Transcript of The Trial of Oj Simpson

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, MARCH 2, 1995 9:34 A.M.
DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE
APPEARANCES: (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.)
(JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)
(CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)
(PAGES 16770 THROUGH 16779, VOLUME 98A, TRANSCRIBED AND SEALED UNDER
SEPARATE COVER.)
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE
OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GOOD MORNING, COUNSEL. BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE
SIMPSON MATTER. MR. SIMPSON IS AGAIN PRESENT BEFORE THE COURT WITH HIS
COUNSEL, MR. SHAPIRO, MR. COCHRAN, MR. DOUGLAS, MR. BAILEY. THE PEOPLE ARE
REPRESENTED BY MR. DARDEN, MISS CLARK, MISS LEWIS. THE MATTER IS HERE TO
CONTINUE AND CONCLUDE THE CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION OF ROSA LOPEZ.
COUNSEL, IS THERE ANYTHING WE NEED TO PUT ON THE RECORD BEFORE WE INVITE
MISS LOPEZ TO REJOIN US? ALL RIGHT. DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S HAVE MISS LOPEZ,
PLEASE.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, WOULD YOU KINDLY EXCUSE FROM THE COURTROOM
MR. MC NALLY, IRMA AND MR. PAVELIC, IF HE IS HERE?
THE COURT: YES. ANY OTHER PERSONS WHO MAY BE CALLED TO TESTIFY
REGARDING THIS WITNESS WILL BE EXCUSED FROM THE COURTROOM.
MR. DARDEN: I'M SORRY, MR. MC KENNA.
(POTENTIAL WITNESSES EXCLUDED)
THE COURT: MISS LOPEZ, WOULD YOU PLEASE RESUME THE WITNESS STAND.
ROSA MARIA LOPEZ, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY SWORN, RESUMED THE STAND AND
TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GOOD MORNING, MISS LOPEZ.
THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, SIR.
THE COURT: YOU ARE REMINDED THAT YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH.
THE WITNESS: YES, SIR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S HAVE IT QUIET IN THE COURTROOM, PLEASE. AND MR.
COCHRAN. ALL RIGHT. GOOD MORNING, MR. COCHRAN. YOU MAY CONCLUDE YOUR
DIRECT EXAMINATION.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR. AT YOUR REQUEST, YOUR
HONOR, I AM NOW WIRED. LET ME MAKE SURE THAT SHE IS PICKING UP MY VOICE.
THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THIS WILL ENABLE ME, I UNDERSTAND, TO MOVE
AROUND AS NEEDED. THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: YES.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
BY MR. COCHRAN:
Q: GOOD MORNING, MISS LOPEZ.
A: GOOD MORNING, SIR.
Q: ARE YOU GLAD TO BE HERE TODAY?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WHY NOT?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I WOULD PREFER -- I HEARD THAT MISS CLARK SAID THAT MY LIFE
WAS BETTER HERE, BUT I WANT TO TELL HER SOMETHING.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THIS IS ALL IRRELEVANT, YOUR HONOR. IT IS
NONRESPONSIVE AND IT IS IRRELEVANT.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK, ARE YOU CONDUCTING THIS?
MR. DARDEN: IT IS IRRELEVANT, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: IT IS. IT IS NON -- IT IS NONRESPONSIVE; HOWEVER, MISS CLARK, I
WOULD APPRECIATE -- THIS IS THE THIRD TIME WE HAVE DONE THIS ON THIS
WITNESS.
MS. CLARK: I APOLOGIZE, YOUR HONOR.
MR. COCHRAN: I WILL ASK ANOTHER QUESTION.
THE COURT: PLEASE.
Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU STILL WOULD RATHER NOT BE HERE; IS THAT RIGHT,
MA'AM?
A: YES.
Q: AND ARE YOU STILL PLANNING TO LEAVE THE LOS ANGELES AREA AS SOON AS
YOU FINISH TESTIFYING?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: NOW, WHEN LAST WE ASKED YOU SOME QUESTIONS, I GUESS THAT WAS ON
TUESDAY, YOU DESCRIBED A DETECTIVE WHO CAME TO YOUR DOOR IN THE EARLY
MORNING HOURS OF JUNE 13, 1994. DO YOU RECALL THAT.
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. THAT MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE. SHE HAS GIVEN NO
DESCRIPTION.
MR. COCHRAN: SHE TALKED WITH A DETECTIVE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
MR. COCHRAN: OKAY.
Q: YOU TALKED ABOUT A DETECTIVE WHO CAME TO YOUR DOOR IN THE EARLY
MORNING HOURS OF JUNE 13; IS THAT CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU TOLD US THIS DETECTIVE WAS NAMED MARK FUHRMAN; IS THAT
CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND IF YOU WERE TO SEE A VIDEO OF THIS PARTICULAR PERSON, WOULD YOU BE
ABLE TO IDENTIFY HIM?
A: YES, SIR.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE MR. HARRIS CALL UP A
PORTION OF A VIDEO.
MR. DARDEN: I WOULD OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. TO SHOW A WITNESS OF A VIDEO OF
A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL WOULD BE UNDULY SUGGESTIVE, YOUR HONOR, AND
LEADING.
MR. COCHRAN: SHE HAS GIVEN US THE NAME, YOUR HONOR. IF SHE CAN IDENTIFY
IT, SO BE IT. IF SHE CAN'T, SO BE IT.
MR. DARDEN: IN ADDITION, IF I MIGHT, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE EXHIBITS BEFORE
THEY ARE SHOWN TO THE WITNESS.
MR. COCHRAN: HE HAS SEEN THIS.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S DISPLAY IT ON COUNSEL'S VIDEO ONLY.
MR. COCHRAN: NOT UP ON THE WITNESS' MONITOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND
DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. COCHRAN: COUNSEL HAS SEEN THIS DURING THE OPENING STATEMENT.
MR. DARDEN: TO SHOW THE WITNESS A SINGLE PHOTOGRAPH, YOUR HONOR, IS
UNDULY SUGGESTIVE. IN ADDITION, THERE IS A NAME FLASHING DIRECTLY ACROSS
THE INDIVIDUAL'S CHEST THERE.
MR. COCHRAN: I CAN SHOW THE FIRST PART WITHOUT THE NAME, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: THE PERSON IS SEATED AT THE WITNESS STAND WITH A MICROPHONE,
JUST LIKE THIS ONE IS. IT IS SO SUGGESTIVE, IT IS SUGGESTIBLE YOUR HONOR.
MR. COCHRAN: I CAN ASK A COUPLE OF FOUNDATIONAL QUESTIONS, YOUR
HONOR.
THE COURT: PLEASE.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q: AFTER THIS DETECTIVE, WHOM YOU SAID WAS MARK FUHRMAN, CAME TO YOUR
RESIDENCE, DID YOU EVER HAVE OCCASION TO SEE THAT INDIVIDUAL IN COURT ON
TELEVISION AT ANY TIME AFTER JUNE 13, 1994?
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS LEADING.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU EVER -- YOUR HONOR, MAY I ASK THIS QUESTION? DID
YOU EVER SEE THIS PERSON ON TELEVISION AT ANY TIME?
THE COURT: YES.
Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: AND WHEN WAS THAT?
A: WHEN HE CAME TO TESTIFY.
Q: AND HOW DID YOU SEE HIM WHEN HE CAME TO TESTIFY?
A: THE SAME WAY, LIKE WHEN I SAW HIM AT THE DOOR.
Q: AND WAS IT THE SAME PERSON?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU SAW THIS ON TELEVISION?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD RECOGNIZE THIS PERSON AGAIN IF YOU SAW A
VIDEO OF THAT PERSON?
A: YES, SIR.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD ASK LEAVE TO SHOW THE VIDEO, AT LEAST
THE FIRST PART OF IT.
THE COURT: HAVE YOU SHOWN THIS TO HER BEFORE?
MR. COCHRAN: NO, I HAVE NOT SHOWN IT TO HER BEFORE.
MR. DARDEN: SAME OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. GOES TO THE WEIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU STOP IT BEFORE THERE IS ANY NAMES COMING ACROSS
THE SCREEN?
THE COURT: WELL, CAN WE JUST PLAY IT -- MR. HARRIS, AND JUST FREEZE IT AT THAT
POINT AND THEN PUT IT ON THE SCREEN. ALL RIGHT.
MR. COCHRAN: FREEZE THAT. CAN YOU FREEZE THAT?
MR. DARDEN: IT IS STILL ON THE SCREEN. I WOULD OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. YOU
SHOULD PRECLUDE COUNSEL FROM ASKING THE WITNESS ANY FURTHER
QUESTIONS REGARDING THIS VIDEO.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. OVERRULED. CAN WE FREEZE THAT?
MR. DARDEN: SHE HAS ALREADY SEEN IT ALL.
MR. COCHRAN: HAVE YOU FROZEN THAT?
Q: NOW, YOU HAVEN'T LOOKED AT YOUR MONITOR YET, HAVE YOU?
A: NO.
Q: OKAY. CAN YOU LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR NOW?
A: YES.
Q: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PERSON IN THAT -- DEPICTED IN THAT
PHOTOGRAPH THERE, MA'AM?
A: YES.
Q: AND WHO IS THAT PERSON?
A: MARK FUHRMAN.
Q: AND IS THAT -- WHO IS THAT MAN IN RELATION TO -- IS THAT THE SAME MAN YOU
SAW ON JUNE 13, 1994?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND IS THAT THE INDIVIDUAL YOU HAD THE CONVERSATION WITH THAT
MORNING?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: IS THAT THE SAME PERSON WHO PROMISED YOU THAT LAPD OFFICERS WOULD
COME BACK AND TALK TO YOU?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, "PROMISED."
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE IF WE COULD MARK THIS -- I WOULD
LIKE TO HAVE THAT PRINTED AND MARKED THIS AS DEFENDANT'S NEXT IN ORDER, IF
THE COURT PLEASES.
THE COURT: YES.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR --
THE COURT: 1046.
MR. DARDEN: WOULD THE COURT REQUIRE MR. COCHRAN TO MARK THE ENTIRE
VIDEO FOR PURPOSES OF THIS? THE WITNESS DID SEE THE ENTIRE VIDEO.
MR. COCHRAN: NOT THE ENTIRE --
MR. DARDEN: SHE SAW MR. FUHRMAN'S NAME.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. HARRIS, YOU WILL MAKE THAT AVAILABLE TO US.
MR. DARDEN: IF IT IS NOT GOING TO BE MARKED BY MR. COCHRAN, I WOULD LIKE
TO MARK IT PEOPLE'S NEXT NOT.
MR. COCHRAN: I HAVE NO PROBLEM. 1046 IS THE VIDEO AND 1046-A WILL BE THE
STILL FROM THE VIDEO.
(DEFT'S 1046 FOR ID = VIDEO OF MARK FUHRMAN) (DEFT'S 1046-A FOR ID = PRINT OF
VIDEO OF M. FUHRMAN)
MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU PRINT OUT THE STILL?
MR. HARRIS: YES.
THE COURT: PROCEED.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR.
Q: NOW, YOU MENTIONED AT SOME POINT, MISS LOPEZ, THAT YOU KNEW
SOMETHING ABOUT THE INSIDE OF MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE. DO YOU RECALL THAT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND WOULD YOU TELL THE COURT WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAD EVER BEEN
INSIDE OF THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE AT ROCKINGHAM?
A: YES, YOUR HONOR.
Q: AND WHAT WAS THE OCCASION -- OCCASION OR OCCASIONS THAT YOU WENT
INSIDE THAT RESIDENCE?
A: BECAUSE MICHELLE WOULD INVITE ME TO COME OVER FOR TEA WHEN WE WERE
ALONE.
Q: AND WHO WAS MICHELLE?
A: SHE WAS MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSEKEEPER.
Q: AND WHEN YOU -- ON THE OCCASIONS WHEN YOU GO FOR TEA, WAS MR.
SIMPSON EVER AT HOME DURING THOSE TIMES?
A: NO.
Q: ALL RIGHT. DID YOU EVER HAVE ANY OTHER OCCASION TO INTERACT WITH
MICHELLE OR DO ANYTHING AT THE SIMPSON HOME?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND TELL US ABOUT THAT, IF YOU WILL.
A: MICHELLE WASN'T FEELING -- ONE DAY SHE CALLED ME ON THE PHONE, THAT SHE
DIDN'T FEEL VERY WELL AND SHE WANTED ME TO DO HER THE FAVOR TO MAKE MR.
SIMPSON'S BED.
Q: AND DO YOU KNOW WHEN THAT WAS?
A: NO, I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q: ON HOW MANY OCCASIONS DID IT HAPPEN THAT YOU HELPED HER OUT BY
MAKING MR. SIMPSON'S BED?
A: ONE TIME.
Q: AND WAS HE HOME ON THAT OCCASION?
A: NO.
Q: AND THAT WAS THE ONLY TIME?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: NOW, ON TUESDAY YOU DESCRIBED FOR US THAT AFTER TEN O'CLOCK YOU CAME
OUT WITH THE DOG AND WALKED THE DOG IN THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE. DO YOU
RECALL THAT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND WHEN YOU WERE UP IN THE FRONT OF THE SALINGER'S HOME ON
ROCKINGHAM WITH THE DOG WERE YOU ABLE, FROM THE PLACE YOU WERE
WALKING THE DOG, ABLE TO SEE THE BRONCO?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WITH REGARD TO THIS DOG, IS THE DOG -- IS THAT A YOUNG DOG OR AN OLD DOG
OR WHAT ABOUT THAT DOG?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER. I ASKED MR. SALINGER THE AGE OF THE DOG AND I THINK HE
SAID SOMETHING LIKE HE IS 34, 39 YEARS OLD, I DON'T REMEMBER, SOMETHING LIKE
THAT. (IN ENGLISH) SEVEN YEARS SOMETHING, I DON'T KNOW.
THE INTERPRETER: SEVEN YEARS, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I DON'T KNOW.
Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. ONE OF THE REASONS I ASKED YOU THAT WAS YOU
SAID SOMETHING ABOUT THE DOG BIT HIMSELF OR SCRATCHED HIMSELF.
MR. DARDEN: IS THAT A QUESTION?
MR. COCHRAN: IF I CAN FINISH.
Q: YOU MENTIONED THAT THE DOG HAD SOME KIND OF A COLLAR ON BECAUSE OF
SOME PROPENSITY OR SOME INCLINATION TO BITE OR SCRATCH ITSELF.
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. IS THAT A QUESTION?
MR. COCHRAN: YES.
THE COURT: YES. SHE CAN SAY YES OR NO. IT IS ASKING FOR AN AFFIRMATION OF
THAT. ALSO, WE HAVE HEARD TESTIMONY ABOUT IT ALREADY?
THE WITNESS: YES.
Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, BACK IN JUNE OF 1994 DID YOU HAVE A FRIEND BY THE
NAME OF SYLVIA?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND AT THAT TIME DID YOU KNOW SYLVIA'S LAST NAME?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU SEE SYLVIA IN COURT HERE I GUESS ON TUESDAY AFTERNOON?
A: YES.
Q: IS THAT THE SAME SYLVIA THAT YOU KNEW BACK IN JUNE OF 1994?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WAS SYLVIA A FRIEND OF YOURS IN JUNE OF 1994?
A: YES, SIR.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, EXCUSE ME, BUT I THOUGHT MR. COCHRAN WAS NOT
ALLOWED TO GO INTO THIS AREA ON DIRECT.
MR. COCHRAN: I THOUGHT THE COURT HAD INDICATED -- MAY WE APPROACH?
THE COURT: YES, PLEASE, WITH THE COURT REPORTER.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)
THE COURT: WE ARE OVER AT THE SIDE BAR. AND MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT
BECAUSE OF THE LATE DISCLOSURE OF SYLVIA THAT YOU WERE PRECLUDED FROM
GOING INTO HER UNLESS AND UNTIL THE PROSECUTION DECIDES TO GO INTO IT.
MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. ALL RIGHT.
MR. DARDEN: THERE IS A MOTION TO STRIKE THE LAST TWO QUESTIONS AND
ANSWERS.
MR. COCHRAN: JUST ASKED IF SHE KNEW HER, A FRIEND. I CERTAINLY WILL ABIDE
BY THAT. I THOUGHT YOU SAID THAT --
THE COURT: BUT THEN IF THEY MENTION IT ON CROSS-EXAMINATION, THEN
OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN GO ON REDIRECT.
MR. COCHRAN: WHILE WE ARE UP HERE --
MR. DARDEN: MOTION TO STRIKE THE LAST TWO QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
RELATIVE TO SYLVIA.
MR. COCHRAN: I THINK THAT I HAVE NOT GONE INTO IT. I JUST ASKED IF SHE KNEW
HER.
THE COURT: WELL, YES AND NO, BUT I MEAN, YOU DON'T WANT THAT IN THE
RECORD, THAT SHE KNOWS HER AND THAT IS THE PERSON?
MR. DARDEN: I WOULD LIKE TO DO IT MY WAY.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE MOTION IS GRANTED. AS A MATTER OF PRACTICALITY,
IF YOU WANT TO ASK THE SAME QUESTIONS LATER, IT JUST SEEMS SILLY.
MR. COCHRAN: ANOTHER QUESTION IS WHILE WE ARE UP HERE --
MR. DARDEN: WHAT ABOUT THIS THING, BY THE WAY, (INDICATING)?
THE COURT: NO. WHOEVER QUESTIONS THE WITNESS HAS TO WEAR THAT BECAUSE
WHEN YOU MOVE AROUND WE DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO --
MR. DARDEN: I GUESS MY QUESTION IS ARE THEY LISTENING TO THE SIDE BAR?
THE COURT: NO. SIDE BAR SHOULD BE TURNED OFF.
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, DO YOU WANT TO CHECK, JUDGE?
THE COURT: LET ME JUST CHECK WITH THE SOUND PERSON.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)
THE COURT: SOUND PERSON?
MS. PIETZ: YES.
THE COURT: LAVALIER MIKE IS TURNED OFF?
MS. PIETZ: THAT'S CORRECT.
MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. THE QUESTION IS, SO THAT I'M CLEAR ON THE COURT'S
RULING WITH REGARD TO THE TAPE THAT WAS TURNED OVER, AM I ALLOWED TO GO
INTO THIS ON DIRECT?
MR. DARDEN: THE TAPE AND THE STATEMENT THAT ARE TURNED OVER LATE, SO --
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO LET US KNOW ABOUT SCOPE.
YOU NEVER MADE A RULING REGARDING THAT.
THE COURT: WELL, NO, YOU CAN'T GO INTO THE TAPE OR THE STATEMENT AT THIS
POINT, BUT I SUSPECT WE WILL SEE IT ON REDIRECT.
MR. COCHRAN: OKAY.
MS. CLARK: SO IS --
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)
MR. COCHRAN: I WANT TO ASK SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW THE TAPE WAS
DONE. IS THAT ALL RIGHT OR SHALL I JUST WAIT?
THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU WAIT. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MR. COCHRAN, YOU MAY
CONTINUE.
Q: NOW, MISS LOPEZ, HAVE YOU BEEN PROMISED ANYTHING AT ALL OF A MONETARY
NATURE FOR YOUR TESTIMONY HERE?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: HAVE YOU EVER -- HAVE YOU RECEIVED ANYTHING FROM ANY PERSON FOR YOUR
TESTIMONY HERE AND ON LAST TUESDAY?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: HAVE YOU RECEIVED, HOWEVER, SOME FUNDS IN THE MAIL AND THROUGH
WESTERN UNION FROM OTHER PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES SINCE
YOU TESTIFIED LAST FRIDAY?
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT.
Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: HAVE YOU ALSO RECEIVED SOME FUNDS AND SOME HELP
FROM YOUR LAWYER, MR. JONES, AND MISS HAMBURGER?
THE INTERPRETER: I'M SORRY, MR. COCHRAN, COULD YOU REPEAT THAT QUESTION,
PLEASE?
Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: FROM MR. CARL JONES AND FROM MISS MAYA HAMBURGER?
A: SHE HAS PURCHASED MY CLOTHES.
Q: HAVE YOU RECEIVED ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN THAT?
A: FLOWERS.
Q: AND WHO DID YOU GET THE FLOWERS FROM?
A: MANY PEOPLE. I DON'T REMEMBER RIGHT NOW.
Q: THEY WERE NOT FROM YOUR LAWYERS; IS THAT RIGHT?
A: NO, NO.
MR. COCHRAN: VERY WELL. I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER AT THIS POINT, YOUR
HONOR. THANK YOU.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, MR. COCHRAN.
THE WITNESS: THANK YOU, SIR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. DARDEN.
MR. DARDEN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. DARDEN:
Q: GOOD MORNING, MISS LOPEZ.
A: GOOD MORNING, SIR.
Q: DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT TODAY, JUST AS YOU WERE LAST FRIDAY, YOU ARE
UNDER OATH?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THAT. SHE KNOWS THAT.
ARGUMENTATIVE.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. PROCEED.
THE WITNESS: YES.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT OATH, RIGHT?
MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED. JUST ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE WITNESS: YES.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND YOU UNDERSTOOD IT LAST FRIDAY WHEN YOU TESTIFIED?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU UNDERSTOOD THAT OATH ON MONDAY WHEN YOU TESTIFIED?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TRUTH AND A LIE,
CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. WHEN YOU TOLD US LAST FRIDAY THAT YOU HADN'T FILLED OUT YOUR
UNEMPLOYMENT FORMS, THAT WASN'T TRUE, WAS IT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. SHE
SAID SHE HADN'T FILLED THEM OUT AT THAT TIME. I THOUGHT IT HAD TO DO WITH
VILLAPANDO.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, MR. COCHRAN IS COACHING THIS WITNESS FROM
COUNSEL TABLE.
MR. COCHRAN: I AM NOT. MAY WE APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: OVERRULED. THANK YOU. PROCEED.
THE INTERPRETER: MAY THE QUESTION BE REPEATED, PLEASE?
THE COURT: YOU TOLD US LAST FRIDAY YOU HADN'T FILLED OUT THE
UNEMPLOYMENT FORMS.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: THAT WAS A LIE, CORRECT?
A: NO.
Q: YOU HAD FILLED OUT YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT FORMS, HADN'T YOU?
A: I WAS REFERRING TO THE APPLICATION THAT IS -- THAT ONE IS GIVEN FOR ONE TO
TAKE IT BACK.
Q: OKAY. YOU NEVER APPLIED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. YOU TOLD US LAST WEEK THAT YOU WEREN'T TURNING IN YOUR FORMS
FOR UNEMPLOYMENT BECAUSE YOU WERE LEAVING THE COUNTRY, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: BUT IN FACT YOU HAD TURNED IN YOUR FORMS, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I ASK FOR A TIME ON THAT AS TO WHEN, AT WHAT
POINT IT BECOMES RELEVANT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: CORRECT?
A: NO, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND YOU.
Q: WELL --
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I SEE THIS, YOUR HONOR?
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: HAVE YOU FILED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU FILED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT ON WHAT, FEBRUARY 15TH, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: YOU FILED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT KNOWING THAT YOU WERE GOING TO LEAVE
THE COUNTRY FOR SEVERAL MONTHS, CORRECT?
A: IF I WAS GIVEN UNEMPLOYMENT, SIR, THERE WAS NO REASON FOR ME TO LEAVE
THE COUNTRY.
Q: ARE YOU AWARE THAT YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE HEARING WAS
SCHEDULED FOR YESTERDAY, MISS LOPEZ?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER BECAUSE I DON'T CARRY THE FORMS WITH ME.
Q: DID YOU ATTEND THE HEARING YESTERDAY?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: SO IF I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY THEN, IF YOU GET UNEMPLOYMENT
INSURANCE YOU WON'T LEAVE THE COUNTRY; IS THAT RIGHT?
MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS NOT WHAT SHE SAID, YOUR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: I HAVE THOUGHT OF LEAVING RIGHT AWAY WHEN I AM OUT OF HERE,
YOU KNOW.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THOSE ITEMS FOR COUNSEL?
MR. DARDEN: NO, YOUR HONOR. I ONLY HAVE THE ORIGINAL.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. CAN I HAVE MR. TYLER BACK THERE PERHAPS.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: AND MR. DARDEN, IF YOU WOULD, FOR THE CLARITY OF THE AUDIO
RECORDING, EITHER STAY AT THE MIKE OR USE ONE OF THE WIRELESS
MICROPHONES, PLEASE. THE AUDIO IS A LITTLE ON THE LIGHT SIDE WHEN YOU
MOVE AWAY FROM THE PODIUM, JUST FOR THE CLARITY OF THE RECORD.
MR. DARDEN: MAY I WAIT?
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, IS MR. COCHRAN WEARING MY MICROPHONE?
THE COURT: I BELIEVE HE IS.
MR. COCHRAN: I DON'T KNOW IF HE HAS HIS NAME ON IT, YOUR HONOR, BUT I WILL
BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO TAKE THE MICROPHONE OFF THAT WAS GIVEN TO ME
BACK THERE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I THINK THIS IS A LOAN FROM CHANNEL 4.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: MR. SHULMAN.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: IT IS NOT OFTEN THE CAMERA PEOPLE GET ON CAMERA.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHILE WE WAIT, MISS LOPEZ, WHEN YOU TOLD US LAST WEEK
THAT YOU HADN'T FILLED OUT YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT FORMS --
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. IT IS NOT
CLEAR AND IT IS NOT A FAIR QUESTION BECAUSE THE QUESTION WAS ASKED -- LET
ME JUST SAY THIS -- WAS ASKED IN CONNECTION WITH MISS VILLAPANDO WHEN
SHE WAS THERE WITH MISS VILLAPANDO, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU CAN CLARIFY THAT ON REDIRECT OR MR. DARDEN
CAN ASK SOME ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS AS TO WHEN AND WHERE.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD OBJECT TO MR. COCHRAN MAKING
OBJECTIONS AS IF TO SUGGEST TO THE WITNESS WHAT THE RESPONSE OUGHT TO BE
IN THE SITUATION. WE ALL WENT TO LAW SCHOOL. WE ALL KNOW HOW TO MAKE
LEGAL OBJECTIONS.
MR. DARDEN: AND I WOULD ASK THE COURT TO REQUIRE MR. COCHRAN TO MAKE
LEGAL OBJECTIONS AS OPPOSED TO SPEECHES.
THE COURT: THANK YOU. I THINK IT IS WELL TAKEN ON BOTH SIDES. THANK YOU.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU TOLD US THAT YOU HAD NOT FILLED OUT THE
UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FORMS, YOU WANTED US TO THINK THAT YOU HADN'T
APPLIED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: IT IS IRRELEVANT WHAT HE WANTS. I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT
QUESTION AS ARGUMENTATIVE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID YOU WANT US TO THINK THAT YOU HAD NOT APPLIED FOR
UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT. IT IS VAGUE AND ARGUMENTATIVE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU TESTIFIED LAST WEEK --
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.
THE COURT: IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.
THE COURT: YES, IT IS.
MR. DARDEN: THIS IS CROSS-EXAMINATION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, THE QUESTION, IN ITS FORM.
MR. COCHRAN: ALSO ARGUMENTATIVE.
MR. DARDEN: STATE OF MIND IS IRRELEVANT?
THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU REPHRASE THE QUESTION. THE WAY IT IS PHRASED IS
ARGUMENTATIVE, "YOU WANTED US TO THINK THAT." WAS YOUR STATE OF MIND X,
THAT YOU WANTED US TO BELIEVE.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. I OBJECT.
MR. DARDEN: ASKING QUESTIONS --
MR. COCHRAN: HE SAID HE WENT TO LAW SCHOOL, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: ASKING QUESTIONS WITH AN INTERPRETER IS AN ART, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: IT IS.
MR. DARDEN: YES, IT IS.
THE COURT: PROCEED.
MR. DARDEN: THANK YOU.
Q: WHY DID YOU TELL US THAT YOU HADN'T FILLED OUT THOSE FORMS WHEN IN
FACT YOU KNEW THAT YOU HAD FILLED OUT UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FORMS?
A: I WAS REFERRING TO THE APPLICATION THAT ONE IS GIVEN TO TAKE HOME.
Q: DID YOU FILL OUT AN APPLICATION AT THE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE OFFICE?
A: YES.
Q: DID YOU INDICATE ON THAT APPLICATION THAT YOU HAD SUDDENLY BECOME
UNEMPLOYED?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT I SAID, YES.
Q: DID YOU CHECK A BOX ON THAT APPLICATION INDICATING THAT YOU WANTED
UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE PAYMENTS?
A: YES.
Q: AND DID YOU INDICATE ON THE APPLICATION THAT YOU HAD BEEN TERMINATED
FROM THE SALINGER'S HOME?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q: WELL, YOU FILLED OUT THOSE FORMS AND FILED THEM ON FEBRUARY 15TH,
CORRECT?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT DAY IT WAS. (BRIEF PAUSE.)
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: HOW MUCH WERE YOU EXPECTING TO RECEIVE IN
UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE?
A: I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH -- I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THEY WILL GIVE ME
WHENEVER I GO THERE.
Q: LAST WEEK YOU TOLD US THAT AFTER YOU LEFT THE SALINGER'S YOU MOVED IN
WITH YOUR DAUGHTER?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU WERE LIVING THERE ON FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 17TH, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: WHEN YOU FILLED OUT YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE APPLICATION YOU
DID NOT LIST YOUR DAUGHTER'S ADDRESS ON THE APPLICATION, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: YOU DID NOT LIST THE SALINGER'S RESIDENCE AS YOUR OWN RESIDENCE,
CORRECT?
THE INTERPRETER: NOT --
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: ON YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FORM YOU DID NOT
INDICATE THAT YOU LIVED AT THE SALINGER HOME?
A: I DON'T LIVE WITH THE SALINGERS.
Q: OKAY. WELL, YOU WERE LIVING WITH YOUR DAUGHTER ON FEBRUARY 15TH,
RIGHT?
A: YES.
Q: WHOSE ADDRESS IS THIS ON YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE APPLICATION?
MR. COCHRAN: ASK COUNSEL TO SHOW HER THE ADDRESS, YOUR HONOR. ASK
COUNSEL TO SHOW HER THE ADDRESS; NOT TO SAY IT OUT LOUD.
THE COURT: YES, PLEASE.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, WHAT IS PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER?
THE COURT: MRS. ROBERTSON, PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER?
THE CLERK: 87.
THE COURT: 87. DO YOU WANT THIS WHOLE PACKET?
