‘1as8016 (Closed lop Chiled water systom -pressuisstionurits 3¢ ASK ME __[Enteryour question here een eemonbar YoHELPDESK =—8k ‘Me? [Log in| Browse Ask Answer Search JoinfLoain Join Our Community Al Topics + Topic + Science « Engineering + Other Engineering » Closed loop Chilled water system - pressurisation units Closed loop Chilled water system - pressurisation units Asked Nov 20, 2006, 11:37 AM — 18 Answers Hiall, Tam new to this site, Could you please some one help me out to locate the pressurization unit for a chilled water system application in 120m tower building. The heat exchangersiCHW pumps are located at 0.0 level... System volume is about 35-40 m3 and pump head is around 4 bar. What is the ideal position of pressurization units... and what would be cut in & cut out pressure settings for the unit. would appreciate if you can give the selections too [would appreciate the earliest response Thanks & Regards TRY for FREE Search thls Question ~ Share | 18 Answers albuadaey Posts: 454, Reputation: 10, #2 ull Mernbar Nov 21, 2006, 07:36 PM you have a building 120m H (~400 ft), pump's head 4 bar ( 1 bar = 1 atmosphere= 14.7 psi) to pump up 400ft (120M) we need at least 173 psi, 4 bar = 58.8 psi, the pump only pump up 1/3, not enough pressure, Where is the heigthest coil; the supply should be at least 10 psi, you need a least 181 psi ‘you mention the heat exchange, So you don't have a chiller?? you could control temp/ press with combination of pump (VFD) and auto valve... there is no cutin/out the pump always run ,unless cooling not required... as with chiller: first you put on the pumps, fan then chiller, shut off chiller then fan and pumps. ifthe chiller is running without the pumps on it probadly end up in the dumpster People who found this post inaccurate: Helpful ;nvarpb Posts: 3, Reputation: 1 a lew Member Nov 22, 2006, 09:02 AM iipesiww askmenelpdesk.comfathe-engineeringclased:-oop-chilec-walr-system-pressursaionnite-43904 him ve12572016 (Closed lop Chiled water systom -pressuisstionurits Thanks caibuadday... But... Since the chilled water system in the question is of closed loop type , to my knowledge, | do not have to worry about the static head. ‘As you said | need a temperary pump of the capacity 173 psi for the inital filing purpose only ( During filing its an open system ) (Once the system is filled with the chemically treated water and fully closed{ to resist the corrossion), only Iriction losses of pipes, fitings, valves, p.d across the coil of the farthest terminal unit, heat exchanger p.d etc... only exist, To cater that | require a pump of the capacity( m = Q/ Cp * delta T ) where m is the flow rate, Cp specific heat capacity, delta T Temperature change... and head of 4,5 bar (which is the total friction loss*p.d across coll and heat exchanger) My question was regarding the pressurisation unit/expansion vessel location and its capacities to take care of any water leakages! volume changes due to the variation of temperature of water in the system... The system in the question is of district cooling type...so | don't have chillers. District cooling incoming temp 4.5 deg C , Retun Temp 13.5 deg C Building side Supply Temp 5.5 deg C Return temp 14.5 deg C ‘Any more suggestion would appreciate your reply Thanks & Regards Helpful aibuadday Posts: 454, Reputation: 10 #8 Full Member Nov 23, 2006, 02:39 PM. this is the formular for sizing expansion tank vt (0.00041T - 0.0466) Vs] /[ (HalHt) - (Ha/Ho)] Vt= required tank vol \Vs= total vol of system, gallon design average temp, F degree stmospheric press absolute,== 34 ft Ht= min press at tank, equal to the fill press plus static press at tank , ft of water plus absolute (34) Ho= max press at tank, ft of plus absolute (34) re check your total system vol with pump's flow rate formular a water columne of 120 M heigth would have a press of 173 psi, in order for the water to reach the top of the building your pump need to put out at least 173 psi the person did your bullding peak cooling load calculation andi or sizing your pump should be able to help iipesiww askmenelpdesk.comfathe-engineeringclased:-oop-chilec-walr-system-pressursaionnite-43904 him12572016 (Closed lop Chiled water systom -pressuisstionurits you size the tank Helpful [anvarpb Posts: 3, Reputation: 4 New Member ‘Thanks caibuadday. have used this equation for the expansion tank sizing, ‘A) Expansion Tank Sizing Based on ASHRAE Systems and Equipment Handbook Chapter 12 VIEVs ((v2Iv1)-1)-38H163;At 4-(P1IP2) Where Vie Volume of expansion tank, m3 \Vs= Volume of water in system, m3 {t= lower temperature, ‘C, chilled water leaving temp higher temperature, C, ambient temperature stmospheric pressure , KPa P1= pressure at lower temperature, kPa (Design Fill Pressure -Static Head+28 kPa) ressure at higher temperature, KPa specific volume at lower temperature, m3/kg v2= specific volume at higher temperature, m3/kg 8#163;=linear cofficient of