Undestanding GT Controls

Getting a better understanding of gas turbine control
How to get a better understanding of gas turbine control?
By Neo on 5 May, 2014 - 8:28 am

3 out of 3 members thought this post was helpful...
I'marookieingasturbineusingGEMARKVIcontrolsystem.Iseetherewerealotofthreadsrepliedby
CSA,andifoundhimveryknowledgeable.
Iwaswonderinghowcanarookielikemetohaveabetterunderstandingofgasturbinecontrol.
Inonethread,CSAadvisedtoreadControlSequencePrograms(CSPs)andControlSpecification.whatis
ControlSpecification?howcanifindit?
Thankyou.
By saadh on 5 May, 2014 - 9:40 am

Hi
GASTURBINECONTROLSARE;
1)STARTERCONTROLSYSTEM
2)STARTUPSEQUENCEANDSHUTDOWNCONTROLSYSTEM
3)COMBUSTIONCONTROLSYSTEM
4)HPSPEEDCONTROLSYSTEM
5)Lpspeedcontrolsystem
6)exhausttemperaturecontrolsystem
7)2ndstageNozzlecontrolsystem
8)Lubeoilandcoolingsystem
Bestregards
saradhi
By CSA on 5 May, 2014 - 10:48 am

Neo,
Welcometothebusiness.MarkVturbinecontrolpanelsemploywhat'sformallyknownastheCSPControl
SequenceProgram.MarkVIs(andMarkVIes)employwhat'sformallyknownas"applicationcode."Bothare
termsfortheapplicationspecificsequencing,the"logic",that'sgetsdownloadedtotheturbinecontroltomake
itparticularforaspecificapplicationandsite.
"Reading"theCSPorapplicationcodeinvolveslearninganewlanguagerelayladderdiagramlanguage.In
thecaseoftheMarkVIandtheMarkVIetheyusefunctionblockstoperformthesameoperationsthatrungs
usedtodoinrelayladderlogic,buttheystilluseasimilargraphicalrepresentationtorelayladderdiagram
logic.
TheMarkVCSPcanbeprinted,andsocantheMarkVI/VIeapplicationcodebutprintedapplicationcode
looksalmostnothinglikewhatoneseesinToolbox/ToolboxSTanditconsumesreamsofpaperandisusually
consideredawasteoftimeandnaturalresourcestoprintit.Myself,IuseMSWindowsscreenprinting
capabilitytocapturebitsofcodeIneedtomakenotesonandstudytoaMSWordorMSWordpaddocument,
andthenprintthem.
IwouldbeveryhappytoworkthroughthesinglemostimportantrungintheGEdesignheavydutygas
turbineworld:L4.Ifyouhavesomepatience,wecancovereverythingfromwhattripsyourturbine,toallof
thestartcheckpermissivesrequiredtogetL4topickup.It'sagreatwaytolearnhowGESHOULDname
signalsandhowtolookatsignalsandquicklydeterminewhenthelogicsignalisalogic"1"or"0",andevenif
it'satimeroraninversetimerorassociatedwithaphysicalinputoroutput.
TheControlSpecificationisadocumentthatisprovidedwiththeSpeedtronicturbinecontrolpanel.AControl
Specificationisspecifictoeveryturbine(orgroupofturbinesinstalledandcommissionedatthesametimeon
asite).Intheolddays,GEusedtoprovidetheControlSpecification,andthePipingSchematics(everyoneelse
intheworldcallsthemP&IDs)inVol.IIIoftheServiceManualsprovidedwiththeturbineandauxiliaries.
But,theycouldn'tleavewellenoughalone,andit'schangesseveraltimesoverthelastdecadeandahalf
(whichvolumeofthemanualtheyprovideitin).It'saverygooddocumentformostthings,butI'veseensome
glaringerrorsintheControlSpecification,suchasControlSpec.'swhichsaytheturbinehasadieselstarting
motorwhenithasanelectricstartingmotor,andviceversa.So,readitfor"intent",not"content"meaningthe
descriptionofthestartingsequence,inthiscase,shouldtalkaboutpurging,firing,warmup,andacceleration.
Thathastobedoneregardlessofthetypeofstartingmeans.
Also,manypeoplefindtheControlSpecificationyearsaftertheunitwascommissionedandthinktheControl
ConstantvalueslistedintheControlSpecificationareGOSPELandstartchangingtheasrunningvaluesto
matchtheControlSpecification,andthat'whenthereal"fun"begins.Iftheturbine'sbeenrunningfinefor
monthsorevenyears,theControlConstantvaluesintheMarkVIareprobablyjustfine,thoughsomecould
probablyusealittle"tuning."Justaswithhardware("Berg")jumpers,thepositionsyoufindtheminonacard
whichhasbeenworkingbutissuspectaremostlikelythecorrectonesnotwhatsomepieceofpapersays.
So,ifyouwanttoworkonL4inthisforum,justletmeknow.Itwon'tbethequickestthingwe'veeverydone,
butitwillbeagoodandvaluablelearningexperienceIpromise.
And,don'tneglecttheP&IDsthePipingSchematicdrawings.Thoseareaboutthesinglemostimportant
groupofdrawingatechnicianoroperatorcanhave.Everytechnician,andeveryoperator,shouldhavetheir
owncopy,withtheirownnotesandmarkings.
Finally,onethingI'mcomingtounderstandaboutnewbiesisthattheydon'thaveagoodgraspofhowfield
devicesandinstrumentswork.RTDs,inparticular,buteventhermocouplesandpressureswitchesand
temperatureswitchesandlimitswitchesandpressuretransmittersnottomentionelectrohydraulicservo
valvesandLVDTs.RTDsandT/Cs(thermocouples)havebeencoveredinsomedetailoncontrol.com.And
noneofthemareparticularlydifficulttounderstandbutwiringthemtoanycontrolsystemcanrequiresome
basicknowledgewhichmostpeopledon'thaveandseemtobelieveisn'treallyimportant.So,ifyouhaveany
questionsaboutfielddevicesandinstruments,openanewthreadandwecantalkaboutthem,ifnecessary
afteryou'veresearchedthecontrol.comarchives(pastthreads,usingthe'Search'feature)andifyouhaveany
questions.
Lookingforwardtoworkingwithyou,Neo.
By Neo on 6 May, 2014 - 12:54 am

CSA,
thanksforyourdetailedreply.
Itwouldbegreatifihaveanopportunitytoworkwithyou.
Asiamconfusedabouthowtostart,ithinkworkingonL4isagoodchoice.Andiaminterestedinofgas
turbinecontrol.
Butwhatshouldidoexactly?
Canyougivemeguidanceandtoldmewhatspecificishoulddo.
Iamwillingtospendseveralhoursadayworkingonit.
By CSA on 6 May, 2014 - 3:01 pm

Neo,
Okay!Let'sgetstarted.First,some"backroom"stuff.Inordertopostrungssothatthey'relegibleon
control.comwehavetouseHTMLtags,specifically,the'pre'and'/pre'tags(enclosedbythe<and>
characters).The'pre'HTMLtagneedstobeaddedtothereplyTextimmediatelybeforetherung,andthenthe
'/pre'HTMLtagneedstobeaddedimmediatelyaftertherungthisisnecessarytoputtheforumsoftwareinto
fixedpitchfontmode.(YoucanusuallyseetheHTMLtagsinthebodyofreplies.)
So,byputtinga'pre'(withthe<and>characterswhichwon'tshowinthisreplyproperlyonthemainpages
ofcontrol.combeforetheL4rungandthenfollowingitwiththe'/pre'(withthe<and>characters)wecan
displaytheL4rung:
L4S L94T L4T L4

-----| |-----------|/|----------|/|------------( )
|
|
L4 |
-----| |------
Also,atleastinthewebbrowserthatIuseonecangrabthelowerrightcornerofthecontrol.comTextboxand
dragittotheright(anddown)togetmorehorizontal(andvertical)spacewhenreplying.Thiswillbeuseful
whenlogicsignalnamesarelong,andwhenthereareasmanyaseighthorizontalelementsinarung.Youcan
alwaysusethe'Preview'and'Edit'buttonstoseehowyourpostappearsbeforesubmittingit.
Also,let'stalkabouthowGEissupposedtowriteandchooselogicsignalnames(pertheirownstandard
realizethateverycompanyhasitsownstandard,andwe'rejusttalkingaboutGEhere).Intheearlydaysof
digitalSpeedtronicturbinecontrolsystemsitwasdecidedtomakethesignalnamedescribewhenthelogic
wasa"1",orwhenitwas"True."Ingeneral,thishasbeenfollowedovertheyears,butit'snotalwaysfollowed
andthat'sarealshame,becauseit'sveryusefulwhenitis.
Next,weneedtobesureeveryone(you,Neo,andme)isclearaboutwhatnormallyopenandnormallyclosed
means.AnormallyopencontactassociatedwithalogicsignalwillbeOPENwhentheassociatedlogicis"0"
andwillbeCLOSEDwhentheassociatedlogicis"1".Anormallyclosedcontactassociatedwithalogicsignal
willbeCLOSEDwhentheassociatedlogicis"0"andwillbeOPENwhentheassociatedlogicis"1".
Togetalogicsignaltobealogic"1"it'snecessaryforpowertoflowthroughaseriesparallelstringtothe
"coil"ofthelogicsignal,sothatmeansthatthelogicsignalsofnormallyopencontactsmustbealogic"1"and
thelogicsignalsofnormallyclosedcontactsmustbealogic"0".Asanexample,let's"read"theL4rung
(becauseitis,infact,asentence).
"WhenL4SISalogic"1"ORwhenL4ISalogic"1",ANDwhenL94TISNOTalogic"1"ANDwhen
L4TISNOTalogic"1",thenL4willbealogic"1"."
So,whenL4Sisalogic"1"itsassociatednormallyopencontactswillbeCLOSED,andwhenL4isalogic"1"
itsassociatednormallyopencontactswillbeCLOSED,andwhenL94TisNOTalogic"1"(thatis,whenitIS
alogic"0")itsassociatednormallyclosedcontactswillbeCLOSED,andwhenL4TISNOTalogic"1"(that
is,whenitISalogic"0")itsassociatednormallyclosedcontactswillbeCLOSED.AndwheneitherL4orL4S
isalogic"1",andwhenbothL94TandL4TareNOTlogic"1"s,thenL4willbealogic"1".
Ifinditeasiestto"read"rungsinthisfashion"imagining"whatstatetheassociatedlogicsignalsofnormally
openandnormallyclosedcontactshavetobeininorderforpowertoflowthroughthenormallyopenor
normallyclosedcontactsto"energize"thelogicsignalcoil(s)attherightendoftherung.Othersliketoread
themindifferentfashionspossiblylikethis:WhenL4SisTRUEORwhenL4isTRUE,ANDwhenL94Tis
FALSEANDL4TisFALSEthenL4willbeTRUE.But,it'sthesamethingTRUEandFALSEareanother
wayofdescribingwhenlogicsignalsare"1"or"0"andwhichstatethelogicsignalsneedtobeininorderfor
powertoflowthroughthemtoenergizetherung'slogicsignalcoil.Therearelotsofwaystoreadandinterpret
rungslets'juststickwiththisoneforthisdiscussion,andhopefullyitwillbecomeclearerwhythiswayworks
bestforGElogic(applicationcodeintheMarkVI).
So,fromthelongnamedescriptionsofsignalnamesinToolbox,wecanseethatL4Sstandsfor"L4Set"(or
sometimescalled"L4Start").Itwillbealogic"1"(True)whenallofthestartcheckpermissivesaremetand
whenalloftheotherfinalstartchecksarecompletedwhenaSTARTisinitiated.(Don'tworry;we'llgoover
alloftheminduetimepresumingyouhavethepatience.)
Now,let'scontinuewiththedescriptionsoftheothernamesofelementsoftheL4rung.L94Twillbealogic
"1"whenanormalshutdownisinprogressandthefuelistobeshutoffintwoofthethreecontrolprocessors,
<R>,<S>and<T>foraTMRcontrolpanelorjustin<R>foraSIMPLEXcontrolpanel.L4Twillbea
logic"1"whenanyconditionwhichtripstheturbineintwoofthethreeecontrolprocessors,<R>,<S>and
<T>foraTMRcontrolpanelorjustin<R>foraSIMPLEXcontrolpanel.(ThereareMANYsubrungsfor
L4T,andwe'llgooverallofthem.)
So,whatdoesthistellusaboutL4?InordertogetL4togotoalogic"1"(to"pickup"),L4Sneedstobea
logic"1"andL94TandL4Tbothneedtobelogic"0"s,andthenL4willalsogotologic"1"whichwillclose
thenormallyopencontactinparallelwithL4Sand"latch"or"sealin"therungsothatifEITHERL94Tgoes
toalogic"1"ORL4Tgoestoalogic"1"L4will"dropout",orgotoalogic"0".Itshouldalsobeclearthat
it'snecessaryforL4Stogotoalogic"1"togetL4toalsogotoalogic"1",butthatonceL4isalogic"1"that
L4SdoesNOTneedtoremainalogic"1"forL4toremainalogic"1"aslongasbothL94TandL4Tboth
remainlogic"0".
That'sit.OnceL4isalogic"1"thereareonlytwoconditionswhichcan"dropout"L4(makeitgotoalogic
"0")L94Tgoingtoalogic"1"orL4Tgoingtoalogic"1".Andinordertostart,runandshutdown(normal
shutdown)theturbine,L4MUSTbealogic"1",andifL4transitionsfromlogic"1"tologic"0"whilethe
turbineisstartingorrunningorshuttingdownthenthefuelstopvalve(s)willbecommandedtocloseandthe
turbinewillbetripped.(Fuelstopvalvesarenotopenduringpurgingandpriortofiring,butL4isrequiredto
bealogic"1"inordertoopenfuelstopvalveswhennecessary,andforthemtoremainopen.)
AndpresumingthatbothL94TandL4TareBOTHlogic"0"s,whichtheymustbeinordertoinitiatea
STARTthereisonlyoneconditionthatwillallowL4topickup(gotoalogic"1")andthatiswhenL4Sgoes
toalogic"1".(That'sbecausepriortoaSTART,whenaREADYtoSTARTisindicatedtotheoperator,L4is
alogic"0".Thiscanbeseeninthe'StartCheckPermissive'display.)
Hopefullyyoucanbegintoseehowthesignalnamebeingchosentodescribewhenthesignalisalogic"1"
canbehelpful.Andhopefullyyoucanalsobegintoseehowknowinghowtoreadsignalnames(mostof
themunfortunatelynotall,becausestandardsaren'talwaysadheredto)canbeverybeneficialtoquickly
readingandinterpretingrungsandlogic(applicationcodeintheMarkVI).Therearesomelittle"tricks"
whicharen'tdocumentedanywhere,noteveninGE(sad,buttrue)whichwewilldiscoveronthisjourney.
So,yourassignment,Neo,istoposttheL4Srungtothisthread(usingtheHTMLtags).And,then,please
"read"(writethesentence)thatdescribeswhenL4Swillbealogic"1".
Also,pleasepostthelongnamesforeachofthelogicsignalsintherung.Here'sanexample:
L4=MasterProtective("1"toRun)
L4S=L4Set
L4T=MasterProtectiveTrip("1"toTrip)
L94T=NormalShutdownTrip
(IbelievethatifyouhoverthecursoroverasignalnameinToolboxthelongnamedescriptionwillappearat
thelowerleftcorneroftheToolboxwindow.ThelongnamesIwrotewereexactquotesfromaMarkVIsite;
theyarenotthesameforeveryjob.JustpostwhatitsaysinyourapplicationcodefromToolbox.Sometimes,
thereisnolongname;andworse,criminally,thelongnameiswrong.That'slife,though.Welearntodealwith
it.)
WewillgothrougheachelementoftheL4Srung(whichhasseveral"subrungs",andtheL4Trung,whichhas
MANYsubrungs)soyouwillgetveryproficientatusingtheHTMLtagsand"reading"signalnames.We'll
goovertheL94Trung,too.And,wewilldiscussthevariousothertypesofproper(andpossiblyimproper)GE
signalnames,aswellasunderstandtheconditionsandpermissives.
You'regoingtohavetolookupControlConstantvalues,andvariousdevicesettings(fromtheDevice
SummarydocumentprovidedwitheveryGEdesignheavydutygasturbine).So,youwillneedtofindthe
DeviceSummarydocument(italsousedbeinVol.III,butwhoknowswhere"they"putitnow...).
Ifyouhaveanyquestionsorcommentsontheabove,let'sdealwiththosefirst.IfIintroducewordsorterms
you'reunfamiliarwith,askforclarification.Ifyou'rehavingsometroublewithnormallyopenvs.normally
closedcontacts,justbepatientwithyourself.Itwillbegintobecomeclearersoon.Bestnottogetcaughtupin
thatdiscussionbecauseitdoesgetveryclearafterawhileitjusttakeslongerforsomepeoplethanothers,but
bepatient.
Thisisgoingtobeajointeffort,buttobeofthemostbenefittoyouwearegoingtousetheexactrungsand
signalsinyourMarkVIapplicationcodesothatit'sspecifictoyourturbineandauxiliaries.Yourjobisto
providerequestedinformationrungs,ControlConstantvalues,pressureswitchortemperatureswitchsettings,
etc.andtherestwewillsortoutaswecontinueonthisjourneyofdiscovery.
Remember,relayladderlogicisjustanother"language"andithas"sentences"withverbsandpredicatesand
subjectsjustlikeanyotherlanguage.Andit'snothingmorethanlogic,sequencing.Bylearninghowto
"anticipate"whenalogicsignalwillbealogic"1"(andbyinference,whenitwon'tbealogic"1"thatis,
whenitwillbealogic"0")onecanmoreeasilyreadtherungsandbegintounderstandwhatistobehappening
sothatonecanunderstandGEdesignheavydutygasturbinecontrolandGEdesignheavydutygasturbine
controlphilosophy.
Finally,L4isjustonewaytheturbinecanbetrippedfromtheapplicationcoderunninginthecontrol
processors.Thereisalsotrippingwhichcanbedonethroughthecoreandassociatedinputstothe
coreandwe'llgettothattoaswefinishthisdiscussion.Becauseit'simportanttounderstandthisisn'ttheonly
wayaturbinecanbetrippedGEhasseveral.Bepatient,andwe'llcoverthemall,andintheprocesslearn
moreabouttheMarkVI.
I'mlookingforwardtothisjourney!Let'skeepmovingandwe'regoingto"see"someamazingthings.
"Learningisfindingoutwhatyoualreadyknew,"isoneofmyfavouritequotes.Whenpresentedcorrectly,it's
exactlywhathappensonesaystohimself(orherself),"Iknewthat!"It'sjustthatyouhadn'tthoughtitaboutit
thatwaybefore.Andwithafewlittlehints,tipsandtricksitcanbeveryeasyandintuitive,whichmeans,
well,youalreadyknewthat!
Bytheway,I'mgoingtoapologizeinadvanceformakingafewmistakesalongtheway.I'mnotagoodperson
toproofreadmyownwriting(mostpeoplearen'tgoodatproofreadingtheirownwriting),andI'mdoingthisin
mysparetime,andsoIdoandwillmakemistakes.Justhopefully,nottoomanyofthem.Pleasebepatient
withme.
By Neo on 7 May, 2014 - 9:21 am
CSA,
Thankyouforyourreply.Iamexcitedtoo,feelingi'monamysterioustripwithyou.
ThistimemyassignmentisL4Sright?
Iftherearesomemistakesanddrawbacksoryouhaveadvicejustletmeknow,andi'lltrytodobetternext
time.Ihopetohavealongandexcitingjourneywithyou.
HerecomestheL4S:
L4SX L14HR L14Y L4s

-----||-----------||----------||------------()
where:
L4SX=Masterprotectivesetauxiliarylogic(confusing)
L14HR=HPzerospeedsignal
L14Y=timedelaylossofmasterprotective(notsureifitisneeded)
So,ifL4SX,L14HRandL14Yare1,thenL4sis1,otherwiseL14remains0.
Shouldimakefurtherclassification?Butitishardforme.
IthinkL14SXisrelativelyimportant,soidigdeeper.
HerecomestheL14SX;
L3RS L1X L33cse L63QT L4SX

-----||----------||----------||----------|/|----------()
L3RS=Startupcheckpresent(notsure)
L1X=startupcheckstopmastercontrolstartuppermiss(confusing)
L33cse=startingmeanscluthengaged
L63QT=lubeoilgenlowpressurevoted
So,ifL3RS,L1X,andL33cseare1,andL63QTis0,thentheL4SXis1.
Isitenoughforthistime?Itseemsthatthelogicisendlessifigodeeper.
Ihavequestions,andsomeofthemarefoolishtoyou.
1)IthinkLmeansthetypeofvariablesislogic,anddothenumber,like4,14meanssomething?
2)IamalittleconfusedL4,canyougivemesomespecigication.
3)Howismyassignment?Iamnotsurewhetheridoitinthewayyouask.
Bestregards,Neo.
By CSA on 7 May, 2014 - 3:36 pm

Neo,
Thisisagoodstart.Pleasedobecarefulwhen"copying"signalnames;ifthesignalnamesisinallcapital
lettersinToolbox,youshoulduseallcapitalsinyourpost.Ifthesignalnameisinlowercaseletters,you
shoulduselowercaselettersinyourpost.And,pleasedoublechecktomakesureyouaretypingtheproper
signalnames(seebelow).
Yes."L"meansthesignalisalogicusually;GEviolatesthatstandardoccasionally,too,butnotveryoften,
fortunately.
And,thenumberstheyareVERYimportant.TheycorrespondtoGE'sinterpretationoftheANSIDevice
Numberingstandard,andGE'sinterpretationisveryclosetotheANSIstandard.Forexample,a"4"deviceisa
'masterprotective'or'mastercontrol'element/device.A"14"isaspeedlevelelement/device.A"33"isalimit
switchelement/device.A"63"isapressuresensingelement/device(apressureswitch).A"94"isashutdown
(normalshutdownnotemergencyshutdown,trip)element/device.A"5"isanemergencyshutdown
element/device(likeanemergencystoppushbutton).It'sVERYhelpfultocommittheANSIdevicenumber
standardtomemoryoratleasthaveacopyavailablewhenyouarereadingapplicationcode.It'scritical,
actually,andasyougetmorefamiliarwiththedevicenumbersyouwillbegintorecognizecertain
functions/signals.YoucanfindlotsofANSIlistsontheworldwidewebwithyourpreferredInternetsearch
engine.
PleasebeverycarefulwhencopyinginformationfromToolbox:
>HerecomestheL4S:
> L4SX L14HR L14Y L4s

>-----||-----------||----------||------------( )
>where:
>L4SX=Masterprotectivesetauxiliary
>logic(confusing)
>L14HR=HPzerospeedsignal
>L14Y=timedelaylossofmaster
>protective(notsureifitisneeded)
Itshouldbe:
L4SX L14HR L4Y L4S

-----||-----------||----------||------------( )
where:
L4SX=Masterprotectivesetauxiliarylogic
L14HR=HPzerospeedsignal
L4Y=timedelaylossofmasterprotective
Let'sdealwiththeL14HRsignal."14"meansit'saspeedlevelsignal,"H"meansit'srelatedtotheHPshaft
(andsinceyourturbineisasingleshaft,Ipresume)theshaftistheHPshaft,and"R"meanstheshaftis'atrest'
or,'atzerospeed.'So,L14HRisalogic"1"whentheturbinegeneratorshaftisatrest,oratzerospeed.
L4SX,asyourightlynoted,isimportant.Inthiscasethe"X"meansit'sa'permissive'or'auxiliary'toL4S.In
earlierversionsofGEdigitalSpeedtronicturbinecontrolsystems,therewasalimitofeight"elements"
horizontalstringinarung.Thatmeanstherecouldbenomorethansevencontacts(normallyopenand/or
normallyclosed)andonecoilforatotalofeight.So,ifthereweremorethansevencontactsnecessaryitwas
requiredtosplittherungintomultiplerungs,andnamethe"permissive"rungsbyapplyingan"X"suffixtothe
mainlogicsignalname.Sincemostoftheapplicationcodewascopiedfromearliercontrolsystems,thiswas
continued.Andonsometurbines,theremaybeadditionalcontactsineitherorbothoftheL4SXandL4S
rungs.
So,inyourmindyoucouldenvisionthefollowing:
L3RS L1X L33CSE L63QT L14HR L4Y L4
---| |---| |----| |------|/|-----| |----| |-----( )
becauseit'sexactlythesameasthecombinationofL4SXandL4S.
Let'stackleL4Y.Whenyouseea"Y"suffixonasignalnameitalmostalwaysmeansan"inversetimedelay"
toitsnamesake,inthiscaseL4.IfyoulookupL4YinToolbox,itwilllooklikethis:
L4 L4Y
-----|/|-------------------------(T)
1.0 sec
By"inversetimedelay"youcanseethat1.0secondafterL4transitionsfromalogic"1"toalogic"0"(which
istheinverseofalogic"1")thatL4Ywillbealogic"1".Or:
"1.0secondafterL4isNOTalogic"1",L4Ywillbealogic"1"."
[IfyoulookupL4Z,itwilllooklikethis:
L4 L4Z
-----| |-------------------------(T)
1.0 sec
A"Z"suffixalmostalwaysmeansa"timedelay"toitsnamesake,inthiscaseL4.
L4Zisread:
"1.0secondAFTERL4ISalogic"1",L4Zwillbealogic"1"."]
Let'sreadthecombinedL4SX/L4rung:
"WhenL3RSisalogic"1"ANDL1Xisalogic"1"ANDL33CSEisalogic"1"ANDL63QTisNOTalogic
"1"ANDL14HRisalogic"1"ANDL4Yisalogic"1",thenL4Swillbealogic"1"."
L3RS=ReadytoStart
L1X=AuxiliarytoSTARTcommand
l33cse=ClutchStartingEngaged(drivenbyadiscrete(contact)input
L63QT=LowL.O.PressureTRIP
L14HR=HPShaftatRest
L4Y=L4InverseTimeDelay
Ithink(Ihope!)thatthesignalyouwroteasL33CSEwasactuallyl33cse(alllowercasealphacharacters),
becausethat'sGE's"standard"forsignalsthatassociatedwithinputsandoutputstoexpressthesignalnames
inlowercasecharacters.It'snotrequiredbutit'sintendedtobehelpfultopeoplereadingtheapplicationcode
toletthemknowthoseparticularsignalnameswithlowercasealphacharactersareassociatedwithphysical
inputsoroutputs.(Again,GEdoesn'talwaysfollowtheirownstandards.Butwelearntolivewithit.)
So,now,let'srereadthecombinedL4SX/L4Srung:
"1.0secondsafterL4goestoalogic"0"ANDthe'ReadytoStart'signalisalogic"1"ANDtheSTART
commandauxiliaryisalogic"1"andtheStartingClutchisengagedANDthereisNOTaLowL.O.Pressure
Tripandtheshaftisatzerospeed,thenL4Swillbealogic"1"."
InordertobeabletostartaGEdesignheavydutygasturbine,theoperatorinterfacemustdisplaya"READY
TOSTART"indication.MostHMIshavea"StartCheckPermissiveDisplaywhichcanbeusedtodetermine
whyaReadytoStartindicationisnotbeingdisplayed.(Wearegoingtogothroughallofthatjustbepatient.)
Partofthe'ReadytoStart'indicationisthattherearenoturbinetrips(L4Tisalogic"0")rememberL4Tfrom
theL4rung.(A"3"isacompletesequenceelement/device.Inthiscase,thereadytostartsequenceis
complete.)L3RSwillbealogic"1"whenthestartcheck("ReadytoStart)sequenceiscomplete.
Whenthe"READYTOSTART"indicationisseenANDwhentheoperatorselectsSTARTandexecutesthe
commandthenL1Xwillpickup(a"1"isastartingelement/deviceperANSI&GE).WhenL1Xpicksup,that
startsseveralauxiliaries,includingtheAux.L.O.Pump,whichpressurizestheL.O.systemafterafewseconds
(iftheAux.L.O.Pumpisnotalreadyrunning).L1Xisanauxiliarysignalthatisalogic"1"whenaturbine
STARTisactive.
Also,L1XusuallystartstheHydraulicRatchetpumptoengagethestartingclutch,whichshouldcauseactuate
limitswitch33CS1aftertheclutchhalvesareengagedtomakel33csegotoalogic"1".Thesignalnametells
youwhenit'sgoingtobealogic"1"whenthestartingclutch(thejawclutchonmostmachines;aSSSclutch
onsomeunits)isEngaged.
WhenthelowL.O.pressureswitchesatthecollectorendofthegenerator(thefurthestpointawayfromthe
L.O.pumps)areactuatedmeaningtheyhavesensedminimalL.O.pressurethenlogicsignalL63QTwillgo
toalogic"0".A63isapressuresensingelement/device,mostlyapressureswitchperGE'sinterpretation.
Whenyouseea"Q"inalogicsignalnameitmeansoil,orflow.InthiscaseitmeansL.O.,andthe"T"means
'Trip.'L63QTwillbealogic"1"whentheL.O.bearingheaderpressureassensedbytheswitchesatthe
collectorendofthegeneratorisbelowtheminimumpressurerequiredtoprotectthebearings.Again,the
signalnametellsyouwhenit'sgoingtobealogic"1"whentheL.O.BearingHeaderpressureislowenough
toinitiateaturbinetrip.Inthiscase,wewantittobealogic"0"(becauseweneedthenormallyclosedcontact
tobeclosedtogetpowerflowthroughthecontact)sowewantL63QTtobeNOTalogic"1"whichisthe
sameassayingwhentheL.O.pressureisNOTlowenoughtoinitiateaturbinetrip.And,again,thatwill
happenseveralsecondsaftertheAux.L.O.pumpstartsandpressurizesthebearingheaderandthepressure
switchesatthecollectorendofthegeneratorareallactuated.
L14HRisalogic"1"whentheHPshaftisatRest.
L4Yisalogic"1"1.0secondsafterL4isNOTalogic"1".
Andthat'sL4S(andL4SX).
RegardingyourconfusionaboutL4,it'sthesignalthatsays"It'sokaytoruntheturbine"whenit'salogic"1".
Andwhenit'sNOTalogic"1"(whenit'salogic"0"),thentheturbineistobetripped.Ifyoulookathow
manyplacesintheapplicationcodeL4isused,youwillit'saLOT!Probablythemostusedsignal,because
it'sthepermissivetostartrunalotofauxiliaries,toenergizealotofsolenoids,topermitfueltoflow,andon
andon.L4mustbealogic"1"toburnfuelintheturbine,andifitchangesfromlogic"1"tologic"0"thefuel
flowratewillbestoppedtrippingtheturbine.
Thislogicsignal,L4,should>>>NEVER<<<beforcedtoalogic"1".Never.Ever.NEVER.Notevenwhen
theturbineisatzerospeed.Ifthissignalisforcedtoalogic"1"whentheturbineisnotrunning,alotof
auxiliariesmaystartandrun,andaLOTofalarmswillbeannunciated,andintheworstcase,fuelmightbe
accidentallyadmittedtothecombustors.It'sjustnoteverpermissibletoforceL4.EvenifsomeGEdocument
tellsyoutodosoit'swrong.And,itshouldabsolutelyNEVERbeforcedtoalogic"1"whentheturbineis
runningbecauseifL4Tispickedup(by,say,lowL.O.pressure,orhighvibration,orlossofflame,orexhaust
overtemperature,etc.)theturbinewillNOTtrip.So,toanyonereadingthis:NeverforceL4toalogic"1"
whethertheturbineisrunningornot.
Ihopeit'sbecomingclearerhowto"read"logicsignalnames.Ingeneral,thesignalnametellsyouwhenthe
logicisgoingtobe"1".And,armedwiththisinformation,itshouldbeeasiertoreadapplicationcode.
Don'ttrytothinkthatyouhavetolearneverythingrightnow.Youhavethisinformation,youcanprintit,and
youcanreviewitanytimeyouwish.And,it'salwaysavailableoncontrol.com.
By Batman on 10 July, 2014 - 3:22 am

DearCSA,
Iamamechanicalengineerbyqualification,tryingtounderstandGE9FAcontrolsystem.Ihaveaquestionon
L4&L4Ycommands.Howbothofthemcanbealogicalstate"1"simultaneously?AsyoumentionedL4
needstobe"1"forgettingstartpermissiveandapparentlyL4Ytooneedstobe"1"inL4Sloop.Thisisabit
confusing.Sorryinadvanceifit'sastupidquestion.
By CSA on 10 July, 2014 - 11:41 am

Batman,
Goodonyouforexpandingyourknowledge;it'sveryhelpfulformechanicalengineerstounderstandhow
turbinesoperate,too,notjusttoknowhowtoturnawrenchororientanorificeplate.
Ibelieveyoufoundatypographicalerrorinmypost(somethingIhadjustchidedNeoformaking...andthenI
madeaseriousone!).Therungsinquestionsare:
L3RS L1X L33CSE L63QT L4SX

-----| |-----| |-----| |-----|/|------------( )
L4SX L14HR L4Y L4S
-----| |---------| |---------| |------------( )
Thefirst,L4SX,isan"auxiliary"toL4S,madenecessarybecauseasequenceeditorcan'thavemorethaneight
(8)elements,soitwasbrokenintotworungsbymakingthefirstan"auxiliary"andthenincludingthe
auxiliaryinthe"actual"rung.
Theresultingrung(whichImistyped)wouldlooklikethis:
L3RS L1X L33CSE L63QT L14HR L4Y L4S

---| |---| |----| |------|/|-----| |----| |-----( )
Hopefullythispartwasclear:
>L4Yisalogic"1"1.0secondsafterL4isNOTalogic"1".
So,therungwhichImistakenlyputL4overthecoil,shouldhavebeenL4S,andthisshouldhelpclearyour
doubt.
TherungforL4isalways:
L4S L4T L94T L4

----| |--------|/|-------|/|----------( )
|
L4 |
----| |-----
Doesthishelp?Sorryforanyconfusionandthereisnosuchthingasastupidquestionwhenoneistryingto
learnsomethingnew.Justdumbanswers.
By Batman on 11 July, 2014 - 4:04 am

