username time status

RT @CliveBuckley: RT @TheNewHead: RT @wjputt: #ukedchat Please re-

tweet TeachMeet 13th Oct in Holywell http://www.teachmeet.org.uk/
taffattack 19:57 #tmhhs Come & present!

#ukedchat RT @jamesmichie: RT @TheHeadsOffice Your views on school

dailydenouement 19:58 behaviour are needed here http://bit.ly/bE7Qfd

My first #ukedchat :) We're just starting to use APP for Numeracy. I'm
OhLottie 19:58 hopeful, but not sure about the best way to log evidence. Post-its?!

Welcome to #ukedchat - Tonight focus "Does APP work? What other

colport 19:59 formative assessment tools do you use? Do they work?"

RT @Julian3576: #ukedchat Assessment needs to be seen as integral to the

BryanPlumb 20:00 learner, not just a tick box to measure learning.

Please remember to use the hashtag #ukedchat to have your comments

ukedchat 20:00 included within the archive

@sh1916 #ukedchat can I suggest that you contact @Sport_ed who is using
DrAshCasey 20:00 a lot of iPad apps in his teaching.

@OhLottie who are you assessing for? why evidence? why the obsession
cleverfiend 20:00 with banks of evidence? what happened to trusting judgements #ukedchat

didactylos 20:00 #ukedchat likely to lurk, not really my area this one

I am hoping the discussion will go beyond APP, to demonstrate good

colport 20:00 practices of formative assessment in all sectors #ukedchat

@cleverfiend Are teachers' judgements in assessment ever enough these

Crosbiei 20:01 days? #ukedchat

Formative assessment/assessment for learning is the key. The work of Black

wjputt 20:01 & William are key to this. #ukedchat

Ideas_Factory 20:01 #ukedchat Simple answer is yes APP does work-when done properly.

Page 1 of 28
 If we can focus on methods people use in collecting and using Assessing
colport 20:01 Pupils Progress in Maths/English and other subjects? #ukedchat

#ukedchat Assessment is great when pupils reflect and reinforce own

Julian3576 20:02 understanding and great when used to inform others.

APP criteria for assessing maths in y1 seems far too complex/OTT to me

artpod 20:02 @colport #ukedchat

Is it too obvious to say that any assessment should be used as an

DrAshCasey 20:02 aid/enhancement of learning and not for number counting... #ukedchat

@Crosbiei @cleverfiend I think tchr opinions are essential, but as with

BryanPlumb 20:03 everything it is all about evidence, evidence, evidence. #ukedchat

#ukedchat I've seen schools bogged down with evidence gathering, target
cleverfiend 20:03 setting and sublevels. Does this improve learning? Convince me :)

03mghanem 20:03 what sorts of methods do different settings use for APP? #ukedchat

APP is a focus area within our (primary) school. I am trying to use

colport 20:03 GoogleForms/Spreadsheet to store data #ukedchat http://bit.ly/8qORcp

DrAshCasey 20:03 @Ideas_Factory isn't the case with all meaningful assessment? #ukedchat

@Ideas_Factory That sounds like discussion over. Can I go to bed now?

Crosbiei 20:03 #ukedchat

I find APP quite liberating in terms of marking - enjoy transparency of

dailydenouement 20:04 sharing AFs & then using level descriptors to give fdback #ukedchat
@artpod I have found maths quite a difficult area for APP -
http://bit.ly/8qORcp - currently trying Google to support collection
colport 20:04 #ukedchat

#ukedchat Please take a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-

Julian3576 20:04 bL1jBLeHU a system I developed to use with my class.

@colport we could but that would take me out of the conversation...I will sit
DrAshCasey 20:04 back for a bit. #ukedchat

Page 2 of 28
 #ukedchat We use PupilAsset.com when doing APP. It has sections to fwrite
KnikiDavies 20:04 in evidence, you can attach photos, video etc as evidence in each

AforL is about learners knowing where they are and what they need to do to
wjputt 20:04 move on. Teachers & peers can help with this. #ukedchat

Ideas_Factory 20:04 @wjputt #ukedchat 'Inside the Black Box' is great book

If assessment linked to school performance or teacher pay, then yes, there

chris_1974 20:04 should be evidence. #ukedchat

@Crosbiei @OhLottie there's a difference between keeping an assessment

cleverfiend 20:05 portfolio and evidencing every assessment decision #ukedchat

RT @wjputt: Formative assessment/assessment for learning is the key. The

DanielHugill 20:05 work of Black & William are key to this. #ukedchat <Totally agree.

OhLottie 20:05 @KnikiDavies Is PupilAsset.com paid for? I'm assuming so! #ukedchat

AforL improves learning & learner capacity to develop as independent

wjputt 20:05 learners & indeed lifelong ones. #ukedchat

colport 20:05 @wjputt Can you link towards Black & William work please? #ukedchat

RT @colport: APP is a focus area within our (primary) school. I am trying to

flyingstartmag 20:05 use GoogleForms/Spreadsheet to store data #ukedchat http://bit.ly/8qORcp

#ukedchat If you show loads of evidence for yr 3 pupils, it shows you know
KnikiDavies 20:05 what you're looking for and you can be relied on to assess others

#ukedchat Formative assessment at its simplest: If chn didn't 'get'

OhLottie 20:05 something today, then I don't move on! I change my approach + try again.

#ukedchat ...then I can select all and then mark chn who didnt get it. Find
KnikiDavies 20:06 APP hardest in maths, and easiest & most useful in writing

#ukedchat APP is really the only alternative to testing-in fact it is the ONLY
Ideas_Factory 20:06 alternative to testing-has anybody anything else?

Page 3 of 28
 Would it take away the strain if pupils taught to link evidence to system
BryanPlumb 20:06 themselves? ie pupil photos work and uploads to APP? #ukedchat

grahamwarren 20:06 #ukedchat you can't fatten a pig by weighing it...

My school has used 3 different methods of target setting in the last 3 yrs.
Crosbiei 20:06 And APP has not featured in any of them! #ukedchat

@DrAshCasey No, I was hoping to use this as a starter, then move towards
colport 20:06 other subjects when people have shared these experiences #ukedchat

#ukedchat In maths I am trying out using photos and conversations with

KnikiDavies 20:06 chn. Have made "clumps" of APP strands that appear in each block...

