SY, Reinna Madel R.

October 12, 2017

3POL2 Prof. Dennis Coronacion

Ideal State: Thucydides and Plato

Plato was born in 427/8 B.C. from an aristocratic family in Athens, only a couple
of years before the Peloponnesian War began. Being born in an aristocratic family and
with relatives who are involved in politics gave Plato higher chance of joining politics as
well. However, after the Peloponnesian War, politics in Athens was leading towards
oligarchy to support the interests of the wealthy men including the relatives of Plato.
Because of this reason that he supported Democracy; But when his mentor, Socrates
died because of the same system of government that he supported, entering politics
was no longer an option for him and instead he decided to establish an academic
institution—The Academy, and this became the model for Western Institutions (Conford,
1941).
Plato grew up during the events of the Peloponnesian war that’s why he is very
familiar with it and personally witnessed how Athens was defeated by Sparta. Socrates
has a major influence on Plato. When Socrates stood up for what he believed in, he was
sentenced to death. This event lead to the question on ‘how society could be reshaped
so that man might realize the best that is in him’, which is the main theme of The
Republic. After Socrates’ death, Plato devoted himself in establishing the academic
institution, The Academy to continue his mentor’s work and to nurture the minds of the
Athenian youth (Conford, 1941).
In his book, The Republic, he experimented on the dialogue format which he
adopted from his mentor Socrates however; he adopted his mentor’s method. The
characters in the book are analyzed to be real persons that are somehow close to Plato
as a relative or someone who is very well known at that time. Also, because of the
influence of Socrates in Plato’s thoughts it is hard to distinguish if the words of Socrates
in the book are his exact words or it Plato’s (Plato, 2009).
In The Republic, Plato proposed what is his ideal state which he called the ‘just
city’. He stated that the ideal state revolves around the concept of what is just. He also
emphasized that the key factor here is the concept of specialization. According to him,
in order to enforce what is ‘just’, people should not interfere with other people’s affairs
and should only work based on the function that best suits his nature. In this just city, he
classified the principle of specialization on three groups: the philosopher king, the
guardians, and the producers. The philosopher king should be the one to rule and
command. The guardians, where the philosophers are chosen, are assigned to be the
soldiers that will help in the execution of those commands. Lastly, the producers are the
class that offers service and must obey the rules imposed (Conford, 1941).
He also provided that these three classes of specialization have a counterpart
with the soul. He called this the Tripartite soul. According to him, the Tripartite soul is
parallel to the classes of specialization. It is about the desires of the soul and what it
yearns for. The rational part of the soul yearns for truth and knowledge and that is why
this part must rule. The spirit part is for love of honor. This part must execute the
‘convictions’ of the rational part. Lastly is the appetite part of the soul which years for
money, food, and so on. And just as the three classes in the just city, the appetite part
must obey and not be prioritized (Conford, 1941).
Plato also suggested five types of government in Book VIII of The Republic. First
is Aristocracy where trained guardians rule (Habib, 1998). Second is Timocracy, here,
the love of honor takes over the rational part of a man. This form of city is best
associated with Sparta whose capability to rule is dependent on military strength and
merits. Third is Oligarchy. According to Socrates, Oligarchy is “based on a property
qualification, where the rich are in power and the poor man cannot hold office”. In this
city, the capacity to rule is for the few and wealthy people. Third is democracy. Here, the
concept of freedom and equality and freedom is applied. Last is Despotism, the worst
type of government. This type of government is commonly known as Tyranny where a
‘dictator’ rules driven by his lawless or unlawful appetite (Conford, 1941).
Athens was very proud of its liberty and equality (Jones, 1953). In 557b of The
Republic, he mentioned that Athenian democracy violated the principle of specialization.
He mentioned that in this democracy, Athenians “…are free. Liberty and free speech is
rife everywhere; anyone is allowed to do what he likes” (Conford, 1941). He also added
about the ‘deplorable results’ of this liberty that even foreigners, women and slaves are
as free as the citizens (Jones, 1953), and these liberty, if abused, makes the city-states
chaotic.
For Plato, democracy is not the best form of government because it embodies
freedom and equality for all. According to him, freedom and equality after a long run will
only lead to chaos and disorder. When this happened, lawlessness will follow hence the
rise of tyranny. Based on this, Plato proved that tyranny is the ‘extension’ of democracy.
