Hillsborough County Administrator v. Hillsborough County Civil Service Board

Filing # 81416480 E-Filed 11/29/2018 04:22:05 PM
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT

IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, FLORIDA
APPELLATE DIVISION
HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY
COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR, CASE NO.: 18-CA-11650
DIVISION: K
Petitioner,
v. Lower Tribunal Case No.:18-834

(Hillsborough Civil Service Board)
HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY
CIVIL SERVICE BOARD,
Respondent.
________________________________/
PETITION FOR WRIT OF CERTIORARI

Petitioner, the Office of the Hillsborough County Administrator (“the County”), by and
through its undersigned counsel, and pursuant to Fla. R. App. P. Rules 9.030(c)(3), 9.100(c) and
9.190(b)(3), seeks a writ of certiorari to quash a quasi-judicial order of the Respondent
Hillsborough County Civil Service Board (“CSB”), in which the CSB reinstated County employee
Travenski Lawson to his position as a Residential Services Coordinator for the County’s
Children’s Services Department.
In support thereof, Petitioner states as follows:
STANDARD OF REVIEW
Certiorari is available to review quasi-judicial orders of local agencies and boards not made
subject to the Administrative Procedures Act, when no other method of review is provided. Haines
City Community Development v. Heggs, 658 So.2d 523, 530 (Fla. 1995). This first-tier certiorari
review is not discretionary but rather is a matter of right. Broward County v. G.B.V. Int’l., 787
So.2d 838, 843 (Fla. 2001). The appropriate standard of review on a petition for certiorari requires
the Court to determine whether (1) the County was provided procedural due process by the CSB;
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(2) the essential requirements of law were observed during the proceedings before the CSB; and
(3) the administrative findings and judgment by the CSB were supported by competent substantial
evidence. Florida Mobile Home Relocation Corp. v. City of South Daytona, 80 So. 3d 1061 (Fla.
1st DCA 2012); Broward County, 787 So.2d at 843.
Statement of Facts
On March 3, 2018, Lawson slapped a thirteen year old child (A-49) while on duty and
supervising children for the Children’s Services Department of Petitioner Hillsborough County.
Lawson was in charge of the supervising staff on the night of the incident.
After an evidentiary hearing the CSB1 voted to reinstate Lawson to his position supervising
children and their caregivers.
This Petition presents the County’s concerns that during the CSB hearing the CSB denied
the County its right to procedural due process.
The County was denied procedural due process by the CSB
In two ways, the CSB violated the County’s procedural due process rights during the
hearing. First, after the CSB had already decided an issue with a final vote in favor of the County,
over the County’s objection the CSB Chair lobbied the rest of the CSB to re-vote, which resulted
in the County losing the case. Second, the CSB’s General Counsel served as legal counsel for the
CSB as well as sitting as the evidentiary judge, assuming authority outside the bounds of the
General Counsel’s statutory duties and authority.
1
The Hillsborough County Civil Service Board (“CSB”) was created by Act of the Florida
Legislature. The CSB promulgated Rules governing the conduct of evidentiary hearings.
1. The CSB re-voted on an issue that was already decided.
After a lengthy evidentiary hearing the CSB’s six members voted 3-3 to confirm Lawson’s
termination for slapping the child. The CSB’s Rules delineate a tie vote results in a ruling in favor
of the non-moving party, here, the County.2 Then the Chair, declaring that all of the witnesses had
“zero credibility” and stating that the County had failed to meet its burden of proving its case
“beyond a reasonable doubt3” (A-311), asked the other board members to reconsider their vote so
the CSB would not have to “send that man home for him to tell his five kids that he’s no longer
got a job with the county.” (A-331).
According to the CSB’s Rules, the CSB may ONLY decide one of two things. First, the
CSB may decide that the employee violated a County rule or regulation. Second, the CSB may
decide that the employee did not violate a County rule or regulation, thus vacating the County’s
disciplinary action and placing the employee back in his or her former position. The CSB has no
authority to return an employee to a different position.
The Chair wanted to reinstate Lawson to a job with the County but didn’t want him to be
returned to his former job:
“Children’s Services can get what they want by making sure that Mr. Lawson is no
longer employed with Children’s Services, and I think Mr. Lawson can get what he
2
“In the event of a three/three tie as to any rule or policy—in other words, three votes
finding cause and three votes finding no cause—in that event, the appellant [Lawson] does not
prevail because the appellant has the burden of proving his case by a preponderance of the
evidence, and so a three/three tie is resolved in favor of Hillsborough County.” (A-22) See also
CSB Rule 15.20(3). (A-404)
3
It may reasonably be inferred from the Chair’s comments that the Chair of the CSB was
not aware that the CSB’s standard of review was “preponderance of the evidence” and not
“reasonable doubt”. Rule 15.20(1), CSB Rules. The Chair seemed to view this case as a criminal
trial, with the County as prosecutor, rather than as a quasi-judicial administrative hearing, requiring
Lawson to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that he did not violate any of the County’s
Rules. Notably, the Board’s legal advisor did not correct the instruction.
wants by making sure that HR and the county places him in another division within
our county.”
(A-312).
In fact, the County and Children’s Services have no such authority. The Chair went so far as to
state that:
“…if the decision here tonight were simply to place him back at Lake Mag [referring
to the location where Lawson worked when he hit the child] or not place him back at
Lake Mag, I would decide not to place him back at Lake Mag, but that’s not the
decision we have.” (emphasis supplied)
(A-313).
The CSB’s Rules, which govern and limit the CSB’s authority, require that the County
reinstate Lawson to his former position in Children’s Services:
“If the conduct which is proven does not establish a violation of the Civil Service
Rules, or if the action taken is found not to be for just cause, the action must be
vacated in its entirety and the appellant placed in the same position that he or she
would have been in had the action not been taken.”
Rule 15.22(1), CSB Rules (emphasis supplied) (A-405)
Thus the Chair’s analysis that the County need not return Lawson to his former job, though
it appeared to sway his fellow CSB members, was incorrect as a matter of law. Because of the
CSB’s decision to reinstate Lawson, the County now has no legal authority to do anything but
reinstate Lawson to his former position supervising the staff which supervises children and
supervising children himself.
After the Chair’s lobbying for reconsideration, the CSB then re-voted to reverse the CSB’s
previous decision to dismiss Lawson, this time voting 4-2 to reinstate Lawson to his position
supervising children and their caregivers.
The CSB’s decision to re-vote after already voting in favor of the County’s position is a
violation of the County’s procedural due process rights. The record reflects that the CSB initially
voted 3-3 to affirm that the County had just cause to dismiss Lawson for a violation of its Rules.
Subsequently, the CSB re-voted. This re-vote was analogous to having the jury in a civil trial
finish its deliberations with a verdict, having the Clerk read the verdict, having the jury polled, and
then having the judge decide, no, that’s not the right verdict, and sending the jury back in to
reconsider their decision. The County properly objected twice to a re-vote of a question that had
already been decided by the CSB, but the County’s objections were disregarded. Over the
County’s objection, the CSB re-voted without a motion for reconsideration, this time deciding 4-
2 in favor of reinstating Lawson. But for the revote, the CSB hearing would effectively have been
over and Lawson’s dismissal by the County would have been affirmed by the CSB.
The CSB voted 3-3 regarding Rule 11.2(26), which means the County prevailed and
Lawson’s dismissal was upheld. (A-322-324). After the 3-3 vote had resolved the issue with
finality, the Chair started lobbying the “nay” voters for a re-vote:
“I want to go back to 11.2(26), and I’m going to appeal to the three nays because you
understand if that vote stands, the appellate [sic, referring to Mr. Lawson] loses his
entire case?”
(A-324).
In response, the County’s attorney, Ms. Green, objected, but her objection was overruled by the
CSB’s General Counsel (A-324).
2. The CSB’s General Counsel exercised discretion reflecting an unconstitutional

delegation of the CSB’s legislatively-granted authority
As the name “General Counsel” implies, the CSB’s General Counsel is supposed to be the
CSB’s legal counsel, not a judge. There is no authority anywhere in the Civil Service Act which
authorizes the CSB to appoint its general counsel as an arbiter of the evidentiary rules. Yet the
General Counsel repeatedly made evidentiary objections during the hearing and ruled on his own
objections, acting as the judge of the evidence during the hearing:
“MR. ZINOBER (the CSB’s General Counsel): I’m going to strike that testimony…”
(A-139).
_______
“MR. ZINOBER: I’m going to sustain an objection that I’m making” (A-193).
_______
“MR. ZINOBER: He can testify as to what evidence he considered to support his
findings. But in terms of assessing witness credibility, I’m not permitting that
question.” (A-193).
_______
“MR. CANASI (the CSB Chair): Any other questions for this witness?
MS. GREEN (the County’s attorney): Yes.
MR. ZINOBER: I think we’ve heard enough.
MS. GREEN: I do have another question.
MR. ZINOBER: Well, I think we’ve heard enough.
MS. GREEN: I think it’s important.
MR. ZINOBER: Based upon what?
MS. GREEN: Based upon discussion of the board members earlier in terms of delay
in process. Does that make sense?
MR. ZINOBER: One question…And there are no more questions after that.” (A-
209).
_______
“MR. ZINOBER: Let’s try to avoid leading even though Mr. Lawson is not a
lawyer…I’ve been very patient, but there’s been an awful lot of leading.” (A104-
105).
_______
“MS. GREEN: I’m going to object. That wasn’t the testimony.
MR. ZINOBER: I’m going to overrule the objection. Go ahead and answer the
question.” (A-123).
_______
“MS. GREEN: Objection again.
MR. ZINOBER: Overruled. Go ahead and answer the question.” (A-124)
_______
“MR. ZINOBER: I assume this witness is not going to be excused?
MS. GREEN: No. And I have another question.
MR. ZINOBER: I’m not going to just keep this process going. If you want to get
this on rebuttal, you can. But this witness is done for now. Thank you. Call your
next witness.” (A-124)
_______
“MR. ZINOBER: Excuse me. Ms. Green, are you impeaching your own witness?
MS. GREEN: Well, I’m attempting to refresh recollection.
MR. ZINOBER: But you’re not doing it correctly because what she told another
person is not proper refreshment of recollection. It’s not something that she wrote
down. It’s a hearsay statement made to a third party. You can’t use that to refresh
recollection.” (A-138)4.
Florida’s judicial system establishes a boundary between a lawyer and a judge within the
same proceeding. A lawyer should be a lawyer, and a judge should be a judge, and never the twain
shall meet.
For example, the Florida Code of Judicial Conduct provides:
“Practice of Law. A judge shall not practice law.” (Canon 5.G., Fla. Code of Jud.
Conduct).
The corollary to the above Canon would logically prohibit a lawyer from acting both as a
judge and as a lawyer simultaneously during the same quasi-judicial hearing.
4
This “ruling” by the CSB’s attorney, was incorrect as a matter of law. Wilcox v. State,
143 So.3d 359, 378-79 (Fla. 2014): “writings or objects used to refresh the memory of a witness
need not be admissible evidence.” Consequently, the CSB’s attorney denied the County’s attorney
an opportunity to refresh the recollection of a critical witness, further denying the County its rights
to procedural due process.
8
Article V, Section 1 of the Florida Constitution provides in relevant part:
“…administrative officers or bodies may be granted quasi-judicial power in matters

connected with the functions of their offices.”
Thus the authority of a quasi-judicial Board’s General Counsel must be “connected with
the functions of their offices”. Turning to the CSB Statute and Rules, there is very limited authority
granted to the CSB’s General Counsel within the Statute, but the CSB has enacted broad authority
to the General Counsel within its Rules.
The CSB is authorized by its enabling legislation to “contract for legal counsel as may be
needed…” Section 7(2)7, Civil Service Act of 2000. (A-363)
Well beyond the scope of “contract[ing] for legal counsel as may be needed,” within its
Rules the CSB has delegated broad powers to its General Counsel:
“Rule 15.1(3): The Board, acting in concert or through its Chair, may delegate certain
responsibilities to…the General Counsel from time to time…” (A-383).
“Rule 15.14(7): The General Counsel shall address all preliminary, non-dispositive
motions and make evidentiary rulings on any objections designated in the Pre-
Hearing Statement to the exhibits, documents or other documentary evidence offered
by either party, either at the Pre-Hearing Conference or thereafter…” (A-399).
“Rule 15.19(2): For guidance of the parties, evidentiary hearings ordinarily proceed
in the following sequence unless otherwise stipulated by the parties; or upon the
determination of the General Counsel or the Board it appears that a different
procedure or deviation from this procedure, shall be appropriate.” (emphasis
supplied) (A-403).
The CSB unconstitutionally delegated its authority, thus creating a hearing process where
the CSB’s General Counsel displaces and usurps the statutory authority of the CSB. City of Miami
Beach v. Fleetwood Hotel, Inc., 261 So.2d 801, 805 (Fla. 1972) (“Objective guidelines and
standards should appear expressly in the act or be within the realm of reasonable inference from
the language of the act where a delegation of power is involved…Unrestricted discretion in the
9
application of a law without appropriate guidelines and determining its meaning may not be
delegated by the City Council to an agency or to one person.”) As outlined above, the Legislature
gave the CSB specific authority to appoint its General Counsel, but the Legislature made no
provision for allowing the CSB’s General Counsel to serve as a judge during evidentiary hearings.
The CSB statute contemplates a hearing before the CSB, not before the General Counsel.
Yet the CSB’s Rules grant authority to the General Counsel to make evidentiary rulings, to rule
on motions and even unilaterally to change the Board’s rules if “it appears that a different
procedure or deviation from this procedure, shall be appropriate.” This grant of authority to the
General Counsel to make such ad hoc decisions in effect places the General Counsel in the role of
both attorney and judge, rather than in the proper role of counsel for the CSB.
In the Lawson proceeding, the General Counsel made evidentiary objections and then ruled
on his own objections. The General Counsel controlled the flow of the proceedings and whether
the testimony was heard. In practice, the General Counsel had the kind of unbridled discretion
that Florida Courts have determined constitutes an unlawful delegation. High Ridge Management
Corp. v. State, 354 So.2d 377 (Fla. 1978); Fleetwood Hotel, infra.
Thus the CSB has delegated to its General Counsel the broad authority to make evidentiary
rulings and even to change the CSB’s own procedures. This broad grant of authority within the
Rules outreaches the Statute’s authority allowing the Board to “contract for legal counsel as may
be needed.” The Legislature saw the need to allow the CSB to retain its own legal counsel. The
CSB has taken that authority and, within its enacted Rules, has broadened the authority of its legal
counsel so that instead of appointing a General Counsel, the CSB has in effect utilized its General
Counsel as an Administrative Law Judge. This dual role, not contemplated in Florida law, violates
the required separation between lawyer and judge. None of this was contemplated by the Civil
10
Service Act, and none of this was contemplated by Article V, Section 1’s authority to grant quasi-
judicial power. The quasi-judicial power properly belongs to the CSB, and that power cannot be
delegated to its General Counsel.
The Florida Attorney General has opined regarding dual attorney roles during
administrative hearings:
“…it is the practice in administrative disciplinary hearings that the attorney for the
board acts to collect all evidence favorable and unfavorable to both the board and the
cited person. He further advises the board and prosecutes on behalf of the board in
such hearings. The mixing of certain functions of the board’s single attorney in such
a proceeding may violate the guaranty of due process that must be afforded the
person while fully protecting the state’s interest.”
Op. Atty. Gen. 072-64 (1972) (emphasis supplied). Further:
“Florida courts have also recognized that such mixing of functions—one attorney in
a dual role—is a denial of due process of law as required by the Fourteenth
Amendment to the United States Constitution and Section 9, Declaration of Rights
of the Florida Constitution, in the cases of Metropolitan Dade County v. Florida
Processing Company, 218 So.2d 495 (Fla. 3d DCA 1969) and Corbett v. Churchwell,
215 So.2d 302 (Fla. 1968).”
Id.
The Attorney General Opinion admonishes about dual roles in a case involving an attorney
who wears both an advisory role and a prosecuting role. At bar, the roles served by the CSB’s
General Counsel are more disparate: the General Counsel acts as attorney and as judge. It follows
that if there should be concerns, as stated by the Attorney General and the cited case law, about
the dual roles served by an attorney who acts as advisor and prosecutor, then serving the dual roles
of attorney and judge should be an even more significant due process concern. See also, Brown
v. Walton County, 667 So.2d 376 (Fla. 1st DCA 1995) (procedural due process denied at a quasi
judicial proceeding where counsel acted as both an advocate and “proffered legal advice during
the hearing”); Cherry Communications v. Deason, 652 So.2d 803 (Fla. 1995) (“the playing field
11
appears to have been tilted” when the prosecutor was “invited into the deliberations and his advice
was acted upon; “this adjudicatory process ‘can hardly be characterized as an unbiased, critical
review’”).
Based upon these case authorities, Florida courts have noted significant due process
concerns where a quasi-judicial board’s attorney begins to act in more than an advisory capacity.
At bar, there is an even greater concern since the CSB’s General Counsel has acted in a judicial
capacity. For this reason, the County’s due process rights were violated and certiorari is
appropriate.
The CSB Departed from the Essential Requirements of Law.
“’Departure from the essential requirements of law’ is defined the same way across all uses
of certiorari review: a violation of a clearly established principle of law resulting in a miscarriage
of justice.” Lacretta Restaurant v. Zepeda, 115 So.3d 1091, 1093 (Fla. 1st DCA 2013).
There were two “miscarriages of justice” at bar. First, the CSB’s revote of a decided
question violated basic notions of due process. The revote was analogous to having the verdict
read and the jurors polled, and then sending the jury back to deliberate some more.
The revote never should have been allowed. The revote constituted a “do-over” after the
case was already decided, which prejudiced the County. A “do-over” under these circumstances
constitutes the kind of miscarriage of justice that violates the essential requirements of law,
specifically, the County’s right to a fair hearing. A writ is appropriate to reverse the decision of
the CSB as to Rule 11.2(26).
The second “miscarriage of justice” at bar was the CSB General Counsel’s striking of
evidence and testimony during the hearing without having the authority to do so. Because of the
General Counsel’s striking of evidence, the County lost the opportunity to present that evidence to
12
the CSB. This was another violation of the County’s due process rights that constituted a
“miscarriage of justice.” Because the County’s effort to present its case was impaired by the
General Counsel’s striking of evidence on several occasions, certiorari should be granted.
The administrative findings and judgment by the CSB were not supported by competent
substantial evidence.
The Court’s final determination on certiorari is whether the CSB’s ultimate findings and
judgment were not supported by competent substantial evidence. The Florida Supreme Court has
made clear that “the ‘competent substantial evidence’ standard cannot be used by a reviewing court
as a mechanism for exerting covert control over the policy determinations and factual findings of
the local agency.” Dusseau v. Metro Dade County, 794 So.2d 1275-76 (Fla. 2001).
The County’s argument on this point is that the absence of certain “stricken” evidence had
an impact on the case that the CSB was allowed to consider. The CSB’s administrative findings
and judgment were based upon the evidence that the CSB was allowed to hear. Yet some of the
evidence that the County sought to present was stricken by the CSB’s General Counsel. As
previously discussed the General Counsel had no authority to strike evidence or to make any
evidentiary rulings. By striking and restricting testimony at several stages of the case, the CSB
was not allowed to hear some evidence which may or may not have had an impact on their decision.
At this stage of the case it is not appropriate for this Court to weigh the question of whether the
stricken evidence may have impacted the CSB’s decision; the only issue at this stage for the Court
to consider is whether the CSB’s findings were supported by competent, substantial evidence.
In Newman v. State, 174 So.2d 479 (Fla. 2d DCA 1965), a defendant was found guilty
after a bench trial of disturbing the contents of a grave site. Newman filed a petition for certiorari,
which was granted. The Second DCA stated:
13
“…questions of the weight and probative force of conflicting testimony ordinarily
may not be considered; and mere errors of procedure that do not obviously prejudice
fundamental rights, to the material injury of complaining parties, may not cause a
judgment to be quashed on certiorari; but serious irregularities or material
fundamental errors in applying the law, or the entire absence of essential
evidence with resulting material injury may be ground for quashing a judgment
on certiorari.”
Newman, 174 So.2d at 481 (emphasis supplied.)
As already discussed extensively above, the CSB’s General Counsel struck testimony or
denied the County’s attorney the opportunity to question witnesses at several points during the
hearing. If the elicited testimony had not been stricken, the CSB would have heard that testimony.
Again, this court may not engage in “questions of the weight and probative force of conflicting
testimony,” but this court may consider the fact that there was testimony which the CSB was not
allowed to hear because the General Counsel struck testimony and prevented questions from being
asked. There is no way that this Court, the County or anyone can assess whether in such a close
case, where one vote made all the difference, the stricken testimony would have made a difference.
Because the General Counsel’s striking of testimony resulted in an absence of evidence
with resulting material injury to the County’s due process rights, this Court has grounds to quash
the CSB’s order on certiorari. Id.
For all of the reasons stated, this petition should be granted and the CSB’s Order quashed.
Respectfully submitted,
/s/ Thomas M. Gonzalez