thermal expansion of steel A=(12-41) Static Head = in Kpa Thnaks. Helpful [caibuadday Posts: 454, Reputation: 10 #5 Nov 23, 2006, 11:04 PM. 8 Full Member Nov 24,2006, 02:13 PM © Originally Posted by anvarpb Thanks caibuadday. | have used this equation for the expansion tank sizing... |A) Expansion Tank Sizing Based on ASHRAE Systems and Equipment Handbook Chapter 12 VtVs{(v2/vt)-1)-36At 1-(P1/P2) Where t= Volume of expansion tank, m3 Vs= Volume of water in system, m3 U= lower temperature,"C, chilled water leaving temp = higher temperature,"C, ambient temperature Pa= atmospheric pressure , KPa P pressure at lower temperature, kPa (Design Fill Pressure -Static Head+28 kPa) ressure at higher temperature, KPa iipesiww askmenelpdesk.comfathe-engineeringlclased:-oop-chilec-waler-system-pressursaionnite-43904 him12572016 (Closed lop Chiled water systom -pressuisstionurits VI= specific volume at lower temperature, m3/kg \V2= specific volume at higher temperature, m3/kg linear cofficient of thermal expansion of stee! At=(12-t1) Static Head Thnaks.. in Kpa they are about the same, don't forget in the metric system the total absolute press is about 14.4 psi, its actual 14.7... pick the size of the tank equal to the result or next size Up Guoc luck Helpful mias3525 Posts: 1, Reputation: + #7 New Member ‘Aug 20, 2007, 04:47 AM Hi, {Lam following up this topic and intersted to know what is the best location of the pressurization unit in the chilled water loop Thanks Helpful [baibuadday Posts: 454, Reputation: 10 #8 Full Member ‘Aug 21, 2007, 12:10 AM QC Originally Posted by mias3525 Hi, 1am following up this topic and intersted to know what is the best location of the pressurization unit in the chilled water loop Thanx As high as possible, indoor .where you could inspect it, not inside ceiling Helpful khdaker Posts: 1, Reputation: 4 #8 New Member Nov 6, 2007, 08:14 AM How can | calculate the expansion tank in the closed loop of chilled water system? Helpful kdagencies Posts: 1, Reputation: 1 #0. New Member Nov 15,2007, 12:24 AM Dear All, Ihave been seeing the mails on this topic. Following are my suggestions; Ifthe pressurisation unit is located on the terrace, pump of the pressuris: against the total static head, resulting in smaller size pump. If you keep the unit at ground level, the pump will have to overcome the static to push water in the circuit. Pump in this case will become multistage & HP. will go up. For expansion tank sizing also the static plays important part. If the tank is on terrace, the size would be smaller. If kept of ground level, the size will go up substantially unit will not have to work iipesiww askmenelpdesk.comfathe-engineeringclased:-oop-chilec-walr-system-pressursaionnite-43904 him a812572016 (Closed lop Chiled water systom -pressuisstionurits Please let me know if anything else is required on this topic. DILIP DATEY Helpful Ldutenz Posts: 14, Reputation: 3 at New Member Nov 4, 2008, 04:11 PM You can locate pressurisation unit anywhere you want. If your chiller and pumps are located on level 0 than locating the pressurisation unit at highest level will make it smaller and cheaper than if you locate it on level 0, However bare in mind that it might not be feasible to locate pressurisation unit at highest level (no plantrooms). Cut in and out points will depend on pressure in piping that you want to keep. When pumps are not operating the pressure in piping should be above atmospheric (positive gauge) at all points of the system to prevent air infiltration, Typically you need around 30 kPa positive pressure, ASHRAE formulas are OK. For sizing Chilled water is closed system so pumps should be sized for pressure loss through piping, colls and fittings only!! Not for static head. Location of the pressurisation unit has nothing to do with pump selection. Pumps will be the same wherever you put your pressurisation unit Let me know if you need more help Helpful Gouravnim Posis:2, Reputation: + #12. New Member Jun 8, 2008, 03:46 AM How to calculate the head and flow for chilled pumps primary & secondary? Helpful Jonald123 Posts: 1, Reputation: 1 #13 New Member Jan 9, 2012, 04:42 AM Dear kdagencies, Appreciate your answer, ‘What about the flow rate capacity of the pressurization pump? To anvarpb, ‘What is the Q in your equation above? Is it the sensible heat you mean? Hope to hear you soon. This is a good thread to share ideas. Helpful iipesiwwaskmehelpdesk.comfathe-engineeringclased:-oop-chilec-walr-system-pressursaionnite-43904 him12572016 (Close lop Chilled water systom -pressuissionurits baneshpai Posts: 1, Reputation: 1 #4 New Member ‘Apr 30,2012, 12:43 PM was following above questions. Can anybody tell me what will be the pressure at the highest / top level of the building? Helpful ‘Chill Man Posts: 1, Reputation: 4 #8: New Member ‘Sep 26, 2012, 08:00 AM like to add a smole correction for this. If consider the pump head as same as the hight of the