InterviewwithJacquesLacan

PublishedinLExpressinMay1957.

Interviewer: A psychoanalyst is very intimidating. One has the feeling that hecouldmanipulate you ashe
wishes,thatheknowsmorethanyouaboutthemotivesofyouractions.

Dr. Lacan: Dontexaggerate. Doyouthink thatthiseffectis exclusivetothepsychoanalyst?Aneconomist,

for many, isasmysterious asananalyst. Inourtime,itistheexpertwhointimidates.Withpsychology,even
when seen asa science,everyone thoughtthey hadtheinsiderstrack. Now,withpsychoanalysis,wehave
the feeling of having lostthatprivilegethattheanalystcouldbecapableofseeingsomethingquitesecretin
what appears to you to be quite clear. There you lie naked, uncovered, under a wellinformed eye, and
withoutknowingwhatyouareshowinghim.

THEOTHERSUBJECT

Interviewer:Thisisasortofterrorism.Onefeelsviolentlytornoutfromoneself.

Dr. Lacan: Psychoanalysis, intheorder ofman,has,in fact,allthesubversiveandscandalousfeaturesthat

theCopernican decenteringhad inthecosmicorder:theearth,thatplaceinhabitedbyman, isnolonger the
center ofthe universe!Well!Psychoanalysis announcesthat you arenolongerthecenterofyourself,since
thereis another subject within you, the Unconscious. It was, at first, notwellacceptednews.Thesocalled
irrationalism whichhasbeenusedtodefineFreud!Whenitisexactly the contrary:notonlydidherationalize
all thathad resistedrationalizationuntilhecamealong,butheevenshowedthatinactionthereisaprocess
ofreasoninggoingonI mean, something that isreasoningandfunctioninglogically,withouttheknowledge
of the subject. All of this, viewed classically, as being in the field of the irrational lets call it the field of
passion.

This isprecisely whathe was not forgiven for. His introduction of the notionof sexual forces thattakeover
the subject without warning, nor logic, was still admitted but that sexuality is a place of speech, that
neurosis is anillness thatspeaks, hereissomethingstrange,andevenhisdisciplespreferthatwe speakof
somethingelse.

Ananalyst must not beseenasasoulengineerhes not aphysician,hedoesnotproceedbyestablishing

causeeffectrelationshisscienceisareading,itsareadingofsense.

This iswhy,undoubtedly, without knowing exactly whatis hidden behind his offices door, he iscommonly
consideredasasorcerer,anevengreateronethantheothers.

Interviewer:Andwhohasdiscoveredtheseterriblesecrets?

Dr. Lacan: It is better to specify the nature of these secrets. They are not the secrets of nature, those
discoveredby biologicalandphysicalsciences.Ifpsychoanalysisclarifiessomefactsofsexuality,itisnotby
aimingatthemintheirownreality,notinbiologicalexperience.

ARTICULATEDANDDECIPHERABLE

Interviewer: But, Freud, he did discover, in the same way one discovers an unknown continent, a new
dimensionofpsychiclife,thatiscalledunconsciousorsomethingelse?FreudisChristopherColumbus!

Dr. Lacan: Theknowledgethat there isapart of the psychic functions that are out ofconsciousreach,we
didnotneedtowaitforFreudtoknowthis!

If you wantacomparison,Freudis insteadChampollion!The Freudian experience is not atthe levelofthe

organizationofinstinctsand vital forces. TheFreudian experiencediscoversthem onlybyexertingitself,ifI
may sayso, on asecondaryforce.It isnottheinstinctualeffectsintheir primaryforcethatFreuddeals with.
That which is analyzable is so, because it is already articulated in what makes up the singularity of the
subjects history. Thesubject can recognize himself init,insofaras psychoanalysisallowsthetransference
ofthisarticulation.

In other words, when the subject represses, this does not mean that the subject refuses to gain
consciousness of something like aninstinct,like,forexample,asexualinstinctthatwouldmanifestitselfina
homosexual form no, the subject doesnotrefusehishomosexuality,herepressesthespeechwherethis
homosexuality has the roleofasignifier. You see,it isnota vague, dubiousthingwhich is represseditis
not a sortofneed, ortendency, thatcouldhavebeenarticulated(andthencantbearticulatedbecauseitis
repressed)itisadiscoursethatisalreadyarticulated,alreadyformulatedinalanguage.Itsallthere.

