Wind Force Calculation - Intergraph CADWorx & Analysis

3/21/2018 Wind Force Calculation - Intergraph CADWorx & Analysis
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Wind Force Calculation #15389 - 01/21/08 02:34 AM 1 registered (Jaro), 20
Guests and 3 Spiders
D.H.Seok online.
Dear COADE staff,
Key: Admin, Global Mod,
Member
Mod
Hello, I have a question for Wind Load.
Registered:
08/15/06 March
Posts: 26 According to ASCE 7-02, Wind Force is calculated by the
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
Loc: Korea following formula:
F = qzGCfAf 1 2 3
where: 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
F: Wind Force. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
qz: Velocity pressure evaluated at height z above ground
(N/m2) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
qz = 0.613 KzKztKdV2I 25 26 27 28 29 30 31
Kz: Velocity pressure exposure coefficient evaluated at
height z. (taken from Table 6) Forum Stats
Kzt: Topographic factor = 1.0 11407 Members
V: Basic wind speed (m/s) 14 Forums
I: Importance factor (taken from Table 5) 15310 Topics
G: Gust effect factor (0.85) 69090 Posts
Cf: Force coefficient to be used in the determination of
wind loads (Table 7) Max Online: 105 @
Af: Area of building (m2) 07/02/17 09:16 PM
G is 0.85 and Cf is 0.7(refer to figure 6-19 of ASCE 7-02)
According to CAESAR II manual, the G Factor is not shown

like Follow formula:
F = PeqSA
Where:
F = the total wind force on the element
Peq = the equivalent wind pressure (dynamic pressure)
S = the pipe element wind shape factor
A = the pipe element exposed area as shown in the figure
as follows
If formula of ASCE 7-02 is applied, wind shape factor shall

be 0.595(G x Cf). However if CAESAR II is applied, wind
shape factor shall be 0.7 only.
What's the difference between ASCE 7-02 and CAESAR II?
Please give me the solution if you know about that.
Best regards,
_________________________
D.H.SEOK
Top
Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #15392 - 01/21/08 08:43 AM

http://65.57.255.42/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=15389 1/8
Richard
Ay The shape factor (Cf) is an input value - you define this in
Member the Piping Input.
Registered:
12/13/99 The gust factor defaults to 0.85 unless you define the 1st
Posts: 5828 natural frequency of the piping system. If this frequency is
Loc: Houston, defined, the equations in ASCE#7 are used to compute
Texas, USA the gust factor. At the moment (ASCE-2005), you can find
this information (and the equations) in Section 6.5.8. (In
ASCE-2002 this section was in the Commentary.)
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Hexagon PPM (CAS)
Top
Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: Richard Ay] #15433 - 01/22/08 07:51 PM
D.H.Seok
Thanks for your information.
Member
But now I'm still confusing. That's why we have 3
Registered:
08/15/06 methods to evaluate wind load in CAESAR II as follows.
Posts: 26
Loc: Korea 1. Use ASCE#7 Wind Load Parameters
2. Use User-Defined Wind Pressure vs Elevation
3. Use User- Defined Wind Velocity vs Elevation
If we choose 2 or 3 method, we don't need to concern

about any factor.
However if we choose 1 method, all factor including
G(gust factor) should be inputted. But I can't find to input
G factor anywhere in CAESAR II.
What I guess is wrong? And also, where is G?
I really want to know what I missed, why the different
formula for wind force between ASCE-7 and CAESAR II
shall be used.
One more, I will follow that The shape factor (Cf) is an

input value by 0.7.
Thanks,
Best regards.
_________________________
D.H.SEOK
Top
Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #15435 - 01/22/08 09:01 PM

