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Ukedchat Archive 07 October 2010
Ukedchat Archive 07 October 2010
My first #ukedchat :) We're just starting to use APP for Numeracy. I'm
OhLottie 19:58 hopeful, but not sure about the best way to log evidence. Post-its?!
@sh1916 #ukedchat can I suggest that you contact @Sport_ed who is using
DrAshCasey 20:00 a lot of iPad apps in his teaching.
@OhLottie who are you assessing for? why evidence? why the obsession
cleverfiend 20:00 with banks of evidence? what happened to trusting judgements #ukedchat
didactylos 20:00 #ukedchat likely to lurk, not really my area this one
Ideas_Factory 20:01 #ukedchat Simple answer is yes APP does work-when done properly.
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If we can focus on methods people use in collecting and using Assessing
colport 20:01 Pupils Progress in Maths/English and other subjects? #ukedchat
#ukedchat I've seen schools bogged down with evidence gathering, target
cleverfiend 20:03 setting and sublevels. Does this improve learning? Convince me :)
03mghanem 20:03 what sorts of methods do different settings use for APP? #ukedchat
DrAshCasey 20:03 @Ideas_Factory isn't the case with all meaningful assessment? #ukedchat
@colport we could but that would take me out of the conversation...I will sit
DrAshCasey 20:04 back for a bit. #ukedchat
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#ukedchat We use PupilAsset.com when doing APP. It has sections to fwrite
KnikiDavies 20:04 in evidence, you can attach photos, video etc as evidence in each
AforL is about learners knowing where they are and what they need to do to
wjputt 20:04 move on. Teachers & peers can help with this. #ukedchat
Ideas_Factory 20:04 @wjputt #ukedchat 'Inside the Black Box' is great book
OhLottie 20:05 @KnikiDavies Is PupilAsset.com paid for? I'm assuming so! #ukedchat
colport 20:05 @wjputt Can you link towards Black & William work please? #ukedchat
#ukedchat If you show loads of evidence for yr 3 pupils, it shows you know
KnikiDavies 20:05 what you're looking for and you can be relied on to assess others
#ukedchat ...then I can select all and then mark chn who didnt get it. Find
KnikiDavies 20:06 APP hardest in maths, and easiest & most useful in writing
#ukedchat APP is really the only alternative to testing-in fact it is the ONLY
Ideas_Factory 20:06 alternative to testing-has anybody anything else?
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Would it take away the strain if pupils taught to link evidence to system
BryanPlumb 20:06 themselves? ie pupil photos work and uploads to APP? #ukedchat
My school has used 3 different methods of target setting in the last 3 yrs.
Crosbiei 20:06 And APP has not featured in any of them! #ukedchat
@DrAshCasey No, I was hoping to use this as a starter, then move towards
colport 20:06 other subjects when people have shared these experiences #ukedchat
@ohlottie #ukedchat I'm afraid so, but it is excellent! Shows graphs of pupil
KnikiDavies 20:07 progress that parents find really helpful, whole school data..
http://www.assessment-reform-group.org/publications.html #ukedchat
Ideas_Factory 20:07 Very very good website/assoc and brill publications
@Ideas_Factory But you still get colleagues who huff and puff. To me, APP
colport 20:08 places the professional status back into teaching #ukedchat
APP can be useful for teaching assistants who support students' learning
cleverfiend 20:08 http://fcr.me.uk/dfEVgq asking the right questions #ukedchat
Haven't used APP in secondary Maths. We test regularly and rely on teacher
tj007 20:08 judgment a lot. #ukedchat
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@Crosbiei #ukedchat But without evidence how do we know if one person's
KnikiDavies 20:09 "uses variety of connectives" looks same as someone else's?
