A brief tour of how to check clearances in your motor K 20 A

by
chunky
Published on 08-12-2013 09:33 PM
22 Comments

First, start by installing 4 valves into your test head with the lightest valve spring you have. In my
case, I used the inner valve springs only from the Skunk2 Pro series valve springs. This keeps the
amount of tension you have to keep in the chain to a minimum. Less tension in the chain makes
things easier to turn.

Then, you need to rig up something like this to keep the cams in time relative to one another. With a
little ingenuity, you can make it happen. Note that I have the intake cam gear pinned at 50deg. I have
a custom cam gear that allows me to check clearances at individual cam angles, but that's currently
for my eyes only. :p
Here's a shot of the intake valves at full lift.
The exhaust valves at full lift.
Now we start to measure valve to valve (v2v) clearance. I started with the lash set at .010". I didn't
have feeler gauges thick enough, so I just stacked two together.
The v2v on my Skunk2 stage II cams, VTEC lobe @ 50deg intake advance and -5 marks on the
exhaust cam gear.
Now we re-check at 0 lash.
As you can see, the v2v goes WAY down with valve lash. Let this be a warning to you people out
there that like to lash things ultra tight on big cams.
 Tomorrow, I should have pictures up from claying the motor.
This article was originally published in forum thread: A brief tour of how to check clearances in your motor started by chunky View original post

22 Comments

1.
KPowerEP3 - 08-04-2007, 04:43 AM

o Reply
as always, some excellent info from chunky.

he's a smart dude and def. knows his stuff. He's not widely known here, but on EPhatch and some of
the other k-series websites he's known as a very reputable source.

1.
Da_unknown - 08-04-2007, 05:39 PM

o Reply
good stuff chunky...
1.
speedminded - 08-04-2007, 08:55 PM

o Reply
Originally Posted by chunky
Tomorrow, I should have pictures up from claying the motor.

ha! was just about to ask about claying it and what do you know, the last thing you say

1.
chunky - 08-05-2007, 07:03 AM

o Reply
Just got back in from claying the motor. Came up with some interesting results. But first, I realized
that yesterday I did not have my exhaust rocker assembly properly lashed. I used a new rocker
assembly on the exhaust side. Therefore, I repeated the v2v measurements.

This time the v2v clearance was more in line with what I expected. This was at .010" lash. Quite a
different result from last night.
Just for kicks, I checked the v2v at .011" lash. .001" of lash gained .002" of clearance.
Now, on to the claying. The process is very simple, cut out strips of clay, and lay it out on your piston
in the following areas. Lock your rockers in VTEC and set your cams to the max settings you think
you can get away with. Then assemble the head to the motor. Some people will spray down the
combustion chamber roof with WD40 to keep the clay from sticking to the head, but I've found that it's
a crapshoot on whether the clay will stick to the piston or the head no matter how much WD you spray
on.
Once the head is on the motor, turn the engine over so that the valves make their impression on the
clay. Then take it apart to inspect. As you can see below, there is plenty of clearance between the
piston domes and the head. The exhaust v2p measured out to .125". I didn't even need to measure to
know that the intake v2p is insufficient. The intake v2p measured out to .015". This is one reason why
you use old valves when claying a motor. If things do touch, you don't want to trash a new valve.
The conclusion is that the Skunk2 stage II cams are NOT 50deg safe in my motor. I always
suspected this. Back when I did the cam test, the skunk2 stage II's (and the IPS k2's) had an insane
knock count anytime I'd advance to 50deg on the VTEC lobe, no matter what rpm. My suspicions that
I'd have clearance issues at 50deg were cemented when the v2v clearances came up so small with
the exhaust rocker lashed correctly. For reference, I have shelf stock CP 12.5:1 pistons with Eagle
rods.

One curious note regarding my engine is that TDC occurs well before the factory mark on the crank
pulley and cam gears. I've long suspected this, but was able to verify it with a travel gauge. Finding
the true TDC point of your motor is a simple affair with the head off and a travel gauge. You setup the
gauge perpendicular to the piston and turn the crank while watching the gauge. When the needle
reverses directions, you've found your TDC. You can do the same thing with the head on the car, but
you'll need a long extension for your travel gauge.
Typically, knowing the "true" TDC of the motor is not necessary, but in my case, I'm degreeing the
cams in so I need to know exactly where my TDC occurs. Once I know where TDC is, I can set my
exhaust cam centerline accordingly. Oh, and to degree cams, you need to be able to measure the
angular travel of the crank. So I made this little thing.
 The goal is to have my cams precisely dialed in relative to my "true" TDC. But that will be saved for
another post.