MR. DARDEN: YES, THE ENTIRE APPLICATION, YOUR HONOR, MAY IT BE MARKED
COLLECTIVELY AS PEOPLE'S 87?
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 87. THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
MR. DARDEN: I'M GOING TO PLACE A SMALL "87" IN THE UPPER RIGHT-HAND
CORNER OF THE FIRST PAGE OF THE DOCUMENT.
(PEO'S 87 FOR ID = UNEMPLOYMENT INS. APPLICATION)
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, SHOWING WHAT YOU HAS BEEN MARKED AS
PEOPLE'S 87, DO YOU SEE LINE 2, BOX 6 WHERE IT ASKS FOR YOUR ADDRESS?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. READ THAT ADDRESS.
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, NO, YOUR HONOR. I ASK THAT SHE NOT HAVE TO READ THAT
ADDRESS, YOUR HONOR. SHE CAN READ THE ADDRESS TO HERSELF YOU MEAN?
THE COURT: IT IS NOT NECESSARY AT THIS POINT.
MR. COCHRAN: NOT --
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: READ THE ADDRESS TO YOURSELF.
A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
Q: THAT IS NOT YOUR DAUGHTER'S ADDRESS, IS IT?
A: NO, NO.
Q: THAT IS NOT THE SALINGER'S ADDRESS, IS IT?
A: NO.
Q: SO YOU WERE LIVING SOMEWHERE ELSE THEN?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WHOSE ADDRESS IS THAT?
A: IT IS MY SON'S ADDRESS, SIR.
Q: YOU WEREN'T LIVING WITH YOUR SON, WERE YOU?
A: NO.
Q: SO WHEN YOU FILLED OUT THE FORM YOU PUT FALSE INFORMATION ON THE
FORM?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT. THAT IS HER SON'S
ADDRESS. SHE MAY GET HER MAIL THERE. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.
MR. COCHRAN: FALSE INFORMATION?
THE WITNESS: IT IS NOT FALSE, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: THAT IS NOT YOUR ADDRESS, IS IT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. THE FORM ASKED YOU TO WRITE, QUOTE, YOUR ADDRESS, UNQUOTE,
CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: BUT YOU WROTE YOUR SON'S ADDRESS INSTEAD, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: SO WERE YOU GOING TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY AND STILL GET UNEMPLOYMENT
INSURANCE WHILE YOU WERE OUT OF THE COUNTRY?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: ARE YOU AWARE THAT ON THAT FORM AND IN BOLD PRINT -- AND IN BOLD PRINT,
THAT IT INDICATES THAT IT IS A VIOLATION OF THE LAW TO MAKE FALSE STATEMENTS
ON THAT FORM?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: I DIDN'T READ IT, SIR, WHATEVER IS THERE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU DIDN'T READ IT?
A: NO.
Q: WELL, IT HAS A BOX THAT SAYS "PRINT YOUR FIRST NAME," CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU PRINTED YOUR FIRST NAME IN THAT SAME BOX, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND IT HAS A LINE THAT INDICATES WHERE THE CLAIMANT SHOULD SIGN,
CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU SIGNED ON THAT LINE, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU ARE THE PERSON CLAIMING UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: SO YOU DID READ THE FORM?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. THAT DOESN'T FOLLOW, YOUR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: OH, A LITTLE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, THE BOX HAS -- STRIKE THAT. THE DOCUMENT HAS
SEVERAL QUESTIONS LISTED ON THE FACE OF IT, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: AND TO THE RIGHT OF EACH OF THOSE QUESTIONS THERE ARE BOXES TO BE
CHECKED "YES" AND "NO," CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU CHECKED THE APPROPRIATE BOXES, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. SO YOU READ THE WHOLE FORM, RIGHT?
A: WELL, WHAT I UNDERSTAND.
Q: IS THAT YES?
A: (IN ENGLISH) YES.
Q: YOU DO RECALL THAT YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH, RIGHT?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THAT. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR
HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. BUT I THINK WE HAVE EXHAUSTED THAT LINE OF
QUESTIONS.
THE WITNESS: YES.
MR. DARDEN: NOW -- YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK THE WITNESSES ABOUT
SOME OF THE INCONSISTENCIES IN HER TESTIMONY LAST WEEK.
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT, TELLING US WHAT HE WANTS TO
ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT.
THE COURT: GO AHEAD AND ASK THE QUESTION. WE WILL SEE IF THERE IS AN
OBJECTION.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS A CONCLUSION ON HIS PART.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: LAST WEEK WHEN YOU TESTIFIED --
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, MAY WE APPROACH ON THAT JUST FOR A MOMENT,
PLEASE?
MR. COCHRAN: I HAD ASKED THE COURT EARLIER ABOUT THAT.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU TOLD US THAT YOU MADE RESERVATIONS TO LEAVE THE
COUNTRY THAT MORNING WHEN IN FACT YOU HAD NOT, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. THAT WAS A LIE, CORRECT?
A: I DIDN'T REMEMBER THAT I HAD MADE RESERVATIONS PREVIOUSLY.
Q: YOU TOLD US THAT YOU HAD MADE RESERVATIONS LAST FRIDAY MORNING,
CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: BUT YOU HAD NOT, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU KNEW THAT, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: AND YOU LIED?
A: NO.
Q: WELL, WHAT DO YOU CALL IT?
A: BECAUSE ONE DOESN'T NEED TO MAKE RESERVATIONS TO GO AROUND THIS TIME.
I GO WITH MY MONEY, I BUY THE TICKET AND THEY GIVE IT TO ME FOR THE EVENING.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: NOT ONLY DID YOU NOT MAKE RESERVATIONS LAST FRIDAY
MORNING, BUT YOU DIDN'T ADMIT THAT FACT UNTIL I CONFRONTED YOU WITH
PROOF --
MR. COCHRAN: THIS QUESTION IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: -- THAT YOU HAD NOT MADE THE RESERVATION?
MR. COCHRAN: ARGUMENTATIVE.
THE INTERPRETER: YES.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: NOW, YOU DO UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ARE STILL HERE TODAY,
CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THAT, YOUR HONOR. I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT.
Q: WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY MR. PAVELIC?
A: OH, I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.
Q: WELL, DID YOU WRITE THE DATE ON A CALENDAR?
A: NO, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN WRITING DATES.
Q: WELL, DID SOMETHING ELSE HAPPEN THAT SAME DAY, SOMETHING THAT YOU
REFLECT ON AND WHICH MIGHT HELP YOU RECALL THE DATE?
A: NO.
Q: HOW MANY TIMES WERE YOU INTERVIEWED BY MR. PAVELIC?
Q: WAS IT MORE THAN FIVE TIMES?
Q: WELL, GIVE US AN APPROXIMATE NUMBER?
MR. COCHRAN: SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T REMEMBER, YOUR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: MAYBE TWO -- MAYBE TWO TIMES OR -- I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. MAYBE TWO, MAYBE MORE?
A: NO, NO MORE.
Q: SO IT IS TWO THEN?
A: I BELIEVE.
Q: OKAY. WELL, THE FIRST TIME YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY MR. PAVELIC, WHERE
DID THAT INTERVIEW TAKE PLACE?
A: (IN ENGLISH) AT MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE.
THE INTERPRETER: AT MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AT MR. O.J. SIMPSON'S OFFICE?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND WAS THAT THE WEEK AFTER THE MURDERS OCCURRED?
Q: WELL, DID SOMEONE DRIVE YOU TO MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WHO DROVE YOU THERE?
A: THE GENTLEMAN'S SECRETARY.
Q: MR. SIMPSON'S SECRETARY?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: THAT WILL BE CATHY RANDA?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: DID SHE PICK YOU UP SOMEWHERE FIRST?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WHERE WERE YOU WHEN SHE PICKED YOU UP?
A: AT CLIFFORD, ON CLIFFORD STREET.
Q: OKAY. AND WHAT IS ON CLIFFORD STREET?
A: THE STREET IS THERE.
Q: OKAY. SO YOU MET HER ON THE STREET; IS THAT CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU WAITED AT THE CORNER?
A: NOT AT THE CORNER, SIR; IN MY CAR.
Q: SO YOU SAT IN YOUR CAR AND WAITED FOR HER TO ARRIVE TO PICK YOU UP?
A: SHE WAS ALREADY WAITING FOR ME, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO MEET HER ON THE STREET?
A: I DON'T KNOW.
Q: WELL, DID YOU ASK HER TO MEET YOU ON THE STREET?
Q: WELL, DID SHE ASK YOU TO MEET HER ON THE STREET?
A: IT IS JUST THAT I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.
Q: WELL, THE TWO OF YOU MET ON THE STREET SO THAT NO ONE WOULD KNOW
YOU WERE MEETING, CORRECT?
A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR.
Q: WELL, WERE YOU TRYING TO KEEP THE FACT OF THIS MEETING A SECRET?
Q: WELL, YOU AGREED TO MEET HER ON THE STREET, DIDN'T YOU?
A: YES.
Q: WHY?
A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
Q: WHY THERE?
A: BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I WAS TOLD AND THAT IS WHAT I DID.
Q: WELL, WHO TOLD YOU TO MEET HER THERE?
A: CATHY.
Q: DID MICHELLE TELL YOU TO MEET HER THERE?
A: NO.
Q: WELL, YOU COULD HAVE MET HER AT THE SALINGER'S, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. I'M SURE SHE COULD HAVE.
THE WITNESS: YES.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: THEY COULD HAVE PICKED YOU UP IN FRONT OF THE
SALINGER'S, CORRECT?
A: YES.
MR. DARDEN: MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT?
THE INTERPRETER: MAY WE, YOUR HONOR?
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE INTERPRETERS.)
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WERE YOU ASKED TO PARK YOUR CAR IN FRONT OF A SPECIFIC
ADDRESS OR RESIDENCE?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WHAT DID CATHY RANDA -- STRIKE THAT. HAD YOU SPOKEN TO CATHY
RANDA IN PERSON PRIOR TO THAT DAY?
A: BY PHONE, SIR.
Q: OKAY. SO THE TWO OF YOU HAD NEVER MET, CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. SO YOU CALLED HER FIRST OR DID SHE CALL YOU FIRST?
A: SHE CALLED ME.
Q: DO YOU RECALL WHERE SPECIFICALLY IT WAS THAT YOU PARKED YOUR CAR THAT
DAY?
A: NO.
Q: AND WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU MET CATHY RANDA THAT DAY?
Q: WAS IT IN THE MORNING?
Q: WAS IT IN THE AFTERNOON?
MR. COCHRAN: SHE SAID SHE DOESN'T REMEMBER, YOUR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DO YOU RECALL IF IT WAS AFTER DARK?
A: NO, SIR.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, WOULD YOU KINDLY INSTRUCT MR. COCHRAN TO NOT
FEED THIS WITNESS THE ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS RIDICULOUS. I AM SITTING OVER HERE
MINDING MY OWN BUSINESS. THAT IS RIDICULOUS, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: I DIDN'T NOTICE ANYTHING.
MR. COCHRAN: I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT AND HE DOESN'T
EITHER.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR --
MR. DARDEN: AS AMUSING AS I FIND MR. COCHRAN, HE IS MAKING SPEAKING
OBJECTIONS AND THE WITNESS IS ADOPTING HIS OBJECTIONS AS HER ANSWERS.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR --
MR. DARDEN: I THINK THAT IS CLEAR AND APPARENT TO EVERYBODY WATCHING.
MR. COCHRAN: I AM NOT MAKING SPEAKING OBJECTIONS, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: WHY THEN CONTINUE MAKING SPEAKING OBJECTIONS, COUNSEL?
THE COURT: AT THIS POINT THAT OBJECTION IS OVERRULED. I DID NOT OBSERVE
ANYTHING OR HEAR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE. THANK YOU.
MR. DARDEN: I BELIEVE YOU DID INSTRUCT MR. COCHRAN TO LIMIT HIS
OBJECTIONS TO LEGAL OBJECTIONS, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: I DID, AS I DID THE PROSECUTION. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. PROCEED.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY.
Q: SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TIME OR WHAT DAY IT WAS THAT YOU FIRST MET
CATHY RANDA?
MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: NO, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: BY THE WAY, WAS THERE A REWARD OUT FOR ANY PERSON WHO
COULD HELP MR. SIMPSON WIN THIS CASE AT THAT TIME?
A: NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.
Q: WAS SOMEONE ELSE IN THE CAR WITH CATHY RANDA?
Q: WHEN SHE PICKED YOU UP?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. SO YOU LEFT YOUR CAR THERE AND YOU GOT INTO HER CAR, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. SHE TOOK YOU TO MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. BY THE WAY, DID ANYONE GO WITH YOU TO MEET MISS RANDA?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WHO DID YOU MEET WITH ONCE YOU ARRIVED IN MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE?
A: WITH A GENTLEMAN WHOSE NAME IS BILL.
Q: HIS NAME IS WHAT?
A: BILL.
Q: IS BILL AN ATTORNEY?
A: I DON'T KNOW IF HE IS AN ATTORNEY.
Q: OKAY. WELL, IS BILL MR. PAVELIC?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WAS MR. JOHNNIE THERE AT THE TIME?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WAS MR. SHAPIRO THERE?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WAS PAT MC KENNA THERE?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WAS MR. MC NALLY THERE?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WAS MR. KARDASHIAN THERE?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WAS MR. JONES THERE?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: SO DID YOU GO INTO AN OFFICE LOCATED INSIDE MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICES?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND WHO DID YOU SPEAK WITH AT THAT TIME?
A: WITH MR. BILL.
Q: DID YOU SPEAK WITH ANYONE ELSE?
A: NOT THAT I CAN REMEMBER.
Q: WELL, WHEN YOU AND MR. BILL FIRST BEGAN SPEAKING, DID HE HAVE A NOTE
PAD WITH HIM?
Q: WELL, DID HE WRITE DOWN THE THINGS THAT YOU SAID?
Q: WELL, DID YOU SEE PAPER IN THE OFFICE?
A: SIR, IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE THIS HAPPENED AND I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q: WELL, WHAT MONTH WAS THIS?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.
Q: WAS IT IN AUGUST?
Q: WAS IT DURING THE SUMMER?
Q: WHAT YEAR WAS IT?
A: I JUST KNOW THAT IT WAS IN '94.
Q: OKAY. WAS IT ON JULY 29?
A: MAYBE.
Q: NOW, A MOMENT AGO YOU TOLD US YOU DON'T RECALL THE SEASON, THE DATE,
THE MONTH OR THE TIME OF DAY --
MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS COMPLEX AND ARGUMENTATIVE ALSO, YOUR HONOR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: -- CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: BUT YOU THINK THAT PERHAPS IT WAS JUNE 29 (SIC)?
A: IF YOU SAY SO.
Q: WELL, I'M NOT SAYING SO. I'M ASKING YOU TO SAY SO, MA'AM.
A: IT IS JUST THAT I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE BECAUSE I DON'T GO WRITING A
DATE.
Q: DO YOU HAVE A HARD TIME REMEMBERING DATES?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THIS. THIS IS ARGUMENTATIVE. SHE SAID
--
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DO YOU HAVE A HARD TIME REMEMBERING TIMES?
A: IF I DON'T -- IF I DON'T HAVE IT WRITTEN DOWN, HOW CAN I REMEMBER?
Q: OKAY. IS THAT THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN REMEMBER DATES AND TIMES, THAT IS, IF
IT IS WRITTEN DOWN?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU JUST TOLD US A MOMENT AGO?
MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR.
MR. COCHRAN: THE RECORD SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. PAVELIC, DID HE EVER TAPE THAT
CONVERSATION?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: DID HE TAPE BOTH THE CONVERSATIONS THAT YOU HAD WITH HIM?
A: I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE SECOND ONE.
Q: WELL, DURING THE SECOND INTERVIEW WAS THERE A TAPE RECORDER PRESENT?
A: HE DIDN'T TELL ME.
Q: WELL, DID HE TELL YOU THAT HE WAS TAPING THE FIRST ONE?
A: I SAW THAT HE PUT SOMETHING ON THE TABLE, BUT IT DIDN'T MATTER TO ME.
Q: WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. PAVELIC THE FIRST TIME, YOU TALKED ABOUT TIMES
AND VOICES; IS THAT RIGHT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU WERE TRYING TO TELL HIM WHAT YOU BELIEVE WERE THE CORRECT
TIMES, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND MR. PAVELIC KEPT TRYING TO PUSH SOME OF YOUR TIMES LATER, DIDN'T HE?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR
HONOR. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. ALSO MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE.
MR. COCHRAN: ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: LET ME REASK THE QUESTION, IF I MAY. TWO QUESTIONS.
Q: YOU GAVE MR. PAVELIC SOME TIMES, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU TRIED TO TELL HIM THE TIMES YOU BELIEVED WERE CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. IT IS MR. PAVELIC WHO DECIDED THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO AT 10:15 OR
10:20, AS OPPOSED TO A FEW MINUTES BEFORE OR AROUND TEN O'CLOCK,
CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. CALLS
FOR A CONCLUSION AND IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED.
MR. DARDEN: IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE?
THE COURT: NO, IT IS ALSO -- IT ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE AT THIS POINT
AND IT ALSO CALLS FOR SPECULATION, THAT IT IS -- THAT IT WAS PAVELIC WHO
DECIDED. WE HAVE REVIEWED THE TAPE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, DID MR. PAVELIC TELL YOU OR MENTION TO YOU FIRST
THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO AT 10:15 OR 10:20?
A: ALL I SAID WAS THAT IT WAS AFTER 10:00.
Q: SO YOU DON'T KNOW HOW LONG AFTER 10:00, CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: YOU DON'T KNOW HOW LONG AFTER 10:00?
Q: YES OR NO?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. MR. PAVELIC IS THE ONE THAT FIRST SUGGESTED 10:15 OR 10:20, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS SPECULATIVE, SPECULATION.
THE WITNESS: IF THAT IS WHAT HE IS SAYING, THAT IS FINE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: BUT WHAT YOU TOLD MR. PAVELIC WAS THAT YOU SAW THE
BRONCO SOME TIME AFTER TEN O'CLOCK AND YOU DON'T KNOW HOW LONG AFTER
10:00, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU SAID THAT AT SOME POINT MR. PAVELIC PUT SOMETHING
INTO THE TAPE RECORDER?
A: I HAVEN'T SAID THAT HE PUT ANYTHING.
Q: OKAY. WELL, DID YOU SAY THAT AT SOME POINT MR. PAVELIC TURNED ON THE
TAPE RECORDER?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WELL, BEFORE HE TURNED ON THE TAPE RECORDER, YOU AND HE HAD A LONG
CONVERSATION FIRST, CORRECT?
Q: HAVE YOU LISTENED TO THE TAPE, THAT IS, WITHIN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS?
A: HERE IN COURT.
Q: MR. JOHNNIE PLAYED A CASSETTE TAPE FOR YOU?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND HE PLAYED A TAPE THAT INCLUDED YOUR VOICE AND MR. BILL'S
VOICE, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND WHEN YOU HEARD THAT TAPE DID YOU ALSO HEAR PAPER SHUFFLING, THE
SOUND OF PAPER SHUFFLING IN THE BACKGROUND?
MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR.
MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DURING THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH MR. PAVELIC YOU
WOULD GIVE TIMES AND HE WOULD GIVE OTHER TIMES, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THIS. THE TAPE IS THE BEST EVIDENCE
OF THIS.
MR. COCHRAN: THIS IS --
THE WITNESS: IF YOU SAY SO, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: BUT I'M ASKING YOU, MA'AM. IS THAT CORRECT?
A: IT IS CORRECT.
Q: AND YOU DID NOT AGREE WITH ALL THE TIMES THAT MR. PAVELIC SAID, CORRECT?
A: MAYBE HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND ME.
THE WITNESS: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE SOME WATER.
THE COURT: YES. WE HAVE ONE FOR THE INTERPRETER AS WELL.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
MR. DARDEN: CAN I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK IN ABOUT SIX MINUTES.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: ARE YOU READY?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: DURING THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH MR. PAVELIC, HE NEVER TOLD YOU
THAT HE DID NOT UNDERSTAND YOU, CORRECT?
A: HE DIDN'T, BUT I DID.
Q: YOU TOLD MR. PAVELIC THAT HE WAS NOT UNDERSTANDING YOU CORRECTLY?
A: WHEN WE WERE ABOUT TO START THE CONVERSATION I TOLD HIM, "LET'S SEE IF
WE UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, SIR, BECAUSE MY ENGLISH IS VERY POOR."
Q: OKAY. AND DID YOU AND HE HAVE A CONVERSATION?
A: WHEN IT WAS BEING RECORDED.
Q: WELL, YOU HAVE NO DIFFICULTY IN SAYING "8:30," CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OR "TEN O'CLOCK," CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. OR "NINE O'CLOCK" OR "9:15," CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WOULD YOU -- WOULD YOU SAY "TEN O'CLOCK" FOR US.
A: (IN ENGLISH) AFTER 10:00, SENOR.
THE INTERPRETER: AFTER 10:00, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU ALSO TOLD US THE OTHER DAY THAT BEFORE GOING OUT,
YOU PUT SOME WATER ON TO BOIL?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND WERE YOU PLANNING TO HAVE A CUP OF TEA?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: ARE YOU A COFFEE DRINKER AT ALL?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WHEN YOU PUT WATER ON TO BOIL, WHAT YOU DID WAS YOU PUT A CUP OF
WATER INTO THE MICROWAVE, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU SET THE MICROWAVE FOR A MINUTE AND A HALF?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND THAT IS HOW YOU ALWAYS DO IT, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND AFTER YOU STARTED THE MICROWAVE, YOU LEFT THE HOUSE?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE AS TO
WHAT HAPPENED.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. WELL, YOU DIDN'T HAVE YOUR COFFEE, DID YOU?
MR. COCHRAN: THAT MISSTATES. SHE WASN'T DRINKING COFFEE, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: I'M SORRY.
Q: YOU DIDN'T HAVE YOUR TEA, CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. DID YOU LEAVE THE HOUSE WHILE THE WATER WAS BOILING IN THE
MICROWAVE?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: YOU NEVER HAD YOUR TEA?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: YOU TOLD US THAT WHEN YOU WENT OUT, AROUND TEN O'CLOCK --
MR. COCHRAN: THAT MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE. AFTER TEN O'CLOCK IS WHAT SHE
SAID.
THE COURT: REPHRASE THE QUESTION. EVER SO SLIGHTLY REPHRASE THE
QUESTION, PLEASE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, WHEN YOU TESTIFIED THE OTHER DAY AND WHEN YOU
WERE ASKED WHAT YOU DID AT TEN O'CLOCK, YOU STUTTERED AND YOU SAID --
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. HE
IS TESTIFYING AND IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
MR. DARDEN: THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.
THE COURT: THE STUTTERING PART IS, YES.
MR. DARDEN: WHAT IF THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED? DOES THAT STILL MAKE IT
ARGUMENTATIVE?
MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR. HE IS ARGUING WITH THE
COURT'S RULING.
THE COURT: ARGUMENTATIVE IS THE OBJECTION.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, ALSO ARGUING WITH YOUR RULING.
THE COURT: AND YOU ARE ALSO ARGUING WITH ME ABOUT ARGUING.
MR. COCHRAN: I WAS JUST POINTING IT OUT. I'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MR. DARDEN, PROCEED. REASK
YOUR QUESTION, PLEASE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU WERE DISCUSSING WHAT YOU DID AT, AFTER OR
AROUND TEN O'CLOCK, DIDN'T YOU SAY IN SPANISH THAT YOU LAST LOOKED AT THE
CLOCK SHORTLY BEFORE TEN O'CLOCK?
A: AT TEN O'CLOCK, SIR.
Q: NOW, THE CLOCK THAT YOU LOOKED AT AT TEN O'CLOCK, IS THAT THE CLOCK
THAT WAS IN YOUR BEDROOM?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: MRS. SALINGER WOULD SOMETIMES COME INTO YOUR BEDROOM, CORRECT?
A: I DON'T KNOW IF SHE WOULD COME INTO MY BEDROOM WHEN I WASN'T THERE.
Q: OKAY. WELL, WOULD SHE COME INTO YOUR BEDROOM SOMETIMES WHEN YOU
WERE THERE?
A: NOT THAT I CAN REMEMBER.
Q: ARE YOU SURE THAT YOU HAD A CLOCK ON YOUR NIGHTSTAND IN YOUR
BEDROOM?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND THIS CLOCK THAT YOU HAD, WAS IT A DIGITAL CLOCK OR DID IT HAVE
HANDS?
A: IT WAS DIGITAL, SIR.
Q: IS THAT THE ONLY KIND OF CLOCK YOU CAN TELL TIME FROM?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: BUT WHEN YOU DID LEAVE AT TEN O'CLOCK, YOU LEFT FOR A VERY SHORT TIME,
CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT. HE MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE AGAIN, YOUR HONOR.
ARGUMENTATIVE, MISSTATING THE EVIDENCE.
MR. COCHRAN: ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE. SHE SAID --
MR. DARDEN: HEY, HEY, HEY.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU LEFT AT TEN O'CLOCK --
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS VAGUE AS TO LEFT WHERE.
MR. COCHRAN: IT IS VAGUE.
THE COURT: YOU CAN ASK THE QUESTION. LAST QUESTION BEFORE THE BREAK.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU WERE OUTSIDE A VERY SHORT TIME, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S TAKE OUR RECESS. ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND
GENTLEMEN, MISS LOPEZ, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK FOR THE COURT
REPORTER AND THE INTERPRETERS. YOU ARE ORDERED TO COME BACK AT ELEVEN
O'CLOCK. ALL RIGHT. FIFTEEN MINUTES. ALL RIGHT. STAND IN RECESS FOR FIFTEEN
MINUTES.
(RECESS.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. ALL PARTIES
ARE AGAIN PRESENT. MISS ROSA LOPEZ IS AGAIN ON THE WITNESS STAND. GOOD
MORNING AGAIN, MISS LOPEZ.
THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, SIR.
THE COURT: AND I WILL REMIND YOU THAT YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION.
Q: MISS LOPEZ, WHEN YOU LEFT THE SALINGER'S, YOU PACKED YOUR CLOTHES UP?
A: I ALREADY HAD IT PARKED, SIR.
Q: SO YOU JUST GRABBED YOUR BAGS AND LEFT, CORRECT?
A: NOT EVERYTHING, SIR. I HAD MANY THINGS THAT HAD NOT BEEN PACKED YET, SO
--
Q: WELL, DID YOU ONLY TAKE YOUR CLOTHES WITH YOU WHEN YOU LEFT?
A: I TOOK EVERYTHING, SIR.
Q: WHAT IS EVERYTHING?
A: THINGS THAT I HAVE, SIR, JUNK I HAVE.
Q: DID YOU TAKE ANY FURNITURE?
A: I DON'T HAVE A HOUSE TO LIVE IN. I DON'T HAVE FURNITURE, SIR.
Q: SO YOU ONLY TOOK YOUR CLOTHES AND YOUR PHOTOGRAPHS AND YOUR
PERSONAL PAPERS?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. NOW, YOU AND I SPOKE HERE IN COURT LAST FRIDAY, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND WE ARE SPEAKING HERE IN COURT TODAY, RIGHT?
A: I THINK SO.
Q: OKAY. OKAY. YOU HAVE NEVER GIVEN MISS CLARK A FACE-TO-FACE INTERVIEW,
CORRECT?
A: SHE HAS NEVER ASKED ME FOR ONE, SIR.
Q: OKAY. YOU HAVE NEVER GIVEN ME A FACE-TO-FACE INTERVIEW, CORRECT?
A: THAT IS WHAT I HAVE MY ATTORNEY FOR, SIR.
Q: A VERY GOOD ATTORNEY, MISS LOPEZ.
MR. COCHRAN: WAS HE TESTIFYING, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: HE IS.
MR. DARDEN: MR. COCHRAN IS A VERY GOOD ATTORNEY, YOUR HONOR.
MR. COCHRAN: I AGREE, SO I WILL MOVE TO STRIKE THAT.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID -- DID -- DID MR. JOHNNIE TELL YOU NOT TO TALK TO ME?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WELL, DID HE TELL MR. JONES TO TELL YOU NOT TO TALK TO ME?
MR. COCHRAN: JUST A MOMENT. THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION, HEARSAY.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. DO YOU WANT TO REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID SOMEONE TELL YOU NOT TO TALK TO ME?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: ARE YOU AWARE THAT I HAVE ASKED YOUR ATTORNEY MANY, MANY TIMES FOR
PERMISSION TO SPEAK WITH YOU?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I THINK THE BEST PERSON TO ASK THAT WOULD BE
THE ATTORNEY, MR. JONES.
THE WITNESS: I DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOU.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, ARE YOU AWARE THAT I ASKED MR. JONES TO ASK YOU IF
IT WAS OKAY IF YOU AND I TALKED?
A: I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT UNTIL NOW, SIR.
Q: SO NOBODY EVER TOLD YOU THAT I WANTED TO TALK WITH YOU, CORRECT?
A: NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE, SIR.
Q: OKAY. BUT YOU HAVE SPOKEN TO MR. JOHNNIE ON MANY OCCASIONS, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU SPOKE TO MR. DOUGLAS THERE ALSO?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. YOU SPOKE TO MR. PAVELIC?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND MR. MC KENNA?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. DID YOU SPEAK TO MR. BAILEY?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. YOU SPOKE TO ALL THE LAWYERS IN THE ROOM BUT MISS CLARK AND I; IS
THAT CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. SHE SPOKE TO HIM LAST
FRIDAY AND SHE IS SPEAKING TO HIM NOW.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHERE DID YOU GO DURING THE BREAK WE JUST HAD A FEW
MOMENTS AGO?
A: BEHIND THE OFFICE, SIR.
Q: YOU WENT TO A ROOM LOCATED DIRECTLY BEHIND THIS COURTROOM?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. IS THAT CALLED THE JURY ROOM?
Q: OKAY. IS THERE A LARGE TABLE IN THERE?
A: A ROUND TABLE, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND ARE THERE APPROXIMATELY TWELVE CHAIRS LOCATED IN THAT
ROOM?
MR. COCHRAN: NO. OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. HE HAS TO BE IN THE
ROOM. OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.
THE COURT: HE IS ASSUMING FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.
MR. COCHRAN: ASSUMING FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.