ThankyouCSAforthequickreplyinspiteofyourbusyschedule.I'llsummarizewhatIunderstand(about
L4Y),thenI'llaskyouaquestion.
1)L4isamasterprotectivesignal,whichisnormally"1",wheneverythingisfine.
2)But,justbeforestartup,itis"0",sothatL4YwhichisusedinSTCK2is"1"whichmakesL4S"1"ifall
otherconditionsaremet.
3)OnceafterL4Sis"1",L4changesitsstatefrom"0"to"1"ifL94T&L4Tare"0",anditremains"1"until
L94TorL4Tchangetheirstate.
NowIhaveaquestion(Assumingmycomprehensioniscorrectsofar)
WhytimedelayforL4Yisonlyonesec,ifit'susedtoblockanimmediatestartattemptfollowedbya
trip/shutdown?Onesecondseemstobelittleimpractical.Iguessit'smainpurposeistoavoidastartattempt
whenL4is"1",butnotconvincedwiththetimedelay.PleasecorrectmeifImisssomethinghere.
By CSA on 11 July, 2014 - 9:29 am

Batman,
L4Yisusedinotherrungs,notjustL4S.Thereasonthereisatimeratallistopreventwhat'scalleda"relay
race"duringvery"busy"timeswhenL4ischangingstatefrom"1"to"0".Ihonestlydon'tknowwhyit'sset
for1.0seconds,butIknowitworks.
AndIknowthatchangingthingslikethiswithoutunderstandingalltheknockoneffects(inalltheotherrungs
thatL4Yisusedin)canhaveverybadeffects.
AlotoftheapplicationcodeinSpeedtronicturbinecontrolpanelsareartifactsfromthedaysofelectro
mechanicalrelays.That'soneofthethingsthatmakesSpeedtronicpanelsuniqueeverytimeanew
SpeedtronicpanelcomesoutGEdoesn'treinventthewayitcontrolstheturbine.And,forsites/Customersthat
buynewturbineswithSpeedtronicturbinecontrolpanels,ortechnicianswithexperienceandknowledgefrom
olderversionsofSpeedtronicturbinecontrolpanels,it'sveryeasytotroubleshootandunderstandthewaythe
turbineisbeingcontrolled.
TherewasoneexceptiontothisMarkIISpeedtronicwhenGEwentawayfromrelayladderlogicand
diagramstoa"logicgate"typeofdepiction.Alotofpeoplereallydidn'tlikethatformat,eventhoughitwas
"modern"andfunctionallyexactlylikeMarkI(theturbineoperatedinvirtuallythesameway).ALOTof
MarkIIequippedturbinesweresoldaroundtheworld(andaLOTofMarkIIswerestillinservice),butalot
ofCustomerswitholderSpeedtronicturbinecontrolpanelscomplained,andwhenGEdevelopedtheMarkIV
itwentbacktorelayladderlogic/diagrams.
Theupshotofallthisis:atimedelaymaynotbenecessaryfortoday'sdigitalcontrolsystems.But,whyfix
somethingthatisn'tbroken?ItmaynotseemthatL4Sneedsatimedelay,butotherrungs/functionsprobably
do.
By otised on 11 July, 2014 - 3:25 pm

>Ihonestlydon'tknowwhyit'ssetfor1.0seconds,butIknowitworks.
EngineeringinertiaisthereasonthetimedelayonL4Yissetto1.0second.BackinthedaysofMarkI,4Y
wasatimedelaydropoutrelay(electromechanical),andIbelieve1secondwasabouttheminimumsettingon
thedevice.Basically,it'salwaysbeenthatway,itworks,whychangeit?
By CSA on 12 July, 2014 - 7:26 pm
otised,
I'mgoingtouse'EngineeringInertia'inthefuture,probablymanytimes.
You'resoPC(PoliticallyCorrect)!
By CSA on 11 July, 2014 - 11:56 am

Batman,
Ilikelydidn'taddressyourexplanationofwhat'shappeningbutit'sbasicallycorrect.
1)L4mustgotoalogic"1"inordertostarttheturbine,anditmustremainalogic"1"inordertokeepfuel
flowingtotheturbineonceflameisestablished.
2)Whentheunitisatrestorwhenit'sonCooldown(ratchet;turninggear;etc.)L4isalogic"0".Andit
doesn'tgotoalogic"1"untilanoperatorputstheunitintosomemodeotherthanOFFandinitiatesaSTART
(andalltheotherpermissivesaremet).
3)Yes;L4remains"1"untilL4TorL94Tchangesstate.L4Tgoesto"1"whenthecontrolprocessorsdetecta
conditionthatrequiresanimmediateshutoffoffuel(andemergencytrip).L94Tgoestoalogic"1"(during
normaloperation)whenflameislostduringdeceleration,ortheunitdrops"blowout"speedforaspecified
periodoftime,orwhentheunithasn'treached"blowout"speedwithinacertainperiodoftimeafteraSTOP
wasinitiated.
So,withafewqualifications,yourcomprehensioniscorrect.
By Batman on 11 July, 2014 - 11:02 pm

ThankyouCSA.yourexplanationmademeunderstandL4Ybetter,willstartfocusingonrestofthecontrol
signals.
By CSA on 13 July, 2014 - 5:59 am

Batman,
You'reverywelcome.Thanksforthefeedback!
By CSA on 7 May, 2014 - 4:11 pm

Neo,
Idon'tbelieveyou'vetolduswhatturbineyouareworkingonatyoursite....Andwhatfuel(s)itburns....And
whatkindofstartingmeansithas....
YournextassignmentistoexamineL3RS.Posttherung,andthelogicsignalnamesfromToolbox,andwrite
yoursentenceofhowtherungworks.
OneofthecontactsshouldbeL3STCK,andtheL3STCKrungshouldhaveseveralcontactslikeL3STCK0,
L3STCK1,L3STCK2,etc.PleaseposttheL3STCKrungfromyourToolboxfile.
By Neo on 11 May, 2014 - 9:46 am

CSA,
ShouldiwaitforyoucommentandguidanceorjustcontinuetoexaminethesignalL3RS?
Bestregards.
By CSA on 11 May, 2014 - 1:04 pm

Neo,
Iamworkingonmyresponse;L3STCK0isafairlyextensiverung.
Pleasecheckthe"sense"ofL45FP_STCK(normallyclosedornormallyopen).Itisconfusingme.
Itmightbeagoodideatoputtherunginyourreply.
Pleasetakeyourtimeandbecertainofthecaseofsignalnamesandthesenseofcontacts.
By Neo on 9 May, 2014 - 8:54 am

CSA,
Thankyousincerelyforyourdetailedreply.Yourcommentmakesiteasierformetoreadapplicationcode.
Firstly,ishouldmakesomeclarifications:
1)ThegasturbineisMS6001B,burningsyngas.
2)Thesignalnameofl33cseisinlowercaseletter.
ThistimemyassignmentistoexamineL3RS,andifinditalittlecomplicated.
HerecomestheL3RS:
L3RS1 L3RS2 L5VPRO_LATCH L3RS

----------||----------||----------|/|-----------()
Where:
L3RS1=Startcheckstopreadytostartlogic1;
L3RS2=Startcheckstopreadytostartlogic2;
L5VPRO_LATCH=ProtectiveVPROcardtrip_latch(Neverhearditbefore)
SO,whenReadyToStart1signal(L3RS1)andReadyToStart2signal(L3RS2)arelogic1,and
L5VPRO_LATCHis0,theL3RSwillbelogic1.
ItwillbenecessarytoexamineL3RS1andL3RS2,andthistimei'llexamineL3RS1.
L3STCK L3RS1
------------||------------()
Where:
L3STCK=Startupcheckstopstopstartcheckpermissive.
AndthesignalL3STCK:
L3STCK0 L3STCK1 L3STCK2 L3STCK3
----------||----------||----------||-----------||----------()
L3STCK0=Startupcheckstopstartchecklogic0;
Inconclusion,theL3RSisdividedinL3RS1andL3RS2,andL3RS1isdevidedinL3STCK0,L3STCK1
,L3STCK2andL3STCK3.
IwaswonderingwhatkindofsignalwillbegroupedinL3STCK0,L3STCK1,L3STCK2andL3STCK3
respectively.
L3STCK0(startchecklogic0forunitswithoutthirdfuelandnoHRSGbypass)(?)
L27BN l3cp L86TCI L3IGVFLT L5WSTOP L5ESTOP1

L45FP_STCK L3STCK0
-------||----------||----------|/|----------|/|----------|/|-------|/|-------|
/|------------( )
| |
| |
L27BZ | TRUE |
-------||---------||-------
Where:
L27BN=ACBUSnormal;
L27BZ=ACBUSundervoltage(confusing);
l3cp=startupcheckstopcustomerpermissivetostart(differencebetweenl3cpandL1X?);
L86TCI=compressorinletthermocoupledisagree(notclear);
L3IGVFLT=IGVvalvepositionservotrouble;
L86MP=startupcheckstopmasterprotstartuplockout(notsure);
L5ESTOP1=stateofESTOP1(confusing);
L45FP_STCK=Fireprotectionstartpermissive(notclear);
SO,ifanyofL27BNandL27BZislogic1,ANDl3cpislogic1,whenL86TCI,L3IGVFLT,L5WSTOP,
L5ESTOP1andL45FP_STCKarelogic0,thenL3STCKislogic1.
I'llstartwiththesignalL3IGVFLT.TheL3IGVFT:
L3IGVF1 L3IGVFLT
--------||------------( )
|
L3IGVF2 |
--------||---------
ThesignalL3IGVF1andL3IGVFareoutputsfromL86GVTV2block,andmyinterpretationiswhenthecsgv
is<31and>35,theL3IGVFLTislogic1.
ItseemsthattheL3IGVFTsignalwillfunctiononlybeforegasturbinestartup.(amnotsureforicannotfigure
outthesignalL3IGV).
Iampoorinelectricknowledge,sotheothersignalsarenoteasyforme.Butididwhatican,ilookedupthe
ANSIdevicenumbers;
27:undervoltagerelay
86:lockoutrelay
1.Doesthatmeansignalnameswith27/86arerelatedtothestatusofcertainrelay?
Andwhat'sthedifferencebetweenundervoltagerelayandlockoutrelay?
2.Canyouexplainthewordlockoutforme,becauseit'shardformetounderstand.
Iftheabovequestionsaretooeasy,justletmeknow,andi'lltrytofindansweronmyown.
Iwouldliketocontinuenexttime,isitok?Becauseitisnoteasyforme:}
Andi'lltrytodobetternexttime.
By CSA on 11 May, 2014 - 5:02 pm

Neo,
Thanksfortheinformationabouttheturbineatyoursite.Whatisthesourceofthesyngas?Doestheunitstart
andstoponsyngas,also,ordoesituseanotherfuel(naturalgasorliquidfuel(distillate)forstartingand
stoppingandyouhavetotransfertosyngasatsomespeed/load?
Asforquestionsbeingtooeasy,sometimestheeasiestonesarethehardestonestoanswer.Ilearnalotfrom
teaching,andIliketosay,"Thereisnosuchthingasadumbquestionjustdumbanswers."
A27mayberelatedtoaprotectiverelay,oritmightberelatedtothepresence/absenceofvoltageinoneofthe
MCCsorthebatterycharger.Undervoltageisundervoltage;itindicatesthelossoforthelackofaminimum
levelofvoltageforsomecondition.
Alockoutconditionisonethatrequiressomemanualinterventiontoreset.Theintentistomakecertainthat
someoneisawareoftheproblemandhastakenappropriateactiontoresolvetheconditionbeforethealarm
conditionisunlatched,andmanytimesbeforetheturbinecanberestarted.
An86deviceisalockoutwhichmaybearelay,oritmaybealatchedalarm/tripconditionasdescribed
above.An86lockoutrelayisarelaythatmustbemanuallylatched(againstspringpressurethatwould
otherwiseopenthelatch).Whenoneofseveralotherrelaysoperates(whenaseriousconditionisdetected),it
operatesanelectriccoilthatunlatchestherelay.
Therearemanydifferentgenerator/transformerprotectiverelaysorrelayfunctionseachwithitsownunique
ANSIdevicenumber.
So,if2ofthe3theVPROsinthecoreinitiateatrip,fromthesignalnameL5VPRO_LATCHIwould
presumetheyarelatchedinthetripconditionandL5VPRO_LATCHwouldgotoalogic"1".Oncethetrip
conditionisresolvedandclearedtoresetthealarmandunlatchthetriponeprobablyhastoissuea'Master
Reset'fromtheHMItomakeL5VPRO_LATCHtogobacktologic"0"whichisthegoodcondition.When
L5VPRO_LATCHisalogic"1"the"READYTOSTART"indicationcan'tbeachieved.
Yes;thenextlogicalrungwouldbeL3RS1,whichis"drivenby"L3STCK,whichisdrivenbythefourstart
checkrungs:L3STCK0,L3STCK1,L3STCK2andL3STCK3(foryourmachine).Iftherewasn'talimittothe
numberofhorizontalrungelementstherewouldonlyneedtobeasinglerungprobablyL3STCK,butsince
therearewellmorethansevenstartcheckpermissivestherehastobemorethanonerung,with"auxiliary"
rungsusedtogetallthestartcheckstofinallypickupL3STCK.
AndthenextlogicalstepwouldbetoanalyzeL3STCK0.Though,atonepointyoulistedL3STCK0as
"Startupcheckstopstartchecklogic0"andinanotherplaceyoulisteditas"startchecklogic0forunits
withoutthirdfuelandnoHRSGbypass".Wheredidyoufindthetwodescriptions?(Iguessthesecond
descriptionwasfroma'Comment'intheapplicationcode.?.?.?)
Ithinkyoumighthavebeeninagreathurrywhentypingyourresponse....IthinktheL27BNandL27BZ
shouldhavebeenl27bnandl27bzandthecontactforL45FP_STCKshouldhavebeennormallyopen,not
normallyclosed.Thisisbecausebothl27bnandl27bzareusuallyassociatedwithindividualdiscrete(contact)
inputsfromrelaysinthegeneratorprotectionpanel.
And,ifthesignalnameL45FP_STCKwaschosencorrectly,thenitshouldbealogic"1"whentheFire
ProtectionSystemiscapableofdetectingafire,trippingtheturbine,anddischargingfireextinguishingagent.
AndwewanttheFireProtectionsystemtobecapableofalloftheabove.IfL45FP_STCKisalogic"1"when
it's"ready"thenthenormallyclosedcontactyoudrewwouldbeopen,andL3STCK0wouldnotgottoalogic
"1"whichiswhatweneedtogetaREADYTOSTART.
l27bn=isalogic"1"whentheBusVoltageisNormal
l27bz=isalogic"1"whentheBusVoltageisNOTNormal(the"Z"inthiscasemeans'inverse')
l3cp=logic"1"whenthe'CustomerPermissive'toSTARTisalogic"1"
TRUE=???ThisisoneI'mnotfamiliarwith,butIthinkit'salwaysalogic"1"ALWAYS
L86TCI=isalogic"1"whentheredundantaxialcompressorinletthermocouplesdisagree(haveawide
discrepancy)bymorethanasetpoint
L3IGVFLT=isalogic"1"whenanIGVFaulthasbeendetected
L5WSTOP=(youdidn'tprovideadescription,andI'mnotfamiliarwiththisoneatall)
L5SETOP1=isalogic"1"whenoneoftheESTOPPushbuttoninputstothecoreisactuated(open)
L45FP_STCK=is(shouldbe)alogic"1"whentheFireProtectionStartcheckPermissiveissatisfied(unless
thesignalnamewaschosenincorrectly)
So,let'sreadtherung:
"IfthebusvoltageISnormalORthebusvoltageisNOTnormal,ANDiftheCustomerPermissiveto
Startisalogic"1"ORTRUEisalogic"1",ANDthecompressorinletthermocouplesDONOTdisagreewith
eachotherANDthereisNOTanIGVfaultANDthereisNOTanL5WSTOPANDthefirstEStopinputto
thecoreisNOTactuatedANDtheFireProtectionStartcheckPermissiveisNOT[???]satisfied,then
L3STCK0willbealogic"1".
Thel27bn/l27bzparallelcombinationisawaytobesurethebusPTsarebothsensingvoltageorbothNOT
sensingvoltage.(The"bus"isthevoltageontheothersideofthegeneratorbreakerthegridvoltage,the
"running"voltageasit'softencalled.)Thetwologicsignalsshouldeachbedrivenbyseparatediscreteinputs
(whichiswhyIputthesignalsnamesinlowercaseletters)fromabusundervoltagerelaythatispickedup
whenbothPTssensebusvoltage,orwhenbothPTsDONOTsensebusvoltage.Ifthereisaproblemsensing
busvoltagethereshouldbeaProcessAlarmtoalerttheoperatortothecondition.
Notethatacompletelackofbusvoltagedoesnotpreventastart;manytimesfortestingthereisnobusvoltage
whenaturbineisstarted,orsometurbineshavetheabilitytocloseontoadeadbus.Sothelackofbusvoltage
doesnotpreventastart;butwhenthereisnobusvoltage(acompletelackofbusvoltage)thereisaprocess
alarmforthattoalerttheoperatortothecondition,but,againitdoesnotpreventastart.Arecentthreadon
control.comindicatedsometurbinesstartwithadeadbus,andthencloseonthebuswitha"dead"generator,
andthenapplyexcitationandslowlyincreasegeneratorterminalvoltageto"chargetheline"(the"bus"line).
And,thisisagoodtimetomentionthateverystartcheckpermissiveshouldbeaccompaniedbyaProcess
Alarmtoalerttheoperatorwhya'READYTOSTART'isnotbeingdisplayedEXCEPTonesignal.And
we'llgettothatonesoonenough.
Thel3cp/TRUEparallelcombinationisawaytobypassa'CustomerPermissivetoStart'discreteinputwhich
usuallyexistsinmostallSpeedtronicsystems.ItmightbefromtheDCSsayingtheHRSGdrumsarefulland
heatcanbeappliedtotheHRSGfromthegasturbineexhaust,oritjustmightanoperatorselectionfromthe
DCSsayingtheyarepreparedforagasturbinestart.(Thissignaldoesnottriptheturbinewhentheturbineis
runningifitgoestoalogic"0";itjustmustbealogic"1"tostarttheturbine.Ifit'snot,thereshouldbea
ProcessAlarmtoalerttheoperatorthereisnoCustomerPermissivetoStart.)TheTRUEisthesoftware
"bypass"tol3cp;ifthereisnodiscreteinputconnectedtotheSpeedtronicitwillneverchangestate,sothe
softwareTRUE(whichisALWAYSalogic"1")isusedtobypassl3cpwhenthereisnosignalfromthe
"Customer."Inthe"old"days,weusedtojustputahardwirejumperonthel3cpdiscreteinputterminalsto
permanentlymakel3cpalogic"1";thisisjustasoftwareequivalentofthat.Thesignalcouldhavebeenjust
deletedfromtherung;TRUEcompletelybafflessomepeoplesinceit'snotexplainedinanyGE
documentationanywhere.)
L86TCIalogicsignalthatwarnstheoperatorofaproblemwiththeaxialcompressorinletthermocouples,
usuallysignalCTIF1,CTIF2andsometimesCTIF3(CompressorTemperatureInlet,Flange1,2or3).
Thereissomelogicintheapplicationcodethatcheckstomakesurethethreesignalsarewithinanallowable
rangeofeachother;ifnot,thenagasturbinestartisnotpermitted.Thisisbecauseaxialcompressorinlet
temperatureisusedforbiasingHPshaftspeedforsomeveryimportantfunctions(theresultantsignalis
TNHCOR,TurbineSpeedHPShaft,Corrected).So,ifthetemperaturemeasurementsarenotreasonablyclose
toeachotherthenthereisagoodpossibilitythatTNHCORcanbeadverselyimpactedwhichcouldaffect
turbineoperation.
The"86"inthesignalnameisanindicationthattheconditionrequiresaMasterResettounlatchthealarm
oncetheconditionhasbeencorrected.Signalswith"86"inthenamearegenerallycalled"lockout"signals.
MostdorequireaMasterReset;somedonot(unfortunately;anotheroccasionwhenGEdoesn'tadheretoits
ownstandard).
L3IGVFLTisalogicsignalthatwecanspendmoretimeonifyouwish.Asyounoted,it'scheckingtomake
suretheIGVsarewithinreasonablelimitsofwheretheyshouldbepriortostarting.Theminimummechanical
stopontheIGVringissetforapproximately32DGA,sothelowerlimitshouldbesomethingslightlyless
thanthatand31DGAisareasonablenumber.Theminimumoperatingangleduringstartingis34DGAand
theIGVsshouldn'tbemuchmoreopenthatpriortoastart,so35DGAisalsoareasonablenumber.Thisisjust
achecktomakesuretheIGVsareinareasonablepositionpriortostarting(presumingtheLVDTfeedbackis
properlycalibrated).TheIGVsareonemethodtolimitaxialcompressorsurge/stallduringstartingbykeeping
them"closed"(34DGAorsoisconsideredclosed).(Axialcompressorsareveryunusualandhavesomevery
uniquerequirements.)
Thedescriptionyouprovided,probablyfromToolbox,canbemisleading.Aservoproblemmightbethecause
ofthislogicsignalbeing"1",but,itmightjustbethattheIGVswereleftinsomepositionotherthanwhatthey
shouldbeafteramaintenanceoutage,ortheIGVLVDTcalibrationisinaccurate(thishappensaLOT,
unfortunately)whichisNOTaservovalveproblem,it'sahumanproblem.Sometimes,theIGVminimum
mechanicalstopisalsonotsetcorrectlyafteramaintenanceoutagewhentheIGVshavebeenworkedon,
resultingintheIGVsgoingto30.9or30.8DGAwhichisnothorrible,butisapproachingthelimitsof
acceptability.WhenaSTARTsignalisinitiated,theIGVTripSolenoid,20TV1willbeenergizeand
hydraulicpressurewillmovetheIGVstotheminimumoperatingcondition(34DGA).So,ifpersonnelare
CERTAINtheIGVLVDTsareproperlycalibratedANDthatthemechanicalstophasnotbeproperlysetit's
sometimespermissibletochangethelimittopreventthealarm.But,anyvaluelessthanapproximately30.5
DGAmeanstheminimummechanicalstopshouldberepositioned(itwasmoved)ortheIGVLVDTshavenot
beenproperlycalibratedwhich,again,isNOTaservovalveproblem;it'sameasurementandcalibration
procedureproblemwhichshouldbecorrectedbeforestarting.
Also,IwouldbeinterestedtoknowiftheapplicationcodeforyourturbinerequiresaMasterResettounlatch
L3IGVF1andL3IGVF2oncetheconditionhasbeenresolved.Ifso,thiswouldbeanexampleofalockout
thatdoesn'thave"86"inthename.(Isn'tthisfun?)
IwouldliketoseetherungforL5WSTOP,asit'snotsomethingI'mfamiliarwith.So,ifyouwould,please,
postittoyournextreply.
L5SETOP1isalogicsignalthatcomesfromthecorewhenoneofEStopP/B(Pushbutton)circuitsis
NOTclosed.(EStopP/Bcircuitsarenormallyclosed,andwhenthecircuitopens(bypressingthetheEStop
P/B)theturbineistripped.Thereareacouple,ifIrecallcorrectly,EStopP/Binputssoit'seasiertoidentify
whichEStopP/Bhasbeenactuated(orpossiblyawireinthecircuithascomelooseitdoeshappen!).Note
againthiscomesfromcore.Itisahardwaretrip,asopposedtoasoftwaretrip.It'smeanttobea
"positive"meansoftrippingtheturbine(byopeningthecircuit)withouthavingtogothroughsoftwaretotrip
theturbine.(Therearealsosoftwaretrips,butIbelievemanyinsurancecompaniesandsometechnical
regulationsandstandardsrequireahardwaremethodoftrippingtheturbine.)Hopefully,wewillrememberto
coverthiswhenwegettotheL4Trungs,andotherwaystotriptheturbine.
L45FP_STCK;thisoneIbelieveiseitheranincorrectlychosensignalname,atypo,orthecontactsense
(normallyopenvs.normallyclosed)istypedwrong.Thesignalnameindicatesthissignalwillbealogic"1"
whenthefireprotectioncircuitis"ready"todetectafire,triptheturbineanddischargefireextinguishingagent
(CO2orwatersprays).Ifthesignalnameiscorrectthelogicis"1"whenit'sactiveandina"ready"condition
thenthecontactsenseasshowniswrong.Ifthecontactsenseiscorrect(fromtheapplicationcode),thenthisis
anexampleofsomeonenotchoosingasignalnamecorrectly....
Let'sworkonL3STCK1next,but,alsopleaseposttheL5WSTOPrung,andifthesenseoftheL45FP_STCK
contactiscorrectasyouhavetypedit,pleaseposttheL45FP_STCKrung,also.And,pleasecheckonthecase
ofsignalsl27bnandl27bz;iftheyareindeedallcapitals,thenpleasechecktoseeiftheyaredrivenbydiscrete
inputs;thiscouldalsobeanotherexampleofGEnotadheringtotheirownstandards....(What'sthepurposeof
havingstandards,eh?)
By Neo on 12 May, 2014 - 11:10 am

CSA,
Gladtocontinuethisfindingjourney,andthankyouangainforyourdetailedreply.
Firstihavetoapologizetoyouforseveralunnecessarymistakesimade.So,i'llstartwithsomeclarification:
1)ThesenseofL45FP_STCKisnormallyopen.
2)ThereisnosignalnamedL5WSTOP,itshouldbeL86MP.(weirdmistake,sorryagain)
ButthesignalL27BNandL27BZdoincapitalletter.
SOtheL3STCK0rungshouldbe:
L27BN l3cp L86TCI L3IGVFLT L86MP L5ESTOP1

L45FP_STCK L3STCK0
-------||----------||----------|/|----------|/|----------|/|-------|/|-------|
|------------()
| |
| |
L27BZ | TRUE |
-------||---------||-------
Where:
L27BN=ACBUSnormal;
L27BZ=ACBUSundervoltage;
l3cp=startupcheckstopcustomerpermissivetostart;
L86TCI=compressorinletthermocoupledisagree;
L3IGVFLT=IGVvalvepositionservotrouble;
L86MP=startupcheckstopmasterprotstartuplockout(confusing);
L5ESTOP1=stateofESTOP1;
L45FP_STCK=Fireprotectionstartpermissive;
ICheckedthesourceofsignal
true true
l27bn1---------||---------L27BN; l27bz1---------||---------L27BZ;
Inyourreply,youmentionedifthesignalisdrivenbyadiscrete(contact)inputitshouldbeinlowercaseletter.
Iamconfusedaboutthemeaningoftheword'discrete'.
Doyoumeanthatifonesignalisdirectedfromsensorsit'snameshouldbeinlowercaseletter?
Iamstillalittleconfusedaboutrelay,asmyunderstanding,arelayfunctionslikeaswitch,whenDOislogic1,
thenitclosedandthecircuitispoweredwithelectricity.
The(undervoltage)relayand(lockout)relayconfuseme.TakesignalL27BNasanexample,howdoesa
undervoltagerelayrelatedtoL27BN?
Yeah,theapplicationcodeinmyturbinerequiresaMasterResettounlockL32IGVF1andL3IGVF2.
LastthingtoclarifytheseconddescriptionofLSTCK0docomesfromToolbox,andifinditmisleading.
HerecomestheLSTCK1:
l26qn L28FDSCK L430 L14HR L86HD l12hblt

L3STCK1
-----------||---------||--------|/|---------||------------|/|---------|\|-----
-()
Where:
l26qn=Lubeoiltanktemperaturelowlow;
L28FDSCK=Flamedetectortrouble;
L430=Offmodoselected;
L14HR=HPzerospeedsignal;
L86HD=Hydraulicprotectivetrouble;
l12hblt=overspeedbolttrip;
Ifthe'lubeoiltanktemperatureislowerthansetpoint'AND'anyoneoftheflamedetectordetectnosignalof
flamebeforestartAND'offMODE'isnotselected'AND'theHPshaft'isatrestAND'Hydraulicprotectiveis
notlogic1'ANd'overspeedbolttripisnotlogic1',thenL3STCKwillbelogic1.
Astosignall26qn,doesitfromatemperatureswitchwhichoutputs1whenthetemperatureislowerthan
setpoint?Ithinkthetemperatureoflubeoilaffectitsperformance.
Itseemsthesignalisrelatedtothefuelservosystem,andithinkitisimportant.Shouldiexamineitnexttime?
IamconfusedaboutL430signal,doesitaninputfromHMI?Andjusttonormallyshutdowngasturbine?
Uptonow,iwasconfrontedalotofsignalsandifindithardtosortitout?Whatshouldifocusonthroughthis
journey?
By Neo on 12 May, 2014 - 11:27 am
CSA,
Iwillgiveabriefintroductionofgasturbineonmysitesometimelater.Iwillprepareit.
Bestregards.
Neo
By Neo on 12 May, 2014 - 11:45 pm

CSA,
Irereadtheyourresponsebelow.
"Thel27bn/l27bzparallelcombinationisawaytobesurethebusPTsarebothsensingvoltageorbothNOT
sensingvoltage.(The"bus"isthevoltageontheothersideofthegeneratorbreakerthegridvoltage,the
"running"voltageasit'softencalled.)Thetwologicsignalsshouldeachbedrivenbyseparatediscreteinputs
(whichiswhyIputthesignalsnamesinlowercaseletters)fromabusundervoltagerelaythatispickedup
whenbothPTssensebusvoltage,orwhenbothPTsDONOTsensebusvoltage.Ifthereisaproblemsensing
busvoltagethereshouldbeaProcessAlarmtoalerttheoperatortothecondition."
IthinktherearetwoPTsmeasuringthebusvoltage,bothofthemoutputitslogicsignalthroughthestatusofa
relay.Therelayoutputssignall27bnisclosedwhenthebusvoltageisnormalandtheotherrelaythatoutputs
signall27bzisclosedwhenthebusvoltageisbelowsetpoint.
Soitisthehardwarewayofjudgingthestatusofbusvoltage.
Itcanalsobedoneinsoftwarewaybyimplementingthecompareblock.
Isitright?
Bestregards
Neo
By CSA on 13 May, 2014 - 10:00 am