APP for a whole class seems a huge job - and doing it for only 6 seems silly
MrKp 20:09 how do you square the circle? #ukedchat
But is APP way forwrd for assessment? It is not a requirement for ICT in
largerama 20:10 2ndary now change of govt but is it best way to assess? #ukedchat
@crosbiei #ukedchat When schools are judged by value added, and pupils
KnikiDavies 20:10 move between schools, v important to know levels sent up are reliable
RT @Ideas_Factory: http://www.assessment-reform-
group.org/publications.html #ukedchat Very very good website/assoc and
wjputt 20:10 brill publications
@colport #ukedchat Agreed-Teachers can huff & puff all they like-they need
Ideas_Factory 20:10 to have evidence to back up levels-Answers 'How do you know?'
@MrKp If you place a group of 'similar' pupils together, then you can judge
colport 20:10 those who are better or not as good as the middle #ukedchat
sampling six children doesn't seem to tally well with 'every child matters'...
sellyeve 20:10 #ukedchat
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@KnikiDavies No worries, will point the people with the money at school in
OhLottie 20:10 its direction :) #ukedchat
@KnikiDavies #ukedchat But even if levels were sent with the child, would
Crosbiei 20:11 you make your own evaluation of that child or rely on some1 elses?
@MrKp #ukedchat I do it for the whole class but only show detailed
KnikiDavies 20:11 annotated evidence for 3.
#ukedchat Some great work from colleagues on AfL for last 2 years at
wjputt 20:12 Holywell - moving learning & achievement on. #tmhhs 13-10-10 Pls come.
So many competing initiatives & requests for data reporting at 2ndary think
dailydenouement 20:12 some teachers see it as an imposition #ukedchat
@mrkp #ukedchat Assessing the 3 focus chn shows I know what I'm doing
KnikiDavies 20:12 and can be trusted when they look at results I give for other 30
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@largerama It's a hell of a lot better than purely relying on exams :o)
BryanPlumb 20:12 #ukedchat
every assessment approach has pros and cons - you need to have more than
sellyeve 20:12 one method in the toolkit #ukedchat
I do actually fear for APP, and the principles behind it, under the new
colport 20:13 government #ukedchat
sellyeve 20:13 @colport it's not foolproof - but then nothing is! #ukedchat
Used a grt approach in recent work called 'teaching experiments' where you
DrAshCasey 20:13 try to understand the students' construction of an idea #ukedchat
@Crosbiei #ukedchat point is tht value added uses levels sent up.If chld
KnikiDavies 20:13 comes to me with 3B I have to make 2 SLs regardless of what i think
Intrigued that most find APP harder with num. than lit. We're just
OhLottie 20:13 introducing it in num. + my feeling was that it'd be easier! #ukedchat
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Anyone you still doing APP and half termly/termly 'tests'? Doesn't this
SkoorBttaM 20:14 defeat the object?!? #ukedchat
#ukedchat Assessment should not just data points, but show learning taking
Julian3576 20:14 place as it happens. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzGvTELAz_k
@OhLottie #ukedchat It's easier in that it's more clearcut, harder in that
KnikiDavies 20:14 there are millions of descriptors seemingly randomly arranged!
RT @colport: I do actually fear for APP, and the principles behind it, under
Crosbiei 20:15 the new government #ukedchat
@Crosbiei @KnikiDavies Surely you start with the levels chn come with but
OhLottie 20:15 can disagree with them after your own assessment? #ukedchat
#ukedchat When do you assess? When taught? Can they do it two weeks
MrG_ICT 20:15 later?
@colport agreed - but then you can't look at any data in isolation...
sellyeve 20:16 #ukedchat
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Reception teachers have been doing this for years-assessment based on
Ideas_Factory 20:16 careful observation & recording of pupil work #ukedchat
Have consistent school designed APP for all subjects use this to assess &
gideonwilliams 20:16 monitor attainment/progress then link APP to eportfolio #ukedchat
@largerama good question. I couldn't possibly say, not being a teacher and
BryanPlumb 20:16 thus not involved in a daily basis. Thoughts anyone? #ukedchat
@Crosbiei I certainly don't always agree that. That's why you need lots of
KnikiDavies 20:16 evidence and moderation #ukedchat
@OhLottie #ukedchat When LA look at your school data, they take the
KnikiDavies 20:17 levels they came up with as base to assess your school's performance
the problem with APP is that the experts have added to it & evolved it as
sellyeve 20:17 they went along! #ukedchat
#ukedchat As a teacher I find it hard to relate to the Science APP... but know
Julian3576 20:17 APP is the best way to assess science, just who write them?
