii-st left
1i you, that certainly happc-n~d?
13 ,A Apprehensive?

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\' ' .' 1~ ~ _. W~ll, .you wexe unhappy almost in1nedi4tely:aftet
is- he left your_ pres~nce there if:l Bl Monte, you b-ecante suspicio1,1 J
.16- . of ~itn, Mr .._l1atson?
17 A Yes,. evidently, beccuse ':i:. reacted to that~
18 -.
.,., So when you came back, _when you came ba<:;k 1 youi:
I? . main problem was to try and get that $2400 back1_ is that
.... io i-ight~
' it A lf l .cout~~ yes, y~s,
22 Q, If' you could. Is $2400 that meaningless to yqu,

Yes .
t1el1,. you. st~yed the.re with Rosina and Jim and
~. -, ~l -trying
. .
to
'
fig\;ll:Q o~t some way of getting your $2:400 l,ack, . - ~

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 21,. 794__ -

l ' i-s tha t -rig ht? .

i to. :get -the weed,
2 ' A Tt'y i~g to fig ure .some ~ay ',---=-.\ 1, '

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A. . wcea, ox the- money- t1te ma riju ana -oi the

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- ~- 1 Right, you wanted either-on~~- rig ht?

8 A Yes. .' . f

elf
9 Q And so the re wa$ convorsation betwF!en YOut-$
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- n : A Uo -wi ll si'l,y be,:.ween ~he f-pu,: 0 us.
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', Between the o~r of yoct.

And t;h at was said . by eac h 0 you?

13 , .
sib ly
-,t4 ,a. I y;i ll try t_o e~ lni n it as iW;ch as I pos
,; ' i~ rememb.e:i: it.
. -

_a def ini te tho ugh t on Ros ina _s pa.i:t,

16 . '
lt was
do. such a.th ing ,
17 tha t she could not bet iev e tlta t he would .

ich ~as qui te con vin c-

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and she was ter :rib ly hur t abo ut iti 11h

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19 : . ing to me; f:azo:n my ozp '3ri

enc e wit ~ pC;?ople, and I acc ept ed
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-.imd tha t is all .I can $li.ght ly re.member, a.nd
21 '

and -see if :t cci,,

~2 , .she -said 11 ';t ,can oal ~ out ' to the ' rnnoh
ycu 'know~ sha ke ltlm up 9r sometl1ing ..
11
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24 She gqt on the ,phone.end nhe ~p lai ned to the

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,e I o~l y ltP:ew .the nmn.e

.is, par ty on the bth er phone .,._ -at t{ta& t,n
~6 Cha rlie !') and she sai d J: 1ias goi1:1;~ to-
4es tro y eve ryb ody -out .
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 21195

llp ... 5 I 1 to the ranch, l was going to kill the people out there o~

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some.thing
Anyway the only one l knew was Charli~ .Watson,
.and she gttve me the phone., and when she gave me the p.hone -- :
5 Q, Riiht now, would yot,t tell. me -what yoa heard her

Ja
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'[ You heard her say t.ho.t you were going to: kill
.8 everyon~ (?ortnccte.d wif:h Tex less you got th~ money back;
right1
10, A That is what she sa,id, yes.
ll That was in your presance that that convel;':Sation
. 12 took placo; right'l
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13 ,'
Uisht.
l'.i Y~u rre:v.~r had. seen Mr-. Manson in your life .at
is. .~.hn.t p~:i;.nt,. io that right?
16- ' l'hats risht.
17' And us a matter Qr act ~he uaed some pretty
:t;"ough ltti:iguage, is that cort~ct?
19 lJhnt d~ you mean, in w11at. respect?
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.Q.W:I:l, .she:, I ii~ te to use the ttp e or lan gua ge,

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rds . she utte cre dti
wo uld lr,ou te ll !ls tl1~ exa ct wo ~
b-ut ~ 'I.~ LL' I - '

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$,,,. 0 ;oo ~C>'U. know

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A. We lls as I remero.be~ .t~ .; she say

3
don~-? He l'-ippe.d oft .$2, 4.oo trqm
the ae peo ple ~. and
wh at Tex . ; ( . .
1n~ !lik e tha t'., ' . 1 ',J
t_hese peo ple :mean bu~ne!s.s; someth
111
-5 '
,t And the y are t:;oing' to 'ties~l"oy ~~yon~ na:vi~g
any
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-did n t tel l the _peoP;le