Neo,
Whoa,there.Let'snotgettoofaraheadofourselves.
Youhadaskedaboutrelaysanddiscreteinputs(andbyextension,discreteoutputs)andyou'retalkingabout
relaysherelikeyouhaveagoodunderstandingofthem.
Adiscreteinput(oroutput)toaprogrammablecontrolsystem(andtheMarkVIisapurposebuilt
programmablecontrolsystembuilt,primarily,forthepurposeofcontrollingGEdesignheavydutygas
turbines)isonethatiseither"on"or"off","1"or"0","true"or"false","energized"or"deenergized","picked
up"or"droppedout","close"or"open",andsoon.Ithasonlyoneoftwopossiblestates.
Arelayissimplyadeviceforconveyinginformationviacontacts,thatareeitheropenorclosed,whenthe
relayisenergizedordeenergized.Relaysusuallyhavemorethanonesetofcontacts.Thecontactscanbe
electricallyseparate(havenocommonelectricalcircuits),ortheycanhaveelectricallycommoncontacts(so
called"cform"contactsthathaveanormallyopenandnormallyclosedterminalandshareaCOMmon
terminal).Inthecaseofanundervoltagerelay,itissendingadiscretesignaltotheSpeedtronicaboutthe
presence,orabsence,ofvoltage.Additionalcontactsoftheundervoltagerelaymaybeusedinothercircuitsfor
thesamepurpose(toindicatethepresenceorabsenceofvoltage).Relaysareprettysimpledevices,however,
theyrequireapowersource(110/220VAC;24VAC;24VDC;125VDC;andmanyothersdependingonthe
manufacturerandapplication).Theyareelectromechanicaldevices,andassuch,theycanfailwhentheelectric
coilfails,orwhenthecontactsweldclosedorthespringfails.
NowtoyourpresentquestionaboutL27BNandL27BZ.GEandit'spackagerstypicallyusetwoPTstosense
busvoltage,andtwoPTstosensegeneratorterminalvoltagebotharrangedinwhat'scalledanopendelta
configuration.Ifanyphasevoltageislost,orifthereisafailureofanysinglePTthen,inthiscase(thebus
voltage)l27bn1(Ibelieveyousaiditwasatyoursite,thatdrivesL27BN)willnotpickup.Conversely,both
PTshavetoindicatethereisNObusvoltagebeforel27bz(whichIbelieveyousaiddrivesL27BZatyoursite)
willindicateacompletelossofbusvoltage.Therereallyisnopointinstartingagasturbinethatdrivesa
generatorifthereisaproblemwiththebusvoltagebecauseitisverylikelythatthegasturbinewillhavetobe
stoppedtosorttheproblem.
AsforwhetherornotthecheckscouldbedonewithaCOMPareblock,well,yes.Butthenonewouldneedto
haveadditionalACvoltageinputcircuits(atadditionalcostandcomplexity)whensimplerelayswilldothe
jobmorethanadequatelybyprovidingdiscreteinputs.
Discreteinputshavehistoricallybeenmuchcheapertoimplementthananaloginputs(voltages;currents).
Unfortunately,sometimesdiscreteinputsdon'thaveasmuch"information"available(suchastheactual
voltagelevels,versusaminimumorzerovoltagelevel,orevenamaximumvoltagelevelinsomecases).
Also,historicallyitwasmucheasiertopredictthefailuremodeofmosttypesofdiscreteinputdevices
(pressureswitches;temperatureswitches;etc.).AndGEisallaboutreliabilityandinthepasttransmitters
weren'tsoreliableandcouldfailfullonaswellasfulloff.
Also,historicallyprovidingpower(24VDCor110/220VAC)fortransmitterswasexpensive,aswere
transmitters,themselves.Aswasthecostandcomplexityofanaloginputcircuits.Forreliability,itwouldbe
necessarytohaveredundantanaloginputswhichwouldalsoincreasecostandcomplexity.So,mostlydiscrete
inputswereusedandverysuccessfully,too.OlderSpeedtronicpanels(predigitalversions)onlyhadlimited
analoginputsandoutputs:speed(frequency,andpriortothatvoltage);temperature(thermocouplesmore
reliablethanRTDsanddon'trequireadditionalpowersupplies,thoughtheydidrequirecoldjunction
compensationcircuits(beVERYthankfulwedon'thavetodoTHATanymore!);oneortwopressure
transmitters(fuelgasintervalve(P2)pressureandaxialcompressordischargepressure(CPD:Compressor
Pressure,Discharge);LVDTs;servovalveoutputs.Almosteveryothersignalwasadiscreteinputoroutput.
Andthisbringsmetosaythingsneedtoslowdownjustalittle,well,maybealittlemorethanthat.Ihavejust
beengivenarushassignmentatworkandIneedtodevotetimetothat(sinceIgetpaidatwork,andIdon'tget
paidforthisendeavour).Also,youhaveaskedseveralquestionsabouttermsandwordsandwehaven'thada
chancetocovertheminanydetailyet.Weneedtokeepsomefocusheresothatwedon'tgetaheadof
ourselves.Weneedtobesurethatallquestionsgetansweredbeforewejumptoanothertopicorrung.
Controlsystemshavegottenmoreandmoresophisticatedoverthelastfewdecades.Andtheyhavegottenboth
cheaperandmoreexpensive.IcanrecallwhenUSD140,000.00foraMarkIVSpeedtronicturbinecontrol
panelwasaLOTofmoneyanditwasn'tallthatcapableasaprogrammablecontrolsystem.Now,MarkVIes
arenearlytwotothreetimesasmuch,buttheydohaveaLOTmorecapability,andtheyaremuchmore
expandable(inputsoroutputscanbe"easily"addedtothecontrolsystem(easilyisarelativetermmuch
easierthantheMarkIV!).
But,onehastorememberthatasthecontrolsystemschangedandimprovedoverthedecades,GEdesign
heavydutygasturbinesbasicallyremainedthesame.Theturbinedesignersandpackagerswereloatheto
changeinputsandoutputs(lotsofchangestolayoutdrawings,andschematics,andmanufacturingpractices
andsourcingandwarehousingandpartslistsandmanuals).ItcanbecomeVERYexpensivetochangeinputs
andoutputsjustbecausethecontrolsystemcapabilityhasimproved.
And,it'soneofthethingsthathavemadeGEdesignheavydutygasturbinessoreliableandsodesirable:They
don'tchangeverymuch.Theyareprettyconstantthingsinaveryfastchangingworld.TheyareRELIABLE
whentheyareoperatedandmaintainedproperlybypeoplewhoareproperlytrainedandhaveaccesstoquality
partsandservices.ThecontrolphilosophiesGEhasemployedovertheyearshaveproventobeveryrobust
andveryscalable(meaningthatasGEdesignheavydutygasturbineshavegottenlargerandmorepowerful
thecontrolsystemswereabletobeexpandedtomaintainsimilaroperationandprotectionphilosophiesand
methods).So,whenyouask,"Couldn'tthisbedonewithaCOMPareblock?"onehastothinkbacktohow
thingshaveevolvedtothepresentconditionwhensomeonecanaskaquestionlikethat.
Imaginehowmanywireswouldbehavetobeusedtointerconnectallthesedevicestoasinglecontrolsystem.
Imaginehowcomplicatedandlargesuchacontrolsystemwouldhavetobe.Idon'tknowaboutyou,but
ILOATHEEuropeanstyle,highdensityterminalboardsevenwhenappropriatesizedwiresareusedon
them.Iprefertohaveterminalboardsthathavetouseavoltmetereasilyandwithoutfearofshortingor
grounding,andwhereIcanseeterminationsvisuallyandwhereIcanhandlewiresfortroubleshootingand
repairpurposes.And,you'reproposingevenmorewiresandmoreterminalboardsandmoreprintedcircuit
cardsandmorecomplexity.
Anyway,I'menjoyingourtimeandthisjourney,butIhavetolimitmytimeforthenextcoupleofweeks.AsI
saidbeforedon'ttrytoingestallofthisrightnow,immediately.That'sthegreatthingaboutthisforum:itwill
behereforalongtime.Andthethingsthatarewrittenherewillbehereforalongtime.Andyoucanreferto
themasyourunderstandinggrows.Andyoushouldbereadingandrereadingthemovertimeasyour
knowledgeandexperiencegrows.It'saLOTofinformationtotrytotakeinallatoncewehaven'teven
touchedoninversionmasking!Andwehaven'tfinishedthestartcheckpermissives.Andwehaven'tstartedthe
trips!
So,let'sdialitbackalittlebit,andletmegetcaughtbackupatmydayjob,andfinishonerungbeforewestart
another.There'salwaystimeformorequestions.
By CSA on 14 May, 2014 - 12:10 pm

Neo,
AsforthatseconddescriptionofL3STCK0,GEistryingtousethesamesequencingwithslightmodifications
forallheavydutygasturbines.Makessense,right?Ifitworks,whychangeit?Anditworks.Hasfordecades.
Again,it'soneofthethingsthatmakeGEunitssodesirableandsoreliabletheoperationandcontrol
philosophieshavenotchangedmuchovertheyearsandit'sveryreliable.
ThatCommentfromtheapplicationcodeissupposedtobefortherequisitionengineerswhoputthe
applicationcodetogetherinthefactory.Sometimes(often)thoseengineersdon'treallyhaveanyfield
experienceatall,andtheymakesillyComments.That'sasillyComment.
AsforL3STCK1.Youmadeaprettyhugemistakeonthefirstsignal,l26qn.Whywouldyouwanttostarta
turbineif:"thelubeoiltanktemperatureislowerthansetpoint"(yourwordsfromthesentenceforL3STCK1)?
l26qnisalogic"1"whentheL.O.Tanktemperatureisnormal.It'sdrivenbyadiscreteinputfroma
temperatureswitch,26QN1.Theswitchcontactsareclosedwhenthetanktemperatureis"normal"(whatever
theswitchsetpointisfromtheDeviceSummarydrawing,usuallyaboveapproximately60degF).Andwhen
theswitchcontactsareclosed,l26qnwillbealogic"1".ThisdiscreteinputisNOTinverted.(We'llgetto
inversionmasksshortly,butIwanttogetyoustartedthinkingaboutandanticipatingtheconcept.)Therewill
beaProcessAlarmtoindicatetheL.O.TankTemperatureisLow.
L28FDSCKisasignalthatisalogic"1"whennoneoftheflamedetectorsisindicatingflamewhentheunitis
notrunning.And,onedoesn'twanttostartaturbinewhenoneormoreoftheflamedetectorsindicatesflame
whenfuelisn'tflowing....TherewillbeaProcessAlarmtosaytheflamedetectorsarenotinareadytostart
condition.
L43O.Thecontactisnormallyclosed,andL43Oisalogic"1"whenOFFmodeisselected,sotohavepower
flowthroughthenormallyclosedcontactL43Owouldhavetoalogic"0",orwhenOFFmodeis
NOTselected.Here'stheONLYstartcheckpermissivethatdoesn'thaveaProcessAlarmtoalertthe
operator.Why?Becauseonedoesn'tneedaREADYTOSTARTindicationiftheunitisinOFFmode.In
otherwords,togetaREADYTOSTARTindicationtheoperatorhastoselectCRANK,FIRE,AUTOorone
oftheotheravailablemodes,butwhenOFFisselectedtheunitcan'tbestartedanyway.It'snotaalarm
conditionwhenOFFmodeisselected.So,operatorsjusthavetoknow:WhentheywantorneedaREADYTO
STARTtheyhavetobeinsomemodeotherthanOFF.
L43Odoesn'tcomefromtheHMI.TheHMIsendsacommandtotheSpeedtronictoswitchtoOFFmode,and
ifallofthepermissivesaresatisfiedtoallowOFFmodetobeselectedthenlogicsignalL43Oissettoalogic
"1".TheHMIdoesn'tdoanycontrolorprotectionitjustsendscommandstotheSpeedtronic,andmonitors
theoperationoftheunit(viasignalsfromtheSpeedtronic),and,ofcourseitdisplaysalarmsfromthe
Speedtronic.LOTSofalarms.Toomanyalarms,mostwouldsaybutthat'sbecauseofpoorconfiguration
and/orpoormaintenanceorlackofunderstandingorjustlackofresponsetoalarms.Mostoperators,andtheir
supervisors/managers,justdon'tpayanyattentiontoanyalarmsaslongastheturbinerunsanddoesn'ttrip.
TheythinktheSpeedtronicwillprotecttheturbineandtripitifit'snecessaryandforthemostpart,itwill.But
therearesomeconditionsthatrequireoperatoraction,andmostoperators(andtechniciansandoperations
supervisors/managers)don'tknowwhenanalarmisindicativeofapossiblylargerproblem.And,that'sjust
poortrainingandlackofpersonalmotivationbothofwhicharepermittedintoomanyplants.
L14HRisalogic"1"whentheunitisatrest,orwhenit'satzerospeed.MANYpeoplelookatthelogicthat
drivesL14HRandtheyseethatitdoesn'tactuallychangestateat0.000percentspeed,butsomethingslightly
higher,andtheythinkthat'swrong(??!!!??!)andsotheychangeitto0.000%andthentheSpeedtronicdoesn't
work.Passivespeedpickupsaren'tverygoodatverylowRPMsandthat'swhythespeedlevelisn'tsetat
exactly0.000%(0RPM).Ithinkit'ssetforsomethinglike3RPM,whichisjustfineforthispurposewhichis
toprotectthejawclutchfrombeingdamagedifit'sengagedwhentheturbineshaftisspinning.That's
(probably)whyyourunithastowaittogetdownto"zero"speedtostartbecauseithasajawclutchwhich
shouldn'tbeengagedwhentheturbineshaftisstillspinning(and3RPMisn'tveryfast!).
L86HD.ThisisaconditionandProcessAlarmthatconfusesmanypeoplebecauseofthealarmmessagetext:
HydraulicProtectiveTrouble.ForpresentdayGEdesignheavydutygasturbinesthisalarmhasNOTHINGto
dowiththeHydraulicSystem.ItisrelatedtotheTripOilsystem,andthepresenceofTripOilpressureinthe
systemwhenthereshouldNOTbepressure.Itisalockoutsignifiedbythe"86"inthesignalname,which
meansthatwhentheTripOilpressureconditionisresolvedaMasterResetisrequiredtounlatchthealarm,
andpermitaREADYTOSTART.
l12hbltisdrivenbyadiscreteinput(thesignalnameisallinlowercaseletters),andit'salogic"1"whenthe
mechanicaloverspeedboltisactuated.ThisinputISinverted,whichmeansitisalogic"1"whenthecontacts
oftheoverspeedboltareopen.Asexplained,thecontactsoftheL.O.Tanktemperatureswitch,26QN1,are
closedwhenthetanktemperatureisnormal,andl26qnisalogic"1".ItisNOTaninvertedinput.Inthiscase,
whenthecontactsof12HBLTareopenl12hbltisalogic"1"whichistheopposite(inverted)ofwhatone
wouldexpectwouldhappen.
WhydoesGEuseinvertedlogic?It'sapoorman'smethodofsomethingcalled"contactsupervision."What's
contactsupervision?It'samethodwherebythecontrolsystemmonitorsdiscreteinputcircuitstoensureawire
inthecircuithasnotcomeloose,orhasnotbeencut/damaged.Mostcontactsupervisioncircuitsuse"endof
line"resistorsplacedacrossthephysicalswitchcontactterminalsandthecontrolsystemisalwayscheckingto
seeifthereiscurrentflowinginthecircuitwhetherornottheswitchcontactsareopenorclosed.More
currentflowswhentheswitchcontactsareclosed,andonlyasmallamountofcurrentflowswhentheswitch
contactsareopen,andwhennocurrentisflowingthecontrolsystemalarmstoalerttheoperatortoabad
circuit/wiring.
GEdecideddecadesagotostandardizeoncircuitsthatwereclosedundernormaloperatingcircumstances,and
openedtoalarmortriptheturbine.Todetectaclosedcontact,thecircuithastobeintact(thewiringhastobe
good;theterminationshavetobegood)inorderforcurrenttoflowthat'showthecontrolsystemdetects
closedcontacts.Opencontactsresultinnocurrentflow.
Let'ssaytheoverspeedboltlimitswitchcontactswereconfiguredtoclosewhentheoverspeedboltactuated
(becauseofaturbineoverspeed).And,let'ssaythatoneofthewiresofthatcircuithadcomeloosefromits
crimpandhadfallenawayfromtheterminal.Iftheturbineoverspedandtheboltlimitswitchcontactsclosed
thecontrolsystemwouldneverdetectthecontacthadclosedbecauseofthedisconnectedwire.Nocurrent
wouldflowinthecircuitwhentheoverspeedboltcontactsclosed,sothecontrolsystemwouldneverknowthe
contactshadclosed.NOTgood.
Now,let'ssaytheoverspeedboltlimitswitchcontactswereconfiguredtoopenwhentheoverspeedbolt
actuated.Undernormalcircumstances,whentheoverspeedboltlimitswitchcontactswereclosedcurrentis
alwaysflowinginthecircuitandtheturbinethinkseverythingisjustfine.And,let'ssaytheturbineisrunning
justfineat73.4%ofratedload,andsuddenlyoneofthewiresinthatcircuitvibratedloosefromitscrimpand
becamedisconnected(itdoesn'thavetobeasuddendisconnectionitjustsoundsbettertosay"suddenly"...).
Eventhoughtheoverspeedboltlimitswitchcontactsarestillclosed(therewasnooverspeed),becausethe
circuitisnowopenthereisnocurrentflowingjustlikeiftheswitchcontactshadopened.Ifthecontrol
systeminterpretsnocurrentflowasbadthenitcantakeappropriateaction,alarmand/ortrip.Inthisway,the
operator,andthetechnician,areawareofabadcircuitcouldbeafailedswitch,justaseasilyasaloosewire,
butthecircuitisnotintactandthat'snotagoodconditionunderanycircumstances.
So,GE'sanswertoensuringthatcircuitsareingoodcondition(beforetherewasevencontactsupervision
availableinanyprogrammablecontrolsystem)wasto"invert"theinput.Inthisway,thesignalgoestoalogic
"1"whentheexternalcircuitisopen(nocurrentflowing).Thesignalnamesaregenerallychosentoindicate
whenthereisaproblem(alarmortrip),andthismatchestheinversionphilosophyalogic"1"whenthe
externalcircuitisopen.
Thisisbigone:inversionmasking.Lotsofpeoplemyselfincludedforyearsusedtosayitwasdonetobe
"failsafe."That'sonewaytothinkofit(notagoodwayinmyopinion,becauseitdoesn'treallydescribehow
orwhyit'sjustaquickanswerthatsoundsgood).
Now,somepeoplewillsay,"Welliftheturbinealarmsortripseverytimeawirecomesloose,that'snotvery
reliable!"And,theywouldberight.Wiresshouldnotcomeloose,buttheydo.Switchesshouldnotfail,but
theydo.So,GE'sanswertothatwastouseredundantswitches.It'snotlikelythattwowireswillcomelooseat
thesametime,ortwoswitcheswillfailatthesametime.But,ifeitherdidhappen,thenthat'scertainlya
conditionthatshouldberesolved.But,ifawirecomeslooseoraswitchcontactfailsinoneoftworedundant
circuitsandthelogic(applicationcode)requirestwoopencircuitstoalarmortriptheturbineonaseriousfault
thentheturbinewon'ttrip.GEalsowrotelogictoalerttheoperator/techniciantoa"disagreement"between
redundantdiscreteinputssotheproblemcouldbeinvestigatedandresolved.
So,it'saboutreliability.Makingsurethatcircuitsandswitchcontactsareserviceableandcanandwillalarmor
triponserioustrouble.Inversionmaskingissomethingthatgenerallytakessometimeto"absorb"and
comprehend,butonceoneinternalizestheconceptandthepracticeitssomethingthathelpsunderstandand
improvelotsofotheraspectsofcontrolandautomation.And,canhelpexplainalotofnuisancealarmsand
tripsonothersystemswhereastandardwasn'tadoptedandfollowed(andithappensaLOTinmanycontrol
systems!).
RestatingthesentenceforL3STCK1:
"WhentheL.O.TankTemperatureISnormalANDwhentheflamedetectorsAREinareadytostart
conditionANDwhenOFFmodeisNOTselectedANDwhentheturbineshaftISatzerospeed(at
rest)ANDwhenthereisNOTaTripOilpressureproblemANDwhenthemechanicaloverspeedboltlimit
switchisNOTdeactuatedTHENL3STCK1willbealogic"1"."
ThatshouldtakecareofL3STCK1.
Onemorecommentaboutl2hbltitdoesn'ttriptheturbine.ThislogicsignaldoesNOT(andSHOULDNOT)
triptheturbine.It'ssimplyalimitswitchthatindicateswhenthemechanicaloverspeedbolthasbeenactuated
(whichdeactuatesthelimitswitch).Themechanicaloverspeedboltwill"dump"TripOilpressurewhichis
whattripstheturbine.Thelimitswitchjustsays,"ThemechanicaloverspeedboltisNOTactuated,"or,"The
mechanicaloverspeedboltisintheRESETposition,readytoindicatewhenthebolthasbeenactuated."
Whichisthepositionthemechanicaloverspeedboltneedstobeintostarttheturbine.
Whyshouldn'tthislimitswitchbeusedtotriptheturbineintheSpeedtronicturbinecontrolpanel?Because,
it'sasinglelimitswitchthere'snoredundancy.Ifitfails,vibratesloose,orawireisdisconnected,thenifthis
inputisusedtotriptheturbineitwilltriptheturbine.It'sextremelyrarethatasinglediscreteinputwillbe
usedtotriptheturbineextremelyrare.Itreducesreliability(usingasingleswitch).Theonlypurposeofthis
switchistoindicatetheoverspeedbolthasbeenactuatedor,thatishasnot,asit'sbeingusedintheL3STCK1
rung.
Now,havewesatisfiedallyourqueriesaboutrelaysandlockoutsandsuch?
DoyouwanttospendanymoretimeonL3STCK1beforeproceedingtoL3STCK2?Ifnot,let'scontinue.
Doyouhaveanyquestionsaboutinversionmasking?(Youcanhavequestionsaboutitlater,too.Butifyou
havethemnow,let'strytoanswerthemnow.It'saveryimportantconcept,andit'skeytotroubleshootingand
understandingGEturbinecontrolsystemsatleastthedigitalones.)
Letmeknowifyou'reokaywithwhatwe'redoinghere.Isthereawaytomakeiteasier?Orbetter?
By Neo on 15 May, 2014 - 9:16 am

CSA,
Verygladtoreceiveyourresponse.Iappreciateyourpatientanddetailedreply.
Ihavebeenenjoyingthisjourneywithyouasyourcommentisalwaysenlighteningandhelpful.
Youareaverypatientandexcellentteacherindeed.
Youaskedmewhetheriamokaywithwhatwearedoing,andmyanswerisyes,certainly.
Andyouaskedmeifthereisawaytomakethingstomakethingseasier.Ithinkishoulddosomeadjustments
tomakethisjourneyeasierforyou.
1)Ithinkishouldfocusonthemainline,likepresentishouldfocusonL4S.Ishouldsetsomequestionsthat
arenotimportantatpresentaside,aswewillhaveopportunitytodiscussthosequestionslatter(Iwish:))
2)Ifyourcommentwannatocovereverysideofasignal,itwilltakealotoftimeandeffortofyou,andithink
itwilldisturbyourdaywork.Inordertoavoidthissituation,ithinkitwillbebetterifyoujustcommentthe
importantinformationishouldknowatthispresent.
3)Wecouldkeepintoucheveryday,butjustexaminenomorethanonerung.Andiwillsplitmyresponsemy
replyinseveralsection,andifyouarebusy,youcanjustreplyoneofthem,andcontinuenexttime.
Ingeneral,Ithinkthisjourneyisvaryexciting,butitisdifficulttostart,butithinkitwillbeeasierifwe
continue.
Andthanksagainforwhatyouhavedoneasiandthisforumdon'tpay:)
1)AstoL3STCK1,Imadeaprettymistakeaboutl26qn.
Ithoughtthatthetoolboxdescriptionreferstothelogic1situation.
l26qn=Lubeoiltanktemperaturelow.
l26qnL3STCK1
||......()
Soithinkwhenlubeoiltemperatureislowerthansetpoint,itwillbelogic1.
2)Idohavequestionsaboutinversionmasking,likewhenweshoulduseinversionmasking.Whyl26qnisnot
inversedwhenl12hblthastobeinverted???Doesitrelatedtothetypeofrelay,NCorNO.Howithelpsusto
readapplicationcode.
Ithinktakeexampleswouldmakethingseasiertounderstand.
Ithinkweshouldkeeponmoving,andi'lljustwritedowntherungandexamineitnexttime.
L86CBL4YL3BHSTCKL30CC_STCKl33cl1l45fp1l27f
|/||||||/||/||/||/|()
||
||
true
L86CB=Surgeprotectiontroublestartuplockout;
L3BHSTCK=CompoperatinglimitBHstartcheckpermlogic;
L30CC_STCK=FireprotectiontroubleGTstartinhibited;
l33cl1=Fireprotectionaux/turb/laodcomptCO2locked;
l45fp1=Fireprotectionaux/turb/laodcomptfirepredetec;
l27f=Fireprotectiontriprelayundervoltage;
Bestregards
Neo
By CSA on 16 May, 2014 - 11:56 am

Neo,
>1)Ithinkishouldfocusonthemain
>line,likepresentishouldfocusonL4S.
>Ishouldsetsomequestionsthatarenot
>importantatpresentaside,aswewill
>haveopportunitytodiscussthose
>questionslatter(Iwish:))
Ifyouhavequestions,let'strytoanswerthem.Ifweneedtocomebacktothemlater,wecan.Idobelieve,
though,thatthemorewecontinuethemorethingswillbecomeclearerbut,ifthequestionsarepreventingyou
fromunderstandingsomethinglet'strytoanswerthem.
>2)Ifyourcommentwannatocoverevery
>sideofasignal,itwilltakealotof
>timeandeffortofyou,andithinkit
>willdisturbyourdaywork.Inorderto
>avoidthissituation,ithinkitwillbe
>betterifyoujustcommenttheimportant
>informationishouldknowatthis
>present.
Ithinktheimportantthingtogetoutofthisexerciseishowto"read"signalnamesandlogic(rungs).DONOT
trustthelongnamedescriptionfromToolboxjustaswithl26qn.Whenyouwrotethesentencefortherung,it
doesn'tmakesensetostarttheturbinewithlowlubeoiltanktemperature.You'resaying,"IfIcan'ttrustthe
longnamedescriptioninToolbox,whatcanItrust?"Well,youhavetoanalyzetheinformationinfrontofyou,
anduseanyotherresourcesyouhavetomakesenseofthesituation.
Forexample,ifyouwenttotheVCRCinputwhere26QN1isconnected,youwouldseetheinputisNOT
inverted(it's"Normal").And,ifyouwenttotheDeviceSummarydocument,whichliststhesetpointsformost
ofthedevicesprovidedwiththeturbineandauxiliaries(but,unfortunately,notallofthem....)youwouldsee
theswitchis(likely)setfor60degF(approx16degC)INCreasing,andtheNO(NormallyOpen)contactsof
thedevicearetobeusedfortheindication.ThismeansthatastheL.O.TankTemperatureincreasesabove
approximately60degFtheNOcontactswillclose.(TheDeviceSummaryshouldalsolisttheDECreasing
setpoint,somethingaround50degF,foradeadbandontheswitchofapprox.10degF.Thismeansthatonce
theL.O.Tanktemperaturehadrisenabove60degF,closingtheNOcontacts,thattheL.O.Tanktemperature
wouldhavetodropbelowapprox.50degFtocausetheNOcontactstoopen,or"reset"asmanypeopleliketo
saymeaninggobacktothe"unactuated"state.)
So,knowingthattheinputisNOTinverted,andthattheswitchcontactsareclosedaboveapproximately60
degF,onecandeducethatthelongnamedescriptionofthesignaliswrongthatis,itdoesNOTdescribewhen
thesignalnameisgoingtobealogic"1".
Youaskedwhythisinputisnotinverted,butl12hbltisinverted.Theinputcouldhavebeeninverted,andit
wouldworkjustfine.Ofcourse,thesignalnamewouldbeexactlyoppositeofwhatitshouldbebecauseit
wouldbealogic"1"whentheL.O.Tanktemperaturewaslessthannormal.Sometimesthesethings,even
thoughtheycouldgoonewayortheother(withasignalnamechangetomakeiteasier)arejustcontinuedfor
decadesandthisisoneofthem.
IbelieveifyouwillposttheL26QN_ALMrung(I'mguessingatthealarmsignalname;itwilllikelybe
differentunlessIamveryluckytoday)youwillseeitlookssomethinglikethis:
l26qn L26QN_ALM
-----|/|-------------( )
Thisrung,ifitmatchesyourapplicationcode,isaviolationofanotheroneofGE'scontrolphilosophies:That
thelogicthatdrivesanalarmshouldbealogic"1"tomakethealarmactive.Dotwowrongsmakearight?In
thiscase,itseemsto.;)Welearntolivewithit.
Aformercolleagueofmineusedtosay,"Thisain'trocketscience."And,it'snot.Doesithavetobeexact?No.
Shoulditbeexact?Itwouldcertainlyhelp.Isitcriticaltoproperoperationoftheunit?No.Wouldittake
muchtofixit?Nobut,atGEthereisnoonewhoreallyunderstandsallofstuffandisinchargeorreviewing
ittobesureit'saccurateandconsistentandsolongstandingmistakeslikethisjustkeepgettingrepeated,
decadeafterdecade.Evenifsomeonerealizesitshouldbechanged,thatpersonlikelyisafraidtodoso
becausemostofthepeoplewritingtheapplicationcodehavelittleornohandson,fieldexperience.
Andyet,someonehaschangedthelongnamesignaldescriptionbecausefordecadesitwasalways"Lube
TankTemperatureNormal",andintheapplicationcodeatyoursiteit's"Lubeoiltanktemperaturelow"
(whichisthealarmedconditionoftheinputtheonethatwillpreventaREADYTOSTART....).Again,the
peoplewhoreallydounderstandthisstuffatGErealizeit'snotcritical.It'salwaysbeenthatway.Shoulditbe
changed?Probably.But,"Ifitain'tbroke,don'tfixit."Thecircuithasworkedfordecadesevenifit'snot
exactlyasperphilosophy,soitjustgetsneglected.
Anyway,Ican'treadthenextrungasyouwroteityouclickedon'SubmitPost'withamistakeinthehtmltags
(youused/preBEFOREandafterthetext;itneedstobeprebefore,and/preafter).Pleasecorrectthetextand
resubmit.YoualsoforgottoputL4Y'slongnamedescriptioninthelistofsignalsintherung.
OneofthereasonsI'mspendingalittlemoretimeonsignaldescriptionsisthatalotofotherpeoplereadthese
posts,anditmighthelpthemtounderstandGEdesignheavydutygasturbineoperationandcontrol
philosophyifthereisalittlemoredetail.So,pleasebepatientwithme.
By Neo on 17 May, 2014 - 9:12 am

CSA,
Yousaid"Ithinktheimportantthingtogetoutofthisexerciseishowto"read"signalnamesand
logic(rungs)."
Ok,iwillkeepthisinmymind.
I'mstillconfusedabouttheconceptofinversionmasking.
Yousaid"So,GE'sanswertoensuringthatcircuitsareingoodcondition(beforetherewaseven
contactsupervisionavailableinanyprogrammablecontrolsystem)wasto"invert"theinput."
Justtakethesignall26qnforexample,thetemperatureswitchcontactisclosed(logic1)undernormal
operatingcircumstances,andwhenthecircuitfails,l26qnwillturntologic0.So,ithas
thefunctionofcircuitsupervision.
Sowhyinversionmasking.
Asthesametosignall12hblt,ifthecircuitfails,itwillbecomelogic0.
Againwhyshouldthel12hbltbeinverted.
"GEdecideddecadesagotostandardizeoncircuitsthatwereclosedundernormaloperating
circumstances,andopenedtoalarmortriptheturbine."
Doesthatmeanlogic1referstonormaloperatingcircumstance,andlogic0toalarmortriptheturbine.
"Forexample,ifyouwenttotheVCRCinputwhere26QN1isconnected,youwouldseetheinputisNOT
inverted(it's"Normal").
Howisonesignalinverted,inhardwarewayorsoftwareway.Ifitisinsoftwareone,asignalcanbeinverted
likethis:
prestate poststate
( )---------|/|-------( )
"Youaskedwhythisinputisnotinverted,butl12hbltisinverted.Theinputcouldhavebeeninverted,andit
wouldworkjustfine.Ofcourse,the"signalname"wouldbeexactlyoppositeofwhatitshouldbebecauseit
wouldbealogic"1"whentheL.O.Tanktemperaturewaslessthannormal.Sometimesthesethings,even
thoughtheycouldgoonewayortheother(withasignalnamechangetomakeiteasier)arejustcontinuedfor
decadesandthisisoneofthem."
Iamconfusedabout"sigalname",thenameofsignal?Ifdoesmeannameofsignal,ithinkwhetherornotthe
signalisinverted,ishasnoeffectonsignalname,justaname.
So,thisconfusesme.
Inonereply,itypedonerungbelow:
L45FP_STCK L3STCK
---.....------|/|---------()
ThecontactsenseofL45FP_STCKistypedwrong,Whichshouldbe:
L45FP_STCK L3STCK
---.....------||---------()
Youfoundthatmistake,anddeducedthateitheranincorrectlychosennameorthecontactsenseistyped
wrong.
Howdiddeduceit?
Andyousaidthesignalnameindicatesthissignalwillbealogic"1"whenthefireprotectioncircuitisreadyto
detectafire.
Howdidyouknowitisalogic"1"notalogic"0"whenthefireprotectioncircuitisreadytodetectafire?
Thosearethequestionsbothermealot,andmaybeitisgoodtodealthosequestionsrightnow.Andihopeit
willnotbotheryoutoomuchassomeofthemaresilly.
L86CB L4Y L3BHSTCK L30CC_STCK l33cl1 l45fp1 l27f

L2STCK2
--------|/|-------||---------||---------|/|------|/|-------|/|-----|/|--------
( )
| |
| true |
--------------------
Iwillexaminethisrungnexttime.
Bestregards
Neo
By CSA on 18 May, 2014 - 12:46 pm

Neo,
Itwouldseemafteryoumostrecentpostthatinversionmaskingisbecomingclearertoyou.Yes;theexact
purposeofinversionmaskingistomakethelogicsignalassociatedwithadiscreteinput(DI)alogic"1"when
thecontactorthecircuitisopen.And,ifthesignalnameischosencorrectlyitwilldescribethecondition
whenthecontactisopen.
And,yes,youarecorrectl26qnisaviolationofthatphilosophyandcouldhavebeenconfiguredtobe
invertedIFthesignalnamehadbeenchosentobesomethinglike'l26ql'(except,thatsignalnameisusedon
manyolderturbines....soitwouldhavehadtobesomethingsimilar,butdifferent).AndthentheL3STCK1
rungcouldhavebeenwritten:
l26ql L3STCK1
------|/|------ - - - ----( )
andtheLowL.O.TankTempLowalarmrungcouldhavebeenwritten:
l26ql L26QN_ALM
------| |-----------------( )
Ipresumeyouused'View|Reports...|I/OReport'tofindtheinformationyoupostedwiththeinversionmask
andthedescription.?.?.?(ThoughIdon'tknowwherethatdescriptioncamefrominToolbox....it'sveryodd,
indeed.But,strangerthingshavebeencomingoutofBelfortandHyderabadmuchstrangerthings.)
FortheMarkVIandMarkVIe,thatreportworksfinebecauseitactuallylooksateveryI/Opointandcorrectly
reportstheconfiguration(inversionmask;signalscaling;etc.).ButitdoesNOTworkfortheMarkV.The
I/OReportis>>>NOT<<<onlylooksattheactualI/OConfigurationwhenthereportisfirstcreatedand
afterthat,ifanychangesaremadetoI/OConfigurationorlocationaconscientiouspersonhastomanuallyedit
TC2KREPT.TXTtomaketheappropriatechanges.WhiletheMarkVI/OReportisprobably97.9%correct,it
alwaysseemlikewhenit'slateonaSaturdaynightandsomeoneisrelyingonitforproperinformationit's
usuallynotrightfortheI/Opointbeingworkedon.(Sorry;IneededtodothatforthepeoplewithMarkVs
readingthis.)
ItshouldalsobenotedthataninputisNOTconfiguredtobeinvertedornormalviathisreport.Itisdoneatthe
I/Ocardlevel(usuallyaVCRCforaMarkVI).
But,youdoseemtobegettingthecorrectideahere.WhenyoufindwhatyoubelievetobeaviolationofGE's
controlphilosophy,shouldyoumaketheappropriatemodificationstomakeitcomplywithGE'scontrol
philosophy?No.NO.NO.Emphatically,NO!YouuseGE'sfallbackcontrolphilosophy:"Ifit'snotbroken,
don'tbreakit."
I'mstillconfusedbythe'true'"element"inparallelwithl33cl1andl45fp1.Isitanormallyopencontactthatis
inparallelwiththetwoDIs?Ifso,it'sareallySADandshamefulmethodof"deleting"thetwocontactsfrom
thestartcheckrung.Perhapsitwasdonetemporarily(I'mtryingtogivethecommissioningengineerthe
benefitofthedoubthere),butit'sstillvery,verysad.IwonderwhatthealarmrungsforthoseDIslooklike???
Aretherenormallyopen'false'sinthoserungs,ornormallyclosed'true's?Dotherungsevenexist?
Anyway,youdidn'twriteyoursentencefortherung....
AsforhowIdeduced(makesitsoundverysleuthlike!)theerrorsinsignalnamingorcontactsense,itisreally
justexperienceandluckyguessing.AverywellrespectedpersonwhoretiredfromGEmanyyearsagosaidat
hisretirementdinnerinresponsetoquestionsabouthowhe'dbeensosuccessful,"TheharderIworked,the
luckierIwas.And,I'dratherbeluckythangood."That'skindofhowIfeelonecanbegoodandunlucky,and
thatcanbefatal.I'dratherbelucky,andbethoughtgoodandthewaytobeluckieristoworkhard,study
hard,reflection,andconstantreviewandreflection(kindoflikecontinualprocessimprovementinmany
manufacturing/qualityprograms.Ithinkreflectionisoneofthemostoftenoverlookedqualitiesofsuccessin
theoldedays,peopleusedtokeepjournals.Ifyou'veeverreadthejournalsoffamouspeople(whowere
consideredsuccessfulandpreeminentintheirfield)thosejournalsdescribelotsofmistakes,reflection,
successes,andreflection,andponderment,andreflection.Aquietplacetoreflect,toconsiderwhatwasand
whatcouldhavebeenandwhatcouldbeisreallyinspiring,invigoratingandcriticaltogettinglucky
(improvementand"goodness").
So,again,asI'vesuggestedinthepast:Continuetolookatthispost,andothers,andcontinuetodevelopyour
understandingbasedonyourexperienceworkingwiththeequipment.Yourunderstandingwillgrow,
exponentiallyatfirst(thoughitseemsdifficult),andtherespectofyourpeersandsupervisorswillalsogrow.
Themistakethathappensinalotofplacesisthatwhensomeonegetstechnicallygoodintheirjobtheyget
promotedandtheydon'tmentorpeoplewhoarecomingupbehindthemtopassalongthebenefitoftheir
knowledge.Toomanypeoplethink,"WhyshouldImakeiteasyforthem;IhadtostruggletogettowhereI
wasnoonemadeiteasyforme.Imadealotofmistakesalongtheway,andIlearnedfromthosemistakes.
Letothersdothesame."
I'mpayingbackwhatIwasfortunatetohavebeenthebeneficiaryofdecadesago.Pleasedothesame,Neo.
Maybenotthisparticularfield,butpayitback.
Itreallyisagoodfeeling.
So,writeyoursentenceandaskyourquestions.We'vestillgotquiteadistancetocoverhere.
By Neo on 18 May, 2014 - 8:13 pm