Thomas M. Gonzalez
Florida Bar No: 192341
Thompson, Sizemore, Gonzalez & Hearing, P.A.
Street: 201 North Franklin Street, Suite 1600
Tampa, Florida 33602
Mail: P. O. Box 639
Telephone: (813) 273-0050
14
Facsimile: (813) 273-0072
Email: tgonzalez@tsghlaw.com
Secondary Email; sknox@tsghlaw.com;
kharris@tsghlaw.com
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I HEREBY CERTIFY that a true copy of the foregoing was provided has been forwarded
via electronic mail and U.S. Mail to Peter W. Zinober, Esquire, Attorney for Hillsborough
County Civil Service Board, 101 E. Kennedy Blvd., Suite 1900, Tampa, FL 33602,
zinoberp@gtlaw.com on November 29, 2018.

Thomas M. Gonzalez
15
Filing # 81416480 E-Filed 11/29/2018 04:22:05 PM

IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, FLORIDA
APPELLATE DIVISION
HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY
COUNTY ADMINISTRATOR,
Petitioner,
Lower Tribunal Case No.:18-835
v. (Hillsborough Civil Service Board)
HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 18-CA-11650

CIVIL SERVICE BOARD, DIV K
Respondent.
______________________________________________________________________________
APPENDIX TO
HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY’S PETITION FOR WRIT OF CERTIORARI

Thomas M. Gonzalez
Florida Bar No: 192341
Thompson, Sizemore, Gonzalez & Hearing, P.A.
Street: 201 North Franklin Street, Suite 1600
Mail: P. O. Box 639
Telephone: (813) 273-0050
Facsimile: (813) 273-0072
Email: tgonzalez@tsghlaw.com
Secondary Email: sknox@tsghlaw.com;
kharris@tsghlaw.com
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
I HEREBY CERTIFY that a true copy of the foregoing was provided has been forwarded
via electronic mail and U.S. Mail to Peter W. Zinober, Esquire, Attorney for Hillsborough
County Civil Service Board, 101 E. Kennedy Blvd., Suite 1900, Tampa, FL 33602,
zinoberp@gtlaw.com on November 29, 2018.

Thomas M. Gonzalez

IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY FLORIDA
APPEALS DIVISION
HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY
Petitioner,
Lower Tribunal Case No.:18-835
v. (Hillsborough Civil Service Board)
HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY
CIVIL SERVICE BOARD,
Respondent.
_________________________________/
HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY’S
APPENDIX TO PETITION FOR CERTIORARI
INDEX
Tab No. Document
1 Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Order

A-1 – A-9 dated October 30, 2018
2 Transcript of the October 12, 2018 Hearing of the

A-10 – A-356 Hillsborough County Civil Service Board
3 Civil Service Act, Chapter 2000-445 and 2014-230,

A-357 – A-372 Laws of Florida
4 Civil Service Rule 11

A-373 – A-382
5 Civil Service Rule 15
A-383 – A-407
Tab. 1
BEFORE THE HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY CIVIL SERVICE BOARD
TRAVENSKI LAWSON,
Appellant,
v. Docket No. 18-835
HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY,
Appointing Authority.
/
FINDINGS OF FACT, CONCLUSIONS OF LAW, AND ORDER
This appeal came before the Hillsborough County Civil Service Board (the “Board”) on
October 17, 2018, for a final evidentiary hearing on the appeal of Travenski Lawson (the
“Appellant”) from his termination as a Residential Services Coordinator at Hillsborough County’s
Children’s Services Department’s Lake Magdalene Campus (the “Appointing Authority”). The
Board, comprised of Chairman Simon Canasi, Vice Chairman Ernie Trichler, and Members Neal
Carbaugh, Chandra Hosler, Andrea Cichon, and Tiffany Bell, having considered the evidence
and argument presented by the parties, hereby makes the following findings of fact and reaches
the following conclusions of law regarding this appeal:
FINDINGS OF FACT
1. On or about February 9, 2015, Appellant began employment with Hillsborough
County as a Residential Services Coordinator at Hillsborough County’s Children’s Services
Department’s Lake Magdalene Campus.
2. Appellant performed general supervisory/administrative duties at the
residential Lake Magdalene Campus for children 10 to 17 years old who are in the County’s
20/430 Baylawsuits.com A-1

care. Appellant’s responsibilities included planning, scheduling, coordinating, budgeting,
and controlling assigned resources to achieve departmental objectives.
3. On or about March 3, 2018, Appellant was working and present in the
cafeteria on the Lake Magdalene campus during a birthday party for a child who was aging
out of the program.
4. During the party, a thirteen-year-old female child approached Appellant and
slapped him on the face two or three times.
5. Video shows that Appellant made a sudden defensive movement after being
slapped on the face by the child. The Appointing Authority contends that Appellant slapped
the child. Appellant argues that he merely flinched and feigned, and that he never slapped
the child.
6. A Child Protective Investigator (“CPI”) employed by the Hillsborough
County Sheriff’s Office investigated the March 3, 2018 incident. The CPI closed the case
as not substantiated, meaning that he found Appellant had slapped the child, but that she
was not harmed and there was the no evidence of child abuse. He interviewed the child,
who denied that she had been struck.
7. The CPI and two witnesses with whom he spoke, Cynthia Simmons and
Michelle Veale, were among several individuals to testify at the hearing.
8. Ms. Simmons’ testimony contradicted her previous statements and conflicted
with the video of the incident. For example, Ms. Simmons testified that she witnessed the
incident, yet the video shows her looking in a different direction at the time of the alleged

slap. Ms. Simmons also testified that Appellant immediately left the area after the incident
while the video shows Appellant staying in the same place and talking with the child after
the incident.
9. Ms. Veale’s testimony also contradicted her previous statements and
conflicted with the video of the incident.
10. Neither Ms. Simmons nor Ms. Veale immediately reported the alleged child
abuse despite their testimony that they witnessed and heard the alleged slap and despite
being mandatory reporters of child abuse under the law and County policy. For this failure
to report, they testified that they each received a coaching regarding the reporting
requirements.
11. The CPI testified that he only interviewed the individuals identified to him by
the County, and after viewing the video at the hearing, he agreed that Ms. Simmons was not
watching the alleged incident at the time it occurred and probably could not have witnessed the
incident. He failed to interview another child, identified as “baby girl”, who was standing
right next to Appellant and the child when the alleged slap occurred, because the Appointing
Authority failed to bring her to the attention of the CPI.
12. The child’s statements regarding the incident were also conflicting. For
example, the child’s guardian ad litem, Ginger Rockey-Johnson, testified that the child told her
that the Appellant slapped her on March 3, 2018. But the child told law enforcement and the
CPI that the Appellant did not slap her.

13. Additionally, the quality of the video was poor, and it was difficult to make out
what transpired during the March 3, 2018 birthday party. The video showed the child slapping
Appellant and Appellant moving after being slapped. But the nature of the movement was not
clear. Indeed, one of the Appointing Authority’s managers testified that she viewed the video
15 times before she was able to form an opinion about what happened.
14. The witness testimony and exhibits also presented conflicting information
regarding the timing of the investigation by Human Resources, the CPI, and the Hillsborough
County Sheriff’s Office; the receipt and review of the investigation results; and the relationships
among the various investigations.
15. Soon after the incident, Appellant was placed on administrative leave, but
not before he was permitted to take a group of children on a field trip in a van.
16. After providing Appellant with a pre-disciplinary hearing, the County issued a
Civil Service Form 5 to Appellant dismissing him effective August 6, 2018.
CONCLUSIONS OF LAW
1. The Board has jurisdiction over this appeal by virtue of Appellant’s timely filing
of an appeal of his dismissal.
2. In an evidentiary hearing on a disciplinary appeal, Civil Service Rule 15.20(1)
provides that “[i]t is the responsibility of the Appellant or designated representative, to prove
by a preponderance of the evidence that the Agency lacked just cause for imposing discipline.
A ‘preponderance of the evidence’ simply means that amount of evidence which is enough to
persuade the Board that the facts asserted by the Appellant or designated representative, are

more likely true than not true and that those facts do not support the Agency’s allegations that
the Appellant’s conduct constitutes a violation of the Civil Service Rules identified on the
formal notice of discipline (CS Form 5).”
3. Additionally, Civil Service Rule 15.20(3) provides that ‘“[i]n all Board hearings,
including hearings to consider motions of any type made by either party, the moving party must
prevail by a majority of the Board members present and voting. In the case of a discipline
appeal,” such as t•his one, “the appellant is the moving party.” Accordingly, in instances where
a majority of the Board voted to uphold any of Appellant’s alleged violations of the Civil
Service Rules at issue, Appellant would not prevail.
4. Board member Trichler moved that the Board find that there was no just
cause for Appellant’s termination under Civil Service Rule 11.2(1). Board Member Bell
seconded the Motion. By a vote of 5 to 1, the Board concludes that the Appellant has proved
he did not violate this Rule.

cause for Appellant’s termination under County Administration/Human Resources Policy
7.5. Board Member Bell seconded the Motion. By a vote of 4 to 2, the Board concludes that
the Appellant has proved he did not violate this policy.