1.
speedminded - 08-05-2007, 11:53 AM

o Reply
err, yeah that would be a lil bit too close...especially with a cold engine! How much has the head
been shaved?

oh yeah, nice degree wheel

1.
chunky - 08-05-2007, 01:02 PM

o Reply
Originally Posted by speedminded
err, yeah that would be a lil bit too close...especially with a cold engine! How much has the head
been shaved?

oh yeah, nice degree wheel

Well, on a hot engine, the clearances will increase since the hot lash is typically greater than the cold
lash. The head has never been shaved. The mating surface has never even been resurfaced because
it hasn't needed it as of yet.

I had a hell of a time finding a degree wheel that would mount to the crank pulley. ATI sells the
fluidampr that is marked in 1 degree increments, but it's too rich for my blood. That's how I ended up
making my own. :p

1.
chunky - 08-06-2007, 04:26 AM

o Reply
The true TDC was found with the travel gauge and then marked using a pointer. In my case, a steel
rule + magnet. It was tough to get the camera in at the right angle, but it was marking zero.
Now, the crank is turned to the desired centerline of 107 BTDC. So 360 - 107 = 253. Again, it looks
off, but it's b/c I couldn't get the camera at the perfect angle in the fender well.
Once the crank is set to the desired centerline, setup a travel gauge on one of the rockers or
retainers. Loosen the set screws on the cam gear and slowly advance/retard the cam and look for
where the rocker arm reaches it's maximum travel. Lock the set screws. You can double check now
by actually rotating the crank. If you assume a symmetric ramp rate, you can turn the crank to slightly
before the location of the centerline, and zero out the travel gauge. Turn the crank, passing the
centerline until the travel gauge hits zero again. Subtract the starting crank angle from the finishing
crank angle, and divide by two. Then add to the starting crank angle. That is the location of your
centerline. I verified my centerline about 3x over and found that I only needed to retard the
exhaust cam 1.25 marks, or 5 crank degrees.

I aslo checked my pistons to see how far out of the hole they are. came out to be .009"
So the moral of the story here is, if you're building a motor with big cams like the skunk2 stage II's or
IPS k2's and using an after market rod/piston setup, CHECK YOUR CLEARANCES!!!. It's best to
KNOW what you're getting into. I've been told all sorts of things regarding what is safe for my motor
and what kind of cam gear settings I should run etc. The reality of the situation was that my motor
didn't follow the rules. Now I know my engine's mechanical limits and I can dial it in and hopefully
make the most power that it is capable of.
 Hope you guys enjoyed this brief tour.

1.
speedminded - 08-06-2007, 08:18 AM

o Reply
Originally Posted by chunky
I had a hell of a time finding a degree wheel that would mount to the crank pulley. ATI sells the
fluidampr that is marked in 1 degree increments, but it's too rich for my blood. That's how I ended up
making my own. :p
Summit sells the aluminum wheels for like $20 but like you said still need a good & reliable way to put
it on the crank. Pretty sure the one i've always used was from Moroso.

Built an LS a few months ago, shaved the head 0.01 and the block 0.05 and the piston came up out of
the block .015" haha Stock cams and crank but used GS-R pistons. Clayed it and had plenty of
valve clearance but the piston was making contact with the head...grind the head or the piston?
Flipped the head over, layed down the gasket, and enlarged the combustion chambers slightly. The
piston then slid up inside it perfectly Remember, this was a budget build with basically only time
involved using spare parts.

Used a degree wheel before and after and now both the exhaust and intake is retarded 5° and can't
run adjustable cam shafts, lol. Rotational torque with rear main seal on was 6.8lbs...Running 100
octane only and aiming for 12:1.

1.
chunky - 08-06-2007, 08:54 AM

o Reply
Originally Posted by speedminded
Summit sells the aluminum wheels for like $20 but like you said still need a good & reliable way to put
it on the crank. Pretty sure the one i've always used was from Moroso.