Furthermore, what is needed in this situation is a leader who can make decision for the
good of all—a philosopher king. Once the leader became ineffective, he can be easily
affected by the ‘mob of citizens’ and make decisions based on what the mob dictates
(Habib, 1998).
In The Republic, Socrates pointed out the unclear concept of equality. He
distinguishes two types of equality, “one allots the same to everyone and the other what
is appropriate to each”; and also pointed that the previous concept of equality in Athens
was prearranged whether the person is good or bad (Jones, 1953).
Plato supports the equality of women and that they should have equal rights with
men especially on opportunities on education and public duties. He also stated that
women should receive treatment as men do. This just mean to say that the issues on
equal rights between sexes were already being discussed in Plato’s time or maybe even
earlier (Conford, 1941).
According to Plato, governing requires the highest form of skill therefore must be
assigned to selected few. For Plato, the best type of regime is aristocracy because this
is a government where the best person to rule is the wisest and most knowledgeable—
the philosopher kings (Conford, 1941).
Thucydides came from a family of miners and then got elected to as an Athenian
general. According to him, he wrote the history of the Peloponnesian war because he
knew that this event shall be recorded in history as there was no other war that stirred
up Greek world even before (Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War, 1998). And this will
be the Great War to ever be recorded in the history of ancient Greece.
 Thucydides wrote the Peloponnesian War in milieu of the major conflict in the
history of Greece. During this period, city-states in Greece were at war dividing Greece
in two alliances or leagues—the Delian League and the Peloponnesian League. The
Delian League is spearheaded by Athens while Sparta on the latter (Thucydides, 1998).
Thucydides’ method of writing history is remarkable. He wrote historical accounts
based on what he have witnessed and some others say from reliable sources who have
personally witnessed an event and hearsays that Thucydides collected. In his work, it is
notable to see speeches by known leaders at that time. It is understood that he included
speeches his work to effectively immerse the readers in the real situation and scenes of
the ‘Great War’ (Thucydides, 1998).
Thucydides believed that by writing a true historical account will greatly help the
readers to know the mistakes of the past so that in the future, the same mistakes will
not committed again. Also to add on this, very thoughtful descriptive details of the
plague which killed almost a third of the population during the Peloponnesian War was
written hoping to find the cure in the future (Thucydides, 1998).
Thucydides’ methods in writing for the purpose of recording a ‘true history’ by
removing the elements of Greek myths and poetries which are usually incorporated in
the works of some writers, such as Homer that Thucydides criticized. He also included
in his work topics about a man’s virtues, happiness, failures, pride and some advice
regarding these topics (Thucydides, 1998).
Democracy is administered to serve the interests of the many. Democracy in
Athens is practiced through an assembly where participants or ‘polity’ can have a
dialogue and debate and then pass policies through the process of voting. The
advantage of Athenian Democracy is that when participants participate in a dialogue,
the outcome would be a ‘collective opinion’ and that’s how they will come up with
‘collective decision making’ for resolutions to conflicts (Ober, 1993).
A participant of the assembly is determined by gender—that as long as the
person is male citizen of Athens then, he is qualified to express his thoughts and
opinions. Although all men are considered equal despite their social status however,
they highly recognize merits achieved and abilities of an individual (Ober, 1993).
Thucydides highly commended Pericles in his actions during the war. He
described Pericles as someone who was ‘not carried away by the people, but he was
the one guiding the people’. That despite the structure of politics in Athens is highly
based on the charisma of a speaker to please and get votes from participants, he does
not hesitate to say what he thinks is right. One major event that best prove this point is
when Pericles, before his death, advised Athens to not go to any expedition and to not
face Sparta on land if they want to ensure success however; after Pericles died they
didn’t heed to Pericles’ advice and still pursued an exhibition to go to Sicily headed by
Alcibiades, an ambitious and populist leader (Ober, 1993).
For Thucydides, the best regime was what Athens had, the Athenian Democracy.
For him, Athens’ foreign policies under the leadership of Pericles, could have been a
game changer in the war and Athens could have won (Jones, 1953). However,
everything has changed ever since Pericles died and replaced by leaders who cannot
match Pericles’ capabilities on leadership.