CSA,
"Themistakethathappensinalotofplacesisthatwhensomeonegetstechnicallygoodintheirjobtheyget
promotedandtheydon'tmentorpeoplewhoarecomingupbehindthemtopassalongthebenefitoftheir
knowledge.Toomanypeoplethink,"WhyshouldImakeiteasyforthem;IhadtostruggletogettowhereI
wasnoonemadeiteasyforme.Imadealotofmistakesalongtheway,andIlearnedfromthosemistakes.
Letothersdothesame."
Iappreciatewhatyousaidabove,andyouareagoodteachernotonlytechnically.
Fromthispoint,iamlucky:)
Lasttimeididn'twritetherung,becauseiamafraiditwilldisturbyourdayworkiftoomuchthingsyouhave
todealwith.
I'lltrytowritesentenceinseveralhours,andbepatientwithme.:)
Bestregards.
Neo
By Neo on 19 May, 2014 - 4:24 am

CSA,
HerecomsestheL3STCK2:
L86CB L4Y L3BHSTCK L30CC_STCK l33cl1 l45fp1 l27f

L3STCK2
--------|/|-------||---------||---------|/|------|/|-------|/|-----|/|--------
( )
| |
| true |
--------------------
L86CBisalogicsignalthatwarnstheoperatoraproblemwiththesurgeprotectionsystem:
1.IGV2.CompressorBleedValve
L86CBA L86CB
--------||----------|------( )
|
L86TV |
--------||----------|
|
L30CBC_AL |
--------||----------|
L4 L14HS L520ONLINE L20CBX L20CBZ
-------||---------||---------||------------( )---------------(T)
l33cblO L86CBZ L20CBA

--------||--------|------||-------( )
l33cb2O |
--------||--------|
L20CBZisalogic1whenthegasturbineisundernormalcondition(TNH>97%ratedspeed),andithinkitisa
commandtoclosecompressorbleedvalvewhenitislogic1.AndifthevalveisstillopenwhenL20CBZis
logic1,thenL20CBAislogic1.
ThesametoL86CBC_AL.Whenthecompressorbleedvalveisrequiredtoopen(L20CBZislogic0),butitis
stillclosed,thenL86CBC_ALMislogic1.
Ideduceitfromtheknowledgethatthecompressorbleedsuctionworkswhenthegasturbineisunderpart
loadtopreventthecompressorfromsurge.
Ifiknewnothingaboutsurgeprotection,howcaniknowwhatdoesitmeanwhenl33cb1oislogic1,whetherit
refersthevalveisopenorclosed?OrwhenL86CBislogic1,itisacommandtoclosethevalveoropenthe
valve?
Fromsignalnameanddescriptionformtoolbox(butsometimesitismisleading)?
AstoL86TV,itisalittleweird.
L3IGVF2 L14HA L83BW L86TV

-------||--------||---------|/|---------( )
ItmeanswhentheTNH>50%ratedspeed,csgv>35deg,andL83BWislogic0,thenL86TVislogic1.
IamconfusedaboutL86TV,whatdeositmeanwhenitislogic1.Andisitrelatedtosurgeprotection.Besides,
wehadcheckedL3IGVF2inL3IGVFLTinL2STCK0.
L3BHSTCKisalogic1whenIBHsystemisintrouble.
L3BHF1 L3BHF3 L3BHSTCK

----------|/|-----------|/|-----------( )
L3BHF1(bleedheatfeedbacktroublealarm)isnotdifficulttounderstand,foritisjustlikecommandnot
following.
L3BHF3isalittlecomplicated.
L3CPRAH L3BHF3
--------------||----------------|------( )
|
L3BHF1 L3BHF2 L14HS |
--------||-------||--------||---|
|
LCPRERR |
--------------||----------------|
Thelockoutlogicisleftout.
L3CPRAH=Ambientpressureindicationhighlogic.
LCPRERR=Compressoroperatinglimitcontrolfalut.
SowhentheinletpressureishigherthanthesetpointORL3BHF1andL3BHF2islogiciwhenTHN>97%
ratedspeedORCPRisreachingitsmaxlimit,thentheL3BHF3islogic1.
CanyouexplainTheL3BHF3forme,amconfusedaboutit?HowareL3CPRAHandLCPERRarerelatedto
IBH?
L30CC_STCKislogic1whenthereisaprobleminfireprotectionsystem.
l27fisalogic1whenitsvoltageislow.
I
Inconclusion,whensurgeprotectionsystemisnormal,ANDIBHsystemisnormal,ANDfireprotecion
triprelayisnotundervoltage,Andfireprotectionsystemisnormal,thentheL3STCK2willbealogic1.
Bestregards.
Neo
By CSA on 21 May, 2014 - 12:45 pm

Neo,
Ithinktherearesomeerrorsintherungsandtheexplanations.Pleasereviewthemandletusknowwhatyou
find.
I'llgetbackwhenIcandevotetherequiredamountoftimeandtheerrorshavebeencorrected.
Thanks!
By Neo on 23 May, 2014 - 7:28 am

>CSA,
>
>HerecomestheL3STCK2:
> L86CB L4Y L3BHSTCK L30CC_STCK l33cl1 l45fp1 l27f
L3STCK2
>--------|/|-------||---------||---------|/|------|/|-------|/|-----|/|-------
-( )
> | |
> | true |
> --------------------
>L86CB=Surgeprotectiontroublestartuplockout;
>L3BHSTCK=CompoperatinglimitBHstartcheckpermlogic;
>L30CC_STCK=FireprotectiontroubleGTstartinhibited;
>l33cl1=Fireprotectionaux/turb/loadcomptCO2locked;
>l45fp1=Fireprotectionaux/turb/loadcomptfirepredetec;
>l27f=Fireprotectiontriprelayundervoltage;
>
>
>L86CBisalogicsignalthatwarnstheoperatorthereisaproblemwiththesurgeprotectionsystem:
>1.IGV2.CompressorBleedValve
> L86CBA L86CB

>--------||----------|------( )
> |
> L86TV |
>--------||----------|
> |
> L30CBC_AL |
>--------||----------|
L86CBA=Coolsealaircompbleed/valvepostroubleclose(whatiscoolsealair)
L86TV=Inletguidecontroltroubles
L30CBC_AL=Compbldvalvesfailuretoopen
> L4 L14HS L520ONLINE L20CBX L20CBZ

>-------||---------||---------||------------()---------------(T)
(PS:I made some simplifications.)
L520ONLINE=Unitonline(confusing)
L20CBX=CoolsealairAircompbleed3wayvalvectrlsignal
l33cblo L86CBZ L20CBA
--------||-------- |------||-------( )
l33cb2o |
--------||---------|
l33cb1o=coolsealaircompbleedvalve#1posswitchopen
l33cb2o=coolsealaircompbleedvalve#2posswitchopen
L20CBZisalogic1whenthegasturbineisundernormalcondition(TNH>97%ratedspeed),andithinkitis
acommandtoclosecompressorbleedvalvewhenitislogic1.AndifthevalveisstillopenwhenL20CBZis
logic1,thenL20CBAislogic1.Whenthecompressorbleedvalveisrequiredtoopen(L20CBZislogic0)
whileitisstillclosed,thenL86CBC_ALMislogic1.
Ideduceitfromtheknowledgethatthecompressorbleedsuctionworkswhenthegasturbineisunderpart
load.Anditisonemeanstopreventthecompressorfromsurge.Ifiknewnothingaboutsurgeprotection,how
caniknowwhatdoesitmeanwhenl33cb1oislogic1,whetheritreferstothevalveisopenorclosed?Asto
L86TV,itisalittleweird.
> L3IGVF2 L14HA L83BW L86TV

>-------||--------||---------|/|---------( )
L3IGVF2=IGVVanesopenalarm
L83BW=waterwashofflinewashingstartcheck
L14HA=HPacceleratingspeedsignal
ItmeanswhenTNHisabove50%ratedspeed,csgv>35deg,andL83BWislogic0,thenL86TVislogic1.I
amconfusedaboutL86TV,whatoesitmeanwhenitislogic1.Andhowisitrelatedtosurgeprotection.
Besides,wehadcheckedL3IGVF2inL3IGVFLTinL2STCK0.
>
>L3BHSTCKisalogic1whenIBHsystemisintrouble.
> L3BHF1 L3BHF3 L3BHSTCK

>----------|/|-----------|/|-----------( )
L3BHF1(bleedheatfeedbacktroublealarm)isnotdifficulttounderstand,foritisjustlikecommandnot
following.
L3BHF3isalittlecomplicated.
> L3CPRAH L3BHF3

>--------------||----------------|------()
> |
> L3BHF1 L3BHF2 L14HS |
>--------||-------||--------||---|
> |
> LCPRERR |
>--------------||----------------|
>Thelockoutlogicisleftout.
>L3CPRAH=Ambientpressureindicationhighlogic.
>LCPRERR=Compressoroperatinglimitcontrolatmaxerror.
>SowhentheinletpressureishigherthanthesetpointORL3BHF1
>andL3BHF2islogic1whenTHN>97%ratedspeedORCPRisreaching
>itsmaxlimit,thentheL3BHF3islogic1.CanyouexplainL3BHF3for
>me,Iamconfusedaboutit?HowareL3CPRAHandLCPERRrelatedtoIBH?
>
>L30CC_STCKislogic1whenthereisaprobleminfireprotectionsystem.
>l27fisalogic1whenitsvoltageislow.
>I
>Inconclusion,whensurgeprotectionsystemisnormal,ANDIBHsystemisnormal,ANDfire
protection
>triprelayisnotundervoltage,Andfireprotectionsystemisnormal,thentheL3STCK2willbealogic1.
Bestregards.
Neo
By CSA on 27 May, 2014 - 11:56 am
Neo,
Idon'tseemuchinthewayofcorrection;the'ltrue'stilldoesn'tseemtohaveacontact(NOorNC).L4Yisnot
listed.
TheaxialcompressorbleedvalvesMUSTbeopenpriortoastartofthegasturbine,otherwiseit'slikelythe
unitwillsufferextremelyhighvibrationsasaresultofcompressorproblemsduringstartingwhichcouldeven
resultindamagetoaxialcompressorblading(stationaryandrotating).Theconditionthatcanoccurduring
startingandshutdownoftheaxialcompressoriscommonlyreferredtoassurgeand/orstallandoccurswhen
theairflowthroughthecompressordoesn'tmoveasitshouldasifit'sblocked.Thisistrueofmostaxial
compressors,notjustthoseofGEdesignheavydutygasturbines.
Thelimitswitchesonthebleedvalvesaredesignedtobeactuatedwhenthebleedvalvesisfullyopen.When
thebleedvalvesarecommandedtoopenthereisatimer(usually11seconds)thatstarts,andifbothbleed
valvesarenotfullyopenbytheendofthetimerthentheturbineistrippedandastartispreventeduntilthe
conditioniscorrectedandaMasterResetisinitiated.(Thesameistrueofclosingthecompressorbleed
valvesthereisatimerthatstartswhentheyarecommandedtocloseandifneitherofthemmovesfromthe
openpositionthenthereisanalarm,andonmostDLNcombustorequippedunitsthereisalsoatrip(which
requiresaMasterResettoclearoncetheconditionhasbeenresolved).Somenewerunits(especiallytheF
classturbines)havelimitswitchesforBOTHtheopenandtheclosedpositions.
Iwasgoingtowritethatthesignalnamedescriptionsaregettingverystrange,butthenIrememberedthisunit
isaFrame6BwhichmeanstheBelfortBunchhastheirbrandalloverthe"logic."'Coolsealair'probablyrefers
to'CoolingandSealingAir'whichistheP&IDthattheaxialcompressorbleedvalvesareshownon.But,the
axialcompressorbleedvalveshavelittle(ifanything)todowiththecoolingandsealingairsystem.Once
again,insteadofclarifyingthings,Belfortisactivelymakingthemlessclearandmoreconfusingneedlessly.
"Ifit'snotbroke,breakit,"seemstobetheirdrivingphilosophy.Or,probably,moretruly,"Ifit'sclear,de
clarifyit;ifit'ssimple,complicateit."
L4Yisatimerthatisalogic"1"onesecondAFTERL4isNOTalogic"1"(an"inverse"timer).It'susedhere
justtoprovideatleast1secondafteratripduringstartingbeforeanotherstartmightbeinitiatedanditalso
preventsastartifL4isalreadyalogic"1".
TheL3BHSTCKlogicisalsosomethingwhichseemstohavebeen"improved"bytheBelfortBunch.An
excellentexampleofthisisconfusioncreatedbytheL3BHF3rungyouareexperiencing.Idon'tbelievethe
96APntransmittersareusedforIBH(IbelievetheyareusedtotriggertheL3CPRAHlogic),andL3CPRERR
usedtobeusedtodetectaproblemwiththeCPRcalculationwhichisn'tdirectlyrelatedtoIBH,eitherjustto
thecalculationoftheaxialcompressorpressureratiowhichisusedtodetermineexhausttemperaturecontrol
limitandprotection.InletBleedHeat(IBH)isaverypoornameforthefunctionitprovidescompressor
protectionwhentheIGVsareoperatingatreducedanglessotheturbinecanoperateinPremixSteadystate
combustionmodeatlowerloadsthanwouldotherwisebepossible.So,withoutbeingabletoseethelogic
drivingbothsignals(L3CPRAHandL3CPRERR)it'snotpossibletosayforsureexactlywhatisbeing
attemptedwiththosetwoconditionsdrivingL3BHF3.Theotherparallelstring,L3BHF1andL3BHF2are
blockedfromactuatingL3BHF3below95%speedbytheL14HSlogic,so,itjustaddstothecomplicationand
muddlingoftherungandit'suseintheL3BHSTCKrung.It'sunderstandablethattheturbineshouldnotbe
startediftheambientpressuretransmittersarenotworkingproperly(theL3CPRAHfunction,Ibelieve),but
previouslytheL3CPRERRwasalsonotenabledbelow14HS(maystillbe),butthewholethingisjustamess
todecipherandmakesenseofandtrytoexplain.Sorry;Iwishitweren'tso,butthisisaperfectexampleof
Belfortthinkingandlogic.
L30CC_STCKisalmostanotherBelfortkludge,exceptthata30deviceistheANSIdevicenumberforan
alarmrelayordevicesoitalmostmakessensethatifthissignalisalogic"1"thestartcheckshouldbe
blocked.ThebadpartaboutthissignalnameistheSTCKattheendwhichconflictswiththewhole
L3STCKnnamingconventionbut,thisistheBelfortway:complicateandconfusewheneverpossible.The
concepthereisthattheturbineshouldnotbestartedifthefireprotectionsystem(usuallyaCO2systemhence
the"CC"partofthesignalname)isn'tcapableofdetectingorextinguishingafire.
Thenexttwosignals,l33cl1andl45fp1,appeartobecomingfromlockingdevicesoncompartmentfire
protectionsystemswhichwouldbealogic"1"ifeitherofthemwerepreventedfrombeingoperated,which
shouldbeastartcheckpermissive.But,someonehasseemingly(becauseit'snotclearfromyour"drawing"of
therung)putaltrue(NO)aroundthemwhicheffectivelydisablesthispartofthefireprotectionsystemlogic.
Iftherearenophysicalwiresconnectedtothediscreteinputsdrivingl33cl1andl45cp1thenthesesignals
shouldhavejustbeenremovedfromtheapplicationcode(freeingupacoupleofdiscreteinputsforpossible
usageatsomeothertime)anduncomplicatingthestartcheck"logic."But,again,thisisnotpertheBelfort
wayso,complicateandconfusedrivesthemess.
Whyl27fcouldn'tbeincorporatedintotheL30CC_STCKlogicisjust,yetAGAIN,stupefying.'Nuffsaid.
Finally,theL52ONLINElogicisaDLNrelic.Itusuallygoestoalogic"1"sometimeafterthegenerator
breakerclosesANDtheunitisabovesome"minimum"load,sometimes5MW,ANDtheaxialcompressor
bleedvalvesareclosed.It'skindofunnecessaryiftheturbinetripsoftheaxialcompressorbleedvalvesaren't
closedwhentheunitisabove14HS,butitseemstohavealifeofitsown(partofthe"ifit'snotbroke,don't
breakit"becauseit'snotunderstood,notbecauseitneedscomplicationorconfusion).
Wow!Thisrungwasdifficult;sorry.Thisiswhyit'sreallynecessarytohavepapercopiesofrungswithhand
writtennotesonthemtohelprememberwhatthesethingsarewhenonehastotrytounderstandthemandif
onehastogobacktotheminfutureyears.Tryingtofigurethisstuffoutmonthsoryearslatercanbejustas
difficultasthefiguringitoutthefirsttimesonotesarereallyhelpful,nowandinthefuture.
PLEASEmakesureyouaredrawingtherungsproperlyandcompletelyasweprogress.Wehaven'teven
finishedthestartcheckstuff,andwestillhaveallofthetrippingstufftogothrough.So,clarityandaccuracy
iscrucialtokeepingontrack.
By Neo on 28 May, 2014 - 12:09 am

CSA:
Thankyouforyourdetailedreply.
1)WehavedealtwithL4Ybefore,that'swhyididn'tlistitsdefinition.
2)Ifis'True',itisalwaysaNOcontact.
Ihavebeenoccupiedwithworkthesedays,andiwillreplytoyouassoonaspossible.Ihopeyoucancomment
onmyunderstandingandanswermyquestionsifitmeanssomething.Inthisway,iwillgetmoreinterestedin
thisjourney.
AndmynextassignmentisL3STCK3?
Bestregards.
Neo
By CSA on 28 May, 2014 - 10:49 am

Neo,
Yes;I'mbusyatthistime,too,soI'mnotdevotingasmuchtimetothisasI'dlike.
Yes;you'renextassignmentisL3STCK3.
2)I'veseensomeusagesof'ltrue'thatwereNC,notonlyNO.Itcanbeeither.Ifit'sNO,thenthecontactswill
beclosed(because'ltrue'isalwaysalogic"1");ifit'sNCthenthecontactswillbeopen.
There'salsoan'lfalse',that'salwaysalogic"0",andcanbeNOorNC.
Toyourquestions:
a)CoolingandSealingAirisairthat'sextractedfromacoupleofpointsfromtheaxialcompressorthat's
mostlyusedtocoolvariousspaces,likewheelspaces.It'salsousedtopressurizeotherareas,suchasbearing
seals,inanefforttokeeplubeoilfromleakingoutofthebearingsalongtheshaft.Formoreinformation,
pleaserefertotheCooling&SealingAirP&ID,aswellastheSystemDescriptionfortheCooling&Sealing
AirsystemintheServiceManualsprovidedwiththeturbineandauxiliaries.
Forsomereason,thecompressorbleedvalvesappearontheCooling&SealingAirP&ID,probablybecause
there'snotreallyanywhereelsetoputthem.?.?.?
b)l33cb1o&l33cb2oarelogicsignals,drivenbylimitswitchesonthecompressorbleedvalves,andtheyarea
logic"1"whenthecompressorbleedvalvesarefullyopen(the"o"attheendofthesignalnamestandsfor
"open").
ThereisanotherveryusefuldocumentprovidedwithmostGEdesignheavydutygasturbinescalledthe
DeviceSummary.Itlistsmost(butnotall)ofthefielddevicesandinstrumentsprovidedontheturbineand
auxiliariesbythepackager.IttypicallydoesNOTlistthedevicesprovidedwiththegenerator(exceptforthe
lowandlowlowL.O.pressureswitches)andexciterandgeneratorcontrols,andquiteoftenthesedaysdoes
notlistsomedevicesprovidedonskidssuppliedbysubcontractors.But,itdoeshavegoodinformationwhich
canbeveryhelpfulanduseful.It'smostusefulaspectisthatitliststhesettingsforthemajorityofthepressure
andtemperatureandlimitswitchesontheunit.
c)L86TVisweirdinthecontextshown,anditviolatestheconceptofalockoutdevicesinceithasnosealin
anddoesn'tuseaMasterResettounlatchthesignal.L83BWisalogicsignalthat'salogic"1"whenawater
washisbeingperformedusuallyanofflinewaterwash,buthasbeenusedforonlinewaterwashindication
aswell.Again,therearesomemessylogicsignalsinmanySpeedtroniccontrolpanels,andthisappearstobe
anotherone.(Ihadnoideaweweregoingtoencountersomanyonthisjourney!But,it'sprobablyjustaswell
sinceit'sajourneyofdiscoveryandonediscoversgoodthingsandbadthingsonmostjourneys,right?)
Ithinkthatcoversmostofthequestions,orarethereothersI'vemissed?
By Neo on 9 June, 2014 - 8:20 am

CSA,
Iamback:)
Iwilldomyassignmentassoonaspossible.
Neo.
By Neo on 10 June, 2014 - 10:06 pm

CSA,
Sorryforbeabsentformorethanaweek.
Inthelastrung,youexplainedthat:LCPRERRusedtobeusedtodetectaproblemwiththeCPRcalculation
whichisn'tdirectlyrelatedtoIBH,eitherjusttothecalculationoftheaxial
compressorpressureratiowhichisusedtodetermineexhausttemperaturecontrollimitandprotection.
ItseemsthatLCPRERRismorerelatedtotellwhethertheCPRisapproachingtheCprlim.
HerecomestheL3STCK3:
L4T L39VD3 L3TFLT LAUXGAS_PT L30IPFLT2 L3IPSTCK

L3STCK3
------|/|------|/|---------|/|---------|/|----------|/|--------|/|---------
( )
L4T=Masterprotectivetrip;
L39VD3=Vibrationstartinhibit;
L3TFLT=Compressordischargepressurefaultalarm;
LAUXGAS_PT=AuxgasPressorTempDetectedatMeterTube;
L30IPFLT2=IPfaultnoflowdetectedduringtransferoffaux;
L3IPSTCK=Inertpurgesystemsystemstartcheck;
IthinkL4Tisanimportantsignalname,butihavelittleknowledgeaboutit.AlliknowisthatifL4Tislogic
1,thenthegasturbinetrips.
SoithinkallsignalsthatwilltripagasturbinewillfinallygotoL4T.Andithinkthereisaconnectionbetween
L4andL4T.
L14HS L4 L14HSX
---------||--------------||-----( )
|
L14HSX L94X |
------||------|/|----
L94X=StartupcheckstopGTnormalshutdown;
L14HS=HPoperatingspeedsignal;
A>B----|
| L14HSX L3TFLT
---------| |---------||-----------( )
A=CAKCPD(35psi)
B=CPD
L14HSX=AuxiliarysignaltoL14HS
IfCPDislessthan35psiwhengasturbineisundernormaloperation(L14HSislogic1),thenL3TFLTislogic
1(indicatesthepressuretransducerisinfault?)
IwaswonderingthefunctionoftheL14HSXsignal,andcanL14HSXintheL3TFLTrungbereplacedby
L14HS?
IamconfusedwiththesignalL94X.Inthetoolbox,itsdescriptionis:StartupcheckstopGTnormalshutdown
(startuporshutdown?).Andifound94isrelatedtotrippingortripfreerelayinANSIdevicenumber.
L39VD3_GT L39VD3
--------||------------( )
|
L39VD3_GEN |
--------||-----
|
L39VD3_LG |
--------||-----
Accordingtotheaboverung,therearethreegroupsofvibrationsensorsinthisunit:oneforgasturbine,onefor
generatorandthelastoneforloadgear.Andifanyoneofthesensorgroupsisfaultyordisabled(qtyofsensors
ingroupfaultyordisabled>=1;>=(#sensors+1)/2;bothsensorsinanypairfaultyordisabled.),then
L39VD3islogic1.IreferredtotheL39VV7block,andwasconfusedaboutthedifferencewithfaultyand
disabled.WhetheravibrationsensorisfaultornotisdecidedbyHLTHn,whiledisabledornotisdecidedby
ENABLEn.
LAUXGAS_PT
LFPAG0LL LAUXGAS_PT
-------|/|------------------( )
|
LFPAG0 |
-------||-----------
|
LFTAGI false |
-------||------||---
|
CA43P2 false |
-------||------||---
LFPAG0LL=auxgassupplypressurelowlow;
LFPAG0=auxgassupplypressuredetected;
LFTAGI=auxgassupplytemperturedetected;
CA43P2=initiateP2cavityblocking;
IftheLAUXGAS_PTislogic1,thenthereisaproblemintheauxgassupplysystem.Accordingtheabove
rung,ifthepressureislowerorhigherthanthesetpoint,thenitispresumedthattheauxgassupplysystemhas
aproblem.Ithinkauxgasreferstothegasfuel,right?AndFPAGinthesignalnamestandsforsomething?
L30IPFLT2andL3IPSTCKarerelatedtopurgesystem.Astomyunderstanding,thereisaneedtopurge
beforestartagasturbineinordertoclearawaytheresidualgasfuelincombustor.
Inconclusion,ifL4Tislogic0,andthevibrationsensorsworkswell,andCPDismorethan35pisg
whenundernormaloperation,andthereisnoprobleminauxgassupplysystemandinertpurgesystem,
thenL3STCK3islogic1.
By Neo on 17 June, 2014 - 5:57 am

CSA,
Iamwaitingforyourreply:)
Bestregards!
By CSA on 17 June, 2014 - 10:00 am

Neo,
Sorry,Imissedyourpost.
Ialsobelievethattheunityouareoperatingmaybeburningmorethanonegasfuel,basedonsomeofthe
logicsignalsinthepost(_IPInertPurge,forone).Youdidn'ttellusaboutthat.
Givemesomemoretimetoreviewyourpost.
By CSA on 17 June, 2014 - 4:43 pm

Neo,
YouarereadingtheLongnamedescriptionforLCRPERRveryliterallyandthatcanbeamistakesometimes.
Aswe'velearned.Ifthatlogicsignalhasarung,canyoupostit?
YoursentenceforL3STCK3iscorrect.
Andyouarealsoright:L4TisVERYimportant(we'reheadedtheresoon!).But,youareNOTcorrectin
thateverytripisnotrunto/throughL4Tbecausetherecanbetripsconnectedtoandfrom
(remembertheoverspeed/rateofspeedchangetripsthatis'sprimaryfunction!).L4Tisalloftheturbine
tripsthatcomefrom<Q>(<R>,<S>and<T>))andtheapplicationcoderunningin<Q>andthetripinputs
connectedto<Q>.
The"connection"betweenL4andL4Tis:
L4S L4T L94T L4

---| |-----|/|------|/|----------( )
|
L4 |
---| |---
Remember?That'swherewestarted:L4.We'renowworkingonhowL4Sgetstobealogic"1"andwhenL4T
isNOTalogic"1"andL94TisNOTalogic"1"thenL4willbealogic"1"(whenL4Sgoestoalogic"1"
whichitdoesforafewsecondsatmost).
Again,thewholeFPAG(FuelPressureAuxGas)seemstoberelatedtoasecondgasfuel,perhapsan"off
gas"fromsomeprocessnearbythathassomeheatcontentthatcanbeburnedinthegasturbinebutthe
turbinecan'tbestartedontheauxgas,andtheauxgaspipingneedspurging.?.?.?
Iwouldn'tbetooshockedtofindthisis"maxcase"logicmeantformachineswithdualgasfuelcapability
andyourunitdoesn'thaveit,ormaybeitwassuppliedwiththeintentofhavingitsomeday.?.?.?But,thisis
whereI'mcomingupwiththeauxgasstuffthesesignalsseemtobeindicatingthatyoudidn'ttellusabouta
secondgasfuelcapability,OR(perhapsmorelikely)itdoesn'texistandwas(sadlyandalmostcriminally)left
intheapplicationcode.
Hopethishelps!
Ifyou'requestionsaboutL3STCK3havebeenanswered,wecanmoveon.Otherwise,let'sgetthemanswered
toyoursatisfactionbeforewedo(moveon).
Andifyouhaveotherquestions(related)thathavecomeuprecently,let'sdealwiththosehere,too,andnow.
Idon'tunderstandwhyyoupostedL14HSX,andthendidn'tdiscussitall....
By Neo on 18 June, 2014 - 9:05 pm

CSA,
Thankyouforyourreply,andyoureplyisalwaysenlightening.
Itseemsthatyouknoweverything,andmostofyourguessaboutthisunitisright!
ThisisaPG6561BL(MS6001B)gasturbine,andithinkLisforlowheatcontentfuel.
WhenitisundernormaloperationitburnsBFG(BlastFurnaceGas)andCOG(coalovengas),BFGandCOG
doare"offgas"fromnearbysteelplant.AndBFGandCOGarepremixed(syngas).Andthisunitstartson
lightdieseloil.WecanchoosefuelinHMIfrom"syngas,distillatefuelandgas/distillatefuelmix".
AndthereisaIGCCmoduleintoolbox,andithinkitisrelatedtothegasfuelsystem.
Ihaveseveralquestions:
Howdidyoudeducetheseinformationfromsiganlnames?WhatisIPstandsforinL30IPFLT2?
Whythisunithavetostartonliquidfuel,lowheatcontent?Ifwechosensyngasongasturbinestartby
mistake,whatwillhappen?
Yousaid"buttheturbinecan'tbestartedontheauxgas,andtheauxgaspipingneedspurging".Whatdoesthe
purging
systemfor?Ifoundthisunitisequippedgasfuelandliquidfuelpurgingsystem.
Ithinktheauxgasinapplicationcodeissygas,right?Anditisweird,whereistheprimarygas?
Sorryforbotheringyouwithsomanyquestions,butitreallyhauntsme.
Thankyou.
Bestregards!
Neo.
By Neo on 18 June, 2014 - 9:27 pm

CSA,
IfinditisnotconvenienttoprintCSP.
CSPwillbesplitbypagemarkerandthepageisnotfitintoA4.
Bestregards!
Neo
By Neo on 22 June, 2014 - 7:49 pm