@ohlottie #ukedchat I'm afraid so, but it is excellent! Shows graphs of pupil
KnikiDavies 20:07 progress that parents find really helpful, whole school data..

http://www.assessment-reform-group.org/publications.html #ukedchat
Ideas_Factory 20:07 Very very good website/assoc and brill publications

BryanPlumb 20:07 PupilAsset is a paid for service, yes. #ukedchat

I am worried that my own daughter's secondary school still focus on

colport 20:07 summative assessment procedures #ukedchat Will this always be the way?

@BryanPlumb But should evidence be that important? Cant we just be

Crosbiei 20:07 trusted to be honest with what we've seen? #ukedchat

Ideas_Factory 20:08 @Crosbiei #ukedchat Is not about honesty-it's about accuracy.

@Ideas_Factory But you still get colleagues who huff and puff. To me, APP
colport 20:08 places the professional status back into teaching #ukedchat

APP can be useful for teaching assistants who support students' learning
cleverfiend 20:08 http://fcr.me.uk/dfEVgq asking the right questions #ukedchat

Haven't used APP in secondary Maths. We test regularly and rely on teacher
tj007 20:08 judgment a lot. #ukedchat

Page 4 of 28
 @Crosbiei #ukedchat But without evidence how do we know if one person's
KnikiDavies 20:09 "uses variety of connectives" looks same as someone else's?

MrKp 20:09 @grahamwarren #ukedchat very true!

@BryanPlumb: pupils taught to link evidence to system themselves< ideal

Julian3576 20:09 solution, reflection rather than assessment #ukedchat

RT @grahamwarren: #ukedchat you can't fatten a pig by weighing it...- Great

SkoorBttaM 20:09 point!!

APP for a whole class seems a huge job - and doing it for only 6 seems silly
MrKp 20:09 how do you square the circle? #ukedchat

#ukedchat RT @wjputt: @colport as schools adopt more AfL approaches the

dailydenouement 20:10 learning will improve - will take time to 'lose' numbers etc..

@colport @Ideas_Factory do we have a culture of 'teacher knows best' and

DrAshCasey 20:10 therefore some of our colleagues don't engage w new ideas #ukedchat

But is APP way forwrd for assessment? It is not a requirement for ICT in
largerama 20:10 2ndary now change of govt but is it best way to assess? #ukedchat

@crosbiei #ukedchat When schools are judged by value added, and pupils
KnikiDavies 20:10 move between schools, v important to know levels sent up are reliable
RT @Ideas_Factory: http://www.assessment-reform-
group.org/publications.html #ukedchat Very very good website/assoc and
wjputt 20:10 brill publications

@colport #ukedchat Agreed-Teachers can huff & puff all they like-they need
Ideas_Factory 20:10 to have evidence to back up levels-Answers 'How do you know?'

@MrKp If you place a group of 'similar' pupils together, then you can judge
colport 20:10 those who are better or not as good as the middle #ukedchat

sampling six children doesn't seem to tally well with 'every child matters'...
sellyeve 20:10 #ukedchat

@Ideas_Factory #ukedchat Should the ability to assess accurately be more

Crosbiei 20:10 of a focus in ITT?

Page 5 of 28
 @KnikiDavies No worries, will point the people with the money at school in
OhLottie 20:10 its direction :) #ukedchat

Shadow Cabinet speculation distracting me from #ukedchat - such a politics

dailydenouement 20:10 geek am I!

@KnikiDavies #ukedchat But even if levels were sent with the child, would
Crosbiei 20:11 you make your own evaluation of that child or rely on some1 elses?

#ukedchat - sorry I'm late - what is tonight's topic? (sorry to non-teacher

duckinwales 20:11 followers - may be a few educational tweets occuring)

deerwood 20:11 are we talking about APP and assessment in #ukedchat ?

#ukedchat Every professional needs to be accountable in this day and age,

Julian3576 20:11 just that tick boxes say nothing.

@MrKp #ukedchat I do it for the whole class but only show detailed
KnikiDavies 20:11 annotated evidence for 3.

@colport I think you might be right to worry. I have lots of secondary

OhLottie 20:11 teacher friends + the focus seems to be different. #ukedchat

@Crosbiei I actually think it should, I am training at the moment and there

03mghanem 20:12 seems to be no clear guidance on how to do this well! #ukedchat

@DrAshCasey @colport #ukedchat It used to be that assessment was based

Ideas_Factory 20:12 on teacher say-so.It should be based on teacher know-how.APP is this

#ukedchat Some great work from colleagues on AfL for last 2 years at
wjputt 20:12 Holywell - moving learning & achievement on. #tmhhs 13-10-10 Pls come.

So many competing initiatives & requests for data reporting at 2ndary think
dailydenouement 20:12 some teachers see it as an imposition #ukedchat

@mrkp #ukedchat Assessing the 3 focus chn shows I know what I'm doing
KnikiDavies 20:12 and can be trusted when they look at results I give for other 30

@DrAshCasey @Ideas_Factory You have to back up your judgment with

colport 20:12 evidence, via observations, work etc. #ukedchat

Page 6 of 28
 @largerama It's a hell of a lot better than purely relying on exams :o)
BryanPlumb 20:12 #ukedchat

every assessment approach has pros and cons - you need to have more than
sellyeve 20:12 one method in the toolkit #ukedchat

largerama 20:13 @BryanPlumb but is it better than NC levels #ukedchat

I do actually fear for APP, and the principles behind it, under the new
colport 20:13 government #ukedchat

sellyeve 20:13 @colport it's not foolproof - but then nothing is! #ukedchat

Wanted to #ukedchat from @flyingstartedu 2nite, but thu is bad night 4 me

flyingstartmag 20:13 2 sit @ computer. Hopefully i'll have great guest review 2 post :)

Okay, I'll go watch Eastenders or something more life affirming #ukedchat

deerwood 20:13 LOL
RT @dailydenouement: #ukedchat RT @wjputt: @colport as schools adopt
more AfL approaches the learning will improve - will take time to 'lose'
NSRiazat 20:13 numbers etc..