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" dea lin gs w~:th Ch arli e Tex. ., n i f the y

e, and
t _13 . wh.er~ h:ts whereabou~s w.e:,;,.e .:1 wbe-zae he was at tha t tim
. he. ~an_teq. tJie. money Ot'-. the Weed.
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~d Qne. wo:rd le.d to ano-ther ~ X ca

n't rentembe;r.*

,I a1n. j-u st tel li~ g; you- the bas

i-.as bt the .conver~
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12 ,.
sat~on on the tel eph one .
reoe;L ver and
And at t;he:t tj;n ie nhe banded me the
-io-

13'
... R-ight now l am tal kin g abo ut rig ht now), abo ut
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wh at wo:ttd you lle ard he~ say J .

15
Did aha use swear wo~ds?
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A, .J?ro,.f'anitf1
q Y.es, .
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A, Not tha t I ~entetnber_, no.
19'
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"~ ber , I don 't
21
A Not to my knowJ:e~~e, l can:, t rem em
i th ink S.P
.~
Q You do n't thi nk she .useti ..profanity-
?
.23'

2~ '

- 26
-Shi';! J.ust aaid --
l don 1-t thi nk she me ntio ned ~l'lY pro.t'an
:!.ty at .alJ. ,t.

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,: .fou,r.... lette;a:, word.,1, and st11rt . like th~t, no; I didnt hear

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that.

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All r}~ht,. ~i9- :vpu hear :b,er use the word nkill,"
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ac.tuall1, t,he wor.ft :;"kill,," c:om.'3 out of' her mou.th 1

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10
Y.e~, I h9ardher say that.
1): '
th~n at that t1ll'le was Jim pre~ent in the roam?
.No;, he had le-ft a.s :;;oon as we entere.a.' the apa:rt-
.
. men.t ,,... and a:f'tex- that about f:t ve ox- ten ltlin.utes or 110.. he
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had 1.-e.f't ~nd. he had something else- to do.
l '
Q,. . Wb~t about De-J,..?

16
A H~ stayed.

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Q, And to your knowled.n;e now ,.,.as J1Jtl. going to- use ':"-
18; . . what t:ro.uspQvtation was Jitn. goil'J.3 1;:o use to. gt, wher~ve~ he
19 -

i20
. 1\. . Well,. I :re~llY don't know unlese he had one of the
'~,.;.

21:
peopl-e n: :that .,I""' on th-e pr~nds.es take hfm, because we a:11.
,i
Itnet'T q_uit~ a few people on ..the p2-em1-seJJ that lived in the
1:;am~ like -- well .t it ts kind 9 diff'i-eu:lt, they are like:
'f-
'24
bun_tal'OMa,. slightly, too~ like little prllv~te bungalow .sort
ot thing....

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'26 ,
Me knew a tew people there,"mayoe he u~ed that 3our,1,

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 21,798

or 1).e had his owrt c.a:r thea:"e 2 I can "t remember.

z Q, . And you hac;l had _othe:r narcot;lc transact:l;ons in
3 . tha"ti sam~ ~rea, in tba-t same apartm~nt house, ;is that right-_, ..
,,4 11r~ Crow~?
_P:-:, ~ .
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s l r~.fuse
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to ans~1er bn the grounds I may il1r;!.m1n~te
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,1} .. uo statement, no <io~~n.t.. : . ~

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You are saying that) ...j- -z,b\t,; ~;c sa:,1iig thtt: y,6ur
10 answer- ma:, t~nd to incJ;>~minat'e y9u., .is 1,;}?,~t-~w~at; 1:ou are
' I i ~. 0
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1t saying?
i2 MR. BUGLIOSit It's :i~re-levant, your Ronor.

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THE COURT:
Q . Bl MR. KAMARtK:
Suat~ined.
Thtn.after Ro"$.1na spok~ with
who.ever she spoke wj,th on . the te1oph<:>ne.,. yqu ap.oke .witli the
}!,. perso11., ;s that right'?
17 A. l!es, yea.
18 Q And the pe~$on that you spoke w1..th at that time
19 was a p~r-son that you had nevsr -seen 1',efore in yow lite a-e:
21>- . tat'- as fQU. knew i, 1:"i~ht 1
, 21 lea, to my b~t~er knowled$e.
ls that cor~ect?
.23

. And there ,is nQ q..uestion about it that. you;t"

.a.. .
25

.26
state
-~
ot mind was that you wanted the money baok?
.I beg your pa~don1
 1 Yoti wanted your money bao-k, r-1,e;h.-t?
2

~ . ~ N9w,. . how 1-ong .-after you had tb.e telephone in

.. ~ . yo~ band, bow lonr; ai'te1:2 that ,-,as. it tb~t.- the per$on you
.