CSA,
Itseemsthatyoudonotrespondassoonasbefore:(
What'swrong?
Ifyoudonotwannagoonthisjourney,youcanjustletmeknow.That'tok.
Neo
Bestregards.
By CSA on 23 June, 2014 - 10:38 am
Neo,
I'vebeenhavingcomputerhardwareissueswithmyoldandtrusteddesktopwhichisthecomputerIusefor
writingthelongmissivesforthisthread.(It'stoodifficulttorespondtothisthreadusingatabletIdon'thavea
keyboardforthetablet.)
I'mstillkeentocontinueandcompletethejourneybutIdo,also,haveapayingjobthatImustdevote
attentionto.Inthisbusinessonecanneveranticipatewhensomethingwillbreakorsomeonewilldecidethey
wanttoupgradetheirequipmentthisweekonlytodecidenextweekthatit'stooexpensiveandtheywantto
keeptheircurrentequipmentwithoutdoinganymaintenance.
Idon'tunderstandthecommentaboutprintingtheCSP.ThedesignersofToolboxneverenvisionedanyone
wouldwanttoprinttheapplicationcode(it'sCSPfortheMarkV;sequencingfortheMarkIV;andapplication
codefortheMarkVIandMarkVIeisn'tthisfun?).So,whiletheymadeahalfheartedattemptataPrint
function,theydidn'tdoaverygoodjobofit.
AsIsaid,IusetheMSWindowscapturehotkeysequencesandwithWin7andWin8.1there'sthe'Snippet'
toolto"grab"what'sinToolboxdisplayandcopyittotheClipboardandthenpastthecontentsinaMSWord
orWordpaddocumentandthenprintthattomakenoteson.
Thereisjustsomuchempty"whitespace"(wastedspace)intheToolboxandToolboxSTprintoutsandthe
wayelementsaredisplayedcanbeextremelyconfusing(againbecauseofthehalfheartedprintingroutine
usedinToolboxandToolboxST)thatit'sjustnotworththeeffortunlessonehasLOTSoftime,toner
cartridges,andreamsofpaper.
AsforthecommentsabouthowdidIknowtheunitburnedlowBTUgasfuel,well,fromtheLongname
descriptionsyouprovidedwhichincludedtheInertPurgeterm.
Naturalgaswillalwaysbethe"primarygasfuel"eveniftheunitdoesn'tburnnaturalgas.Anyothergasfuel
forthetimebeingwillbethe"aux"gas,andsometimesreferredtoas"syngas."Ibelievethatportionsofthe
purgingsequenceinyourmachinewerelikelycopiedandpastedfromtheIGCCunitcontrolschemes
(Integrated,GasifiedCombinedCyclethetestunitsfortryingcoalgasification)astheyusepurgingquite
extensivelyinthegasfuelsystem(s).
Generally,thereasonmostturbinesarestartedon"conventional"fuelsisthattheresimplyisn'tenoughheat
contentinthesecondaryfuel(s)("aux"gas,inyourcase)toreliablystarttheunit.Itworksoneday,butnotthe
nextandusuallybecausetheheatcontentofthesecondaryfuelisn'tconsistent.So,thedecisionismadeto
startonamoreconsistent(conventional)fuelforreliability.
Iftheapplicationcodeiswrittencorrectly,ifyoutrytostarton"aux"gas,itjustwon'tallowtheSTARTtobe
initiatedmostlikely.Andifitdid,again,itmightstarttodaybutthenmightnotstarttomorrowornextweek
onthe"aux"gas.
Gasfuelpurgingistoremovethe"aux"gasfromthepiping,usuallyforsafety'ssakeandALSOtokeephot
combustiongasesfromtheotherfuel(liquidfuelinyourcase)fromenteringthegasfuelpassagesandcausing
problemswhenrunningonliquidfuel.
Liquidfuelpurgingisalsodonefortworeasonstoremovetheliquidfuelfromthefuelnozzlestoprevent
coking(carbonizationoftheliquidfuelbytheheatfromhotcombustiongaseswhenrunningonthe"aux"gas),
andalsotoensurehotcombustiongasesdon'tentertheliquidfuelnozzlesoratomizingairpassageswhen
runningon"aux"gas.
GEisconsistentlyinconsistentwithit'suseofwordsandtermsasaremostothermanufacturersintheworld.
Frankly,therearejusttoomanypeopleworkingonvariouspartsofthegasturbine,thecontrolsystem,andthe
auxiliariesandthere'snoonepersonorgroupthat'smakingsureconsistentwordsandtermsareused
throughoutthedocumentation(includingcommentsintheapplicationcode,theControlSpecification,and
SystemDescriptions,etc.).
TheinterestingthingtonotehereisthatGEandpackagersofitsturbinessellaLOTaeroderivativegas
turbinestomilitaryorganizationsaroundtheworld.Andtheyhavetoprovidedocumentationthatisconsistent
andexplicit.TheUSgovernment,forexample,willinsistonseeingthedocumentation(trainingmanuals;
systemdescriptions;maintenanceandpartsmanuals)BEFOREtheywillstartreceivingandinspecting
equipment.Thisisbecausetheywanttobesurethatoperators,techniciansandrepairpersonnelhavegoodto
excellentdocumentationtoworkfromwhenservicingthisequipmentatsea,orwhileontheground(for
aircraft)especiallyintimesofconflict.Theydon'tcallforaservicepersontocometofixtheequipment;they
havetrainedpersonneltodothatandtheywanttomakesurethemanualsanddocumentationtheirpersonnel
havearevery,verygood.
Toobadthesamethingdoesn'thappenforheavydutygasturbines....It'sreallytoobaditdoesn't.Theirlives
(GEfieldservicepersonnel),theexperiencesofoperatorsandtechnicians,andtheworkofmechanicswould
allbeSOMUCHeasieriftheheavydutyunitshadmanualsanddocumentationthat'sevenhalfasgoodasthe
militarydocumentation.
But,Idigress.
Whatrungareyougoingtodocumentnextonourjourney?(Realizingwebothhavejobsandlives,ofcourse.)
By Neo on 28 June, 2014 - 7:53 am

CSA,
"AsforthecommentsabouthowdidIknowtheunitburnedlowBTUgasfuel,well,fromtheLongname
descriptionsyouprovidedwhichincludedtheInertPurgeterm."
IstheInertPurgetermspecialforlowBTUsystem?Ifoneunitburnsnaturalgas,purgesystemisstill
needed,right?
Ihappenedtoseeatestbenchapplicationcode.
Thetestbenchapplicationdoes'thaveIGCCmodule,anditsGAS_LIQ_PURGEmodulehasLIQ_NO_DLN
andGAStasks,whileourapplicationhasIGCCmodule,butonlyLIQ_NO_DLNtaskinGAS_LIQ_PURGE
module.
Soithinkyoudeduction"thatportionsofthepurgingsequenceinyourmachinewerelikelycopiedandpasted
fromtheIGCCunitcontrolschemesastheyusepurgingquiteextensivelyinthegasfuelsystem(s)"isright.
IwonderedthatifanIGCCunithasanuniquepurgesystem?
AndforourunitthatburnslowBTUgasfuel,shoulditspurgesystembedifferentfromthosethatburns
naturalgas?
Maybethesequestionsareveryboring,butiamstillcurious.
Mayitnotbotheryou.
Bestregards!
Neo.
By CSA on 29 June, 2014 - 1:27 pm

Neo,
Usually,wheneveraGEdesignheavydutygasturbineburnsmultiplefuels(eventwodifferentgaseousfuels)
therearefuelpurgesystems.Thisprimarilytoensurethatthereisnofuelinthesystemwhichisnotinservice
whichcanaccidentallyignite,andalsooneoftheprimarypurposesofthepurgesystemistoprovideaflowof
coolingairthroughthefuelsystemnotinservice.Anotherbenefitofthisflowofairthroughthefuelsystem
whichisnotinserviceisthatitpreventsthebackflowofhotcombustiongasesintothefuelsystemwhichis
notinserviceandwhichcancauseveryseriousdamagetopipingandcomponents(especiallyfuelnozzlesand
flexiblepipingsection).
Somefuelsareverydangerousifexposedtooxygen,evenatmosphericoxygen,sothepurgeisusedtoensure
thatnounburnedfueliseverpresentinthepiping.
Afuelpurgesystemisafuelpurgesysteminmyopinion.Idon'tthinkonefuelorprocesshasapurgesystem
thatisthatmuchdifferentthananyotherexceptwhensomeinertgasisrequiredtopurgethefueltoavoid
comingintocontactwithoxygen.Thesesystemswillbemorecomplicated,necessarilyso,becauseofthe
additionalpipingandregulatorsandvalvesandsolenoidsandsuch.Idon'tknowifthelowBTUfuelatyour
sitequalifiesassuch,butitcould.Gasturbinesareburningalotofdifferentfuelsthesedaysaspeopleare
lookingtopreventflaringoffgasestoreduceemissionsandtoincreasetheefficiencyoftheprocessby
utilizingavailableenergyfromhydrocarbonsinsteadofjustburningitorventingit.
Hopethishelps!
NextrungintheL4Journey,please?
By Neo on 25 June, 2014 - 5:54 am

CSA.
Verygladtoreceiveyourreply,andthankyousincerelyforyourengagement.Iamnotrich,oriamwillingto
payyouforthisinterestingjourney:)
Andifyouarebusy,justletmeknow.Youknowwaitingismiserable.
Ihatetoquitandiwannatogoonthisjourneyandfinishit.
Thankyouagainforyourhelp.
Youmissedthisquetionbelow:
A>B----|
| L14HSX L3TFLT
---------| |---------||-----------( )
A=CAKCPD(35psi)
B=CPD
AnditriedtofindthedifferecebetweenL14HSandL14HSX.
L14HS L4 L14HSX
---------||--------------||-----( )
|
L14HSX L94X |
------||------|/|----
L94X=Startup check stop GT normal shutdown;
L14HS=HP operating speed signal;
AsforL3TFLT,ifCPDislessthan35psiwhengasturbineisundernormaloperation,thenL3TFLTislogic1.
IwaswonderingthefunctionoftheL14HSX,andwhethercanL14HSXintheL3TFLTrungbereplacedby
L14HS.
IamconfusedaboutL94X.Inthetoolbox,itsdescriptionis:StartupcheckstopGTnormalshutdown.
L3RS1L3RS2L5VPRO_LATCHL3RS
|||||/|()
L3RS1=Startupcheckstopreadytostart1;
L5VPRO_LATCH=ProtectiveVPROcardtriplatch;
AswejustfinishedL3RS1,ithinkL3RS2ismyassugnmentthistime.
L52ONLINEL3COMM_IOL3ACSL3RS2
|/|||||()
L52ONLINE=Unitonline;
L3COMM_IO=VCMIstatechangesfor<R>,<S>,<T>OK;
L3ACS=Auxiliarycheckservos;
IfindL3ACSisnoteasy,soidecidetodealthissigalthistime.
L3GFLT L3LFLT L62TT2 L3ACS

----|/|-----|/|------|/|--------( )
| |
L84TL | L84TG |
-----||------||----
L3GFLT=Gas fuel control fault;
L3LFL=Liquid fuel control fault;
L84TL=On total liquid fuel;
L84TG=On total gas fuel;
L62TT2=startup check stop mutiple start counter;
letmestartwithL62TT2:<Pre>
Timer_sec_Counter
L2FZ(log_in)(log_out)L62TTL62TT(INC)(AT_CNT)L63TT2
K62TT(pu_del)K62TT2(MAX_CNT)
L1XY(RESET)
L2FZ=startupcheckstopmultiplestartspermissive;
K62TT=startupcheckstopmultiplestarttimedelay(5s);
L62TT=startupcheckstopmultiplestartandatuorefire;
K62TT=startupcheckstopmultiplestartcount(2);
L1XY=startupcheckstopauxtomastercontrstupperm;
Whenthenumberofpulse(L62TTsignal)islessthan2(K62TT2),thanL63TT2islogic0.
ThereareseveralcombinationswhichwillmakeL3ACSlogic1whenL63TT2islogic0:
1.L84TL=1,L3LFLT=0;Thegasturbineisontotalliquidfuel,andtheliquidfuelcontrolisnotinfault.
2.L84TG=1,L3GFLT=0;Thegasturbineisontotalgasfuel,andthegasfuelcontrolisnotinfault.
3.L3GFLT=0,L3LFLT=0;Thefuelcontrolsystemisnotinfault.
CSA,IamconfusedaboutL62TT2,andcanyouexplainitbriefly.
Accordingtotheabovecombination,thegasturbinecanstartupwhenoneofthefuelcontrolsystemsis
fault,andisitreliable?
By Neo on 25 June, 2014 - 10:34 am
CSA.
Verygladtoreceiveyourreply,andthankyousincerelyforyourengagement.Iamnotrich,oriamwillingto
payyouforthisinterestingjourney:)
Andifyouarebusy,justletmeknow.Youknowwaitingismiserable.
Ihatetoquitandiwannatogoonthisjourneyandfinishit.
Thankyouagainforyourhelp.
Youmissedthisquestionbelow:
A>B----|
| L14HSX L3TFLT
---------| |---------||-----------( )
A=CAKCPD(35psi)
B=CPD
AnditriedtofindthedifferebcebetweenL14HSandL14HSX.
L14HS L4 L14HSX
---------||--------------||-----( )
|
L14HSX L94X |
------||------|/|----
L94X=Startup check stop GT normal shutdown;
L14HS=HP operating speed signal;
AsforL3TFLT,ifCPDislessthan35psiwhengasturbineisundernormaloperation,thenL3TFLTislogic1.
IwaswonderingthefunctionoftheL14HSX,andwhethercanL14HSXintheL3TFLTrungbereplacedby
L14HS.
IamconfusedaboutL94X.Inthetoolbox,itsdescriptionis:StartupcheckstopGTnormalshutdown.
L3RS1L3RS2L5VPRO_LATCHL3RS
|||||/|()
L5VPRO_LATCH=ProtectiveVPROcardtriplatch;
AswejustfinishedL3RS1,ithinkL3RS2ismyassugnmentthistime.
L52ONLINE L3COMM_IO L3ACS L3RS2
------|/|---------||-------||------( )
L52ONLINE= Unit online ;
L3COMM_IO=VCMI state changes for <R>,<S>,<T> OK;
L3ACS=Auxiliary check servos;
L3GFLT L3LFLT L62TT2 L3ACS

----|/|-----|/|------|/|--------( )
| |
L84TL | L84TG |
-----||------||----
L3GFLT=Gasfuelcontrolfault;
L3LFL=Liquidfuelcontrolfault;
L84TL=Ontotalliquidfuel;
L84TG=Ontotalgasfuel;
L62TT2=startupcheckstopmutiplestartcounter;
letmestartwithL62TT2:
Timer_sec _Counter
L2FZ(log_in) (log_out)L62TT-----------L62TT(INC) (AT_CNT)L63TT2
K62TT(pu_del) K62TT2(MAX_CNT)
L1XY(RESET)
L2FZ=startupcheckstopmultiplestartspermissive;
K62TT=startupcheckstopmultiplestarttimedelay(5s);
L62TT=startupcheckstopmultiplestartandatuorefire;
K62TT=startupcheckstopmultiplestartcount(2);
L1XY=startupcheckstopauxtomastercontrstupperm;
Whenthenumberofpulse(L62TTsignal)islessthan2(K62TT2),thanL63TT2islogic0.
ThereareseveralcombinationswhichwillmakeL3ACSlogic1whenL63TT2islogic0:
1.L84TL=1,L3LFLT=0;Thegasturbineisontotalliquidfuel,andtheliquidfuelcontrolisnotinfault.
2.L84TG=1,L3GFLT=0;Thegasturbineisontotalgasfuel,andthegasfuelcontrolisnotinfault.
3.L3GFLT=0,L3LFLT=0;Thefuelcontrolsystemisnotinfault.
CSA,IamconfusedaboutL62TT2,andcanyouexplainitbriefly.
Accordingtotheabovecombination,thegasturbinecanstartupwhenoneofthefuelcontrolsystemsis
fault,andisitreliable?
By CSA on 25 June, 2014 - 1:03 pm

Neo,
I'mnotquitesurewhatthequestionis,butlet'strythis.Thecomparatorischeckingtomakesurethemedian
valueofCPDisgreaterthan35psig;ifit'snotthenwhentheunitisabove14HSandrunning(we'llgettothat
inaminute)thenL3TFLTisalogic"1"andusually,thesedays,thatmeansaturbinetripespeciallyfor
machineswithDLNcombustors(becauseCPDisveryimportantforexhausttemperaturecontrolVERY
important).
L14HSXisauniqueL14HSinthat,asyoucanseemfromtherungoncetheunitisrunning(L4isalogic"1")
andtheunitgetsabove14HS(usually95%TNH),thenL14HSXlatchesin(throughtheL94X/L14HSX
parallelpartoftherung).L94Xisaveryimportantsignala94deviceisashutdowndevice,notaTRIP,buta
normal,orderlyshutdown.As,inanoperatorselectsSTOPandtheunitstartsunloading,thebreakeropens,
andtheunitgoesintoafiredshutdownuntilisreachesCooldown.
Someotheroperatingconditionscanalsoinitiatean"automatic"shutdown(sometimeshighhighinletairfilter
differentialpressure,orsimilar)candothesamethingthroughL94AXwhichdrivesL94X(havealookatthe
applicationcodeinyourmachine).
So,iftheturbinetrips,L4goestoalogic"0"andatwhateverspeedit'satthenL14HSXwillgotoalogic"0".
BUT,iftheunitgoesbelow14HS(usually94.5%speed)whenit'soperating(thatmeansthegridfrequencyis
morethan5.5%belownormal!!!)thenL14HSXwillremainalogic"1",andinthecaseofL3TFLTtherung
canstillactivateifCPDdropsbelow35psig.Kindofconfusing,butnotreally.(Ihope!)
L3RS2wouldbethenextlogicalprogression;yes.
AndtheimportantlogicsignalinL3RS2isL3ACSanothersignalwhichshouldberelativelystraightforward
butwhichhasbecomesomewhatpervertedovertheyears.
L62TT2standsfor"TurbineTriedTwicetoStart".It'sa"relic"(old)bitoflogicthatcausesaLOTof
problems.ItwasputintoGElogicwaybackwhenalotofGEdesignheavydutygasturbineswerebeingused
forpeakerunits(duringtimesofhighelectricaldemand)andnaturalgascompressordrive,andalotofthese
siteswereunmanned.So,ifaSTARTwasinitiatedfromaremotelocation(say250kmaway)andsomething
nottoocriticalinterruptedtheSTARTsequence,asecondSTARTwouldautomaticallybeinitiatedbythe
Speedtronicpanelwithoutanyoperatorintervention.(ThiswaslongbeforethedaysofSCADAandEthernet
andHMIs,soalarmsweregroupedintocriticalandnoncriticalbunchesandtheonlyalarmtheremote
operatorwouldgetwouldbea"Group1"or"Critical"alarm,soitwasn'tmuchhelp.)
IftheturbinestillfailedtostartandacceleratetoFSNLonthesecond,automaticattemptL62TT2wouldgoto
alogic"1"andthensomeonewouldhavetogotositetocheckontheunit.Sometimes,theremoteoperator
couldjustinitiateanotherSTARTifitfailedthesecondautomaticstart,butusually,onceL62TT2pickedup
startingwaspreventeduntilsomeonewenttositeandinitiatedaMASTERRESETwhichwasthemechanism
forrequiringahumantoresettheSpeedtronicintheeventofacriticalproblembeforetheturbinecouldbere
started.So,that'salittlehistoryofthesignal.
Ithas,unfortunately,remainedinthelogicevenforcombinedcyclepowerplantseventhoughithascauseda
lotofproblems.Forexample,ifaSTARTisunsuccessfulforsomeminorreasonandaFAILUREtoSTART
alarmisannunciated,whiletheoperatorsarescratchingtheirheadsaboutwhatwentwrongtheSpeedtronic
willautomaticallywithoutoperatorinterventioninitiateanotherSTARTsequence,atwhichpointeveryone
isshockedandsurprised.AndthisisbecauseofL62TT2beingleftinthecontrolschemeevenforcombined
cyclepowerplantswhicharealmostNEVERunmanned.
AnotherproblemthatoccursiswhentheturbineisSTOPpedbeforethegeneratorbreakersynchronizes(which
isusuallyCompleteSequencethesedays),whichincrementsL62TT2once,andwhentheunitgetsbackdown
tozeroorminimumfiringspeed(dependingonthemachine)itwillautomaticallySTARTagainwhichalso
causesquitealotofsurpriseandconsternation.
IwishGEwouldstopshippingapplicationcodewiththatlogictomannedsites,andonlyadditifthesiteis
convertedtounmanned,orblockitwithaNO'false'orsomethinglikethat,becauseitreallycausesalotof
griefandcanbeveryscary.But,sincemostoftheengineersatGEdon'tunderstandhowthesignalcametobe
andaren'tcapableofcriticalthinkingtheyjustleavethesignalinand,itusuallyresultsinatleastoneproblem
duringcommissioning,andagainafterwardswhennooneisexpectingtheunittoautomaticallyrestart,butit
does.
So,exceptforcertainunfortunatecircumstancesyoucanpresumethatL62TT2isalwaysalogic"0".And,
unfortunately,withoutbeingabletoseealloftheapplicationcodeinthemachineatyourplantit'simpossible
tosaypreciselywhatthosecertainunfortunatecircumstancesare....Thankyou,Belfort,yetagain.
AAARRRGGGHHH!!!
TheL3COMM_IOisoneofthewaysthattheSpeedtroniccheckstomakesurethatallthreecontrolprocessors
(<R>,<S>and<T>)arehealthyandcommunicatingwitheachother.Ihave,unfortunately,heardofpeople
beingabletoforcethislogictobeabletoTRYtostartthemachinewhenthereisaproblemwithoneofthe
VCMIcardsandthenwhentheunitwon'tstarttheyarefurious,tosaytheleast.BecauseofthewaytheMark
VI(andVIe)areconfigured,itmightbepossibleforastarttoactuallybesuccessfulbutitshouldn't,andI
believethatmostMarkVIfirmwarehasbeen"fixed"tostopthisfrombeingevenanunlikelypossibility.
So,writethesentenceforL3RS2andforL3ACS,Neo.
Yes;iftheunitisnotonTotalGas(L84TGisNOTalogic"1")andthereisafaultwiththegasfuelsystemthe
unitcanstillbestarted.Willitbe"reliable"?What'syourdefinitionof"reliable"?
By Neo on 28 June, 2014 - 3:35 am

CSA,
ThankyouforyourdetailedandenlighteningcommentonL14HSX,L62TT2andL30COMM_IO.
Whentheselectedfuelcontrolsystemisnotinfault(L84TL=1,L3LFLT=0orL84TG=1,L3GFLT=0)and
L62TT2islogic0,thenL3ACSwillgotologic1.
Whentheunitisnotonline(L52GX=0),allthreecontrolprocessorsarehealthyandcommunicatingwith
eachother,andL3ACSislogic1,thenL3RS2willgoestologic1.
L4S L94T L4T L4

-----| |-----------|/|----------|/|------------( )
|
|
L4 |
-----| |------
ItseemsthatwehavejustfinishedL4S,sowhatismynextassignment,L94TorL4T?
Beforemovingon,ihaveseveralquestionstoaskaboutL62TT2.
1)
Timer_sec _Counter
L2FZ(log_in) (log_out)L62TT-----------L62TT(INC) (AT_CNT)L62TT2
K62TT(pu_del) K62TT2(MAX_CNT)
L1XY(RESET)
Aswecanseenfromtheaboverung,ifL62TT2islogic1afterasecondstartupfailure,itwillresettozero
whenL1XYpicksup,thenmeansL1Xgoestologic0.
TOmyunderstanding,iftheunitstops,L1Xgoestologic0(Isitright?),thenL62TT2goestologic0.Butyou
said:"OnceL62TT2pickedupstartingwaspreventeduntilsomeonewenttositeandinitiatedaMASTER
RESET."
ShouldipostL2FZrungandL1Xrung?Maybeithelps.
2)Yousaidiftheturbinefailtostartforsomeminorreasons,theunitwillstartupautomatically,andifit
failagainthenstartingwaspreventeduntilsomeonewenttosite.
Myquestionishowcanideducethisfromapplicationcode,whichpartofapplicationcodeshouldireadto
confirmthis?
AswecanseefromL2ACSrung,iftheunitisnotonTotalGas(L84TGisNOTalogic"1")andthereisafault
withthegasfuelsystemtheunitcanstillbestarted.
Inmylastreplyidoubteditsreliability.Ijustwonderedifwechangedtogasfuelduringoperation,andgasfuel
systemisinfault,thatwillbeaproblem.WhynotmakesurebothofthefuelcontrolsystemisOK?
By Neo on 30 June, 2014 - 8:48 am
CSA,
Thankyousomuchforyourcommentonfuelpurgesystem.Youarealwayspatienttoanswerallkindsof
questions.
Ithinkyoumissedanotherreplyofmine.:)
ThistimeiwillexamineL94T,andithinkitisveryimportanttoo.
HerecomesL94T:
L94XZ L94T
------||---------|----()
|
L28FD L83RB |
-----|/|-----||---
|
L2CANT |
------||---------
L94XZ=Startupcheckstopfiredshutdown
L28FD=Flamedetected
L83RB=startupcheckstopramptoblowoutselected
L2CANT=Triponcanflameouttimedout
Iconfrontedwithmanysignalnamedescriptionsthatstartwith"startupcheckstop",whileithinkthesesignals
hasnothingtodostartupcheck,justlikeL94XZ.
Aswecanseefromaboverung,therearethreekindsofconditionsthatwillleadL94Ttologic1.
AndiwillstartwithL28FDandL83RB.
L28FD L83RB L94T

-----|/|-----||-----------( )
L60RB L94SD L83RB

---------|/|--------||----------( )
L60RB=startupcheckstopaboveramptoblowoutspeed
L94SD=startupcheckstopshutdownwithbreakeropen
Iamalittleconfusedabouttheterm"blowoutspeed",andithink"rampto"canbe"increaseto"or"decrease
to",right?
(TNH>K60RB)----
| L28FDY L60RB
------------| |-----|/|--------( )
Accordingtotheaboverung,whenTNHislessthan30%ratedspeedorFlameisnotdetected,thenL60RBis
logic0.AndwhileL94SDislogic1,thenL83RBislogic1.Whenl83RBislogic1andFlameisnot
detected,thenL94Tislogic1.
ItseemsthatwhetherTNHislessthan30%ratedspeedornotdoesn'tmatter,forwhenflameisnotdetectedno
matterwhatvalueofTHNistheL94Twillbelogic1(withl94SD=1).
L94XZ L94T
-----------||---------------------( )
L52GY L94X L94XZ
-----------||--------||----------(T)
8min
IfSTOPcommandwassentformorethan8minandthebreakerisopen,thenL94Tislogic1.
L28CAN1 L28CAN L2CANT

-------||--------------(T)----------(T)
| 1s 5s
L28CAN2 |
-------||------
|
L28CAN3 |
-------||------
|
L28CAN4 |
-------||------
L28CAN=Any can flameout
L2CANT=Trip on falmeout timed out
Take L28CAN1 for example:
L28FDF1 L28FDA L28CAN1
------||-------|/|----------()
L28FDF1=Flame Detector 1 Funtional
L28FDA=Flame Detector Channel #1
L28FDA L94SD L4 L28FDF1
------||-----||------||------()
|
L28FDF1 |
------||-----
L94SD=Startupcheckstopshutdownwithbreakeropen
WhenSTOPcommandsentandthebreakerisopen,ifanyoneoftheFlameDetectordoesn'tdetectflame,
L2CANT
islogic1.
IwonderedwhytherearethreekindsofconditionthatwillleadL94Ttobelogic1.
IfSTOPcommandissentbyoperator,itwillgothoughwhichrung?
Andthegasturbinefailtostartafterignite,itwillgothroughwhichrungtostop?
CSA,youshouldrespondwhenyouarenotbusy.
Maynotdisturbyoutomakemoney:.
Justajoke:)
By CSA on 1 July, 2014 - 3:36 pm

Neo,
Yes;L94Tisveryimportant.L4willdropout(goestoalogic"0")wheneitherL4TorL94Tpicksup(goesto
alogic"1").L4Tisfromtheapplicationcodetripdetection(LowlowL.O.Pressure;HighhighL.O.
Temperature;Highhighvibration;etc.we'llcoverthemall!).Butthesetripsareonlytheonesdetectedbythe
applicationcoderunningin<R>,<S>and<T>not.
L94TisthewayfuelisshutoffduringanormalshutdowneitheranoperatorinitiatedSTOPoran
automaticallyinitiatedSTOP.A'94'deviceisanormalshutdowndevice.Thisisnottobeconfusedwitha
tripanemergencyshutdown.
Duringanormalshutdownfromload,theunitloadisrampeddownatsomeuniformrateuntilthegenerator
breakeropensonreversepower,atthatpointtheSpeedtronicgoesintowhat'scalled'firedshutdown'mode,
wherethefuelisreducedinstepstodeceleratetheunituntilitreaches(rampsdowntoyouarecorrectinthat
aramp,inthiscase,isadecreaseinspeed)andthenafteracertaintimebelowthatspeed(K60RB)theL4will
dropoutandfuelwillbeshutoff,andtheunitwillcontinuetodeceleratetoCooldown.
Beforetheadventofdigitalcontrolsystems,shortlyafterthegeneratorbreakeropenedfuelwascutoff.This
representsalargethermalstresstothehotgaspathcomponents,andsowhenthecontrolsystemsbecamemore
capableitwasdecidedtoreducethefuelslowlywhiletheturbinewasdeceleratinguntilsuchtimeasitwas
feltthefuelcouldbeshutoffwithoutintroducingtoomuchthermalstresstotheturbine.
Somebodythoughtagoodnameforthisspeedlevelwouldbe"blowout"speedwhoknowswhy;it'snota
verygoodorappropriatename.Itisintendedtomeanthatiffuelweretobefurtherreducedtheairflowing
throughthemachinewouldbeinsufficienttomaintainflame(thefuelairmixturewouldbetoolean)andthe
flamewouldbeblownout.
Thereisalsologicthatsaysiftheunitdoesn'treachthatblowoutspeedbeforeflameislostinanycombustor
withaflamedetectorforasecondorsothatfuelwouldbeshutoffatthatpoint.Thethinkinghereisthatifthe
airflowissohighforthefuelflowatthatpointthatoneormorecombustorsloseflamethatthiswouldresult
inahighexhausttemperaturespreadconditionwhichisalsoverydamagingtohotgaspathcomponents.
So,fuelisjustcutoffifflameislostforabrieftimeduringshutdownandthealarm'CHAMBERFLAMED
OUTDURINGSHUTDOWN'isannunciated,andtheunitcontinuestodeceleratetoCooldown.
Thisalarmsimplymeansthatflamewaslost"prematurely"beforetheunitreached"blowout"speed(again,
thatpoorname).Itmeansthatiftheconditioncontinuesonsubsequentshutdownsthatsomeoneshouldbe
investigatingchangestotheshutdownFSRtokeepflameonlongertohelpreducethethermalstresses.Thisis
especiallytrueiftheconditionhappensatspeedsabove,say70%or80%andevenmorecriticalifithappens
whenshuttingdownonnaturalgasfuel.
ItisVERYimportanttonotethatitisVERYdifficulttomaintainflamewhileshuttingdownwhenliquidfuel
isbeingburnedtospeedsbelowapproximately50%withouthavinglotsofwhitesmokeinthegasturbine
exhaust.Thisisbecauseofthelackofatomizingair(usuallytheBoosterAtomizingAirCompressorisNOT
runningduringafiredshutdown,andonlythemainAAcompressorisrunning),resultinginpoor,incomplete
combustionwhichisthecauseofwhitesmokeinagasturbine'sexhaustwhenrunningonliquidfuel.
So,it'sverycommonfortheretobetwo"blowout"speedsforunitsthatcanburnnaturalgasandliquidfuel
onefornaturalgas(around20%,usually;sometimesashighas30%),andoneforliquidfuel(usually
somewherearound5060%,sometimesevenhigher,becausewhiteexhaustsmokecanbeverybadduring
shutdownwhileburningliquidfuelbecauseofthelackofatomizingair).
Finally,thereislogicthatsaysiftheunitdoesn'treach"blowout"speedwithinacertaintimeafteranormal
STOPisinitiatedwithoutlosingflameinanycombustorthatfuelwilljustbeshutoff.Why?Sometimes,the
fuelisexcessiveduringafiredshutdownandtheunitdoesn'tdeceleratepastacertainpointandjustkindof
"stalls"atsomespeed.Nopointincontinuingtopumpfuelintothemachineifit'snotgoingtodecelerate.
Again,ifthishappenssomeoneshouldbelookingatadjustingtheshutdownFSRconstantstomaintain
decelerationallthewaydownto"blowout"speed.Someunits,newerunits,havesomealarmto"alert"a
consciousoperatortotheexcessivetimeonfiredshutdown.Idon'trecalltheProcessAlarmtextmessage,and
I'veseenatleasttwodifferenttextmessagesforthesamecondition,soitseemsthereisno"standard"forthe
alarmtext.
So,them'salltheconditionsforL94T.
Yes;someofsignalnamescanbeverymisleading,VERY.Again,it'sbestnottojustinherentlytrustevery
signalname,but,rathertoanalyzeandformone'sownopinionanddefinition.But,theonethingitdoesdo
(besidesmakingthingsdifficultformany)isitforcesonetousetheircriticalthinkingskillsandtoinvestigate
andanalyze.That'swhyIliketomakehandwrittennotesonprintedcopiesofapplicationcodeespeciallyas
I'mworkingtounderstandwhataparticularsignal'sfunctionis.
Ihavealsoobjectedtotheuseoftheword"trip"inshutdownlogicoverthreedecades,butitjustfellondeaf
ears.Makesitreallyhardtogetpeopletoproperlycallatripatripandstopashutdownwhenthelongname
descriptionsaremisleading.But,I'monlyoneperson,andwhileInevergaveuphopethatsomeonemight
listenandunderstandandmakethechanges,I'malsoapragmatist.Justnotadefeatist.I'mstilltryingjustina
slightlydifferentway.
;)
Hopethishelps!
So,what'syoursentenceforL94T?
By Neo on 4 July, 2014 - 3:19 am

CSA
IhavetosayyourcommentonL94Tisgreat,great,great!
Itmustnoteasytogetwhereyouarenow.
Soduringanormalshutdown,whenthegeneratorbreakerisopen,ifthespeedoftheHPrampeddownto
K60RB,oranyoneoftheflamedetectordetectsnoflame,orithasbeenmorethan8minsincethegenerator
breakerwasopen,L94Twillgotologic1,andthatmeansfuelwillbecutoff?
Justafewquestions:
1)"Duringanormalshutdownfromload,theunitloadisrampeddownatsomeuniformrateuntilthe
generatorbreakeropensonreversepower,atthatpointtheSpeedtronicgoesintowhat'scalled'firedshutdown'
mode,wherethefuelisreducedinstepstodeceleratetheunituntilitreaches(rampsdowntoyouarecorrect
inthataramp,inthiscase,isadecreaseinspeed)andthenafteracertaintimebelowthatspeed(K60RB)the
L4willdropoutandfuelwillbeshutoff,andtheunitwillcontinuetodeceleratetoCooldown."
Ithinkyourabovecommentreferstotherungbelow.
L28FD=Flame detected
L83RB=startup check stop ramp to blowout selected
L60RB L94SD L28FD L94T
---------|/|--------||--------|/|------( )
L60RB=startup check stop above ramp to blowout speed
L94SD=startup check stop shutdown with breaker open
(TNH>K60RB)----
| L28FDY L60RB
------------| |-----|/|--------( )
Accordingtotheaboverung,duringanormalshutdown,ifTNHrampsdowntoblowoutspeedwhileflameis
detected(L28FD=1),thefuelwillnotcutoff.Thatseemsunreasonable.
Ifiweretheprogrammerofapplicationcode,iwouldliketoreplacetheabovewiththatbelow:
(TNH>K60RB)----
| L60RB
------------| |------( )
L60RB L94SD L94T
---------|/|--------||------------( )
IsitOk?
2)Therearefourflamedetectorswhilethereare18cancombustors.soifoneofthecanthatnotinstalledwith
flamedetectorblowsoutduringanormalshutdown,fuelwillnotcutoff,andthishotgaspathcomponentwill
sufferhighthermalstress,right?
Bestregards
Neo

Neo,
Thankyouforthekindwords.
Yes;IagreewithyoursentencedescribingtheL94Trung.
1)Yes;mycommentreferstotheL60RB.Remember,thecomparatorsaysifTNHisgreaterthanthan
K60RB,thenL600RBwillbealogic"1".And,remember,wesaidthatsometimessignalnamesarenotchosen
properly.L60RBisalogic"1"whentheturbinespeedisaboveK60RBANDflamehasnotbeenlostforsome
periodoftimeduringshutdown,andL60RBisalogic"0"wheneitherTNH<K60RBORflameislostbefore
TNH<K60RB.ItwouldhavemademoresenseifL60RBwerealogic"1"whenTNH<K60RBORflamewas
lostformorethanacoupleofsecondsduringshutdownbutnobodyconsultedme.
WhywouldyoueliminatetheL94SD?
2)Yes,therewillbeincreasedthermalstressifflameislostinanycombustorwhichdoesn'thaveaflame
detectorduringshutdownbecausefuelwillnotbeshutoff.But,therearetradeoffsdoyouwanttopayfor18
flamedetectors?Andmaintain18flamedetectors?Andremoveandreplace18flamedetectorsduring
maintenanceoutages?Withallthewiringandtubing(I'mpresumingtheflamedetectorsarewatercooledat
yoursite)?But,ingeneral,this"lowcyclefatigue"logicworksverywellbecauseitkeepsfuelonmuchlonger
duringdecelerationthatwaspreviouslypossible(rememberflamewasshutoffat95%speedduringevery
shutdown).
CanwestartonL4Tnow,please?