Richard
Ay If you select the ASCE7 method, CAESAR II implements
Member the equations from ASCE7 - there is no difference. The
gust factor "G" is either (a) assumed to be 0.85 if you
Registered:
12/13/99 don't specify the first natural period (as required by
Posts: 5828 ASCE7), or (b) computed according to the ASCE7
Loc: Houston, equations in Section 6.5.8.
Texas, USA
If you select either of the "user-defined profile" methods,

your input is only multiplied by the "shape factor", which
you define in the Piping Input.
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Hexagon PPM (CAS)
Top

davidmunoz
One question:
Member
Where you can check the values pressure Vs elevation ,if
Registered:
08/09/10 you select ASCE7 method?
Posts: 37
Loc: EspaÃ±a IÂ´d like to check my manual calculation with Caesar
calculation according by ASCE.
Thanks
Top

Richard
Ay CAESAR II does not report the internally generated
Member element wind loads. For verification, you can define a
"wind only" load case and sum the restraint loads.
Registered:
12/13/99 _________________________
Posts: 5828
Loc: Houston, Regards,
Texas, USA Richard Ay
Hexagon PPM (CAS)
Top
mikina
Member Good morning Richard,
Registered:
10/04/11 We have one question. We have the following data:
Posts: 5 Basic wind speed: 49 m/s
Loc: spain Exposure category: B
We are using Caesar2 2016 and ASCE7-10

Our piping system is bellow 3,5 m and we are considering
pressure vs elevation in Caesar 2.
We understand that in the input in Caesar2, we have to

consider the mÃnimum design wind loading as per
paragraph 29.8, which is 0.77 KN/m2.
Our question is:
This mÃnimum design force, we enter this value 0.77
directly in the wind user profile and also the factor 0.65
(for piping)in the input of Caesar.
Are we doing right?
Or we must consider the cf factor(as per tables 29.5-1 to

29.5.3) is already considered in the mÃnimum design
force. And we donÂ´t have to multiplied by it again.
Thanks a lot in advance
Top
Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: mikina] #66496 - 05/30/16 11:56 PM
mariog
Member A basic wind speed of 49 m/s correspond to a basic wind
pressure of 0.625*49^2 [Pa], where 0.625 is half of
Registered:
09/29/07 "standard" air density, so the first question would be why
Posts: 622 you input there the mÃnimum design wind loading.
Loc: Romania
ASCE 7 just asks for a design wind not less than 16 lb/ft2
(0.77 kPa).
Top
mikina
Member My question was,
Registered:
10/04/11 which was the value to input in Caesar 2?
Posts: 5
Loc: spain
0.77 Kn /m2 and in the input of Caesar2 a cf=0.65
or the mÃnimum design force 0,77Kn/m2 in the wind user
profile, and cf=1,in the input
because we already considered cf with the force

(F=qz*G*cf*Af) and as per paragraph 29.8:
MINIMUM DESIGN WIND LOADING

The design wind force for other structures shall be
not less than 16 lb/ft2 (0.77 kN/m2) multiplied by the
area Af.
Top
mariog
Member What I tried to say is that your approach based on
"0,77Kn/m2" seems to ignore the data you have, i.e.
Registered:
09/29/07 Basic wind speed: 49 m/s, Exposure category: B. So the
Posts: 622 answer to your question is neither of your alternatives,
Loc: Romania except when your calculation shows values less than 0.77
kPa.
BTW, for the formula I've written, ASCE 7 considers the
coefficient of 0.617 instead my 0.625- which is by
EuroCode.
You can input data in Caesar under ASCE 7 template and

give credit to software. It is expected that, based on your
input, Caesar shall calculate qz as per 29.3-1, G as
explained Mr.Ay- see above, Cf may be as per Figure
29.5-1 and is actually as per your input. The calculated
qz*G*Cf, as per ASCE 29.5-1 requirements cannot be less
than 16 lb/ft2 (0.77 kPa), you can check software
considered ASCE 7/ 29.8.
In case you prefer to input an "user-defined profile", your