MR. DARDEN: THIS IS CROSS-EXAMINATION. I'M ASKING THE WITNESS A QUESTION.
THE COURT: GO AHEAD. THERE IS NO DISPUTE THAT THAT IS THE ROOM BACK THERE.
THERE IS NO DISPUTE IT IS THE JURY ROOM, MR. COCHRAN. IS THAT A STIPULATION?
MR. COCHRAN: I'M NOT TESTIFYING, COUNSEL.
THE COURT: PROCEED.
MR. DARDEN: IS THAT A STIPULATION.
THE COURT: I'M JUST SAYING IT IS A MINOR POINT. OBVIOUSLY SINCE WE NOW HAVE
22 JURORS, THERE ARE 22 CHAIRS BACK THERE, OTHER THAN THAT MINOR POINT.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY. THANK YOU.
Q: WHEN YOU WENT INTO THAT ROOM, DID YOU GO INTO THAT ROOM WITH MR.
JOHNNIE HERE?
A: I WENT IN THERE FIRST, SIR.
Q: OKAY. DID MR. JOHNNIE GO IN AFTER YOU?
A: YES, WITH MY ATTORNEY, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND WHO ELSE WENT INTO THE ROOM WITH YOU?
A: IRMA, SIR.
Q: IRMA?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. MISS HAMBURGER, DID SHE GO INTO THE ROOM?
A: THAT IS WHY I AM REFERRING TO MY ATTORNEY, SIR.
Q: OKAY. OKAY. WHO ELSE WENT INTO THE ROOM?
A: THE GENTLEMAN, MR. BILLER, THE GENTLEMAN HERE, THE TWO ATTORNEYS THAT
ARE HERE.
Q: MR. DOUGLAS AND MR. BAILEY?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. DID ANYONE ELSE GO INTO THE ROOM?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AFTER YOU WENT INTO THE ROOM, DID THEY CLOSE THE DOOR?
Q: DID THEY CLOSE THE DOOR AFTER YOU WENT INTO THE ROOM?
A: OH, I DON'T KNOW IF THEY CLOSED IT, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WELL, YOU HAD A TALK WITH ALL OF THESE LAWYERS BACK THERE IN THE
JURY ROOM, CORRECT?
A: WITH MR. COCKER, SIR.
Q: OKAY. DID YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WHAT DID YOU TALK ABOUT?
A: WE TALKED ABOUT MY ALWAYS TELLING THE TRUTH, SIR. THAT IS WHAT I'M
SAYING NOW, SIR.
(LAUGHTER.)
MR. DARDEN: I APOLOGIZE.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS -- YOUR HONOR, THAT IS TOTALLY
INAPPROPRIATE. YOUR HONOR, TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE.
MR. DARDEN: THAT WAS NOT APPROPRIATE. I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY WHATEVER THAT WAS BE STRICKEN FROM THE RECORD, YOUR
HONOR?
THE COURT: IT WILL BE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHO TOLD YOU TO ALWAYS TALK ABOUT TELLING THE TRUTH?
A: I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TOLD THAT BY ALL OF THEM, SIR.
Q: AND DID THEY TELL YOU THAT LAST YEAR WHEN YOU SPOKE TO THEM?
MR. COCHRAN: ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE, THAT HE SPOKE TO HER LAST
YEAR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. IT IS IN THE RECORD. 1994 WHEN THE FIRST INTERVIEW
TOOK PLACE.
MR. COCHRAN: HE SAYS "WHEN THEY." TALKING NOW ABOUT US, YOUR HONOR. HE
DIDN'T TALK TO HER.
MR. COCHRAN: OKAY.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: IS THAT WHAT THEY TOLD YOU LAST YEAR?
A: FROM THE FIRST TIME THAT I SAW THEM, SIR.
Q: WAS THAT LAST YEAR, 1994?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF I SAW A GENTLEMAN IN THE YEAR, '94.
Q: OKAY. YOU SAW MR. JOHNNIE IN '94?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF I SAW HIM, SIR.
Q: YOU SAW MR. DOUGLAS IN '94?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: YOU SAW MR. SHAPIRO IN '94?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: DID YOU HEAR MR. JOHNNY'S OPENING STATEMENT ON JANUARY 23RD?
Q: IN THIS CASE?
A: I WAS WORKING. I DIDN'T HEAR IT, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WELL, HAD YOU SPOKEN TO MR. JOHNNIE PRIOR TO HEARING YOUR NAME
ON TELEVISION?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WHERE DID YOU FIRST SPEAK TO MR. JOHNNIE?
A: AT MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE.
Q: WAS MR. JOHNNIE THERE THAT DAY WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. PAVELIC?
A: WHAT WAS THAT YOU SAID?
Q: OKAY. WAS MR. JOHNNIE AT MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE THE FIRST DAY THAT YOU
SPOKE TO MR. BILL?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WELL, WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. JOHNNIE THE FIRST TIME, WAS
THAT IN THE SAME OFFICE THAT YOU HAD SPOKEN TO MR. BILL PREVIOUSLY?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WHO ELSE WAS PRESENT WITH YOURSELF AND MR. JOHNNIE?
Q: WELL, WAS THERE ANOTHER LAWYER PRESENT?
A: UP UNTIL NOW THERE WERE OTHER PERSONS THERE, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW IF THEY
WERE ATTORNEYS OR NOT.
Q: DO YOU SEE ANY OF THOSE OTHER PERSONS HERE IN COURT NOW?
Q: YOU ONLY REMEMBER MR. JOHNNIE?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WAS CATHY RANDA PRESENT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WAS MR. MC KENNA PRESENT?
Q: WAS IRMA PRESENT?
THE INTERPRETER: WHO?
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: IRMA?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM REMEMBERING THINGS?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THAT. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, DO YOU HAVE A FAULTY MEMORY?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT, YOUR HONOR. CALLS FOR
SPECULATION.
THE WITNESS: NOT -- NO, SIR, NOT THAT I BELIEVE SO.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MR. COCHRAN TOLD YOU TO TELL THE TRUTH WHEN YOU
TESTIFIED, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: LET'S TALK ABOUT SYLVIA.
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. PAVELIC THE FIRST TIME, WAS THE ENTIRE INTERVIEW
TAPED?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.
THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, YOU LISTENED TO YOUR TAPED INTERVIEW WITH MR.
PAVELIC JUST THE OTHER DAY, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: DID THAT TAPE CONTAIN EVERYTHING YOU AND HE TALKED ABOUT THAT DAY?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: THERE WERE OTHER THINGS THAT THE TWO OF YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT IS NOT
ON THE TAPE, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT THOSE OTHER THINGS THE TAPE WAS ON,
CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, YOU SAW MR. BILL MESS AROUND WITH THE TAPE
RECORDER?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. THAT IS
NOT EVEN A LEGAL --
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.
THE COURT: THANK YOU. SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION. "MESS AROUND" IS
KIND OF A VAGUE TERM.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, WHAT DID YOU SEE MR. BILL DO WITH THE TAPE
RECORDER?
MR. COCHRAN: ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE, HE DID ANYTHING WITH IT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. THERE HAS ALREADY BEEN TESTIMONY TO THAT.
THE WITNESS: THE FIRST TIME, SIR? ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST TIME?
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YES, YES, THE FIRST TIME?
A: I SAW THAT HE PUSHED THE BUTTON AND THAT'S IT.
Q: OKAY. OKAY. WELL, DID YOU HAVE A TALK WITH HIM PRIOR TO THE PUSHING OF
THE BUTTON?
Q: IS IT THAT YOU DON'T REMEMBER OR IS IT THAT YOU JUST DON'T WANT TO TELL
IS?
MR. COCHRAN: JUST A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. SHE SAID
SHE DIDN'T REMEMBER.
THE COURT: YES, IT IS.
MR. COCHRAN: IS THAT SUSTAINED?
THE COURT: YES. I SAID YES, IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: TELL US THE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU TOLD MR. BILL THAT
AREN'T ON THE TAPE.
A: OH, ASK ME, SIR, BECAUSE I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.
Q: WELL, IF YOU DON'T REMEMBER, HOW IS IT THEN THAT YOU KNOW THAT THERE
ARE THINGS THAT YOU TOLD HIM THAT ARE NOT ON THE TAPE?
A: ASK ME WHATEVER YOU WANT, SIR, BUT I CANNOT ANSWER THAT FOR YOU.
Q: DOES IT APPEAR TO YOU THAT THERE ARE THINGS THAT WERE SAID ON THE TAPE
THAT ARE NO LONGER ON THE TAPE?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS --
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. THERE IS AN ASSUMPTION THERE THAT SOMETHING HAS
BEEN TAKEN OUT OF THE TAPE. THERE IS NO FOUNDATION FOR THAT --
MR. DARDEN: OKAY.
THE COURT: -- BY THE WAY THE QUESTION IS PHRASED.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU TESTIFIED THE OTHER DAY, YOU MADE NO MENTION
OF SYLVIA, CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: YOU DID NOT MENTION HER NAME?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: AND ON THE TAPE OF YOUR INTERVIEW WITH MR. BILL THERE WAS NO MENTION
OF SYLVIA, CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: DID YOU TELL MR. BILL ABOUT SYLVIA?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND DID YOU TELL HIM ABOUT SYLVIA DURING THAT FIRST CONVERSATION THAT
YOU HAD WITH HIM?
Q: WELL, WHEN DID YOU TELL MR. BILL ABOUT SYLVIA?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE OR THE TIME, SIR, BECAUSE A LOT OF TIME HAS
PASSED.
Q: WELL, YOU ONLY HAD TWO CONVERSATIONS WITH MR. BILL, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WAS IT THE FIRST TIME OR THE SECOND TIME?
A: THE SECOND TIME, SIR.
Q: AND THAT SECOND INTERVIEW YOU HAD WITH MR. BILL WAS IN AUGUST,
CORRECT?
A: IF YOU SAY SO, SIR, THAT IS WHAT IT WILL BE.
Q: IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID TO MR. BILL, "IF YOU SAY SO, THAT IS THE WAY IT WILL
BE"?
A: IT IS JUST THAT HE ASKS ME DIFFERENTLY, SIR.
Q: IN AUGUST YOU TOLD MR. BILL THAT YOU HAD A FRIEND NAMED SYLVIA,
CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU TOLD MR. BILL THAT SYLVIA CAME BY YOUR HOUSE FOR COFFEE?
A: SHE CAME TO HAVE A CUP OF COFFEE WITH ME, SIR.
Q: THE NIGHT OF THE MURDERS SYLVIA CAME TO YOUR HOUSE FOR A CUP OF
COFFEE?
MR. COCHRAN: ASSUMES -- NEVER MIND. WITHDRAWN.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND THAT WAS AFTER NINE O'CLOCK, CORRECT?
A: AT ABOUT 8:30, SIR, OR 8:45, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
Q: OKAY. WELL, DID YOU TELL MR. -- MR. PAVELIC THAT YOU -- THAT YOU SAW MR.
SIMPSON'S CAR BETWEEN 8:30 AND NINE O'CLOCK?
A: WHAT CAR ARE YOU REFERRING TO, SIR?
Q: WELL, DID YOU TELL MR. PAVELIC THAT YOU SAW MR. SIMPSON DRIVE OFF
BETWEEN 8:30 AND NINE O'CLOCK?
MR. COCHRAN: CAN WE HAVE WHICH CONVERSATION HE IS TALKING ABOUT?
THE INTERPRETER: REPEAT YOUR QUESTION, PLEASE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: IN YOUR SECOND INTERVIEW DID YOU TELL MR. PAVELIC THAT
YOU SAW MISS LOPEZ DROVE OFF?
MR. COCHRAN: HE MISSPOKE, YOUR HONOR. HE SAID "LOPEZ."
MR. DARDEN: YES, I DID MISSPEAK MYSELF.
THE COURT: REPHRASE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: IN YOUR SECOND INTERVIEW DID YOU TELL MR. BILL THAT YOU
SAW MR. SIMPSON DRIVE OFF BETWEEN 8:30 AND 9:00?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU TOLD HIM THAT SOMETIME AFTER THAT SYLVIA CAME BY, CORRECT?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS BEFORE OR AFTER, SIR.
Q: WELL, YOU REMEMBERED WHEN YOU TALKED TO MR. BILL, DIDN'T YOU?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. YOU TOLD MR. BILL 8:30 TO 9:00 WAS THE TIME THAT YOU SAW MR. SIMPSON
DRIVE OFF, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND THE REASON YOU SAID 8:30 TO 9:00 IS BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T SURE OF
THE EXACT TIME, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. YOU WERE GIVING HIM YOUR BEST ESTIMATE, CORRECT?
A: THAT IS WHAT I TOLD HIM, SIR.
Q: OKAY. THE LONGER TIME GOES BY THE HARDER IT IS FOR YOU TO REMEMBER THE
EXACT TIME IN WHICH THINGS OCCURRED, CORRECT?
A: IF THAT IS WHAT YOU SAY, SIR, THAT IS FINE.
Q: THAT IS WHAT I'M ASKING YOU.
A: IF YOU SAY SO, SIR, YES.
Q: SO THE LONGER THAT -- STRIKE THAT. AND YOU TOLD MR. BILL THAT SYLVIA CAME
BY ABOUT FIFTEEN MINUTES OR TEN TO FIFTEEN MINUTES AFTER MR. SIMPSON
DROVE OFF?
A: I TOLD HIM THAT IT WAS BEFORE THE GENTLEMAN LEFT, SIR.
Q: WHAT GENTLEMAN?
A: MR. SIMPSON, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DIDN'T YOU TELL MR. PAVELIC THAT SYLVIA CAME OVER AFTER
MR. SIMPSON DROVE AWAY?
Q: YOU KNOW THAT I'VE TALKED TO SYLVIA, DON'T YOU?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THAT, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.
THE COURT: REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: ARE YOU AWARE THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO SYLVIA?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, IS THAT LIKE SOME KIND OF -- I OBJECT TO THE
FORM OF THAT QUESTION.
MR. DARDEN: I HAVE OBJECTED TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION 150 TIMES.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED. HAVE A SEAT, MR. COCHRAN.
THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW IF YOU TALKED, SIR, BUT SHE TOLD ME THAT
SOMEONE HAD TALKED TO HER.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. AND YOU SAW HER HERE IN COURT THE OTHER DAY,
CORRECT?
THE INTERPRETER: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR. MAY I HAVE THAT LAST QUESTION
REPEATED, PLEASE?
THE COURT: YES.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND YOU SAW HER HERE IN COURT THE OTHER DAY, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU SAY MR. JOHNNIE TOLD YOU TO TELL THE TRUTH, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: THE TRUTH IS, IS THAT SYLVIA DID NOT COME TO YOUR HOUSE FOR COFFEE,
CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THIS QUESTION AS ARGUMENTATIVE,
YOUR HONOR.
MR. COCHRAN: THE QUESTION IS ARGUMENTATIVE.
THE WITNESS: WE HAD A COFFEE AND WE ATE TAMALES, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND HOW LONG WAS SYLVIA AT THE HOUSE?
A: FOR A VERY SHORT TIME.
Q: HOW LONG?
A: I DON'T KNOW.
Q: HOW MANY TAMALES DID YOU EAT?
A: WELL, SINCE I'M SO SKINNY I ATE ONE, SIR.
Q: THE TRUTH IS THAT SYLVIA HAS NEVER BEEN TO THE SALINGER'S, CORRECT?
A: SHE HAS COME OVER MANY TIMES, SIR.
Q: SHE HAS NEVER BEEN INSIDE THE HOUSE, CORRECT?
A: YES, SHE HAS, SIR.
Q: SHE HAS NEVER BEEN INSIDE THE KITCHEN, CORRECT?
A: I THINK SHE KNOWS IT BETTER THAN II DO.
Q: SHE HAS NEVER --
(LAUGHTER)
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SYLVIA HAS MET THE SALINGERS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: AND SYLVIA OWNS A CAR, DOES SHE?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: AND SHE LIVES HOW MANY BLOCKS AWAY FROM THE SALINGERS?
A: I HAVEN'T COUNTED THEM, SIR.
Q: BUT YOU HAVE BEEN TO THE HOUSE WHERE SHE WORKS, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND THE PEOPLE THAT OWN THAT HOUSE TOLD YOU NOT TO COME BACK
TO THEIR HOME, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: WHAT IS THE RELEVANCE OF THAT?
MR. DARDEN: I WILL WITHDRAW IT FOR NOW, YOUR HONOR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SYLVIA WAS AT THE SALINGER'S HAVING TAMALES AND COFFEE
FOR TEN MINUTES; IS THAT CORRECT?
Q: OKAY. WELL, DID YOU DRIVE HER HOME?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND WHAT TIME DID YOU DRIVE HER HOME?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER RIGHT NOW, SIR.
Q: WELL, WHEN YOU DROVE HER HOME, DID YOU SEE THE BRONCO?
A: I SAW A WHITE CAR PARKED UP THE STREET, SIR.
Q: WELL, WHEN YOU DROVE SYLVIA HOME DID YOU SEE THE WHITE BRONCO YOU
DESCRIBED EARLIER?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WAS THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU SAW THE BRONCO THAT NIGHT?
A: I SAW THE BRONCO SOMETIME PAST 8:00, SIR.
Q: SO WHEN YOU TOOK SYLVIA HOME, THAT WAS THE SECOND OR THIRD TIME THAT
YOU HAVE SEEN THE BRONCO?
A: THE SECOND TIME, SIR.
Q: SO YOU HAD SEEN THE BRONCO EVEN EARLIER THAN THAT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. VAGUE. VAGUE AS TO -- YES. REPHRASE THE QUESTION,
"BEFORE THAT."
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHY IS THERE NO MENTION OF SYLVIA ON THE TAPED
INTERVIEW, IF YOU KNOW?
A: BECAUSE THE GENTLEMAN DID NOT ASK ME.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A TWO-PAGE STATEMENT HERE. I WOULD LIKE
TO MARK IT NEXT IN ORDER. IS THAT 88?
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I SEE IT, COUNSEL?
THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 88.
MR. DARDEN: JULY 29TH STATEMENT FROM MR. PAVELIC, A COPY OF THE ONE MR.
COCHRAN GAVE ME.
(PEO'S 88 FOR ID = 2-PG STMT/7/29/94 FRM PAVELIC)
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, DO YOU READ ENGLISH?
A: NO, SIR. I CAN BARELY READ SPANISH.
MR. DARDEN: I'M GOING TO ASK THE INTERPRETER TO READ THE FOURTH LINE OF
THAT DOCUMENT FROM THE TOP TO YOU.
Q: THE DATE IS INDICATED AS JULY 29, 1994, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, MAY I ASK AN INQUIRY? FOR WHAT PURPOSE IS THIS,
YOUR HONOR? THIS IS PAVELIC'S STATEMENT TO SHAPIRO. FIND OUT WHAT PURPOSE
IS THERE. THERE IS NO INDICATION OF ANY REFRESHING RECOLLECTION.
THE COURT: IT COULD BE A PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENT.
MR. COCHRAN: COULD WE HEAR THAT? COULD WE HAVE AN OFFER?
THE COURT: LET ME SEE COUNSEL HERE AT THE SIDE BAR WITH THE REPORTER.
THE COURT: OVER AT THE SIDE BAR. OKAY. THE OBJECTION IS WHERE ARE WE GOING
WITH THIS?
MR. COCHRAN: YES.
THE COURT: AND THE QUESTION IS PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS?
MR. DARDEN: I ASSUME HE WROTE IT BECAUSE HE CLAIMED SHE SAID IT AND THAT
SHE SAID IT AT THAT TIME, SO I'M GOING TO SHOW HER THE DOCUMENT.
THE COURT: DID YOU SAY THIS? DID YOU SAY THIS?
MR. DARDEN: YES.
THE COURT: DID YOU SAY THIS?
MS. CLARK: YES.
MR. DARDEN: THE STATEMENT IS ATTRIBUTED TO HER.
MR. COCHRAN: BUT THE STATEMENT IS WRITTEN BY SOMEBODY ELSE AND SHE
NEVER SAW IT. I THINK THERE IS SOME FOUNDATIONAL -- IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE
FAIR TO THE WITNESS, THERE IS A FOUNDATION, HAS SHE EVER SEEN THIS
STATEMENT OR WHATEVER.
THE COURT: I AGREE. THERE IS A COUPLE OF FOUNDATIONAL QUESTIONS YOU NEED
TO ASK.
MR. DARDEN: SO DID MR. PAVELIC CREATE THIS ON HIS OWN OR WHAT?
MR. COCHRAN: HE WENT TO LAW SCHOOL, SO I WANT HIM TO USE THE REGULAR
RULES THAT WE LEARNED IN LAW SCHOOL.
THE COURT: WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THOSE KIND OF COMMENTS TODAY. WE
WILL MOVE ON FROM THE LAW SCHOOL COMMENTS. JUST A COUPLE MORE
FOUNDATIONAL QUESTIONS, BUT I THINK HE IS ENTITLED TO GO INTO IT SINCE IT IS
ATTRIBUTED TO HER.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY. WE ARE GOING TO GO ALL AFTERNOON, CORRECT?
THE COURT: I HOPE WE ARE GOING TO GO UNTIL WE FINISH.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY. THANK YOU.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. IS YOUR MICROPHONE ON?
MR. DARDEN: YES, IT IS. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q: YOU SAY THAT SYLVIA CAME OVER TO THE SALINGER'S OFTEN, CORRECT?
THE INTERPRETER: I'M SORRY, COUNSEL?
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SYLVIA CAME TO THE SALINGER'S HOME OFTEN?
A: ONCE IN A WHILE.
Q: WELL, HOW MANY TIMES HAS SHE BEEN INSIDE THE SALINGER'S HOME?
Q: OKAY. GIVE US AN APPROXIMATION.
A: I CAN'T GIVE YOU AN APPROXIMATION BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW, SIR.
Q: WELL, IS IT MORE THAN TWENTY TIMES?
MR. COCHRAN: SHE HAS BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE WITNESS: NO, SIR. NOT TWENTY TIMES, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. WAS IT LESS THAN TWENTY TIMES?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WAS IT LESS THAN FIFTEEN TIMES?
A: MAYBE, SIR.
Q: LESS THAN FIVE TIMES?
A: NOT FEWER THAN FIVE TIMES, SIR.
Q: APPROXIMATELY FIVE TIMES?
A: IF YOU SAY SO, SIR.
Q: YOU TELL ME, MISS LOPEZ.
A: I ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.
Q: APPROXIMATELY FIVE TIMES?
MR. COCHRAN: THE WITNESS SAID SHE DIDN'T REMEMBER.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: IS FIVE TIMES A FAIR APPROXIMATION?
A: IT IS JUST THAT I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.
Q: EARLIER YOU SAID THAT SHE HAD BEEN OVER MANY TIMES. DO YOU RECALL
THAT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU SAID THAT SHE KNEW THE KITCHEN BETTER THAN YOU DID PERHAPS?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. BUT SHE HAD ONLY BEEN TO THE HOUSE APPROXIMATELY FIVE TIMES,
CORRECT.
MR. COCHRAN: SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T REMEMBER. MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE. THAT IS
NOT WHAT SHE SAID.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED, SUSTAINED, SUSTAINED.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SHE HAD BEEN TO THE HOUSE NO MORE THAN FIVE TIMES?
MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. IT IS IN THE CONTEXT OF THE SECOND QUESTION.
OVERRULED.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SHE HAD BEEN TO THE HOUSE NO MORE THAN FIVE TIMES,
CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND DID SHE COME TO THE HOUSE AT A -- AT THE SAME TIME
EACH TIME THAT SHE CAME?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: AND YOU HAVE KNOWN HER HOW LONG?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER. OVER TWO YEARS, SIR.
Q: SHE CAME TO THE HOUSE -- OVER TWO YEARS? SHE CAME TO THE HOUSE, WHAT,
EVERY WEEK?
A: NO, SIR, BUT WE WOULD TALK EVERYDAY, SIR.
Q: YOU WOULD TALK EVERYDAY?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: ON THE TELEPHONE?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: TO GO BACK TO THE INTERVIEWS THAT YOU HAD WITH THE ATTORNEYS SEATED
HERE, YOU ALSO HAD SEVERAL CONVERSATIONS WITH THE INVESTIGATORS,
CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU HAD SEVERAL CONVERSATIONS WITH MR. BILL?
A: NOT WITH BILL ANY MORE, SIR.
Q: YOU HAD SEVERAL CONVERSATIONS WITH PATTY MC KENNA?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHEN YOU LEFT COURT FRIDAY AFTERNOON, YOU LEFT
WITH MR. MC KENNA, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU AND HE WENT SOMEPLACE TOGETHER, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU AND HE STAYED TOGETHER ALL WEEKEND, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THE CASE OVER THE WEEKEND, CORRECT?
A: HE JUST TELLS ME TO TELL THE TRUTH, SIR.
MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, MOTION TO STRIKE.
MR. DARDEN: NONRESPONSIVE, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY.
Q: MR. MC KENNA DIDN'T DISCUSS THE FACTS OF THE CASE WITH YOU LAST
WEEKEND?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: DID ANYONE DISCUSS THE FACTS OF THE CASE WITH YOU LAST WEEKEND?
A: NO, SIR, NOR DO I WANT TO KNOW IT.
Q: DID ANYONE DISCUSS WITH YOU YOUR TESTIMONY LAST WEEKEND?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: DID YOU MEET WITH THE LAWYERS AT ALL LAST WEEKEND?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: AND SO WHEN YOU WENT TO MR. COCHRAN'S OFFICE AT TWO O'CLOCK
SATURDAY AFTERNOON AND WHEN YOU CAME BACK TO YOUR HOTEL AROUND
NINE O'CLOCK --
A: YES, SIR.
Q: -- YOU SPOKE TO MR. JOHNNIE OVER THE WEEKEND, DIDN'T YOU?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU TALKED ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY, CORRECT?
A: HE JUST TELLS ME TO TELL THE TRUTH, SIR.
Q: DID YOU DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH MR. JOHNNIE OVER THE WEEKEND?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: SO YOU DIDN'T TALK ABOUT ANYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH WHAT YOU WERE
GOING TO SAY ON THE WITNESS STAND?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. YOU SPENT SEVEN HOURS WITH MR. JOHNNIE SATURDAY?
A: I DON'T SPEND THEM JUST WITH HIM, SIR.
Q: OKAY. YOU SPENT TIME WITH OTHER LAWYERS?
A: WATCHING TELEVISION, SIR.
Q: AND YOU SPENT TIME WITH THE INVESTIGATORS?
A: THEY WERE VERY BUSY, I DON'T KNOW, IN THEIR OFFICES, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND DID YOU WATCH YOUR TESTIMONY, THE TESTIMONY YOU
GAVE FRIDAY, ON TELEVISION WHILE YOU WERE AT MR. JOHNNIE'S OFFICE?
A: NO, SIR. I DON'T LIKE TO WATCH TELEVISION.
Q: OKAY. SO YOU DIDN'T DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH MR. JOHNNIE AT ALL ON
SATURDAY; IS THAT CORRECT?
Q: WELL, A MOMENT AGO YOU SAID YOU DID. NOW, YOU SAY YOU DON'T
REMEMBER?
MR. COCHRAN: SHE IS CONFUSED.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR -- THE TERM IS "TESTIMONY," YOUR HONOR, I THINK.
THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID YOU TALK WITH MR. JOHNNIE ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY
HERE IN COURT?
MR. COCHRAN: USE ANOTHER WORD.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU DIDN'T TALK TO HIM ABOUT THAT LAST SATURDAY?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. SO YOU WERE IN HIS OFFICE FOR SEVEN HOURS, THOUGH, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND THE FOLLOWING SUNDAY DID YOU DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANY
LAWYER?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. DID YOU SEE ANY OF THESE LAWYERS HERE IN COURT TODAY LAST
SUNDAY?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER. I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q: WELL TODAY IS THURSDAY, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND SUNDAY WAS WHAT, FIVE DAYS AGO?
A: I THINK SO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHETHER OR NOT YOU SAW ANY OF THESE
LAWYERS LAST SUNDAY?
A: IT IS JUST THAT I WENT SHOPPING, SIR.
Q: YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF YOU SAW ANY OF THESE LAWYERS HERE IN THE COURT
LAST SUNDAY?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF THEY TOOK ME OR IF THEY DIDN'T TAKE ME, SIR.
Q: YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF THE LAWYERS TOOK YOU SHOPPING OR NOT?
A: MY ATTORNEY AND THE WIFE OF MY ATTORNEY TOOK ME SHOPPING, SIR.
Q: DO YOU REMEMBER IF YOU SAW THESE ATTORNEYS LAST SUNDAY?
THE COURT: INDICATING THE ATTORNEYS HERE IN THE COURTROOM.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YES OR NO?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WELL, ISN'T IT TRUE THAT AT LEAST ONE OF THESE ATTORNEYS VISITED YOU AT
YOUR HOTEL?
Q: LAST SUNDAY?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: NOW, WHEN I ASK YOU A QUESTION, YOU LOOK OVER AT THE
LAWYERS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TABLE, CORRECT?
A: (IN ENGLISH) I CAN TURN MY CHAIR THIS WAY.
MS. LEWIS: WHAT DID SHE SAY?
THE WITNESS: (IN ENGLISH) I CAN SEE ONLY YOU. NOW, OKAY. I TURN THIS WAY. I
LOOK AT HIM BETTER THAN YOU.
THE COURT: ACTUALLY, MISS LOPEZ, SINCE WE ARE TAPE-RECORDING --
THE WITNESS: OKAY.
THE COURT: -- I WOULD PREFER IF YOU LOOK AT MR. DARDEN?
THE WITNESS: TAKE AT MY PICTURE. BEAUTIFUL TODAY. EVERYBODY CAN LOOK AT
ME TODAY.
MR. DARDEN: YOU CAN LOOK AT THE CAMERA IF YOU DON'T WANT TO LOOK AT
ME.
THE WITNESS: OKAY. THAT'S FINE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: LET ME ASK YOU AGAIN. WERE YOU VISITED AT YOUR HOTEL BY
ONE OF THESE LAWYERS ON SUNDAY?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WERE YOU VISITED BY MR. DOUGLAS HERE WITH THE RED TIE HERE, (INDICATING)?
Q: LAST SUNDAY?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. NOW, YOU SAY YOU WERE TAKEN SHOPPING?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND WHEN YOU WENT SHOPPING, DID YOU SPEND YOUR OWN MONEY?