Used a grt approach in recent work called 'teaching experiments' where you
DrAshCasey 20:13 try to understand the students' construction of an idea #ukedchat

@duckinwales @deerwood Does APP work? What other formative

colport 20:13 assessment tools do you use? Do they work? #ukedchat

@Crosbiei #ukedchat point is tht value added uses levels sent up.If chld
KnikiDavies 20:13 comes to me with 3B I have to make 2 SLs regardless of what i think

Intrigued that most find APP harder with num. than lit. We're just
OhLottie 20:13 introducing it in num. + my feeling was that it'd be easier! #ukedchat

@Ideas_Factory @colport it may be 'a way' but I am sceptical of anything

DrAshCasey 20:14 that is branded as 'the way' the world was flat afterall #ukedchat

@OhLottie #ukedchat EG: probability doesn't appear with other data

KnikiDavies 20:14 handling targets, appears somewhere in multiplying or something...

Page 7 of 28
 Anyone you still doing APP and half termly/termly 'tests'? Doesn't this
SkoorBttaM 20:14 defeat the object?!? #ukedchat

#ukedchat Assessment should not just data points, but show learning taking
Julian3576 20:14 place as it happens. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzGvTELAz_k

@OhLottie #ukedchat It's easier in that it's more clearcut, harder in that
KnikiDavies 20:14 there are millions of descriptors seemingly randomly arranged!

@03mghanem #ukedchat I completely agree. I have only been teaching a

Crosbiei 20:14 few yrs and have had a v steep learning curve on assessment.

@DrAshCasey Agree - definitely linked to culture and the 'way we do things'.

NSRiazat 20:14 #ukedchat

RT @colport: I do actually fear for APP, and the principles behind it, under
Crosbiei 20:15 the new government #ukedchat

#ukedchat I find it frustrating that we use APP throughout science then

cleverfiend 20:15 report on level descriptors not APP at the end of each KS. Bit daft!

@Crosbiei @KnikiDavies Surely you start with the levels chn come with but
OhLottie 20:15 can disagree with them after your own assessment? #ukedchat

@thingwallpri #ukedchat We do termly formal assessments in writing and

KnikiDavies 20:15 mark the piece using APP grid. V. good for setting next target

@sellyeve Summative assessments are not foolproof either. With these

colport 20:15 things, there needs to be careful moderation & consideration #ukedchat

#ukedchat When do you assess? When taught? Can they do it two weeks
MrG_ICT 20:15 later?

@largerama every assessment system routes back (or should do) to NC

sellyeve 20:15 levels #ukedchat

@KnikiDavies #ukedchat But do u always agree that they were a 3B when

Crosbiei 20:15 they came up? We have a real prob with that from KS1 to KS2

@colport agreed - but then you can't look at any data in isolation...
sellyeve 20:16 #ukedchat

Page 8 of 28
 Reception teachers have been doing this for years-assessment based on
Ideas_Factory 20:16 careful observation & recording of pupil work #ukedchat

Have consistent school designed APP for all subjects use this to assess &
gideonwilliams 20:16 monitor attainment/progress then link APP to eportfolio #ukedchat

@MrG_ICT I assess as I am going along, then make judgements on a half-

colport 20:16 termly basis #ukedchat

@largerama good question. I couldn't possibly say, not being a teacher and
BryanPlumb 20:16 thus not involved in a daily basis. Thoughts anyone? #ukedchat

@Crosbiei I certainly don't always agree that. That's why you need lots of
KnikiDavies 20:16 evidence and moderation #ukedchat

@OhLottie #ukedchat When LA look at your school data, they take the
KnikiDavies 20:17 levels they came up with as base to assess your school's performance

@MrKp To me, as a teacher, I should know where all my (primary school)

colport 20:17 pupils are in the progress within my classroom #ukedchat

the problem with APP is that the experts have added to it & evolved it as
sellyeve 20:17 they went along! #ukedchat

@DrAshCasey @colport #ukedchat It's onlt 'the way' because there's no

Ideas_Factory 20:17 viable alternative available

#ukedchat As a teacher I find it hard to relate to the Science APP... but know
Julian3576 20:17 APP is the best way to assess science, just who write them?

@gideonwilliams I think e-portfolios have a lot of scope in secondary

colport 20:18 schools especially. Keep an eye on www.myebooklearning.com #ukedchat

@Julian3576 #ukedchat Normally a panel of emminent experts in the field-

Ideas_Factory 20:18 who you've never heard of....

APP for reading is a tough one I find. Using a memo machine is useful but
iteachyear4 20:18 can distract the children from what is said #ukedchat

@Crosbiei A level 3c at KS1 is automatically 'secure' level 3 at KS2, hence 3b

DeputyHeadDunn 20:19 #ukedchat

Page 9 of 28
 @iteachyear4 #ukedchat Yes reading is tough I find. Esp as each level in each
KnikiDavies 20:19 AF is only 1 or 2 sentences yet covers so much!

@Ideas_Factory @colport I don't buy that. I used cooperative learning for

DrAshCasey 20:19 peer/peer assessment and my observations to gd effect #ukedchat

@Ideas_Factory @DrAshCasey It is hard to think about something to replace

colport 20:19 APP which does not verge towards summarive #ukedchat

@KnikiDavies #ukedchat How can the LA 'come-up' with levels without links
Ideas_Factory 20:19 to raiseonline etc?

RT @colport: @MrKp as a teacher, I know where all my pupils are< but do

Julian3576 20:19 all parents, other teachers and the pupils them selves? #ukedchat

Some secondary sci depts are starting to equate APP with AfL - an activity
cleverfiend 20:19 that happens once a half term/topic -that's bad surely? #ukedchat

@sellyeve i know that but is the app a more accurate/efficient/easier route

largerama 20:19 to assessing the levels #ukedchat and is it here to stay?

I like this idea a lot! RT @colport I am trying to use

OhLottie 20:19 GoogleForms/Spreadsheet to store data #ukedchat http://bit.ly/8qORcp
RT @colport: @gideonwilliams I think e-portfolios have a lot of scope in
secondary schools especially. Keep an eye on www.myebooklearning.com
largerama 20:20 #ukedchat

#ukedchat I know that most of the people I with really really don't like APP
KnikiDavies 20:20 as they see it as pointless paperwork.

@OhLottie Thanks. I had a brain wave on a train from Glasgow. It's free, and
colport 20:20 always accessible for me to add #ukedchat http://bit.ly/8qORcp

Ideas_Factory 20:20 @cleverfiend #ukedchat Doesn't AfL happen every lesson?!