7.6(1). Board Member Bell seconded the Motion. By a vote of 4 to 2, the Board concludes
that the Appellant has proved he did not violate this policy.
7.6(2). Board Member Bell seconded the Motion. By unanimous vote, the Board concludes

20. Because the Board has concluded that the Appellant has carried his burden to
establish by a preponderance of the evidence that he did not violate any of the charged Civil
Service Rules or County Administrative/Human Resources Policies, the decision of the
Appointing Authority to terminate Appellant is hereby REVERSED pursuant to Civil Service
Rule 15.15(a).
21. The Appointing Authority is ORDERED to provide appropriate make whole relief to
Appellant pursuant to Civil Service Rule 15.24, including reinstatement of employment.
IT IS SO ORDERED this 30th day of October 2018, at Tampa, Hillsborough County,
Florida.
SIGNATURE ON FILE SIGNATURE ON FILE

Chairman Simon Canasi Andrea Cichon

Tiffany Bell Chandra Hosler

Neal Carbaugh Vice Chairman Ernie Trichler

Tab. 2
1
BEFORE THE HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY CIVIL SERVICE BOARD
TRAVENSKI LAWSON,
Appellant,
vs. DOCKET NO. 18-835
HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY COUNTY

ADMINISTRATOR,
Appointing Authority.
__________________________________/
TRANSCRIPT OF: PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE: Hillsborough County Civil Service

Board
DATE: October 17, 2018
TIME: 7:00 p.m.
PLACE: Hillsborough County Center

601 East Kennedy Boulevard
18th Floor
Tampa, Florida
REPORTED BY: Sherry L. Frain

Notary Public
State of Florida at Large

2
APPEARANCES:
HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY CIVIL SERVICE BOARD:
Simon Canasi, Chair

Tiffany Bell
Neal Carbaugh
Andrea Cichon
Chandra Hosler
Ernie Trichler
DANIELLE R. GREEN, ESQUIRE

Senior Assistant County Attorney
601 East Kennedy Boulevard, 27th Floor
Appeared for Appointing Authority
PETER W. ZINOBER, ESQUIRE

Greenberg Traurig
Suite 1900
101 East Kennedy Boulevard
Appeared for Civil Service Board

3
INDEX
Opening Statement by Ms. Green 17

Opening Statement by Mr. Lawson 23
WITNESS:
GINGER ROCKEY-JOHNSON
Direct Examination by Ms. Green 35

Cross-Examination by Mr. Lawson 45
Redirect Examination by Ms. Green 47
Examination by Ms. Bell 48
Examination by Mr. Carbaugh 50, 52
Examination by Ms. Cichon 51
Further Redirect Examination by Ms. Green 53
Recross-Examination by Mr. Lawson 53
Further Redirect Examination by Ms. Green 54
WITNESS:
RHONDA RHODES

Examination by Ms. Hosler 76, 84, 87, 92, 94,
100, 102, 107, 109
Examination by Mr. Trichler 79
Examination by Ms. Bell 80, 86, 91, 99,
103, 105, 108
Examination by Mr. Canasi 88, 98, 111

Recross-Examination by Mr. Lawson 101, 112

4
WITNESS:
CYNTHIA VERONICA SIMMONS

Examination by Ms. Hosler 144, 156, 165,
168, 176
Examination by Mr. Trichler 148, 166
Examination by Mr. Canasi 150, 152, 155
Examination by Ms. Bell 152, 154, 155,
156, 167, 171
Examination by Ms. Cichon 154, 164, 166
WITNESS:
KYLE RICHARD GREGORY

Examination by Mr. Canasi 187
Examination by Ms. Bell 190, 192, 198
Examination by Ms. Cichon 192, 194
Examination by Ms. Hosler 199
WITNESS:
MICHELLE BUCHANAN VEALE
Cross-Examination by Mr. Lawson 209, 215
Examination by Ms. Bell 215, 217, 218, 224,

226, 227, 230, 232, 234
Examination by Ms. Hosler 215, 218, 226, 229,
231, 233, 234, 235
Examination by Mr. Trichler 216, 217
Examination by Mr. Canasi 217, 223
Examination by Ms. Cichon 229, 234

5
WITNESS:
BEVERLY WALDRON

Examination by Ms. Hosler 243, 246
Examination by Ms. Bell 243
WITNESS:
JOANN ROLLINS

Examination by Mr. Canasi 260
Examination by Ms. Bell 264, 268
WITNESS:
TRENESIA STRONG
Direct Examination by Mr. Lawson 284

Examination by Ms. Bell 287, 289
Closing Statement by Ms. Green 290

Closing Statement by Mr. Lawson 299
Board deliberations 301

6
1 The transcript of proceedings, before the
2 Hillsborough County Civil Service Board, on the 17th
3 day of October, 2018, at Hillsborough County Center,
4 601 East Kennedy Boulevard, 18th Floor, Tampa,
5 Florida, beginning at 7:00 p.m., reported by Sherry
6 L. Frain, Notary Public, State of Florida at Large.
7 * * * * * * * * * *
8 PROCEEDINGS
9 MR. CANASI: We're going to going to call
10 the hearing to order. Roll call, please.
11 MR. GUERRERO: Good evening. Canasi?
12 MR. CANASI: Here.
13 MR. GUERRERO: Trichler?
14 MR. TRICHLER: Here.
15 MR. GUERRERO: Bell?
16 MS. BELL: Here.
17 MR. GUERRERO: Carbaugh?
18 MR. CARBAUGH: Here.
19 MR. GUERRERO: Cichon?
20 MS. CICHON: Here.
21 MR. GUERRERO: Hosler?
22 MS. HOSLER: Here.
23 MR. GUERRERO: Strepina? Thank you.
24 You have a quorum.
25 MR. CANASI: Thank you. Before I turn

7
1 this over to Mr. Zinober, I think it's
2 imperative that I make a couple of disclosures
3 here. First of all, the Lake Magdalene
4 facility is in my neighborhood, so I'm very
5 well aware of it.
6 In the past before some of these board
7 members were even on this board, we had
8 numerous hearings here for employees that had
9 been dismissed. And after a while I was
10 starting to get very concerned about that,
11 especially since it's in my neighborhood. And
12 therefore, Carl Harness invited me out to the
13 facility and gave me the grand tour so that I
14 could become familiar with what they did over
15 there and also to assure me that part of the
16 reason that we had had so many hearings was
17 that there was a bit of cleaning house going on
18 over there.
19 And I won't say that to make anyone think
20 that in any way I am going to be prejudicial
21 in how I'm going to rule on this when it gets
22 to that point, but I think it is proper me for
23 me to at least disclose it. So at this point,
24 given that I've made that disclosure, I would
25 like to ask counsel if you have any objections

8
1 to me serving.
2 MS. GREEN: Do you have any concerns
3 about looking at the evidence objectively, sir?
4 MR. CANASI: I'm sorry?
5 MS. GREEN: Do you have any concerns
6 about your ability to look at the evidence
7 objectively, sir?
8 MR. CANASI: With what is written, I can
9 look at objectively. If there's any videos, I
10 will look at it objectively as long as it's not
11 edited.
12 MS. GREEN: I am not sure how that --
13 MR. CANASI: Well, I would want to -- if
14 there's any video, because I know there's
15 cameras in the facility --
16 MS. GREEN: Sure, sure.
17 MR. CANASI: So if any part of the
18 evidence has to do with anything that was
19 caught on camera, I would want to see the whole
20 thing, beginning to end.
21 MS. GREEN: Okay. The parties got
22 together and decided which videos would be
23 joint exhibits.
24 MR. CANASI: Okay.
25 MS. GREEN: There's three videos. One is

9
1 the full length, regular speed. Two are just
2 shortened to make things quicker. One of the
3 shortened ones highlights what's happening in
4 the top of the screen with a box, but nothing
5 has been altered.
6 MR. CANASI: Okay. We should be all
7 right.
8 MS. GREEN: If you feel you can review
9 the evidence objectively, we don't have any
10 objection to you participating.
11 MR. CANASI: Okay. Mr. Lawson?
12 MR. LAWSON: No objection.
13 MR. CANASI: Thank you very much.
14 (Discussion off the record.)
15 MR. ZINOBER: We're here this evening in
16 order to hear the appeal by Travenski Lawson of
17 his dismissal by Hillsborough County. Are the
18 parties present and prepared to proceed for the
19 county?
20 MS. GREEN: Yes.
21 MR. ZINOBER: Would you introduce
22 yourself and your client?
23 MS. GREEN: Sure. Danielle Green with
24 the county attorney's office. To my left is
25 Melissa Wren. She's a paralegal from our

10
1 office. And to my right is JoAnn Rollins.
2 She's our client representative. She's the
3 director of the Children's Service Department.
4 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Lawson, would you
5 introduce yourself?
6 MR. LAWSON: Travenski Lawson, appellant.
7 MR. ZINOBER: Thank you. The CS Forms 5
8 and 5A were stipulated into evidence and
9 accepted into evidence at the prehearing
10 conference as Board Composite Exhibit 1.
11 The parties succeeded in negotiating a
12 stipulation at the prehearing that was
13 submitted and accepted at the prehearing
14 conference and it was reviewed by all parties
15 at the prehearing conference.
16 There were stipulated issues for
17 determination by the board. There were
18 stipulated facts and there were stipulated
19 exhibits. And anything that was stipulated
20 should have been submitted to members of the
21 Board approximately five days before the
22 hearing. We do this so that the board members
23 can review those stipulations and documents and
24 limit the amount of time necessary for the
25 hearing.

11
1 The exhibits that have not been
2 stipulated to must be moved into evidence by
3 whichever party wants them in evidence. So if
4 there was no stipulation as to an exhibit, the
5 party must move it into evidence. We'll hear
6 positions of the parties on that exhibit and
7 then I'll make an evidentiary ruling. Any
8 ruling I make at this hearing is immediately
9 appealable to the board.
10 At this time, let me ask the parties
11 whether they would like to have the
12 sequestration rule invoked. Mr. Lawson?
13 MR. LAWSON: Is that when all witnesses
14 step out and come in one at a time?
15 MR. ZINOBER: Correct.
16 MR. LAWSON: Yes, I would.
17 MR. ZINOBER: Would all of you who are
18 here in the hearing room and who have been
19 called to testify as witnesses in this case
20 rise and step forward to be sworn? Okay. If
21 you could move forward and the court clerk will
22 swear you in.
23 (Mr. Guerrero administers oath to all
24 witnesses.)
25 MR. ZINOBER: Ladies and gentlemen, let

12
1 me explain. The sequestration rule has been
2 invoked. Some of you may already know this,
3 but the purpose of this rule is to avoid
4 prejudicing your testimony by the testimony of
5 individuals who appear in the hearing room
6 before you do.
7 And so each witness who testifies will
8 testify without any other potential witnesses
9 being present to hear their testimony. Only
10 after your testimony has been given and you
11 have been released by either side in this case
12 can you return to the hearing room and hear the
13 proceedings. But, absent that, you are being
14 excluded in order to avoid prejudicing your
15 testimony in the future.
16 In addition, I would request that you not
17 discuss any of your testimony. And I'm sure
18 that you have had conversations with counsel or
19 paralegals or individuals who called you, and
20 you may have a rough idea of why you're here.
21 I would ask you not to discuss your
22 potential testimony with any other potential
23 witness until after you've been called to
24 testify and excused by both parties from the
25 hearing. Do you have any questions?

13
1 (All witnesses said no.)
2 MR. ZINOBER: Thank you. Let me cover a
3 couple of preliminary issues for the record.
4 One, the appellant, in this case, Mr. Lawson,
5 has the burden to prove by a preponderance of
6 the evidence that Hillsborough County did not
7 have cause to terminate his employment under
8 each section of the Civil Service Board's Rules
9 11.2, and each administrative policy of
10 Hillsborough County voted on individually by
11 the members of the board. These have all been
12 identified in the CS Form 5.
13 There are six board members present. In
14 the event of a three/three tie as to any rule
15 or policy -- in other words, three votes
16 finding cause and three votes finding no cause
17 -- in that event, the appellant does not
18 prevail because the appellant has the burden of
19 proving his case by a preponderance of the
20 evidence, and so a three/three tie is resolved
21 in favor of Hillsborough County.
22 Each side will have up to 90 minutes to
23 present their case. What that means is -- and
24 I assume that the timekeeper is the clerk of
25 the court. And we have a running clock there

14
1 to help the parties. And each side will have
2 up to 90 minutes. Included in that 90 minutes
3 is opening statement, closing statement, direct
4 examination, cross-examination and the argument
5 as to motions.
6 If there are board-member questions
7 that are directed to either side during the
8 hearing which occurs -- because after every
9 single witness, board members are invited to
10 question witnesses or counsel. It's their
11 privilege. And response to board-member
12 questions does not come off of your allotted
13 time.
14 But all other activities, either of
15 counsel or pro se appellant, would come off of
16 the 90 minutes, and you'll be able to see how
17 much time is left of your 90 minutes at any
18 point during the hearing. The pro se appellant
19 -- and, Mr. Lawson, I did not cover this at the
20 prehearing conference, which is why I'm
21 covering it now.
22 You will have the option of either making
23 an opening statement after the county does.
24 The county always goes first. You will have
25 the option of either making your opening

15
1 statement after the county, following which the
2 county will put on its case, or you can reserve
3 your opening statement until the beginning of
4 your case.
5 If you do that, you can consolidate your
6 opening statement and your direct examination,
7 and we have had unrepresented appellants who
8 have chosen that option because it combines the
9 opening statement and the direct examination.
10 Following that, you would be put under oath.
11 Following your opening statement and direct
12 examination, the county would then
13 cross-examine you. Simply I will ask you
14 whether you want to make an opening statement,
15 and you're free to make it. And that will come
16 after the county's opening statement.
17 Are there any other housekeeping matters
18 that we have to address prior to presenting
19 opening statements?
20 MS. GREEN: Just a few. They're pretty
21 simple. The parties have spoken ahead of time
22 about protecting the privacy of the children in
23 care at Lake Mag by referring to children using
24 their initials. And the child who is basically
25 at the center of the case, we'll refer to her

16
1 as "the child" or "LG," her initials. And the
2 parties agreed on that. Yes? Okay.
3 A couple of other things. I'll be using
4 the large monitor in my opening, and Mr. Lawson
5 is already aware of that as well. We're going
6 to bring it front and center and then we'll
7 push it back so it doesn't impede the rest, and
8 we'll do the same thing at closing arguments.
9 And I suffered a back injury last week,
10 so I might have to stand up and sit down, stand
11 up and sit down. But I want to let you know
12 ahead of time, it's not because I'm not paying
13 attention.
14 MR. CANASI: That makes two of us, don't
15 worry about it, only mine was last night.
16 MS. GREEN: Wait one more. So is there
17 just one clock? It's been awhile. There's one
18 clock, and so it toggles back and forth? Do
19 you turn it to Mr. Lawson so he can see how
20 much time he has?
21 MR. GUERRERO: Yes.
22 MS. GREEN: Okay. Just wanted to make
23 sure.
24 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Lawson, any
25 housekeeping matters that you want to present?

17
1 MR. LAWSON: No, sir.
2 MR. ZINOBER: Are we ready to go?
3 MR. LAWSON: Yes, sir.
4 MR. ZINOBER: Ms. Green?
5 MS. GREEN: Just a minute to move the
6 screen and then we'll be ready.
7 MR. CANASI: Can you see it, Mr. Lawson?
8 MR. LAWSON: I've seen it before. Thank
9 you.
10 MR. CANASI: I want to make sure you can
11 see it because if there's something in there
12 that I'm going to ask you about, you're going
13 to have to look at it.
14 MR. LAWSON: I watched it a million
15 times.
16 MS. GREEN: Board members, counsel, we
17 are here tonight because an employee slapped a
18 child. The appellant, Mr. Lawson, worked as a
19 Residential Services Coordinator on the Lake
20 Magdalene campus of the county Children's
21 Services Department beginning in 2015.
22 The Lake Magdalene campus, a/k/a Lake
23 Mag, is a 24-hour-a-day, seven-day-a-week
24 operation. At that location, 365 days a year,
25 the county provides temporary housing,

18
1 supervision, counseling and other services to
2 children placed in the county's care. Most of
3 these children have been removed from their
4 homes due to abuse or neglect. The county is
5 responsible for the children's safety and
6 welfare.
7 Mr. Lawson managed the Lake Magdalene
8 campus and all the staff caring for the
9 children during his assigned shifts. The staff
10 at Lake Mag employ the principles of NAPPI,
11 which is an acronym that stands for Non-Abusive
12 Psychological and Physical Intervention. Staff
13 members, including Mr. Lawson, are expected to
14 establish appropriate boundaries with the
15 children in their care.
16 The department provides staff NAPPI
17 training, which teaches how to utilize
18 prevention and verbal de-escalation techniques
19 when managing children's behavior. The
20 department's policy on that topic states, and I
21 quote, every effort will be made to assure that
22 the youth feels safe and accepted, end quote.
23 Children's Services prohibits staff from
24 hitting children in their care.
25 Turning to the events of March 3, 2018, a

19
1 birthday party was thrown for a child and it
2 was held in Lake Mag's cafeteria, which is also
3 referred to as the dining room. Mr. Lawson
4 entered the dining room while the party was in
5 full swing.
6 As the Residential Services Coordinator
7 on duty that night, he was the highest-ranking
8 staff member on campus, and he was effectively
9 the supervisor of every Child Care Specialist
10 and senior Child Care Specialist present.
11 Shortly after he entered the dining hall,
12 a female child approached him and slapped him
13 on the face approximately three times. After
14 the third slap, Mr. Lawson hit the child back.
15 Two employees on duty saw Mr. Lawson hit the
16 child. Shortly after Mr. Lawson hit the child,
17 the party broke up. One of the eyewitnesses to
18 Mr. Lawson hitting the child, whose name is
19 Cynthia Simmons, was cleaning up in the dining
20 hall after the children had left.
21 Mr. Lawson approached her. He apologized
22 to Ms. Simmons for losing his composure and for
23 hitting the child. He also said to Ms. Simmons
24 words to the effect that it was a natural
25 reaction to slap someone back when he got