A: MONEY THAT HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME AS A GIFT, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WHEN YOU WENT SHOPPING ON SUNDAY, DID SOMEONE BUY YOU
CLOTHES?
A: MY WIFE'S --
THE INTERPRETER: EXCUSE ME. SCRATCH THAT.
THE COURT: THE WIFE OF MY ATTORNEY.
THE WITNESS: MY ATTORNEY'S WIFE, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DO YOU SEE YOUR ATTORNEY'S WIFE HERE IN COURT NOW?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WAS THAT MR. JONES' WIFE THAT BOUGHT YOU CLOTHES?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WAS IT MISS HAMBURGER'S WIFE THAT BOUGHT YOU CLOTHES?
MR. COCHRAN: I THINK COUNSEL -- YOUR HONOR, COUNSEL MISSTATES HIMSELF,
OBVIOUSLY.
THE COURT: NO. I THINK IT IS DELIBERATELY ASKED THAT WAY.
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM.
THE COURT: HOW ABOUT THE SPOUSE OF MISS HAMBURGER, JUST TO CLARIFY.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY.
MS. CLARK: SHE SAID "WIFE."
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHO IS THE HUSBAND OF THE WIFE THAT BOUGHT YOU CLOTHES
ON SUNDAY?
A: MR. CARL JONES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. MR. CARL JONES' WIFE BOUGHT YOU CLOTHES?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. OKAY. DID HE BUY YOU THE SHOES YOU ARE WEARING TODAY?
A: HE BOUGHT ME TWO PAIR, SIR.
Q: TWO PAIRS OF SHOES. AND DID HE BUY YOU THE LAVENDER DRESS YOU WORE IN
COURT ON MONDAY?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND DID HE BUY YOU THE LOVELY DRESS YOU ARE WEARING HERE TODAY?
A: THANK YOU, SIR, BUT THIS WAS BOUGHT FOR ME BY MISS HAMBURGER.
Q: OKAY. AND THE BLAZER YOU ARE WEARING, WHO BOUGHT THAT FOR YOU?
A: THE LADY BOUGHT IT FOR ME YESTERDAY.
Q: WHAT LADY?
A: MRS. HAMBURGER.
Q: OKAY. NOW, WHEN YOU LEFT THE SALINGER'S ON FEBRUARY 10, THEY GAVE YOU
SOME MONEY, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR, THEY HAD TO PAY ME.
Q: OKAY. THEY GAVE YOU MORE THAN A THOUSAND DOLLARS?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: HOW MUCH MONEY DID THEY GIVE YOU?
A: DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU, SIR?
Q: YES.
A: THAT I CAN REMEMBER, SIR, THEY GAVE ME TWO SMALL CHECKS, SIR.
Q: WAS ONE OF THOSE SMALL CHECKS FOR $700.00?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WHAT WAS THE CHECK FOR?
A: 318, SIR, AND SOME CENTS.
Q: OKAY. WHAT WAS THE OTHER CHECK FOR?
A: 318, SIR.
Q: SO HE GAVE YOU $638.00?
A: (IN ENGLISH) SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
THE COURT: 36.
MR. COCHRAN: 36.
THE INTERPRETER: SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: NOW, WHEN YOU LEFT THE SALINGER'S YOU WENT TO YOUR
DAUGHTER'S HOUSE, RIGHT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: NOW, THE ATTORNEY THAT YOU GOT ORIGINALLY -- MR. JONES, RIGHT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: -- HE WAS RECOMMENDED TO YOU BY MR. JOHNNIE?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY MR. JONES, CORRECT?
A: WE HAVE MADE ARRANGEMENTS THAT I'M GOING TO PAY HIM LITTLE BY LITTLE
WHEN I START WORKING, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WELL, LAST FRIDAY WHEN YOU TESTIFIED, YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE
GOING TO PAY HIM WHEN THE CASE WAS OVER, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT
QUESTION WITH REGARD TO TESTIMONY. I THINK IT IS IMPROPER FORM. THE
QUESTION IS NOT BASED ON FACTS.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: LAST FRIDAY YOU TOLD US THAT YOU WERE TO PAY MR. JONES
AFTER THE CASE WAS OVER, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND THAT IS THE ARRANGEMENT YOU HAVE WITH HIM, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY HIM IN SMALL PORTIONS, AS YOU JUST
INDICATED A MOMENT AGO, CORRECT.
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. THAT IS NOT INCONSISTENT, YOUR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: YES, I DO, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, HOW MUCH ARE YOU GOING TO PAY HIM -- WELL, STRIKE
THAT. HOW MUCH DOES MR. JONES CHARGE PER HOUR?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THAT. MAY WE APPROACH? I THINK WE -
-
THE COURT: I HAVEN'T HEARD AN OBJECTION. OVERRULED.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: HOW MUCH DOES MR. JONES CHARGE PER HOUR?
MR. COCHRAN: ISN'T THAT PRIVILEGED, YOUR HONOR?
MS. HAMBURGER: YOUR HONOR --
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, WE WENT THROUGH THIS LAST WEEK. MR. JONES WAS
HERE AND I CONFERRED WITH HIM PRIOR TO EVEN DISCUSSING THE FEE
ARRANGEMENT, AND HE HAD NO OBJECTION AND THERE WAS A WAIVER, CLEARLY A
WAIVER IN THE RECORD ALREADY.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS A PRIVILEGED STATEMENT, IT SEEMS TO ME.
THE COURT: WAIT, WAIT, WAIT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS AS FAR AS MISS LOPEZ
IS CONCERNED AT THIS TIME. WE DO NEED TO INQUIRE, HOWEVER, INTO ATTORNEY-
CLIENT PRIVILEGE BEFORE WE BREAK FOR THE AFTERNOON. MISS LOPEZ, I'M GOING
TO EXCUSE YOU AT THIS TIME. WE ARE NOT COMPLETED WITH OUR QUESTIONS, BUT
WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK FOR LUNCH. I'M GOING TO ORDER YOU TO RETURN
AT 1:30. AND MISS HAMBURGER, WOULD YOU ESCORT YOUR CLIENT -- WHY DON'T
YOU WAIT FOR ONE MINUTE, BECAUSE WE NEED TO CHAT WITH YOU. MISS LOPEZ,
YOU ARE ORDERED TO COME BACK AT 1:30.
THE WITNESS: THANK YOU, SIR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS HAMBURGER, DO YOU WANT TO APPROACH, PLEASE.
(ROSA LOPEZ EXITS THE COURTROOM.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS HAMBURGER, DO YOU WANT TO ADDRESS THE COURT
ON THE ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS AN ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE
HERE?
MS. HAMBURGER: I DO, YOUR HONOR. I, OF COURSE, TOOK OVER ON SHORT
NOTICE FROM MR. JONES AND I HAVE NOT CONFERRED WITH HIM ON THIS
OSTENSIBLE WAIVER.
THE COURT: ISSUE.
MS. HAMBURGER: AND THEREFORE I BEG ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE UNTIL I
ASCERTAIN OTHERWISE, IF THERE IS AN OTHERWISE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WHY DON'T YOU THEN TAKE THE NOON HOUR TO CONTACT
MR. JONES, CONFER WITH HIM; HOWEVER, WE DID VISIT THIS ISSUE DURING THE
COURSE OF THE HEARING WHETHER OR NOT TO CONDUCT A 1335. MR. JONES WAS
PRESENT HERE IN THE COURTROOM. THERE WERE SIMILAR QUESTIONS ASKED
WITHOUT OBJECTION, SO THAT IS THE HISTORY OF THE CASE.
MR. COCHRAN: I RECALL THAT THERE WAS NOT A QUESTION OF THE AMOUNT OF
THE FEE, THOUGH.
THE COURT: THERE WAS NOT A QUESTION AS TO THE HOURLY RATE.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S RIGHT.
THE COURT: THERE WAS A QUESTION REGARDING THE FEE ARRANGEMENT.
MR. COCHRAN: BUT NOT THE AMOUNT, AND THAT IS -- I THOUGHT THAT HE SHOULD
CERTAINLY HAVE A RIGHT --
MS. HAMBURGER: YOUR HONOR, I SAID NOTHING ABOUT THE FEE ARRANGEMENT.
THAT IS WHY I WILL CONFER WITH MR. JONES.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WHY DON'T YOU CONFER WITH MR. JONES AND SEE IF THE
PRIVILEGE IS GOING TO BE ASSERTED AND WE WILL COME BACK AT 1:30.
MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR. I WOULD LIKE LEAVE OF THE COURT TO POINT OUT
THE PORTIONS IN THE TRANSCRIPT WHERE THIS WAS ALREADY BROUGHT OUT. THERE
HAS BEEN A WAIVER OF THIS ARGUMENT COMPLETELY.
THE COURT: WE WILL SEE AFTER MISS HAMBURGER COMES BACK. SHE MAY AGREE
THAT IT IS AN ISSUE THAT THEY DON'T WISH TO CONTEST, WHO KNOWS, BUT I WILL
HEAR THE ARGUMENT AT 1:30.
MS. CLARK: OKAY. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE WILL STAND IN RECESS UNTIL 1:30.
MS. HAMBURGER: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
(AT 12:00 P.M. THE NOON RECESS WAS TAKEN UNTIL 1:30 P.M. OF THE SAME DAY.)
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, MARCH 2, 1995 1:40 P.M.
APPEARANCES: (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.)
(JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)
(CHRISTINE OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)
OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. ALL THE PARTIES ARE
AGAIN PRESENT. I THINK WE'RE MISSING MISS CLARK. IS SHE AVAILABLE?
MS. LEWIS: SHE WILL BE DOWN A LITTLE BIT LATER, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN, ARE YOU PREPARED TO PROCEED WITHOUT MISS CLARK?
MR. DARDEN: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S HAVE IT QUIET IN THE COURTROOM, PLEASE. ALL
RIGHT. MISS HAMBURGER, DID YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DISCUSS THE
MATTERS WITH YOUR COCOUNSEL, MR. JONES?
MS. HAMBURGER: YES, YOUR HONOR. I DID EXACTLY AS YOU SAID. MR. JONES HAS
NO RECOLLECTION OF A WAIVER OF A PARTICULAR HOURLY CHARGE. HOWEVER, HE
HAS NO OBJECTIONS ABOUT ANY ARRANGEMENT THAT HE MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE
MADE WITH MISS LOPEZ.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. AND IF YOU CAN REMAIN IN THE
COURTROOM IN CASE THERE'S ANY OTHER ISSUE THAT COMES UP OR ANY OTHER
OBJECTION YOU WISH TO MAKE ON BEHALF OF MISS LOPEZ.
MS. HAMBURGER: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. ALL RIGHT. GOOD AFTERNOON
AGAIN, MISS LOPEZ. THANK YOU FOR COMING BACK. RECORD SHOULD REFLECT
THAT ALL PARTIES ARE PRESENT.
THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR.
ROSA MARIA LOPEZ, THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE LUNCH
RECESS, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER THROUGH THE SPANISH
INTERPRETER, AS FOLLOWS:
THE COURT: MISS LOPEZ, YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH. MR.
DARDEN, YOU MAY CONTINUE WITH YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION.
CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
BY MR. DARDEN:
Q: GOOD AFTERNOON, MISS LOPEZ.
A: GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR.
Q: MISS LOPEZ, HOW MUCH DOES YOUR ATTORNEY CHARGE YOU PER HOUR?
A: WE HAVEN'T SPOKEN ABOUT HOW MUCH HE'S GOING TO CHARGE ME. I HAVE
TOLD HIM THAT WHEN THE CASE IS OVER, WE'RE GOING TO TALK SO THAT I CAN PAY
HIM LITTLE BY LITTLE.
Q: SO AT THIS POINT THEN, THERE IS NO AGREEMENT AS TO AN HOURLY RATE,
CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND HAS HE CHARGED YOU A FLAT FEE?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT PAYING HIM COMPLETELY UNTIL
AFTER THE CASE IS OVER, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AS A MATTER OF FACT, THE TWO OF YOU ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU
OWE HIM, IF ANYTHING, AFTER THE CASE IS OVER, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. SO AT THIS POINT THEN, YOU BASICALLY HAVE A FREE LAWYER; IS THAT
CORRECT?
A: I DON'T THINK SO, SIR.
Q: WELL, HAVE YOU GIVEN HIM ANY MONEY? SI OR NO?
A: NO.
Q: OKAY. DID YOU SIGN ANY WRITTEN AGREEMENT?
THE INTERPRETER: EXCUSE ME. COULD WE GO BACK?
THE COURT: YES.
THE INTERPRETER: TWO QUESTIONS?
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: TWO QUESTIONS. BUT YOU HAVEN'T PAID HIM ANY MONEY YET;
IS THAT CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. YOU HAVEN'T GIVEN HIM ANY MONEY?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. HAVE YOU SIGNED ANY PAPERS?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU'RE PLANNING TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY TOMORROW, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN YOU'RE COMING BACK, CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: AND YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE EVER GOING TO COME BACK, DO YOU?
A: I CAN COME BACK WHENEVER I WANT TO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. BUT DO YOU PLAN TO COME BACK?
A: NOT FOR A SHORT TIME, SIR.
Q: WHAT'S A SHORT TIME?
A: MAYBE NOT -- MAYBE NOT UNTIL JANUARY, DECEMBER. WHENEVER I WISH TO
COME BACK, SIR. I'M FREE.
Q: OKAY. THIS MORNING WHEN I ASKED YOU SOME QUESTIONS, YOU COULD NOT
RECALL CERTAIN INCIDENTS AND CERTAIN TIMES, CORRECT?
A: THAT'S TRUE.
Q: OKAY. WELL, YOU HAD TROUBLE RECALLING TIMES AND EVENTS ON JUNE 13 AS
WELL, CORRECT?
A: I DON'T BELIEVE SO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WELL, YOU TOLD US ABOUT THE VOICES AND FOOTSTEPS AND PROWLERS
AND BARKING DOGS THAT YOU HEARD, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: COMPLEX, YOUR HONOR. COMPOUND.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, YOU TOLD US ABOUT THE VOICES YOU HEARD, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. BUT YOU DON'T REALLY REMEMBER WHAT TIME OF THE EVENING IT WAS
THAT YOU HEARD THOSE VOICES, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION, YOUR HONOR,
BECAUSE THERE WERE VOICES HEARD AT DIFFERENT TIMES AND DIFFERENT VOICES.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. WHY DON'T YOU REPHRASE THE QUESTION BECAUSE IT'S
VAGUE AS TO WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT TIME YOU HEARD ANY OF
THOSE VOICES, CORRECT?
A: IT DEPENDS ON WHICH VOICES YOU'RE REFERRING TO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WELL, YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY A REPORTER FROM KABC ON JUNE 13,
CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND HE ASKED YOU WHAT TIME IT WAS THAT YOU HEARD VOICES,
CORRECT?
A: I HAVEN'T SPOKEN TO ANY REPORTER, FEMALE CONNOTATION, SIR, REGARDING
VOICES OR ANYTHING.
Q: DID A REPORTER ASK YOU ON JUNE 13, 1994 WHETHER OR NOT YOU HEARD
VOICES?
A: SO MANY THINGS -- SO MANY THINGS ARE BEING ASKED OF ME, I DON'T
REMEMBER.
Q: YOU DON'T REMEMBER TELLING THE KABC REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD VOICES,
BUT THAT YOU DID NOT KNOW WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU HEARD THOSE
VOICES?
A: I HAVE NEVER TOLD ANY ONE OF THE REPORTERS THAT I HAVE HEARD VOICES, SIR.
Q: DID YOU TELL A REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD THE VOICES OF LITTLE BOYS
COMING FROM MR. SIMPSON'S HOME THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: DID YOU EVER TELL A REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD THE SOUNDS OF VOICES
COMING FROM MR. SIMPSON'S HOME THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12?
A: NO, SIR.
MR. DARDEN: MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: CERTAINLY.
THE COURT: HAVE YOU SHOWN THAT TO COUNSEL?
MR. DARDEN: I WAS JUST ABOUT TO DO THAT. CAN WE CUE UP A VIDEO FOR MR.
COCHRAN AND I --
THE COURT: CAN WE HAVE THE VIDEO ON THE MONITORS ON DEFENSE COUNSEL
AND THE COURT?
MR. COCHRAN: MAY WE SEE IT FIRST?
MR. DARDEN: THIS IS A VIDEO APPARENTLY AIRED ON JANUARY 3RD.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU OBJECT TO THE WITNESS SEEING IT?
MR. DARDEN: YES. MAY WE HAVE THE WITNESS STEP OUT BECAUSE THERE'S ALSO
AUDIO.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS HAMBURGER, WOULD YOU ESCORT YOUR CLIENT INTO
THE JURY ROOM, PLEASE, FOR A FEW MOMENTS WHILE WE VIEW THE VIDEOTAPE?
MR. COCHRAN: WHAT'S THE DATE OF THIS VIDEO?
THE COURT: I DON'T KNOW YET. WE'LL FIND OUT IN A -- THAT'S WHY WE'RE GOING
TO VIEW IT OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF THE WITNESS. ALL RIGHT. MISS LOPEZ, WE
NEED TO LOOK AT A VIDEOTAPE. I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO STEP BACK WITH YOUR
ATTORNEY INTO THE JURY ROOM, AND WE'LL BRING YOU OUT IN ABOUT FIVE OR 10
MINUTES.
THE WITNESS: OKAY.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, MA'AM.
(THE WITNESS EXITS THE COURTROOM.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THE WITNESS HAS
WITHDRAWN WITH HER COUNSEL FROM THE COURTROOM. MR. DARDEN, IS THIS
TAPE IN ENGLISH OR HAVE ANY SPANISH IN IT?
MR. DARDEN: IT IS IN ENGLISH, ALTHOUGH THERE ARE ONE OR TWO WORDS
SPOKEN IN SPANISH.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THEN I'LL ASK OUR SPANISH INTERPRETERS TO REMAIN IN
CASE THERE'S ANYTHING WE NEED INTERPRETED FOR THE RECORD. ALL RIGHT.
PROCEED.
(AT 1:45 P.M., A VIDEOTAPE WAS PLAYED.)
(AT 1:45 P.M., THE PLAYING OF THE VIDEOTAPE ENDED.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S SEE THAT ONE MORE TIME.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I DIDN'T HEAR WHAT YOU SAID.
THE COURT: I SAID I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT ONE MORE TIME.
THE INTERPRETER: YOUR HONOR, IS THERE ANY WAY WE COULD SEE THIS
MONITOR SO WE CAN WATCH OUT FOR ANYTHING?
THE COURT: THERE SHOULD BE A MONITOR RIGHT THERE. DO WE HAVE THAT ON THE
-- WE CAN PUT THAT ON THE LARGE SCREEN, MISS FITZPATRICK. CAN WE START THE
AUDIO FROM THE BEGINNING TOO?
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: SURE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
(AT 1:47 P.M., A VIDEOTAPE WAS PLAYED.)
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, SHE --
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. DARDEN, I TAKE IT YOU WANT TO CONFRONT MISS
LOPEZ WITH WHAT ASPECT, WHAT STATEMENT THERE?
MR. DARDEN: THAT SHE TOLD A REPORTER SHE HEARD VOICES. SHE JUST TOLD US
SHE NEVER TOLD THE REPORTER SHE HEARD VOICES.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I THOUGHT HE ALSO SAID SOMETHING ABOUT LITTLE
BOYS. AND I HEARD HER SAY BOYS, NOT VOICE.
UNKNOWN VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: RIGHT.
MR. DARDEN: WELL, I ASKED HER ABOUT VOICES AND BOY JUST TO MAKE SURE
THERE WAS NO AMBIGUITY.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THAT WAS ASKED BOTH WAY.
MR. COCHRAN: I THOUGHT HE SAID BOYS AT SOME POINT.
THE COURT: YES, HE DID. BUT THEN THE NEXT QUESTION WAS, "DID YOU EVER TELL
A REPORTER YOU HEARD VOICES?" ALL RIGHT. THE NEXT TIME I HEAR SOMETHING
OUT OF THE AUDIENCE, WE'RE GOING TO CLEAR THE AUDIENCE. THANK YOU.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I APPROACH THE REPORTER, JUDGE -- THE INTERPRETER?
(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD BETWEEN MR. COCHRAN AND THE INTERPRETER, NOT
REPORTED.)
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, MAY I --
MR. COCHRAN: -- INDICATE TO THE COURT, THE INTERPRETER CORRECTLY, QUITE
CORRECTLY HAS INDICATED TO ME THAT THE QUESTION SHE ASKED WAS, DID SHE
EVER SAY SHE HEARD THE VOICES OF LITTLE BOYS, IS WHAT SHE REMEMBERS. AND
SO THIS WOULD NOT BE IMPEACHING BECAUSE SHE SAID SHE HEARD VOICES AND
NOTHING ABOUT LITTLE -- ABOUT BOYS. I THINK THAT'S WHAT SHE INDICATED TO
ME.
THE COURT: WELL, COUNSEL, LET ME READ YOU THE RECORD.
MR. COCHRAN: OKAY.
THE COURT: IT'S: "QUESTION: DID YOU TELL A REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD THE
VOICES OF LITTLE BOYS COMING FROM MR. SIMPSON'S HOME THE NIGHT OF JUNE
THE 12TH? "ANSWER: NO, SIR. "QUESTION: DID YOU EVER TELL A REPORTER THAT YOU
HEARD THE SOUND OF VOICES COMING FROM MR. SIMPSON'S HOME THE NIGHT OF
JUNE 12TH? "ANSWER: NO, SIR." SO IT WAS ASKED BOTH WAYS.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
THE COURT: WHICH WAS MY RECOLLECTION. ALL RIGHT. ANYTHING ELSE? ALL
RIGHT. MRS. ROBERTSON, WOULD YOU GET MISS LOPEZ FOR US AGAIN.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THE ONLY OTHER THING I WOULD LIKE TO POINT
OUT --
THE COURT: YES, SIR.
MR. COCHRAN: IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IF THAT IS IMPEACHING, IT IS IMPEACHING ON
A COLLATERAL MATTER BECAUSE WHAT THIS DOES IS ACTUALLY REINFORCE WHAT
SHE SAID IN COURT HERE UNDER OATH, THAT SHE HEARD VOICES THAT NIGHT, LATE
IN THE NIGHT. THE OTHER PART WAS, SHE SAID, "I HEARD VOICES LATE IN THE NIGHT."
SO I'LL SUBMIT IT, YOUR HONOR, BUT I THINK IF THE COURT RECALLED THE
TESTIMONY, THAT'S ALSO THE TESTIMONY.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. IT IS AN INCONSISTENT STATEMENT THOUGH ABOUT
EVENTS OF JUNE THE 12TH.
MR. COCHRAN: WELL --
(THE WITNESS IS AGAIN PRESENT.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS LOPEZ, WOULD YOU TAKE THE WITNESS STAND AGAIN,
PLEASE. ALL RIGHT. MR. DARDEN, YOU MAY RESUME.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU A VIDEOTAPE, SOME
NEWS FOOTAGE.
MR. DARDEN: AND I WOULD LIKE THE VIDEOCASSETTE MARKED PEOPLE'S 89, YOUR
HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 89, VIDEOCASSETTE.
(PEO'S 89 FOR ID = VIDEO CASSETTE)
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: CAN YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE MONITOR, PLEASE?
(AT 1:50 P.M., PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 89, A VIDEOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: NOW, BEFORE YOU LEFT THE WITNESS STAND, YOU TOLD US
THAT YOU NEVER TOLD A REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD VOICES, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. BUT NOW YOU SEE YOURSELF THERE ON TELEVISION, RIGHT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU DID TELL A REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD VOICES, DIDN'T YOU?
A: NOISES, NOT VOICES, SIR.
Q: SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU SAID "NOISE" ON THE TAPE?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: BUT YOU DIDN'T SAY VOICE?
A: NO.
Q: OKAY. THE REPORTER ASKED YOU WHAT YOU SAW AND HEARD THAT DAY,
CORRECT?
A: WHAT HAD I HEARD.
Q: OKAY. HE ALSO ASKED YOU WHAT YOU SAW, DIDN'T HE?
A: I DON'T THINK I WAS ASKED WHAT I SAW.
Q: OKAY.
MR. DARDEN: CAN WE PLAY IT AGAIN, YOUR HONOR, ONE MORE TIME, PEOPLE'S 89?
MR. COCHRAN: HAS THAT BEEN MARKED, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: THAT'S PEOPLE'S 89.
THE COURT: AND DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THIS, MR. COCHRAN?
MR. COCHRAN: NO. I'VE NEVER BEEN GIVEN A COPY OF THIS. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME
I'VE EVER SEEN IT. MAY WE APPROACH IN REGARD TO THAT ALSO, YOUR HONOR,
WITH REGARD TO THAT?
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. DARDEN.
THE COURT: WE'RE AT THE SIDEBAR.
MR. COCHRAN: I WAS NEVER GIVEN A COPY OF THIS PARTICULAR TAPE. AND THE
ONLY REASON I WANTED TO COME UP HERE WAS, THEY ALWAYS OBJECT TO
EVERYTHING, SEEM TO BE SURPRISED. THIS SEEMS TO BE CUT. I DON'T KNOW. I'VE
NEVER SEEN THIS TAPE. SAME PROBLEMS. I ASSUME IT'S GOING TO BE USED FOR
IMPEACHMENT. I'VE NEVER SEEN THIS ONE. I GUESS IT'S IMPEACHING ABOUT
WHETHER SHE TALKED TO A REPORTER, BUT SHE'S BEEN CONSISTENT ABOUT
HEARING VOICES AND NOISES OR WHATEVER LATE IN THE NIGHT. SO I THINK -- BUT I
NEVER HAVE SEEN THIS BEFORE. I DON'T HAVE A COPY OF THIS. I NEVER HAD ANY OF
THIS. WE HAD SOME MAJOR -- MAJOR BATTLES OVER --
THE COURT: FOUNDATION.
MR. COCHRAN: CUTTING -- FOUNDATION. SPLICING -- CUTTING, SPLICING, THAT
SORT OF THING. SO I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT.
MR. DARDEN: THESE ARE HER OWN WORDS AND IT WAS ON T.V. TWO NIGHTS AGO.
SO AGAIN --
MR. DARDEN: COCOUNSEL POINTS OUT, THESE ARE HER OWN WORDS.
MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S NOT FOUNDATIONAL. I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE SHE MAY
HAVE SAID. THIS IS CUT. IT'S OBVIOUSLY CUT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT. SO WITHOUT
FOUNDATION, YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. AND I THINK IT'S THE
SAME ARGUMENT THEY MADE WITH REGARD TO THE VIDEO THAT WE USED WHERE
WE HAD TO NAME THE CAMERAMAN IF THE COURT RECALLS. SO I OBJECT TO THIS
ON FOUNDATIONAL GROUNDS. I THINK IT'S COLLATERAL IMPEACHMENT, BUT I
OBJECT ON FOUNDATIONAL GROUNDS.
THE COURT: WE DIDN'T ACTUALLY HAVE TO GET THE CAMERAMAN. I DID ALLOW
YOU TO LAY A FOUNDATION WITH THE WITNESSES WHO WERE THERE.
MR. COCHRAN: BUT YOU ASKED US TO GIVE THE CAMERAMAN TO THE
PROSECUTION, WHICH WE DID AS I RECALL.
MR. COCHRAN: AND I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT KABC.
MR. DARDEN: NOW, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU KNOW, WE ASKED KABC FOR THE
COMPLETE UNCUT VERSION OF THIS INTERVIEW, AND WE WERE TOLD YOU ASKED
THEM FOR THE SAME THING.
MR. COCHRAN: NOT OF THIS INTERVIEW.
MR. DARDEN: THAT'S WHAT I WAS TOLD.
MR. COCHRAN: YOU WERE TOLD WRONG. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WELL, JUST AS A MATTER OF COURTESY, I THINK COUNSEL IS
ENTITLED TO GET A COPY OF IT. SO --
MR. DARDEN: SURE.
THE COURT: AND YOU'LL PROVIDE THIS I'M SURE, MR. DARDEN, SOMETIME BY
TOMORROW?
MR. DARDEN: CERTAINLY BY 9:30 TOMORROW.
THE COURT: BUT I DID ALLOW -- MR. COCHRAN, ON YOUR OTHER POINT, I DID
ALLOW THE OFFICER TO TESTIFY, "YEAH, THAT'S ME. THAT'S THE CORONER'S
REPRESENTATIVE." I DID ALLOW THE WITNESS TO AUTHENTICATE THE TAPE FOR
FOUNDATIONAL REASONS. I AGREE WITH YOU, PERHAPS MR. DARDEN DIDN'T ASK
SOME OF THE FUNDAMENTAL FOUNDATIONAL QUESTIONS SUCH AS, "DO YOU
RECOGNIZE THE PERSON WHO WAS THERE," BUT IT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS WHAT WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT. IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL.
MR. COCHRAN: AND I WOULDN'T MAKE A BIG DEAL OVER SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
BUT THE PROBLEM I HAVE IS THAT I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE THERE IS.
THE COURT: I AGREE.
MR. COCHRAN: THIS IS NOT THE ENTIRE INTERVIEW. I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE
THERE IS.
MS. LEWIS: IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE ENTIRE --
MR. COCHRAN: COULD WE JUST HAVE ONE PERSON TALKING?
MR. DARDEN: SHE CAN TALK TO ME, MR. COCHRAN. A QUESTION WAS POSED AND
SHE GAVE AN ANSWER.
MR. COCHRAN: I'M JUST ASKING --
THE COURT: WELL, WE'RE HERE JUST AS A -- MY UNDERSTANDING OF OUR
DISCUSSION HERE, WE'RE JUST HERE TO DISCUSS PROFESSIONAL COURTESY, THAT
YOU WILL MAKE A COPY AVAILABLE TO MR. COCHRAN.
MR. DARDEN: HAVE YOU SEEN THE VIDEO OF MR. COCHRAN SIGNALING TO THE
WITNESS?
MR. COCHRAN: SIGNALLING WHAT WITNESS?
MR. DARDEN: IT'S ON EVERY NEWS STATION IN THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.
MR. COCHRAN: WHAT SIGNAL TO WHAT WITNESS? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT.
MS. CLARK: YOU WILL.
THE COURT: COUNSEL, AT THIS POINT, THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED. LET'S
PROCEED. THANK YOU.
MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO LOOK AT YOUR
MONITOR AGAIN AND PAY CAREFUL ATTENTION, OKAY, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE. I'M
GOING TO REPLAY THE VIDEOTAPE WE JUST PLAYED FOR YOU A MOMENT AGO.
(AT 1:57 P.M., PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 89, A VIDEOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)
(AT 1:58 P.M. THE PLAYING OF THE VIDEOTAPE ENDED.)
THE COURT: SOUNDS LIKE JOHN NORRIS.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: THE REPORTER ASKED YOU WHAT YOU SAW AND HEARD THAT
DAY, DIDN'T HE?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU NEVER TOLD HIM THAT YOU HEARD BARKING DOGS, DID YOU?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, JUST A MOMENT. THAT'S AN UNFAIR QUESTION. WAS
SHE ASKED THAT?
THE WITNESS: NO, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT THE POLICE, SIR. I DIDN'T HAVE TO
GIVE MY DECLARATION TO ANY LAYPERSON.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND YOU DIDN'T TELL THAT REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD
FOOTSTEPS, DID YOU?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: AND YOU DIDN'T TELL THAT REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD A PROWLER, DID YOU?
A: I NEVER SAID THAT HE WAS A PROWLER, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU DIDN'T TELL THE REPORTER THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO PARKED
ON ROCKINGHAM, DID YOU?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, SHE WAS NEVER ASKED THAT QUESTION, YOUR
HONOR. HOW COULD THAT -- I DON'T UNDERSTAND. THAT'S AN UNFAIR QUESTION,
YOUR HONOR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND YOU NEVER TOLD THAT REPORTER THAT YOU HAD SEEN THE
BRONCO THE NIGHT BEFORE, DID YOU?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: ALL YOU TOLD THE REPORTER WAS THAT YOU HEARD VOICES AND THAT YOU DID
NOT KNOW AT WHAT TIME IT WAS THAT YOU HEARD THOSE VOICES, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT'S NOT A FAIR QUESTION.
MR. COCHRAN: IT'S BEEN EDITED. WE DON'T KNOW --
THE COURT: WAIT, WAIT. SUSTAINED. THAT ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.
THERE'S NO DISCUSSION OF TIME ON THE TAPE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, WHEN YOU TOLD THE REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD
VOICES, DIDN'T YOU TELL HIM THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TIME IT WAS THAT
YOU HEARD THE VOICES?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: ALL YOU KNEW WAS THAT YOU HEARD THE VOICE -- THE VOICES VERY, VERY LATE,
CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION, "ALL YOU KNEW." SHE
KNEW A LOT MORE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: ALL YOU KNEW ABOUT THE TIMING OF THE VOICES IS THAT YOU
HEARD THEM VERY, VERY LATE, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TIME YOU HEARD THE VOICES THAT NIGHT, DO YOU?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: DO YOU KNOW THE TIME YOU HEARD THE VOICES?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. WHICH VOICES? IT'S VAGUE, YOUR HONOR,
WHAT VOICES WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE ONES THAT ARE ON THE TAPE.
THE WITNESS: IT DEPENDS ON WHICH ONES YOU'RE ASKING ME ABOUT, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. DO YOU KNOW THE TIME THAT YOU HEARD SOME OF THE
VOICES YOU HEARD THAT NIGHT?
A: UMM, AFTER 11:30 TO 12:00.
Q: OKAY. OTHER THAN THOSE VOICES, YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN YOU HEARD ANY
OTHER VOICE THAT YOU HEARD THAT NIGHT, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: NOW, YOU TOLD US DURING YOUR TESTIMONY EARLIER THAT YOU ONLY MET MR.
SIMPSON ONE TIME, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: BUT THAT WASN'T TRUE, WAS IT?
A: IT IS TRUE, SIR.
Q: WELL, ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOU'VE SPOKEN TO MR. SIMPSON -- WELL, STRIKE THAT.
ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOU HAVE SPOKEN TO MR. SIMPSON ON AT LEAST THREE OR
FOUR DIFFERENT OCCASIONS?
MR. COCHRAN: JUST A MOMENT. OBJECTION. THAT'S A DIFFERENT QUESTION. SHE
SAID MET MR. SIMPSON. NOW HE'S TALKING ABOUT SPEAKING. IT'S A DIFFERENT
QUESTION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOU HAD SPOKEN TO MR. SIMPSON ON
THREE OR FOUR DIFFERENT OCCASIONS?
A: NO, SIR. ONE TIME.
Q: DIDN'T YOU TELL THE REPORTER THAT YOU SPOKE TO ON THIS VIDEOTAPE THAT
YOU HAD SPOKEN TO MR. SIMPSON MANY, MANY TIMES?
A: THAT I HAVE SEEN HIM MANY TIMES? YES. BUT NOT THAT I HAVE TALKED TO HIM.
Q: OKAY.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: THE VOICES YOU HEARD AROUND 11:30 OR 12:00, WERE THOSE
THE LAST VOICES YOU HEARD THAT NIGHT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: WELL, WHEN YOU TESTIFIED THE OTHER DAY -- THIS IS AT PAGE 16524 -- YOU
TESTIFIED THAT YOU HEARD VOICES AROUND 12:30.
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THAT, YOUR HONOR. IT'S NOT INCONSISTENT.
THE COURT: EXCUSE ME, COUNSEL.
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THAT, THE FORM OF THAT LAST QUESTION, HEARD
VOICES AT 12:30. SHE DIDN'T SAY HOW LONG THE VOICES LASTED. THAT'S --
OBJECTION TO THE QUESTION. IT'S NOT IMPEACHING.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU TESTIFIED THE OTHER DAY YOU SAID YOU HEARD THE
VOICES AT 12:30, CORRECT?
A: UP UNTIL 12:30, SIR. THAT'S WHAT I SAID.
Q: OKAY. NOW, DID YOU GET THAT CUE FROM MR. COCHRAN'S OBJECTION HERE?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT'S ARGUMENTATIVE. THAT'S ARGUMENTATIVE.
THE WITNESS: HE HASN'T GIVEN ME ANY CUE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. DID YOU EVER SEE MR. COCHRAN WAIVE HIS HANDS LIKE
THIS BACK AND FORTH ACROSS HIS CHEST TODAY (INDICATING)?
A: NO, SIR.
THE COURT: I KNOW WE HAVE VIDEOTAPE, BUT DO YOU WANT TO DESCRIBE THE
GESTURE YOU JUST MADE FOR THE RECORD?
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU NEVER SAW MR. COCHRAN MAKE A MOTION LIKE THIS
(INDICATING) WITH HIS HANDS?
A: NO, SIR.
THE COURT: SORT OF A GESTURE SIMILAR TO AN EMPIRE INDICATING SAFE SEVERAL
TIMES.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID YOU EVER SEE MR. COCHRAN MAKE A GESTURE LIKE THIS
(INDICATING) DURING YOUR TESTIMONY?
A: NO, SIR.
THE COURT: INDICATING A THIRD BASE COACH SAYING SLIDE. THAT'S ABOUT THE
CLOSEST I CAN GET.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN THE REPORTER ASKED YOU WHAT YOU SAW AND HEARD,
YOU DIDN'T -- YOU DID NOT TELL HIM THAT YOU HEARD MR. SIMPSON SPEAKING TO
THE LIMOUSINE DRIVER, DID YOU?
A: SIR, I ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT HE WAS NOT THE POLICE FOR ME TO GIVE HIM MY
INFORMATION.
Q: I SHOWED YOU A DOCUMENT EARLIER THIS MORNING. IT'S A TWO-PAGE
DOCUMENT FROM WILLIAM PAVELIC TO ROBERT SHAPIRO AND IT'S DATED JULY 29.
MR. DARDEN: I BELIEVE THAT DOCUMENT HAS BEEN MARKED ALREADY, YOUR
HONOR. HAS IT BEEN?
THE COURT: 88.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: I'M GOING TO ASK THE INTERPRETER TO READ TO YOU THE FIRST
FOUR PARAGRAPHS OF THE NARRATIVE AFTER, "DEAR MR. SHAPIRO." THEN I WANT TO
ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THOSE PARAGRAPHS.
THE INTERPRETER: I'M SORRY. WHAT WAS YOUR LAST STATEMENT?
MR. DARDEN: I'M GOING TO ASK HER SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THE INFORMATION
CONTAINED --
THE COURT: CAN WE TAKE IT PARAGRAPH BY PARAGRAPH?
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, I INTEND TO.
THE COURT: WELL, HOW ABOUT IF WE HAVE HER READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH SO WE
DON'T HAVE A RETENTION PROBLEM GOING BACK AND FORTH.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHY DON'T YOU READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MADAM INTERPRETER.
(THE INTERPRETER COMPLIES.)
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: BEFORE I ASK YOU ABOUT THAT --
(THE INTERPRETER CONTINUES READING.)
THE COURT: IS THE PHONE NUMBER CHANGED NOW THAT'S IN THE FIRST
PARAGRAPH?
MR. DARDEN: PARDON?
THE COURT: THE PHONE NUMBER THAT'S IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH, HAS THAT BEEN
CHANGED OR --
MR. DARDEN: YES.
THE COURT: GO AHEAD AND READ THE PARAGRAPH.
(THE INTERPRETER COMPLIES.)
THE WITNESS: THAT IS CORRECT.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU INDICATED A MOMENT AGO THAT YOU DID NOT TELL THE
REPORTER EVERYTHING BECAUSE HE WAS NOT A POLICE OFFICER, CORRECT?
A: OF COURSE.
Q: HAD HE BEEN A POLICE OFFICER, YOU WOULD HAVE TOLD HIM EVERYTHING,
CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: YOU WERE AT THE SALINGER'S ON JUNE 28TH, CORRECT?
Q: OKAY. DID YOU SAY YES?
A: IF IT IS A WEEKDAY WHEN I'M SUPPOSED TO WORK, YES.
Q: OKAY. WELL, LET ME SHOW YOU A PHOTOGRAPH OF A MAN AND ASK YOU IF YOU
RECOGNIZE THIS MAN.
MR. DARDEN: I HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH ON AN 8-1/2 BY 10-INCH PAGE HERE, YOUR
HONOR. MAY IT BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 90?
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 90, NOW BEING DISPLAYED ON THE ELMO.
(PEO'S 90 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SEE THE MAN PICTURED IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
A: YES, SIR (IN ENGLISH).
Q: HE'S SOMEONE THAT YOU'VE SPOKEN TO BEFORE, ISN'T HE?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WELL, DIDN'T YOU SPEAK TO A POLICE DETECTIVE ON JUNE 28, 1994?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. YOU SPOKE TO DETECTIVE OTIS MARLOWE, CORRECT?
Q: YOU SPOKE TO THE MAN IN THE PHOTOGRAPH, DIDN'T YOU?
A: NO. I DON'T REMEMBER HIM.
Q: OKAY.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, FOR THE RECORD, THAT IS DETECTIVE OTIS MARLOWE.
HE IS RETIRED FROM THE LAPD AND HE IS NOW AN INVESTIGATOR WITH THE PUBLIC
DEFENDER'S OFFICE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU NEVER SPOKE TO THAT MAN?
Q: OKAY. WELL, WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE DETECTIVE THAT YOU SPOKE TO OTHER
THAN MARK FUHRMAN?
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR, THAT SHE
SPOKE TO SOME OTHER DETECTIVE.
THE COURT: NO. SHE INDICATED SHE DID IF IT WAS A WORKDAY ON JUNE 28TH.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHAT WAS THE NAME OF THE OTHER DETECTIVE THAT YOU
SPOKE TO?
A: MARK FURHMAN.
Q: OKAY. AND THERE WAS A SECOND ONE THAT YOU SPOKE TO ON JUNE 28TH,
CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR. ONLY ONE OF THEM CAME TO MY HOUSE.
Q: OKAY. DIDN'T YOU SPEAK TO A DETECTIVE ON JUNE 28TH WHILE THE DETECTIVES
WERE SEARCHING MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE?
A: WHEN DID YOU SAY? THE 28TH OF WHAT?
Q: JUNE 28TH, TUESDAY.
A: JUNE 28TH WHAT?
Q: TUESDAY, JUNE 28TH.
A: A DETECTIVE CAME ONLY ONCE, SIR, AND I NEVER SAW ANOTHER ONE.
Q: ISN'T IT TRUE THAT THE DETECTIVE PICTURED IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH ASKED YOU
IF YOU HAD HEARD OR SEEN ANYTHING UNUSUAL THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12TH?
A: NO, SIR (BEFORE INTERPRETATION).
MR. DARDEN: I NEED ONE MOMENT TO FIND THE DOCUMENT, YOUR HONOR. YOUR
HONOR, THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT THE WITNESS ANSWERED THE
QUESTION BEFORE THE INTERPRETER INTERPRETED THE QUESTION.
THE COURT: I THINK THE VIDEOTAPE WILL REFLECT THAT.
MR. DARDEN: CAN I HAVE ONE MOMENT?
MR. DARDEN: MAY I, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: PLEASE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU TOLD US THAT DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WENT TO THE
BACKYARD AT THE SALINGER'S HOME, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND DO YOU RECALL A DETECTIVE GOING TO THE BACKYARD SEVERAL
DAYS LATER?
A: THEY WENT AGAIN WITH THE LADY AND THEN THE LADY, MRS. SALINGER, LET
THEM GO.
Q: OKAY. AND THAT WAS ON JUNE 28, CORRECT?
A: I DON'T KNOW WHAT DATE IT WAS BECAUSE I DID NOT OPEN THE DOOR, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WELL, DIDN'T MRS. SALINGER INTRODUCE THE DETECTIVE TO YOU?
A: NO, SIR. WHY?
Q: WHY? BECAUSE YOU TOLD THE SALINGER'S YOU WERE HOME THE NIGHT OF JUNE
12TH, CORRECT?
A: THE LADY HASN'T TOLD ME ANYTHING.
Q: OKAY. WELL, DIDN'T DETECTIVE MARLOWE ASK YOU IF YOU RECALLED
ANYTHING UNUSUAL?
A: NO.
Q: HEARD ANY NOISE, SAW ANY PERSON AT OR AROUND THE AREA?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: SO YOU NEVER SPOKE TO THIS MAN BEFORE, CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: SO IF THIS DETECTIVE WERE TO TESTIFY THAT YOU DID, HE WOULD BE LYING,
CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.
ARGUMENTATIVE.
THE WITNESS: I DON'T REMEMBER HAVING SPOKEN TO HIM, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU DID NOT SPEAK TO HIM OR
ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU MAY HAVE SPOKEN TO HIM, BUT YOU DON'T REMEMBER?
A: I HAVE NOT -- I DID NOT TALK TO THAT GENTLEMAN.
Q: OKAY. WELL, DO YOU RECOGNIZE HIM AS THE DETECTIVE THAT SPOKE WITH MRS.
SALINGER?
A: NO, SIR. I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q: WELL, WHEN YOU SAY, "NO SIR, I DON'T REMEMBER", IS IT THAT YOU DON'T
REMEMBER OR IS IT THAT HE IS NOT THE DETECTIVE YOU SPOKE TO?
A: I -- I DID NOT TALK TO HIM, SIR.
Q: WELL, THE SALINGER'S WERE NOT AT HOME ON JUNE 12, CORRECT?
A: NO.
Q: OKAY. IN FACT, THE SALINGER'S WERE OUT OF THE COUNTRY UNTIL WHAT, JUNE
18?
A: ABOUT. I THINK THEY CAME BACK ON THE 17TH.
Q: OKAY. NOW, THEY WERE IN BRITAIN, CORRECT?
A: I DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY LEFT TO. I THINK IT WAS BRITAIN.
Q: OKAY. WELL, YOU TELEPHONED THEM IN BRITAIN, DIDN'T YOU?
A: I CALLED THEM. I CALL THEM WHENEVER THERE'S A PROBLEM AT HOME, BUT THAT
TIME, I DIDN'T CALL THEM THAT WEEK.
Q: OKAY. YOU DIDN'T CALL THE SALINGER'S BETWEEN JUNE 12 AND JUNE 16?
Q: WELL, WERE YOU THE ONLY ONE STAYING IN THE HOUSE DURING THAT TIME
PERIOD?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. SO IF SOMEONE TELEPHONED THE SALINGER'S FROM THE SALINGER'S
HOME DURING THAT TIME PERIOD, THAT PERSON WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE BEEN
YOU?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT DOESN'T FOLLOW -- THAT DOESN'T
NECESSARILY FOLLOW THE QUESTION. YOU DON'T HAVE TO LIVE THERE TO USE THE
PHONE. THAT QUESTION --
THE COURT: YEAH. WHY DON'T YOU REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
MR. DARDEN: YOU KNOW, SPEAKING OBJECTIONS --
THE COURT: YES, THAT'S TRUE. FOUNDATION.
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. FOUNDATION.
THE COURT: THANK YOU.
MR. DARDEN: IS THERE AN EXTRA MICROPHONE FOR MR. COCHRAN, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: I'M RELUCTANT TO PUT A MICROPHONE ON COUNSEL TABLE.
MR. DARDEN: WELL, IF OBJECTIONS ARE BEING MADE AND THERE'S INTERRUPTIONS
IN THE TESTIMONY, THE JURY OUGHT TO HEAR IT. AND GIVEN MR. COCHRAN'S
PROPENSITY FOR MAKING SPEAKING OBJECTIONS WHICH HAVE A TENDENCY OF
THEM BEING REPEATED BY THE WITNESS --
THE COURT: I'LL NOTE THAT. THANK YOU. I'LL NOTE THAT. PROCEED.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID ANYONE ELSE STAY IN THE SALINGER HOME DURING JUNE 12
THROUGH JUNE 16?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: DID YOU ALLOW ANYONE ENTRY INTO THE SALINGER HOME BETWEEN JUNE 12
AND JUNE 16?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU HAD A TELEPHONE IN YOUR ROOM, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU HAD YOUR OWN TELEPHONE NUMBER, CORRECT?
A: NOT MINE. THE LADY'S.
Q: OKAY. WELL, YOUR PHONE NUMBER WAS 472-09 --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. IS THAT THE SAME PHONE NUMBER, YOUR HONOR? IS
THAT THE SAME PHONE NUMBER NOW, YOUR HONOR? PERHAPS WE SHOULD -- IF IT'S
STILL THE SAME --
THE COURT: NO, I DON'T BELIEVE SO.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WAS THAT THE PHONE NUMBER, 472-0900?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO REFLECT CAREFULLY, PLEASE. DO YOU
RECALL CALLING THE SALINGER'S IN ENGLAND?
A: I'VE TOLD YOU THAT I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.
Q: OKAY. SO WAS IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT YOU DID NOT CALL THE SALINGER'S?
Q: OKAY. WELL, HAD YOU TELEPHONED THE SALINGER'S DURING THAT TIME PERIOD?
Q: OKAY. WELL, YOU WOULD ONLY CALL THEM IN EUROPE IF THERE WAS SOMETHING
IMPORTANT TO TELL THEM, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND SO IF YOU CALLED THEM IN ENGLAND DURING THAT TIME PERIOD,
YOU WOULD HAVE TOLD THEM THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO AND HEARD THE NOISES
NEXT-DOOR; IS THAT CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SPECULATION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, DO YOU CONSIDER THE FACT THAT YOU HEARD THESE
VOICES AND SAW THE BRONCO IMPORTANT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SO IF YOU FAILED TO TELL THAT INFORMATION OR GIVE THAT
INFORMATION TO THE SALINGER'S, THAT WOULD MEAN THAT YOU DID NOT TELL
THEM SOMETHING YOU CONSIDERED IMPORTANT, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT'S
ARGUMENTATIVE.
MR. COCHRAN: IT'S ARGUMENTATIVE, SPECULATIVE, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED. I SAID SUSTAINED.
MR. DARDEN: WELL, SHE JUST SAID SHE CONSIDERED THE INFORMATION
IMPORTANT, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: I KNOW. SHE DID. I AGREE, BUT THE WAY THE QUESTION IS STATED, IT'S
ARGUMENTATIVE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. WELL, DID YOU EVER TELL THE SALINGER'S THAT YOU SAW
THE BRONCO PARKED ON ROCKINGHAM?
A: OVER THE PHONE OR HOW?
Q: WELL, HOW ABOUT OVER THE PHONE FIRST?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU DIDN'T TELL THEM THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO DURING THE
MONTH OF JULY OR AUGUST OR SEPTEMBER OF 1994 EITHER, DID YOU?
A: OVER THE PHONE, SIR?
Q: OVER THE PHONE OR IN PERSON.
A: NO, SIR.
Q: YOU DIDN'T TELL THE SALINGER'S THAT YOU SAW THAT BRONCO AT ALL AT ANY
TIME DURING 1994, DID YOU?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF I TOLD THE LADY OR NOT, SIR.
Q: OKAY. ISN'T IT TRUE THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU MENTIONED THE BRONCO TO THE
SALINGER'S WAS AFTER YOU HEARD YOUR NAME MENTIONED ON TELEVISION?
A: I HAD ALREADY TOLD THEM THAT I HAD HEARD VOICES AND STEPS ON THE OTHER
SIDE ALSO.
Q: WHEN DID YOU TELL THEM THAT?
Q: OKAY. IT WAS SOMETIME IN 1995, WASN'T IT?
Q: ARE YOU TRYING TO AVOID GIVING ME A DIRECT RESPONSE, MISS LOPEZ?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. IT'S ARGUMENTATIVE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU TESTIFIED THE OTHER DAY, YOU REMEMBERED WHAT
HAPPENED AT 9:45 ON JUNE 12, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU REMEMBERED WHAT HAPPENED AT 11:00 P.M., DIDN'T YOU?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: BUT TODAY, YOU'VE TOLD US THAT YOU CAN NOT REMEMBER EVENTS OR TIMES
ON MORE THAN 40 OCCASIONS, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. IT'S ARGUMENTATIVE,
YOUR HONOR.
MR. COCHRAN: WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THAT, JUDGE? THAT'S THE
PART I'M OBJECTING TO.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: CORRECT? CORRECT?
THE INTERPRETER: REPEAT THE QUESTION, PLEASE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: BUT YOU TOLD US TODAY THAT YOU COULD NOT REMEMBER OR
RECALL CERTAIN EVENTS OR TIMES OR LOCATIONS MORE THAN 40 TIMES TODAY.
A: SIR, I COULD NOT GIVE TESTIMONY TO MRS. SALINGER BECAUSE IT IS A
DANGEROUS CASE.
Q: SO YOU DIDN'T TELL THE SALINGER'S ANYTHING ABOUT SEEING THE BRONCO OR
HEARING VOICES, CORRECT?
A: I TOLD THEM YEAH -- I TOLD THEM YES, THAT I HAD HEARD VOICES.
Q: BUT YOU TOLD THEM AFTER YOU HEARD YOUR NAME ON TELEVISION, CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR. I TOLD THEM A LITTLE BEFORE THAT.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU HEARD YOUR NAME ON TELEVISION THE LAST WEEK OF
JANUARY 1995, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. SO YOU DIDN'T TELL THEM AT ALL ABOUT THAT DURING THE YEAR 1994,
CORRECT? CORRECT?
Q: WELL, YOU JUST TOLD US THAT IT WAS AFTER OR RIGHT BEFORE YOU HEARD
YOUR NAME ON TELEVISION, RIGHT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. MISSTATES THE STATEMENT; "NO, SIR, I TOLD THEM A
LITTLE BEFORE THAT." MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.
MR. DARDEN: I'LL WITHDRAW THE QUESTION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID ANYONE LIVE IN THE SALINGER HOME OTHER THAN
YOURSELF AND MR. AND MRS. SALINGER?
A: NO. JUST ME.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU WOULD SEE THE SALINGER'S ALMOST EVERY DAY, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: AT WHAT POINT, YOUR HONOR? VAGUE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. YOU SAW THEM IN THE MORNING?
A: OF COURSE I DID. I HAVE TO SERVE THEM THEIR BREAKFAST, SIR.
Q: OKAY. YOU SAW THEM IN THE EVENING?
A: YES, SIR. I SERVED THEM LUNCH, SIR.
Q: AND THERE WERE OCCASIONS WHEN YOU AND THE SALINGER'S DISCUSSED THE
CHARGES PENDING AGAINST MR. SIMPSON, CORRECT?
A: NOT THAT I CAN REMEMBER, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: THERE WAS NEVER ANY DISCUSSION IN THE SALINGER HOME
ABOUT THE O.J. SIMPSON MURDER CASE?
MR. COCHRAN: ONCE AGAIN, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION, YOUR
HONOR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: CAN YOU GIVE ME THE FIRST NAMES OF YOUR THREE CLOSEST
FRIENDS?
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT. MAY WE APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?
MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S BEYOND THE SCOPE. I DON'T -- MAY WE APPROACH?
THE COURT: WE'RE OVER HERE AT SIDEBAR.
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THAT. THIS IS POSSIBLE HARASSMENT. THEY'VE ALSO
BEEN FOLLOWING HER APPARENTLY THREE CLOSEST FRIENDS. THAT'S -- I KNOW THE
COURT HAS ALLOWED WIDE LATITUDE. WHAT'S THE RELEVANCE OF THAT? WHAT'S
THE PROOF?
MR. DARDEN: I ONLY ASKED FOR FIRST NAMES FIRST OF ALL. SECOND OF ALL, YOU
KNOW, WE ARE HAVING A CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION. WE'RE HAVING A
CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION AS THIS WITNESS IS ABOUT TO LEAVE, RIGHT?
OTHERWISE, SHE WOULD HAVE FILED THE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FORMS,
RIGHT? SO I DON'T KNOW WHERE SHE'S GOING TO BE WHEN THE TIME COMES. AND
THE COURT PROMISED WIDE LATITUDE IN CROSS-EXAMINATION. I'VE NEVER HAD A
CHANCE TO SPEAK TO HER DESPITE MANY, MANY REQUESTS THAT WERE NEVER
COMMUNICATED TO THE WITNESS.
MR. COCHRAN: SHE MAY WANT TO TALK TO HER LAWYER. SHE MAY WANT TO
RESPOND TO THAT.
MR. DARDEN: I THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE I BE ALLOWED TO ASK HER IF SHE TOLD
HER THREE CLOSEST FRIENDS WHO MAY END UP BEING REBUTTAL WITNESSES IN THE
EVENT THAT THIS TAPE IS SHOWN TO THE JURY. WHAT ELSE CAN I DO? I HAVEN'T HAD
A CHANCE TO TALK TO HER.
MR. COCHRAN: THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS FOR THAT QUESTION.
FURTHERMORE, LET ME JUST STATE FOR THE RECORD, I'M GLAD WE'RE UP HERE.
OTHERWISE, I WOULD HAVE HAD TO WAIT FOR A BREAK. AND THIS IS PREPOSTEROUS.
IT SHOWS HOW DESPERATE THEY ARE WITH REGARD TO THIS. YOUR HONOR, ON
SATURDAY, CHRIS DARDEN DID IN FACT CALL ME. I SAID, "MR. DARDEN, I'M NOT HER
LAWYER. I WILL PUT CARL JONES IN TOUCH WITH YOU." I GOT OFF THE PHONE, I
CALLED CHRIS -- I CALLED CARL JONES, TOLD HIM TO CALL CHRIS DARDEN. AT
LUNCH TIME, MR. JONES TOLD ME HE CALLED, LEFT WORD ON HIS MACHINE, SAID,
"LOOK, SHE DOESN'T WANT TO TALK TO YOU OR MARCIA CLARK." AND I'M SURE
CHRIS HAS A PHONE MESSAGE TO THAT EFFECT. BUT THIS IS, YOUR HONOR,
PREPOSTEROUS, WAY BEYOND ANY WIDE LATITUDE THAT YOU COULD GIVE. I THINK
THIS IS HARASSMENT, YOUR HONOR. THIS LADY IS ABOUT TO GO TO EL SALVADOR,
AND ASKING HER WHO HER THREE BEST FRIENDS ARE, WHAT TYPE OF MESSAGE ARE
WE GOING TO SEND? THIS IS PREPOSTEROUS. IF THE COURT WANTS TO ASCERTAIN
THAT INFORMATION, I THINK THAT'S ONE THING, BUT NOT IN THIS SETTING.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WELL, I THINK WHAT MR. DARDEN IS GOING TO ASK IS,
"WHO ARE YOUR BEST -- THE FIRST NAMES OF YOUR THREE BEST FRIENDS? HAVE
YOU TOLD ANY OF THESE PERSONS THIS INFORMATION? WHY OR WHY NOT?" I
THINK THAT'S WHERE IT'S GOING. I SUSPECT THAT'S WHERE IT'S GOING. AM I
CORRECT?
MR. DARDEN: THAT'S CORRECT. AND GIVEN THE WITNESS' PRIOR INCONSISTENT
STATEMENTS AND INABILITY TO RECALL --
THE COURT: LET ME -- EXCUSE ME, MR. DARDEN. FORGIVE ME FOR INTERRUPTING
YOU. YOU'RE JUST GOING TO ASK FOR THE FIRST NAMES, "DID YOU TELL SO AND SO
AND SO AND SO"?
MR. DARDEN: BASICALLY, YES.
THE COURT: LET'S PROCEED.
MR. COCHRAN: IS THAT ALL, YOUR HONOR?
MS. CLARK: MAY I ADDRESS THE COURT ON A SEPARATE ISSUE? I WAS UPSTAIRS
LISTENING TO THE TELEVISION FOR A BRIEF TIME UNTIL I COULD GET DOWN, AND
WHAT BECAME VERY CLEAR TO ME IS THAT MR. COCHRAN'S OBJECTIONS, WHICH
ARE BASICALLY COACHING SESSIONS, CANNOT REALLY AUDIBLY BE HEARD. IF WE
WERE BEFORE -- THE PURPOSE OF VIDEOTAPING A CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION IS
TO RECREATE THE SITUATION AS CLOSE AS IS POSSIBLE TO WHAT THE JURY WOULD
SEE IN HERE. IF THE JURY WERE PRESENT TO SEE AND HEAR HIS BEHAVIOR WITH
RESPECT TO THESE COACHING SESSIONS THAT HE'S GIVEN TO THE WITNESS, THEY
WOULD BE VERY WELL AWARE OF THE FACT THAT SHE'S BEING TOLD WHAT TO SAY,
HOW TO SAY IT. WHAT WE'RE BEING DEPRIVED OF HERE IS THE ABILITY OF THE JURY
TO TAKE THAT INTO ACCOUNT TO EVALUATE HER CREDIBILITY, WHICH IS VERY
IMPORTANT, WHICH IS WHY I ASK THE COURT TO ALLOW A MICROPHONE.