APP for reading is a tough one I find. Using a memo machine is useful but
iteachyear4 20:18 can distract the children from what is said #ukedchat
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@iteachyear4 #ukedchat Yes reading is tough I find. Esp as each level in each
KnikiDavies 20:19 AF is only 1 or 2 sentences yet covers so much!
@KnikiDavies #ukedchat How can the LA 'come-up' with levels without links
Ideas_Factory 20:19 to raiseonline etc?
Some secondary sci depts are starting to equate APP with AfL - an activity
cleverfiend 20:19 that happens once a half term/topic -that's bad surely? #ukedchat
#ukedchat I know that most of the people I with really really don't like APP
KnikiDavies 20:20 as they see it as pointless paperwork.
@OhLottie Thanks. I had a brain wave on a train from Glasgow. It's free, and
colport 20:20 always accessible for me to add #ukedchat http://bit.ly/8qORcp
APP with target setting could be real buy in for students - must be
gideonwilliams 20:20 transparent and valued #ukedchat
@KnikiDavies Are you talking about end of KS1 levels? I was talking about
OhLottie 20:20 levels from previous teacher, whatever the year group #ukedchat
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@OhLottie #ukedchat I tend 2 assume that the previous teacher in my schl
KnikiDavies 20:21 was right in their judgement as we have rigorous moderation process
@Ideas_Factory AfL should happen all the time - but when APP self
cleverfiend 20:22 assessment tasks are termly AfL tasks confusion reigns for some #ukedchat
@KnikiDavies But surely if you're using it to inform your future planning, it's
Laura_987 20:23 not pointless? #ukedchat
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gideonwilliams 20:23 Got to move away from fixed summative assessments #ukedchat
#ukedchat I think a problem is that levels etc are so high stakes. If not so
KnikiDavies 20:23 much rode on them I think APP etc could be lots more useful.
@Laura_987 #ukedchat I don't think it is pointless at all, I like it, but is hard
KnikiDavies 20:24 to convince others of that!
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@Laura_987i agree,but do think that it can seem pointless when th only
03mghanem 20:26 thing that really matters in the scheme of things are grades#ukedchat
@dan_bowen I don't fear APP, It's just huge in Primary Maths. I am trying to
colport 20:26 streamline and make the process easier for all #ukedchat
KnikiDavies 20:26 @Grevster73 #ukedchat But if it is going to replace SATS then it will be
@Laura_987 Hee! Yes I think it is really useful. #ukedchat How do you get
KnikiDavies 20:27 others to see it as useful not just another hoop?
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Would it help if you could photo work with your phone, instantly upload to
BryanPlumb 20:27 pupils e-portfolio and allow you to select APP marks? #ukedchat
colport 20:28 @DeputyHeadDunn I have tweeted a lot in #ukedchat - What did you do?
@colport #ukedchat Using APP in maths is easy-working out level using that
Ideas_Factory 20:28 daft formula is the pain-try @andreacarr1 rising stars i-progress
RT @BryanPlumb: Would it help if you could photo work with your phone,
dailydenouement 20:28 instantly upload to pupils e-portfolio & select APP marks? #ukedchat
@Ideas_Factory I'm quite familiar with what APP is and what APP isn't
cleverfiend 20:28 http://fcr.me.uk/amL2Pp - I speak only about what I see #ukedchat
Okay, new article on bee-it will be looking into APP systems and how they
BryanPlumb 20:29 can be improved to make your life as a teacher easier #ukedchat
@Colport I'm new here tonight! We integrated some of APP into our
DeputyHeadDunn 20:29 progress ladders #ukedchat
KnikiDavies 20:29 @Julian3576 #ukedchat I thought the science APP is *all* investigation?