APP with target setting could be real buy in for students - must be
gideonwilliams 20:20 transparent and valued #ukedchat

@KnikiDavies Are you talking about end of KS1 levels? I was talking about
OhLottie 20:20 levels from previous teacher, whatever the year group #ukedchat

Page 10 of 28
 @OhLottie #ukedchat I tend 2 assume that the previous teacher in my schl
KnikiDavies 20:21 was right in their judgement as we have rigorous moderation process

@colport @Ideas_Factory when did assessment become purely objective?

DrAshCasey 20:21 We are people and teachers and need to be subjective #ukedchat

@largerama I suspect that with the withdrawal of funding it may be on its

sellyeve 20:21 way out - it was a bit of a hard sell to begin with... #ukedchat
True! RT @Ideas_Factory Reception has been doing this for years-
assessment based on careful observation & recording of pupil work
OhLottie 20:21 #ukedchat

@DrAshCasey @colport #ukedchat But that's obs of pupils in grps not as

Ideas_Factory 20:21 indiv-that's the difference

@colport #ukedchat I agree but with my management head on I don't want

MrKp 20:21 to force people to do something that has massive workload cont...

@artpod Agreed, which is why I am always looking to make the process

colport 20:21 easier for me #ukedchat

@cleverfiend APP can be used formatively or summatively - it's not what

Grevster73 20:22 they do, it's the way that they do it! #ukedchat

@Ideas_Factory AfL should happen all the time - but when APP self
cleverfiend 20:22 assessment tasks are termly AfL tasks confusion reigns for some #ukedchat

@Julian3576 If communication channels are open and accessible. We need

colport 20:22 to open the school doors a little more? #ukedchat

@MrKp Absolutely, which is why I try to use technology to help me

colport 20:23 streamline the process http://bit.ly/8qORcp #ukedchat

@KnikiDavies But surely if you're using it to inform your future planning, it's
Laura_987 20:23 not pointless? #ukedchat

@DrAshCasey @colport Ahh #ukedchat conundrum-how can we assess

Ideas_Factory 20:23 pupils in everything? Good point weakness in objective driven APP

@Ideas_Factory: #ukedchat panel of emminent experts< Why so little hands

Julian3576 20:23 on finding out in APP which early scientific fascination is based?

Page 11 of 28
gideonwilliams 20:23 Got to move away from fixed summative assessments #ukedchat

@Ideas_Factory @colport one of the key elements of cooperative leanring

DrAshCasey 20:23 is individual accountability i.e. children as individuals #ukedchat

@KnikiDavies Exactly - and open to so much interpretation! Allowing chn

iteachyear4 20:23 time to just talk about books is useful though #ukedchat

#ukedchat I think a problem is that levels etc are so high stakes. If not so
KnikiDavies 20:23 much rode on them I think APP etc could be lots more useful.

@cleverfiend #ukedchat Can't see why-APP is objective driven assessment.

Ideas_Factory 20:24 AfL is helping learning not a record of what's learnt

@DrAshCasey @Ideas_Factory Assessment became objective with the Nat

colport 20:24 Curr, I'm afraid. We need to be subjective as teachers tho #ukedchat

DrAshCasey 20:24 RT @Grevster73: @DrAshCasey I like 'fuzzy assessment' #ukedchat

@Laura_987 #ukedchat I don't think it is pointless at all, I like it, but is hard
KnikiDavies 20:24 to convince others of that!

Grevster73 20:24 @DrAshCasey I like 'fuzzy assessment' #ukedchat

@KnikiDavies Absolutely. Too many school managers (and parents, it must

colport 20:25 be said) rely on summative assessment scores #ukedchat

@Julian3576 #ukedchat Agreed-that's the thing about science APP no

Ideas_Factory 20:25 investigation

@KnikiDavies #ukedchat day-to-day assessment through APP does not have

Grevster73 20:25 to be highstakes

RT @KnikiDavies @OhLottie never assume - I used to assume exam papers

duckinwales 20:25 were checked before publishing! (sorry keep missing out #ukedchat)

RT @colport: @Julian3576 We need to open the school doors a little

Julian3576 20:25 more?< can only be a good thing #ukedchat

Page 12 of 28
 @Laura_987i agree,but do think that it can seem pointless when th only
03mghanem 20:26 thing that really matters in the scheme of things are grades#ukedchat

@dan_bowen I don't fear APP, It's just huge in Primary Maths. I am trying to
colport 20:26 streamline and make the process easier for all #ukedchat

@Grevster73 it shouldn't be a choice between teaching and assessing

sellyeve 20:26 either! #ukedchat

@colport @duckinwales @deerwood #ukedchat honestly, APP is easy and

dan_bowen 20:26 robust and the best way to identify level..no other way.

KnikiDavies 20:26 @Grevster73 #ukedchat But if it is going to replace SATS then it will be

@Grevster73 objectivity is a myth. It's the atlantis of assessment (in this

DrAshCasey 20:26 case). fuzzy will always be there even when uninvited #ukedchat

@KnikiDavies Sorry didn't mean to include you in the hard to convince

Laura_987 20:26 bunch. Glad you like it :) #ukedchat

@Laura_987 Hee! Yes I think it is really useful. #ukedchat How do you get
KnikiDavies 20:27 others to see it as useful not just another hoop?

@colport @KnikiDavies oh so true #ukedchat - so easy to fall into the trap of

duckinwales 20:27 teaching to exams - esp with time/management pressures.

@Ideas_Factory: #ukedchat The thing about science APP no investigation<

Julian3576 20:27 All about applying science in history but no digging for worms...

DeputyHeadDunn 20:27 @Colport yeah that's what we did #ukedchat

MrKp 20:27 @colport #ukedchat nice idea

Am so pleased to be reading & learning - embedding APP in KS3 English is

dailydenouement 20:27 part of my new role. Am learning lots re. evidence etc #ukedchat

@APrimaryNQT I agree but struggle to do this as we plan as a year group

Crosbiei 20:27 #ukedchat

Page 13 of 28
 Would it help if you could photo work with your phone, instantly upload to
BryanPlumb 20:27 pupils e-portfolio and allow you to select APP marks? #ukedchat

@dan_bowen Please share any links to #ukedchat though. It will be good to

colport 20:27 share via the blog.

colport 20:28 @DeputyHeadDunn I have tweeted a lot in #ukedchat - What did you do?