CSA,
HerecomestheL4T!
L4T(1)
L4PST
-----||-------
|
L4PRET |
-----||-------
|
L4POST |
-----||-------
|
L3SMT |
-----||-------
|
L4IGVT |
-----||-------
|
LFPAUXG2LLX |
-----||-------
L4PST=Protectivestatustriplogic1
L4PRET=Preignitiontrip
LPOST=Postignitiontrip
L3SMT=Startingmeansdevicetrip
L4IGVT=Inletguidevanecontroltroubletrip
LFPAUXG2LLX=AuxgasP2pressurelowlowdelayed
Accordingtotheaboverung,thetripsignalsareclassifiedintosixcategories,andiwillstartwithL4PST.
L4PSTX1
-----|/|-------
|
L4PSTX2 |
-----|/|-------
|
L4PSTX3 |
-----|/|-------
|
L4PSTX4 |
-----|/|-------
L4PSTX1=Protectivestatustriplogic1
L63QTX L45FTX L5ESTOP1_FZA L86GT L63ETH L63CSHH L4PSTX1

------|/|------|/|------|/|-------|/|-------|/|-------|/|-----( )
L63QTX=LubeOilGenPrssureLowLowTrip
L45FTX=FireIndicationTrip
L5ESTOP1_FZA=VPROESTOPPBCircuitOpen
L86GT=GeneratorProtectiveTrip
L63ETH=ExhaustDuctPressureHighTrip
L63CSHH=FlowInletDuctDiffPressureGTTrip
1)L63QTX
L63QTXisrelatedtoL63QT(LowL.O.PressureTRIP).SowhenteL.O.pressureistoolowtoprotectthe
bearings,L63QTwillbelogic1.
2)
l45ftx1
-----||------
|
l45ftx2 |
-----||------|
|
l94f1b false|
----||---||--
l45ftx1=fireprotectionaux/turb/loadcomptfiredetection
l45ftx2=fireprotectionexcitercomptfiredetection
l94f1b=fireprotectionexcitercomptCO2release
Iffireisdetectedinspecifiedspace,l45ftx1orl45ftx2willbelogic1.
Iwillcontinuenexttime,andineedtotimetorefertobackgroundinformation.
Iwouldliketoknowwhythereshouldbesuchatrip(likeL63QTX),andwhatwillhappenifthetherewere
notsuchtripsignal(whenL63QTXislogic,theunitdoesn'ttrip).Andwhatdoesthesignalnamestandsfor
(l63QTX,63forpressureswitch,Qforoil,Tfor??,XforAux?).
ItseemsthatL4Tismuchmorecomplicatedthanthosesignalsweconfrontedwithbefore,doyouhaveany
suggestionforhowshouldiexamineL4T.ineedyourguidance.
Bestregards!
Neo

Neo,
Let'sbackupjustaminute,please,andexplainwhyyouwantedtoremoveL94SDfromtheL60RBrung.
AsforL4Tyes;it'smuchmoreinvolvedasithasmostofthecriticalprotectionfortheturbineandauxiliaries
init,soit'sgoingtotakeawhile.Thatshouldbeokay,though,becausethere'salottolearnhereaLOT.
AsforthequestionaboutL63QTXandtheneedforalowlowL.O.pressuretrip,it'sveryimportanttoprotect
themachine(turbine,reductiongear,generator)bearingsfrombeing"wiped"(destroyed)becauseoflackof
lubeoilpressureandflow.And,Iwouldhavethoughtyouwouldhavebeenalloverthisonebecause,when
theturbineisbeingstartedfromzerospeedwhenit'soffCooldown(andtheAux.L.O.Pumpisnotrunning)
theturbineshouldbetripped!But,togetareadytostarttheturbinehastobeNOTtripped,andtogetL4to
picktheturbinehastobeNOTtripped.So,let'sputuptheL63QTXrungandseehowitworkssowecan
explainhowtheturbineisnottrippedwhenthereisnoL.O.PressureduringstartingwhentheAux.L.O.Pump
isnotrunning.It'sprettyimportant,wouldn'tyousay?
AswegothroughL63QTXyouwillseewhythereisa"auxiliary"signaltolowlowL.O.pressure(a'63'
deviceisapressureswitch;'Q'generallystandsforOil,butsometimesstandsfor'Flow',andthe'T'standsfor
Trip,andyesthe'X'standsforauXiliary.
Also,wearegonnahavesomefun(NOT!)withthatLFPAUXG2LLXlogicsignal,too!
Yes;L4Tis(oratleastit'ssupposedtobe)dividedupintoseveralcategoriesnamely:
ProtectiveStatusTripsIfanyofthesetripsaredetectedatanytime(turbinerunningornot)thenatripwill
beinitiated.Thepurposeistoprotecttheturbineandauxiliaries,runningornot,frompotentialcatastrophic
damage.
PreIgnitionTripsAsthenameimplies,theseareconditionswhich,ifdetectedbeforeflameisdetected
("ignition")willresultinatripoftheunit.
PostIgnitionTripsAsthenameimplies,theseareconditionswhich,ifdetectedafterflamehasbeen
detectedwillresultinatripoftheunit.
StartingMeansTripThisis(was)intendedtobethewaytheturbinewastrippedbythestartingmeansifa
problemwiththestartingmeanswasdetected.
IGVTripsThisis(was)intendedtobethewaytheturbinewastrippedifaproblemwasdetectedwith
controloftheIGVs.
InterestingNamedTripsYes;thisisanotherpoorlyimplementedtrip(probablyshouldhavebeeninPost
IgnitionTrips)aswellasanextremelygoodexampleofanextremelypoorchoiceofasignalname.We're
gonnahaveagoodtimewiththisone.
It's,again,criticaltorememberthatthesetripsARENOTallofthepossibletripconditions.Therearetrips
connectedtotheTREG(),aswellastheoverspeedtripsandthedreaded"CompositeTrip"thatare
generatedinthePPROIOPacks,ANDtheEmergencyStop("EStop")pushbuttoncircuit.
Oneofthemostimportantthingsanytechnician(andoperator)candotolearnhowtheturbineattheirplant
operatesistodevelopalistof"Runbacks,Shutdowns,andTrips".Wearegoingtobeworkingonthetripsthat
aredetectedbythecontrolprocessors(<R>,<S>and<T>)asweworkthroughL4T.
Wemightbeabletoopenanotherthread(whenwecompletethisone)thatcaninvestigatetheothertrips
everyoneshouldknowandunderstandtheonesconnectedtoandgeneratedby.
And,ifyou'rereallyinterestedwemightbeabletoopenstillanotherthread(whenwecompletetheothertwo)
aboutRunbacksconditionsthatresultinaloadreductiontosomesetpointortoFSNL(withthegenerator
breakeropen)toprotecttheunit.(Atthatpoint,it'suptotheoperatortounderstandtheconditionwhich
shouldhaveaProcessAlarmtoindicatethecauseoftheRunbackandtakeappropriateaction,eitherto
resolvetheproblemandreloadtheunit,ortoshuttheunitdownuntilsuchtimeastheproblemcanbe
correctedandtheunitrestartedandreloaded.)
Travelingcanbesuchfun!
By Neo on 10 July, 2014 - 6:54 am

CSA
Thankyouagainforthisexcitingjourney,andiamwillingtocontinuethisjourneyuntiltheendofdoomsday.
IwaswonderinghowishouldexamineL4T,astherearesomanysignalsinvolved.Shouldiexaminethose
signalsonebyone?Andwhatshouldifoucson?
Andthisthreadisgettingverylong.IthinkI'mgoingtomakethispartthebeginningofanewthreadnexttime
withthesamenamecalledpart2.Iwillputanoteinthebeginningofthethreadsstatingthatitcomesintwo
partsalongwiththeURLofotherpart.
Haveseenthisthreadyet:http://www.control.com/thread/1403944262
Iwouldliketoknowyouropinion.
Iamalittleexhaustedtoday,andiwilltrytoreplytoyourpreviousrespondtomorrow.
BTW,itseemsthattherearemorethanoneCSAinthisforum:)
Itwillconfusemewhetheriamtalkingto"theCSA".
Bestregards
Neo
By CSA on 10 July, 2014 - 11:49 am

Neo,
Ithinkitwillbebestifweexaminemosteverytripconditionnotallofthembutprobablymostofthem.
Theyareveryusefulinunderstandingwhatconditionsleadtoaturbinetripfromthecontrollers(<R>,<S>
and<T>).
YouareavoidingansweringthequestionaboutwhyyouthinkL94SDisunnecessary....
And,yes,posterH.A.R.hasdecidedtouse'CSA'ashismoniker.HeonlyhasasinglestarnexttohisCSA,so
thatwouldbeyourfirstclueastowhowasrespondingtoyou.;)
And,goodideaaboutstartinga'PartDeux'forthisthread.ThefirstpostshouldbeaboutL63QTX.
By SB on 11 July, 2014 - 4:48 pm

QuestionRegardingInversionMasking
______________________________________________________________________
DearCSA,
I'vebeenfollowingthisthread(IreadthiswheneverIgettime)andIappreciatethetimeandenergyyou
devotetothecommunity.Pleasecontinuethisthread.AsyourlasttwopostsarenotappearingwhenIopen
thisthread,I'llbegoodifthisdiscussioniscontinuedinotherthread(partIIasNeosaid).
L86CB L4Y l27qel L3CP l63fdl

---|/|-------||--------|/|-------||-----|/|--------( ) L3STCK2
| |
| L43FTG |
|----||----|
L3STCK2:Startcheck2
L86CB:CompressorbleedvalveorIGVpositionlockout
L4Y:Lossofmasterprotective
l27qel:Emergencylubeoilpumpundervoltage
L3CP:Customerpermissivetostart
l63fdl:Distillatefuelsupplypressureswitch
L43FTG:TransfertoGas
AsalreadysaidI'malsoonthisjourneywithyouandNeo.I'velearnedtoreadtheRungsandinterprethowit'll
work.I'vemanagedtogetsomeoftheApplicationCoderunninginourSpeedtronicMarkVI,andI'vea
questionregardinginversionmasking.
letmereadtheRung:
whenL86CBislogic"0"ANDL4Yislogic"1"ANDl27qelislogic"0"ANDL3CPislogic"1"ANDl63fdl
islogic"0"ORL43FTGislogic"1"L3STCK2willbelogic"1".
nowinterpretingit:
WhenthereisNOcompressorbleedvalveorIGVpositionlockoutANDlossofmasterprotectivetimeris
completeANDEmergencylubeoilpumpisNOTundervoltageANDCustomerpermissivetostartisselected
ANDDistillatefuelsupplypressureisNOTlowORtransfertogasisselected,startcheck2iscompleted.
Comingtomyquestion,Ithinkthesignall27qelandl63fdlareinverted.
Forl27qel:WhenEOPisnotundervoltage,theNCcontactswillremainclosedandthusitwillallow
L3STCK2topickup.WhenEOPisundervoltagetheNCcontactswillopenandwillpreventL3STCK2to
pickup.ThuswhenthecontactsareclosedthenonlyL3STCK2coilisallowedtopickup.Thisensurewhen
thecontactsareclosedEOPisnotundervoltageandtheswitchisalsoinhealthycondition,thusdoingthe
workofsupervisiontoo.Instead,hadGEhadchosethecontactstoclosewhenEOPisundervoltage,we
wouldn'thaveknownevenifthecircuitisintactornot.
Forl63fdl,WhenthedistillatesupplypressureisnotlowtheNCcontactswillremainclosedthusalowing
L3STCK2topickup.Whenthedistillatefuelsupplypressureislow,theNCcontactswillopen,thus
preventingL3STCK2frompickingup.Thusherealsothecontactsmustbeclose,whichensuresthatthe
distillatesupplypressureisnormalandtheswitchcircuitisintact.
AmIright?I'vetriedhardtounderstandtheconceptofinversionmaskingbyreading(andrereading)your
explanationsinthisthread.PleasecorrectmeifI'mwrong.
______________________________________________________________________
Asyouaskedaboutthemachineatoursiteinhttp://control.com/thread/1403711658#1404062279.Itisa
PG5361.Itishavingconventionalcombustors.Themachineisduelfuelcapable.ItcanbeoperatedonNatural
GasorNaptha,butitisoperatedonNGonlysincelast10years.outoftwomachines,onewasinstalledin
1988andtheotherin1996.BoththemachinescanbeoperatedinDroopandIsochronousmode.Ourplant
generally(notallthetimethough)remainsseparatedfromthegrid.BoththemachinesexhaustsinHRSG.This
arrangementishavingaByPassstack.
By CSA on 13 July, 2014 - 7:01 am

SB,
Inversionmasking.Okay.IhavetomakethisshortasI'vejustbeengivenalastminuteopportunityfora
holidayintheSouthPacificOceanthatonedreamsabout,andI'mgoingtotakeadvantageofit.So,I'm
leavingtomorrowandhavejustafewminutes.I'llcheckthisthreadonmyreturninaboutaweekandahalf.
HOPEFULLYthecontactsofthe27QErelayareNORMALLYOPEN,andclosewhenthereisvoltagetothe
starterandopenwhenthereisnovoltagetothestarter.(WhenthereISvoltagetothestarter,27QEshould
energize,andthatwillcloseaNOcontactconnectedtothel27qelinputoftheSpeedtronic.Now,iftheinput
wereNOTinverted,thatwouldmeanthatl27qelwouldbealogic"1",butthat'sin'violation'ofpropersignal
namingconventionsbecausel27qelissupposedtobealogic"1"whentheEmergencyL.O.Pumpvoltage
isLow(theL(orl)attheendofthesignalnamemeansthesignalnameisalogic"1"whenthevoltage
isLow).So,thesignalisinvertedbysoftwareonthediscreteinputcardBEFOREitdrivesthecontactsinthe
associatedwiththeinputsignalinthesequencing(orapplicationcode).
LetmetrytodrawitherebyattemptingtoshowthephysicalcontactfromtheundervoltagerelayoftheEmer.
L.O.PumpmotorstarterconnectedtotheSpeedtronic'sinputscrewfortheEmer.L.O.PumpMotor
Undervoltageinput,andshowthesoftwarecoildrivenbythecontactinput,becausethat'swhatEVERY
discrete(contact)inputdoes:itdrivesacoilinsoftware,andcontactsassociatedwiththatsoftwarecoilare
usedinthesequencing(applicationcode).Inthecaseofinvertedinputs,thecoilstatusistheopposite(the
inverse)ofwhatonewouldnormallyexpectittobewhenthecontactsareclosedoropen.
Physical | Software
Contact |
27QE Input Screw l27qel
---| |----------o------------------(I)---
The"I"inthesoftwarecoilforl27qelmeanstheinputsignalisinverted,whichmeansthatwhenthenormally
opencontactof27QEthat'sconnectedtotheSpeedtronicinputscrewisclosedl27qelWILLNOTbealogic
"1";instead,itWILLbealogic"0"whichistheinverse(opposite)ofwhatonewouldthinkitshouldbe
whenthecontactwasclosed.
Ifthenormallyopencontactof27QEwereconnectedtorealphysicalelectromechanicalrelayanditwas
closed(whenthereWASvoltagetotheEmer.L.O.Pumpmotorstarter)theelectromechanicalrelaycoilwould
beENERGIZED,itwouldbe"1".Withoutsomeadditionalelectronicdevicestherecanbeno"inversion"ofa
hardwiredcontactdrivinganelectromechanicalrelaycoil.But,usingsoftwareaclosedinputwillNOTcause
thesoftwarecoilitdrivestobealogic"1"itwillcauseittobealogic"0"(theinverseofwhatonewould
expect).Andwhenthecontactsareopen,aninvertedsoftwarecoilwillNOTbealogic"0",butitwillbea
logic"1"(theinverseofwhatonewouldexpect).
Now,aftertheinversion,insoftwarenormallyopenandnormallyclosedworkexactlyasonewouldexpect
whentheassociatedcoildrivingthemisalogic"1"oralogic"0".Whenl27qelisalogic"0",normallyopen
contactsassociatedwithl27qelwillbeopen,andwhenl27qelisalogic"1"thennormallyopencontactswill
beclosed.Normallyclosedcontactsofl27qelwillbeclosedwhenl27qelisalogic"0",andnormallyclosed
contactsofl27qelwillbeopenwhenl27qelisalogic"1".
So,whenthecontactof27QE(inthiscase,itshouldbeanormallyopencontact,thatisopenwherethereisan
undervoltage,andclosedwhenthereisNOundervoltage)isCLOSED,thenl27qelwillbealogic"0"(NOTa
logic"1"aswouldbeexpected)andnormallyclosedcontactsofl27qelwouldbeCLOSEDbecausetheEmer.
L.O.PumpmotorvoltageisNOTlow.
Justapplythesamelogic(thinking)tol63fdl.Anormallyopencontactofthepressureswitchwillbeopen
whentheliquidfuelsupplypressureisLOW,andclosedwiththeliquidfuelsupplypressureisNOTlow
(whenthesupplypressureisnormal).l63fdlwillbealogic"1"whentheliquidfuelsupplypressureisLow,
andbecausethatinputisinvertedthatmeansthatthecontactwillbeOPENwhenthesupplypressureislow
whichwillbethecasewhenthereislowpressure(ornopressure)andtheinputiswiredtoanormallyopen
contactofthepressureswitch.Thenormallyclosedcontactintherungwillbeclosedwhentheliquidfuel
supplypressureisNOTlow(whenl63fdlisalogic"0",whichwillbewhenthecontactof63FDisclosed,and
anormallyopencontactof63FDwillbeclosedwhenthepressureisabovethesetpointoftheswitch).
Finally,thinkaboutitthisway.Ifanormallyclosedcontactof63FDwerewiredtotheSpeedtronic,thenwhen
thereWASpressuretotheswitchthenormallyclosedcontactwouldbeopen.Ifthatcontactwaswiredtoa
noninvertedinputcalledl63fdlthenl63fdlwouldbealogic"0"whentherewaspressure(whichisallwell
andgood!).
However,ifawirefallsoffoneoftheterminalsofthatnormallyclosedcontactof63FDANDatsomepoint
afterthattheliquidfuelsupplypressuredropsbelowtheswitchsetpointandthenormallyclosedcontactcloses
theSpeedtronicwillNEVERknowthattheliquidfuelsupplypressuredropped.So,GEusescontactsthatare
tobeCLOSEDwhentheconditionisNORMAL,andOPENtoalarmortrip(whentheconditionisNOT
normal).Bettertogetafalsealarmwhenawirecomeslooseoraswitchfailsbuttheconditionisnormal,than
nottogetanalarmwhenthereisarealproblem.
WHEW!!!Igottafinishpacking,kickthewifeandkissthedogser,...,uh,...,Imeankissthewifeandkick
thedogs.Er,...,uh,...,Igottago!Pleasereadthis,andrereaditandrereadit.It'saLOTtodigestineven
threereadings,butatsomepointitshouldstarttomakesense.
ALOHA!!!
By SB on 13 July, 2014 - 4:30 pm

CSA,
Firstofallhappyjourney!
Hopeyou'llenjoyalotandcomebackevenwithmoreenergy!
Thanksfortakingthetimetorespond.Yourrepliesarevaluabletome(andmanymorelikeme).
Yes,
Ithasstartedtomakesenseasyousaid.I'mgonnareaditmanymoretimestillyoucomeback.
By party on 27 July, 2016 - 9:49 pm

DearCSA,
ItseemsthatfurtherdiscussiononL4Trungisnotcontinuedinthisthread.Iwouldliketoknowifthe
discussionwascontinuedonanyotherthread.Also,Iamverynewtogasturbinecontrol.Iamhopingtolearn
alotfromyou.
Thanksinadvance!!!
By CSA on 28 July, 2016 - 10:19 am

party,
IfyouclickonaMember'snameitwillshowallofthepostswhichtheMemberhasmade.Iclickedon'Neo'
andIfoundallofthepostswhichhehasmade.And,thereareseveralwhichyoumightbenefitfrom.
Canyoutellusalittleaboutyourposition,theequipmentyouworkwith,andyourworkexperience?
By party on 28 July, 2016 - 11:16 pm

DearCSA,
Presently,Iamworkingwith3nos.GEframe5gasturbine,cogencycle,Napthafuelwhilerunning&HSD
forstartup.Iamanelectricalengineerwith6monthofexperienceinthisfield.IamworkingasaPowerPlant
operationengineer.Rightnow,IhavegonethroughtheGTsupportsystemmanualandhavereadPartIofthis
topic&thereisstillsomuchtograsp.LetmecompleteallthepartsofthistopicandIwillletyouknowifI
willcomeacrossanyprobleminunderstandingthesame.
ThankYou!!
By CSA on 30 June, 2014 - 12:36 pm
Neo,
Thisthreadisgettingprettylarge/longandI'mnotsureI'mseeingalloftherepliesinatimelymanner.So,ifI
missamessage/questionsjustletmeknow.
L62TT2,is,again,kindofan"artifact"ofcodethatGEjustrefusestoremovefrommannedsites.L1Xisnot
usually"cancelled"untiltheoperatorselectsSTOPortheunitsynchronizes(Ithinkthat'sthefinalpermissive
intheautomaticdropoutofL1Xthesedays;itusedtobejustcompletesequence,L3,butit'sbeenmodified
overtheyears.Nouseinstartingageneratordriveturbineunlessthegeneratorbreakercloses,right?(Except
fortestingpurposes.))
L62TT2wasputinplacesothatiftheunitdidnotfire/acceleratetoFSNLwhena"remote"startwasinitiated
thatitwouldautomaticallyattemptasecondfiringattemptprovidedthereasonforafailedstartwasnot
criticalwhichwouldhavesettheMasterProtectiveLockout,whichwouldhaverequiredaMasterResetto
beinitiatedONSITE(MasterResetswerenotallowedtobeinitiatedfromaremotelocation).Typicalreasons
fornotstartingwereairintheliquidfuelsupplypiping,airinthegasfuelsupplypiping,borderlinestartup
parameters,etc.So,itwasfeltthatunlesstheturbinetrippedasecondautomaticallyinitiatedstartattempt
waswarrantedonremotelystartedandoperatedmachines.
Again,sincepeoplemakingthesedecisionsaboutapplicationcodetodayweren'taroundthen,andsincethere
isn'treallyanydocumentationinGEthatexplainssomeoftheoldersequencingthesepeoplejustareloatheto
makeanychangesbecausetheydon'tunderstandiftherewillbeanyknockoneffectsandworse,theycan't
workthroughtheapplicationcodetoseewhatthesignalsdoandiftherewillbeanyknockoneffectsandhow
tomitigatethemiftherewillbe.
WithoutbeingabletoseealloftheapplicationcodeatyoursiteIcan'tsayforsurehowithasbeen"modified"
andwhatitdoestoday.Backintheday,yes;whenL62TT2pickedup,itwaslatchedinbyaMasterReset.
Someonehadtogotositetoobservethestartandresolvetheissue,ratherthanjustcontinuingtopumpfuel
intoaturbine(ornotasthecasemaybe).Alotoftheolderpeakingunitswereliquidfuelonlymachines,and
therecanbelotsofissueswithliquidfuelmachinesthataren'toperatedregularlyandfrequentlyonliquidfuel.
YoujusthavetolookattheL1X,L1XX,L1XYandL62TT2rungsandcontactusageanddeterminewhat,if
anything,willhappenatyoursiteiftheunitdoesn'tfireonthefirstSTART.IftheturbinetripsonaSTART,
thenL62TT2doesn'tcomeintoeffect(usually).It'sonlyifthere'safailuretofirewhichisNOTUSUALLYa
trip(thoughBelfortseemstothinkdifferentlyaboutthat,andonoccasion;theyareasconsistentlyinconsistent
asotherdivisionsofGEcanbe).
So,let'ssaytherewastoomuchairintheliquidfuelsupplypipingandtheturbinefailedtofireonaSTART
attempt.TheMarkVIeshouldannunciatea"FAILTOIGNITE"alarm,andtheunitshouldcontinuetocrank.
UndertheoldL62TT2logic,itwouldreinitiatethepurgetimerandtheunitwouldgothroughanotherpurge
andthenretryanotherfiringattempt.Ifthesecondattemptfailed,theunitwouldjustgobacktocooldown
(ratchet)afterannunciatingasecondFAILTOIGNITE,andtheoperatorwouldhavetotakeappropriate
action.ThatwouldbetypicaloftheL62TT2actionofthepast.Again,withoutbeingabletoseeallofthe
applicationcodeinyourMarkVIe,it'sverydifficulttosaywhatfunctionL62TT2actuallyservesifany.
Asforthereasonforallowingastartononefueliftheotherfuelis"lockedout",youmayneedtostartandrun
themachineforsomereasonwhiletheotherfuelsystemis"unavailable."Yourmachinemightnothavethat
capability,butmanymultifuelmachinesdo.Theliquidfuelmightbeveryexpensivebutifsomeoneneeds
thepower,theymightbewillingtopaythatiftheturbinecan'trunontheotherfuelforsomereason.
Again,GEisallabouttryingtomakethemachinesasreliableaspossible,underthewidestsetof
circumstancespossible.Trytoimagineothersitesandcircumstanceswhenworkingthroughlogic,
rememberingthatthesameapplicationcodeisusedforLOTSofmachines(modifiedasnecessaryforthe
differenttypesofauxiliaries)sowhileitmaynotseemlogicalforyourmachine,itmaybeforothers.And,
leavingitsoprobablydoesn'thamperoperationofyourmachine(thoughitmay;acarefulanalysisisbest
whenyoufindsomethinglikethis).
Hopethishelps.
By Neo on 17 May, 2014 - 11:03 pm

CSA,
IfindouthowtoseewhetheraDIisinvertedornot.
name value description

l12hblt invert inversion makes signal true if contact is open.
l12qn normal inversion makes signal true if contact is open.
SoitisdefinedinI/Odefinitions.
Ithinkinversionmaskingisawaytomeetastandardthatwhenthediscretesignalislogic1,
itmeansthealarmisactuated.
Andl12hbltfollowsthatstandardwhilel12qnviolates.
Isitright?
Bestregards.
Neo
By Shimy on 29 July, 2014 - 2:44 am

CSA,
Iamfollowingthisinterestingdiscussionfewdaysago.IwouldliketojoinitandaskyouaboutGE
philosophyinarrangingstartcheckparametersintogroupsandgodeeperaskingifeachparameterrelatedto
theothersineachgrouporjustrandomarrangement.
By CSA on 29 July, 2014 - 11:59 am

Shimy,
Goodquestion,andwelcometothediscussion.Inthebeginning,itwasintendedthatthegroupsbeoflike
conditions,butovertheyearsthathasceasedtobethecase.And,insomecases,someconditionswouldnotfit
intoagroupwithanyothercondition.Whichwouldmeanalotmore"auxiliary"startcheckrungs.Really,a
startcheckisastartcheckisastartcheck,andtheonlyreasontheyarebrokenupindigitalcontrolsystemsis,
again,becauseofthelimitationofthesequencingeditorstonomorethaneightelements(sevencontactina
horizontalseriesstring,plustherungcoilforatotalofeightelements).Inthedaysofhardwired
electromechanicalrelaystherewasnolimittothenumberofcontactsinaseriesstring(whichmade
troubleshootingratherdifficultattimes).
So,whiletheGEdesignheavydutygasturbinecontrolphilosophywasoriginallyintendedtogroupstart
checkconditions,thathasstoppedbeingthecaseinthelast20yearsorso,particularlyasmoreandmorestart
checkpermissiveshavebeenaddedtotheunitastheybecomemoreandmoresophisticated.
Hopethishelps!
By Monson on 5 May, 2014 - 3:13 pm

Neo
AnotherfavoritedocumentofminetounderstandtheMarkVcontrolsistheA010drawingConstantsand
Diagnostics377a3378.
IamnotfamiliarwiththeMarkV1butisshouldhavesomethingsimiliar.
Bill
GE Gas Turbine IGV angle
What is the logic? GTG is not operating in Temperature Control mode.
By BND on 28 June, 2014 - 4:31 am

Frame6MachinewithMarkV.IGVisoperatingat57DGAwithTTXM=562degreeC.TheIGVmovesto
62DGAandisoperatingbetween5962DGA.Whatisthelogic.GTGisnotoperatinginTemperatureControl
mode
By CSA on 28 June, 2014 - 12:14 pm

BND,
Thereis'exhausttemperaturecontrol'andthereis'exhausttemperaturecontrol.'Whichexhausttemperature
controlareyoureferringto?
MostGEdesignheavydutygasturbineshaveCPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrol(thisiswhatdefines
BaseLoadandisthemaximumallowableexhausttemperaturebasedonoperatingconditionswhentheIGVs
areattheirmaximumoperatingangle.
And,mostGEdesignheavydutygasturbinesalsohaveIGVexhausttemperaturecontrolwhichisthe
methodofmaximizingexhausttemperatureatpartload(belowBaseLoad)bykeepingtheIGVsclosedaslong
aspossiblewhichrestrictstheairflowthroughthemachineandincreasestheexhausttemperature.
WhentheunitisbeingloadedfromsynchronizationandIGVexhausttemperaturecontrolisenabledandactive
theIGVswillbeheldcloseduntilTTXM(theaverageexhausttemperature)getsveryclosetoTTRX(the
CPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrolreferenceagain:themaximumallowableexhausttemperatureforthe
currentoperatingcondition).So,theIGVswillbeheldat57DGAuntilTTXMgetsveryclosetoTTRX
(sometimes,dependingonthevintageofthecontrolalgorithm,itwillbewhenTTXMequalsTTRX)asloadis
increasedtheexhausttemperaturewouldtendtoincreaseaboveTTRXandtheIGVsareopenedslightlyto
maintaintheTTXM/TTRXrelationship.ThisisIGVexhausttemperaturecontrol.
ThiscontinuesduringloadinguntiltheIGVsarefullyopen,andwhenTTXMequalsTTRXthentheunitis
saidtobeoperatingonCPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrol.Again,CPDbiasedexhausttemperature
controlonlyoccurswhentheIGVsarefullyopenthat'spartofthedefinitionofBaseLoad:whentheIGVs
arefullyopenandfuelflowissuchthatTTXMequalsTTRX.
Hopethishelps!
Twolastthings.First,iftheturbineyouareworkingonhasDLN(DryLowNOx)combustors,IGVexhaust
temperaturecontrolisnotoperatorselectable;it'salwayson.
Second,whenaGEdesignheavydutygasturbinewithoutDLNcombustorsisoperatingwithIGVexhaust
temperaturecontroldisabledandnotactivewhentheexhausttemperaturehits700or900degF(sorry;Ican't
rememberwhichtemperatureexactly)theIGVswillstartopeningtomaintainthattemperature(either700or
900degF)astheunitisloadeduntilsuchtimeastheIGVsarefullyopen.Theoperatorinterfacedisplaywill
show"EXHAUSTTEMPERATURECONTROL"duringthisperiod.Thepurposeofthis'exhausttemperature
control'istolimitcombustorpressurepulsationsduringloading(whichoccursaround700or900degF
whichIcouldrememberwhich,butIcan't;sorry).So,really,there's'exhausttemperaturecontrol'andthere's
'exhausttemperaturecontrol'andthere's'exhausttemperaturecontrol.'(Isn'tthisfun?)
By Neo on 29 June, 2014 - 8:24 pm

CSA
Iposteditinwrongthread.
AsbothofIGVsandFSR(right?)haveabilitytoregulateexhausttemperature,howtomakesurewhenthe
IGVsarenotatmaximumoperatingangle,theexhausttemperatureiscontrolledbyIGVsexhausttemperature
controlnotCPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrol?
Bestregards
Neo
By CSA on 30 June, 2014 - 8:44 am

Neo,
TheIGVpositionreference,CSRGV,istheoutputofaMAXselectblockjustlikeFSRistheoutputofa
MAXselectblock.
TheIGVtemperaturecontrolreferenceisbasicallythesameastheCPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrol
reference.(Someolderunitshada510degFoffset,makingtheIGVexhausttempcontrolreferenceslightly
lower.Newerunitsdon'thavethatoffset.)
ThereasonthatCPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrolisusedastheIGVexhausttemperaturecontrol
referenceisthatitmakeslifesimpler:TheCPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrolreferenceisbeing
calculatedallthetime,anditdoesrepresentthemaximumallowableexhausttemperaturecontrolreference,so
usingitastheIGVexhausttempcontrolreferencemakessense.
Idon'thaveaccesstoanyMarkVIapplicationcodeatthemoment,butIthinktheIGVexhausttempcontrol
referenceiscalledCSRGVXorsomethinglikethat.WhenoperatingonIGVexhausttempcontroltheIGVs
aremodulated(positioned)basedoncomparingtheactualexhausttemperature(TTXM)totheCPDbiased
exhausttempcontrolreference(TTRX)andeitheropenedorclosedtomakeTTXMequaltoTTRX.Alotlike
howCPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrolpositionstheGCVwhentheIGVsarefullopen.Again,that's
howtheSpeedtronicknowswhenit'ssupposedtobeonCPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrol(Base
Load)whentheIGVsarefullopen(attheirmaximumoperatingangle).
Doesthishelp?IGVexhausttempcontrolusestheCPDbiasedexhausttempcontrolreference(TTRX)asit's
referenceforpositioningtheIGVswhenIGVexhausttempcontrolisactiveandenabled.
HavealookathowCSRGVisdetermined,andyouwillfindlotsofnewquestions.
CSA,
Thankyouagainforyourcomment,ithelpsalot.
SowhentheunitisonBaseLoad,theexhausttemperatureiscontrolledbyCPDbiasedexhausttemperature?
andwhentheunitisonPartLoad,itiscontrolledbyIGVexhaustcontrol?
IheardthatwhenitisaCombinedcycle,IGVexhaustcontrolismeanttokeepT4*atmaximumvalue,andif
itisasimplecycle,theexhausttemperatureisnotcontrolled.
WhenclosingtheIGVsonPartloadtokeeptotheT4*atmaximum,howdoestheCPRchange,andCPRin
turnwilldecidethemaximumallowableexhausttemperature.Thatseemstricky.
IwouldliketorefertoCSRGVwhentimeisavailable.
Bestregards
Neo
By CSA on 3 July, 2014 - 8:13 am