have to calculate yourself max(qz*G*cf; 0.77kPa) on
vertical axis and input it in software. Indeed, in this case
does not make sense to input again Cf value in software
(you can force it as 1 value in Caesar) because your
inputted profile will be (probably unconservative)
multiplied by the Cf when calculate the force acting on
members.
Top
mikina
Member Thanks a lot Mario
Registered:
10/04/11 ok, I understood the answer, we donÂ´t have to input cf
Posts: 5 again.
Loc: spain But,Could someone else confirm this issue?
Top
mikina
Member Because in the paragraph 29.8 itÂ´s said:
Registered:
10/04/11 The design wind force for other structures shall be
Posts: 5 not less than 16 lb/ft2 (0.77 kN/m2) multiplied by the
Loc: spain area Af.
But also in the definition of Af,
Af = projected area normal to the wind except where Cf

is speciﬁed for the actual surface area,in ft2 (m2)
Top

Richard
Ay "Cf" is typically about 0.6 for pipes. The equation CAESAR
Member II uses to determine the force on each element is:
Registered:
12/13/99 F = Cf * Af * pressure
Posts: 5828
Loc: Houston, You state above that you're defining the pressure in the
Texas, USA "wind input". You need to define "Cf" in the piping input,
otherwise CAESAR II won't know there is wind on the
elements.
You can verify your understanding of the input and

operation of the software by running a two or three
element cantilever and verifying the load (reaction)
manually.
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Hexagon PPM (CAS)
Top
mikina
Member
But, in my case, I consider cf=0.65 in the input and
Registered:
10/04/11
Posts: 5 In the "wind user profile" pressure vs elevation 0.77
Loc: spain Kn/m2 (which is the mÃnimum)
Is it right?
Top

Richard
Ay The load on your elements is therefore:
Member
Load = 0.65 * 0.77 * "projected area in M2".
Registered:
12/13/99
Posts: 5828 The AISC Standard defines a minimum pressure, not a
Loc: Houston, minimum element load.
Texas, USA
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Hexagon PPM (CAS)
Top
Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: Richard Ay] #66524 - 06/01/16 11:39 PM
mariog
Member
Quote:
Registered:
09/29/07 The AISC Standard defines a minimum pressure,
Posts: 622 not a minimum element load.
Loc: Romania
I don't think so, because 29.8 refers to "design wind

force", even refers to 16 lb/ft2 (0.77 kN/m2) as pressure
units. That's I still think that the unit force on member is
max(qz*G*Cf; 0.77kPa)*Af
ASCE 7-10, 29.8 MINIMUM DESIGN WIND LOADING

The design wind force for other structures shall be not less
than 16 lb/ft2 (0.77 kN/m2) multiplied by the area Af.
Top

Richard
Ay I'll have to check the Standard again, I don't have it here
Member with me.
Registered:
12/13/99 In any event, "qz*G*Cf" is how CAESAR II computes the
Posts: 5828 element load. You need a non-zero value for "Cf" to tell
Loc: Houston, the software that the elements have wind. You can adjust
Texas, USA
"Cf" or use a multiplier on the "WIND" primitive in the

load case editor.
_________________________
Regards,
Richard Ay
Hexagon PPM (CAS)
Top
Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: Richard Ay] #70334 - 11/08/17 03:53 AM
khatkole
But where to input Elevation in CII when we are using
Member ASCE#7 for wind calculations.
Registered: _________________________
04/28/08 Mumbai
Posts: 31
Loc: India India
Top

Michael_Fletcher
In the piping editor, you specify the elevation of
Member the first node with Alt+G. You can also access this
function under the "Edit" menu, and in the toolbar.
Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 514
Loc: Louisiana, US You may alternatively also specify wind vs
elevation in the wind load editor in a few different
ways.
Edit to add:
By default the first element is 0,0,0. When you

specify wind loads in the input editor the first time,
it asks you where you want the origin to be.
Edited by Michael_Fletcher (11/08/17 09:08 AM)