The problems and disadvantages of Athens’ democratic form of government are
best seen during the events after the death of Pericles in the Peloponnesian War. Due
to the fact that the assembly of Athens was easily persuaded by Alcibiades’ words that
are pleasing to the ears of Athenians, and the fact that Athenian democracy serves the
interests of many, they neglected he last advice of Pericles. This expedition brought
them advantages at first like acquisition of slaves but it didn’t last long; because in
exchange, they lost several ships during the expedition greatly affected the naval power
of Athens to decline and later on resulted to their defeat and surrender to Sparta. Also,
in this event the difference of a demagogue and a statesman is presented. A
demagogue is a politician, he will only say what the audience wants to hear while a
statesman is what a real leader should be—only say what is true whatever the
consequence might be—just like Pericles (Thucydides, 1998).
Negative features of Athenian democracy were written by Thucydides during the
Melian Dialogue. It was the 16th year since the war started and Sparta and Athens
signed a peace treaty. Distrust and pressure from both parties forced other states to
take sides between Sparta and Athens. However, despite the pressure inflicted by
Athens to Melos, it remains neutral and Athens did not accept their decision. Athens
then wage war with Melos where Melos was greatly defeated. Athens killed all adult
men and took women and children to slavery (Thucydides, 2001).
Since in Athenian democracy, any Athenian men can participate, it is prone to
make wrong decisions. It is clearly shown here Thucydides’ views on democracy.
Melian Dialogue shows how lack of sense of judgement and pride of human greatly
affected the island (Thucydides, 2001). Athenian democracy is easily driven by
behaviour and emotions and Athens is a great example on how foolish pride and unwise
decisions and behaviour of humans.
Plato’s thoughts are greatly influenced by his previous mentor, Socrates. In The
Republic, Socrates is the main character although the question on whether it is
Socrates’ ideas or Plato’s is still on debate. He was also greatly influenced by his
experiences since childhood from the events of the Peloponnesian War. Plato does not
support the Athenian democracy saying that it is not in line with the principle of
specialization. He also emphasized on the role of freedom and equality in Athenian
Democracy and pointed out that freedom might lead to chaos if abused, and equality’s
definition should be clearly defined.
For Plato, the best regime is aristocracy because the wisest of all should rule just
like what a philosopher-king should do. In his ideal state the just city, he applied the
principle of specialization so the city shall have order. Those who do best in farming will
only farm, those who can fight best should only function as soldier and those who have
gift to rule shall have the right to rule. If only this concept of ideal state was applied
during the Peloponnesian War.
In Thucydides’ The History of Peloponnesian War, the best state for him was the
Athenian democracy. The collective decision-making and the interaction of participants
through debate are the advantages of the Athenian democracy. The leadership of
Pericles made the city-state’s government remarkable for Thucydides however, after he
died, Athens was left to a demagogue and from then on Athens started to diminish and
be completely subdued by Sparta.
Plato criticized Democracy as the best form of government contrary to
Thucydides’ statement. For Plato, Democracy will only result to disorder and chaos as it
promotes freedom and equality.
 The problem with Athens is that its advantage is also its own disadvantage.
Athenian men can express their thoughts and exercise voting regarding concerns of the
polity through the Assembly. However, in Plato’s principle of specialization, people
should be classified based on their functions and it is possible that the Athenian
Assembly overstepped on their boundaries and this could be the reason why Athens
despite their dominion of the seas and advance military technologies lost in the Great
War.
Bibliography
Conford, F. M. (1941). The Republic of Plato. London: Oxford University Press.
Habib, M. A. (1998). Identity ad Difference: Plato and Aristotle on Democracy. In M. A. Habib, Literary
Criticism. Cambridge.
Jones, A. H. (1953). The Athenian Democracy and Its Critics. The Cambridge Historical Journal, 11( 1), 1-
26.
Ober, J. (1993, January). Thucydides' Criticism of Democratic Knowledge. Retrieved October 11, 2017,
from Academia:
https://www.academia.edu/2789260/Thucydides_Criticism_of_Democratic_Knowledge
Plato. (2009). The Republic. (B. Jowett, Trans.) Waiheke Island: Floating Press.
Thucydides. (1998). The Peloponnesian War. (S. Lattimore, Trans.) USA: Hackett Publishing Company Inc.
Thucydides. (2001). Melian Dialogue. In K. A. Mingst, & J. Snyder, Essential Readings in World Politics
(pp. 18-20). New York: W.W. Norton & Company.