Built an LS a few months ago, shaved the head 0.01 and the block 0.05 and the piston came up out of
the block .015" haha Stock cams and crank but used GS-R pistons. Clayed it and had plenty of
valve clearance but the piston was making contact with the head...grind the head or the
piston? Flipped the head over, layed down the gasket, and enlarged the combustion chambers
slightly. The piston then slid up inside it perfectly Remember, this was a budget build with basically
only time involved using spare parts.

Used a degree wheel before and after and now both the exhaust and intake is retarded 5° and can't
run adjustable cam shafts, lol. Rotational torque with rear main seal on was 6.8lbs...Running 100
octane only and aiming for 12:1.
My problem with the degree wheel is that I needed something small, 6". Summit's smallest size was
8", which simply wouldn't work with the engine still in the car. Plus, all of their degree wheels are
made to go on the flywheel side of the motor.
 Sounds like you did your LS build right, might not have spent a whole lot, but the details like
degreeing after shaving the block/head make all the difference.

1.
chunky - 08-25-2007, 08:57 AM

o Reply
All the previous pictures are down right now. My server will be back up later in the day. Sorry about
that.

I just wanted to update with some preliminary results.

So in a nutshell, with the ported head and degreed exhaust cam, I'm making essentially the same
peak numbers with a lot more midrange. Once I drop the VTEC down to 5000-5500, the midrange will
really fill out. The a/f is all over the place, so there's some good gains to be had from just a/f tuning,
not to mention the intake cam angles were untouched and will surely need to be tweaked. The final
numbers are shown SAE corrected, with STD correction, it made 232. And remember, that's
UNTUNED. :p

Thanks to MAINSTREAM for letting me hop on the dyno on Thurs. night before I left town.

1.
ash7 - 01-03-2008, 12:12 AM

o Reply
Haynes ain't got nothin on this.

excellent write up - very informative

thankyou!
-jonathan

1.
StreetHazard - 06-09-2009, 12:47 PM

o Reply
I am a complete NOOB, I read this twice and hardly understood ANY of it!

WTF is lash?
Why is there fuggin clay everywhere?
how the fvck did you make that degree wheel?
how the fvck do you use a degree wheel?
 I dont know chit compared to this guy! ima get back to being happy about my ability to change my
own oil.

1.
speedminded - 06-09-2009, 12:54 PM

o Reply
Originally Posted by StreetHazard
I am a complete NOOB, I read this twice and hardly understood ANY of it!

WTF is lash?
Why is there fuggin clay everywhere?
how the fvck did you make that degree wheel?
how the fvck do you use a degree wheel?

I dont know chit compared to this guy! ima get back to being happy about my ability to change my
own oil.
lol! Nice thread bump

1.
2.0lef_itbs - 07-04-2009, 11:44 PM

o Reply
so why do you want a 50 degree cam gear?is it to have both exhaust and intake at full lift while still
keeping in time?

i am trying to do this on my b series its just a little harder cause of the needed room.
and i am running JUN 3's.

1.
chunky - 07-12-2009, 07:54 PM

o Reply
Originally Posted by 2.0lef_itbs
so why do you want a 50 degree cam gear?is it to have both exhaust and intake at full lift while still
keeping in time?

i am trying to do this on my b series its just a little harder cause of the needed room.
and i am running JUN 3's.
Well, the K-series intake cam gear has a range of either 0-50deg or 0-25deg depending on which part
# you have. The 50deg offers more advance, which typically allows you to get more power out of the
engine if the cams are designed to use the full range of the VTC.
1.
nismo_92 - 08-09-2009, 03:55 AM

o Reply
i saw this run to nite very fast

1.
chunky - 08-09-2009, 01:24 PM

o Reply
thanks man.

Damn. All my pics are down. Hopefully they'll be back up in a bit.

1.
2.0lef_itbs - 08-18-2009, 12:42 AM

o Reply
hey man soo i was putting my motor together my intake valve might as well be touching my piston
i puttied with no head gasket and no lash and had paper thin putty in my relief
whats a safe tolarence for P2V on a B series
.i am looking into fly cutting my pistons(intake relief).good idea?

1.
southside - 10-07-2009, 08:52 AM

o Reply
Head gasket might add a little clearance.What pistons and cams are you using?

1.
masonhenson - 10-07-2009, 09:42 AM

o Reply
nice!