Neo,
What'sthis"T4*"?
WecantalkaboutCSRGV;later.OncewefinishwithL4T!WhichshouldbeVERYinterestingfortheunitat
yoursite.
There'snotrickeryinvolved.AtPartLoad(lessthanBaseLoad)theIGVscanbeusedtomaximizeexhaust
temperatureandthemaximumallowableexhausttemperatureatANYtimeisalwaysTTRX.So,theIGVs
justremainatminimumoperatingangleuntilTTXMreachesTTRX.AsfuelincreasesandTTXMwouldtend
toincreasetheIGVsopentokeepTTXMequaltoTTRX.
OncetheIGVsreachmaximumoperatingangleandTTXMequalsTTRXwell,that'sthedefinitionofBase
Load.It'sverysimple,and,again,notrickeryinvolved.
Unitswithoutaheatrecoverysteamgenerator(anHRSG,or"boiler")onthegasturbineexhaust(orunitswith
adiverterintheexhaust,whichcandiverttheexhaustdirectlytoatmosphereinsteadoftotheHRSG)can
operatewithoutIGVexhausttemperaturecontrol(iftheyarenonDLNunits).Thisiscommonlycalled
"simplecycle"(sometimescalled"singlecycle")andismoreefficientthanoperatingwithIGVexhausttemp
controlONbecausetheunitisexhaustingtoatmosphereandthere'snobenefitinmakingexhausttemperature
higherbyrestrictingairflowthroughtheunit.(Thebenefitofmaximizingexhausttemperatureisforthe
overallcombinedcyclewhensteamisbeingproducedwiththegasturbineexhaust.Itactuallyslightly
reducestheefficiencyofthegasturbine(thesimplecycle),butitincreasestheoverallthermalefficiencyofthe
plant(thecombinedcycle)).
By Sameh on 8 July, 2014 - 4:58 am

Neo,
sorryIhaveaquestionmayberelatedtothisdiscussion.GEgasturbineframe6BoldupgradedtoMarkV,at
startupthetemperaturecontrolstartingat40%speed,andthespeedgoingupveryslowupto47%andheld
for2secondsthengoingdown,theIGVangleincontrolfrom34to86.sopleasecanyouhelpmetoovercome
theearlystartingoftemperaturecontrol.
thanks
SamehSalama

Saneh
IthinkwhenyoureferringtotemperaturecontrolitisIGVtemperaturecontrol,right?
IcheckedCSRGVPSandCSRGVV3blocksintheapplicationcode,ifindthatwhentheunitisunder40%
ratedspeed,CSRGVisspecifiedbyCSRGVPS(PartspeedVIGVrefrence).SotheunitshouldnotinIGV
temperaturecontrolmode.CSRGVistheoutputofaminimumselectoroutofIGVtemperaturecontrol,IGV
partspeedcontrolandmaximumopenIGVposition(usually86deg.)
Duringstartup,theIGVwillnormallyopenfrom34deg(Myunit),andreachestheminimumoperatingangle
57deg(Myunit)whentheunitrampedupto85.72%correctedspeed(Myunit).AndithinktheIGV
temperaturecontrolwillnottakeinchargebeforetheunitrampedto100%correctedspeed.AndtheIGV
temperaturecontrolisnotthesameforcombinedcycleunitorsimplecycleunit.
AboveisthethebackgroundknowledgeiknowaboutIGVcontrol.
YoumayshouldcheckthehistorydataofTTXM,CSRGVPS,CSRGVX,TTGXGVandanyothersignalthatis
relatedtoIGVcontroltoseewhetherthereisanyunusual.
Andithinkthebestwayforyouistooffermoreinformation(combinecycleorsimplecycle...),andaskCSA
forhelp,asheistherealmaster.
Hopeithelps.
Bestregards!
Neo
By CSA on 10 July, 2014 - 11:42 am

Neo,
Herearethekindofquestionsoneshouldaskafteracarefulreadingoftheoriginalpost:
WhenwasthecontrolsystemupgradedtoMarkV?
Whendidthisproblemstart?Afteramaintenanceoutage?Afteratripfromload?
WhatProcessAlarmsareactiveduringstarting?
WhatDiagnosticAlarmsareactiveduringstarting?
[Mostpeoplesimplyignoreallalarmsthat'sbecausesomeSpeedtronicturbinecontrolpanelsweresopoorly
commissionedthattheyarecontinuallyanderroneouslyannunciatinglotsofalarms,andoperatorsjust
becomeimmunetothem.Also,somesitedosolittlemaintenanceandupkeepthatalarmscomeandgo,and
somestayforyears.AlarmsareimportantVERYimportantandwhilemost"operators"neverhaveit
properlyexplainedtothemit'soneoftheirmostimportantjobfunctions:tomanagealarms.Managingalarms
meanstotakeactionwheneveranalarmoccurs.First,theyshouldsilenceanyaudiblealarmindication;then
theyshouldreadthealarmtextmessageandacknowledgethealarm.Thentheyneedtotakeactiontoresolve
thealarmwhichisnotjusttochecktoseeiftheturbinehastripped,andifit'sstillrunning,tojustwalkaway.
Resolvingalarmsmeansunderstandingwhatthealarmmessageisindicating,takingactiontoseeifthealarm
messageistrue(suchascheckingtheL.O.HeaderTemperaturetoseeiftheHighL.O.Temperaturealarmis
trueornot),andifitistruetakeappropriateactiontolowertheL.O.temperatureornotifytheappropriate
department/individualtotakeaction,whilecontinuingtomonitortheconditionandlowerloadiftheL.O.
temperaturecan'tbelowered.
DiagnosticAlarmsareNOTnuisancealarmstheyweren'tintendedtobe,butthat'showmostpeopleperceive
them.Alotoftimesit'sfoundthatduringaninvestigationofaseriousforcedoutagethatoneortwoProcess
Alarmshadbeenactiveforsometimeindicatingafailureofsomesensorordevicethatpreventedoperators
fromproperlyrecognizingaseriousconditionasitwasdeveloping.Justbecauseaturbinecontinuestorun
whenanalarm(ProcessorDiagnostic)isannunciateddoesNOTmeantheturbineisrunningasitshould.
So,alwaystrytoremembertoask,"Whatalarmswereannunciated?"(Hereatcontrol.comtheoverwhelming
majorityofquestionersneverrespondtotherequesttolistalarms,probablybecausethereisnoprintedrecord
ofalarms(theprinteriseitherbroken,outofpaper,orunplugged).And,operatorsdon'tlogalarmstothe
OperationsLogastheyshould.But,peopleshouldstillbemadeawarethatalarmsareimportantandthey
shouldnotbeignored(that'soneofourdutiestotrytohelppeoplebebetteroperatorsandtechnicians).]
Whatfuelisbeingburnedduringstarting?
Next,youexplainwhatshouldbehappeningversuswhatisbeingdescribed,followingwithsomedetailsofa
normal,typicalstartup.
Whileit'snotuncommonforunitstohitCPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrolbrieflyduringacceleration
it'sNOTcommonforthemtohitexhausttemperaturecontrolat40%speed.Theusualcauseofaproblemlike
thisisthatthestartingmeansisnotsupplyingsufficienttorqueduringstartingtoacceleratethemachinesothe
Speedtronicisaddingadditionalfueltotrytohelpacceleration.
TheIGVs,iftheyaremodulatedtype,shouldnotmovefromthe"closed"position(typically34degreesangle)
totheminimumoperatingposition(usually57degreesangle)until,asNeosays,about80%speedregardless
ofexhausttemperature.ItseemslikesomelogicisbeingforcedorsomeControlConstanthasincorrectlybeen
modifiedthatiscausingtheIGVstoopenprematurelywhichalsohastheeffectofincreasingtheairflow
throughtheaxialcompressorwhichusuallyincreasesthetorquerequiredfromthestartingmeans,whichisnot
helpingtheproblematall.
Ifthemachineisolder,andthestartingmeansand/orthetorqueconverterhavenotbeenrefurbishedinawhile
it'sverylikelythatinsufficienttorqueisbeingtransmittedtoassistwithacceleration,causingmorefueltobe
admitted,causingtheexhausttemperaturetobeveryhigh(prematurely).
AlotofsiteshavebeensteadilyincreasingstartupandaccelerationFSRsovertimetocompensatefor
degradingstartingmeansand/ortorqueconverters.Thestartingmeans,throughthetorqueconverter,shouldbe
providingtorqueuptoabout5060%speedforaproperlyworkingstartingmeanssystem.Atthatpoint,
usuallytheturbinespeedisgreaterthanthestartingmeans/torqueconverteroutputspeedandtheclutchopens,
andusuallyfuelincreasesslightlytohelpmaintainacceleration.BecausetheIGVsarestillclosed(orshould
be!)theexhausttemperatureisstillincreasingasspeedisincreasing.Usually,exhausttemperaturepeaksjust
aboutthetimetheIGVsshouldbemovingfrom34to57degrees.Andthentheexhausttemperatureshould
generallyreachit'smaximumpeakwhichcanneverbyhigherthantheCPDbiasedexhausttemperature
reference,TTRX,sometimeshittingtheCPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrol(TTRX)buttheunitshould
stillbeaccelerating.ExhausttemperaturewillusuallystartdroppingaroundthetimetheIGVsmoveto57
DGA,andCPDwillalsostartincreasingfaster.
But,thetorqueassistfromthestartingmeans(viathetorqueconverter)isveryimportantespeciallyatlower
turbinespeedsduringacceleration.Withoutit,somuchfuelwouldberequiredthatthefuelwouldbelimited
byCPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrol(FSRTwillbelessthanFSRACCorFSRNorFSRSU)andthe
accelerationrate(TNHA)wouldslow,andifitstartsdeceleratingthentheunitwilltripon"bogdown."
Iftheturbinehasadieselenginestartingmeans,I'veseendirtyairfiltersanddirtyfuelfilterscauselowtorque
output.Ifthereisanywhitesmokecomingfromthedieselengineexhaustthatmeansthereisincomplete
combustioninoneormorecylinderswhichmeansthatfuelisbeingwasterandtorqueproductionislower
thanitshouldbe.Blacksmokeisgoodbutifit'sexcessiveblacksmokethenthedieselstartingmeansis
overloaded.Ifthedieselwasrecentlyserviced,it'snotuncommonforthefuelcontrolrackstobeimproperly
adjusted.Haveyoucheckedthedieselspeedtoseeifit'satit'snormalspeedduringacceleration?(Thesignal
nameisusuallyPN,PN_RPMorPN_PR,orsomethingsimilar.)
Ifthetorqueconverterwasrecentlyrefurbished,therehavebeenseveralincidencesofpoorquality
refurbishmentrecently.Therecanbeproblemswithanysolenoid(s)inthetorqueconverteroilcircuit,aswell
asoilflowproblemsinthetorqueconverteroilcircuit(sometimestherearestrainerswhichneedperiodic
maintenance;sometimestherearemanualvalveswhichneedtobecheckedtomakesuretheyareintheir
correctpositions).
Thenyouaskthequestionertopleasewritebacktoletusknowhowtheyresolvetheproblem.
By TomasEduardo on 6 September, 2016 - 7:26 am

CSV,Inresponsetothefollowingexcerptsfromyourpostbelow:
>
"[Mostpeoplesimplyignoreallalarmsthat'sbecausesome
>Speedtronicturbinecontrolpanelsweresopoorly
>commissionedthattheyarecontinuallyand
>erroneouslyannunciatinglotsofalarms,andoperatorsjust
>becomeimmunetothem...AlarmsareimportantVERYimportantand
>whilemost"operators"neverhaveitproperlyexplainedto
>themit'soneoftheirmostimportantjobfunctions:to
>managealarms.Managingalarmsmeanstotakeactionwhenever
>analarmoccurs.First,theyshouldsilenceanyaudible
>alarmindication;thentheyshouldreadthealarmtext
>messageandacknowledgethealarm.Thentheyneedtotake
>actiontoresolvethealarmwhichisnotjusttocheckto
>seeiftheturbinehastripped,andifit'sstillrunning,
>tojustwalkaway.Resolvingalarmsmeansunderstandingwhat
>thealarmmessageisindicating,takingactiontoseeifthe
>alarmmessageistrue(suchascheckingtheL.O.Header
>TemperaturetoseeiftheHighL.O.Temperaturealarmis
>trueornot),andifitistruetakeappropriateactionto
>lowertheL.O.temperatureornotifytheappropriate
>department/individualtotakeaction,whilecontinuingto
>monitortheconditionandlowerloadiftheL.O.temperature
>can'tbelowered.
>
>DiagnosticAlarmsareNOTnuisancealarmstheyweren't
>intendedtobe,butthat'showmostpeopleperceivethem.A
>lotoftimesit'sfoundthatduringaninvestigationofa
>seriousforcedoutagethatoneortwoProcessAlarmshad
>beenactiveforsometimeindicatingafailureofsome
>sensorordevicethatpreventedoperatorsfromproperly
>recognizingaseriousconditionasitwasdeveloping.Just
>becauseaturbinecontinuestorunwhenanalarm(Processor
>Diagnostic)isannunciateddoesNOTmeantheturbineis
>runningasitshould.
...(that'soneof
>ourdutiestotrytohelppeoplebebetteroperatorsand
>technicians)..."
YouhavepaintedwithaverybroadbrushtheskillsetandqualificationsoftheOperationsDepartmentinGas
Turbinebasedpowerplants.
Icometothissitebecauseitusuallypresentsveryusefulinformation,althoughIreadmanyquestionsfrom
Engineersthatseemsoobvious.
Youareaveryqualified,educated,andproperlytrainedperson,fromyourresponsesconcerningGEGas
Turbines.
Perhapswhatyoushouldhavesaidis"Someoperatorsaren'tawareofhowserioussomeofthesealarmsare"
or"Thereareinstanceswhere...",insteadofinsultingthehighlyskilledoperatorsatgasturbineplants,many
whohavecomethroughtheNavyNuclearProgramorhigherleveluniversityprogramsonpowerplant
operations.
Thissitehasbeenquitehelpfultosomeofourfolks,andIwouldhatetobebannedfordefendingmy
operators.Yourtechnicaladvice,onthewhole,isquiteuseful,butpleaserefrainfrompaintingalloperatorsas
abunchofhelpless,uneducated,unskilledandunmotivatedpersonnelwhoneedhelpindetermininghowto
respondtoanalarm.
KindRegards
By CSA on 8 September, 2016 - 6:56 pm

TomasEduardo,
Yourstatement,"...althoughIreadmanyquestionsfromEngineersthatseemsoobvious...."isverytellingand
revealsyouhavenotexperiencedthewidedisparityinoperationswhichexistsevenintheAmericas,andtoa
largerextentaroundtheworld.
WiththeexceptionofsomeEUcountries(andthosesoontobeexitingtheEU)trainingrequirementsfor
powerplantoperators(gasturbinebasedorotherwise)areverylow,andgettinglower.Powerplantowners
andsupervisorsfalselybelieveautomationwillprotecttheplantfromeverypossibleproblemorfailureeven
operatorinitiatedproblems.
You,sir,areleadingacharmedlife,andworkingwithexNavynukepersonnelwhoMUSTbecapableof
understandingtheworkoftheirpostingandrelyontheirshipmatestokeepeveryonealivewhenatsea,and
haveLOTSoftrainingbeforetheystepaboardashiporsub,meansthelevelofthoughtandcriticalthinkingin
theControlRoomandprobablyintheplantisveryhigh.Youshouldcountyourluckystars,whileatthe
samerealizingthatyoursituationistheexceptionratherthantherule.
Ispecificallysaid"mostpeople"notall,recognizingthatthereareveryqualifiedpeopleintheindustrybut
theyaretheexceptionratherthantherule.Ialsowanttosaythatinmostcasesthefaultliesnotwiththe
operatorortechnician,butwiththepeoplehiringthem.Mosthiringmanagers(notall)arenotwillingtopay
fortraining,worriedthatafterreceivingthetrainingtheemployeeswillleaveforahigherwagesomewhere
elseacrossthestreet,insomecases.
ThereisasayingaboutaCFO(ChiefFinancialOfficer)askinghisCEO(ChiefExecutiveOfficer)aboutthe
riskofinvestingintrainingtheiremployeesonlytohavethemleave.TheCEOreplies,"Whatifwedon't
investintraining,andtheemployessstay?"That'snot(yet)theprevailingwayofthinkingintheivorytower,
orbelow.
Ihopeyouandyouroperatorswillcontinuetoreturntocontrol.combutImoresincerelyhopeyouandyour
operatorswillofferthebenefitofyourexperienceandknowledgetootherspostinghere.Formypart,Iwill
reducetheeditorializingandgeneralizations.Sometimesafterstrugglingwithpeopletotrytogetthemtolook
atP&IDsandalarmstounderstandwhathappenedtotheirplantandhowithappenedonlytobetold,"YOU
JUSTMAKEDAMNSUREITWON'THAPPENAGAIN!"(bymodifyingthecontrolsystemprogramming)
myfrustrationboilsovertomyresponses.
Butthefactremains,yourexperienceandcurrentsituationistheexceptionnottherule;Isincerelyhopeyou
neverlandinalessersituation.Andpleaseacceptmysincereapologyifyouoryouroperatorsfelttaintedby
mybroadbrush(whichcomesfrompainfulpersonalexperience).BelievemewhenItellyouthattheaudible
alarmannunciator(beeper;bell;horn;etc.)inmostControlRoomsistotallydisabled(insomecasesbroken
fromexcessiveuse)andoperatorsdon'tpayanyattentiontoanyalarmswhentheyareannunciated,andmostly
onlywhentheunittrips.
Inmanycasestheirsupervisorsactuallytellthemthecontrolsystemwillprotecttheunitandtheyshouldn't
takeanyactiontoreduceloadorshutdownwithoutfirstobtainingthepermissionofthePlantManager(who's
alwaysgotbotheyesonthespreadsheet).Andthengetsextremelyangrywhen"thecontrolsystem"doesn'tdo
whathethinksitshould,andthere'sawreck.
Again,myapologiesfornotconsideringtherearegoodoperatorsintheworld.IonlywishIranintomoreof
them,moreoften.
By Sameh Salama on 12 July, 2014 - 4:16 am

Neo
thanksalotforyourvaluablereply,myunitissimplecycle.toovercomemyproblemissue(unitcan'treach
theFSNL)IincreasedtheIGVanglefrom34to42fromthebeginningthentheunitreachingtheFSNL
successfully.ontheotherhandwiththeexistingIGVangle34theunitcan'treachingtheFSNL,soplease
advice.
Bestregards
SamehSalama
By Neo on 12 July, 2014 - 11:44 am

SamehSalama:
Itismyhonorthatyouthinkmyresponsehelps.
IadvisetoreadCSA'sresponsecarefully.iamsureithelps.
Ifitstilldoesn'twork,letusworktogetherthen.
BTW,inmyopinion,youshouldnotsetIGVmanuallyduringstart.itmaycausedamage.
Bestregards
Neo
By Neo on 15 July, 2014 - 4:41 am

SamehSalama:
Howiseverythinggoing?
Didyousolvethethermalblockageproblembyincreasingthestartmeanstorque?
Bestregards
Neo

Neo,
Alreadyicheckedthedieselengineloadedspeedwhichwas2320rpmandreplacethetorqueconverterby
refurbishedoneandtheinsidepressurereached120psiastheoldonepressurewas58psi.stillthesame
problem(afterstartingtheturbineexhausttemperaturecomingveryhighinshorttime(20%speedtemp140C,
40%speed500C)asthetemperaturecontrolstartingfrom40%ofspeed.furthermoreiremovethefuelnozzles
andcleaned.
foryourkindinformationthisproblemnotfoundbeforethelastMIsince5monthsago.
Ineedtosharewithsomecontrolsnapshots
thanksalotforyouralwayssupport.
SamehSalama
By Neo on 22 July, 2014 - 10:09 am

SamehSalama:
Gladtoreceiveyourreply.Butthisisoutofmycapability,letsaskCSAforhelp.
Andyourproblemseemscomplicated.Ifitisnotcausedbylackoftorqueproducedbystartmeans,willitbe
thefuelsystemisn'tcalibratedproperly?OrthecontrolconstantisnotsetproperlyinFSRSUblock.Itreally
confusesme.
IhopeCSAwillgiveguidance.
Bestregards!
Neo

CSA,
Alreadyicheckedthedieselengineloadedspeedwhichwas2320rpmandreplacethetorqueconverterby
refurbishedoneandtheinsidepressurereached120psiastheoldonepressurewas58psi.stillthesame
problem(afterstartingtheturbineexhausttemperaturecomingveryhighinshorttime(20%speedtemp140C,
40%speed500C)asthetemperaturecontrolstartingfrom40%ofspeed.furthermoreiremovethefuelnozzles
andcleaned.
foryourkindinformationthisproblemnotfoundbeforethelastMIsince5monthsago.
Ineedtosharewithsomecontrolsnapshots.
By Chiranjeevi on 15 May, 2017 - 10:39 am

DoesthefinalblockofCSRGVisminselectblockormaxselectblockofabovestatedvariables?
By sardar99 on 16 May, 2017 - 3:21 am

Hi,
>TheIGVpositionreference,CSRGV,istheoutputofaMAX
>selectblockjustlikeFSRistheoutputofaMAXselect
>block.
Ithink.FSRisoutputofminimumselectgate,andat700DegreeFTTXMIGVstartsopeningifIGVtemp
selected"ON".
Thanks
GT not running at 100% rated RPM in Isochronous mode.
GT is not running at 100% rated speed when run in Isochronous mode but runs at 100% rated
RPM when run in Droop mode.
By Sanjay Solanki on 25 June, 2014 - 11:54 am

Wehavetwoidenticalgasturbinesforpowergenerationinourcaptivepowerplantforourfertilizercomplex.
BoththemachinesareGEframe5packagedgenerators(PG5361)manufacturedbyHitachi.Botharerunning
onMArKVIcontrolsystem.
Let'scallthemGT#1andGT#2.
GT#1isnotabletoattain100%ratedRPM(5105)whenruninIsochronousmode.Whileitrunsat100%rated
RPMwhenruninDroopmodeandsynchronizedwiththegreed.Duetothisthefrequencyofthegenerated
currentbythegeneratorremainsslightlylessthan50HZ(standardinIndia).Thereisnosuchproblemin
GT#2(GT#2isinstalled10yearslaterthanGT#1,whichisinstalledin1985).
Howcanwerectifytheproblem?Pleaseadvice.
By CSA on 25 June, 2014 - 4:03 pm

SanjaySolanki,
It'smostlikelythatsomeonehasdisturbedtheIsochronousspeedreference:TNRI.Itshouldbe100.0%,andit
cangetchangedwhensomeonetriestoadjusttheloadonanIsochronousmachinebyclickingonRAISEor
LOWERSPEED/LOAD.(It'snotpossibleforanoperatortocontrolloadonanIsochmachinenotbyclicking
ontheRAISEorLOWERSPEED/LOADtargets.)
So,checkTNRIandreportbackthevalue.Ifit'snot100.0%,thenwhentheunitisrunninginIsochronous
modenexttime,someonewillhavetousetheRAISEorLOWERSPEED/LOADtargetstogetitascloseto
100.0%aspossible.
IfTNRIisnot100.0%,pleasewritebackandletusknowandwecanlookatsomeotherparameters.
Inanycase,writebacktoletusknowhowyoufarewithresolvingtheproblem.

ThanksforthequickresponseCSA!
Thisturbineisundershutdownformaintenancenow.I'vecheckedandconfirmedthatTNRIwasactuallyless
than100.0%,andI'llcheckandreportagainwhenweruntheturbine.
I'veasmalldoubt,ifIincreaseTNRIthisway,willithaveanyundesirableeffectonotherparameters?
By CSA on 26 June, 2014 - 12:39 pm

Sanjay,
Weliketheword'question'insteadofdoubt(checkyouOxford'sandyou'llseewhy),andtoanswer
yourquestion,no;youwon'taffectanyotherparametersoroperationifyouchangeit.Again,itcanonlybe
changedbysomeoperatorclickingonRAISEorLOWERSPEED/LOAD.
YoucanlikelyselectIsochnow(orforcetheIsochpermissiveforenablingTNRI)andchangeTNRIwiththe
unitoff.Justremembertoremovetheforcewhenyou'redone.!.!.!
ItwouldhavebeennicehadyoutoldushowmuchthefrequencywaslowwheninIsochandwhatthevalueof
TNRIis....Enquiringmindswanttoknow.
Pleasewritebackwiththerequestedinformation,andthenwhentheunitnextrunsinIsochtoletusknowif
allyourquestionshavebeenanswered.

Thefrequencywas49.8~9Hz.I'mnotabletotellyouthevalueofTNRI(asI'mnotallowedtoopentoolbox.
I'vetoaskourinstrumentationengineersandtheyhaven'tnotedthevalue.)
AfieldsupportengineerfromGErecommendedchangingGCVservoandwedidthat.Todaywecheckedthe
operationofthismachineonIsoandthefrequencywas50Hz(TNRIisalso100%now).
I'veonemoreQUESTION.AspermyreadingofGEmanual,FSRshouldincreaseexponentiallyin
accelerationmode(14HAwasdisplayedonthestartupscreen)butitwasincreasingveryslowlywhenwe
startedthemachinetoday.Pleasepointoutpossiblecausesandforthis.
PS:IcheckedOxford's:D
Thanksforthequickreplyagain!
GEfieldsupportengineerrecommendedchangingGCVservo,wechangedit.Nowtheturbineisrunningat
ratedRPMinIsomode.
Frequencywas49.8~9Hzbeforethis.I'mnotabletotellyouthevalueofTNRI(asI'mnotallowedtoaccess
toolbox,I'vetoaskourinstrumentationengineersforitandthey'venotnotedthevalue).
I'veonemoreQUESTION!
TodaywetestedtheGTonIsomode.AspermyreadingofGEmanual,FSRACCshouldincrease
exponentiallywhen14HAsensessuitablespeedinthestartupsequence.ButFSRACCwasincreasingvery
slowly.Pleasepointoutpossiblecauses.
PS:IcheckedOxford's.:D
By CSA on 27 June, 2014 - 12:27 pm

Sanjay,
Iwon'tevencommentontherecommendationtochangetheservovalveexcepttosaythatIwishIowned
Moog.Youjustreplacedaperfectlygoodservovalve,whichjustincreasedMoog'sprofit.(Andiftheservo
valvewaspurchasedfromGE,thenyoualsoincreasedGE'sprofitsandforthatIthankyouasanownerofa
lotofGEsharesofstock.)However,iftheservovalvewasprovidedunderwarrantyfromGE(inotherwords,
atGE'sexpense),thenI'mnotveryhappybecausetherewentsomeofmydividends.
Asforyourreadingofthemanual,ifyoucouldcopythesectionthatleadsyoutobelievethatFSRACC
increaseexponentiallyafter14HA,itwouldbehelpfulinansweringyourquestion.
14HAisan"intermediate"speedlevelthatindicatestheunithasreachedreachedaspeedthatisusuallyaround
60%(thevalueofTNK14HA1)duringstartingandaccelerationtoFSNL(FullSpeedNoLoad).Forsome
machines,14HAissaidtobe"selfsustaining"speedmeaningthattheunitdoesn'trequireanyfurtherassist
fromthestartingmeanstocontinueacceleratingtoFSNL.
FSRACCdoesn'thaveanythingtodowith14HA.FSRACCisafuelstrokereferencevaluethatisintendedto
bejustslightlyhigherthanFSRNand"track"FSRNupanddownwhenoperatingonspeedcontrol
(specifically,Droopspeedcontrol).FSRACChastwobasicfunctions;first,onnewerSpeedtronicturbine
controlpanelsitisusedtocontrolthefuelduringaccelerationtomaintainanaccelerationrate.TNHA(the
actualaccelerationrate)iscomparedtotheaccelerationratereference(TNHAR)andfuelisadjustedtomake
TNHAtrackTNHAR.(IhavetonoteherethatearlydigitalGESpeedtronicturbinecontrolsystemsdidn'tuse
FSRACCinthisway,andevensomeMarkVswereverypoorlyprogrammedandFSRACCforacceleration
controldidn'tworkverywellifatall.)
Second,whentheturbineisatratedspeedFSRACCstill"tracks"FSRNandisjustslightlygreaterthanFSRN.
IfsomethingweretosuddenlycauseTNHAtoincreasethenFSRACCwouldacttolimitFSRtotrytoprevent
anoverspeedcondition.So,ifFSRACCweretobeincreased"exponentially"(I'mpresumingto100%)the
overaccelerationrateprotectionwouldbelost.
It'sextremelyraretoseeFSRACCbethecontrollingvalueofFSRduringnormaloperationatratedspeed
exceptonmachineswherethegridfrequencyisoscillatingwildly.
FSRSUisusuallyincreasedto100%aftertheunitreachesratedspeed,tokeepitfromadverselyaffectingunit
operation(sincestartupiscompleteandtheunithasreachedratedspeed).
Hopethishelps!

ThanksCSAforyourvaluablereply!
Iputmyquestionthewrongway.HereI'mcopyingthetextfromGEmanual,
"Atthecompletionofwarmupperiod,startupcontrolincreasesFSRexponentiallytoACCELsettingfor
"ACCELERATIONLIMIT".Asfuelisincreased,theturbinebeginstheaccelerationphaseofstartup.When
theturbineoverrunsthestartingdevice,theclutchwillbethrownout.Speedrelay14HAindicatestheturbineis
accelerating."
Andregardingtheservovalvereplacement,I'vestartedworkingonaGTjust2monthsbeforeandI'munder
training.NoonewilllistenifItellthemnottochangetheservo,butIagreewithyouthatwechangeda
perfectlyworkingservo(andincreasedMOOG'sprofit).
By CSA on 28 June, 2014 - 12:28 pm

Sanjay,
It'sverydifficulttounderstandhowreasoning,logicalpeoplecandecidethatiftheturbinerunsfineinDroop
speedcontrolthatbecauseitdoesn'tmaintaindesiredfrequencyinIsochronousspeedcontrolthattheproblem
couldbetheGCVservovalvebecausethatsameGCVservovalveiscontrollingthesameGCVregardlessof
thegovernormode.
TheGCVservovalveget'sitsignalfromtheSpeedtronic,andifthereferencefortheSpeedtronicisn'tcorrect
thentheGCVservovalveisn'tgoingtocontroltothedesiredparameter.
IftheGCVisstablewhenoperatinginDroopspeedcontrolmode,andit'salsostablewhenoperatingin
Isochronousspeedcontrolmode,whywouldsomeonethinkthatchangingtheservovalvewouldmakethe
turbinespeedchangeinIsochmodeversusDroopmode?
Anyway,Icansympathizewithyourdilemma.Thereistoomuchtribalknowledgeandtoomanymythsand
falsehoodssurroundingservovalves,andevenGEfieldservicepersonnel(onecanhardlycallthemengineers
whentheycan'treasonthroughasituationlikethisandcometoamorelogicalconclusion)believealotofthe
misinformation.
Ithinkwhatyou'rereferringtoisa"subFSR"valuecalledFSRSU_IAbutthat'sjustaguess,andprobably
notaverygoodone,either;sorry.Ireallydon'tunderstandexactlywhatthequotedparagraphistryingtosay;
it'sverynebulous.
IusuallycautioneveryonereadingGEwrittendocumentationtocarefullyreadeverythingasyouhaveand
thinkitthroughandquestionit.But,theONLYdocumentthatreallydescribesexactlyhowanyturbine
operatesistheapplicationcodeorsequencingrunningintheSpeedtronicpanelbecausethat'swhatthe
Speedtronicisusingtocontrolandprotecttheturbine,notwhat'swritteninsomedocumentinsomemanual,
whichisreallyjustsomeone'sattempttodescribetheINTENTofwhat'shappening,notexactlywhat's
happening.
By Neo on 29 June, 2014 - 1:36 am
CSA,
Youexplanationsarealwaysenlightening,always!
Butoneproblemoccurstome:
AsbothofIGVsandFSR(right?)haveabilitytoregulateexhausttemperature,howtomakesurewhenthe
IGVsarenotatmaximumoperatingangle,theexhausttemperatureiscontrolledbyIGVsexhausttemperature
controlnotCPDbiasedexhausttemperaturecontrol?
Bestregards
Neo
By Sanjay Solanki on 29 June, 2014 - 12:01 pm

Neo,
I'mgivingherethelinktoathreadinwhichCSAhasverywellexplainedtheconceptofexhausttemperature
control.Havealookatit.
http://www.control.com/thread/1403944262
Hopethishelps!
By CSA on 29 June, 2014 - 1:11 pm

Neo,
Wrongthread,perhaps?