Interviewer: You say that the subject represses adiscourse articulated in alanguage.Yet, wedo not feel
ourselvestobethere whenwerefacetofacewithapersonwithpsychologicaldifficulties,atimidperson,for
example, or an obsessional. Their conduct seems absurd,incoherent andif weguessthat itmightmean
something, thiswouldbe imprecise, afalteringtone,sensedatalevel lowerthantheleveloflanguage.And
oneself, when one feels ridden by obscure forces thatwe call neurotic,theseforces manifest themselves
preciselybyirrationalactions,accompaniedbyconfusionandangst!

Dr. Lacan: Symptoms, those youbelieveyourecognize,seemtoyouirrationalbecauseyoutaketheminan

isolatedmanner, and you want to interpret them directly.For example, taketheEgyptian hieroglyphics.As
long as welookforthedirectmeaningof vultures,chickens,thestanding,sitting,ormovingmen, thewriting
remains indecipherable. When taken by itself, the sign vulture means nothing itonly findsitssignifying
value when taken within the context of the set of the system to which it belongs. Well, analysis deals with
thisorderofphenomena.Theybelongtotheorderoflanguage(langagierinFrench).

Apsychoanalyst is not anexplorerofanunknowncontinent,orofgreatdepthsheisalinguist.Helearns to

decipher the writing which is under his eyes, present to the sight of all however, that writing remains
indecipherableifwelackitslaws,itskey.

REPRESSIONOFTRUTH

Interviewer: You say that this writing is present tothe sight of all. Yet, ifFreudhassaidsomethingnew,it
was that in psychic life we are ill because we conceal, we hide a part of oneself, we repress. But the
hieroglyphics themselves were not repressed, they were written onstone. So your comparison cannotbe
complete?

Dr. Lacan: Onthecontrary, itmust be taken literally. Whatis tobe decipheredinpsychicanalysisis all the
time there, present since the beginning. You speak about repression, forgetting something. As Freud
formulated it, repression is inseparable from thephenomenonofthe return oftherepressed.Something
continuesto function,somethingcontinues to speakintheplacewhereitwasrepressed. Thankstothiswe
canlocatetheplaceofrepressionandoftheillness,sayingitisthere.

This notion is difficult to understand because when we speak of repression we imagine immediately a
pressure, a vesicularpressure,forexample.Thatis,avaguemass,undefined,exertingallitsweightagainst
a door that we refuse to open. Now, in psychoanalysis, repression isnottherepression of a thing, itis a
repressionof atruth. Whathappensthen, when we wantto repressatruth?Thewholehistoryoftyrannyis
thereto give theanswer:Itis expressed elsewhere,inanother register, inaciphered,clandestinelanguage.
Well,thisisexactlywhatisproducedwithconsciousness.

Truth,therepressed,willpersist,thoughtransposedtoanotherlanguage,theneuroticlanguage.

Except that we are no longer capable of saying at thatmomentwhois the subject speaking but,that it
speaks, that it continues to speak. It happens that it is entirely decipherable in the manner that we are
decipherable,whichmeans,notwithoutdifficulty,itsalostwriting.

Truth has not been annihilated,it has not fallen into anabyss.Itisstillthere,given,present,butturnedinto
unconscious.The subject who has repressed truth is not themaster anymore, he isnotatthecenter ofhis
discourse things continue to function alone and discourse continues to articulate itself, but outside the
subject.Andthisplace,thisoutsidethesubject,isexactlywhatwecalltheunconscious.
You can clearlyseethat whatwe have lostis not the truthit isthekey tothe newlanguage in whichit is
expressedfromthenon.

THEHAMMOCK

Interviewer:Isntthisyourowninterpretation?ItseemsthatitisnotFreuds?

Dr. Lacan: Read The InterpretationofDreams, read ThePsychopathologyofEverydayLife,readJokes

andtheirrelationto the Unconscious.It is enoughtoopenthese works, whateverthepage, tofindclearly
whatImspeakingabout.

The term censorship, for example. Why did Freud choose it straightaway, even at the level of the
interpretation of dreams, to designate this restraininginsistence, the repressing force? Censorship, as we
know,is this anasthasia, this constraintthat works using a pair of scissors.Andon what?Notonwhatever
passesbyintheair,butratheronwhatis susceptible ofbeingprinted, inadiscourse,adiscourseexpressed
inalanguage.