~
. -$ say
. 1~ Hr. !-!anson came :j.nto the apl;l.rt1:1ent?:
. ..
..,__
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Well, after :C. talked to the. csentJ.eman on the .
'

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telephone. o.t tll'at t:tme,. 1-1lttoh ia beyond my know-le9-ge who it
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' '& : wa:'s ~t- 'b.hat. p'.ar~icuiar. ~time, wpich t10.s abQUt like two -o~
t I I .,.... , . , , : II' ,r .. - ' I f ..

-~- , th~ee minutea ~.,...., tw.o minutes/ . "o:t:1ver~tion on thG: P,hpne,

'' .... ,.
19 and I 3u~~ handed the ~bone back.
. :An.cl I left ah<!
'. '
-i~ ~~rt,t.~\-~- {je~ .nty :fri~n~,. S~eve-.
' ll .
', 12 W~en we $Ot bacl; we. walked, in, an~ Jl~s~~ was
' ' ,. .... ,. .. l ' '1 ;

~3 :_. introdu_ecd to me~ o~ he iritroduqecl him::i-e.lt .to m~., one or the

. _ li ..
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15.
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oti'>.e~, and -be shook my hand and he coI!J.pliment:ed Steve's
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shil't thQ.t he was wear.ing, atl.d then we began _to talk

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11 . : Tex would do soniething 1111.:e th~t, ;Lt did nc>t sound like him
.1s. An~ no one el.se ha;d .anyttiing- to do w;th j,.t; it
. .
. - i? , was Jurat bl$ own motive,. it was- a question of motive.
'
,20 .' Q, - l{ow -long a:tter you hune up the phone_ did yQu havt!
.;1 ; tllis c~nvel"sation with ~!Ir~ Manson?
i .

A. The only tini.e I waa t:al~ing to h;tm on the phone --

~3 ,, or -when he: came ov.e,:.?c
~
..... ,,
:No,, no, I'm ta~ing now: 11 Mr. Q.rowe, I'm not talk1~~
~bout the person that y-ou ~e talking -to .on ~he t,lephone.
'26, : I am ~$ftng bow long atte~ you hung_up the telephorte did

I, '

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 .21,800

t-ir. Manson -appea-r .at th;ts a.o:dres-::.12

-~2. A. Between. 45 ndnutes- and. an n-our. -

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r.son on ~he tel eph on e con -
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.. had a '<!o.nve,::sa,tion wi th the ,pe .

2,

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; .. cerning whnt Tex had done; i~ tha t rig
J.1
ht?
Yes.
ve.
.
ltow, you say you t~~ t ta get_ $~e
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Wbero Wa$ Stsve1 .
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~. He wns at a f:tieu.d S: house.

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In tile sama:-a.p,artment. ~e ai
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~. .1.\uotlier. .p~ rt... of.. .,,Roll,Y.

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. this_ a.dch-ess
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lio~t far AWay from Fr.ank.1in., from

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t1,'y9u ih~-v~ to go.?~. . -: ., ~ '.
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9n Fr-.anklin? Hm1it' tt ,:di
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A Appipximately ~ix ~ ~ eig
1 seven, ~ ht. -- between sig ;
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t:ain and l.Us' P~luia& ~

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se:vE!n to . ton blocks.'"- Fol'i.n
.
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. ?ou. drove do~"lt f;~e:rc; is tha t
:rig ht?
I~ .
J.. Yes~
11- :.
1 . ' And yo-u go t Ste ve; i;;tgl'lt.?
' ii~
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J,. Yes..
,; - ,19
yor.o.:ttention,.t~en, to y.c>Ut
\_ '

im d di: t~c tin g I 1

.~
d such tha t when you
I

sta t~ o~mtnd, 'WU you~ sta te of ~in i

/ ~

21
. . / ..
the tel eph oii e you wel!e tal!Q.ng t~ M't'
(, .
.._. : were ta lk i~ on . _. .
. Mans:011? ,.
-~S- .
ne. Jil l :l:
A I d:t,dqt kno,;-: his name at' the -t:b ~
M
. kn.aw it'. was. Ch arl ie