Edit Reason: As noted.
_________________________
Ver: 7.00.01.1600 (Build 141003)
Top
danb
Member if you use ASCE#7 for wind calculations you must go to
global coordinates and insert elevation from ground.
Registered:
04/22/05 _________________________
Posts: 1262
Loc: ... Dan
Top
Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: danb] #70375 - 11/13/17 09:36 PM
khatkole
correct but what Elevations to be used for ground to be
Member 0.000 ?
Registered:
04/28/08 as when we use Elevation V/s pressure or velocity profile,
Posts: 31 there we correlate the elevation coordinates with input
Loc: India
coordinates, but when we are using ASCE#7 we are not
know what is base/grade elevation taken in to
calculations.
Edited by khatkole (11/13/17 09:39 PM)
_________________________
Mumbai
India
Top

Michael_Fletcher
We can't tell you what the reference point is for
Member your project. Your project lead has to direct you to
that information, or you have to field verify.
Registered: 01/29/10
Posts: 514 _________________________
Loc: Louisiana, US
Ver: 7.00.01.1600 (Build 141003)
Top
danb
Member Being the distance from ground to your element, I guess
you can enter the 3D model and measure. For example a
Registered:
04/22/05 pump suction would be at around 500 mm ...800mm
Posts: 1262 above earth.
Loc: ...
If on iso the elevation is something 100.500 you can
imagine that 100.000 is reference elevation so in global
coordinate you will not insert 100.500 but 500 (if in mm)
Edited by danb (11/14/17 04:33 PM)
_________________________
Dan
Top
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Topic Options Who's Online

G is 0.85 and Cf is 0.7(refer to figure 6-19 of ASCE 7-02)

According to CAESAR II manual, the G Factor is not shown

If formula of ASCE 7-02 is applied, wind shape factor shall

What's the difference between ASCE 7-02 and CAESAR II?

Please give me the solution if you know about that.

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #15392 - 01/21/08 08:43 AM

If we choose 2 or 3 method, we don't need to concern

One more, I will follow that The shape factor (Cf) is an

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #15435 - 01/22/08 09:01 PM

If you select either of the "user-defined profile" methods,

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #66440 - 05/20/16 01:41 AM

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #66444 - 05/22/16 09:25 AM

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #66491 - 05/30/16 09:49 AM

We are using Caesar2 2016 and ASCE7-10

We understand that in the input in Caesar2, we have to

Our question is:

This mÃnimum design force, we enter this value 0.77

Are we doing right?

Or we must consider the cf factor(as per tables 29.5-1 to

Thanks a lot in advance

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: mikina] #66496 - 05/30/16 11:56 PM

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #66497 - 05/31/16 03:02 AM

because we already considered cf with the force

MINIMUM DESIGN WIND LOADING

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #66498 - 05/31/16 06:08 AM

You can input data in Caesar under ASCE 7 template and

considered ASCE 7/ 29.8.

In case you prefer to input an "user-defined profile", your

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #66499 - 05/31/16 06:58 AM

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #66500 - 05/31/16 07:06 AM

But also in the definition of Af,

Af = projected area normal to the wind except where Cf

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #66506 - 05/31/16 08:05 PM

You can verify your understanding of the input and

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #66509 - 06/01/16 01:22 AM

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #66520 - 06/01/16 05:52 PM

I don't think so, because 29.8 refers to "design wind

ASCE 7-10, 29.8 MINIMUM DESIGN WIND LOADING

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #66527 - 06/02/16 04:26 PM

"Cf" or use a multiplier on the "WIND" primitive in the

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #70340 - 11/08/17 09:06 AM

By default the first element is 0,0,0. When you

Edited by Michael_Fletcher (11/08/17 09:08 AM)

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #70373 - 11/13/17 06:59 PM

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: danb] #70375 - 11/13/17 09:36 PM

Edited by khatkole (11/13/17 09:39 PM)

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #70378 - 11/14/17 08:47 AM

Re: Wind Force Calculation [Re: D.H.Seok] #70382 - 11/14/17 04:33 PM

Edited by danb (11/14/17 04:33 PM)

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