Yes, the linguistic method is present in every page of Freuds work all the time he gives references,
analogies, linguistic parallels. And then, in the end,inpsychoanalysis, you onlyask onethingofthepatient,
onlyone thing, that is, tospeak. If psychoanalysis exists, andif ithasitseffects,itisonlywithinthedomain
ofconfessionandofspeech.

Yet, for Freud,as forme,humanlanguagedoesnotspringupforhumanbeingslike afountain.Lookatthe

waythat,ordinarily,howachild gainsexperienceisrepresentedforus: hestickshisfingeronaburningpan,
he burnshimself.Starting from thatmomentthatheencountershotandcold,danger,itismaintainedthatall
thatremainsforhimtodoistodeduce,toreconstructallofcivilization.

That is absurd.Starting withthefactthatheburnshimself,heisplacedfacetofacewithsomethingwhichis

muchmore important thanthediscoveryofhotand cold.Infact, heburns himself andthenthereis always
someone who gives him awholespeechabout it. Indeed,thechild willhavea muchharder timeentering
intothislinguisticdiscoursethatwehavesubmergedhiminto,thantolearntoavoidthehotpan.

In other words, the man who is born into existence deals first with language this is a given. Heis even
caught in itbefore his birth. Doesnt he haveacivilstatus? Yes, thechildwhoistobebornisalready, from
headtotoe,caughtinthislanguagehammockthatreceiveshimandatthesametimeimprisonshim.

CLEARLY,INEACHCASE

Interviewer: What renders theacceptance of relatingneuroticsymptoms toa perfectlyarticulatedlanguage

difficult isthefactthat wedontseetowhomtheyareaddressed. Theyarenotmadeforanyone,since theill
person, in particular, the ill person, himself, does not understand them, and a specialist is needed to
decipherthem! Maybe, the hieroglyphicshave become incomprehensible,but, at the time theywereused,
theyweremadetocommunicatecertainthingstocertainpeople.Sowhatisthisneuroticlanguage?

Itisnotonlyadeadlanguage,itsnotonlyaprivatelanguage,sinceitisincomprehensibletooneself?
And then, a language is something that we use. This one, on the contrary is infringed upon. Take the
obsessional.Hewouldcertainlyliketogetridofhisfixedidea,getoutofthetrap.

Dr. Lacan: These are precisely theparadoxesthataretheobject ofdiscovery.Andyet,if languagewerenot

addressedto an Other, itcouldnotbeunderstoodthanks toanother inpsychoanalysis.Therestisamatter
of recognizing what it is, and to do this, itis necessary to situate itin a case this requires along timeto
develop otherwiseitsajumble of incomprehension.Nevertheless, itis there, wherewhatImtalkingabout
can appear clearly:thewaytherepresseddiscourse of the unconscious istranslatedin the register of the
symptom. And you can see to what point this is precise. You mentionedtheobsessional. FollowFreuds
observation which we find in TheFive Psychoanalyses, entitled TheRatman. TheRatman was agreat
obsessional. A young man of higher education who finds Freud in Viennatotell him thathe suffers from
obsessions. They are sometimes intense worries in relation to his beloved, and sometimes thedesire to
commit impulsive acts, like cutting his throat, or he constructs for himself interdictions concerning
insignificantthings.

THERATMAN

Interviewer:Andwhataboutsexuality?

Dr. Lacan:Therewefindanerroroftheterm!Obsessionaldoesnotnecessarilymeansexualobsession,not
even obsession for this, or for that in particular to be an obsessional means to find oneself caught ina
mechanism, in a trapincreasingly demandingand endless.He has to accomplish anact,aduty a special
anxiety takes over the obsessional. Will he beable to accomplish it?Oncehe has done it, hesuffersthe
torturingneed to verify it,buthe doesnt dare because hefears he will appear as a crazyman, becauseat
the same time he knows well he did accomplish it this commits him to greater and greater cycles of
verification,precaution, justification.Taken inthisway byaninnerwhirlwind,itisimpossibleforhimtofinda
state of tranquillity, ofsatisfaction.Nevertheless,thegreatobsessionalisfarfrombeingdelirious.Hehasno
conviction whatsoever, only a kind a necessity, totally ambiguous, that renders him incredibly unhappy,
suffering, hopeless, left to anunexplainableinsistencethat comesfromwithinhimself,andthathedoesnot
understand.