. ''26, ::
I remember.her rel~tin_g to Charlie~ Th
at ia

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 .; l - l ~ ' ~. ' f : l
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all 1 bear:d~

- 3
Q. hnd that is t:he same person that Rosina had
j.ust ma:4e the stat~ni.on.t t.o a.bout l~~lling everybod y a~ the
4 ' spuhn Ranch; rigl?,t?
A
'
'

i
fl Than your state -of .mind 1-i~s sqch that you we:pe
'.1 going to leave that erea onF+anklin and go ~ix or eight
'8 blocks o.way and ~cme bc;:l~ with Stcv~; ,:ight?
. ' '

9, ' You lutppcne.d to. lmo-.:, where Steve was; right?

io A Oh, sure ..
il .", Right?
lZ A Y~s.._

13, Q. And ths :reason tha,t. you had for gcting to get
14 St:eve was bccausa yQu watltcd someone that was sor-t af ~
'15 friend of yours at this locatio n; right?
. 16 .f... :C already ha..d a friend the,:e.. I had two there._

i7' Well, who 1:1ere ..the two that you had?

ls Del end Jim.. '1:un left., there w.as Del.
li..fte~

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0
}9'. ,, ri 'nut Del was -in another area.; right; another
20. ,
part of th~ .....
. 21
A . Well:, we 11e-re in the same room.. In the Sallle

~oom ~hat I was...

. 22
: . Tb.en you went' do1m to. iet Steve because you
~-' ,' .. T

24 , "<vantecf. _moxe sort; of frieI)..dS ?ound so fal" as you were

! . , ._ 25_ . concerned'?
A. No.
26
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 21

The~e was ~ rea son . I Jus t wen t t_o get

him .

3 ..

4. .
,,

ans-w-~r.
Why -did YQU ~o to t;et Ste v~?
!f it is okay wit h the Cou~t, It d rat her not
1

MR,. IU11?ArIt: Th is goes to the sta te 0 mind. We .are

.s . '

sec utio n conce1;ning

' ' '

n
dea ling wit h ru:x i!lleg-0.tio . by tho pro
.
know what thi s
'

an alte tCf itio n., and tve hav e a rit;h t: to

. ' ,..
. .I!!} : . .. td.tnl!ss1 s sta te of mind wns. ru:a, en~ id~ .i to know ~
I .
ve ...
why he wont to get thi s a;e nt~ ' ~a.ll~d Ste
' --i ' .. 3

S :COUR't: n.ead the last ~ufsti:On. .

10- i ~ 1 _,
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-~ li, (Whereupon th~ q~e$tion'Wa~reaa by t~f .
...
tep ort a:r. )
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i : :_ ~
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COURT: l'.nS W(tt the qu.astion. ~ ' '
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.i. answeri the .
!" .. ,.. MR .MORGAU: Your l;Ionort. bef ore he .. , ..
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1 question;. may l talk . to my clie nt? .

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'nm COURT: Yesi-

(Mr . M,rg.-m and th~ ~-Li.tness con fer .)

l:7 .
l~
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' :MR. -MOR G.Al4': Tha ik you, you r Ho~ or.

19. THE COtreX: l)o _you have the : qu~st~on in mind, Mr.
.._ 'Cl:'oW~?'
-~ '20'
1BE UlTNESS: Yes,_
21

I went to get him beo rtua c he wa~ a *i-e

nd o_f

23 mine in tow n, and I z:es pec t his jud,ement ve'f:y wl l.

He crune
. -1~ rtt'e Vf.:t;Y pei:sonaJ. f:rien.-cf&
I 1nean;

-
tha t l -was abs~nt
~

.25 front B:t'oql~lyn to see me. And at the tim e

f:totuhim, tw as WQnde:ring.how he was.