Edtech20 : Opinions & Discussions on kosmix 2.0 #edtech20 #liveclass20

web20education 20:28 #elemchat #scichat #ukedchat #web20chat http://icio.us/j3dytv

RT @sellyeve: @Grevster73 it shouldn't be a choice between teaching and

duckinwales 20:28 assessing either! #ukedchat

@colport #ukedchat Using APP in maths is easy-working out level using that
Ideas_Factory 20:28 daft formula is the pain-try @andreacarr1 rising stars i-progress

RT @BryanPlumb: Would it help if you could photo work with your phone,
dailydenouement 20:28 instantly upload to pupils e-portfolio & select APP marks? #ukedchat

@Ideas_Factory I'm quite familiar with what APP is and what APP isn't
cleverfiend 20:28 http://fcr.me.uk/amL2Pp - I speak only about what I see #ukedchat

Okay, new article on bee-it will be looking into APP systems and how they
BryanPlumb 20:29 can be improved to make your life as a teacher easier #ukedchat

@Colport I'm new here tonight! We integrated some of APP into our
DeputyHeadDunn 20:29 progress ladders #ukedchat

@Ideas_Factory Using it is easy...I agree. It has been collecting/storing the

colport 20:29 evidence that has proved a challenge in our school #ukedchat

@cleverfiend #ukedchat Not trying to say otherwise-just can't believe some

Ideas_Factory 20:29 confuse the two and lose the most important AfL!

Right #ukedchat very difficult to detail APP in here but....levelling using

dan_bowen 20:29 wooly descriptions has always been crazy...and misinterpreted..

KnikiDavies 20:29 @Julian3576 #ukedchat I thought the science APP is *all* investigation?

Page 14 of 28
 #ukedchat having trained schools with it they have benefited by changing
dan_bowen 20:30 schemes of work...to fit the levels better...

sellyeve 20:30 @DeputyHeadDunn hi & welcome! #ukedchat

#ukedchat my version of science assessment evidence, better than testing?

Julian3576 20:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P0kvFPDFn8 9yo animation.

@KnikiDavies That's a good question. Depends on teachers' outlook. Have

Laura_987 20:30 to ask, just new gov. policy or is it actually useful? #ukedchat

@Colport These are stuck inside children's books and they help assess
DeputyHeadDunn 20:30 #ukedchat

@duckinwales That is the concern, and I really cannot see things changing
colport 20:30 either #ukedchat

RT @colport: @Ideas_Factory Using it is easy.It has been collecting/storing

dailydenouement 20:30 the evidence that has proved a challenge in our school #ukedchat

#ukedchat APP grids allow us to state that a childs work is 5low, secure
dan_bowen 20:30 high..5c, 5a with certainty

@DeputyHeadDunn Good to see you in #ukedchat. You're very welcome.

colport 20:31 Would love to learn more about progress ladders & APP #ukedchat

#ukedchat problem is poor dissemination by heads of department to their

dan_bowen 20:31 teams leads to inconsistency...

DeputyHeadDunn 20:31 @sellyeve thanks! #ukedchat

@colport #ukedchat We put little post its in books and review every half
Ideas_Factory 20:31 term. We have Jigsaws in books so kids colour in every time.

@KnikiDavies Agreed science APP can be what you want it to be - be it part

cleverfiend 20:31 investigations, whole investigations, data work or more #ukedchat

@KnikiDavies #ukedchat AF3-5 are classic investigation - AF1&2 are more

Grevster73 20:31 content/concepts

Page 15 of 28
 RT @Ideas_Factory: @colport #ukedchat We put little post its in books and
review every half term. We have Jigsaws in books so kids colour in every
Crosbiei 20:32 time.

@duckinwales @KnikiDavies #ukedchat I hear you, but I think rigorous +

OhLottie 20:32 joint moderation between year groups can help :)

@colport #ukedchat Didn't I email those jigsaws to you? APP based would
Ideas_Factory 20:32 help

#ukedchat @colport - to be honest, with the new £ pressures I see it

duckinwales 20:32 getting worse : (

RT @KnikiDavies: #ukedchat I thought science APP is all investigation?< Just

Julian3576 20:32 wording does not reflect that at an early age, maybe just me???

@Ideas_Factory You may remember my Elmer APP Writing assessment

colport 20:32 frame in the summer? #ukedchat

sellyeve 20:32 @Ideas_Factory liking the jigsaw idea! #ukedchat

#ukedchat I work with consultants who have been involved in edu for years
dan_bowen 20:32 and are top of their game and they rate APP for all core subejcts

#ukedchat //by the way APP cannot be done in Excel, should not be done
dan_bowen 20:33 for everyone and is periodic..so you cant APP one piece of work

@sellyeve #ukedchat Have got for every level in writing and Maths. Also APP
Ideas_Factory 20:33 ICT for levels 1-5

DeputyHeadDunn 20:33 @OhLotiie I agree totally #ukedchat

#ukedchat right thats me off my soapbox but I feel passionaltely about APP
dan_bowen 20:33 and happy to help anyone understand it..

Yes, and I amended them to Elmer :-) #ukedchat Wasted a few hours playing
colport 20:33 with them!

@colport #ukedchat I thought so-that Elmer was inspired but are you using
Ideas_Factory 20:33 it?

Page 16 of 28
DeputyHeadDunn 20:33 @Colport OSTED (didn't mean to swear) loved progress ladders #ukedchat

Wow, look at the time. Moving the conversation along...Could APP

colport 20:34 principles be used within other subject areas? #ukedchat

sellyeve 20:34 @Ideas_Factory sounds great! Have you a link at all? #ukedchat

@DeputyHeadDunn Can you link to a blog posting, or example of your

colport 20:34 progress ladders? #ukedchat

DeputyHeadDunn 20:34 @Colport Will happily share what we do with you #ukedchat

Grevster73 20:35 @dan_bowen #ukedchat is there a common understanding of APP?

DeputyHeadDunn 20:35 @Colport...not yet, just setting blog up, but can chat/email? #ukedchat

@dan_bowen can see you're an enthusiast - but...do you think it's doable
sellyeve 20:35 for all those subjects? #ukedchat

@DeputyHeadDunn Please mind your language in #ukedchat ;-) - We love

colport 20:35 our inspectors! LOL

anyone seen super stickers APP target setting stickers? http://is.gd/fQ6en

primarypete_ 20:35 any opinions? #ukedchat

@cleverfiend AfL should inform the kids so they can improve grades, but not
mwnm 20:35 only done with APP #ukedchat

@dan_bowen Can you explain/elaborate on last tweet for a novice? ;)

dailydenouement 20:35 #ukedchat
RT @dan_bowen: #ukedchat I work with consultants who have been
involved in edu for years and are top of their game and they rate APP for all
NSRiazat 20:35 core subejcts

Could be & should be consistency of approach for kids & parents. RT

dailydenouement 20:36 @colport: Could APP be used within other subject areas? #ukedchat

Page 17 of 28
 @colport #ukedchat I'd be interested to see how it could. We are racking
KnikiDavies 20:36 our brains trying to think of how to assess foundation subjects!