MR. COCHRAN: MAY I RESPOND TO THAT? WHEN I OBJECT, I'M OBJECTING IN
ENGLISH AND IT'S NOT BEING INTERPRETED TO THE WITNESS. AND AS SOON AS WE
TAKE A BREAK, YOU'LL UNDERSTAND. THIS STUFF ABOUT TALKING, SIGNALLING, I
HAVE NEVER SIGNALLED A WITNESS IN MY LIFE AND I WOULD NEVER DO THAT. I'LL
CALL ONE OF YOUR STAFF OUT TO CLEAR UP EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. THAT'S
ABSOLUTELY PREPOSTEROUS. THESE PEOPLE ARE DESPERATE. I DON'T -- IF I GIVE
SPEAKING OBJECTIONS, YOUR HONOR, THIS LADY IS SPEAKING IN SPANISH. IF I'M
REALLY TRYING TO COACH HER, WHY WOULD I BOTHER TO OBJECT TO THEIR
QUESTION?
THE COURT: MRS. CLARK, LET ME JUST MAKE AN OBSERVATION. YOU KNOW, THE
RECORD FOR CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION IS ACTUALLY THE COURT REPORTER'S
TRANSCRIPT, AND THE FACT WE HAVE A VIDEO IS SORT OF A BACKUP TO THAT. THE
OBJECTIONS ARE RECORDED IN THE RECORD, AND IF IT'S RELEVANT AT SOME POINT
IN TIME, WE HAVE IT MEMORIALIZED.
MS. CLARK: OKAY. AND SINCE WE ARE SHOWING THE VIDEOTAPE, HER ABILITY TO
UNDERSTAND IS GOING TO BE VERY IMPORTANT AS WELL AS HER ABILITY TO
UNDERSTAND MR. COCHRAN.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK, I'VE GOT A REAL RELUCTANCE PUTTING LIVE
MICROPHONES ON COUNSEL TABLE ON EITHER SIDE. I REALLY DO. I DON'T TRUST
THESE PEOPLE. I MEAN WE SAW WHAT HAPPENED AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING
AND I --
MS. CLARK: THAT'S RIGHT. IT'S A PROBLEM.
THE COURT: IT'S A PROBLEM. SO WE HAVE THE COURT REPORTER'S RECORD WHICH
IS THE VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT.
MS. CLARK: SPEAK A LITTLE LOUDER, MR. COCHRAN.
MR. COCHRAN: I WILL OBJECT TO ALL THESE OBJECTIONABLE QUESTIONS.
THE COURT: I'M GOING TO ASK -- COUNSEL, THE PROCEDURE WILL BE, VOICE YOUR
OBJECTION, THEN I'LL SAY, STATE YOUR GROUNDS, YOUR LEGAL GROUNDS. BUT ALL I
WANT OUT OF YOU IS "OBJECTION."
MR. DARDEN: BEFORE WE GO BACK, APPARENTLY THE ELMO WITH ALL OF THIS
STUFF HAS BLOWN A FUSE.
THE COURT: I WAS WONDERING WHEN THAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: DEPUTY MAGNERA HAS CALLED THE ELECTRICIAN. WE HAVE NO
POWER TO RUN ANYTHING RIGHT NOW.
THE COURT: WE OVERLOADED THE CIRCUIT, HUH?
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: EVERYTHING WENT OUT AT ONCE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. HOLD ON. MISS FITZPATRICK, ARE WE HAVING A PROBLEM?
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: EVERYTHING IS DOWN.
THE COURT: THIS HAD TO HAPPEN SOONER OR LATER. LET'S PROCEED. WE WILL JUST
HAVE TO DO IT THE OLD FASHION WAY.
OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. SHULMAN, DO WE STILL HAVE POWER ON THE CAMERA?
MR. SHULMAN: YES, WE DO.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. COUNSEL, GIVEN THE NATURE OF OUR PROCEEDING, THE
COURT ELECTS TO PROCEED IN LIGHT OF THE WHIZ BANG SYSTEM POWER SHORTAGE
AND WE'LL JUST HAVE TO DO IT THE OLD FASHION WAY. ALL RIGHT. PROCEED. DO
YOU HAVE ANY OTHER EXHIBITS THAT ARE ELECTRONICALLY GENERATED?
MR. DARDEN: WE CAN KEEP GOING.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, PLEASE GIVE ME THE FIRST NAMES OF YOUR THREE
CLOSEST FRIENDS.
A: VICTORIA GONZALEZ.
MR. COCHRAN: FIRST NAME.
THE COURT: YOU JUST NEED TO GIVE US THE FIRST NAME.
THE WITNESS: VICTORIA, ALMA AND CORALIA.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. YOU TOLD US THE OTHER DAY THAT YOU WERE EXPECTING
A POLICEMAN TO COME TO THE HOUSE AND ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. AND WERE YOU CONCERNED AFTER SO MUCH TIME WENT BY AND NO
POLICE OFFICER CAME?
A: NO. WHY SHOULD I?
Q: WELL, YOU KNEW THE INFORMATION YOU HAD WAS IMPORTANT, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT. ASSUMES FACTS
NOT IN EVIDENCE.
THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, A MOMENT AGO, YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU THOUGHT
THAT THE INFORMATION YOU HAD WAS IMPORTANT, DIDN'T YOU?
A: NOT IMPORTANT. DANGEROUS MAYBE.
Q: WELL, YOU JUST TESTIFIED A FEW MOMENTS AGO THAT YOU THOUGHT THE
INFORMATION YOU HAD WAS IMPORTANT; ISN'T THAT TRUE?
A: IF YOU SAY SO.
Q: I'M ASKING YOU, MISS LOPEZ, DID YOU CONSIDER THE INFORMATION
IMPORTANT?
A: NOT TO ME.
Q: OKAY. SO WHEN YOU TOLD US A FEW MINUTES AGO THAT THE INFORMATION YOU
KNEW AND HAD WAS IMPORTANT, YOU WEREN'T BEING HONEST WITH US?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT'S ARGUMENTATIVE. OBJECTION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, WHY DID YOU TELL US IT WAS IMPORTANT IF IN FACT YOU
DID NOT BELIEVE IT TO BE IMPORTANT?
A: BECAUSE NO ONE EVER CAME TO ASK ME ABOUT IT. NO ONE EVER WORRIED
ABOUT IT BEFORE.
Q: WELL, AFTER THE MURDERS, LOTS AND LOTS OF PEOPLE CAME BY THE SIMPSON
HOME, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS OF CARS BEGAN DRIVING UP AND DOWN
ROCKINGHAM AND ASHFORD?
A: THAT'S TRUE.
Q: LOTS AND LOTS OF REPORTERS CAMPED OUT AT THE ROCKINGHAM
INTERSECTION?
A: YES. THAT'S TRUE.
Q: AND THE POLICE WERE CALLED IN TO HANDLE THE TRAFFIC, CORRECT?
A: THAT'S TRUE.
Q: AND THERE WERE POLICEMEN SURROUNDING MR. SIMPSON'S HOME DURING THAT
FIRST WEEK AFTER THE MURDERS, CORRECT?
A: THAT'S TRUE.
Q: AND THOSE POLICEMEN WERE IN UNIFORM?
A: SOME OF THEM AND OTHERS WEREN'T.
Q: AND THOSE POLICEMEN ALL HAD BADGES, CORRECT?
A: I THINK SO.
Q: BUT YOU NEVER STOPPED ONE AND TOLD HIM OR HER ABOUT THE INFORMATION
THAT YOU HAD, DID YOU?
A: WHY?
Q: BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT.
A: IF NO ONE COMES TO ME, I'M NOT GOING TO GO LOOKING FOR SOMEBODY.
Q: YOU SAID THAT YOU NEVER GO LOOKING FOR ANYBODY. IS THAT WHAT YOU
SAID?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE. OBJECTION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, WHAT DID YOU SAY?
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE WITNESS: THAT I AM NOT GOING TO GO LOOKING FOR THE POLICE TO INFORM
THEM.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU ONLY HAD TO GO RIGHT OUTSIDE YOUR OWN FRONT DOOR,
CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: BUT YOU DID GO LOOKING FOR MICHELLE, DIDN'T YOU?
A: I DIDN'T GO LOOK FOR MICHELLE, SIR.
(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY
AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I'VE NEVER SEEN THAT PHONE BILL BEFORE.
THE COURT: IS THAT AN OBJECTION AT THIS POINT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. YES, SIR. I DON'T HAVE A COPY.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY. WE SDT'D THE PHONE BILLS FROM GTE AND THEY TOLD US
THEY WERE FAXING THEM TO THE COURT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET ME SEE COUNSEL AT SIDEBAR.
MR. DARDEN: THERE'S MULTIPLE PHONE CALLS TO SOMEPLACE IN ENGLAND.
MR. COCHRAN: ONE MINUTE.
THE COURT: THAT MEANS ECONOMY. LET ME JUST MAKE A QUICK PHOTOCOPY.
MR. COCHRAN: IF THESE ARE EXHIBITS, YOUR HONOR, CAN WE GET COPIES OF
THEM? I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING.
THE COURT: I WAS ABOUT TO SAY, AS A MATTER OF COURTESY, WHEN YOU BRING
SOMETHING, YOU JUST OUGHT TO HAVE PHOTOCOPIES. HOLD ON. LET'S GET THE
COPIES SO WE ALL HAVE IT IN FRONT OF US.
MR. SHAPIRO: WAS THAT A SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM TO THE COURT?
MR. DARDEN: IT IS A SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM TO THE COURT. THE COURT HAS
THEM.
MR. SHAPIRO: WHO RELEASED IT?
THE COURT: IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE POSSESSION OF THE COURT.
MR. SHAPIRO: UNRELEASED. SO HOW DID IT GET RELEASED?
MR. DARDEN: I ASKED MR. SALINGER FOR THESE. THOSE ARE NOT CERTIFIED
RECORDS.
THE COURT: WE HAD TO GET A COMPUTER PROGRAM JUST TO KEEP TRACK OF ALL
OUR SDT'S.
MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, I WANT TO FINISH TODAY. CAN WE GET BACK TO THIS
WITNESS? CAN WE GET BACK TO THE WITNESS?
THE COURT: NO. AS A MATTER OF COURTESY, I THINK COUNSEL OUGHT TO HAVE
COPIES.
MR. DARDEN: WHY DON'T I GO ON TO SOMETHING ELSE?
THE COURT: WE HAD A FAILURE OF COMMUNICATION. MARCIA, YOU CAN HAVE
THAT BACK.
MR. COCHRAN: CAN WE GET WHATEVER EXHIBITS HE GETS AS A MATTER OF
COURTESY, ANY OF THIS IN DISCOVERY? AND IF IT'S FOR IMPEACHMENT -- IF THE
COURT RULES WE ARE NOT ENTITLED TO IT, THAT'S ONE THING. BUT I WOULD LIKE
TO HAVE THE COURT GIVE US SOME SENSE OF THIS. THIS IS OUT OF ORDER.
THE COURT: LAST PAGE. LAST PAGE. OH, OKAY. WHERE IS MR. DARDEN? ARE YOU
GOING TO CARRY THE BALL ON THE OBJECTION?
MS. CLARK: WHAT OBJECTION WAS THAT? WHICH ONE? WHEN?
THE COURT: WHAT IS YOUR OBJECTION, MR. COCHRAN?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, WITH REGARD TO THIS PHONE BILL, I HAD SOME
CONCERN THAT THESE EXHIBITS KEEP POPPING UP. WE'VE NEVER SEEN THEM, NEVER
BEEN GIVEN A COPY, NEVER GIVEN ANYTHING, AND I THINK WE'RE ENTITLED TO
THESE THINGS PROBABLY BY DISCOVERY, BUT CERTAINLY BY MATTER OF COURTESY
OF GETTING THESE THINGS. WE ARE SEEING THEM AT THE VERY LAST SECOND. WE
DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT. WE ASKED CHRIS FOR WHATEVER INFORMATION
HE HAD THIS MORNING. WE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE FORTHCOMING. IT HAS NOT
BEEN FORTHCOMING UNTIL WE DO THIS AFTER EACH EXHIBIT.
THE COURT: WHAT'S YOUR SPECIFIC OBJECTION REGARDING THIS PHONE BILL?
MR. COCHRAN: I THINK THE COURT SHOULD TAKE A LOOK AT THIS. I'M NOT AN
EXPERT IN INTERPRETING PHONE 'BILLS, BUT TALKING ABOUT CALL 13, 12:54, IT SAYS,
"STANDARD, ONE MINUTE," AND I DON'T KNOW IF SOMEBODY CALLED SOMEONE OR
IF IT WAS COMPLETED. IT'S NOT CLEAR. THEN IT SAYS 2:05, "DISC," WHICH COULD BE
DISCONNECTED ONE MINUTE. THOSE ARE THE ONLY TWO CALLS ON THE 13TH, EACH
ONE MINUTE. SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS AND I'VE NEVER SEEN IT
BEFORE. BUT THAT'S JUST MY FIRST READING AND I WOULD LIKE AN OFFER OF
PROOF.
MR. DARDEN: WELL, THIS IS IMPEACHMENT EVIDENCE OBVIOUSLY. BUT BEYOND
THAT SIMPLE ISSUE, YOU KNOW, IF SHE CALLED THE SALINGER'S, I WANT TO KNOW
WHY. IF SHE'S NOT CALLING THEM TO TELL THEM ABOUT THE SIMPSON CASE, WHICH
APPARENTLY SHE IS NOT, YOU KNOW, FINE. WHAT IF SHE GETS UP HERE AND SAYS, "I
TRIED TO CALL THE SALINGER'S FOUR TIMES TO TELL THEM ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED,
BUT I COULDN'T GET IN CONTACT WITH THEM"? THIS IS CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION.
I'M TRYING TO COVER --
THE COURT: MR. DARDEN, ARE THE SALINGER'S GOING TO COME IN AND SAY, "YEAH,
SHE CALLED AND TOLD US ABOUT THIS"?
MR. DARDEN: THEY ARE GOING TO SAY THEY DIDN'T HEAR ANY MENTION ABOUT IT
UNTIL THEY WATCHED MR. COCHRAN'S HISTORICAL OPENING STATEMENT.
MR. COCHRAN: WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF THIS, YOUR HONOR? I FAIL TO SEE HOW
THIS IS IMPEACHMENT. YOU CAN'T TELL IF THESE CALLS WERE COMPLETED, ONE
MINUTE, AND YOU CAN SEE WHEN CALLS ARE COMPLETED. THEY SEEM TO BE A
LITTLE LONGER, 16 MINUTES, FOUR MINUTES.
MR. DARDEN: SHE'S NEVER GOING TO BE HERE AGAIN, YOUR HONOR. I HAVE TO
COVER MY BASES.
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, I AM OBJECTING, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: I'M GOING TO OVERRULE THE OBJECTION AT THIS POINT. HOWEVER, MR.
DARDEN, WOULD YOU JUST AS A MATTER OF COURTESY, SO WE DON'T HAVE TO STOP
EVERY TIME, PULL OUT THE EXHIBIT FOR MY CLERK TO MAKE PHOTOCOPIES OF
THESE THINGS? HAVE YOU GOT ANYTHING ELSE?
I'M GOING TO TAKE A BREAK, BUT WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK IN ABOUT 10
MINUTES. IF YOU'VE GOT ANYTHING ELSE YOU ARE GOING TO USE, WHY DON'T YOU
USE THAT OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE YOUR LAW CLERK GO UP, MAKE A COPY OF IT SO
WE DON'T HAVE TO STOP AND DO THIS. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. AND JUST SO THE
RECORD IS CLEAR, THE CLERK DOES HAVE SDT'S FOR THE PHONE RECORDS IN THE
FILE.
MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU.
OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MR. DARDEN, PLEASE PROCEED.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, LET ME SHOW YOU A COPY OF A PHONE BILL, AN
ACTUAL PHONE BILL FOR TELEPHONE NUMBER (310) 472-0900. THE BILL DATE IS JUNE
28TH, 1994.
MR. DARDEN: MAY IT BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 91?
THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 91.
(PEO'S 91 FOR ID = PHONE BILL)
MR. DARDEN: AND I'M INDICATING 91 IN THE UPPER RIGHT-HAND CORNER, YOUR
HONOR.
THE COURT: NOTED.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, SHOWING YOU THE BILL MARKED PEOPLE'S 91,
PLEASE TAKE THAT.
A: UH-HUH.
Q: DO YOU SEE --
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: YOUR HONOR, COULD WE HAVE MR. DARDEN USE THE
MICROPHONE, PLEASE?
THE COURT: YES.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DO YOU SEE YOUR TELEPHONE NUMBER ON THE FACE OF THAT
BILL?
A: YES.
Q: AND I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO TAKE A LOOK THROUGH THE PAGES, IF YOU WILL,
PLEASE. DO YOU KNOW ANY OF THE TELEPHONE NUMBERS YOU CALLED DURING
THE MONTH OF JUNE 1994?
A: YES, SIR. THE ONES FROM GLENDALE.
Q: OKAY.
A: IT'S JUST THAT I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT USES THIS TELEPHONE. THE LADY
THAT I WORK FOR ALSO USES IT BECAUSE IT'S HERS.
Q: WELL, YOU WERE THE ONLY ONE HOME ON JUNE 13TH, 14TH AND 15TH, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: LET ME SHOW YOU PAGE 6 OF THE PHONE BILL. OKAY. AND THERE ARE FOUR OR
RATHER FIVE PHONE CALLS BETWEEN JUNE 11 AND JUNE 16 TO THE UNITED
KINGDOM, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU MADE THOSE CALLS?
A: WELL, IF THEY HAPPENED ON THAT DATE, ON THOSE DATES, THEN I MADE THEM,
SIR.
Q: OKAY. DO YOU RECALL CALLING THE SALINGER'S TO TELL THEM ABOUT THE
TRAFFIC PROBLEMS IN THE AREA?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT -- OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. AND I WOULD
LIKE -- AND MAY I INDICATE WHAT --
THE COURT: NO. NO. LET'S -- WHAT'S THE LEGAL GROUND?
MR. COCHRAN: THE GROUNDS IS, THIS IS -- THE COURT HAS TO SEE THE BILL. IF THE
COURT WOULD LOOK AT THE BILL, IT WOULD UNDERSTAND BETTER WHAT I'M
INDICATING.
THE COURT: I'M GOT THE BILL IN FRONT OF ME.
MR. COCHRAN: LOOK UNDER PERIOD. I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. I
THINK IT'S UNFAIR TO THE WITNESS, YOUR HONOR, BASED UPON THAT.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: IN CALLING THE SALINGER'S IN THE U.K., WERE YOU CALLING
THEM TO TELL THEM ABOUT THE TRAFFIC PROBLEMS IN THE AREA?
MR. COCHRAN: ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: YES, SIR. I CALLED THEM.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID YOU TELL THEM ABOUT THE TRAFFIC PROBLEMS?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF I SPOKE TO HER BECAUSE THEY HAVE DIFFERENT TIMES
AND I WOULDN'T FIND THEM AT THE HOTEL.
Q: DID THEY CALL YOU BACK?
Q: YOU MENTIONED A CLOSE FRIEND NAMED ALMA, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: IS THAT ALMA GUERRERO?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: WELL, YOU DO KNOW ALMA GUERRERO, DON'T YOU?
A: I DO NOT KNOW ALMA GUERRERO, SIR.
Q: WELL, DO YOU KNOW A WOMAN NAMED ALMA WHO WORKS FOR A FAMILY ON
ROCKINGHAM?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU A DOCUMENT, I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU THE
ADDRESS. I AM GOING TO ASK YOU TO LOOK AT THE ADDRESS.
MR. DARDEN: IF I MAY, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: YES.
THE WITNESS: I'LL LOOK FOR IT. DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MAY I POINT IT OUT TO YOU, MA'AM? JUST KEEP IT TO YOURSELF.
A: OKAY. OKAY. (IN ENGLISH).
Q: IS THAT THE ADDRESS WHERE ALMA WORKS?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND SHE IS A HOUSEKEEPER AND A NANNY; IS THAT CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND SHE'S SOMEONE THAT YOU SPEAK TO OR USED TO SPEAK TO ALMOST ON A
DAILY BASIS, CORRECT?
A: NOT EVERY DAY. BUT WE WOULD GO OUT TO WALK THE BABY.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU WOULD DO THAT OFTEN, CORRECT?
A: WHEN I HAVE TIME.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU WOULD MEET HER IN FRONT OF THE SALINGER'S HOUSE?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU WOULD TALK ABOUT THE SIMPSON FAMILY?
A: NO, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW MR. SIMPSON'S LIFE, SIR.
Q: WELL, YOU WOULD TALK ABOUT THE MURDERS AND HOW TRAGIC IT ALL WAS,
CORRECT?
A: SHE MUST HAVE KNOWN IT. SHE LIVES THERE TOO.
Q: WELL, BUT YOU AND SHE TALKED ABOUT IT ON OCCASION, DIDN'T YOU?
A: NO. WE WOULD TALK ABOUT OTHER THINGS, ABOUT OUR OWN LIVES.
Q: OKAY. SO YOU WERE LIVING NEXT DOOR TO MR. SIMPSON'S ESTATE, BUT YOU
NEVER TALKED ABOUT THE MURDERS WITH YOUR BEST FRIEND ALMA?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THE FORM OF THE QUESTION IS
ARGUMENTATIVE.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. NO. ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.
MR. DARDEN: SHE SAID SHE WAS HER BEST FRIEND.
MR. COCHRAN: NO. THAT'S NOT WHAT SHE SAID.
THE COURT: NO.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. IS THE ALMA THAT WORKS AT 535 --
THE INTERPRETER: I AM SORRY, COUNSEL?
THE WITNESS: SEE, YOU MENTIONED. ALL OVER THE WORLD KNOWS (IN ENGLISH).
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: NOW ALL OVER THE WORLD KNOWS NOW.
A: YOU'RE SO BAD (IN ENGLISH).
Q: I'M BAD. THE ALMA THAT WORKS THERE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND, CORRECT?
A: WE ARE FRIENDS, SIR.
Q: OKAY. YOU'VE KNOWN HER ALMOST FIVE YEARS, CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN HER?
A: ABOUT TWO AND A HALF YEARS, AROUND THERE. AROUND THERE.
Q: OKAY. WELL, DURING THE MANY CONVERSATIONS YOU HAD WITH HER, YOU
NEVER MENTIONED ANYTHING ABOUT SEEING THE BRONCO THE NIGHT OF THE
MURDERS, CORRECT?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER HAVING TOLD HER ANYTHING, SIR.
Q: OKAY.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. DARDEN, I HAVE TO STOP BECAUSE OF THE VIDEOTAPE
IS RUNNING OUT AT THIS POINT. WE NEED TO CHANGE TAPES.
MR. DARDEN: I WOULD ASK THAT MR. COCHRAN NOT DISCUSS THE INFORMATION I
JUST GAVE THE WITNESS WITH THE WITNESS, YOUR HONOR, DURING THE BREAK.
MR. COCHRAN: WHAT? ASK HER LAWYER.
THE COURT: IT'S UP TO HER LAWYER.
MR. DARDEN: WELL, I WOULD ASK MR. COCHRAN NOT TO GIVE THE INFORMATION I
JUST GAVE TO HIM TO HER LAWYER.
MR. COCHRAN: TALK TO HER LAWYER.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE'LL STAND IN RECESS FOR 15.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO PUT SOMETHING ON THE RECORD
IF I COULD.
THE COURT: WHEN WE COME BACK.
MR. COCHRAN: WHEN WE COME BACK?
THE COURT: I HAVE TO STOP FOR THE TAPE. I HAVE TO STOP FOR THE VIDEOTAPE.
MISS LOPEZ, YOU CAN STEP DOWN. WE'LL TAKE A 15-MINUTE BREAK. (RECESS.)
OF THE JURY:)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS HAMBURGER, WOULD YOU BRING YOUR CLIENT IN,
PLEASE? DEPUTY MAGNERA, DID WE RESOLVE THE ELECTRONIC PROBLEM?
DEPUTY MAGNERA: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: LET'S HAVE IT QUIET, PLEASE. BACK ON THE RECORD. ALL PARTIES ARE
PRESENT. MR. COCHRAN, YOU HAD A COMMENT?
MR. COCHRAN: YES, YOUR HONOR. I WANTED TO, WHILE THE CAMERAS WERE
GOING, TO STRAIGHTEN OUT SOMETHING FOR THE RECORD, IF THE COURT PLEASES.
AT ONE OF THE SIDEBARS, MR. DARDEN SAID THAT SOME LOCAL CHANNEL OR SOME
-- MR. DARDEN AND MISS CLARK SAID SOMETHING ABOUT SOME TELEVISION
STATION WAS REPORTING THAT I WAS SIGNALING THE WITNESS. THAT IS ABSOLUTELY
LUDICROUS AND I THINK IT'S ACTIONABLE. WHAT HAPPENED -- AND WE WENT BACK
AND MY CLIENT IN FACT, MR. SIMPSON REMINDED ME AND I TALKED TO THE COURT
REPORTER.
WHEN MR. DARDEN ASKED MISS LOPEZ A QUESTION ABOUT WHAT WE HAD TALKED
ABOUT AND SHE SAID SHE WAS TOLD TO TELL THE TRUTH, MR. DARDEN STARTED TO
KIND OF -- HE MADE A SOUND THAT WAS KIND OF LIKE A LAUGH OR SOME KIND OF
A SOUND. I ASKED YOUR HONOR TO STRIKE THAT FROM THE RECORD IF YOUR
HONOR RECALLS. I THEN LOOKED AT CHRIS, AS I OFT TIMES DO AND I ASKED HER TO
STRIKE THAT FROM THE RECORD AND I WENT LIKE THIS TO GET THAT FROM THE
RECORD OR WHATEVER. SHE WAS TRYING TO TELL ME THAT SHE COULDN'T GET A
LAUGH OR A SMILE OR A GRIN DOWN. AND I WANTED TO MAKE THAT CLEAR FOR THE
RECORD. THAT I WILL HOLD ANYONE ACTIONABLE WHO WOULD MAKE ANY SUCH A
STATEMENT LIKE THAT. I WOULD NEVER EVER DO ANYTHING LIKE THAT AND I VERY
MUCH READ RESENT IT. AND I WOULD LIKE YOUR HONOR TO HEAR FROM CHRIS
WITH REGARD TO THE FACT SHE SAT THERE AND WATCHED ME DO THAT. IS THAT
CORRECT, CHRIS?
COURT REPORTER OLSON: YES, IT IS.
MR. COCHRAN: SO I'M JUST FURIOUS THAT PEOPLE WOULD BE SO DESPERATE, YOUR
HONOR, FOR A STORY. I NEVER LOOKED AT THAT WITNESS. I WASN'T PAYING
ATTENTION TO THE WITNESS. I WAS TALKING TO THE COURT REPORTER FROM MY
SEAT HERE. I CAN BARELY SEE UP THERE. AND I WAS TALKING TO HER ABOUT
STRIKING THAT FROM THE RECORD.
SO I HOPE THE RECORD IS CLEAR IN THAT REGARD, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, MR. COCHRAN.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT ROSA LOPEZ HAS
AGAIN RESUMED THE WITNESS STAND. GOOD AFTERNOON AGAIN, MISS LOPEZ.
HOPEFULLY THIS WILL BE THE END OF IT. I AM SORRY.
MR. COCHRAN: FOR THE CONDITIONAL EXAM -- MR. DARDEN DID APPROACH THE
WITNESS STAND ON THE CONDITIONAL EXAM. WOULD THAT BE ON THE SAME TAPE?
THE COURT: I ASSUME IT IS ALL ON THE SAME TAPE AND I ASSUME WE HAVE A
BACK-UP TAPE FROM COURT T.V.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, HE APPROACHED THE BENCH AND ASKED SOME
QUESTIONS OF THE WITNESS, AND SO I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE EQUAL
TIME WITH REGARD TO THAT. I DIDN'T HAVE A MICROPHONE ON AT THAT TIME, SO I
WAS JUST INQUIRING OF THE COURT AND OF CHRIS.
THE COURT: I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW.
MR. COCHRAN: CAN WE -- BEFORE THE END OF THE DAY, CAN WE MAKE SURE OF
THAT?
THE COURT: DO YOU WANT TO SECURE THE TAPE OF THAT PARTICULAR PASSAGE?
MR. COCHRAN: NO. NO. NO. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO IS TO MAKE SURE THAT MY
RESPONSE GOES ON THAT TAPE BECAUSE LATER ON, YOUR HONOR, I DON'T WANT TO
BE FACED WITH ANYTHING THAT THEY COULD MAKE AN OBJECTION ON THAT. THAT'S
WHAT I WAS CONCERNED --
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I'M NOT AS CONCERNED ABOUT THAT BECAUSE WE DO STILL
HAVE THE VERBATIM COURT REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY, IF THE COURT WANTS ME TO,
I'LL GO UP BY THE WITNESS AND MAKE THE SAME KIND OF GESTURES THAT HE DID
WHEN HE WAS UP BY MISS LOPEZ IS WHAT I'M SAYING.
THE COURT: WELL, WE'LL GET TO THAT WHEN WE GET TO REDIRECT.
MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU FOR YOUR COMMENTS, MR. COCHRAN.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GOOD AFTERNOON AGAIN, MISS LOPEZ. YOU ARE
REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH. MR. DARDEN, YOU MAY CONCLUDE YOUR
CROSS-EXAMINATION.
THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR.
THE COURT: SUBTLE, HUH?
MR. DARDEN: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: THERE'S A PROBLEM WITH THE TELESTRATOR AND WITH COPYING,
AND WE HAVEN'T EVEN GOTTEN TO THE PHOTOGRAPHS WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT.
SO JUST SO YOU KNOW.
MR. COCHRAN: I DIDN'T HEAR WHAT HE SAID.
THE COURT: HE INDICATED THERE'S STILL A PROBLEM WITH THE TELESTRATOR AND
THE PRINTER AT THIS POINT, BUT WE'RE GOING TO PROCEED IN ITS ABSENCE IN ANY
EVENT.
MR. COCHRAN: VERY WELL.
THE COURT: PROCEED.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. MISS LOPEZ, YOU TOLD US THAT YOU CONSIDERED THE
INFORMATION THAT YOU HAD AS SOMEHOW POSING A DANGER?