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1-------:---- --- -- -- --. --- -C iel oD - an --- --- -
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 12"".4' 'J. '

ini on abo ut. ~t . I e~ pla ine d t0, him lih at hap pen ed.
~. hi s op
3 , , He said-:._ W ell , fot ge .t ab ou t
. . I std .d:
it. It is nothing.,_
t 4 like. tQ in ve sti ga te and see i~
4-
Ju st quest:lon .
$- '. the y we re toge.the:r, yo n know..
Be sa id: . Okay, bu t I would ju
st Ie~ve it. alo ne
. 6 '.
1. : , ~nd no t go wi th it.
at. !l!bat i-s the
s We came ba ck , an d ,(Zhirl; was: th
nl'
12a fls . .9 rO"asott th nt I went to ge t h:(J ~
.l,

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12a-1 1' . ).m, lttU-lAREK: Q You went to see. him to talk

2. , to him about what you .should dot right:?
.a A No'. :ic.tually,. he was. f1:01n .out of town
-~ ~isiting me, ~nd I. was gone be~een een and ten-thirty,
' '

and n.o't-1 .it must be l.:30 or Z:00 0 1 clocl" in the morn:Lng,

' '

,. 6
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som.ewhe;r.e ~ound in that .area.
' "' 7- -SP, tbat is quite a wl'lil:e to leave him a.t
-'(Ii,
:&
8 some fti~ndte, ~nQther . ftiend"s re$idence>
.
w~thout rny
' ~

9 presence~ -a.-J,.though lte was a friend, of mine and he was

io welco~e * But t was i:vorricc;l about him,, as one f,:.iend to
ll anothor~ :y-0u knov1; and that Wa$ one of the biggest motiv~s
"

th~t t went to.get 1~,

'{2;

l;l' Q YQUt st:ate of mind, then,_ was that when you

. -' '

1, '

.left 1iherc. Rosina. wa.-s l;l.ving,

'

you ieft with th~ ,intent

I '

15 to go- and get Steve a)..d come back. 'With ..Steve; ;t:s that
16 - right'l -.
17 A Yes. Sure-..
18 ~ . ~ou W(?tC? o.oi~g to bring Stave~ l?ac~ to .RQsina s..;
' . . ~~

1? ,:cight7 ',, f "

.,.''

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2-0

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A Yes.
'

Well, he was wi~h .met nnd ~I J\1.st br_ough-,: h:4u

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i ~ ! ~~'

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22 with :ma. I didn't think nothing like -th:f.s would .happett,. i

2~ or 1o1hat. bad occurred. 1,\t the tj.m~. '.I: had .no. ;dea ti.ha~ _sucti
.f .....- ',\

I ' '
' ,ti .a

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it1- u tning would hav~ taken placo.
---,.-, -~~. If I did have an idea. ouch . thing wo.;ild ,t;ake 1
:

'

~9 place, t .wouid havo b,cen prep.ired, which I W<l.snt.. ! didpt .

 21 806

I . have no :arms or anything.

It was Just a ma.tteJ: of getting my friend
3 . instead of Just :Leaving him in fl stra11ge house t;o an
~xtent, -without l~owirig the people., you know:, that well.
5, But you:i."' real reason for going to r;~t him,
6 or your. main reason., was bacause you 'tvanted him to come
7 h~ck wi~h you in.order t9 gQ futth~r about getting back
8 this $2400?
:,
!f '., A I cl.i-dn t say that. Yo'i.i did.
. lQ I an O.$king you if that was in your mind

11 A No.
'rh~n ~hat t-1as your pqrpose in bringing Steve

-- l4:

15
back?
A 1 exp1a:i.ned to you.,i, Sit'.
You mean you brought Steva back and it had
nothing . ~o do with getting thEi. .$.2400 back?
l'L A. No,. definitely not.. l woulc!n' t ,..._ no~ definite!
l.8'. 'hot;.
Q You brought Stev:e back to Rosina' .s for l\ soci.al
, 19
' .
v.is:t.t? 'You had forgotten about,> the $z.4oq, ianp. you d:t:ctnt
"
21: care 4n.yt:hi:ng mo:i::e:. ~bo1Jt :tt ;, t i_$ht 1- ; ,
; ' ~, "~ - >, ' 1 \ I '

A I c;litJnJt 1:eally actu;ally f.orge.t it. l did

. . . .t, . ; . '.' : . : ~
.. " ca.re some :more.:-about it,~ you know.. r. w~s th:i.nld'..nrf <;, tha.t, , ,~
1

24 and also thi~ing of my friend, which _meant more to ,me

. than the 2400.
26' Q... You had ~ conversation <td.th Ro~.in~ before,yov.
, I
 '"21.807 ...

went to get Steve; Tight?