@Ideas_Factory Ah, no> The literacy team were not *ready* for APP writing
colport 20:36 - They are stuck with Ros Wilson! #ukedchat

Online converter - convert video, images, audio and documents for free
MoodleMcKean 20:37 http://bit.ly/d2pVRk #edtech #ukedchat #edchat #elearning #mlearning

@sellyeve: @dan_bowen ... do you think it's doable for all subjects?
Julian3576 20:37 <certainly especially if seen in cross curricular context #ukedchat

DeputyHeadDunn 20:37 @Colport sorry about the swearing :) #ukedchat

@colport The APP guidelines exist for foundation subjects at KS3 - new
DanielHugill 20:37 government has no intention of releasing them!! #ukedchat

DeputyHeadDunn 20:37 @KnikiDavies we use progress ladders for all our subjects #ukedchat

Catching up on #ukedchat 1 point is a constant, APP means many things to

kvnmcl 20:38 many people. No consistency

@DeputyHeadDunn #ukedchat What are you assessing? Skills or knowledge

KnikiDavies 20:38 and how do you assess them?

DrAshCasey 20:38 @colport 140 characters in APP characteristics...please. #ukedchat

colport 20:38 @dan_bowen KS1&2 in all? #ukedchat

@primarypete_ Nice idea, but is the inability to link evidence holding this
BryanPlumb 20:38 back? #ukedchat

@KnikiDavies @colport #ukedchat check foundation subject associations for

dan_bowen 20:38 APP guidance...they have been leaked for Art/design etc

@KnikiDavies Sounds familiar - especially if you are delivering a creative

colport 20:38 curriculum #ukedchat

Page 18 of 28
DrAshCasey 20:38 @colport 140 characters on APP characteristic...pls. #ukedchat

@BryanPlumb: @primarypete_ Nice idea, but is the inability to link evidence

Julian3576 20:39 holding this back? #ukedchat< hehe, shouldn't be!

#ukedchat @KnikiDavies @colport We r racking our brains trying to think of

duckinwales 20:40 how to assess foundation subjects! < can student set own goals?

@colport #ukedchat Yes we are, we were an IPC school and tried to use
KnikiDavies 20:40 their assessment package but it was unmanageable

@KnikiDavies mostly skills, assessed by teacher and child through work and
DeputyHeadDunn 20:40 discussion #ukedchat
@DeputyHeadDunn @colport Whats the difference between ofsted
inspectors and plastic surgeons..Plastic surgeons pluck features :0)
MrKp 20:40 #ukedchat

RT @dan_bowen: @KnikiDavies @colport #ukedchat check found subject

DanielHugill 20:40 associations for APP guidance...now leaked for all foundation subjects.

Lurking in #ukedchat tonight. Interesting points being made but I can't join
familysimpson 20:41 in as packing for school trip! Do I get a D-?

One of my colleagues found flaws in the summative use of APP Writing:

ChrisPadden 20:41 http://bit.ly/a2pwBT More research to follow later this term #ukedchat

RT @DrAshCasey: @colport 140 characters in APP characteristics...please.

colport 20:41 #ukedchat <Anyone help? Please?

duckinwales 20:42 #ukedchat @familysimpson - only if we can agree assessment criteria : P

@duckinwales #ukedchat would you use APP guidelines for foundation

DanielHugill 20:42 subjects - even though not official?

@KnikiDavies: @colport #ukedchat tried their assessment but it was

Julian3576 20:42 unmanageable< have you tried https://www.simplyefficientsoftware.co.uk

#ukedchat there needs to be evidence-based progression, but Bloom's

Grevster73 20:43 Taxonomy is a good start for making your own

Page 19 of 28
colport 20:43 Does all formative assessment practice stop at the end of KS3? #ukedchat

currently considering using evernote & itouch to document evidence for

primarypete_ 20:44 APP. Any comments / ideas welcome #ukedchat

KnikiDavies 20:44 @Julian3576 No, is it ay good? #ukedchat

DrAshCasey 20:44 @familysimpson for taking kids on a trip? No A+ ... good on you #ukedchat

@ChrisPadden #ukedchat How odd, i found the opposite, that I had lots at
KnikiDavies 20:44 low and secure and very few at high, due to gaps eg in punctuation

RT @Grevster73: #ukedchat there needs to be evidence-based progression,

iteachyear4 20:45 but Bloom's Taxonomy is a good start for making your own

@Grevster73 I notice a lot of U.S. edu tweeters refer to Bloom's Taxonomy

colport 20:45 rather a lot #ukedchat

@colport no...some subjects still continue as a core/non examination

DrAshCasey 20:45 subjects. #ukedchat

@Grevster73 #ukedchat.. obviously not if we take tonights

dan_bowen 20:45 tweets....dissemination in depts from training poor.

@duckinwales #ukedchat would you use APP guidelines for foundation

Julian3576 20:45 subjects <most LEA writing descriptors were just like APP.

@DanielHugill #ukedchat - as long as you use it as just that - a guideline -

duckinwales 20:45 modified with professional judgement & knowledge.

@Julian3576: @duckinwales #ukedchat it seems a shame they will not be

DanielHugill 20:46 officially released - really useful in RE.
We made an assessment framework for the Welsh: APP for Wales :)
http://bit.ly/WelshAPP Used by 10% of Welsh schools at last count
ChrisPadden 20:46 #ukedchat

Grevster73 20:46 @colport #ukedchat what's your thoughts on it?

Page 20 of 28
sellyeve 20:46 @colport Bloom's Taxonomy v. useful indeed #ukedchat

@Grevster73 Do you find that Bloom's matches well to APP level

Arakwai 20:46 descriptors on science ?#ukedchat

@primarypete_ I am trying Google to store and collect data http://colport-

colport 20:46 teaching.blogspot.com/ #ukedchat

@dan_bowen @colport would be interested to help...if I knew what it was.