A: DANGER? WELL, THIS IS THE KIND OF INFORMATION THAT YOU CAN'T GIVE TO
JUST ANYBODY, ANYBODY THAT DOESN'T KNOW IT.
Q: ALL RIGHT. SO YOU DIDN'T GIVE IT TO THE POLICE?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THAT. IT'S LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE. I
OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.
MR. DARDEN: I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO --
THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED. COUNSEL, LET ME MAKE THIS REAL CLEAR.
OBJECTIONS ARE OBJECTION, AND THEN I'LL ASK YOU TO STATE THE LEGAL
GROUNDS. MR. DARDEN.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. YOU DIDN'T GIVE THIS INFORMATION TO THE POLICE,
CORRECT?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU GIVE IT TO THE POLICE?
A: NO.
Q: DID YOU GIVE THE INFORMATION TO THE SALINGER'S, THAT IS PRIOR TO JANUARY
15, 1995?
Q: YOU DIDN'T GIVE IT TO ALMA GUERRERO, RIGHT?
Q: PRIOR TO THE BREAK, YOU TOLD US THAT YOU DID NOT TELL YOUR FRIEND ALMA
ABOUT HAVING SEEN THE BRONCO, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THE FORM -- OBJECT.
THE INTERPRETER: CAN I HAVE THE QUESTION READ BACK, PLEASE?
THE COURT: PRIOR TO THE BREAK, YOU TOLD US YOU DID NOT TELL YOUR FRIEND
ALMA ABOUT HAVING SEEN THE BRONCO, CORRECT?
THE WITNESS: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. (BEFORE TRANSLATION).
MR. DARDEN: I'M SORRY. WHAT DID SHE SAY?
THE COURT: SHE SAID SHE DOESN'T REMEMBER.
THE WITNESS: I -- I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU DON'T REMEMBER TELLING ALMA OR YOU DON'T
REMEMBER TELLING US?
Q: YOU DON'T REMEMBER YOUR TESTIMONY FROM 15 OR 20 MINUTES AGO?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: CAN'T REMEMBER IT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: CAN YOU REMEMBER YOUR TESTIMONY FROM THIS MORNING?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. YOU ALSO HAVE A FRIEND NAME SYLVIANNE WALKER, CORRECT? YOU
HAVE A FRIEND NAMED SYLVIANNE WALKER?
A: SHE'S NOT MY FRIEND, SIR. SHE'S MY BOSS. SHE IS TOO RICH TO BE MY FRIEND.
Q: OKAY. SHE IS SOMEONE YOU USED TO WORK FOR, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU WORKED FOR HER PRIOR TO YOUR WORKING FOR THE SALINGER'S,
CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU'VE BEEN WORKING FOR THE SALINGER'S FOR THREE YEARS, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: BUT YOU DO SPEAK TO MISS WALKER ON OCCASION, CORRECT?
A: ONCE IN A WHILE, SIR.
Q: YOU ALSO KNOW MISS WALKER'S HUSBAND, CORRECT?
A: OH, YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU LIKE HIM A LOT, CORRECT?
A: ALL GOOD PEOPLE -- I THINK ALL GOOD PEOPLE ARE NICE, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU USUALLY COOK HIM A BIRTHDAY DINNER EVERY YEAR, CORRECT?
A: WHEN THEY NEED ME, YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. DO YOU RECALL CALLING MISS WALKER IN AUGUST 1994?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU AND MISS WALKER DISCUSSED THE MURDERS, CORRECT?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER THAT WE DISCUSSED ABOUT ANY MURDERS, SIR. I DO
REMEMBER ABOUT THE DINNER THAT WE WERE GOING TO COOK FOR THE
GENTLEMAN.
Q: WELL, ARE YOU SAYING YOU DON'T REMEMBER BECAUSE YOU DON'T REMEMBER
OR ARE YOU SAYING --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION.
THE COURT: IT'S A VAGUE QUESTION. WHY DON'T YOU REPHRASE IT.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SO THERE ARE ABOUT 50 QUESTIONS THAT I'VE ASKED YOU NOW
THAT YOU DON'T REMEMBER --
MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR. ARGUMENTATIVE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: -- THAT YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE ANSWER TO OR THE EVENT
OR THE TIME OR THE OCCASION.
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. ARGUMENTATIVE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I'M GOING TO SUSTAIN THE QUESTION. IT'S ACTUALLY
COMPOUND AND COMPLEX BECAUSE IT CALLS FOR MANY -- SEVERAL DIFFERENT
ANSWERS. WHY DON'T YOU REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, DURING THE CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAD WITH
MISS WALKER, DID YOU TELL HER THAT YOU HAD INFORMATION REGARDING THE
LOCATION OF THE BRONCO THE NIGHT OF THE MURDERS?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER HAVING SAID THAT TO HER, SIR.
Q: DID SOMEONE TELL YOU THAT IF YOU SAY THAT YOU DON'T REMEMBER
SOMETHING, THAT IT WILL MAKE IT EASIER FOR YOU?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. YOU DIDN'T TELL ALMA THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO, DID YOU?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: WHAT'S THE OBJECTION?
MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU DIDN'T TELL ALMA THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO THAT
NIGHT, DID YOU?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER. ASK HER IF I TOLD HER BECAUSE I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q: OKAY. WELL, IF I TOLD YOU THAT SHE TOLD US THAT YOU NEVER TOLD HER
ABOUT IT --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. IT'S
HEARSAY. IMPROPER QUESTION.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. IT'S A 770 FOUNDATION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: IF I TOLD YOU THAT SHE TOLD US --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT'S VAGUE, IMPROPER, YOUR
HONOR, EVEN UNDER 770.
THE COURT: REPHRASE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: ARE YOU AWARE THAT WE SPOKE TO ALMA?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. WE? CAN YOU TELL US WHO -- IT'S
VAGUE, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. I THINK SHE UNDERSTANDS WHO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.
THE WITNESS: NO, SIR, IT'S NEVER BEEN SAID TO ME.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DIDN'T YOU TESTIFY EARLIER THAT ALMA HAD TOLD YOU THAT
WE HAD SPOKEN TO HER SOMETIME AGO?
THE INTERPRETER: I'M SORRY?
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DIDN'T YOU TESTIFY EARLIER THAT YOU KNEW THAT WE HAD
SPOKEN TO ALMA BEFORE?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION. THAT MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.
MR. DARDEN: SHE DID TELL US THAT EARLIER.
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. SPEAKING OBJECTION.
THE COURT: SAME?
MR. COCHRAN: SAME OBJECTION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. DURING THE CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAD WITH MISS
WALKER, DID YOU DISCUSS THE UPCOMING TRIAL OF O.J. SIMPSON?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: DID YOU DISCUSS THE POSSIBILITY THAT YOU MIGHT TESTIFY IN THIS CASE?
Q: DID YOU DISCUSS THE POSSIBILITY THAT YOU MIGHT TESTIFY IN THIS CASE?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER HAVING SAID THAT TO HER, SIR.
Q: DOES THAT MEAN THAT YOU DID OR THAT YOU DIDN'T?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WELL, WHO DID YOU TELL ABOUT THE BRONCO, THAT IS DURING THE YEAR
1994? DID YOU TELL ANYBODY?
A: I TOLD -- I SAID THIS TO THE MAN WHO -- TO THE INVESTIGATOR, SIR.
Q: MR. BILL?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND IS HE THE ONLY PERSON YOU TOLD THIS TO DURING 1994?
A: LATER ON, THERE WAS ANOTHER PERSON. I DON'T REMEMBER THE LAST NAME.
Q: DOES THAT PERSON WORK FOR MR. JOHNNIE?
A: I DON'T KNOW THAT, SIR.
Q: WHO DOES THAT PERSON WORK FOR, IF YOU KNOW?
A: IT SEEMS THAT IT'S FOR MR. SHAPIRO. I DON'T KNOW.
Q: OKAY. OTHER THAN THAT PERSON AND MR. BILL, DID YOU TELL ANYBODY ELSE
DURING 1994?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER WHO ELSE, SIR.
Q: WELL, DID YOU TELL SOMEONE ELSE?
A: I ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.
Q: DURING YOUR CONVERSATION WITH MISS WALKER, ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOU TOLD
HER, QUOTE, O.J. SIMPSON IS A GREAT GUY AND I'LL TESTIFY TO ANYTHING
ANYTIME?
Q: YOU'RE NOT DENYING HAVING MADE THAT STATEMENT THEN?
A: IT'S THAT I DON'T REMEMBER IF I SAID THAT OR NOT.
Q: SO YOU COULD HAVE SAID THAT?
MR. DARDEN: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, YOU SPOKE TO THE INVESTIGATORS, MR. BILL AND
THE OTHER MAN DURING AUGUST, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU SPOKE TO MISS WALKER DURING AUGUST, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU SPOKE TO MISS WALKER AFTER YOU SPOKE TO THE
INVESTIGATORS, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND SO WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MISS WALKER, YOU KNEW THAT YOU MIGHT BE
TESTIFYING IN THIS CASE, CORRECT?
A: I HAD TOLD THE INVESTIGATORS THAT I DIDN'T WANT TO COME AND TESTIFY IN
COURT, SIR.
Q: MISS WALL -- MISS LOPEZ, DID YOU TELL MISS WALKER THAT YOU WOULD TESTIFY
TO ANYTHING ANYTIME?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER HAVING SAID THAT TO HER.
Q: MISS LOPEZ, THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE MURDER CASE OF THE CENTURY.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION. MAY WE APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?
MR. COCHRAN: MAY WE APPROACH ON THIS ONE QUESTION?
THE COURT: NO.
MR. COCHRAN: THERE'S JUST ONE THING --
THE COURT: I'M SUSTAINING THE OBJECTION.
MR. COCHRAN: THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE I WANTED TO POINT OUT, A WORD I
WANTED THE COURT TO BE AWARE OF, IF I MIGHT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WITH THE REPORTER, PLEASE.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
THE COURT: OVER AT THE SIDEBAR.
MR. DARDEN: CAN WE STOP HAVING CONVERSATIONS BEFORE WE GET HERE? IT
WOULD BE NICE IF WE STARTED AT THE TIME OF OUR ARRIVAL.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THE REASON I WANTED TO APPROACH EVEN THOUGH
THE COURT SUSTAINED THE OBJECTION, AT LUNCH TIME, HER LAWYER OR SOMEONE
SAID THERE'S -- SHE HAS A PROBLEM WITH THE WORD "TESTIMONY" OR
"TESTIMONIAL," AND I WANTED TO POINT THAT OUT TO THE COURT -- I FORGOT TO
DO THAT BEFORE -- SO WE CAN FIND OUT WHETHER OR NOT WITH REGARD TO THE
INTERPRETER, WHETHER THERE'S A MINOR -- HOW THEY'RE TRANSLATING
"TESTIMONIAL."
MR. DARDEN: YOU KNOW, I THINK TO DO THAT WOULD SUGGEST TO THE WITNESS,
YOU KNOW, WHAT THE WITNESS' ANSWERS ARE TO BE, OKAY. SHE'S TAKEN AN OATH
AND PRESUMABLY SHE'S COMPETENT. IF THE DEFENSE HAS A PROBLEM WITH THAT
WORD, HE CAN CLEAR IT UP ON REDIRECT. LET ME FINISH MY CROSS.
MR. COCHRAN: I WANT YOU TO FINISH IT. I'M SAYING THERE'S A PROBLEM WITH THE
WORD "TESTIMONY" FROM THE STANDPOINT OF THE WITNESS ACCORDING TO HER
LAWYER. I'M JUST TRYING TO GET THE COURT TO INQUIRE IN FAIRNESS TO THE
WITNESS.
MR. DARDEN: THE INTERPRETER'S JOB IS TO SIMPLY REPEAT THE OTHER LANGUAGE,
THE WITNESS' TESTIMONY, CORRECT? I MEAN TO INTERPRET IT, AND THAT'S WHAT
SHE DOES. IF THAT'S HER INTERPRETATION, THAT'S HER INTERPRETATION.
MR. COCHRAN: WE HAVE HAD TWO OR THREE OTHER INTERPRETERS. THE COURT IS
AWARE SOMETIMES BECAUSE OF THE DIFFERENT DIALECTS, THERE'S A PROBLEM. I
WOULD ASK THE COURT TO JUST INQUIRE ABOUT THAT SO WE HAVE NO PROBLEM.
THE COURT: MADAM INTERPRETER, WOULD YOU STEP OVER HERE, PLEASE?
MR. DARDEN: I WOULD ASK THE COURT NOT TO ASK THE INTERPRETER TO ASK THE
WITNESS TO CLARIFY.
THE COURT: I'M NOT ASKING THAT, MR. DARDEN.
(THE INTERPRETERS ARE NOW PRESENT AT THE BENCH.)
THE INTERPRETER: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON.
THE INTERPRETER: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: CAN YOU TELL ME HOW IS THE WORD -- ENGLISH WORD "TESTIMONY"
TRANSLATED INTO SPANISH?
THE INTERPRETER: "TESTIMONIO" OR "ATESTIGUAR," EITHER ONE.
THE COURT: AND WHAT IS THE SPANISH -- HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE
"TESTIMONIAL" IN SPANISH AS IT RELATES TO COURT PROCEEDINGS, TESTIMONY
SUCH AS THIS?
THE INTERPRETER: "TESTIMONIAL" OR --
THE COURT: YES. THE SPANISH WORD, DOES IT ALSO RELATE -- DOES IT RELATE TO
DIRECTLY -- I MEAN IS IT A DIRECT TRANSLATION FOR WHAT WE HAVE HERE?
THE INTERPRETER: YES. IT'S "RENDIR TESTIMONIO" OR "ATESTIGUAR." "ATESTIGUAR"
IS "TO TESTIFY." IS THERE A SPECIFIC PROBLEM BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS -- YOU
KNOW, IT SOUNDS LIKE AN ALL-ENCOMPASSING QUESTION AND I'M NOT REALLY
SURE IF I ANSWERED IT.
THE COURT: NO. I WAS JUST WONDERING WHAT THE WORD IN SPANISH WAS AND
WHETHER OR NOT THERE NEEDED TO BE ANY OTHER EXPLANATION AS TO WHAT
COURTROOM TESTIMONY IS IN ENGLISH WHEN IT'S TRANSLATED INTO SPANISH.
THE INTERPRETER: "ATESTIGUAR." "TESTIMONIO," "ATESTIGUAR," IT'S THE SAME
THING, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OKAY.
SECOND INTERPRETER: PERHAPS IF THERE'S A DOUBT AS TO WHETHER SHE
UNDERSTANDS, IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT COURT TESTIMONY, IT MAY BE ASKED
AS TESTIMONY HERE IN COURT I SUPPOSE TO --
MR. DARDEN: ON REDIRECT, RIGHT?
THE COURT: NO. THAT'S MY PROVINCE. THANK YOU, LADIES.
(THE INTERPRETERS RETURNED TO THE OPEN COURTROOM.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. EVERYBODY HAPPY? ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MR. DARDEN, YOU MAY CONTINUE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, COULD YOU HAVE TOLD MISS WALKER THAT YOU
WOULD TESTIFY TO ANYTHING AT ANYTIME IN THIS CASE?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. SPECULATION.
THE COURT: I THINK WE'VE ASKED THIS QUESTION ABOUT THIS STATEMENT TO MISS
WALKER NOW ABOUT EIGHT DIFFERENT WAYS.
MR. DARDEN: IS THE COURT ACCEPTING THE WITNESS' RESPONSE THAT SHE CAN'T
REMEMBER?
THE COURT: COUNSEL, THAT'S A DIFFERENT ISSUE UNDER 1770, 1335 OR WHAT IS IT,
1235?
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, YOU'VE HAD MANY, MANY CONVERSATIONS WITH
THE LAWYERS AND INVESTIGATORS IN THIS CASE, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND IN FACT, YOU'VE HAD A CONVERSATION WITH ONE OF THESE LAWYERS FOR
MR. SIMPSON EACH AND EVERY DAY OVER THE PAST SIX DAYS, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. YOU WENT TO MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE ON SATURDAY FOR SEVEN HOURS,
CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: I AM SORRY. WERE YOU AT MR. COCHRAN'S OFFICE FROM 2:00 TO
9:00 P.M. LAST SATURDAY?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: HOW LONG WERE YOU THERE?
A: I DON'T KNOW THAT, SIR.
Q: BUT YOU WERE THERE SEVERAL HOURS, CORRECT?
A: NO, SIR. JUST A FEW HOURS. I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY.
Q: WHEN YOU SAY JUST A FEW HOURS, DO YOU MEAN LIKE TWO HOURS?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: HOW MANY HOURS?
A: I DON'T KNOW FOR HOW LONG, FOR HOW MANY WE WERE THERE, SIR.
Q: YOU WEREN'T PAYING ATTENTION TO THE CLOCK?
A: I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE HOURS, SIR.
Q: YOU'RE NOT VERY TIME CONSCIOUS, CORRECT?
THE WITNESS: YES. I AM CONSCIOUS ABOUT THE TIME THAT I WASTE HERE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, LET'S STOP WASTING TIME.
MR. COCHRAN: IS THAT A QUESTION? OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. I ASSUME THAT'S A PREFACE TO WINDING UP CROSS-
EXAMINATION.
MR. COCHRAN: I WITHDRAW IT.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TIME IT WAS THAT YOU HEARD ANY OF
THE VOICES THAT YOU SAY YOU HEARD, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. ASKED AND ANSWERED.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TIME IT WAS THAT YOU SAW THE
BRONCO THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12TH; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
THE INTERPRETER: I'M SORRY. THE LAST --
THE COURT: JUNE THE 12TH.
THE WITNESS: SIR, I'VE ALWAYS SAID THAT IT WAS AFTER 10:00, AND PERHAPS YOU
ACCOMMODATED THE OTHER MINUTES, BUT I -- BECAUSE I SAW THE CLOCK. IT WAS
10:00 O'CLOCK. I BOILED MY WATER, I MADE MY TEA AND I TOOK THE COLLAR OFF
THE DOG, I LOOKED FOR THE LEASH, I PUT IT ON HER AND I WENT OUTSIDE, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHAT CLOCK ARE YOU REFERRING TO?
A: I REFERRED TO THE ONE IN THE KITCHEN, THE ONE IN MY BEDROOM AND THEN
LATER, THE ONE IN THE KITCHEN.
Q: SO YOU LOOKED AT BOTH OF THOSE CLOCKS PRIOR TO GOING OUTSIDE THAT
NIGHT?
A: I CAN'T BE IN MY BEDROOM, SIR, AND IN THE KITCHEN AT THE SAME TIME.
Q: WOULD -- DID YOU LOOK AT THE CLOCK IN YOUR BEDROOM AND THEN LOOK AT
THE CLOCK IN THE KITCHEN?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU LOOKED AT THE CLOCK IN THE BEDROOM?
A: 10:00 IN THE EVENING, SIR.
Q: WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU LOOKED AT THE CLOCK IN THE KITCHEN?
A: SAY 10:00 AND 30 SECONDS, TWO SECONDS.
Q: AND WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU LOOKED AT YOUR WATCH?
MR. COCHRAN: ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR. OBJECTION.
THE INTERPRETER: YOUR HONOR, IN SPANISH, THERE'S ONLY ONE WORD FOR
"RELOJ," WHETHER IT'S A WATCH OR A CLOCK. SO --
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WERE YOU WEARING A WRISTWATCH? HOW ABOUT THAT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: AND WHEN YOU WENT OUTSIDE, YOU WEREN'T WEARING A WATCH?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: DID SYLVIANNE WALKER ASK YOU WHAT SHE THOUGHT OF THE MURDER
CHARGES PENDING AGAINST MR. SIMPSON?
MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO HEARSAY. OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. HEARSAY.
MR. DARDEN: IT'S A QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER.
THE WITNESS: SHE COULDN'T HAVE ASKED ME THAT BECAUSE SHE'S MORE
INTELLIGENT THAN I AM.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, DIDN'T MISS WALKER ASK YOU, WELL, WHAT DO YOU
THINK --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. HEARSAY. IRRELEVANT.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DIDN'T SHE ASK YOU WHAT DO YOU THINK, THAT IS ABOUT THE
MURDER CHARGES?
A: NO, SIR (BEFORE INTERPRETATION).
Q: DIDN'T SHE ASK YOU IF YOU THOUGHT THAT MR. SIMPSON COMMITTED THE
MURDERS?
MR. COCHRAN: SAME OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOU RESPONDED, "OH, NO SENORA. HE
HAD SOMEBODY DO IT FOR HIM"?
A: NO, SIR. I DON'T REMEMBER HAVING SAID THAT TO THE LADY.
Q: YOU LAST SPOKE TO MISS WALKER ON JANUARY 6 OF THIS YEAR, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU SAW HER HERE IN COURT ON MONDAY, CORRECT?
A: I DIDN'T SEE HER, SIR, OR I WOULD HAVE SAID HI TO HER BECAUSE I LIKE HER VERY
MUCH, I RESPECT HER VERY MUCH.
Q: SO ARE YOU SAYING YOU DIDN'T SEE MISS WALKER?
A: NO, SIR. I -- I DID NOT SEE HER HERE.
Q: AND DO YOU LIKE HER AND RESPECT HER BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE HER TO BE AN
HONEST PERSON?
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. CHARACTER REFERENCE.
MR. DARDEN: I'M SORRY?
THE COURT: NEVER MIND.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU'VE KNOWN MISS WALKER APPROXIMATELY 12 YEARS,
CORRECT? CORRECT?
A: I'VE KNOWN HER -- I'VE KNOWN HER SINCE 19 -- HALFWAY 1991, '92. I STARTED
WORKING FOR HER IN 1982.
Q: AND HAS SHE ALWAYS BEEN KIND TO YOU?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. IRRELEVANT. IMMATERIAL.
THE COURT: DON'T WE JUST WANT TO ASK IF THERE'S SOME REASON WHY THIS
MIGHT BE -- WHY THOSE STATEMENTS MIGHT HAVE BEEN SAID?
MR. DARDEN: I LIKE MY WAY BETTER, YOUR HONOR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: CAN YOU THINK OF ANY REASON WHY MISS WALKER MIGHT LIE
AND SAY THAT YOU TOLD HER THAT YOU WILL TESTIFY TO ANYTHING ANYTIME IN
THIS CASE?
A: WELL, IS THAT I DON'T REMEMBER HAVING SAID THAT TO HER, SIR.
Q: SO IT COULD BE THAT PERHAPS YOU DID MAKE THAT STATEMENT, CORRECT?
THE WITNESS: I DON'T THINK SO, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DO YOU KNOW THAT YOU DIDN'T MAKE THAT STATEMENT?
THE INTERPRETER: I AM SORRY, YOUR HONOR.
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: I ASKED YOU THE OTHER DAY WHETHER YOU HAD EVER SPOKEN
TO ANYONE FROM THE ENQUIRER. DO YOU RECALL ME ASKING YOU THAT
QUESTION?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: DID YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION WHEN I ASKED IT THEN?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: HAVE YOU EVER --
MR. DARDEN: MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: LET'S GO BACK AND TALK ABOUT MICHELLE FOR A MOMENT.
OKAY. THAT IS MICHELLE ABUDRAHM, CORRECT?
A: I DON'T KNOW HER LAST NAME. I JUST KNOW HER BY MICHELLE.
Q: AND SHE USED TO BE THE MAID OVER AT MR. SIMPSON'S HOME, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND SHE GOT FIRED; IS THAT RIGHT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
MR. DARDEN: OKAY.
THE COURT: IF SHE KNOWS.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE MICHELLE GOT FIRED FROM MR.
SIMPSON'S HOME?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. SPECULATION.
THE COURT: ARE YOU?
THE WITNESS: NOT THAT I KNOW. I DON'T KNOW.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL --
A: I DON'T ASK THOSE THINGS TO HER.
Q: WELL, YOU DO KNOW THAT NICOLE SLAPPED MICHELLE ONE DAY, CORRECT?
A: BECAUSE SHE TOLD ME THAT.
Q: OKAY.
AND MICHELLE WAS VERY UPSET WHEN SHE TOLD YOU THAT, CORRECT?
A: SHE WAS VERY SAD.
Q: OKAY. AND SHE TOLD YOU THAT SHE HATED MICHELLE OR RATHER SHE HATED
NICOLE, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. HEARSAY. ALSO IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL, YOUR
HONOR.
THE WITNESS: SHE DIDN'T TELL ME SHE HATED HER.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: PARDON ME? WHAT WAS THE ANSWER?
A: SHE DIDN'T TELL ME THAT SHE HATED HER.
Q: WELL, SHE WAS CRYING WHEN SHE TOLD YOU THAT SHE HAD BEEN SLAPPED,
CORRECT?
A: ANYONE WOULD CRY, SIR.
Q: WELL, WAS SHE CRYING?
A: YES, SIR. A LOT.
Q: AND WERE YOU UPSET THAT NICOLE HAD SLAPPED MICHELLE?
A: NO. I JUST TRY TO CONSOLE HER.
Q: WELL, ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOU DIDN'T LIKE NICOLE?
A: I ONLY SAW NICOLE ONCE. I CAN'T SAY THAT I DON'T LIKE HER.
Q: WELL, DIDN'T YOU TELL SOMEONE THAT YOU DID NOT LIKE HER BECAUSE --
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: -- BECAUSE SHE SLAPPED MICHELLE?
MR. COCHRAN: VAGUE, YOUR HONOR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID YOU EVER TELL ANYONE THAT YOU DISLIKED NICOLE
BECAUSE NICOLE HAD SLAPPED MICHELLE?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. OBJECTION.
THE WITNESS: IT'S TRUE. NOBODY LIKES TO GET SLAPPED, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND SO YOU WERE ANGRY AT NICOLE FOR HAVING SLAPPED
MICHELLE, CORRECT?
A: NO. SHE DIDN'T HIT ME. BECAUSE IF -- I WOULD HAVE HIT HER BACK.
Q: DID YOU EVER TELL ANYONE THAT YOU HATED NICOLE?
THE WITNESS: I DIDN'T SAY THAT I HATED HER. I SAID THAT I DIDN'T LIKE HER.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHY IS IT THAT YOU DID NOT LIKE HER?
A: BECAUSE SHE HIT MICHELLE.
Q: SHE DIDN'T HIT YOU, CORRECT?
A: BUT WE ARE FRIENDS. WE ARE BOTH HOUSEKEEPERS AND WE EARN OUR LIVING
WITH THE SWEAT OF OUR BROW.
Q: AND SO FOR NICOLE TO STRIKE MICHELLE IS A FORM OF DISRESPECT TO YOU;
ISN'T IT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT'S SPECULATIVE.
THE WITNESS: OF COURSE, YES.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND YOU ARE OFFENDED THAT A HOMEOWNER WOULD SLAP
THEIR MAID, CORRECT?
A: NOT OFFENDED, BUT I DIDN'T LIKE IT.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU ALREADY TOLD US THAT YOU DIDN'T TELL -- STRIKE THAT. STRIKE
THAT. EVEN THOUGH YOU DIDN'T TELL ANY OF THE UNIFORMED OFFICERS IN FRONT
OF ROCKINGHAM --
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: -- ABOUT YOUR HAVING SEEN THE BRONCO, YOU DID TELL
MICHELLE, CORRECT?
ARGUMENTATIVE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. AND YOU TOLD MICHELLE BEFORE YOU TOLD THE
SALINGER'S, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU TOLD MICHELLE BEFORE YOU TOLD SYLVIANNE WALKER OR
YOUR BEST FRIEND ALMA?
THE COURT: I'VE SUSTAINED THE OBJECTION ON THE GROUNDS OF COMPOUND.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND YOU CONSIDERED THE INFORMATION THAT YOU HAD TO BE
VERY DANGEROUS, RIGHT?
THE WITNESS: OF COURSE, YES.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID YOU THINK YOU WERE PUTTING MICHELLE IN DANGER
WHEN YOU TOLD HER WHAT YOU KNEW ABOUT THE BRONCO?
A: IT'S THAT WE DIDN'T DISCUSS IT IN THE SAME WAY THAT YOU'RE ASKING THIS, SIR.
Q: WELL, DID YOU TELL MICHELLE THAT YOU HAD SEEN THE BRONCO?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND DID MICHELLE TELL YOU WHAT TIME IT WAS THAT YOU SAW THE
BRONCO?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. ARGUMENTATIVE. YOUR HONOR, I
OBJECT.
THE INTERPRETER: I'M SORRY. COULD YOU REPEAT THE QUESTION?
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID MICHELLE TELL YOU WHAT TIME IT WAS THAT YOU SAW THE
BRONCO?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF I SAID THAT TO HER, SIR.
Q: WELL, DID SHE SAY IT TO YOU?
A: NO.
Q: BUT YOU AND SHE DISCUSSED EVERYTHING YOU KNEW ABOUT THE BRONCO,
CORRECT?
A: A FEW WORDS.
THE WITNESS: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE SOME MORE WATER.
THE COURT: YES. MRS. ROBERTSON.
THE WITNESS: PLEASE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WERE YOU GIVEN A BUSINESS CARD FROM SOMEONE WHO
CLAIMED TO BE WITH THE ENQUIRER?
A: THEY GAVE MANY, MANY CARDS, SIR.
Q: WELL, WERE YOU GIVEN A CARD FROM MICHAEL DUFFEY?
A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR, THE NAME OF THAT MAN BECAUSE I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q: HOW ABOUT MICHAEL GLEN?
A: I DON'T KNOW THAT, SIR. I DON'T REMEMBER THE NAMES. THEY GAVE ME MANY
WITH MANY NAMES.
Q: HOW ABOUT BRAD WEISBERG?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO THESE NAMES. THESE ARE NAMES OF -- I DON'T
KNOW WHO THESE NAMES ARE. IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL. OBJECTION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: HOW ABOUT BRAD WEISBERG? YES?
A: SIR, I DON'T REMEMBER BECAUSE I WOULD HAVE TO BE WRITTEN DOWN
HUNDREDS OF THE NAMES OF REPORTERS BECAUSE REPORTERS CAME FROM ALL
OVER THE WORLD.
Q: WELL, DID YOU SPEAK TO ALL OF THOSE REPORTERS THAT CAME FROM ALL OVER
THE WORLD?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THIS IS --
THE WITNESS: WELL, WITH THE ONES THAT CAME OVER TO THE HOUSE, I HAD TO
SAY SOMETHING. WHAT AM I GOING TO DO THEN?