Yes, With everyone in the apc:,.ztment, yes.
s ~ An4 Rosma and you 41.scussed what Rosina
4 hac1 :$aid toncc.rning wipi~g out everybody at th~ r~ru.:h;
s ' . right?
..
_.., 6 Thu~ was po.rt of the. conve,:sationj ye_s.
7 .
("\
; _And you approvgd of this?
. ..,,._,
,J,
... 8 I di-dnt appl:'0\1S of a.nythi"og I didnt sai
9. an~hJ.ng.
10 Sh~ knpw the people, and I didn I t k1;iow th~.
11: So-,, she figured she 'would use the kind of -approach -$he
12. , thou,ght would eet the money back o-r sol:ve the ~itUation

ts
I4

. 1s
that .oc9u1:red at;: that pa:rt$cu4tr time . .
I .didnt; make. no comment one way ~r the other~
All I said was I -wap.ted the money or the weed; and that is
I ,', ,
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l6 all, and I gave hor the r~ceiver,. and .she did the ,;est of
17 . it:
'
1w So, I guess she knew wp.at she was doin~h and,
.J9- whatever.
20 I mean, it didn t. ,:naf;ter. It wean t in my
'
~1 m;nd to do anything to .anybody"! I ne"<lcr. men~;i.one.d it"
~- r <\ ' ...

' 12b ls;. 22 / } 1" /1

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 21,80-8

l2b-l 1 ~- :e ardon?
l never mentioned the fact wha~ :+ was. gQ+g to do

~
,, A.

~'. to,. any'Qo'dy, _oz, any s~gn. of angt-1neas, or

' '
nothi~s. Just
4.. di$pleaoed~ y~u .know, le~ down to an extent.
5 Qi Direating ,your attenti.on t9 w.h:at wa-s goi~g on. in
6 1our mind. 1n your mind, fOU had. heard -what Roana had sa+d
:i over th~ telephone;. ti1at. is corr~ct, r+ght; na quea-tion about
,.,,
. ',8 ' that?
'9' ' .. ~ o~,. ye.s. n1~nt.
10 Q. .An<1 rega:rclJ.ess Of \,;hat you. told Rosina., you wan~e4 ' t , '

il
:
to have somebody with you.tQ accomp1:i...sh the return of the
' . . ',.,., i ' ' '
mQne;r .qr the .we-ed2' '. :
12
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No ' 3. '.
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_..,.,;

t4' Stieve aetuall;r su~geated very ,,.s.tt-o~&lY .in .fac,t,

~ ',, . " )- ~. .. ' 1 . \ :; ' , ~ ."', ~
15 he -insi$t~.d thijt J: shoultin 't' tt;,O baok., ;,and should f.oJ:'lget
' ' ,I ~ - r

1.6,
"
ab-pu;t .it,- l'lhatever, after I ~xpl(lined
.
to ~m i-tha1;t ,had taken
J-
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ti place and what was said in the cou~se of the whole t~ip.
1~- !r!d ht said;-. "Jh:b1e it or.t., r..an. 1 Lik~ ~ ,you lmow., 11 F-O;'get
11,9 about it .. l wouldn t t bo.tl1~r a.bout it~"
,o: :t J USt too!t his ~dvic~. .But I wa.ntea. to stie~ my
<-it. ; _nec.k;. ou:t; to :find out :it the th:ree paople w~rl; t9get:he:t', .
',~. '
' . '
~~ . according tq the G,onvel'.3at!f.ona. But I -hacl _sl~gh.tly more
~ . faith in Rosina tnan I d:Ld c.nyone 6-l.se that was involved in
24 . that pa:rt.icular incident --- on the opposite side, I should.

- ,
2s .