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#ukedchat having trained schools with it they have benefited by changing
dan_bowen 20:30 schemes of work...to fit the levels better...
@Colport These are stuck inside children's books and they help assess
DeputyHeadDunn 20:30 #ukedchat
@duckinwales That is the concern, and I really cannot see things changing
colport 20:30 either #ukedchat
#ukedchat APP grids allow us to state that a childs work is 5low, secure
dan_bowen 20:30 high..5c, 5a with certainty
@colport #ukedchat We put little post its in books and review every half
Ideas_Factory 20:31 term. We have Jigsaws in books so kids colour in every time.
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RT @Ideas_Factory: @colport #ukedchat We put little post its in books and
review every half term. We have Jigsaws in books so kids colour in every
Crosbiei 20:32 time.
@colport #ukedchat Didn't I email those jigsaws to you? APP based would
Ideas_Factory 20:32 help
#ukedchat I work with consultants who have been involved in edu for years
dan_bowen 20:32 and are top of their game and they rate APP for all core subejcts
#ukedchat //by the way APP cannot be done in Excel, should not be done
dan_bowen 20:33 for everyone and is periodic..so you cant APP one piece of work
@sellyeve #ukedchat Have got for every level in writing and Maths. Also APP
Ideas_Factory 20:33 ICT for levels 1-5
#ukedchat right thats me off my soapbox but I feel passionaltely about APP
dan_bowen 20:33 and happy to help anyone understand it..
Yes, and I amended them to Elmer :-) #ukedchat Wasted a few hours playing
colport 20:33 with them!
@colport #ukedchat I thought so-that Elmer was inspired but are you using
Ideas_Factory 20:33 it?
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DeputyHeadDunn 20:33 @Colport OSTED (didn't mean to swear) loved progress ladders #ukedchat
sellyeve 20:34 @Ideas_Factory sounds great! Have you a link at all? #ukedchat
DeputyHeadDunn 20:34 @Colport Will happily share what we do with you #ukedchat
DeputyHeadDunn 20:35 @Colport...not yet, just setting blog up, but can chat/email? #ukedchat
@dan_bowen can see you're an enthusiast - but...do you think it's doable
sellyeve 20:35 for all those subjects? #ukedchat
@cleverfiend AfL should inform the kids so they can improve grades, but not
mwnm 20:35 only done with APP #ukedchat
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@colport #ukedchat I'd be interested to see how it could. We are racking
KnikiDavies 20:36 our brains trying to think of how to assess foundation subjects!
@Ideas_Factory Ah, no> The literacy team were not *ready* for APP writing
colport 20:36 - They are stuck with Ros Wilson! #ukedchat
Online converter - convert video, images, audio and documents for free
MoodleMcKean 20:37 http://bit.ly/d2pVRk #edtech #ukedchat #edchat #elearning #mlearning
@sellyeve: @dan_bowen ... do you think it's doable for all subjects?
Julian3576 20:37 <certainly especially if seen in cross curricular context #ukedchat
@colport The APP guidelines exist for foundation subjects at KS3 - new
DanielHugill 20:37 government has no intention of releasing them!! #ukedchat
DeputyHeadDunn 20:37 @KnikiDavies we use progress ladders for all our subjects #ukedchat
@primarypete_ Nice idea, but is the inability to link evidence holding this
BryanPlumb 20:38 back? #ukedchat
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DrAshCasey 20:38 @colport 140 characters on APP characteristic...pls. #ukedchat
@colport #ukedchat Yes we are, we were an IPC school and tried to use
KnikiDavies 20:40 their assessment package but it was unmanageable
@KnikiDavies mostly skills, assessed by teacher and child through work and
DeputyHeadDunn 20:40 discussion #ukedchat
@DeputyHeadDunn @colport Whats the difference between ofsted
inspectors and plastic surgeons..Plastic surgeons pluck features :0)
MrKp 20:40 #ukedchat
Lurking in #ukedchat tonight. Interesting points being made but I can't join
familysimpson 20:41 in as packing for school trip! Do I get a D-?