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU COULD SAY NO COMMENT.
THE COURT: NOT A QUESTION. NOT A QUESTION.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SO YOU DID TALK TO SEVERAL REPORTERS THEN, CORRECT?
A: YES. BUT I -- I SAID NO COMMENT.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU JUST SAW THE VIDEO FOOTAGE WE PLAYED FOR YOU ON
THE MONITOR, RIGHT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: YOU DIDN'T SAY NO COMMENT THEN, DID YOU?
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.
OBJECTION. IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DO YOU RECALL AN OCCASION WHEN YOU WERE STANDING IN
FRONT OF THE HOUSE WITH YOUR FRIEND ALMA?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND A MAN CAME UP AND GAVE BOTH OF YOU A BUSINESS CARD?
A: I DON'T KNOW IF THEY GAVE HER ONE, SIR. I DON'T KNOW THAT THEY -- AS I TOLD
YOU, THEY GAVE ME MANY OF THEM.
Q: DO YOU RECALL AN OCCASION WHEN YOU WERE STANDING IN FRONT OF THE
HOUSE WHEN A MAN CAME UP AND GAVE YOU, BOTH YOU AND ALMA A BUSINESS
CARD?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE WITNESS: NO, I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DO YOU RECALL AN OCCASION WHEN YOU AND ALMA WERE
STANDING IN FRONT OF THE HOUSE AND A WOMAN APPROACHED THE TWO OF YOU
AND GAVE YOU BOTH A BUSINESS CARD?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. THIS IS A WOMAN? OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, TO THE
FORM OF THE QUESTION. ARE WE TALKING ABOUT A WOMAN NOW OR A MAN?
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID YOU CALL THE ENQUIRER, THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER?
A: NOT THAT I REMEMBER, SIR.
Q: DID YOU CALL THE STAR?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: DID YOU CALL THE GLOBE?
A: I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT MAGAZINE, SIR. I'VE NEVER SEEN IT.
Q: BUT YOU HAVE SEEN THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER, CORRECT?
A: I DON'T BUY THOSE NEWSPAPERS, SIR. I BUY MY LA PINON.
Q: BUT YOU HAVE SEEN THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR. OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
MR. DARDEN: SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T BUY IT. I ASKED HER IF SHE HAD SEEN IT.
THE COURT: RIGHT. YOU CAN CLARIFY. OVERRULED.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU'VE SEEN THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER IN THE STORES, RIGHT?
A: I DON'T KNOW. I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT. I DON'T KNOW WHAT COLOR IT WOULD BE.
I DON'T KNOW. I'M SORRY.
Q: WELL, DID YOU EVER DISCUSS SELLING YOUR STORY TO A REPORTER FROM THE
NATIONAL ENQUIRER?
THE INTERPRETER: THE ANSWER WAS NEVER.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: NEVER?
A: NEVER, SIR.
Q: YOU NEVER DISCUSSED RECEIVING $5,000 FROM THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER OR THE
STAR?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR.
THE WITNESS: I WOULDN'T BE HERE --
THE INTERPRETER: I AM SORRY. I CAN'T HEAR THE RULING.
THE WITNESS: I WOULDN'T BE HERE ANYMORE, SIR. WITH $5,000, I WOULD NO
LONGER BE HERE, SIR.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, WHAT IF YOU WERE GIVEN $5,000 TO STAY HERE?
A: I'M NOT HERE, SIR. I LEAVE AND I GET LOST. GOD KNOWS -- WHO KNOWS WHERE.
Q: MISS LOPEZ, ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOU TOLD SYLVIA GUERRERO THAT YOU WERE
GOING TO BE PAID TO TESTIFY IN THIS CASE?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: AND ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOU TOLD SYLVIA GUERRERO THAT IF SHE WOULD SAY
THAT SHE SAW THE BRONCO, THAT SHE COULD ALSO GET PAID $5,000?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER HAVING SAID THAT, SIR.
Q: SO YOU COULD HAVE TOLD HER THAT?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER HAVING SAID IT, SIR.
Q: DID YOU TELL HER THAT?
Q: DID YOU TELL HER THAT?
MR. DARDEN: WOULD YOUR HONOR INSTRUCT THE WITNESS TO ANSWER THE
QUESTION DIRECTLY? I MEAN AT THIS --
THE COURT: COUNSEL, SHE'S INDICATED SHE DOESN'T REMEMBER HAVING SAID
SOMETHING LIKE THAT. UNDER 1235 AND 770 AND THE CASE LAW THAT DEALS WITH
THIS, YOU CAN MAKE THE APPROPRIATE MOTION IF YOU HAVE PRIOR INCONSISTENT
STATEMENTS, AND IT'S UP TO THE COURT TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THE
COURT BELIEVES THAT ANSWER.
MR. DARDEN: CAN WE HAVE A MOMENT? MAY I HAVE A MOMENT?
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, YOU UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT HERE IS SOMEONE BRIBING A WITNESS, CORRECT?
A: YES.
Q: THAT'S A SERIOUS MATTER, CORRECT?
A: OF COURSE, YES.
Q: OKAY. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN A WITNESS IN ANY OTHER CASE?
THE COURT: I AM SORRY.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: THANK YOU.
THE WITNESS: NO, SIR. AND PERHAPS IT WILL BE THE LAST TIME.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SO IF SOMEONE OFFERED YOU $5,000, THAT'S NOT THE TYPE OF
THING YOU WOULD FORGET, IS IT?
A: I DON'T THINK THAT YOU CAN FORGET THAT, SIR.
Q: AND IF SOMEONE OFFERED YOU $5,000 TO TESTIFY FALSELY, YOU WOULDN'T
FORGET THAT EITHER, WOULD YOU?
A: OF COURSE NOT.
Q: AND IF YOU TOLD SOMEONE THAT YOU HAD BEEN OFFERED MONEY TO TESTIFY,
YOU WOULD REMEMBER THAT, WOULDN'T YOU?
A: OF COURSE, YES.
Q: DID YOU TELL SYLVIANNE YOU WERE GOING TO BE PAID $5,000 TO TESTIFY IN THIS
CASE?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: OH, SO NOW YOU REMEMBER?
MR. COCHRAN: WELL, THAT'S A DIFFERENT QUESTION. THAT'S A DIFFERENT
QUESTION. THAT'S ARGUMENTATIVE.
MR. DARDEN: THAT IS THE SAME QUESTION.
THE COURT: HOLD ON.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. OBJECTION OVERRULED. PROCEED.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SO NOW YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU DIDN'T TELL SYLVIA --
THE COURT: YES. SUSTAINED. MAY I SEE COUNSEL WITHOUT THE REPORTER?
(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. COUNSEL, LET'S PROCEED.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, WE SHOULD PROBABLY -- CAN WE PUT THIS LAST
THING ON THE RECORD AS SOON AS POSSIBLE?
THE COURT: AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU. THE CONVERSATION?
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU TOLD US THAT YOU WERE INTERVIEWED TWICE BY MR. BILL,
CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND THE SECOND INTERVIEW TOOK PLACE AT MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND WAS MR. BILL PRESENT AT THAT SECOND INTERVIEW?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: DID YOU DRIVE YOURSELF TO THE SECOND INTERVIEW?
THE COURT: WOULD YOU USE THE MICROPHONE, MR. DARDEN?
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. AND SOMEONE WENT WITH YOU, CORRECT?
Q: DID SYLVIA GO WITH YOU?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF SHE WENT WITH ME, SIR.
Q: DID YOU EVER TAKE SYLVIA OVER TO MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE WITH YOU?
Q: DID YOU EVER GO TO MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE WITH SYLVIA?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF I TOOK HER WITH ME OR NOT, SIR.
Q: BUT YOU TOLD SYLVIA THAT YOU WERE GOING TO MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE,
CORRECT?
A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF I TALKED TO HER -- IF I TOLD HER. I DON'T KNOW.
Q: DID YOU TELL SYLVIA THAT THE LAWYERS WOULD GIVE HER $5,000 IF SHE
TESTIFIED?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. WHAT LAWYERS? OBJECT TO THE
QUESTION.
MR. DARDEN: WE'LL GET THERE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU NEVER TOLD HER ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
A: NO, SIR.
Q: HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN SYLVIA?
Q: BUT YOU'VE KNOWN HER A COUPLE OF YEARS, CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: AND YOU AND SHE ARE FRIENDS, CORRECT?
A: WELL, I THINK WE USED TO BE.
Q: OKAY. AND SHE NEVER DID ANYTHING WRONG TO YOU BEFORE, CORRECT?
A: NO. AND I DIDN'T NEITHER.
Q: CAN YOU THINK OF ANY REASON WHY SYLVIA MIGHT SAY THAT YOU TOLD HER
SHE COULD MAKE $5,000 BY TESTIFYING UNLESS IT WAS TRUE?
A: NO, SIR. SHE DIDN'T TELL ME. I NEVER TOLD HER.
Q: YOU TOLD US EARLIER THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW THE AGE OF THE DOG?
THE COURT: I AM SORRY. MADAM INTERPRETER?
THE INTERPRETER: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR. WE'RE HAVING A CONFERENCE.
THE COURT: YEAH.
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU TESTIFIED THIS MORNING, YOU TOLD US THAT YOU
DID NOT TELL MR. BILL ANYTHING ABOUT SYLVIA DURING YOUR FIRST INTERVIEW,
CORRECT?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: OKAY. AND YOU TOLD US THAT YOU ONLY HAD TWO INTERVIEWS WITH HIM?
A: THAT'S WHAT I REMEMBER, SIR.
Q: COULD YOU HAVE HAD THREE INTERVIEWS WITH MR. PAVELIC?
A: MAYBE, SIR. YOU SAID THAT TO ME, FIVE TIMES OR SIX TIMES.
Q: SO YOU RECALL -- YOU RECALL MY ASKING YOU THAT FIVE OR SIX TIMES, DO
YOU?
A: THERE YOU TOLD ME.
Q: BY THE WAY, WHAT IS YOUR TRUE AND CORRECT NAME?
A: WHY DO YOU WANT MY TRUE NAME?
Q: THIS IS A COURT OF LAW.
A: I KNOW.
Q: AND I'M A LAWYER.
A: OKAY.
Q: AND I'M ASKING THE QUESTIONS.
A: ROSE MARIA LOPEZ.
Q: HAVE YOU EVER GONE BY THE NAME OF MARIA REYES?
A: I -- THAT WAY IN MY BIRTH CERTIFICATE, BUT THEY TELL ME HERE THAT THOSE BE
TWO LAST NAMES.
Q: SO YOU'RE ALSO KNOWN AS MARIA REYES THEN?
A: YES. YES, SIR. I'VE ALREADY SAID SO.
Q: OKAY. ARE YOU KNOWN BY ANY OTHER NAME?
A: NOT THAT I KNOW.
Q: HOW ABOUT MARTINEZ?
A: MARTINEZ BECAUSE OF MY FATHER.
Q: AND LOPEZ BECAUSE OF WHAT?
A: FOR MY MOTHER.
Q: OKAY. AND REYES BECAUSE OF WHAT?
A: BECAUSE THAT'S THE NAME, SIR.
Q: DID YOU PICK THAT NAME, MARIA REYES?
A: SIR, HOW COULD I CHOOSE THAT NAME IF WHEN I WAS BORN I COULDN'T TALK.
Q: OKAY. DID YOU CHOOSE MARTINEZ AND LOPEZ?
A: I WOULD HAVE TO ASK MY FATHER.
Q: OKAY. WELL, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THIS. I KNOW YOU WERE A CHILD WHEN
YOU WERE BORN, BUT WHAT WAS YOUR BIRTH DATE?
A: JANUARY THE 6TH, SIR.
Q: WHAT YEAR WERE YOU BORN?
A: DO I HAVE TO TELL THE WHOLE WORLD MY AGE? I WOULD NOT LIKE THAT. ALL OF
US WOMEN LIE ABOUT OUR AGE BECAUSE WE DON'T LIKE TO ADMIT IT.
Q: WHAT YEAR WERE YOU BORN?
A: I AM SORRY.
MR. COCHRAN: COULD SHE WRITE IT OUT?
THE COURT: HAVE HER WRITE IT OUT.
THE INTERPRETER: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR.
(CONFERENCE BETWEEN THE WITNESS AND THE INTERPRETER.)
(BRIEF PAUSE.)
THE COURT: YOU CAN ASK HER IF IT'S THE SAME AS ON THE APPLICATION, PEOPLE'S
-- THE UNEMPLOYMENT APPLICATION.
MR. DARDEN: PARDON, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: ASK HER IF IT'S THE SAME YEAR AS ON THE UNEMPLOYMENT
APPLICATION, THE DOB.
THE INTERPRETER: YOUR HONOR, WE HAVE -- THE INTERPRETERS HAVE A
COMMENT AND IT HAS TO DO WITH THE CLARITY OF THE TRANSLATION.
THE COURT: YES? WHAT IS THE COMMENT?
THE INTERPRETER: IT IS OUR CONSENSUS THAT THE NAME REYES WOULD -- COULD
BE SOME SORT OF A HOLY NAME BECAUSE ON JANUARY THE 6TH IS THE DAY OF THE
THREE WISE MEN, AND SOMETIMES IN -- REYES MEANS KING OR KINGS. AND
SOMETIMES, IT IS A SPANISH CUSTOM TO NAME -- A TRADITION TO NAME PEOPLE
AFTER THEIR PATRON SAINT OF SORTS.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. YOU CAN TAKE THAT UP ON CROSS -- SORRY -- REDIRECT.
THE INTERPRETER: BUT NOT NECESSARILY THE LAST NAME.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. DARDEN, DOB, PLEASE.
Q: BY MR. DARDEN: LET ME SHOW YOU THE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
APPLICATION YOU FILLED OUT. IT'S MARKED PEOPLE'S 87. DO YOU SEE THE BIRTH
DATE INDICATED ON THAT FORM?
A: YES, SIR.
Q: IS THAT YOUR TRUE BIRTH DATE?
A: YES, SIR. AND IF YOU WANT TO, I CAN SHOW YOU MY BIRTH CERTIFICATE, SIR.
Q: OKAY. WHY DON'T YOU SHOW ME YOUR DRIVER'S LICENSE INSTEAD.
A: BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE IT WITH ME, SIR.
Q: WELL, THE BIRTH DATE YOU WROTE ON THAT FORM IS DIFFERENT FROM THE
BIRTH DATE ON YOUR DRIVER'S LICENSE, CORRECT?
A: THAT IS TRUE, SIR.
Q: AND SO ON DIFFERENT FORMS ON DIFFERENT OCCASIONS, YOU GO BY
DIFFERENT NAMES AND DIFFERENT BIRTH DATES, CORRECT?
MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. IT'S UNFAIR BASED ON
--
THE COURT: HOLD ON. LET ME SEE COUNSEL AT THE SIDEBAR WITH THE COURT
REPORTER, PLEASE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE'RE OVER AT THE SIDEBAR. COUNSEL, THE REASON I
ASKED COUNSEL TO APPROACH SIDEBAR IS THAT DRIVER'S LICENSE APPLICATIONS
TO MY RECOLLECTION ARE SIGNED UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY. SO WE MAY HAVE
JUST HEARD AN ADMISSION OF A VIOLATION OF PENAL CODE SECTION 118. AND THE
VEHICLE CODE SECTION, IT REQUIRES THESE THINGS BE DONE UNDER PENALTY OF
PERJURY. SO I'M A LITTLE CONCERNED AT THIS POINT.
MR. DARDEN: WELL, IF SHE HAS A DRIVER'S LICENSE WITH A DIFFERENT DOB, THEN
YOU ARE RIGHT; SUCH THINGS ARE SIGNED UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY.
MR. COCHRAN: WE DON'T HAVE ANY DOCUMENT TO THAT EFFECT. I DON'T KNOW
ANYTHING ABOUT THIS.
THE COURT: I'M JUST TELLING YOU, I'M CONCERNED BECAUSE I ASSUME THAT MR.
DARDEN IS ASKING THIS QUESTION IN GOOD FAITH, HAVING PROBABLY RUN A DMV,
PROBABLY HAVING RUN A CII, PROBABLY HAVING RUN THE NORMAL BACKGROUND
INFORMATION. AND IF THE DMV HAS A LICENSE ISSUED WITH A DIFFERENT DOB,
THAT WOULD CAUSE ME TO BELIEVE THAT PERHAPS SHE FILLED OUT A DECLARATION
FOR THE DRIVER'S LICENSE, WHICH IS AN APPLICATION MADE UNDER PENALTY OF
PERJURY, AND MAY HAVE LIED ABOUT HER BIRTH DATE. IT'S NOT SOMETHING WE
NORMALLY PROSECUTE A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE FOR, BUT I'M JUST SAYING, IT'S
HAPPENED BEFORE, ESPECIALLY IF IT'S A DIFFERENT NAME. I'M JUST RAISING THE
ISSUE SINCE SHE HAS --
MS. HAMBURGER: DOES SHE HAVE A DRIVER'S LICENSE IN A DIFFERENT NAME?
MR. DARDEN: NO, NOT IN A DIFFERENT NAME. JUST HAS A DIFFERENT BIRTHDATE.
MS. HAMBURGER: HAS A DIFFERENT BIRTH YEAR I BELIEVE.
MR. COCHRAN: WHAT ARE THE DATES, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: WHAT'S THE DATES?
MR. DARDEN: SINCE I DON'T KNOW THE DATE ON THE APPLICATION, IT'S SEVEN
YEARS DIFFERENT.
THE COURT: OKAY.
MR. COCHRAN: WHAT ARE THE DATES I AM TRYING TO FIND OUT.
THE COURT: IT'S ON THE UNEMPLOYMENT APPLICATION. IT'S A DIFFERENCE BY
SEVEN YEARS. OKAY. I'M JUST RAISING THE ISSUE THAT THERE'S A POSSIBILITY OF
SOME PROBLEMS THERE. THAT'S ALL I AM DOING.
MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OFFER OF PROOF? YOUR HONOR, WE DON'T HAVE
ANY OF THOSE DOCUMENTS.
THE COURT: I AM ASSUMING MR. DARDEN HAS -- IS HOLDING THE COMPUTER READ-
OUT RIGHT HERE.
MR. COCHRAN: WE DON'T HAVE IT, YOUR HONOR. I'M SAYING WE DON'T HAVE IT.
MS. CLARK: NOW YOU DO.
MS. HAMBURGER: WELL, IN THAT CASE, SINCE NOW WE DO, YOU HONOR, AND WE
HAVEN'T HAD BEFORE, I WOULD LODGE AN OBJECTION ON THAT PART.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU WANT TO CONSULT WITH YOUR CLIENT?
MS. HAMBURGER: BESIDES THAT, I WOULD LIKE A RECESS TO CONSULT WITH MY
CLIENT AND MR. JONES.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE'LL TAKE A BRIEF RECESS. HOLD ON. LET ME GO BACK IN
OPEN COURT, AND WE'LL TAKE A BRIEF RECESS. WHY DON'T YOU STAY THERE.
MS. HAMBURGER: I WOULD STRENUOUSLY OBJECT NOT HAVING THAT
INFORMATION FURNISHED BEFORE, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: NOTED. WHICH IS WHY WE STOPPED AS SOON AS I HEARD IT.
MS. CLARK: THIS IS IMPEACHMENT. SHE HAS THE OPTION TO TAKE THE FIFTH OR
NOT.
MR. COCHRAN: ALSO, YOUR HONOR, WITH REGARD TO -- YOUR HONOR, ONLY ONE
PERSON.
THE COURT: WELL, HOLD ON. WHAT I DID IS, WHEN I SAW THE POTENTIAL, WE
STOPPED.
MS. HAMBURGER: THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP, COUNSELOR, BUT I'M GOING TO
TAKE THAT --
THE COURT: WE WILL TAKE A RECESS.
MR. COCHRAN: I THINK THE COURT INTERPRETERS CAN EXPLAIN THOSE NAMES. I
DON'T THINK THOSE ARE FALSE NAMES. I THINK THERE'S AN EXPLANATION.
THE COURT: COUNSEL, THERE'S A LOT OF EXPLANATIONS THAT I AM AWARE OF,
WORKING IN THIS COURTHOUSE FOR --
MR. COCHRAN: I'M NOT SURE EVERYONE IS AWARE OF THAT.
THE COURT: THAT'S SOMETHING WE CAN EXPLAIN OR YOU CAN ASK ON REDIRECT.
I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT THE NAME. I'M WORRIED ABOUT THE OTHER PROBLEMS,
MINOR AS IT MAY BE. STAY THERE.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. COUNSEL, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A BRIEF RECESS TO
ALLOW MISS HAMBURGER TO CONSULT WITH MISS LOPEZ AND MR. JONES. YOUR
ATTORNEY NEEDS TO TALK TO YOU FOR A MOMENT, MISS LOPEZ. WE'LL TAKE A
RECESS. LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU'RE DONE, MISS HAMBURGER.
(RECESS.)
THE COURT: BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. ALL THE PARTIES ARE
AGAIN PRESENT. THERE IS MR. JONES. MR. JONES, IS YOUR CLIENT AVAILABLE?
MR. JONES: SHE IS IN THE CONFERENCE ROOM, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: IF YOU WILL ESCORT HER OUT, PLEASE.
MR. JONES: WHILE SHE IS COMING OUT, COULD WE DEAL WITH MARGUERITE
SIMPSON THOMAS?
THE COURT: YES. THAT MATTER IS ON CALENDAR FOR TOMORROW. IT APPEARS TO
ME THAT THE CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION THAT WE HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN FOR
THE PAST SEVERAL HOURS IS GOING TO NOT CONCLUDE THIS EVENING AND I WANT
TO FINISH IT, IF WE HAVE TO GO OVER UNTIL TOMORROW MORNING, AS SOON AS
POSSIBLE. COUNSEL, WHAT I PROPOSE TO DO IS IF YOU WILL REPRESENT TO ME THAT
YOUR CLIENT, MARGUERITE SIMPSON THOMAS, WILL BE -- WILL BE AVAILABLE UPON
24 HOURS' NOTICE TO COUNSEL AND THAT YOU WILL MAKE HER AVAILABLE, THEN I
WILL TAKE THE MATTER FOR TOMORROW OFF CALENDAR.
MR. JONES: I WOULD APPRECIATE THAT, YOUR HONOR, AND I WOULD SO
REPRESENT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I WILL ACCEPT THAT REPRESENTATION ON BEHALF OF THE
COURT. IS THAT AGREEABLE TO THE PEOPLE?
MS. CLARK: YES, IT IS, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: IS THAT AGREEABLE TO THE DEFENSE?
MR. COCHRAN: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SO ORDERED.
MS. LEWIS: FOR TECHNICAL REASONS TOMORROW I GUESS THE COURT WILL ISSUE
AND HOLD THE BODY ATTACHMENT.
THE COURT: ISSUE AND HOLD A BENCH WARRANT, BUT I WON'T DO THAT UNTIL
TOMORROW MORNING, BUT REMIND ME TO DO THAT TECHNICALLY AND WE WILL
WAIVE MR. JONES' APPEARANCE FOR THAT PURPOSE.
MR. JONES: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. ALL RIGHT. AS FAR AS MISS ROSA
LOPEZ, SHE IS AGAIN PRESENT BEFORE THE COURT. AND COUNSEL, WHAT IS YOUR
PLEASURE AS FAR AS CONCLUDING THE CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION? MISS CLARK?
MS. CLARK: WELL, YOUR HONOR, I UNDERSTOOD THAT ALL COUNSEL WERE
INTERESTED IN RECESSING FOR THE EVENING AT THIS TIME AND RESUMING
TOMORROW MORNING; IS THAT CORRECT?
MR. JONES: THAT IS MY UNDERSTANDING, YOUR HONOR, AND I HAVE SPOKEN TO
MRS. LOPEZ AND SHE IS AGREEABLE TO RETURNING TOMORROW MORNING AT 8:45.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS LOPEZ, YOU ARE ORDERED TO RETURN HERE
TOMORROW MORNING AT 8:45. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE ORDER, MA'AM?
THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. YOU ARE EXCUSED UNTIL TOMORROW MORNING AT 8:45.
THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
THE WITNESS: WITH PLEASURE.
(ROSA LOPEZ EXITS THE COURTROOM.)
THE COURT: THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. MR. SHAPIRO, YOU WANTED TO MAKE ONE
COMMENT FOR THE RECORD BEFORE WE CONCLUDE? WITNESS BRIBERY, THAT SORT
OF THING?
MS. LEWIS: $5,000.
THE COURT: I'M SORRY, I THOUGHT YOU HAD INDICATED --
MR. SHAPIRO: MAY WE APPROACH FOR A MOMENT?
THE COURT: SURE.
(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. COUNSEL, TOMORROW MORNING -- TOMORROW MORNING
I WOULD LIKE TO SPEND OUR ENTIRE EFFORTS ON THIS MATTER. WE HAVE,
HOWEVER, A MOTION FOR DISCOVERY OF A PITCHESS MOTION REGARDING
DETECTIVE FUHRMAN. WE HAVE A MOTION TO QUASH SUBPOENAS REGARDING
CATHY RANDA AND MICHELLE ABUDRAHM, IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN. MRS.
ROBERTSON, WOULD YOU CALL COUNSEL FOR EACH OF THOSE MATTERS AND
ADVISE THEM THAT THE COURT IS GOING TO BE CONTINUING THOSE MATTERS OVER
UNTIL NEXT WEEK, AND IF THEY WILL GIVE ME A DATE THAT IS CONVENIENT TO
THEIR CALENDAR NEXT WEEK, WE WILL TAKE IT UP NEXT WEEK, BECAUSE I WANT TO
DEVOTE THE FULL DAY TOMORROW TO FINISHING THIS MATTER AND GETTING IT IN
THE CAN. ALSO, DEPUTY JEX, PUT THE JURY ON HOLD. ALL RIGHT. ANYTHING ELSE
WE NEED TO PUT ON THE RECORD BEFORE WE TAKE OUR RECESS FOR THE EVENING?
ALL RIGHT. WE WILL STAND IN RECESS TOMORROW MORNING 8:45. THANK YOU,
COUNSEL.
MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. (AT 5:19 P.M. AN ADJOURNMENT WAS
TAKEN UNTIL, FRIDAY, MARCH 3, 1995, 9:00 A.M.)
SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, )
)
PLAINTIFF, )
)
) VS. ) NO. BA097211
)
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, )
)
)
DEFENDANT. )
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
THURSDAY, MARCH 2, 1995
VOLUME 98
PAGES 16780 THROUGH 17003, INCLUSIVE
(PAGES 16770 THROUGH 16779, INCLUSIVE, SEALED)
APPEARANCES: (SEE PAGE 2)
JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR #4588
CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR #2378 OFFICIAL REPORTERS
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PEOPLE: GIL GARCETTI, DISTRICT ATTORNEY
BY: MARCIA R. CLARK, WILLIAM W.
HODGMAN, CHRISTOPHER A. DARDEN,
CHERI A. LEWIS, ROCKNE P. HARMON,
GEORGE W. CLARKE, SCOTT M. GORDON
LYDIA C. BODIN, HANK M. GOLDBERG,
ALAN YOCHELSON AND DARRELL S.
MAVIS, DEPUTIES
18-000 CRIMINAL COURTS BUILDING
210 WEST TEMPLE STREET
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90012
FOR THE DEFENDANT: ROBERT L. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
SARA L. CAPLAN, ESQUIRE
2121 AVENUE OF THE STARS
19TH FLOOR
JOHNNIE L. COCHRAN, JR., ESQUIRE
BY: CARL E. DOUGLAS, ESQUIRE
SHAWN SNIDER CHAPMAN, ESQUIRE
4929 WILSHIRE BOULEVARD
SUITE 1010
GERALD F. UELMEN, ESQUIRE
ROBERT KARDASHIAN, ESQUIRE
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, ESQUIRE
F. LEE BAILEY, ESQUIRE
BARRY SCHECK, ESQUIRE
ROBERT D. BLASIER, ESQUIRE
ALSO PRESENT: CARL JONES, ESQUIRE
MAYA Z. HAMBURGER, ESQUIRE
I N D E X
INDEX FOR VOLUME 98 PAGES 16780 - 17003
-----------------------------------------------------
DAY DATE SESSION PAGE VOL.
THURSDAY MARCH 2, 1995 A.M. 16780 98
P.M. 16877 98
-----------------------------------------------------
LEGEND:
MS. CLARK - MC
MR. HODGMAN - H
MR. DARDEN D
MR. KAHN - K
MR. GOLDBERG - GB
MR. GORDON - G
MR. SHAPIRO - S
MR. COCHRAN - C
MR. DOUGLAS - CD
MR. BAILEY - B
MR. UELMEN - U
MR. SCHECK - BS
MR. NEUFELD - N
-----------------------------------------------------
CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES
DEFENSE (1335)
WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS VOL.
LOPEZ, ROSA MARIA
(RESUMED) 16783C 16793D 98
(RESUMED) 16879D
-----------------------------------------------------
ALPHABETICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES
DEFENSE (1335)
WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS VOL.
LOPEZ, ROSA MARIA
(RESUMED) 16783C 16793D 98
(RESUMED) 16879D
EXHIBITS
PEOPLE'S FOR IN EXHIBIT IDENTIFICATION EVIDENCE
PAGE VOL. PAGE VOL.
87 - 6-PAGE DOCUMENT 16808 98
UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE APPLICATION FOR
ROSA LOPEZ
88 - 2-PAGE STATEMENT 16856 98
FROM WILLIAM PAVELIC DATED JULY 29, 1994
89 - VIDEO CASSETTE 16890 98
OF TELEVISION NEWS INTERVIEW WITH ROSA LOPEZ
90 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 16906 98
DETECTIVE OTIS MARLOW, RETIRED
91 - 6-PAGE DOCUMENT 16937 98
GTE PHONE RECORD FOR THE TELPHONE
NUMBER (310) 472-0900
-----------------------------------------------------
PEOPLE'S FOR IN EXHIBIT IDENTIFICATION EVIDENCE
PAGE VOL. PAGE VOL.
1046 - VIDEO OF 16789 98
DETECTIVE MARK FUHRMAN
1046-A - PHOTOGRAPH OF 16789 98
DETECTIVE MARK FUHRMAN (COMPUTER PRINTOUT)

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