The obsessional neurotic is common and can go unnoticed, if we are not attentive to thelittlesigns that
betray him. The people suffering from this illness occupy their social positions well, even if their life is
ravaged, erodedbysufferingandbythedevelopment ofthisneurosis.Iveknownpeoplewhoheldimportant
positions,and notonly honorary,but positionsofleadership,peoplewithgreatandextendedresponsibilities,
that they assumed completely, but they were notinanywaylesscaught, allday long,as the preyoftheir
obsessions.

This wasthecaseoftheRatman,distressed,trappedbythereturnofhissymptoms,thatlead himtoconsult

Freud in Vienna, where the Ratman was participating in important military exercises as anarmyreserve
official. He asked Freud for advice with regard to a veryboringstory ofa debt heowed tothemailoffice
where he had sent a pair of glasses, a story that he loses track of. If wefollow him,literally,right tohis
doubts, we find in the scenario created by his symptom, a scenario thatconcerns fourpersons,thevery
events thatled to the marriage of whichthesubjectwasthe fruit, trait bytrait,transposedintoa vastsetof
mannerisms,withoutthesubjectsuspectinganything.

Interviewer:Whatstories?
Dr.Lacan:Afraudulentdebtofhisfather,amilitaryman,grew. Thefatherlosthismilitaryrankduetohaving
committed a crime there was a loan that allowed him to pay his debt, and the unclear aspect of the
restitution of the money to the friendwho came tohisaid,andfinallyabetrayed loveduetoamarriagethat
gavehimstatus.

During his childhood, the Ratman had heard these stories, some lighthearted, others covert.. What is
striking is thefact that whatreturns from the repressed is not aparticulareventor traumaitis thedramatic
constellation thatruledoverhisbirth,hisprehistory.. Heis descendedfromalegendary past.Thisprehistory
reappears via the symptoms that represent that prehistory in an unrecognizable form, that weaveit into
myth, represented by the subject without awareness. Since it is transposed like a language or a writing,
maybe transposed into another language, with other signs it is rewritten without the modification of the
liaisonslike afigure in geometry istransformedfroma spheretoaplane,whichdoesnotnecessarilymean
thatanyfigurecantransformitselfintoanyotherfigure.

Interviewer:So,whenthisstoryisupdated,whatcomesnext?

Dr. Lacan: Listen wellI have not said thatthecureofaneurosisisaccomplishedwiththis.Youknowvery

well that in the cure of the Ratman there is something else that I cannot talk about here. Ifa prehistory
sufficed for the origin of consciousness, everyone would be a neurotic. Itis linked tothe way the subject
assumesthings,acceptsthemorrepressesthem.Andwhydocertainpeoplerepresscertainthings?

Anyway, takethetimetoreadtheRatmanusingthiskeythattraversesit, partbypartthetransposition into

another figurativelanguage,totallyunperceivedbythe subject,ofsomethingthatcanonlybeunderstoodas
adiscourse.

TOKNOWMOREANDBETTER

Interviewer: It could bethatrepressed truth isarticulated, as you say,in a discoursewith ravagingeffects.

But inthecase of someone who comesto you, it isnotbecause he searches for the truth.Heissomeone
whosuffershorribly, andwantsto berelieved from hispain.If Iremembercorrectly thestoryoftheRatman,
therewasalsoafantasyofrats.

Dr. Lacan: In otherwords, whileyouworryabouttruth,theresamanwhosuffers.Inanycase, beforeusing

an instrument,itsimportanttoknow what itis,howit ismanufactured!Psychoanalysisisaterriblyefficient
instrument, and because it is more and more a prestigious instrument, we run the risk of using it with a
purposeforwhichitwasnotmadefor,andinthiswaywemaydegradeit.

Therefore itis necessary to depart fromtheessential:whatisit,thistechnique,whatsitspurpose,whatare

itseffects,theeffectsthatithasbyitssimpleandpureapplication?