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colport 20:43 Does all formative assessment practice stop at the end of KS3? #ukedchat
DrAshCasey 20:44 @familysimpson for taking kids on a trip? No A+ ... good on you #ukedchat
@ChrisPadden #ukedchat How odd, i found the opposite, that I had lots at
KnikiDavies 20:44 low and secure and very few at high, due to gaps eg in punctuation
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sellyeve 20:46 @colport Bloom's Taxonomy v. useful indeed #ukedchat
Is anyone else here a little worried that AfL has come to mean APP in the
mberry 20:47 eyes of so many? #ukedchat
@colport I know in my training, for which @Grevster73 was a big part of, we
iteachyear4 20:47 did quite a lot of Blooms and it is useful starting #ukedchat
Prepared to skinned alive here, but is APP really THAT different to Ros
OhLottie 20:47 Wilson? #ukedchat
KS3 APP guidance goes down to level 3 for for foundation subjects - it's not
mberry 20:47 that difficult to convert ATs L1& L2 to APP. #ukedchat
@primarypete_ Yes, but the wi-fi really struggles with ipod/pad within
colport 20:48 school, although can always sync later #ukedchat
@OhLottie Found that APP tends to be more accurate, Ros Wilson can be a
DeputyHeadDunn 20:48 little over-generous on levels #ukedchat
#ukedchat argh new twitter is getting the better of me....cant follow back
dan_bowen 20:48 the threads...people asking about links etc..sorry...
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@sellyeve @Grevster73 U.S. colleagues seem very keen on it. I think i'd
colport 20:48 need to read more #ukedchat
@mberry #ukedchat noooooo AfL APP completly different however AfL can
dan_bowen 20:49 be used to help make APP judgements
primarypete_ 20:49 @colport good to know - will check it out bit more :) #ukedchat
@DanielHugill hmmm - thought the advice was NOT to plan from APP -
sellyeve 20:49 because it inevitably contains gaps #ukedchat
Grevster73 20:49 @mberry #ukedchat yes, but APP & AfL can work together really well
BryanPlumb 20:49 @dan_bowen In future, especially for #ukedchat, use Twitterfall.com :-)
#ukedchat sorry I've seemed to remember about debate every day then
marketspi 20:50 forget on actual Thursday. Will catch up on archive. Looks good!
Last ten minutes of #ukedchat - What works well in APP data collection (or
colport 20:50 formative assessment collection)?
@Grevster73 I love Bloom's as a structure (I'm such a geek) and find the kids
Arakwai 20:50 grasp it pretty quickly and well for peer & self ass #ukedchat
mberry 20:51 @dan_bowen the L is so, so much more important than the A #ukedchat
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Too true "@DrAshCasey: @Ideas_Factory @colport it may be 'a way' but I
artpod 20:51 am sceptical of anything that is branded as 'the way' #ukedchat" :)
@dan_bowen Had that problem last week. Try TweetDeck. Much easier!
Crosbiei 20:51 #ukedchat
@mberry I think one driver behind APP was to encourage quality AfL in the
cleverfiend 20:51 classroom but I agree many think AfL=APP #ukedchat
colport 20:52 @cleverfiend Absolutely agree. I think the CPD got confused #ukedchat
We used APP level descriptors to help chn self assess their work in Science
iteachyear4 20:53 investigators #ukedchat
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Grevster73 20:54 @mberry #ukedchat But you can't have good L without the A!