DrAshCasey 20:47 #ukedchat

Is anyone else here a little worried that AfL has come to mean APP in the
mberry 20:47 eyes of so many? #ukedchat

@colport I know in my training, for which @Grevster73 was a big part of, we
iteachyear4 20:47 did quite a lot of Blooms and it is useful starting #ukedchat

Prepared to skinned alive here, but is APP really THAT different to Ros
OhLottie 20:47 Wilson? #ukedchat

@Arakwai #ukedchat ish!!! I was disappointed by the progression (and lack

Grevster73 20:47 of evidence base) of APP in science

KS3 APP guidance goes down to level 3 for for foundation subjects - it's not
mberry 20:47 that difficult to convert ATs L1& L2 to APP. #ukedchat

sellyeve 20:47 @Ideas_Factory great - thanks! #ukedchat

#ukedchat My experience of APP is that it forced careful planning to be

DanielHugill 20:48 broad in coverage of skills and content - also form' asses' easier

@primarypete_ Yes, but the wi-fi really struggles with ipod/pad within
colport 20:48 school, although can always sync later #ukedchat

@OhLottie Found that APP tends to be more accurate, Ros Wilson can be a
DeputyHeadDunn 20:48 little over-generous on levels #ukedchat

#ukedchat argh new twitter is getting the better of me....cant follow back
dan_bowen 20:48 the threads...people asking about links etc..sorry...

Page 21 of 28
 @sellyeve @Grevster73 U.S. colleagues seem very keen on it. I think i'd
colport 20:48 need to read more #ukedchat

@mberry #ukedchat noooooo AfL APP completly different however AfL can
dan_bowen 20:49 be used to help make APP judgements

primarypete_ 20:49 @colport good to know - will check it out bit more :) #ukedchat

@primarypete_ I wrote this a while ago http://bit.ly/c9hS3M #ukedchat

tj007 20:49 #evernote

@DanielHugill hmmm - thought the advice was NOT to plan from APP -
sellyeve 20:49 because it inevitably contains gaps #ukedchat

@APrimaryNQT Yes, anyone with a free google account #ukedchat - Really

colport 20:49 easy.

Grevster73 20:49 @mberry #ukedchat yes, but APP & AfL can work together really well

BryanPlumb 20:49 @dan_bowen In future, especially for #ukedchat, use Twitterfall.com :-)

@primarypete_ I am very pleased with how it is gathering the data.

colport 20:49 Especially when export to excel, then can sort etc. #ukedchat

#ukedchat sorry I've seemed to remember about debate every day then
marketspi 20:50 forget on actual Thursday. Will catch up on archive. Looks good!

Last ten minutes of #ukedchat - What works well in APP data collection (or
colport 20:50 formative assessment collection)?

@Grevster73 I love Bloom's as a structure (I'm such a geek) and find the kids
Arakwai 20:50 grasp it pretty quickly and well for peer & self ass #ukedchat

DeputyHeadDunn 20:50 @dan_bowen Agree totally :) #ukedchat

mberry 20:51 @dan_bowen the L is so, so much more important than the A #ukedchat

Page 22 of 28
 Too true "@DrAshCasey: @Ideas_Factory @colport it may be 'a way' but I
artpod 20:51 am sceptical of anything that is branded as 'the way' #ukedchat" :)

@dan_bowen Had that problem last week. Try TweetDeck. Much easier!
Crosbiei 20:51 #ukedchat

we should take account of all sources of assessment info in planning to meet

sellyeve 20:51 children's needs #ukedchat

RT @cleverfiend: @mberry I think 1 driver behind APP was to encourage

colport 20:51 quality AfL in the classroom but I agree many think AfL=APP #ukedchat

Grevster73 20:51 @Arakwai #ukedchat not a Geek - I love proper Blooms!

@sellyeve #ukedchat When we checked to see if students could meet APP

DanielHugill 20:51 guidelines there were gaps - we then adapted SOWs - much improved!

@OhLottie @KnikiDavies To prove that we are performing as teachers?

Crosbiei 20:51 #ukedchat

@mberry I think one driver behind APP was to encourage quality AfL in the
cleverfiend 20:51 classroom but I agree many think AfL=APP #ukedchat

RT @sellyeve: we should take account of all sources of assessment info in

colport 20:52 planning to meet children's needs #ukedchat

RT @sellyeve: we should take account of all sources of assessment info in

Grevster73 20:52 planning to meet children's needs #ukedchat

sellyeve 20:52 @DanielHugill interesting! #ukedchat

colport 20:52 @cleverfiend Absolutely agree. I think the CPD got confused #ukedchat

We used APP level descriptors to help chn self assess their work in Science
iteachyear4 20:53 investigators #ukedchat

Crosbiei 20:53 @dan_bowen Shouldnt APP be a type of AfL? #ukedchat

Page 23 of 28
Grevster73 20:54 @mberry #ukedchat But you can't have good L without the A!

sellyeve 20:54 @iteachyear4 we use 'child-speak' #ukedchat

@sellyeve #ukedchat For example at higher levels we has overlooked parts

DanielHugill 20:54 of level descriptors and this focused our mind (and planning)

@DanielHugill having said that, I don't think you can beat having a look at
sellyeve 20:55 the NC level descriptors-all assess derives from these #ukedchat

@cleverfiend @mberry I kind of see APP as an important/useful tool within

Arakwai 20:55 AfL - does that sound right? #ukedchat (with hashtag!)

@mberry: @dan_bowen the L is so, so much more important than the A< A
Julian3576 20:55 can enhance L, no other reason is really worth while #ukedchat

RT @DanielHugill: #ukedchat Issue that many face is the frequent reporting

dailydenouement 20:56 required by SLT vs. a holistic APP judgment after a longer period

@dan_bowen But APP statements could be something used everyday to

Crosbiei 20:56 inform teachers and students where they are heading next. #ukedchat

loving #ukedchat but have to go or I wont get any work done.....see you all,
dan_bowen 20:56 much love Dan x

@Grevster73 you have evidence for this? I'd be willing to concede that good
mberry 20:56 T is dependent on good A, but L can happen without T. #ukedchat

#ukedchat Issue that many face is the frequent reporting required by SLT vs.
DanielHugill 20:56 a holistic APP judgment after a longer period. How to solve?