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~6-
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say.
Q, Well, then, Stevo_save you the adv:Lce. ire
,q. ,
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CieloDriw.com
 .a1,-ao9

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sus;~ested that yQu. not go back to Rosina's.; right?
.A. Yes.- Forget abou~ it, in othejt words.
~h:t.s is h1s woro.s-: .. Forset abou.b ;Lt. Shine. it 0:n~
4. . '
in other wo~d$ '

s r ~ aut you disd.n t-t follow the advi-oe or St~ve.., and ytlu.;
.
' t. ~

6' 'on YOU.l" -own, dec::J,.de.d that yo.u w_ezre . So!Lns

. to 'gq b:;t.ek; right?'
7 P,..

s.. : It was t.e invqlved., so i nad to.make :tile d'eciaion,.
And 70.u deoided,to ga baekt
' '
' ' I. '
- ;, l
10. Ye~.
Il Q ~d you Tt:.ent bacI<: knowin,:; th...at you ha.Q. J u::irt .
. . . '

12 :spoltoll to $0.t1eone on the telephone con.cern1r,.g th1$ nia~ter?

u :A. 'Uh-huh.
:e 1~ Q, ?~ght?
15 A feG.,
.J.(i Q, .J.i.ncl tour state of mind was such that ,~u knew or
J7 tJ:toug~t that thera mi:z;ht be .someb_ody coininG to th~t

is :~partmenu house,; is that rit::h.t?

Not. at that time.. Not at that time~ really,
.:=,,...
-29 I lllean t :t ;j'ust didn 't -- no, l didn I t look tor any
2i trouble after that. As far as I was c:onoer~ed, that was. the
-~ -end o~ it there at that mo~ent.
2s Q At what poJ.nt was it the ~nd ot it.~ Iw. Crowe?

34f A The money was gone. .r 1'laan' t go1ns to k:i.ll ~ybo~y,. -

.2s
26
I didn't 'think anybody ttas coing to k;l.11 me ox- try to ki1;
me/) or what-ever) you lcno:w.
-4',.
,
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'-~ JnW.com .
 ~ Then, would you tell us; why did y-0u go back to
' l
just f'c;,:rgc;:,1i.
Ros ina' s .it th:ts meant noth ing to you and if' you
$

-- ,g.

4
:' a.b.aUt :.tt and. you sa.14 g_Qodbye t-o the '$2400?
.. baek ? .
Why did you go

!Do an exte nt, I went back to rurt h~r .inv esti gate
..
,5 A.
.. on the .
~-,,'f; -~
Even. atte:.tl r went to eet Stev e, as we we~e talk ing
~ way back , th1$ ia ao~ething that I wanted to do.
1

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11

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1.3

14

,15

16

17

JS
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.,, 19

,.t: 20

21

22 ,

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125,

26
 ize-1 ' ,;
All right.
i ' Then_ y-ou -went back 1tith Stev~; right?

3-
Yes ..
4 1ou rtnd Steve toge.ther ttont into Rosina:' s?

.. '
5 '',,

-i .
t .
You knocked ~n the door.
. '

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Was R.osinn i s dcor locked at that t.~~?
t'e' ,
. ~. I don t 'r.etU~mbeti.
Yes. Someone come to tba 4,oor. Yes,,
P~don?
It A Yes. S.QlneQne cmne to'the door,. I think it

..
1
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12

ia-

14
Wall Del ..

Del was still the~e wt.th Rosina?

Yes,
Nolit, you left Del wtthout any transportat'ion;
16 right?
l1, : A . Me?
0,. l-1hen you left De! at Rosina s 1 you left. him
19 without any transpo~tationf
. I had the car ..
Right.
Yott went out to get Steve-; right?
A With the all, ye:s,. ,
l t'
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Q. And Del was ll:!ft behind?

J.
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2S: ' Ye:s. tn -the ap:artm.entt-'. , -,
. :;.. .,, ,: l .
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26 kid you went Qttt- ~here .,._ let ~ withd1t~w th_~t ...
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. -; .. ~ _,:" - ' ~. ' .k..\ ' ' ' 'O\o- j
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 21,812

12c-2 1
So, at the time that you left, you knew that

2
you were going to come back and get Del; right?

3
A Yes.

4
Q And so you went to get Steve so that you could

s have yourself and Steve and Del to put a little pressure

6
upon somebody to get your money or the weed?

7
A They weren t the type of people to put pressures

8
on nobody.

9
They wasn't the ones -- well --

10
THE COURT: Mr. Kanarek, as I indicated to counsel
11
this morning, we will have to adjourn at this time today

12 r,:eher than the mual time.

13 Ladies and gentlemen, do not converse with

14 anyone or fot~ or express any opinion regarding the penalty

1S until that issue is finally sulnitted to you.

16
The court will adjourn until 9:00 oclock

17 tomorrow mo~ning.

18
(llhereupon at 3:45 oclock p.m. the court

19
was in adjournment .. )

20

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