Well!Thephenomenaproper topsychoanalysis areoftheorder oflanguage. That is, thespoken recognition

of the major elements of the subjectshistory, ahistory thathasbeencut, interrupted, that has fallen onto
the underside of discourse. In relationto theeffectsthatwe defineas belongingtoanalysis, the analytical
effects,aswe say mechanical orelectrical effects the analyticaleffectsareof thenature ofthereturn
oftherepresseddiscourse.I can assure you thatattheverymomentyou haveputthesubjecton thecouch
andyouhaveexplainedtohimtheanalytical ruleasbrieflyaspossible,thesubjectisalreadyintroducedinto
thedimensionofthesearchforhistruth.

Dr. LacanAnd Icanassureyou, that atthevery momentyouhaveputthesubjectonthe couchandevenif

youhave explainedtohim theanalyticalrule asbrieflyaspossible,thesubjectisalreadyintroducedintothe
dimensionofthesearchforhistruth.

Yes, just from the fact of having to speak, as hemustin front ofanother, thesilenceofanothera silence
which is neither approving nor disapproving, but rather attentive he feels it as an expectation, and this
expectationisthatofthetruth.

Andalso,hefeelsdrivenbytheprejudicethatwehadmentionedbefore:

that of believing that this other, the expert, the analyst, knows something about him that he himself is
unawareofthepresenceofthetruthisfortified,itisthereinanimplicitstate.

The ill personsuffersbuthe realizes thatthepath totakeinordertogobeyond,toamelioratehissuffering,

isoftheorderofthetruth:toknowmoreandtoknowbetter.

Then, man is a being of language?This would bethenewrepresentationofmanthat we owe toFreud

manissomeonewhospeaks?

Dr. Lacan Is languagetheessence of man? This is questionwhichis notofdisinteresttome,andIdonot

detest that people who are interested in what I say are,infact, interested in this, but itis aninterest of a
differentorder,andasIsometimessay,itsthesideevent.

Idontaskmyself whospeaks?Itrytoposethequestionin adifferentway,in amorepreciselyformulated

way.IaskFromwheredoesitspeak?

In other words, if I have tried to elaborate something, it is not a metaphysical theory but a theory of
intersubjectivity.SinceFreud,thecenterofmanisnotwherewethoughtitwasonehastogoonfromthere.

If what counts is to speak, to find ones own truth through words and confession, would not analysis
becomeasubstituteforreligiousconfession?

Dr. LacanI am not authorized to talk to you about religious matters, but I must say that confession is a
sacrament which is not there to satisfy a certain need for confiding The response, even if consoling,
encouraging,evenifdirective,ofapriestdoesnotpretendtorenderconfessionefficient.

From thepointofviewof dogma,youarecertainlyright.However,confessionisrelated,at leastforatime

whichdoesnotcovertheentireChristianera,towhatiscalledthedirectionofconscience.

Wouldthis not be related to the field ofpsychoanalysis? That is,tomakesomeoneconfesshisactionsand

intentions,toguideaspiritwhosearchesforhistruth?
Dr. Lacan The direction of conscience has been judged in different manners by spiritual individuals
themselves.Wehaveevenseenincertaincases,thatthiscanbeasourceofavarietyofabusivepractices.

Inother terms, it is uptothemembers ofreligious orders todeterminetheplaceandsignificance theygive

toconscience.

But it seems to me thatno directorof conscience would bealarmedbyatechnique whoseobjective is to

reveal the truth. Ive seen howworthymembersofreligiouscommunitieshavetakenastandinverydelicate
affairs, where something that we call family honor was at stake. I have always seenthemdecidethatto
keeptruthhiddenhasravagingconsequences.

And, all directors of conscience will tell you that the bane of their existences are obsessionaland overly
scrupulouspersonsthey dont really knowhowto dealwiththem:themoretheytry tocalmthemdown,the
worse it gets the more they try to explain and give them reasons, the more people come to them with
absurdquestions

Yet, analytical truth isnotas mysterious,or as secret, so asto notallowustoseethatpeople withatalent

fordirectingconsciencesseetruthrisespontaneously.

Ive knownamong membersof religiousorderspeoplewhohadunderstoodthatapenitentwhocomplained

about her needs for impurity, needed to betaken to another level:did she behavejustly with her children
andhermaid?Andthroughthisbrutalreminder,theyobtainedincrediblysurprisingeffects.

In my opinion, the directors of conscience cannot find fault with psychoanalysis they can even find in it
someusefulideas.