20
1 slapped.
2 I'm going to show an excerpt of the video
3 surveillance. I'm going to show three
4 different versions. The first one is short.
5 It's trimmed to show just the action that's at
6 issue. And there's a box that shows you where
7 Mr. Lawson and the child are in the video so
8 that the second time you see it without the
9 boxes, and the third time, which will be full
10 length, you will be focused where Mr. Lawson
11 and the child end up.
12 (Playing video.)
13 MS. GREEN: So at the top in the burgundy
14 shirt is Mr. Lawson, and the child is in the
15 white shirt. I'm going to show the shortened
16 version again without the boxes if I can do it
17 right. My apologies.
18 I'm going to take you now to the longer
19 version that shows a little more before and a
20 lot more after, and I'm going to point out
21 who's who and who's where. Right here, you'll
22 see Cynthia Simmons. Here's the child with the
23 white T-shirt.
24 This lady with the hat is Michelle Veale,
25 and then again, Mr. Lawson is at the top of the

21
1 frame in the burgundy shirt. At this point,
2 Ms. Keyonna Tate approaches. She's a staff
3 member as well. She's got kind of a
4 grayish/bluish shirt on and long pants.
5 And there you see Ms. Veale, Ms. Tate and
6 Mr. Lawson in the same vicinity. So, again,
7 Ms. Simmons is the one on the stool. Ms. Veale
8 was the one with the ball cap. A couple of
9 times when I watched this, my eyes blinked and
10 I missed the whole thing. So at this point,
11 I'm going to go back to the trimmed version
12 that doesn't have boxes and then I'll step away
13 and resume opening.
14 The Hillsborough County Sheriff's' Office
15 Child Protective Investigation unit
16 investigated Mr. Lawson's conduct as potential
17 child abuse. Those investigators are commonly
18 referred to as CPIs. When the CPI unit
19 investigates whether an adult hit a child,
20 there are three ways they can close the case,
21 and they're not really intuitive, so I'm going
22 to walk you through them. They weren't
23 intuitive to me.
24 First, no indicators of any abuse. On
25 the other end of the spectrum, they can close

22
1 the case with verified findings. The third
2 choice falls somewhere in the middle, not
3 substantiated. When investigating whether an
4 adult hit a child, the CPI must determine
5 whether the hit happened and, if so, whether
6 enough injury was caused to be considered child
7 abuse.
8 In those circumstances if the CPI closes
9 the case, no indicators of any abuse, there was
10 no evidence the hit happened. If the CPI
11 closes the case verified findings, the CPI
12 determined the hit happened and enough injury
13 was caused to be considered child abuse.
14 Finally, if the CPI closes the case not
15 substantiated when investigating whether an
16 adult hit a child, then there was not enough
17 evidence for verified findings but there was
18 some evidence of child abuse. The hit
19 happened, but there was no injury or not enough
20 injury to constitute child abuse.
21 In this case, the CPI interviewed
22 multiple witnesses including but not limited to
23 Mr. Lawson, Ms. Simmons, Ms. Veale and the
24 child. Now, despite Mr. Lawson's admissions to
25 Ms. Simmons on the night of the incident, when

23
1 he spoke to the CPI, Mr. Lawson denied hitting
2 the child. The CPI considered Mr. Lawson's
3 denial and the interviews of Ms. Simmons, Ms.
4 Veale and the child.
5 The CPI also took into consideration his
6 own review of the surveillance video. The CPI
7 determined Mr. Lawson slapped the child, but
8 there was no evidence to injury to the child as
9 a result of the slap. Because of those
10 findings, the CPI closed the case not
11 substantiated, meaning there was some evidence
12 of child abuse but not enough evidence for
13 verified findings.
14 It's important to note if the CPI had
15 concluded Mr. Lawson had not slapped the child,
16 he would have recommended the case be closed,
17 no indicators.
18 Thank you for your attention.
19 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Lawson, you're free to
20 -- if you're going to use the video, you
21 probably ought to get up so you can use the
22 mouse. Right?
24 Good evening, everyone. I'll be going to
25 the video a little bit later, but I want to

24
1 initiate, at least start my opening statement.
2 As I stand before you again for the
3 second time in this many years, I can't help
4 but to wonder what feathers I have ruffled. I
5 ask this because I've worked with kids on and
6 off for the last 19 years, for the last 13
7 years being without interruption, and I was
8 never ever the subject of an abusive allegation
9 until becoming employed by Children's Services.
10 Since working with this agency, I have
11 had four abuse calls called in on me, three of
12 which was called in by administration, none of
13 which were verified, yet I stand here to prove
14 my innocence after being cleared by law
15 enforcement and CPI.
16 The series of meetings, the hearing, the
17 situation altogether could have been avoided if
18 an unbiased investigation was conducted by
19 either Children's Services or human resources
20 or both, for that matter, but it wasn't.
21 Ever since my children to Children's
22 Services after the last appeal, I have walked
23 on eggshells because I felt I would be a target
24 of retaliation, but my love for the population
25 we served motivated me to keep going. So as

25
1 more and more became overwhelming, I made two
2 indirect cries for help to HR with the latter
3 evidently taking it over the edge.
4 Shortly after the new year, an abuse call
5 was made on me and accepted on three concerns
6 -- I'm sorry, on three concerns of Children's
7 Services. As they mentioned, it was after
8 consulting with HR, ranging from October to
9 December, neither of which was considered abuse
10 once CPI got involved.
11 One of these concerns made me wonder how
12 my name was even involved, how was I
13 identified. How would the complainant know to
14 contact Children's Services if I did do
15 something wrong when I don't wear my shirts
16 outside of the job. After that, I was even
17 more cautious, and then this.
18 An abuse call on physical abuse with
19 conflicting stories, missing staff and youth
20 statements. Out of 24 to 25 individuals in the
21 cafeteria, only three individuals were
22 interviewed by HR. Only five were interviewed
23 by CPI, and video footage that does not support
24 the allegation but emphasizes their perception.
25 I'm going to step up and go over footage now so

26
1 we can review the footage, and then I'll
2 continue.
3 (Playing video.)
4 MR. LAWSON: This is the entire frame for
5 the video. Of course, as you mentioned, they
6 pointed out where everyone is sitting. Ms.
7 Cynthia is in the chair, Ms. Michelle in the
8 ball cap, and it's me in the back of the
9 cafeteria. This is the youth in question, LG.
10 Right here, LG walks up to me. I'm going to
11 pause it right there.
12 At that time, you can tell by her
13 demeanor, she's playing, she's not even making
14 contact with my face. The last time when she
15 was doing it -- I'll pause it again -- she
16 stopped by my face and she touched me. I
17 flinched, which automatically made her go up
18 and move back.
19 So never would you see my hand. I can go
20 through this video. Sorry. My hands are kind
21 of shaking because I'm nervous, but it won't
22 even let me slow it down. It does it on my
23 computer, but it's not letting me slow it down.
24 But with a slow version of this video, you
25 don't see my hand.

27
1 Press play. You never see my hand swing,
2 come close to the individual. And when she
3 moved, my hand is by the cup. But, of course,
4 by sudden movement, you're going to
5 automatically feel that something could have
6 happened. Nothing is definitive there. But
7 for our two key witnesses, Ms. Cynthia Simmons
8 and Ms. Michelle Veale, who say they saw
9 everything that happened, neither one of them
10 made any attempt to even come over if they
11 actually saw a slap.
12 If I slapped a child in front of an
13 adult, they're going to at least get up out of
14 their seat and make some kind of motion coming
15 to intervene. Ms. Cynthia is still sitting in
16 the chair unbothered.
17 Michelle is standing right here with her
18 phone in her hand unbothered, so there's
19 nothing that could have happened right there.
20 No adult in their right mind would see an
21 individual, a man, slap a thirteen-year-old kid
22 and just sit there and not even approach.
23 They sat here the whole time and just
24 looking around. No efforts, no anything,
25 despite what they're saying, "Oh, I went over

28
1 there and say, 'You better move,' "I did this,
2 I did that." None of that happened. Like I
3 said, this is not definitive. All you see is a
4 sudden movement by me and the kid goes up like
5 this, and they're saying I slapped the child.
6 I have daughters of my own. I have kids.
7 I have sons. I don't slap my own kids. I'm
8 not going to slap kids here. And I positioned
9 myself right here because of what I've been
10 going through so I can remain on camera.
11 I stayed right there by the door the
12 whole time. And Ms. Simmons said shortly
13 thereafter, the party was over. Once we called
14 in the witnesses -- they say this happened
15 between 8:00 and 8:30. The party wasn't over
16 till 10, no interruption in the party. So how
17 do a staff, a grown -- an adult slap a kid and
18 you continue to allow a party go on?
19 We're in ratio. No staff stepped out and
20 called abuse. No staff thinks to call their
21 supervisor. Nothing happens. I come back to
22 work the next day. If I just slapped a child,
23 why am I at work the next day? If I lost my
24 composure -- which you can tell I didn't in
25 this video because I'm still just standing

29
1 there like this. If I lost my composure and I
2 slapped a kid, could have caused them injury,
3 why am I allowed to be at work the next day
4 around kids again less that 24 hours after this
5 happened?
6 No law enforcement called, no CPI, no
7 supervisors, no interventions called, but I was
8 the whole day. I didn't hear anything about me
9 supposedly slapping the kid until after Ms.
10 Rhonda called me the next day and told me
11 there was a call that was called in on me.
12 So, once again, an adult slapped a child,
13 no staff even makes a step to get out of their
14 seat, go and separate the two. That couldn't
15 have happened. Ms. Michelle is a case manager,
16 she knows, she's been in the field for quite
17 some time. Ms. Cynthia was a director of a
18 program. She's been in the field for quite
19 some time, but neither one of them even made
20 any motion to come to us, which lets you know
21 that nothing really happened.
22 The video is misleading because I
23 can't slow it down, but it's showing you there,
24 no one got up and no one made any effort. You
25 see sudden movements. You don't see my hand.

30
1 You don't see contact. You see none of that.
2 Today my focus is on proving my innocense
3 and showing that these accusations and this
4 situation would not have been necessary if the
5 energy and the effort used to dismiss me was
6 also used to prove my innocence. That's what a
7 supportive employer would have focused on. It
8 is easy to say someone else is wrong and must
9 be disciplined to take a legitimate look at the
10 evidence as if your own livelihood was on the
11 line.
12 In the prehearing conference, Ms. Green
13 mentioned, if the board determines that you did
14 not slap or make contact with the youth, the
15 dismissal should not be overturned because you
16 swung at the child. I was terminated for
17 supposedly slapping a kid. Then she said I
18 swung. If I was able to slow the video down --
19 which I asked before, would we be able to
20 control the speed. I was told yes.
21 But if I was able to, I would be able to
22 show you that at no point in time do you see my
23 hand raise here, go here, come here, do
24 anything, no follow-through anything. Once the
25 kid moved, you see my hand in front of my cup.

31
1 If I was to slap a kid and lose my composure, I
2 would be doing so much more than that. I would
3 not be able to hold a cup of tea in my hand,
4 switch my hand, then take ahold of the kid's
5 hands and tell here to stop playing. I
6 wouldn't be able to do that.
7 But although I never swung at the child,
8 I feel that the agency is aware that the
9 allegations against me are false. But instead
10 of admitting that the decision to dismiss me
11 was incorrect, they would rather continue
12 through with the hearing to hope that I can't
13 prove my innocence. In this case, it's sad,
14 because once integrity was overshadowed by
15 their pride.
16 MR. CANASI: Can we get that -- is there
17 any way to get that slowed down?
18 MS. GREEN: I can't slow that down, no.
19 MR. CANASI: I would like it played back.
20 I want to get up real close to it. With these
21 glasses, I can't seem to get focused.
22 MS. GREEN: Did he stop his clock? I
23 don't want him to run out of time.
24 MR. CANASI: Yes.
25 (Playing video.)

32
1 MR. CANASI: I allowed to ask any
2 questions now?
3 MR. ZINOBER: Sure.
4 MR. CANASI: What are you two talking
5 about right here after that incident? Because
6 she's still there talking to you.
7 MR. LAWSON: When I brought her back up,
8 I told her, you know, "You shouldn't be playing
9 like that." And she just stood there and she
10 just had a regular conversation.
11 MR. CANASI: Okay. And then there was an
12 adult that had come up to you?
13 MR. LAWSON: Ms. Tate. The one right
14 there, the one that's there now, the one that
15 came from the top of the screen and came --
16 MR. CANASI: No, no, beforehand. I'm
17 sorry.
18 MS. BELL: I would like to know who the
19 minor child is with the ponytail that's
20 standing right there in the red shirt.
21 MR. LAWSON: The one in the corner? Red
22 shirt? Her initials are KH.
23 MR. CANASI: Who is this person right
24 here?
25 MR. LAWSON: Keyonna Tate. She came

33
1 over. She saw me hold her hand. She was like,
2 "Everything okay?"
3 I was like, "Yeah, she's just playing."
4 She was like, "You know you can't play
5 like that because you know how people will look
6 at it." And she walked off.
7 MR. CANASI: Unfortunately, the
8 resolution in this is not very good. I had to
9 come up close. With these progressive glasses,
10 I couldn't get the right focus no matter which
11 lens I looked through. And still as I'm this
12 close -- one last time.
13 MS. GREEN: Sure.
14 MS. BELL: I find watching the cup helps.
15 MR. CANASI: And I would think that each
16 one of you may want to come up here. But I can
17 see where she's touching your face, and when
18 you swung, you connected.
19 MR. LAWSON: That was her hand that went
20 up like this.
21 MR. CANASI: Do it again.
22 MR. LAWSON: Watch her left hand. Her
23 left hand goes up.
24 MR. CANASI: Okay. You're right.
25 MR. CARBAUGH: Would it help looking at

34
1 the blown-up version that's in the box that
2 expands?
3 MR. CANASI: Can you do that?
4 MS. GREEN: I can.
5 MR. CANASI: I should have brought my
6 computer tonight because then I could really
7 see it better. Can you blow that up?
8 MS. GREEN: Of course. It will end soon
9 and I can just hit play again.
10 MS. BELL: It's at the bottom of the
11 screen.
12 MR. CANASI: One more time.
13 MS. GREEN: Here we go.
14 MR. CANASI: Down here in this box.
15 Gotcha. Okay.
16 MR. ZINOBER: We have now had opening
17 statements. Ms. Green, are you ready to
18 present your case?
19 MS. GREEN: As soon as I get this out of
20 the way.
21 MR. ZINOBER: Good.
22 MR. CARBAUGH: Excuse me for one second.
23 Before you back that up. Are we going to end
24 up coming back to this video at any point?
25 Because there are a couple of other things I

35
1 would like to point out.
2 MR. ZINOBER: As I understand, the answer
3 is yes. Isn't it?
4 MS. GREEN: I plan to use it in closing
5 argument.
6 MR. CARBAUGH: I'll wait.
7 MS. GREEN: The county calls Ginger
8 Rockey Johnson. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
9 Pete, was his opening under oath?
10 MR. ZINOBER: No.
11 MS. BELL: Thank you.
12 MR. ZINOBER: It wouldn't have been as an
13 opening statement. It would have been if it
14 had been in his case.
15 MS. GREEN: I just remember in the
16 Cheney case, that's how you approached it. You
17 put her under oath right after my opening.
18 * * * * * * * * *
19 GINGER ROCKEY-JOHNSON,
20 having been duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole
21 truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and
22 testified as follows:
23 DIRECT EXAMINATION
24 BY MS. GREEN:
25 Q Please state your name and title for the

36
1 record.
2 A Ginger Rockey-Johnson, Child Advocate
3 Manager with the guardian ad litem program.
4 Q You said you worked for the guardian ad
5 litem program. Who is your employer?
6 A Department of Juvenile Justice.
7 Q So it's not the county?
8 A No, state.
9 Q How long have you been employed there?
10 A Full time since March. I have been a
11 guardian ad litem since 2016.
12 Q Can you please briefly describe for the
13 board members your work history?
14 A My work history. Prior to being guardian
15 ad litem?
16 Q Yes.
17 A I was a career professional. I have nine
18 degrees. I traveled the country helping businesses
19 with business development and finding their bottom
20 line, finding what's wrong with their businesses and
21 helping them become more productive.
22 Q What drew you to guardian ad litem
23 volunteering in -- did you say 2016?
24 A In 2016, yes. When my husband and I
25 retired in 2006, I was running my own agency for a