RT @Arakwai: @cleverfiend @mberry I kind of see APP as an

cleverfiend 20:57 important/useful tool within AfL - does that sound right? #ukedchat <-agree

sellyeve 20:57 @cleverfiend Nat Strat was for teachers #ukedchat

I fear that summative assessments will remain the focus for leaders as
colport 20:57 scores are published. APP will remain the poor relative #ukedchat

Page 24 of 28
 @sellyeve I find it interesting that the Nat Strat didn't write child friendly
cleverfiend 20:57 statements on purpose - how did they envision AfL? #ukedchat

dan_bowen 20:58 @DeputyHeadDunn #ukedchat great thanks

Until teacher's assessment carries more weight, summative scores will

DeputyHeadDunn 20:58 unfortunately count more #ukedchat

sellyeve 20:58 @iteachyear4 haven't seen those... #ukedchat

RT @colport: I fear that summative assessments will remain the focus for
Crosbiei 20:58 leaders as scores are published. APP will remain the poor relative #ukedchat

@sellyeve We used the Badger descriptors which are pretty much child
iteachyear4 20:58 speak #ukedchat

@sellyeve Get in touch with @Grevster73 - he can point you in the right
iteachyear4 20:59 direction, although they are only KS3......for now? #ukedchat

@Arakwai perhaps '... one useful tool ...' but it looks like something invented
mberry 20:59 by people who don't actually teach (says he) #ukedchat

RT @DeputyHeadDunn: Until teacher's assessment carries more weight,

Grevster73 20:59 summative scores will unfortunately count more #ukedchat

RT @colport: I fear that summative assessments will remain the focus for
DanielHugill 20:59 leaders as scores are published. APP will remain the poor relative #ukedchat

@Crosbiei if it's a useful tool for teachers in the classroom then in some
sellyeve 20:59 form it'll survive - that's the acid test #ukedchat

@mberry #ukedchat Black & William (1999), Bell & Cowie (2001), Naylor &
Grevster73 20:59 Keogh and my recent doctorate to name but a few...

I know @janwebb21 is developing an IPhone app to support APP - will be

colport 20:59 even better with new iPod Touches with cameras :-) #ukedchat

Thank you for your contributions to #ukedchat - Plenty to think about, and
colport 21:00 plenty of ideas shared. A great session. Thank you

Page 25 of 28
 Last few mins of #ukedchat, so going to squeeze in a blatant plug 4 #tmhhs -
duckinwales 21:00 this Wed in Holywell all welcome http://www.teachmeet.org.uk/

RT @Grevster73: RT @DeputyHeadDunn: Until teacher's assessment carries

sellyeve 21:00 more weight, summative scores will unfortunately count more #ukedchat

RT @DeputyHeadDunn:Until teacher's assessment carries more weight,

Crosbiei 21:00 summative scores will unfortunately count more #ukedchat > crazy but true

@cleverfiend: @sellyeve < classic quote 'but if everyone could understand,

Julian3576 21:00 then where does that leave the teaching profession' #ukedchat

DeputyHeadDunn 21:00 Have enjoyed my first eve here, thanks all! #ukedchat

@DeputyHeadDunn #ukedchat there needs to be a culture change in

Grevster73 21:00 schools

It's 9:00 - Another #ukedchat draws to an end. The archive process will start
ukedchat 21:00 at 9.15. Thank you for your contributions.

RT @colport: I know @janwebb21 is developing an IPhone app to support

SkoorBttaM 21:00 APP - will be even better with new iPod Touches with cameras :-) #ukedchat
RT @duckinwales: Last few mins of #ukedchat, so going to squeeze in a
blatant plug 4 #tmhhs - this Wed in Holywell all welcome
damoward 21:01 http://www.teachmeet.org.uk/

The #ukedchat blog (summaries of previous sessions) at

ukedchat 21:01 http://ukedchat.wordpress.com/

RT @mberry AfL: the L is so, so much more important than the A #ukedchat
josepicardo 21:01 [will definitely quote you on that Miles!]

sellyeve 21:01 @iteachyear4 thanks! #ukedchat

#ukedchat Thanks all! Great stuff to think about!. APP will hopefully hang
DanielHugill 21:02 around long enough for us to try use!

The #ukedchat Facebook page is at http://on.fb.me/9k7Z1u - Click 'Like' to

ukedchat 21:02 receive updates

Page 26 of 28
 @sellyeve I agree. But isnt it currently just more paperwork for teachers to
Crosbiei 21:02 complete? #ukedchat

RT @Ideas_Factory:#ukedchat APP maths is easy-working out level is pain-

andreacarr1 21:02 try @andreacarr1 i-progress > free for a term if that helps anyone.

thanks everyone - good chat. Many thanks to colport for moderating too!
sellyeve 21:02 #ukedchat

Really looking fwd to archive -some great ideas/links tonight. Thanks folks
dailydenouement 21:02 for being ace professionals! Always useful & inspiring #ukedchat

sellyeve 21:03 @Crosbiei sure is paperwork! #ukedchat

@TomSale Ah, but the iPad version is £1.79 - I'd have to buy all staff iPads ;-
colport 21:05 ) #ukedchat

RT @DanielHugill: #ukedchat APP will hopefully hang around long enough

Julian3576 21:05 for us to use!< and develop into something useful before all change!

@Grevster73 I'd need to check the sources, but don't these indicate that
mberry 21:06 better A can/does improve L (as measured by A) #ukedchat

@DanielHugill But wheels are so much better when reinvented ;-)

Arakwai 21:06 #ukedchat

@colport sorry that I missed #ukedchat Got stuck with footy and pumping
raff31 21:08 up 3 child pram tyres...harder than it sounds!

@spookingdorf @dan_bowen TfL or tFL? Make mine a student Oyster card.

mberry 21:08 #ukedchat

ukedchat 21:12 The #ukedchat archive process has started.

RT @ChrisPadden: We made an assessment framework for the Welsh: APP
for Wales :) http://bit.ly/WelshAPP Used by 10% of Welsh schools at last
rebecca_rutt 21:12 count #ukedchat

#ukedchat I think if U find APP useful then use it It will not stp external
Orlama 21:14 assessment but cn help in informing wht U do nxt w/ yr children

Page 27 of 28
 @primarypete_ I just started using evernote on the iPad and my other
AntLak 21:20 computers and am loving it. Nice to have it all all the time #ukedchat

#ukedchat Help! Any of you in SLT/Govs in Federations? Looking at LA

scholaforis 21:23 systems/support which is good/barrier to fed develoment. DM pls. Ta

Page 28 of 28