@DanielHugill having said that, I don't think you can beat having a look at
sellyeve 20:55 the NC level descriptors-all assess derives from these #ukedchat
@mberry: @dan_bowen the L is so, so much more important than the A< A
Julian3576 20:55 can enhance L, no other reason is really worth while #ukedchat
loving #ukedchat but have to go or I wont get any work done.....see you all,
dan_bowen 20:56 much love Dan x
@Grevster73 you have evidence for this? I'd be willing to concede that good
mberry 20:56 T is dependent on good A, but L can happen without T. #ukedchat
#ukedchat Issue that many face is the frequent reporting required by SLT vs.
DanielHugill 20:56 a holistic APP judgment after a longer period. How to solve?
I fear that summative assessments will remain the focus for leaders as
colport 20:57 scores are published. APP will remain the poor relative #ukedchat
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@sellyeve I find it interesting that the Nat Strat didn't write child friendly
cleverfiend 20:57 statements on purpose - how did they envision AfL? #ukedchat
RT @colport: I fear that summative assessments will remain the focus for
Crosbiei 20:58 leaders as scores are published. APP will remain the poor relative #ukedchat
@sellyeve We used the Badger descriptors which are pretty much child
iteachyear4 20:58 speak #ukedchat
@sellyeve Get in touch with @Grevster73 - he can point you in the right
iteachyear4 20:59 direction, although they are only KS3......for now? #ukedchat
@Arakwai perhaps '... one useful tool ...' but it looks like something invented
mberry 20:59 by people who don't actually teach (says he) #ukedchat
RT @colport: I fear that summative assessments will remain the focus for
DanielHugill 20:59 leaders as scores are published. APP will remain the poor relative #ukedchat
@Crosbiei if it's a useful tool for teachers in the classroom then in some
sellyeve 20:59 form it'll survive - that's the acid test #ukedchat
@mberry #ukedchat Black & William (1999), Bell & Cowie (2001), Naylor &
Grevster73 20:59 Keogh and my recent doctorate to name but a few...
Thank you for your contributions to #ukedchat - Plenty to think about, and
colport 21:00 plenty of ideas shared. A great session. Thank you
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Last few mins of #ukedchat, so going to squeeze in a blatant plug 4 #tmhhs -
duckinwales 21:00 this Wed in Holywell all welcome http://www.teachmeet.org.uk/
DeputyHeadDunn 21:00 Have enjoyed my first eve here, thanks all! #ukedchat
It's 9:00 - Another #ukedchat draws to an end. The archive process will start
ukedchat 21:00 at 9.15. Thank you for your contributions.
RT @mberry AfL: the L is so, so much more important than the A #ukedchat
josepicardo 21:01 [will definitely quote you on that Miles!]
#ukedchat Thanks all! Great stuff to think about!. APP will hopefully hang
DanielHugill 21:02 around long enough for us to try use!
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@sellyeve I agree. But isnt it currently just more paperwork for teachers to
Crosbiei 21:02 complete? #ukedchat
thanks everyone - good chat. Many thanks to colport for moderating too!
sellyeve 21:02 #ukedchat
Really looking fwd to archive -some great ideas/links tonight. Thanks folks
dailydenouement 21:02 for being ace professionals! Always useful & inspiring #ukedchat
@TomSale Ah, but the iPad version is £1.79 - I'd have to buy all staff iPads ;-
colport 21:05 ) #ukedchat
@Grevster73 I'd need to check the sources, but don't these indicate that
mberry 21:06 better A can/does improve L (as measured by A) #ukedchat
@colport sorry that I missed #ukedchat Got stuck with footy and pumping
raff31 21:08 up 3 child pram tyres...harder than it sounds!
#ukedchat I think if U find APP useful then use it It will not stp external
Orlama 21:14 assessment but cn help in informing wht U do nxt w/ yr children
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@primarypete_ I just started using evernote on the iPad and my other
AntLak 21:20 computers and am loving it. Nice to have it all all the time #ukedchat
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