37
1 long time and met somebody that talked about the
2 guardian ad litem program and kind of fell in love
3 with my first kid, and here I am.
4 Q So how did that turn into full-time
5 employment? You said you were already retired.
6 A Yes, I was. I'm very good with teenagers
7 and I work now on the teen unit. So, as a
8 volunteer, I had 24 kids. In the guardian ad litem
9 program, we would take a lot of high-risk kids and
10 get them calmed down and settled in. And so the
11 state decided that they needed to have a teen unit,
12 so I was brought in as a full-time person to take
13 care of teens in the foster care system.
14 Q Can you please describe for the board
15 members, what is your role as a guardian ad litem
16 supervisor?
17 A I worked primarily with the teenagers.
18 I advocate for their best interest in the court
19 systems, whether it's dependency, their juvenile
20 justice, GJJ records, mental health, so we advocate
21 for what's in their best interest. We're typically
22 the only constant they have with the court systems,
23 as case managers come in and out, other people come
24 in and out, and we stay.
25 Q Do you have a role outside of the court

38
1 system for the children that you represent?
2 A I'm with them all the time. I'm the mama
3 they don't live with. I take care of them, whether
4 they need their hair done or they need to get to
5 their doctor's appointments. I pick them up and
6 take them everywhere.
7 Q For how many children do you serve as
8 guardian ad litem now?
9 A 45.
10 Q In March of this year, how many?
11 A 64.
12 Q Are you the guardian ad litem for the
13 minor child with the initials LG who resided at Lake
14 Magdalene on March 3rd of this year?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Can you please describe for -- sorry.
17 How did you become aware of the reported incident of
18 child abuse against that child that occurred on
19 March 3rd?
20 A She called me the next day. She said
21 that a black staff member, black male staff member,
22 had slugged her. I said, "Okay. I will come in and
23 see you and we'll sit down and talk." I waited for
24 the incident report to come to me the next morning,
25 which was two days later, and then I saw the LG on

39
1 the 8th.
2 Q When you saw her on the 8th, did you
3 discuss the incident in more detail?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What were you looking for when you
6 discussed it with her?
7 A When kids call me and say something
8 happened like that, they're usually -- the verbiage
9 they're using isn't always accurate. They're like
10 talking for people behind them trying to protect
11 themselves because -- they're in foster care.
12 They're used to being treated poorly, so that is
13 usually like a knee-jerk response. So to get the
14 real what's going on, I need to sit with them
15 outside of the environment that they're in, sit with
16 them with a closed door and say, "Tell me what
17 really happened. What's going on?"
18 And so when the incident report came, I
19 asked her about what happened, if she was okay and
20 did she want to talk about it. And she did. She
21 talked about how she was dancing at a party, that
22 she started messing around with one member, and then
23 she walked up to the staff member and was messing
24 with him, and she smacked him and he slapped her.
25 She said it really surprised her and it shocked her.

40
1 Q Did she tell you the name of the staff
2 member?
3 A Yes. She said it was Mr. Lawson.
4 Q Why was this particular child in care?
5 A She -- her mother had battered her.
6 She's had frying pans taken to her face, several
7 physical violent issues with her mother. Her father
8 had no time for her. And to get away from the stuff
9 that was going on in her home at the time, she would
10 run. So she ran, she became a human trafficking
11 victim, having survival sex to stay alive pretty
12 much, to get food, shelter, whatever she could do.
13 When the report was finally called in
14 from somebody that noticed she wasn't in school as
15 often as she used to be, then they picked her up and
16 brought her into care.
17 Q Did the child seem upset when she
18 reported the incident to you?
19 A Kids that have been battered like that
20 are pretty much like, "Hey, I got my hair done
21 today," "No, hey, I got smacked today, I got beat
22 today." It's nothing big to them. They know how to
23 deal with being assaulted. They just don't know how
24 to deal with kindness. That's when they start
25 retaliating or pushing back. In LG's case, when

41
1 something bad happens to her, she runs.
2 MR. ZINOBER: Excuse me. Let's use the
3 initials of the child.
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, LG, yes. She
5 runs. She runs to get away from the incident,
6 the issue, the circumstance, the people, and
7 she'll start trafficking again because that's
8 what she knows.
9 MR. CANASI: Can we make sure that the
10 court reporter does not use the child's first
11 name?
12 THE REPORTER: So every time they said
13 the name, just type LG?
14 MR. CANASI: Yes.
15 Q How old is LG now?
16 A She's fourteen.
17 Q How old was she when -- how old was she
18 on March 3rd?
19 A Thirteen.
20 Q How many placements has she had since you
21 became her guardian ad litem?
22 A 34 with 54 run incidents.
23 Q She's had 34 placements?
24 A I'm sorry. 10 placements, 54 run
25 incidences.

42
1 Q When you say she's had 10 placements,
2 what do you mean?
3 A I mean she's had 10 different locations
4 that she's been at, 10 different group homes,
5 therapeutic foster homes, also group homes.
6 Q Where did Lake Magdalene fall in those 10
7 or so placements?
8 A It was her first primary after shelter.
9 So when kids are first removed, they go into a
10 shelter facility until they can locate a group home
11 for them for permanency.
12 Q Did you later learn that the child spoke
13 to law enforcement and denied being hit by Mr.
14 Lawson?
15 A I read it in a report.
16 Q Do you have any theories about why the
17 child's version of events to you would be different
18 from what she told law enforcement?
19 A Yeah. She will -- she'll always tell --
20 when she's behind closed doors, she'll tell me
21 what's going on. But after the fact or before the
22 fact or if somebody's promised her something -- like
23 usually it's to get her hair or nails done.
24 If they're going to transport her to
25 another placement, she won't get out of the car,

43
1 they'll say, "Hey, I'll do your hair and nails," and
2 she'll get out and go.
3 Q Forgive me if you've answered this.
4 After the incident on March 3rd, did you notice any
5 changes in her behavior?
6 A She ran a lot, a lot. I mean, all of her
7 run incidences have happened after that.
8 Q Prior to March 3rd, did she convey to you
9 whether or not she was comfortable at Lake Mag?
10 A Yes. She was no longer comfortable. She
11 was adamant about wanting to get off campus. She
12 didn't want to be there anymore at all.
13 Q When did she say she didn't want to be
14 there?
15 A Maybe a week or two.
16 Q A week or two --
17 A After March 3rd -- well, actually March
18 8th, because that's when I sat down and talked with
19 her.
20 Q But prior to March 3rd, had she convened
21 to you how she felt, whether she liked it at Lake
22 Mag, whether she was comfortable prior to March 3rd?
23 A She was comfortable there. We had a
24 meeting, and she was pretty okay with advocating for
25 herself. There was no concerns up and to that

44
1 point.
2 Q How did Mr. Lawson's behavior toward LG
3 on March 3rd impact your work as a guardian ad litem
4 for other children in care?
5 A I got called out about a month later in
6 the month of April to a totally different group home
7 because one of my kids was refusing placement. They
8 had gotten disrupted, meaning they were being moved
9 from that group home and was supposed to be going to
10 Lake Mag.
11 And this young man refused to go. And so
12 I had to go. They called me and said, "Hey, we need
13 you to go help get this kid go to where he needs to
14 go." So I went over there to talk to him. And he
15 was like, "I ain't going over there, I ain't going
16 over there. Staff is protecting themselves. You
17 know, they beat down that girl over there."
18 So it's still going on. I mean, these
19 kids have like their own little network of who's
20 gotten hit over where and who's lied on them.
21 Whether it's real or perception, these kids, they
22 talk. They talk a lot about what's going on. So
23 the incident that was at Lake Mag, this kid refused
24 to go. And the circle was that this girl got beat
25 down by a staff member and the staff members there

45
1 weren't talking about it. So nobody wanted to go
2 over there. It was just the first of, I think, four
3 or five other kids that I had to work with that
4 refused to go to Lake Mag after that.
5 MS. GREEN: Nothing further.
6 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Lawson,
7 cross-examination?
8 MR. LAWSON: Yes.
9 CROSS-EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. LAWSON:
11 Q Ms. Rockey-Johnson, you said LG contacted
12 you on Sunday, correct, and said she was slapped by
13 staff?
14 A She contacted me on the 4th.
15 Q Sunday. She contacted you and said she
16 was slapped. At that time, did you think to call
17 abuse if there was an allegation that the youth was
18 making and confided in you?
19 A She said that the staff members there
20 were already writing up an incident report, which I
21 received on Monday.
22 Q That's the one you received from Ms.
23 Michelle Veale?
24 A It comes through the guardian ad litem
25 program's primary notification system, so it comes

46
1 through e-mail as an attached document. Who would
2 have sent it, I don't know.
3 Q Understand. But, A, you say when you
4 asked her who slapped her, who did she say again?
5 A Mr. Lawson. That was on the 8th when I
6 spoke with her in person.
7 Q I was just asking because she didn't know
8 my last name. So I was just wondering how she
9 referred to me as Mr. Lawson because that's not what
10 she referred to me as.
11 On the CPI report -- I'm sorry. The CPI
12 document that you advised that the incident said the
13 child and the staff member got into an argument and
14 she antagonized the staff member until he slapped
15 her and the child was shocked, is that correct?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q On the video, it shows that there was no
18 argument, the kid was coming over playing. So I'm
19 not sure where this information came about, but
20 that's totally opposite of what was going on.
21 Another thing I noticed you said was her runs began
22 to happen after March 3rd. Correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q That was the one first one you were
25 notified of, the ones that came after March 3rd?

47
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. LG had actually ran with four
3 other girls the week before. LG was already a
4 runner and skipping school prior to March 3rd. So
5 her run behaviors didn't start then, but I'm
6 guessing that's when you were first notified, so I
7 understand that.
8 I'm just trying to get an understanding
9 of this kid circle where kids are refusing to come
10 to Lake Mag because they heard that the staff
11 protect one another and they're beating up on this
12 little girl, correct, or something along those
13 lines?
14 A Yes.
15 MR. LAWSON: That's all my questions.
16 MR. ZINOBER: Redirect?
17 MS. GREEN: Just briefly.
18 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
19 BY MS. GREEN:
20 Q You didn't testify that LG ran for the
21 very first time after March 3rd, did you?
22 A No.
24 MR. ZINOBER: Any board-member questions?
25 MS. BELL: Yes, I have a few questions.

48
1 EXAMINATION
2 BY MS. BELL:
3 Q Reading through some of the reports, is
4 it not true that when LG was contacted originally --
5 I believe by the sheriff's office -- that she
6 thought she was being contacted about the incident
7 with Michelle, not with Mr. Lawson?
8 A I couldn't tell you what she believed.
9 Q That seems to be in the paperwork the
10 case. Did she tell you about what happened with
11 Michelle that same night?
12 A We didn't talk about Michelle. It came
13 up in a treatment team meeting about a week later,
14 and that was during a staff meeting with all of the
15 staff members who were involved in her treatment
16 team. And she asked for a different case manager at
17 that time because her and Michelle weren't getting
18 along.
19 Q You did say something about she did not
20 want to have anything to do with the female staff?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Can you elaborate on that?
23 A I can't. She wouldn't talk much about it
24 except that there was a woman at the party as well
25 as the male who slapped her.

49
1 Q So I think that's interesting going back
2 to something you said earlier about these children
3 typically don't know how to deal with kindness. In
4 reading through some of this, you know, referring to
5 Mr. Lawson as Daddy, referring to some of these
6 ladies as Mommy, clearly something did happen with
7 Michelle that night.
8 That's what it appears she thought she
9 was being contacted to address, not the slapping
10 incident at all; and yet with Mr. Lawson, I think
11 it's clear, at least from the video, that it seems
12 to be playful on her side, that when put in a
13 difficult situation, that maybe that kindness was an
14 issue. And then finally, can you tell us how LG is
15 doing today?
16 A She is doing very well. She is
17 exceptionally well right now.
18 MS. BELL: That's all I have.
19 MR. CANASI: I have one question. I
20 guess it's really to Mr. Lawson because of a
21 comment that he made, where you stated that she
22 did not know your last name.
23 MR. LAWSON: Correct.
24 MR. CANASI: Do you all wear name tags
25 over there?

50
1 MR. LAWSON: We have name tags, yes.
2 MR. CANASI: What does the name tag say?
3 MR. LAWSON: It says "Travenski Lawson."
4 My name tag is always turned backwards because
5 the kids like to go and look you up on the
6 internet and find out information, so mine was
7 turned backwards.
8 MR. CANASI: There's not one child in
9 that entire facility that knew you as Mr.
10 Lawson?
11 MR. LAWSON: No.
12 MR. CANASI: What did they call you?
13 MR. LAWSON: Mr. Tre or RSC Tre.
14 EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. CARBAUGH:
16 Q Ms. Johnson, did you have a chance to
17 look at the video?
18 A Yes.
19 Q How many times have you reviewed it?
20 A Once.
21 Q Just the one time?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Did it look like abuse to you?
24 A It shocked me that he slapped her, yes.
25 I'm sorry.

51
1 Q Go ahead.
2 A The kids don't expect to come in, getting
3 away from abusive situations to go into caretaker
4 roles, to have someone else hit them.
5 Q There was another minor child in a red
6 shirt apparently with the initials of KH standing
7 next to Mr. Lawson and LG when this happened. Do
8 you know her? Are you her case manager?
9 A No.
10 Q No. You haven't spoken with her?
11 A No.
12 MR. CARBAUGH: That's all I have. Thank
13 you.
14 MS. CICHON: Just one more question.
15 EXAMINATION
16 BY MS. CICHON:
17 Q What are you all taught when you're
18 dealing with children that might have disruptive
19 behaviors? So if a child does put their hands on a
20 case manager or a teacher, et cetera, what are you
21 all taught as the proper techniques to de-escalate
22 and not have that physical contact with the child?
23 A I mean, everybody goes through trauma
24 training that deals with children in foster care.
25 But there's a no-touch policy for every agency

52
1 unless they're a facility that is allowed to have
2 that. They're usually STGH placements or a higher
3 level of care where they're allowed to do
4 restraints, otherwise there's no contact.
5 That's why a lot of times when kids are
6 running, all you can do is watch them run and report
7 because you can't stop them, you can't lay hands on
8 a child for any reason.
9 MS. CICHON: Thank you.
10 MS. GREEN: Can I ask a clarification
11 question?
12 MR. ZINOBER: Well, let's wait for the
13 board members to exhaust questions and then
14 I'll let you follow up.
15 MS. GREEN: Of course.
16 EXAMINATION
17 BY MS. BELL:
18 Q So Mr. Lawson has not been charged or
19 cited with other physical contact, just the slap.
20 Correct?
21 A I don't know.
22 Q Because we see one child lean like
23 hugging him and stuff. And so that's interesting
24 that it's no touch because I don't think that was
25 documented anywhere.

53
1 MS. BELL: That's all I have.
2 MR. ZINOBER: Go ahead and follow up.
3 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
4 BY MS. GREEN:
5 Q So you're employed by the guardian ad
6 litem. You're not employed by the county and you're
7 not employed by Lake Mag. Correct?
8 A Correct.
9 Q So you're really not schooled on their
10 policies on what they can and can't do and when they
11 can and cannot touch?
12 A No.
13 MS. GREEN: Okay.
14 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Lawson, do you have
15 anything to follow up on?
16 MR. LAWSON: Yes.
17 RECROSS EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. LAWSON:
19 Q You said that within those agencies, the
20 only agencies that are allowed to be hands on for
21 any means are like STGH placements. What are the
22 placements you named?
23 A The strategic -- they're STGH, they're a
24 higher level of group-home care, therapeutic care.
25 MR. LAWSON: All right. That's it.

54
1 MS. GREEN: I'm sorry. Maybe one more.
3 BY MS. GREEN:
4 Q Were you present when law enforcement
5 interviewed LG?
6 A No.
8 MR. ZINOBER: Is this witness excused?
9 MS. GREEN: No.
10 MR. ZINOBER: You may resume your seat in
11 the witness room unless and until you're
12 dismissed as a witness.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay.
14 MR. ZINOBER: Call your next witness,
15 please.
16 MS. GREEN: With the caution not to
17 discuss testimony, of course.
18 THE WITNESS: Understood.
19 MS. GREEN: Rhonda Rhodes.
20 MR. ZINOBER: Ms. Rhodes, would you state
21 your full name and spell it for the record,
22 please?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes. My name is Rhonda
24 Rhodes, R-h-o-n-d-a R-h-o-d-e-s.
25 MR. ZINOBER: Thank you. Your witness.