ThanksforcontinuingtheconversationCSA.
IpersonallybelievedthatthereissomeproblemsomewhereintheSpeetronicsystemwithsomelogicor
variable(asyoupointedoutTNRI)thatiswhyIstartedthethreadhere.
Wecanclosethisthreadnow.ButI'vearequest,Iwanttolearneverythingaboutgasturbines(Imaybetoo
muchambitious)sothatIcansolveproblemslikethisandothersinfuture.
I'vestudiedandlearnedtheP&IDsforourmachine.I'veseenmostoftheequipmentsinthefieldtoo.Ican
showyouallthedevicesfromwhichtheSpeedtronicsystemtakesitsinput.Iknowthelocationsofallthe
pressureandtemperatureswitches,transmitters,vibrationprobes,thermocouples,etcandIknowtheirworking
principles.
AsstatedaboveIwanttolearneverything(andIknowthefieldisveryvast),pleasesuggestmehowshouldI
proceedforefficientlearning.ShouldIstartanewthreadorcanwecontinuehere?
I'llbeverymuchthankfultoyou.
By CSA on 29 June, 2014 - 1:17 pm
Sanjay,
YouarewellonyourwaytolearninghowGEdesignheavydutygasturbinesoperate,andhowtotroubleshoot
themifyou'vealreadystartedstudyingthepipingschematics(P&IDs)andgoneoutandlocatedallofthe
controlsystemfielddevices!Goodonyou,mate!!!Ijustcan'tseemtogetpeopletounderstandjusthow
criticallyimportanttheP&IDsare,andhowimportantitistoknowwherethedevicesontheP&IDsareinthe
field.
Ithinkyoushouldbeaskingyourquestionsinindividualthreads,ratherthanpiggybackingonthisone.Tryto
chooseagoodSubjectforthethread,andwe'lltrytodoourbesttoansweryourquestions.
Itwillhelpusifyouwilltellusalittleaboutthemachineatyoursite.Whatkindofcombustors(conventional
(diffusionflame),orDLN)doesthemachinehave?Whatfuel(s)doesthemachineburn?Howoldisthe
machine?Howisthemachineoperated(you'vealreadytoldusthatthetwomachinescanbeoperatedinIsoch
mode,butisyourplantalwaysseparatedfromthegrid(whichmightbeablessinginsomepartsofthe
world!)?Dothemachinesexhaustintoaboileranddoestheconfigurationhaveabypassstack?
Anyway,askaway!
By Sanjay on 30 June, 2014 - 8:58 am

ThankyouverymuchCSA!
I'mawayforaweekonminivacation.I'llaskmyquestionsinseparatethreadsasandwhenIfeeltheneedto
ask.I'llalsowritemyplanonhowI'mgoingtodividemylearningofGTinvarioussectionsandsubsections.
It'llbeofgreathelpformeifyousparesometimetogiveyourvaluablesuggestionsthen.
I'llgiveallthedetailsyouaskedforinmynextthread.
seeyousoon..
By SB on 15 May, 2015 - 4:34 am

CSA,
Hello!(afteralongtimethough)
>It'smostlikelythatsomeonehasdisturbedtheIsochronous
>speedreference:TNRI.Itshouldbe100.0%
TodaywehadtorunUnit1onISOduetoUnit2tripping.Unit1isnotoperatingat100%ratedRPM.Asper
ourpreviousdiscussionyousuggestedthatTNRIshouldbe100%fortheturbinetorunat100%ratedspeed.I
checkedTNRIwhentheunitwasrunningonISOanditwas100%.Stilltheunitisnotrunningatthefullrated
speed.
Pleasegiveyourvaluablesuggestions.
P.S.ThisisanoldthreadsoletmeremindyouthatUnit1and2areidenticalGEFrame5GasTurbines
withoutDLNcombustors.IthinkI'llhavetoprovidemoreinfo,pleaseletmeknow.
By CSA on 15 May, 2015 - 11:02 am
SB,
Whenyouwritetotellthattheunitisn'trunningat100%ratedRPM,pleasedotellwhatRPMtheunitIS
runningatwhenit'sNOTrunningat100%RPM.Itwouldalsobehelpfulifyoutoldtheloadtheunitwas
runningatwhenitwasn'trunningat100%RPM.AndwhatthevalueofTNHwaswhenitwasn'trunningat
100%RPM.
There'sahugegapinknowledgeabout100%RPMforGEdesignheavydutygasturbineswhichusereduction
gearstodrivesynchronousgenerators.5105RPMisthedesignspeedforthegasturbineaxialcompressor.
Whetheritrunsat5094or5105or5129o45134RPMdoesn'tmattermuchtotheefficiencyofthegas
turbinethoseRPMsarejustslightlyoffthe5105RPMdesignvalueand,again,theyreallydon'taffect
efficiencyoroutputverymuch.Thesameistruefortheturbinesectionwhetheritrunsat5094or5105or
5129or5134RPMdoesn'taffectefficiencyoroutputverymuch.
Thepeoplewhotakeachunkofmetalandcutitintoatoothedgearassemblyhavetheabilitytoanalyzethe
grainstructureofthatchunkofmetalandmakedeterminationsaboutthewidthoftheteethtocuttomaximize
thestrengthofthegears.Someneedtobealittlewider;someneedtobealittlenarrower.Knowingthatthe
gasturbineandaxialcompressordon'tneedtorunexactlyat5105RPMandcanrunperfectlyacceptablyina
smallrangearound5105RPMtheythenchoosethebesttoothwidthwhichresultsinaparticulargearratio
whichmaymakethegasturbineandaxialcompressorrunat50940r5105or5129or5134RPM.The
reduction(load)gearboxnameplatedefineswhatis100%RPMnottheControlSpecification,the
reductiongearboxnameplate.Fullstop.Period.Endofdiscussion.
Thereductiongearboxnameplatedefinesthegasturbine(andaxialcompressor)speedwhichcorrespondsto
thesynchronousspeedofthegenerator.Ifthegeneratorisatwopole,50Hzmachine,theoutputofthegear
boxneedstobe3000RPM.AndthenameplatesayswhattheinputRPMwillbeforthenecessaryoutput
RPM.NottheControlSpecificationtheControlSpecificationwillalmostalwayscite100%speedas5105
becausetheControlSpecificationisrelatedtothegasturbineandaxialcompressor,andwe(now)knowthat
theaxialcompressor(andgasturbine)don'tneedtorunatexactly5105RPM,butcanrunjustfineat5094,or
5105,or5129or5134RPM.
IhaveevenseentwoFrame5s,installedatthesametime,sittingsidebyside,commissionedsimultaneously,
havetwodifferent100%RPMsettingsintheSpeedtroniccontrolpanel.Why?Becausetwodifferentfield
servicepersonscommissionedtheunits,andinGE,acommissioningpersongetstodowhateverhewantsto
doandhiswayistherightwayandanyoneelse'swayisthewrongway.So,onepersondecidedthevalue
shouldbe5105,andtheotherpersonlookedatthereductiongearboxnameplateandputthepropervaluein
theSpeedtronicfor100%RPMthevalueofturbine/compressorspeedthatcorrespondedto3600RPM(that
sitewasinacountrythathada60HZsystem).
So,itwouldbeveryhelpfulifwealsoknewwhatfrequencythegeneratoroutputwasatwhentheturbine
wasn'trunningat100%RPM.ANDyouneedtolocatethereductiongearboxnameplatesforBOTH
machines,takepicturesofbothofthem,andthenwritebackwiththereductiongearspeeds(input/output)for
bothmachines.
AbouttheonlyotherthingIcansuggestwhichmightbetheproblemisthatthereisasmalldeadbandfor
Isochronousspeedcontrol,+/0.13%,ifIrecallcorrectly.Idon'trecalltheexactnameoftheControlConstant
value(Ithinkit'sTNKRn,where'n'issomevaluebetween0and7),butit'spossiblethatit'sslightlydifferent
ononemachinethantheother.
Rememberthe100%speedvalueoftheturbine(andaxialcompressor)is100.00000%dependentonthe
reductiongearboxnameplatevaluenothingelse.Ifthereductiongearboxrequires5094RPMtoproduce
3000RPMtodrivethegeneratorat50.0Hz,thenthe100%speedsetpointforthegasturbine(andaxial
compressor)drivingthattwopole,50HZgeneratoris5094RPMandthat'sthevaluethatshouldbeinthe
Speedtronicfor100%speed.TheSpeedtronicisgoingtoconvertthefrequencyfromtheturbine(andaxial
compressor)shaftspeedpickupstopercentbasedonthevalueinthe100%speedsetpointfield.
Lookingforwardtotheanswerstoalltherequestsforinformationinordertobeabletoprovidemore
information.
By SB on 16 May, 2015 - 9:18 pm

CSA,
Thankyouforthequickreply.
>pleasedotellwhatRPMtheunitISrunningatwhenit'sNOTrunning>at100%RPM.Itwouldalsobe
helpfulifyoutoldtheloadtheunit>wasrunningatwhenitwasn'trunningat100%RPM.Andwhatthevalue
>ofTNHwaswhenitwasn'trunningat100%RPM.
TheUnitwasrunningat50855089RPM.Theloadwasaround15MW.TNHwas99%
>whatfrequencythegeneratoroutputwasatwhentheturbinewasn't>runningat100%RPM.ANDyouneed
tolocatethereduction
>gearboxnameplatesforBOTHmachines,takepicturesofboth
>ofthem,andthenwritebackwiththereductiongearspeeds
>(input/output)forbothmachines.
Frequencywas49.89.ThereductiongearboxnameplatesforUnit1and2areidentical.Inputspeed=5106
RPMandOutputspeed=3000RPM
>AbouttheonlyotherthingIcansuggestwhichmightbethe
>problemisthatthereisasmalldeadbandforIsochronous
>speedcontrol,+/0.13%
I'llhavetoasktheinstrumentationpersonneltoopenToolboxandcheckthis.I'llreportback.
TheunitisnowrunningonDroopmodeandisperfectlyfollowingtheISOmachineandisrunningat100%
speed.
PleaseletmeknowifIneedtoprovidemoreinformation.
Thankyouforyourtime.
By CSA on 18 May, 2015 - 9:27 am

SB,
Whentheunitthatdoesn'thavespeedissueswhenrunninginIsochmodeisinIsochmode,whatexactlyis
thespeed,TNH,TNRIandfrequency?Pleaseprovidedatawithatleastone,preferablytwo,decimalplaces.
We'resplittinghairshere,whichmeanstheaccuracyoftherunningconditionsseemstobemorecriticalthanit
needbe.49.9Hzisbetterthanalotofgridsevenonagoodday.Andwedon'tknowwhatlevelofaccuracy
you'reapplyingtothesecondunitexcepttosayitrunsat"100%",whichmaybe99.96or100.05.
AnotherthingI'veseenisthatsomeHMIdisplaysareconfiguredtodisplaymoredecimalplacesthanothers.
AND,ifyoucouldprovidetheIsochdeadbandvaluesforbothunitsthatmaybeinformative.(AgainIcan't
recalltheexactnameoftheControlConstant,butIthinkit'soneoftheTNKRnarrayvalues.TheConstant
shouldhaveavalueofsomethinglike0.13%.)
The"problem"maynotbeintheunitthatdoesn'trunaswellasperceivedbutintheotherunitthatseemingly
runsbetter.Ibelievethe"problem"isamismatchinsomeconfigurationvaluebutitisfrustratingnotbeing
abletogetinformationinamoretimelymanner.
Pleasewritebackwiththerequestedinformation.
By SB on 19 May, 2015 - 4:03 am

CSA,
Thankyouforyourreply.
>Whentheunitthatdoesn'thavespeedissueswhenrunningin
>IsochmodeisinIsochmode,whatexactlyisthespeed,
>TNH,TNRIandfrequency?Pleaseprovidedatawithatleast
>one,preferablytwo,decimalplaces.
TNH=100.0Frequency=50.0Hz.I'mnotabletogetthevalueofTNRIasofnow.
>We'resplittinghairshere,whichmeanstheaccuracyofthe
>runningconditionsseemstobemorecriticalthanitneed
>be.49.9Hzisbetterthanalotofgridsevenonagood
>day.Andwedon'tknowwhatlevelofaccuracyyou're
>applyingtothesecondunitexcepttosayitrunsat
>"100%",whichmaybe99.96or100.05.
Actuallyslightlylowerfrequencyisnotaproblemforus,butIwanttoknowwhyitisso.Andasyoumay
rememberI'maskingquestionstogainsomeknowledge.I'mnotassignedthetaskofsolvingthisproblem,
evenpeopledon'twantmetotrytounderstandthisproblem.
>AnotherthingI'veseenisthatsomeHMIdisplaysare
>configuredtodisplaymoredecimalplacesthanothers.
OurHMIdisplaysonlyonedecimalplace.
>AND,ifyoucouldprovidetheIsochdeadbandvaluesforboth
>unitsthatmaybeinformative.(AgainIcan'trecallthe
>exactnameoftheControlConstant,butIthinkit'soneof
>theTNKRnarrayvalues.TheConstantshouldhaveavalueof
>somethinglike0.13%.)
I'lltrytoprovidethedataasap.
>The"problem"maynotbeintheunitthatdoesn'trunas
>wellasperceivedbutintheotherunitthatseeminglyruns
>better.Ibelievethe"problem"isamismatchinsome
>configurationvaluebutitisfrustratingnotbeingableto
>getinformationinamoretimelymanner.
IknowthatI'mnotabletoprovidetherequireddataintimelymanner,butIcannothelpthat.Sorryforthat.
Thanksforbeingpatient.IfyouwishtodiscontinuereplyingtothisthreadI'llnotinsistyoumuchtodoso.I
wishyou'llprovideyourguidanceandexperienceinmylearning.
By CSA on 19 May, 2015 - 12:25 pm
SB,
It'sreallydifficulttotroubleshootaSpeedtronicturbinecontrolpanelfromtheCIMPLICITYdisplays;they
justdon'tupdateveryfast(fasterthanmanyHMIapplications,butstillnotreallygoodfortroubleshooting),
theyarequiteoftenconfiguredincorrectlyorlacksufficientdecimalplaces,andCIMPLICITYisnotvery
consistentwhenroundingnumbers.
Iagreethatitshouldbepossiblefortwoseeminglysimilarturbines,bothwiththesameturbinecontrolsystem
(actually,wedon'tknowifboththeMarkVIswereinstalledatthesametime,orifbothareSIMPLEXorboth
areTMRoroneofeach)wouldtheoreticallybecapableofnearlyidenticalcontrolparameters.But,again,the
differencesherearenegligible.Ifyouwerelookingatanalogmetersyouwouldbarelybeabletodiscernany
differenceatallandthat'soneoftheknocksondigitalcontrolsystemsanddigitalmetering:sometimesthere's
toomuchdataandtoomuchresolution.
WithoutbeingabletogetmeaningfuldatafromToolboxwithconsistentdecimalplacesit'sreallydifficultto
tellexactlywhatthecauseofthis"difference"is.Iwouldventurethat49.9HZisbetterregulationthanthe
nationalorlocalgridinyourareaonagooddayespeciallyifit'saconsistent49.9Hz.
OperatorsshouldbeallowedaccesstoToolboxforfamiliarizationandtroubleshooting.IfToolboxismarked
withaReadOnlyattributewhichitshouldALWAYSbeexceptwhenmakingmodificationsto
configurationorcalibrationthenwhenit'sopenednoonecanmakeorsaveanychangestothe
file/configuration.Andmostchangesincludingforcinglogicandsuchrequireknowledgeoftheappropriate
password(andaToolboxfilethatismarkedReadWrite).So,thereshouldbenoissueswithoperatorsopening
aReadOnlyversionofToolboxforinformation,familiarizationandunderstanding.Iwouldrecommendthat
afteranymodificationsorchanges,acopyofthemostrecentToolboxfilebecreatedwithauniquenamethe
operatorscanrememberandthefileattributeshouldbemarkedReadOnly.Then,operatorscanopen"their"
fileandsurftotheirheart'scontentwithoutinterruptingorcausinganyissues.(Iknowthisisastretchfor
mostMaintenanceManagersandevenforOperationsManagers,allowingoperatorstohaveaccesstoToolbox;
butwiththeproperprecautionsasmentionedthereshouldbenoissuesaslongasnooperatorgoesrogueand
decidestoforcelogic(whichisamultistepprocessrequiringapassword))ormakechangestoControl
Constants,whichnooneshoulddowithoutunderstandingtheeffectsofmakingsuchachange.
Iapplaudyoufortryingtounderstandwhythisminutedifferenceexists,andIevenconcurthereshouldbea
discerniblereasonandresolutiontotheissueoratleastareasonableexplanation.But,ifyou'rebeholdento
theI&CorMaintenanceDepartmentforassistanceandaccesstoToolboxthenthisisgoingtotakealongtime
andprobablywillnotberesolvedinourlifetimeorevenbeforetheMarkVIisreplacedwiththeMarkVIII
(NO;there'snoMarkVIIIyet,thoughthereisnewChinesemade/programmedGEcontrolsystemhardware
outonthemarketforturbinecontrolretrofits...).
IsuggestyouworkwithyoursupervisorsandtheI&C/MaintenanceDept.supervisorstoallowaccessto
Toolbox,andthenwecantrytotroubleshootthisissue.Withoutsuchaccessit'sgoingtobeextremelydifficult
tocontinue.
Hopethishelps!
By SB on 19 May, 2015 - 10:51 pm

CSA,
Thankyouforthereply.
BothourunitsarerunningTMRMark6,botharecommissionedatdifferenttimes.Unit2wasupgradedfrom
Mark4toMark6followedbyUnit1.
InyourrepliestootherthreadsIreadyouradviceofmakingacopyofm6bfileandmarkingitReadOnlyand
usingitforlearningpurposes.AndalsoIcametoknowofdifferentprivilegelevelsandpasswordsforusing
Toolboxfromreadingyourpostsontheforum.OnceItriedtoexplainallthistoourI&Cpersonneland
requestedhimtoletmeallowaccesstoToolbox,butforsomereasonsbeyondmycomprehensiontheydidn't.
I'lltryagain.
RecentlyUnit2hastrippedduetosome"mysteriouscontrolsystemfault",everybodyisbusyanalyzing
it(Experthasalsobeencalledin)andI'llhavetowaittilltheysortoutthethings.I'venotpostedanewthread
fordiscussingthistrippingcauseIknowthatI'llhavetoprovidelotofinformationwhichI'llnotbeabletodo
inatimelymanner.3cards(VPRO,VCMIandUCVE)hasbeenchangedsofar(I'mreadingGEH6421_vol_ii
togetabetterideaofallthiscards)andstilleverything'snotalright.Processor"S"isunabletocommunicate
withotherprocessors.Ireadlotofthreadsregardingthisandothersimilarissuesontheforum.
TherewasanalarmALMARMXMITSUSPENDED.CPUSWITCHEDpriortotripping.I'vealsoread45
threadsrelatedtothis.IgotsomeideabutI'mnotabletounderstanditfully.It'llbegoodifyoushareyour
knowledgeregardingthisalarmhereormaybeIcanpostanewthreadifyoupreferso.
Andyes,there'salsoaseriousbatterygroundissueonthisUnit.
ThankyouforhelpingmelearnGEheavydutygasturbinecontrolsystem.
By SB on 5 March, 2016 - 11:06 am

CSA,
Thisisaveryoldthreadbutasitseemsthatourproblemissolvednow,I'mpostinghere.
LastweekoneGETAcametooursite(toresolvesomeotherissue),wecheckedthevalueofTNRIanditwas
100%.TNHwas99.8%.AspermyknowledgeTNHshouldalsobe100%asitfollowsTNRI,butitisnot.The
GETAtoldmeaboutFSKRN3,whichis3.13%/%.FurtherhesaidthatthismucherrorisallowedinTNHand
thatisthereasonTNHislessthanTNRI.ButifthiserrorisallowedthenTNHshouldalsobemorethan100%
sometimes,butthatisnothappening.I'mnotfullysatisfiedbyhisexplanation.I'llbeverythankfultoyouif
youtakethetimetoexplainthis.I'llprovideanydataintimelymannerifrequired.
CSA,I'mwaitingforyourvaluablereply.
By CSA on 7 March, 2016 - 10:54 am

SB,
Hmmm....
I'verereadtheentirethread,acoupleoftimes,andI'mnotreallysureaboutalotofthings.
Doestheplantoperatesometimesinparallelwiththegrid,andothertimesindependentlyofthegrid?
WasthemachineoperatinginIsochspeedcontrolwhentheGETAwasonsite?
WhatisthevalueofFSKRN3ontheothermachineatyoursite?
WhatwastheloadonthemachineatthetimeyouwereobservingTNH?
Idon'thaveaccesstomyarchivesofpastjobstolookspecificallyatotherjobstoseewhatthevalueof
FSKRN3was,nortolookatthealgorithmtoseeexactlywhatFSKRN3does.Canyoutelluswhichalgorithm
FSKRN3isusedinIsuspectitmightbeaversionofFSRNVn,where"n"istheversionnumber(2,or3,most
likely),butthat'sjustaguessonmypart.
IfIremembercorrectly,whenaGEdesignheavydutygasturbinegeneratorwithaSpeedtronicturbine
controlsystemisoperatinginIsochspeedcontrolindependentofagrid(so,in"islandmode")thetypicalvalue
forthespeed/frequencydeadbandis0.13%sothefrequencyisallowedtovarybetween99.87%and
100.13%.So,thefrequencywon'talwaysbeexactly100.0%,butitshouldbelessthanapproximately99.87%
(unlessthereisasudden,bigincreaseinload)normorethanapproximately100.13%(unlessthereisasudden,
bigdecreaseinload).And,iftheloadisnotverystablethenit'spossibleforthespeed/frequencytobe
constantlyvaryingbetween99.87%and100.13%.
IseemtorecallthatthetypicalvalueofFSKRN3isusually1.00%/%(sinceit'sagain),andsoitwouldseem
someonehastriedto"tune"Isochspeedcontrolatyoursite.But,thisisalsojustaSWAG(ScientificWild
ArsedGuess)sinceIdon'thaveaccesstoanyoldfiles/drawingsatthiswriting.
Isochspeedcontrolshouldn'tbeusedwhenoperatinginparallelwithagrid,andunlessIsochLoadSharingis
usedontwoormoremachinesoperatinginparallelindependentlyofalargergridthenonlyonemachine
shouldbeoperatinginIsochspeedcontroliftwoormoremachinesareoperatinginparallel.There'salotwe
don'tknowabouttheconfigurationofyoursite,soit'sreallydifficulttosayforcertain.
By sbsolanki on 8 March, 2016 - 6:19 am

CSA,
>Doestheplantoperatesometimesinparallelwiththegrid,and
>othertimesindependentlyofthegrid?
theplantoperatesonIslandmodealways.
>WasthemachineoperatinginIsochspeedcontrolwhentheGETAwasonsite?
yes,themachinewasoperatinginIsochmode
>WhatisthevalueofFSKRN3ontheothermachineatyoursite?
FSKRN3is3.13%/%(percent/percent)onbothmachines.
Moderator'snote:thespecialcharactersintheabovefractionarenowdisplayedcorrectly.
>WhatwastheloadonthemachineatthetimeyouwereobservingTNH?
TNHwassamewhenloadwas17MWor20MW.
CanyoutelluswhichalgorithmFSKRN3isusedin?
FSRNV4
By CSA on 8 March, 2016 - 2:17 pm

sb,
Thequestion:
>>Doestheplantoperatesometimesinparallelwiththegrid,and
>>othertimesindependentlyofthegrid?
Youranswer:
>theplantoperatesonIslandmodealways.
Thesnippetbelowisfromtheoriginalpostofthisthread:
>GT#1isnotabletoattain100%ratedRPM(5105)whenrunin
>Isochronousmode.Whileitrunsat100%ratedRPMwhenrun
>inDroopmodeandsynchronizedwiththegreed[sic].
Iinterpreted"greed"tobe"grid"soitwouldseemtheunitssometimesoperateinparallelwiththeIndian
grid.Yet,nowyousayitdoesn't....By"greed"doyoumeantheisolatedtransmissionanddistributionsystem
thetwogeneratorsaresupplyingthe"island"?
Istheresomekindofexternal"PMS"(PowerManagementSystem)controllingtheloadofthetwoGTswhen
operatinginparalleltosupplytheislandloadindependentofthegrid?
Iimagine20MWisprobablyprettyclosetoBaseLoadforthesemachines.?.?.?Ifso,thenoperatinganIsoch
machineatorveryclosetoBaseLoadisgoingtoresultinlowfrequency.WhentheunitreachesBaseLoadit
can'tincreaseit'spoweroutputanymoreinresponsetoincreasesinsystem("greed")load.So,thefrequency
decreasesinthiscase.
And,theONLYwaytochangetheloadontheIsochmachineistochangetheloadontheDroopmachine
YES,youreadthatcorrectly.TochangetheloadontheIsochmachineonehastochangetheloadonthe
Droopmachine.So,iftheIsochmachineisrunningat20MWandit'satorverynearBaseLoadandthe
system("greed")loadisexpectedtoincrease,theoperator(orthePMS)needstoincreasetheloadonthe
DroopmachinewhichwilldecreasetheloadontheIsochmachine.So,iftheloadontheDroopmachinesis
10MWwhentheloadontheIsochmachineis20MW,iftheloadontheDroopmachineisincreasedto14
MW,theloadontheIsochmachinewilldecreaseto16MWthesameamountofloadthatwas"moved"tothe
Droopmachinebyincreasingit'sload.ThentheIsochmachineisfreetorespondtoanysystem("greed")
increasetomaintainfrequency.
TheabovesupposesthereisaPMSdoingtheloadbalancing,orthatthereisanoperatordoingtheload
balancing.But,somethingorsomeoneneedstokeeptheloadontheIsochmachinebelowBaseLoad,and
above0MW,tokeeptheIsochmachinecapableofrespondingtochangesinsystem("greed")load.
Now,itwouldalsoseemthatsomeonehasbeenmuckingwiththeFSKRN3valuetotrytoaffecteither
stabilityorloadcarrying/loadresponsecharacteristicsofthetwomachines.Idon'thaveaccesstomyoldfiles
atthiswriting,soIcan'tlookataFSRNV4blocktoseeexactlyhowandwhereFSKRN3isuseditit'sactive
duringIsochorDroop,orboth.So,IhavetoreservecommentforatimewhenIcanexamineaFSRNV4block
toseehowFSKRN3isused.
AgovernorrunninginIsochwithoutIsochloadsharingorsomekindofexternalPMSwillautomatically
changeit'sloadinresponsetosystem("greed")loadchanges.Ifalargemotorisstartedandadds1MWof
loadtothe"greed"theIsochmachinewillincreaseitsloadby1MWtokeepthegridfrequencyconstant.
And,thiswillhappenuntiltheunitreachesBaseLoadandthenitcan'tincreaseitsloadanymore,andifthe
"greed"loadincreasesthenthe"greed"frequencywillgodown.
Inthecasewherethere'saDroopmachineoperatinginparallelwithsynchronizedtotheIsochmachine,
someoneorsomethingshouldmonitortheloadontheIsochmachine,andwhenitapproachesBaseLoad
thentheloadontheDroopmachineshouldbeincreased,whichwilldecreasetheloadontheIsochmachineby
thesameamount.
Or,iftheloadontheIsochmachineapproaches0MW,someoneorsomethingmonitoringtheloadonthe
IsochmachineshoulddecreasetheloadontheDroopmachinewhichwillincreasetheloadontheIsoch
machinebythesameamount.ThiswillkeeptheIsochmachinefromtrippingonreversepowershouldtheload
decreasebelow0MW.
Now,somesitestrytouseanexternalcontrolsystem,sometimescalledaPMSorsomethingsimilar,to
monitorthesystemloadandtheloadsonthetwomachinesandshiftloadtokeeptheIsochmachinefrom
runningnear0MWornearBaseLoad.ThisallowstheIsochmachinetoautomaticallyrespondto"greed"load
changesandmaintainfrequency(assumingthegovernorhasbeentunedproperly,ornot"detuned").Someof
thesesystemsactuallyworkprettywellbutmostdonot.And,manysitesdon'thavethesesystemsandrely
onhumanoperatorstomonitortheloadsonthetwomachinesandshiftloadasnecessarytoallowtheIsoch
machine(whenproperlytuned)torespondtoloadchangesinordertomaintainfrequency.Someoperators
understandwhatishappeningandwhattheirroleismanydonot.And,thisgoesfortheirsupervisors,also
manyofwhichascendedtosupervisoryrolesfromoperatorroles.
Idoubt,givenyourotherposts,thatyouasanoperatoraregoingtoeversolvethisproblematyoursite.All
youcandoishopetounderstandhowyoushouldbeoperatingthemachinesandoperatetheminaccordance
withthestandardoperatingproceduresatyoursite.Youmay,atsomepoint,beabletoamendormodifythe
proceduresasappropriatetomakeoperationbetterbutIsuspectthatwilltakeyears,maybedecades.Power
plantoperatorsareloathetodoanythingdifferentlythan"thewaywe'vealwaysdoneit"becausetheyareso
afraidoflosingtheirjob.Tribal"knowledge"isn'talwayscorrect,andthereisadefinitelackoftrainingat
mostsiteeveryoneassumesthecontrolsystemsareomniscientandwilloperateandcontroleverything
properly.But,mostdon'thavethelevelofprogrammingandsophisticationit'sassumedtheydo,andnever
will.Thereisnosubstitutefortrainingandexperiencethat'swhatSOPs(StandardOperatingProcedures)try
toactasasubstitutefor.
Bestofluckhopethishelps!
By sbsolanki on 9 March, 2016 - 6:35 am

CSA,
Youranswersalwayshelp,technicallyandotherwise.
Now,comingtothereply.WehavetwoidenticalFrame5GTswith25MWratingtosupplyourplantload
ONLY.WhatIwasreferringtoas"greed"(grid)earlierisnotIndiangrid,butonlytheplantload.Mybadfor
that.Sorry!
OnemachinerunsonISOandtheotheronDroopmode.Thereisnoexternalloadmanagementsystem.The
operatorincreases/decreasesloadontheDroopmachineaspertherequirement.
NobodyhaseverchangedANYconstantsince2008(whenthesiteupgradedfromMKIVtoMKVI).
Whenonemachinewasrunningat20MWonISO,theothermachinewasintrippedcondition.Weweresure
thatNOextraloadwillbeaddedtothesystematthetime.
Andfinally,talkingaboutBaseloadoftheISOmachine:FromreadingyourpostsontheforumI'velearned
thatatbaseloadtheIGVwillbe84open.Thatwasnotthecase.IGVpositionwas58,so,Iassumethat
themachinewasnotrunningonbaseload.
And,Icanseeyourfrustrationinansweringmy(stupid)questions.Thereisdefinitelylackoftrainingand
experienceandresources.ButstillI'mtryingtolearn.Solvingthis(orotherproblems)isnotexpectedfrom
me.Whatisexpectfrommeistoruntheplantas"they'vebeenrunningitfor26years".
ItwillbeverygoodformeifIcangetONLY10%ofknowledgeyouhaveacquired.
Yourresponseisalwayswelcome(andhelpfulinmanyways).
Thankyou.
By CSA on 9 March, 2016 - 2:30 pm

sb,
There'snosuchthingasadumb(orstupid)questionjustadumb(orstupid)answer.Aformercolleagueof
mineusedtosaythatallthetime,andit'strue.(Theremaybeabadtimetoaskaquestion....likewhentheunit
isbeingstartedforthefirstorsecondtime,orbeingstartedafteramaintenanceoutage.Sometimesit'snotthe
questionbutwhenit'sbeingasked.And,oftentimes"questions"arequestions,butreallystatements,like,"It's
neverdoneTHATbefore!"whichismyLEASTFAVORITEquestionofALLtimenomatterwhenit's
asked.)
IrealizethatmostoperatorsofGEdesignheavydutygasturbinesgetverylittleformaltraining,ifanyand
believeitornotthatincludesfirstworldcountriesinNorthAmericaandEurope.It'sreallyamazingthatmore
machinesaren'twreckedandmorepeoplearen'thurtorworse,becausemostownersandmanagersbelievethe
turbinecontrolsystemswilltakeappropriateactionineveryinstance,andthatoperatorsarejustthereto
"push"theSTARTandSTOPbuttons,andtechniciansonlyneedtoknowhowtheturbinecontrolsystem
worksnothowtheturbineissupposedtooperate.That'smyfrustrationnotthequestions.I'vebeento
developingcountrieswherea25MWgasturbineis25%or50%ofthegridsupplyandtheoperatorshave
hadzeroformaltraining.And,theunitstripalot.Andgetverylittleinthewayofplannedmaintenance
somethingonlygetslookedatorfixedorreplacedwhenitbreaks.And,that'softensometimes.(And,of
coursetheturbinecontrolsystemgetsblamedforbeing"unreliable.")That'smyfrustration,notquestions.
And,justasbadisthefactthatthedocumentationprovidedbytheOEMissolacking,andinsomecases,just
plainwrong.It'snotliketheOEMcan'tproducegooddocumentationtheydo,fortheequipmenttheysellto
ArmiesandNaviesandAirForcesandairlines.So,it'snotanimpossibletaskit'sjustthatnoCustomers
buyingheavydutygasturbinesholdtheOEMaccountablefordocumentation.
Anyway,backtothequestion(s).I'mnotsuggestinganyonechangedanyControlConstantaftertheMarkVIs
werecommissioned.IAMsuggestingthatcommissioningpersonnel(whogetminimaltraining)changedthe
valuesduringcommissioning.
Loadonaprimemoverandgenerator(anyprimemoverandgenerator)triestoslowtheunitdown.So,
wheneverthere'saloadontheunit(wheneverthegeneratorbreakerisclosedandtheMWATTvalueis
positive)theSpeedtronicistryingtomaintainspeed.ForanIsochmachine(ISOmeanssomethingVERY
differentfromIsoch!),it'scontinuallytryingtomaintainspeedtoaverytighttolerance(USUALLY;
unfortunately,Ican'tseemtohelpwiththeproblemofwhyitcan'tmaintain100%TNH(oratleastsomething
between99.83%and100.17%)atyoursite).
TheDroopmachineit'sa"slave"totheIsochmachine.Themagneticfieldsofthetwosynchronous
generatorskeepthemspinningatthesamespeedandtheDroopgovernorallowsforsomespeederror,infact,
itRELIESonaspeederrortooperatecorrectly(TNRTNH,whereit'spresumedTNHisusuallystableand
constantatapproximately100%).
Yes;the"definition"ofBaseLoadisthatitonlyoccurswhentheIGVsaremaximumoperatingangle
(CSKGVMAX),whichisusually84DGA,or86DGAforsomemachines,andI'mhearingasmuchas90
DGAforsomeofthenewerheavydutygasturbines(Fclassandnewer).

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