building you will never reach to the top. First calculate the head loss of the piping arrangement and add that to this. ‘That is your pump head. But do not forget to keep the safety factor. Helpful [Alireza Avizheh Posts: 1, Reputation: 1 a6. New Member Nov 25, 2012, 04:13 PM. Hi ‘And also for calculating open exp. Tank volume you can use below eq, V=15x(Q/ 1000) Q= boiler heat Capacity, Keal/hr V= open exp. Tank volume, Lit. Helpful jumayjuma Posts: 1, Reputation: 1 #7 New Member Dee 2, 2012, 06:33 AM Salam This is a common problem in New Dubai Was sudden District Cooling became the favorite choice for newly developed towers because of more investment advantages? However Observations: * Secondary chilled water pumps are at full speed (VFD) and sometimes even stand-by pump is on. * Lower floors tenant are paying high energy (BTU Meter) Bills * Higher floors are not getting enough cooling. * When humidity level rise, condensation & fungus will hit the tower. * DC-Provider is not satisfied of less cooling consumption Reasons: * Form of air pockets, * Wrong location of Chilled Water Pump * Wrong location of make-up pressurization pumps * Using bad quality of Air Vent Valves, * Unbalanced chilled water system (Can't be balanced as itis) * DC-Provider control the flow depending on Temp. Diff, while tower control's flow depending on Pressure, ‘no integration or communication between both systems For Corrective Action & Solution Please send me your e-mail so | will send you a presentation Thanks iipesiww askmenelpdesk.comfathe-engineeringclased:-oop-chilec-walr-system-pressursaionnite-43904 him12572016 (Closed lop Chiled water systom -pressuisstionurits Eng. Juma Yousef Getco-Green Earth Technology Co. +971-80-4948385 jumayjuma@gmail.com Helpful Patrik-be Posts: 2, Reputation: 1 we. New Member ‘Apr 25,2013, 06:38 AM Dear Calbuadday, Ina chilled water system (primary secondary and tertiary pumps with chillers), how to determine the maximum allowable pressure at the pressurozation unit to use in the calculation itis too much confusing and not clear for chilled water system, And if the pressurization unit is installed at the suction of the pump how it keeps the pressure constant at this point? In other way if we install the pressure unit at the discharge side of the pump why negative pressure will come at the suction? wish your supportive answer since no one is able to answer me and even in the BS and ashrae these 2 points not clear, ‘Thank You so much! Helpful Pattrik-be Posts: 2, Reputation: 1 #9) New Member ‘Apr 25,2013, 06:41 AM 8 Originally Posted by dulenz Ey You can locate pressurisation unit anywhere you want. If your chiller and pumps are located on level 0 than locating the pressurisation unit at highest level will make it smaller and cheaper than if you locate it on level 0, However bare in mind that it might not be feasible to locate pressurisation unit at highest level (no plantrooms). Cut in and out points will depend on pressure in piping that you want to keep. When pumps are not ‘operating the pressure in piping should be above atmospheric (positive gauge) at al points of the system to prevent air infiltration. Typically you need around 30 kPa positive pressure. ASHRAE formulas are ok. For sizing Chilled water is closed system so pumps should be sized for pressure loss through piping, colls and fitings only! Not for static head. Location of the pressurisation unit has nothing to do with pump selection. Pumps will be the same wherever you put your pressurisation unit. Let me know if you need more help Dear Dulenz, Ina chilled water system (primary secondary and tertiary pumps with chillers), how to determine the maximum allowable pressure at the pressurozation unit to use in the calculation itis too much confusing iipesiww askmenelpdesk.comfathe-engineeringclased:-oop-chilec-walr-system-pressursaionnite-43904 him 78‘1as8016 (Closed lop Chiled water systom -pressuisstionurits and not clear for chilled water system, ‘And ifthe pressurization unitis installed at the suction of the pump how it keeps the pressure constant at this point? In other way if we instal the pressure unit at the discharge side of the pump why negative pressure will come at the suction? [wish your supportive answer since no one is able to answer me and even in the BS and ashrae these 2 points not clear. ‘Thank You so much! Helpful Not your question? Ask your question View similar questions. Question Tools Search this Question Ge Show Printable Version ‘Search this Qu Pi Email this Page [Go] Advanced Search Check out some similar questions! Hot water not available on some units in my condo [9 Answers ] Hello: live in @ condo where there are 6 units toa building. | recently had to shutoff he water supply fo the entire building o replace ‘a hotwater tap in the kitchen dishwasher as part of a remodeling project (lols of banging, tearing). 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