55
2 BY MS. GREEN:
3 Q Could you please tell the board members
4 your title?
5 A I am the clinical director at
6 Hillsborough County Children's Services.
7 Q Please describe your educational
8 background for the board members.
9 A I have a BA in sociology and psychology,
10 an MSW, which is a master's in social worker, and
11 I'm a licensed clinical social worker.
12 Q When did you begin working for
13 Hillsborough County?
14 A In 2014, August.
15 Q Who is your direct supervisor?
16 A JoAnn Rollins.
17 Q Now, prior to coming to work for
18 Hillsborough County, please describe your work
19 experience for the board members.
20 A I have been employed as a licensed
21 clinical social worker for 40 years. I have spanned
22 the child welfare system working in community mental
23 health, substance abuse, homelessness, again, child
24 welfare and various other positions.
25 Q Did you serve as the program director at

56
1 Alpha House?
2 A Yes, I was. I was there for six years.
3 Q Can you tell please tell the board
4 members about that part of your career?
5 A Alpha House is a maternity home and
6 transitional service for homeless women who are
7 pregnant or parenting. And so my job was to lead
8 the staff in providing housing and social services
9 for these women.
10 Q Could you please describe -- shifting
11 back to Children's Services, if you could please
12 describe the reasons children come to live at Lake
13 Magdalene Campus.
14 A For our foster-care children, all of the
15 children that we serve have either been abused,
16 abandoned or neglected. Most of them have -- their
17 parents have their rights terminated, and so they
18 are, in essence, wards of the state.
19 Q Was that true of LG, the child who's at
20 the center of this case?
21 A Her mother's rights have been terminated.
22 Q Why was she removed from the home?
23 A She was removed from the home due to
24 running away, ungovernability, and other
25 mental-health issues.

57
1 Q Was there also abuse by the mother prior
2 to removal?
3 A Yes, there was.
4 Q What is Lake Magdalene staff's most
5 important responsibility to the children who live
6 with you?
7 A The most important responsibility of
8 Hillsborough County Children's Services is to
9 provide a safe haven so that the children feel cared
10 for and we are able to work through the ravages of
11 the trauma that each of them feels and has
12 experienced.
13 Q How do your RSCs, your Residential
14 Service Coordinators, ensure that staff carry out
15 their responsibility for the welfare and the safety
16 of the children living there?
17 A Well, we have various policies on youth
18 supervision and care for the children. So it is
19 Residential Service Coordinator's responsibility to
20 make sure that staff are trained and carry out those
21 policies and procedures.
22 Q What training does staff members receive
23 to help them ensure the safety and well-being of the
24 children in their care?
25 A Well, they have policies on youth

58
1 supervision, making sure that we are -- making sure
2 that they're safe. There are certain approved
3 techniques for handling their behaviors and just in
4 general how you care for an adolescent.
5 Q And some of the techniques that they are
6 trained on, does that include NAPPI?
7 A Yes. It's called non-psychological --
8 Non-Abusive Psychological and Physical Intervention
9 techniques.
10 Q What does NAPPI teach staff members to
11 prevent them from having to lay hands on the
12 children in their care?
13 A Well, the essence of NAPPI is two-fold;
14 one, that you develop a relationship with the kids
15 so that there's a trust there and you can help them
16 with mal-adapted behaviors or behaviors that are not
17 conforming to society. So that's the first thing.
18 And then the second thing is the NAPPI verbals and
19 using your verbal skills to de-escalate situations.
20 Q Is it okay for staff to horseplay with
21 children in care?
22 A No, it is not.
23 Q Why not?
24 A Given the histories of most of our
25 children, there's a lot of physicality that they've

59
1 experienced, and so they don't have --
2 Q When you say "physicality," what are you
3 talking about?
4 A That means physical abuse that they've
5 endured. And so we don't allow horseplaying
6 because, again, you're supposed to be the trusted
7 adult. You're supposed to be the people who are
8 different from their parents. And so helping them
9 to understand that horseplaying is -- they don't
10 know the difference between horseplaying and any
11 other type of physical -- physicality. And so we
12 say basically no, no horseplaying.
13 Q When you say they don't understand the
14 difference between horseplay and the other
15 physicality, do you mean abuse?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And what could happen if a staff member
18 would engage in horseplay? What are the possible
19 scenarios?
20 A Well, it can escalate because, again, you
21 don't know what the triggers are for the children,
22 okay, and how they're going to act or react. And
23 also too, it's a recreation possibly of where they
24 come from, their background. And so, again, in
25 their mind -- remember that they're young. And even

60
1 though their chronological age may be sixteen, their
2 emotional age may be three.
3 And so it's hard. Their judgment is not
4 good, and their intellectual capacity and cognitive
5 functions sometimes can't -- does not allow them to
6 make those distinctions.
7 Q That was a pretty big gap. You said that
8 somebody who is chronologically sixteen could
9 emotionally be three. That sounds -- it sounded
10 like an exaggeration. Can you get a little more in
11 depth with the board members on what you mean?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And was that an exaggeration?
14 A No. Erik Erikson is a psychologist, a
15 renowned psychologist, and he described the
16 emotional developmental stages that a person needs
17 to go through to be a fulfilled adult or human
18 being. There are certain tasks that people have to
19 go through.
20 When there is trauma, the child -- or the
21 person gets stuck. So if the trauma happens at
22 three years old, they get stuck emotionally. Now,
23 their bodies will go on, you know, and their ability
24 to adapt will go on. But when their coping
25 mechanisms and their judgment is a three-year-old,

61
1 they'll be at that three-year-old level.
2 Q Thank you. If a physical altercation is
3 initiated by a child in care, what are staff members
4 prohibited from doing when trying to stop the
5 altercation?
6 A Well, basically they're not -- they can't
7 lay hands on them unless they are -- there are
8 certain conditions. But they need to try to
9 separate them, again by de-escalating them with
10 their verbals using -- and then if they must
11 restrain, we have the X shield, which is a NAPPI
12 technique.
13 There is one-arm escorts to get them away
14 or other non-threatening types of techniques. But
15 you also should call for assistance, you know, call
16 for assistance so that you can de-escalate the
17 situation and move the kids away.
18 Q If a staff member on campus is slapped by
19 a child, is it okay to slap them back?
20 A No.
21 Q And if the X shield is not an option
22 because things are happening too fast, what do you
23 do?
24 A Well, again, you're going to call for
25 assistance. And if the staff member cannot, then

62
1 they need to what we call tap out and have another
2 staff member try to intervene.
3 Q How is a child in care affected if their
4 caregiver at Lake Mag hits them?
5 A Well, again, because they're children of
6 trauma, and, again, we don't always know what those
7 triggers are, then you, in essence, can retraumatize
8 the child and take them back to where they were in
9 their background, you know, and bring up memories
10 and bring up actions.
11 Q Is the child in care affected in the same
12 way if their caregiver at Lake Mag takes a swing at
13 the child but doesn't make contact?
14 A Well, whether you make contact or not,
15 again, we're in a position of trust. And so a child
16 does not expect that that's going to happen, you
17 know, so that can be just as traumatizing as if you
18 make contact.
19 Q How are bystander children affected if
20 their caregiver at Lake Mag hits or takes a swing at
21 another child in care in their presence?
22 A Again, because we do not know what every
23 child's triggers are, again, you have the effect of
24 maybe traumatizing the other kids in the room.
25 Q Who do you supervise at Lake Mag?

63
1 A At this point in time, I do the clinical
2 staff as well as the operations staff, so the direct
3 care, so there are 77.
4 Q As of March 3rd, whom did you supervise?
5 A The direct care as well as the clinical.
6 Q So the same group of people?
7 A Same group of people, yes.
8 Q Do you know the appellant in this case,
9 Tre Lawson?
10 A Yes.
11 Q What role did he play in your
12 organization?
13 A He was a residential service coordinator.
14 Q Is that a supervisory position?
15 A Yes, it is. He was responsible for the
16 day-to-day operations of his shift.
17 Q On the date of the incident that's
18 central to this case, March 3rd, did you also
19 supervise Michelle Veale?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q What role did she play?
22 A Well, she was a case manager. And on
23 that particular day, she was supervising a birthday
24 party for one of our youth that was aging out.
25 Q What does a case manager do generally?

64
1 A Basically service advocation, making sure
2 that the children have, I guess, the ancillary,
3 those services that they need to support them in the
4 placement.
5 Q And does a case manager have a reporting
6 relationship with an RSC? Like are they boss and
7 subordinate?
8 A No.
9 Q So different chain altogether?
10 A Um-hum.
11 Q Were you present on the evening of March
12 3rd, 2018 at Lake Mag?
13 A No, I was not.
14 Q How did you learn about Mr. Lawson's
15 conduct, Mr. Lawson's March 3rd conduct?
16 A On March 5th, Ms. Veale came to me and
17 said that Mr. Lawson had struck the child, and I
18 immediately had her describe the situation to me,
19 and then I had her make a call to the abuse
20 registry.
21 Q Should she have called the abuse registry
22 on her own on Saturday?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Why didn't she, if you know?
25 A I really don't know.

65
1 Q Did she explain to you why she didn't
2 call right away?
3 A She said to me she needed -- she was
4 trying to get herself together so she did not make
5 that call.
6 Q Do you know what she meant, trying to get
7 herself together?
8 A Well, she was trying -- you know, she was
9 trying to think should I call or shouldn't I call,
10 you know.
11 Q Should that have even been a debate?
12 A No.
13 Q Was she disciplined in any way for not
14 calling right away?
15 A Yes, there was a coaching, um-hum.
16 Q What was the coaching?
17 A The coaching was the review of the
18 Florida law that says we are mandated reporters.
19 Also our policies and procedures that when an
20 incident like this happens, that you must notify me
21 and call the abuse registry.
22 Q Who performed the coaching?
23 A I did.
24 Q So other than talking to Ms. Veale -- did
25 you say you told her to call the abuse hotline?

66
1 A Yes, I instructed her.
2 Q Were you present when she did that?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Did you participate in the call or just
5 observe?
6 A I just observed.
7 Q What other steps did you take after you
8 found out about the incident?
9 A Then I notified my director, Ms. JoAnn
10 Rollins.
11 Q Did you take any other steps?
12 A Not at that time. We got -- the abuse
13 call was made. The incident report was written.
14 And, again, after discussing it with Ms. Rollins, we
15 decided that there needed to be further steps and so
16 we would involve HR.
17 Q Did you review video surveillance
18 regarding the incident?
19 A Yes.
20 Q When did you do that?
21 A I did it once -- once we got the video,
22 the video was taken out of the system, and then I
23 also did it with the CPI.
24 Q What did you see on the video?
25 A I saw a birthday party. I saw Ms. Veale.

67
1 I saw Cynthia Simmons. I saw the children. I saw
2 Mr. Lawson come in and he had a soda in his hands.
3 I saw the child hit at him twice, and then I saw him
4 hit her.
5 Q Did you see where Mr. Lawson was
6 positioned?
7 A Yes, I did. He was leaning back on like
8 the garbage can.
9 Q Was the garbage can like a big round
10 thing?
11 A It's like square, it's a big square
12 thing. He was leaning on that.
13 Q It looks like a piece of furniture?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Now, during the birthday party in
16 question, with respect to the chain of command on
17 campus, was Cynthia Simmons subordinate to Mr.
18 Lawson?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Was Ms. Tate subordinate to Mr. Lawson?
21 A Yes.
22 Q We've already covered Ms. Veale's
23 relationship. Did anything in the video lead you to
24 believe that Mr. Lawson's behavior violated
25 Children's Services' expectations?

68
1 A Yes. When I saw him hit at her, I mean
2 that is clearly a violation. Our policies say that
3 we are -- you know, were are not to hit children,
4 we're not to humiliate them. We're not to do
5 anything that's going to again cause them any injury
6 physically or psychologically.
7 Q Was there anything else you would have
8 expected Mr. Lawson to do the night of the birthday
9 party to keep that child and the other children in
10 the room safe?
11 A Well, the incident -- this child had been
12 disruptive. And I would have expected one of the
13 staff or Mr. Lawson to take her out of the room so
14 that she was not -- didn't pose no more disruption
15 and could be de-escalated and whatever issues she
16 was experiencing at that time could have been
17 resolved.
19 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Lawson?
20 CROSS-EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. LAWSON:
22 Q Ms. Rhodes, you said that you were
23 working in child welfare for 40 plus years, or did I
24 get that correct?
25 A Yes, post master's 40 years.

69
1 Q 40 years. Okay. May you explain to me
2 the procedure for an internal investigation?
3 A An internal investigation?
4 Q Yes.
5 A The internal investigation, you mean this
6 one or just in general?
7 Q In general.
8 A Okay, just in general. An internal
9 investigation where we would take the facts, take
10 statements from the employees, the children, review
11 them and see what summary could be made.
12 Q That evening, according to Ms. Michelle
13 Veale's interview, there were approximately 18
14 children and five staff in the cafeteria?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Why didn't I get statements from all
17 children and staff that was in the cafeteria?
18 A The decision was made that HR would help
19 -- would conduct the investigation.
20 Q So that was the difference between this
21 investigation and other investigations that HR was
22 conducting, they were only to going to interview a
23 certain amount of individuals?
24 A No. We turned that investigation over to
25 HR to conduct.

70
1 Q May you explain the steps after an
2 abusive investigation is completed?
3 A After the CPI makes their report, then it
4 is brought back to the agency and we determine what
5 is going to be the disposition.
6 Q Okay. Because I know before, all we did,
7 CPI returns the disposition and we go by their
8 recommendations. Why did this change?
9 A In terms of this?
10 Q The CPI's recommended disposition, which
11 we always go by with any investigations, we normally
12 wait on the CPI. They determine what happens.
13 A Um-hum.
14 Q They give us their summary, their
15 disposition, their recommendations and disposition
16 and we go forward with that. Why did it change with
17 this case?
18 A Well, in consultation with human
19 resources, it was decided that because we felt that
20 policies had been broken that we needed to take
21 another course.
22 Q Is that normal with abuse investigations,
23 that you determine after the CPI is involved --
24 because CPIs are the ones that pretty much are paid
25 to do this, and they look into it, that's what they

71
1 focus on, and they determine the outcome of that.
2 So despite what CPI had, you were going to do your
3 own judgment anyways. Correct?
4 A In consultation with HR.
5 Q Okay. When you reviewed the camera, you
6 mentioned that you saw me slap LG. Correct?
7 A It appeared from what I witnessed, yes.
8 Q So it appears, so it's not definitive,
9 but it appears?
10 A Well, from what I saw.
11 Q Okay. Where did this slap appear to
12 occur?
13 A It happened -- oh. On the body?
14 Q Yes.
15 A On the face. I'm sorry.
16 Q Face. No problem. When you watched the
17 camera footage, what different speeds did you watch
18 it at?
19 A I watched it in regular speed, and then I
20 saw it in slow motion.
21 Q Slow motion that Ms. Green sent over?
22 A Yes.
23 Q So you didn't do it on your own in slow
24 motion?
25 A No.

72
1 Q Are you aware that for every second on
2 the video, there's four frames?
3 A No, I did not know that.
4 Q I wish I was able to show you on there.
5 But every second per video, there is four frames.
6 Sorry. You mentioned that when you notified me of
7 the report -- this is what I got from the CPI's
8 report -- that it didn't appear as if I thought it
9 was serious. Is that correct?
10 A No. When I spoke with you, basically,
11 you know, you said -- what I remember that you were
12 saying, let it play out, you know, that it was an
13 allegation and that was -- and we would let it play
14 out.
15 Q Why do you think that I reacted that?
16 A Why do I --
17 Q -- think that I reacted in such a manner?
18 A I don't know.
19 Q With you being my supervisor, my direct
20 supervisor at that time, is there any reason that I
21 wasn't notified of the status of the case once it
22 was closed?
23 A No.
24 Q Because I didn't hear anything from HR or
25 Children's Services for three months after the case

73
1 was closed. Is that common?
2 A Not to my knowledge.
3 Q I know Ms. Green asked a question. She
4 said when kids are fighting, how do you break them
5 up.
6 MS. GREEN: Objection. That question was
7 not asked.
8 MR. ZINOBER: Why don't you phrase it
9 differently?
10 Q Somewhere along the lines there was a
11 question, if kids got into a physical altercation,
12 how would we intervene.
13 A Um-hum.
14 Q What was your response to that again?
15 A You would use NAPPI de-escalation to try
16 to break it up. And if you needed assistance, you
17 would call for assistance and, if necessary, you
18 could use the physical interventions of a one-arm
19 escort or one, you know, of the approved NAPPI
20 physical interventions.
21 Q As far as Ms. Veale and reporting abuse
22 the evening that it happened, you said that she
23 mentioned she was trying to get herself together?
24 A Um-hum.
25 Q For over 30 hours?