DISTURBINGREVERSAL

Perhaps, but is psychoanalysis well perceived? In the religiousdomain it would be considered rather a
devilsscience.

Dr. LacanIthinktimeshavechanged.Undoubtedly, after Freudinventedpsychoanalysis,itwasconsidered

for a longtime as a subversiveand scandalous science.It wasnotaboutbelievinginitornot.Peoplewere
violently opposed to it with the excuse that analyzed persons would be at the mercy of all their raging
desires,woulddowhatever.

As of today, recognized as a science or not, psychoanalysis has entered our habits, and positions have
been reversed: when someone does not behave normally, when he is considered as scnadalous in his
socialcircle,wespeakofsendinghimtoapsychoanalyst!

All thisdoesnotliein the order of whatis called with the tootechnicaltermresistancetopsychoanalysis,

butrathermassobjection.
The feartolose ones originality, ofbeingreducedto acommonlevel,isalsofrequent. Onehastosaythat
with thenotion ofadaptationadoctrineofnaturehasbeenproducedtoengenderconfusion andfromthere
onanxiety.

Therehasbeenwritten thatpsychoanalysishasasitsobjectivethe adaptationof thesubject,not precisely

tohis externalenvironment,his life orhis realneedsthis means the ratification of ananalysiswouldbeto
become the perfect father, themodel husband,theideal citizen,in sum, someonewho has nothing left to
discuss.

All thisis completely false. Just asfalse as the first prejudicethatconceivespsychoanalysisasameansto

totalliberation.

Dont you think that that which people fear most, that which makes themoppose psychoanalysis even
before they consider it a science or not, is the fact that they risk losing a part of themselves, of being
modified?

Dr. Lacan This worry is totally legitimate as itappears. To saythat thereis nochange in thepersonality
after a psychoanalysis would bea joke.Itis difficulttoclaimatthesametime thatwe can obtainresults
through psychoanalysis and that we may not obtain them, that is to say, that personality can remain
unchanged.Inanycase,thenotionofpersonalityneedstobeclarified,orevenreinterpreted.

SETTLING(REINSTALLATION)OFTHESUBJECT

Basically, the difference between psychoanalysis and various psychological techniques is that
psychoanalysisisnotcontentedwithonlyguiding,orinterveningblindly,psychoanalysiscures

Dr. Lacan It cures thatwhich iscurable.Itwillnotcuredaltonismoridiocy,even ifintheenddaltonism and

idiocyhavesomethingtodowiththepsyche.

Do you know Freuds formula, there where it was,I mustbe ?The subject must beable to settle in this
place,thisplacewherehewasnolonger,replacedbythisanonymouswordthatwecalltheit.

In the Freudian perspective, isthere aninterestinaimingatcuringthelargenumberofpeoplewhoarenot

ill?Inotherwords,isthereaninterestinpsychoanalyzingeveryone?

Dr. Lacan To possessan unconsciousis not a privilegeofneurotics.Therearepeoplewho aremanifestly

not overwhelmed by an excessive weight of parasitic suffering, who are not blocked by the presence of
anothersubjectbutwhowouldnotloseanythingiftheyknewmoreabouthim.

Sincetobeanalyzedisnothingdifferentthanknowingonesownhistory.

Isthistrueinthecaseofcreators?
Dr. Lacan It is an interesting question to know if there is an interest for them to run with or to veil this
speechthat attacksthemfromtheoutside(itsthesamethingasthat which blocks the subjectinneurosis
andincreativeinspiration).

Is therean interestinrunning onthepath ofpsychoanalysis towardsthetruthof thesubjectshistory,orto

giveaway,likeGoethe,toagreatwaywhichisnothingdifferentthananenormouspsychoanalysis?

BecauseinGoethethisisevident:hisworkisentirelytherevelationoftheothersubjectsspeech.

Hepushedthethingasfarasageniuscandoit.

Would he have written something different if he had been analyzed? In myopinion, hiswork would have
beenanother,butIdontthinkitwouldhavebeenlost.

And for those menwho are not creators but who haveenormousresponsibilities,whodeal withpower,do
youthinkthatpsychoanalysisshouldbeobligatory?