74
1 A That's what she told me.
2 Q Okay. And she received a coaching card
3 for this. In my experience working with kids in
4 situations where abuse has taken place or
5 allegations of abuse where it is not reported is
6 considered vicarious liability because you're pretty
7 much giving permission for a kid to be abused, and
8 that's neither here nor there.
9 You mentioned my position was I was
10 leaning back on the garbage can. Correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q When you reviewed the video, you said you
13 reviewed it twice, once when Michelle initially
14 reported it to you and then again with the CPI?
15 A Yes.
16 Q At that time, did you allow the CPI to
17 look at it from its view, or did you pretty much
18 point out what he should be imaging?
19 A All the CPI asked me was to identify the
20 persons in the room.
21 Q Okay. Can you tell me what time Ms.
22 Veale notified you of this alleged incident?
23 A I believe that it was like 2, 2:30 in the
24 afternoon.
25 Q And once she finished, that's when she

75
1 wrote the incident report for it?
2 A After she made the --
3 Q -- the call?
4 A Um-hum.
5 Q Right here it has the notification at 11
6 a.m. on March 5th.
7 MS. GREEN: Can you please let us know
8 what you're referring to?
9 MR. LAWSON: Yes, I'm sorry. I'm
10 referencing the incident report that Ms.
11 Michelle Veale wrote.
12 MS. GREEN: So that's Exhibit No. 1? And
13 what page?
14 MR. LAWSON: The cover page.
15 MS. GREEN: Thank you.
16 BY MR. LAWSON:
17 Q It shows the date and time of
18 notification, March 5th at 11:00 a.m. And on the
19 second-to-the-last page where it says what measures
20 was taken, abuse wasn't called until 2:00. So it
21 was three hours to determine that this incident or
22 accusation was considered or looked at as abuse? Or
23 what reason did it take so long after the report to
24 call it in?
25 A I think that there is an error. I think

76
1 there is an error in the narrative. I would have to
2 have the abuse report taken from Tallahassee to
3 ascertain the actual time.
4 MR. LAWSON: Okay. No problem. No
5 further questions.
6 MR. ZINOBER: Any redirect?
7 MS. GREEN: One moment, please. No
8 redirect.
9 MR. ZINOBER: Board-member questions?
10 MS. HOSLER: I have a few questions
11 actually.
12 EXAMINATION
13 BY MS. HOSLER:
14 Q You testified that there are protocols in
15 regards to children disruptions, children fighting.
16 Is there any specific protocol as to handling
17 aggression by a child against a staff member?
18 A Yes. I mean, because if a child is
19 aggressing toward a staff member, again, we're going
20 to de-escalate that child, separate them, try to
21 find out what the issues are. Usually that staff
22 member doesn't go back into the cottage with that
23 child until we are able to either have a mediation
24 or some type of intervention.
25 Q That was some testimony on the night of

77
1 March 3rd there was an incident between Michelle and
2 the child. Do you know anything about that? Are
3 you able to describe?
4 A Only what I have read.
5 Q Okay.
6 A That there were -- the child and Ms.
7 Veale -- she had been disruptive with Ms. Veale and
8 Ms. Veale had tried to redirect her, and then Ms.
9 Veale reported that she had asked that that child be
10 taken out of the party.
11 Q Okay. The children, how do they identify
12 the employees?
13 A Well, the employees wear uniforms.
14 Q Okay. What about names?
15 A Well, either by their first name, their
16 last name, or they may say Ms. Rhonda, so in various
17 ways.
18 Q Was Mr. Lawson's name obvious on the tag?
19 A On his --
20 Q His name tag?
21 A Yes. You mean on his badge?
22 Q Yes.
23 A Yes.
24 Q His full name?
25 A Yes.

78
1 Q Was that required?
2 A Yes. All of our name badges have their
3 first and last names on them.
4 Q And all employees are required to wear
5 that name badge at all times?
6 A They should, yes.
7 Q The child's run-away history, while she
8 was at Lake Magdalene, do you know roughly about
9 when her first run was?
10 A No. I'm not absolutely sure, huh-uh.
11 Q Was it prior to the incident with Mr.
12 Lawson?
13 A Oh, yes.
14 Q How about afterwards?
15 A Yes, she had running behaviors after
16 that.
17 Q Do you know roughly about how many run
18 incidents she had?
19 A I think, about three or four.
20 Q While at Lake Magdalene?
21 A Um-hum.
22 Q How long was she at Lake Magdalene?
23 A She was there about a month and a half.
24 MS. HOSLER: Thank you.
25 EXAMINATION

79
1 BY MR. TRICHLER:
2 Q Can you help me clarify your protocol?
3 You mentioned if you have a staff member and a child
4 get into an altercation, I think you said that
5 someone should separate the child and employee. Is
6 that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q What employee should do that?
9 A Well, again, because we have a number of
10 employees, so if we have a child that's charging at
11 a staff member, then another staff member should --
12 they should call for assistance, and another staff
13 member should help escort the child out.
14 Q How about if other staff members are
15 present and they observe it, should those staff
16 members who observed it interact and try to separate
17 that child and staff member?
18 A Yes, yes.
19 Q In the video, did you see Ms. Michelle
20 Veale try to follow that protocol at all?
21 A No, I didn't.
22 Q Was that something you would have
23 expected your employees to do?
24 A We have case managers, we have clinical,
25 et cetera. Usually when it's for direct

80
1 intervention with the kids, it would probably be
2 another childcare staff.
3 Q You talked about mandatory reporters?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Michelle Veale, she's a mandatory
6 reporter?
7 A Yes, she is.
8 Q It's mandatory reporting, that's by state
9 law. Correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q That means it's mandatory, it's the law?
12 If she witnesses suspected abuse or neglect, she
13 needs to call the hotline. Correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q I just wanted to follow up on something
16 Mr. Lawson said. Is it your practice to follow the
17 CPI's recommendations at the conclusion of their
18 investigation?
19 A Most instances.
20 Q In this particular case, did you have any
21 conversations with the child about the incident?
22 A No, I did not.
23 MR. TRICHLER: Thank you.
24 EXAMINATION
25 BY MS. BELL:

81
1 Q Going back to what he was just asking
2 about, Ms. Veale being a mandated reporter. Is the
3 same true for Ms. Simmons?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Did Ms. Simmons in any way follow Exhibit
6 17, which is the policy on reporting abuse, or
7 Exhibit 16, the intervention techniques policy or
8 Exhibit 18, the abuse reporting policy?
9 A No, she did not.
10 Q What is specifically Ms. Veale's role
11 with the child?
12 A She was her case manager.
13 Q What does that mean?
14 A So when a case gets assigned, they have a
15 therapist and a case manager. The case manager is
16 the person who goes to court with the child, makes
17 sure that they have clothing, makes sure that they
18 have schooling, makes sure they have enrichment
19 activities. That's the role of the case manager at
20 our agency.
21 Q So she's very much an advocate for that
22 child?
23 A Very much so, yes.
24 Q So based on the video and based on your
25 policies, you thought an appropriate punishment for

82
1 not protecting this child, for separating the child
2 from Mr. Lawson, for reporting this alleged abuse
3 was to essentially -- I think you all were,
4 essentially, "Hey, watch this training video."
5 Is there anything in Ms. Veale or Ms.
6 Simmons' permanent record about not following these
7 policies and placing a minor child in harm's way?
8 Is there anything in their record, or did they just
9 get that coaching?
10 A They just got the coaching card.
11 Q Did Ms. Cynthia get the coaching as well?
12 A Yes, she did.
13 Q Was KH interviewed?
14 A KH?
15 Q The girl with the ponytail.
16 A I'm not sure. Again, HR handled the
17 investigation.
18 Q There are several places in here -- and I
19 believe it's reported from you -- whether it's the
20 CPI or the sheriff's office. It says that no
21 termination is recommended, there's no termination,
22 there's no termination. How did we get from no
23 termination to termination?
24 A Because the thing -- what was said to the
25 CPI when he came out was, we would wait until we got

83
1 his report to determine what the disposition was.
2 That's what I remember from the conversation with
3 the CPI.
4 Q I can't really search on here because
5 it's a PDF. But that's not what this paperwork
6 says. It says on more that one occasion, no
7 termination.
8 A Yes.
9 Q At what point was Mr. Lawson removed from
10 Lake Mag?
11 A I believe he was removed almost
12 immediately.
13 Q So Monday, you think?
14 A I'm trying to think. I can't remember,
15 but it was probably within a week.
16 Q So then he went to pet resources?
17 A He went to pet resources.
18 Q He was there for three months while the
19 investigation was going on?
20 A Um-hum.
21 Q But the investigation wrapped up after a
22 couple of weeks. Is that correct?
23 A No, because I think we got the report
24 probably about three months.
25 MS. BELL: I'm referring, actually, to

84
1 what, Mr. Lawson, you brought up. So you had
2 this three-month gap, and you seemed to think
3 the investigation was wrapped up very soon
4 after the incident, yet you were kind of in
5 this purgatory for three months?
6 MR. LAWSON: Well, I was actually in pet
7 resources for five months, from March 7 until
8 August 6. The investigation had been closed on
9 April 26.
10 EXAMINATION
11 BY MS. HOSLER:
12 Q Can you clarify for us why the gap in
13 time?
14 A We were waiting after it was -- when they
15 were doing the investigation, again, because of
16 circumstances, we had turned the investigation over
17 to human resources, our human resources department.
18 Q May I ask why you chose to turn the
19 investigation over to HR after CPI concluded their
20 investigation?
21 A Yes. Ms. Rollins and I decided because
22 there had been a history with Mr. Lawson, we wanted
23 to make sure that the investigation was handled in a
24 non-biased way and by, again, our human resources
25 department so that there would be no, again, sense

85
1 of bias on our part.
2 Q So your decision to refer this to HR was
3 the culmination of prior events involving Mr.
4 Lawson? Is that what you're saying?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Can you describe those incidents for us,
7 please?
8 A Well, I wasn't his direct supervisor.
9 But I think a year before, that he had gone to PDH,
10 predisciplinary hearing, and from what I was told,
11 he had prevailed. So when this situation came up,
12 again, Ms. Rollins and I talked about, again,
13 turning it over to our human resources department so
14 it could be investigated in a non-biased way.
15 Q PDH, can you explain to us what that is?
16 A A predisciplinary hearing.
17 Q He prevailed?
18 A Right.
19 Q But, yet, you chose that was probative
20 for some reason?
21 A Excuse me?
22 Q The fact that he prevailed at PDH
23 hearing, you thought that was probative for some
24 reason and necessitated a referral to HR?
25 A Well, yeah, to make sure, again, the

86
1 investigation was done in a non-biased way.
2 MS. BELL: If I may tag on to that.
3 EXAMINATION
4 BY MS. BELL:
5 Q So HR is the one who sent him to PDH for
6 the first incident. CPI cleared him, yet in this
7 case, CPI has cleared him, and again you're kicking
8 it over to HR, who is the one who basically had
9 the issue -- with the first issue had the problem.
10 So how is turning it over to HR when CPI has already
11 cleared him --
12 A No, no, no. The sequence of events, no,
13 no, no. When CPI started to investigate, we sent it
14 to our HR at the start, at the beginning.
15 Q Okay.
16 A No, it was not after. It was at the
17 beginning of the process.
18 Q But going back to the first incident --
19 A Um-hum.
20 Q -- HR is the one who referred him to PDH.
21 Correct?
22 A That, I'm not familiar.
23 Q Well, somebody --
24 A Yes, somebody.
25 Q Somebody other than CPI did, and CPI

87
1 cleared him. Correct? Is that correct, you think?
2 A I'm not --
3 MR. CANASI: I don't think CPI had
4 anything to do with the first incident.
5 MS. GREEN: There was nothing about
6 CPI --
7 THE WITNESS: CPI wasn't involved in the
8 first case.
9 MR. ZINOBER: Danielle?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 EXAMINATION
12 BY MS. HOSLER:
13 Q But he prevailed. Right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Were there other incidents besides those
16 two?
18 Q Okay.
19 A Again, I started to supervise him in
20 December of 2017.
21 Q So what was the amount of time that
22 lapsed between the time period in which CPI cleared
23 him and HR made the decision to terminate him?
24 MR. CANASI: That would have been April
25 26, right, until August?

88
1 A No, no, no, no because --
2 MS. HOSLER: It was his testimony it was
3 hers.
4 THE WITNESS: HR, they investigated. I
5 don't think they came to -- it was July of
6 2018.
7 MR. CANASI: The case was closed in late
8 April, so that would have been the time that
9 case would have been done.
10 MS. HOSLER: So it was April, not July.
11 MS. BELL: That's is a big gap. April?
12 We think April?
13 THE WITNESS: Um-hum.
14 EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. CANASI:
16 Q Okay. So there are three outcomes from
17 the CPI investigation?
18 A Um-hum.
19 Q Abuse?
20 A Um-hum.
21 Q No abuse?
22 A Um-hum.
23 Q Not substantiated?
24 A Right.
25 Q In his case, the findings were not

89
1 substantiated?
2 A Right.
3 Q Have there been any other employees that
4 you know of or that Ms. Green knows of or that you
5 know of that ever had a not substantiated finding by
6 CPI that was terminated?
8 Q So the only time that we've had a CPI
9 investigation where the employee was terminated
10 before this one was because abuse was proven. Is
11 that what you're telling me?
12 A I'm saying that, to my knowledge, I don't
13 know the circumstances that you described.
14 Q Well, there's no circumstances. A county
15 attorney has stated that a CPI investigation can
16 result in three outcomes?
17 A Right.
18 Q Abuse, no abuse, not substantiated?
19 A Um-hum.
20 Q HR, from the testimony I've heard so
21 far -- and please correct me, someone, if I heard
22 wrong -- is that guidelines, the findings of CPI are
23 used to determine the outcome of that employee's
24 employment with the county and that the only time
25 that an employee has been terminated is because CPI

90
1 determined that something wrong happened, that there
2 was abuse, not "no abuse," not "not substantiated,"
3 abuse.
4 A Um-hum.
5 Q So in this case, CPI found --
6 MR. ZINOBER: You have to answer
7 verbally.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 Q In this case, CPI determined not
10 substantiated?
11 A Um-hum.
12 Q Yet HR decided that in spite of what CPI
13 said, "We're still going to terminate the employee"?
14 And that was based on the fact that you all went
15 back on another abuse allegation that at no time was
16 he found at fault for that. See what I'm trying to
17 get at?
18 A Yeah. But I --
19 Q What I'm trying to get at is this: If
20 I'm on trial for murder and I was on trial for
21 murder once before in another case but was found not
22 guilty, I believe -- and you can correct me if I'm
23 wrong, Mr. Zinober -- that the fact that I was found
24 innocent of murder before cannot even be brought up
25 in my new trial. Correct?