Dr. Lacan In fact, we should not doubt thatif a manis the President ofthe council, it isbecause he was
analyzedatanormalage,thismeansyoung,butsometimesyouthisverylonglasting.

SIGNSOFALARM

Watchout!WhatcouldoneobjecttoMr.GuyMolletifhehadbeenanalyzed?

Ifhecouldhavetherighttoimmunizationwhenhiscontradictorsdonot?

Dr. Lacan Iwouldnt takea standon whetherMr. Guy Molletwouldmakethepolitics hemakesifhewere

analyzed!I dont wanttobe heard saying thatapsychoanalysis applied universally would bethesourceof
the resolution of all antinomies that if we analyze all human beings, therewillnotbe any morewars,no
more class conflicts formally, I saytheopposite. All thatwe could expectis thathuman dramasmightbe
lessconfusing.

Do you see the error in whatyou weresaying awhile ago: wanting to use an instrument without knowing
how it is made. Among the activities that are being developed all over the world under the name of
psychoanalysis, there is a growing tendency to cover, to fail torecognize,tomaskthefirstorder in which
Freudbroughthisspark.

The effort ofthegreat majorityofthepsychoanalyticschoolshasbeenwhatIcallanattempt atreduction: to

put in ones pocket the most disturbing aspect of Freuds theory. Year after year, we witness the
accentuationof thisdegradation, reachingattimes, likein the UnitedStates,formulationswhichareintotal
contradictionwiththeFreudianinspiration.
It is not because psychoanalysis is highly contested that analysts should make their observations more
acceptable, covering them with multiple colors, and borrowing analogies from neighboring scientific
domains.

Thisisverydiscouragingifwethinkintermsofpotentialanalysands?

Dr. LacanIf my words disturb you,so much the better. From thepointofviewof the public,my wish isto
emit a sign of alarm, so that there will be, in a scientific field, avery precise requirement concerning the
trainingofanalysts.

ATRAINEDANALYST

Isntitalreadyaverylongandserioustraining?

Dr. Lacan The psychoanalytic teaching, as it is today medical studies and then a psychoanalysis, a
training analysis with a qualified analyst is lacking something essential, withoutwhichI doubt onecould
consideroneselfawelltrainedanalyst:thestudyoflinguisticandhistoricdisciplines,historyofreligion,etc.

Freud, so as toclarifyhis thoughton training, revivestheoldterm,whichI enjoymentioning,ofuniversitas

literarum.

Medical studies are evidently insufficient to understand what psychoanalysis says, that is to say, for
example,to differentiate inadiscourse the meaning of symbols, thepresence ofmyths, orsimplytograsp
themeaningofwhatthepatientsays,justlikewegraspthemeaningofatext.

At the minimum,forthetimebeing,aseriousstudyofthetextsoftheFreudiandoctrineisrenderedpossible
by the safe haven that isgiventhemby Professor Jean Delayof the faculty ofthe ClinicofMentalIllness
andEncephalitis.

Doyouthinkthattheresariskoflosingpsychoanalysis,asinventedby Freud,inthehandsofincompetent
people?

Dr. Lacan At present, psychoanalysis is turning more and more to a confusing mythology. We can cite
certain signs: erasure of the Oedipus complex, accentuation of preoedipal mechanisms, of frustration,
substitutionof thetermanxietyby fear. But this doesnt meanthat Freudism, the first Freudian glow,isnot
developingallover.Wefindveryclearmanifestationsofitinallsortsofhumansciences.

Im thinking in particular of what my friend Claude LeviStrauss told me recentlyofthetributepaid to the

Oedipus complexby ethnographers, bywho theOedipus complex isseen asa profound mythical creation
borninourepoch.

It issomething verystrikingandsurprisingthatSigmundFreud,amanalone,managedtobringoutacertain
number of effects that had never been isolated before, introducing them into a coordinated network,
inventingatthesametimeascienceandafieldforitsapplication.
But, in relation to this great work of Freud, which traverses the century like a stroke of fire, our work is
laggingbehind. I sayitwithallmyconviction.Andwe will notmoveahead untilwehaveenoughwelltrained
people todo all that a scientific ortechnicaltaskrequires: after the strokeofgenius,anarmyofworkersto
harvesttheresults.

Notes:

Jean Franois Champollion, 17901832, French Egyptologist: deciphered the Rosetta Stone. (Random
HouseDictionary)