91
1 A Um-hum, right.
2 MR. ZINOBER: That's correct.
3 Q So I'm having a very difficult time
4 accepting the fact that the reason this was kicked
5 back to HR after CPI made their findings is the fact
6 that you all went back to another incident with Mr.
7 Lawson that was reported that became unsubstantiated
8 and he was not found -- he prevailed?
9 A Um-hum.
10 Q I've got a real problem with that. And
11 my problem with that is so big that, quite frankly,
12 I'm ready to ask Mr. Zinober if we can stop this
13 hearing.
14 MS. BELL: If I may quickly tag on to
15 that.
16 EXAMINATION
17 BY MS. BELL:
18 Q The fact that you have two other
19 employees, Ms. Veale and Ms. Simmons, who clearly
20 violated policies -- and you said earlier during
21 your testimony on direct --
22 MR. TRICHLER: Violated the law.
23 Q -- you said that you decided to terminate
24 -- or it was decided by HR to terminate Mr. Lawson
25 because policies were broken. Yes, ma'am, policies

92
1 were broken by Ms. Simmons and Ms. Veale. This man
2 has been terminated, and they got a, "Ah, we're
3 going to make you watch a video."
4 Particularly, Ms. Michelle -- and I
5 haven't even gotten into what Ms. Simmons' role is.
6 But if Ms. Michelle's role is to be the advocate and
7 the protector of this child, she did not walk across
8 the room. Ms. Simmons did not get up off her stool.
9 At no time did anybody say, "Mr. Lawson,
10 are you okay? Child, are you okay?" They did not
11 separate them. The party went on for hours, even
12 though, I think, Ms. Simmons says, "Oh, well, you
13 know, we told him to break it up," no, no, that's
14 not what happened. That's not what happened
15 according to any other testimony. So I concur with
16 you. This is very upsetting, very upsetting.
17 MS. HOSLER: I have one final question.
18 EXAMINATION
19 BY MS. HOSLER:
20 Q Michelle Veale, was she previously -- did
21 she have any brush-ins with HR or anything like
22 that?
23 A No.
24 Q So she has a clean record as far as you
25 know?

93
1 A Yes, um-hum.
2 Q How about Ms. Simmons?
3 A Yes, yes.
4 Ms. HOSLER: Thank you.
5 MR. CANASI: Mr. Carbaugh, do you have
6 any questions?
7 MR. CARBAUGH: No.
8 MR. CANASI: Ms. Cichon?
9 MS. CICHON: Just one point of
10 clarification.
11 EXAMINATION
12 BY MS. CICHON:
13 Q You've been in your leadership role since
14 2014. Correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Is this the first incident you've had
17 where a member of leadership or of staff have put
18 their hands -- or perceived to put their hands on a
19 child?
20 A No.
21 Q How many other times has it happened
22 under your leadership?
23 A That I know of, two other times.
24 Q Were those two other individuals
25 terminated? Still working?

94
1 A No, they're terminated.
2 MS. CICHON: That's all of my questions.
3 EXAMINATION
4 BY MS. HOSLER:
5 Q Can you describe the circumstances?
6 A One of them tripped a child who was on
7 crutches.
8 Q So the staff was the aggressor, or was it
9 an accidental tripping?
10 A No. The child was the aggressor. The
11 staff member tripped him.
12 Q The child on crutches was the aggressor?
13 A Yeah, and so -- but the employee then
14 knocked him down.
15 Q Was there a CPI investigation?
16 A Yes.
17 Q What was outcome of that investigation?
18 A It was founded, and he was terminated.
19 Q So CPI --
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay. What about the second incident?
22 A The second incident was, we had a -- the
23 child was the aggressor and the employee basically
24 took him to the ground, he slammed him to the
25 ground, and so the employee was terminated.

95
1 Q Was there a CPI investigation?
2 A Yes.
3 Q What was the finding?
4 A It was substantiated.
5 Q So this particular case is different from
6 its predecessors. Correct? Would you say so?
7 A In those two cases?
8 Q Yes.
9 A Yes.
10 Q Based on CPI's findings?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And those employees were terminated?
13 A Right.
14 MS. HOSLER: Okay.
15 MR. ZINOBER: Any follow-up? Ms. Green?
16 MS. GREEN: Redirect, if I may.
17 MR. ZINOBER: Yes.
19 BY MS. GREEN:
20 Q In the two cases you just described, were
21 the findings verified because there was injury to
22 the children?
23 A Yes.
24 MR. ZINOBER: Let's try to avoid leading
25 even though Mr. Lawson is not a lawyer.

96
1 MS. GREEN: Sure.
2 MR. ZINOBER: I've been very patient, but
3 there's been an awful lot of leading.
4 MS. GREEN: Okay.
5 BY MS. GREEN:
6 Q Is it important, or how does it factor
7 in -- maybe that's a better way to ask it. How does
8 it factor in in your mind if there is an altercation
9 between a staff member and a child and the staff
10 member is an RSC?
11 A Well, again, the RSC role model, he's the
12 leader of a staff, you know, and so what he
13 sanctions or she sanctions is staff behavior, you
14 know, is usually modeled for the rest of the staff.
15 Q Of all the different staff members in
16 terms of position, who in your estimation would have
17 the best knowledge, the best training in what to do
18 when they're involved in an altercation with a
19 child?
20 A In the hierarchy, it would be the
21 Residential Service Coordinator.
22 Q What kind of standard do you hold a
23 Residential Services Coordinator to as compared to
24 other staff members on campus?
25 A Well, again, he or she is going to be the

97
1 role model and the leader, and so they have to be
2 held to a higher standard because, again, they have
3 to model for the rest of the staff, the
4 expectations.
5 Q And the CPI investigations, what are they
6 investigating? Are they investigating whether your
7 employees violated your policies?
8 A They're investigating whether the child
9 was harmed physically or psychological.
10 Q If law enforcement investigates anything
11 that happens on campus, what are they investigating?
12 A Well, they're looking for criminality,
13 have laws been broken.
14 Q Were you involved in the decision of
15 whether or not to discipline Mr. Lawson and at what
16 level?
17 A I was in the discussions.
18 Q And did you attend the predisciplinary
19 hearing that led to this dismissal?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q During that predisciplinary hearing or
22 prior to it, did you have the opportunity to review
23 the documents, review the charges against Mr.
24 Lawson?
25 A Yes, I did.

98
1 Q What was he charged with?
2 A He was charged with physical abuse of a
3 child.
4 Q Was he charged with anything else, or was
5 it just about the March 3rd incident?
6 A As far as I know, it was the March 3rd
7 incident.
8 Q So if he had engaged in misconduct in the
9 past, that wasn't a part of it?
10 A That wasn't a part of it, no.
11 Q So it was isolated to just what happened
12 on March 3rd?
13 A March 3rd, the birthday party, yes.
14 EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. CANASI:
16 Q That's not what you said before, though.
17 Right?
18 A What I --
19 Q What you said before was that the reason
20 that it was sent back to HR after the CPI
21 investigation was because there had been another
22 incident with Mr. Lawson before.
23 A There had been -- a couple of years ago,
24 there was an incident with Mr. Lawson.
25 Q So if there had not been an incident with

99
1 Mr. Lawson a couple of years before, would you have
2 sent it back to HR after CPI came in and said --
3 MS. BELL: Because you said very
4 clearly --
5 A Wait a minute. But what I said was
6 that --
7 Q We can go back on the record and repeat
8 it.
9 A Okay. That it was done -- the allegation
10 was made. I reported it to Ms. Rollins. She and I
11 had a discussion, and we felt that it should go to
12 HR so that there was not a bias perception in the
13 case, so it was done at the beginning. It was not
14 done at the -- it didn't go to HR.
15 Q After CPI made their determination, you
16 kicked it back to HR?
17 A No. We were doing -- well, HR was
18 always -- already involved, they had not stepped out
19 of the process. They were still involved in the
20 process.
21 EXAMINATION
22 BY MS. BELL:
23 Q Does CPI have a history of bias?
24 A Not that I know of, no.
25 Q You just said a few times now --

100
1 including earlier what you were referring to -- that
2 the reason you kicked it to HR, despite what CPI
3 found, was because of the bias issue, you didn't
4 want there to be any perceived bias.
5 A We kicked it to HR while -- before the
6 process started, and we were in --
7 Q Because you didn't want any bias?
8 A Bias, yes.
9 Q From CPI?
10 A No, no, from our staff, for anybody --
11 Q Is HR not part of your staff?
12 A Well, they are. But because of the fact
13 that our staff did not -- should not have been
14 involved because, again, there was an incident
15 prior. So HR -- we gave it to HR to investigate, to
16 make sure that there was no bias on our part.
17 EXAMINATION
18 BY MS. HOSLER:
19 Q No appearance of bias?
20 A No appearance of bias, yes.
21 Q Right.
22 A Thank you.
24 MR. LAWSON: Can I?

101
1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. LAWSON:
3 Q I'm looking at Exhibit 3, which is the
4 CPI's chronological notes. I don't know, the pages
5 aren't numbered, but close to the end is Mr.
6 Duckworth's narrative, which states pretty much that
7 Mr. Duckworth advised the CPI he was complete in his
8 investigation, told him how he felt and allowed the
9 CPI to continue its own investigation, so HR was
10 pretty much done at that time?
11 A Mr. Duckworth had left, so it was
12 assigned to someone else.
13 Q So after Mr. Duckworth had interviewed
14 and investigated and passed on his information to
15 the CPI, someone else went behind him and did it
16 over?
17 A It was Mr. Duckworth -- this is my
18 understanding, what was reported to me. Mr.
19 Duckworth was completing his investigation, okay,
20 and then it was assigned to another HR person.
21 MR. LAWSON: That's six pages from the
22 back if you want to look at it.
23 MS. HOSLER: Why it was reassigned?
24 MS. BELL: What? Why?
25 MS. HOSLER: After what HR representative

102
1 concluded --
2 THE WITNESS: Mr. Duckworth left
3 abruptly. He left abruptly.
4 MS. HOSLER: Okay. So it was never
5 re-investigated?
6 THE WITNESS: No, no, no, he continued.
7 He left abruptly from our human resources and
8 someone else then picked it up.
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY MS. HOSLER:
11 Q There's something I can't sync up. What
12 is the value of a CPI investigation to your agency?
13 It seems to me -- with all due respect, it seems to
14 me like you pick out and choose what outcomes you're
15 going to hold as probative. CPI, I mean, I give
16 them a lot of value, but your agency doesn't seem
17 to.
18 A I wouldn't say that we don't.
19 Q So tell me, what is the value of the
20 their report, the outcome of their investigations to
21 your specific agency?
22 A You know, again, they are there to
23 investigate.
24 Q You trust their investigation?
25 A Yes, and to make recommendations.

103
1 Q Okay.
2 A For us then -- and then for us to make a
3 disposition.
4 Q Do you rely on their recommendations?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You describe two incidents of which you
7 did. But why didn't you in this instance?
8 A I think because of the nature of what we
9 perceive went on.
10 Q You perceived he was the aggressor?
11 A No, that -- when he hit the child, yes.
12 EXAMINATION
13 BY MS. BELL:
14 Q Yet you didn't feel that -- and I
15 shouldn't go back to it. But you didn't feel, after
16 watching this alleged abuse that's so horrific,
17 we're going to do different things this time, yet
18 your staff and their federally mandated -- or
19 legally mandated policies were not followed. That's
20 interesting.
21 MR. CANASI: So I looked at that video
22 and I got up real close and personal with it to
23 look at it real close. The resolution is
24 horrible on it, but nevertheless, I looked at
25 it close enough that it doesn't tell me or show

104
1 me that Mr. Lawson struck that child in the
2 face. It doesn't tell me that he didn't, quite
3 frankly, because the resolution is not good.
4 But what I looked at afterwards was the
5 fact that the child stood there for a while and
6 talked to him and that no other adult
7 approached him while that child was standing
8 there talking to him. Okay.
9 Now, when I was in second grade, I had a
10 really mean teacher. John F. Kennedy had just
11 been assassinated and she rolled a TV in the
12 room and she was crying. I was seven years
13 old, I didn't know what was going on. I went
14 up to her and I said, "Why are you crying?"
15 She said, "What are you stupid or
16 something?" And she slapped me across the
17 face.
18 I ran home. I didn't stand there to talk
19 to her. I ran home because I didn't live that
20 far from the school. I'm sixty years old. I
21 still remember that incident vividly. My
22 mother came back with me to the school. The
23 rest is history.
24 So, as I look at this video, I'm thinking
25 if this child is standing there still talking

105
1 to him, I don't think she's standing there
2 waiting for him to slap her again. And I
3 certainly didn't see her try to slap him again.
4 I think there was some horseplaying going
5 around, and I think that's unfortunate. Okay.
6 But I think that this entire process has just
7 gone completely wrong. And do either one of
8 the attorneys -- do the appellant or the county
9 attorney have any more questions for this
10 witness?
11 MS. GREEN: I do.
12 MR. CANASI: Let's get on with it.
13 EXAMINATION
14 BY MS. BELL:
15 Q Just one quick tag on to what you just
16 said, going back to that video. Not only did the
17 child stay and continue to speak with Mr. Lawson,
18 but KH who was standing right there came back after
19 LG was gone and went up to Mr. Lawson almost like a
20 hug.
21 She was there. She was this close when
22 it happened. She didn't seem -- that does not
23 strike me as what a child would do had she just
24 witnessed abuse that would warrant termination.
25 A You have to remember that all the

106
1 children, foster-care children, have trauma in their
2 histories.
3 Q I understand that. And the lady previous
4 said how to deal with kindness.
5 MR. CANASI: To help, they have a hard
6 time with that, yes.
7 A And sometimes we do -- sometimes children
8 exhibit what we call, identify with the aggressor.
9 And basically that means that if you have -- again,
10 that is person of power, this is a person who is --
11 for some children, it can be the parental figure.
12 And what they'll do is to make sure that they don't
13 get hurt, they will do -- they will, they will
14 identify with the aggressor. They will, you know,
15 try to get back into the aggressor's good graces.
16 BY MS. BELL:
17 Q Prior to this incident, would you have
18 ever referred to Mr. Lawson as the aggressor, an
19 aggressor, with children prior to this incident?
20 A No. But the thing about it is, again,
21 I'm not a child of trauma.
22 Q I understand that.
23 A So but having worked with children of
24 trauma --
25 Q Do you believe Mr. Lawson is an aggressor

107
1 now?
2 A At this moment, no.
3 Q Not physically right now. But is Mr.
4 Lawson an aggressor and a child abuser, yes or no,
5 in your opinion?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Based on this one incident alone?
8 A Based -- yes.
9 Q Based on everything you know about him
10 before and since, this is the only incident that
11 would lead you to that conclusion?
12 A You know, one of the things about people
13 is that you never know, again, what triggers them.
14 Okay. All of us are prone to violent behaviors, et
15 cetera, given the right circumstances. And so, you
16 know, at that moment, I felt that he abused that
17 child.
18 MS. HOSLER: One final question for you.
19 EXAMINATION
20 BY MS. HOSLER:
21 Q Is there anything, any rule in your
22 policy, which would enable a staff to defend hisself
23 or herself if struck by a child?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Can you describe that?

108
1 A And with the NAPPI, that's why we use the
2 NAPPI verbals and non-verbal, and there are certain
3 techniques. If a child is coming at you, there is a
4 way to protect your space and get them out of your
5 space, and it's called a safety shield, again, while
6 you're still trying to de-escalate them. But the
7 thing is to protect the child and yourself.
8 Q Right.
9 A And we practice the smart principles,
10 safety for both the individuals involved, okay, and,
11 again, doing it again with nurturance, you know, not
12 punitive measures.
13 Q So was that why you felt the need to
14 refer this to HR, because a NAPPI rule was violated?
15 A Yes.
16 MS. HOSLER: Okay. And that's
17 independent of CPI's tip.
18 EXAMINATION
19 BY MS. BELL:
20 Q That's not even mentioned, that's not
21 been mentioned. We asked earlier, what is this
22 about? It was about the slap. This is the first
23 time now you're saying that, "Well, it was about the
24 slap and the NAPPI thing."
25 A Well, the NAPPI thing should have been

109
1 utilized, should have been utilized.
2 Q Only if he felt he was being aggressed
3 against. It didn't look like he felt threatened.
4 He's standing there leaning, holding his drink. He
5 has no reason to engage in NAPPI if he's not being
6 aggressed against.
7 A But when she went to slap.
8 Q He said she did not make contact.
9 A But she swung at him, you know, so,
10 again --
11 Q He did not perceive it as being
12 aggressive, obviously, by his action, he was kind of
13 standing leaning back like this, so -- but now your
14 testimony is, not only was it the slap, but it's
15 also the NAPPI?
16 A NAPPI is what we utilize.
17 Q That's not the case in that chair. That
18 was her question.
19 A No, this is the slap.
20 EXAMINATION
21 BY MS. HOSLER:
22 Q The slap at which is a NAPPI violation?
23 A Right.
24 Q That's your testimony?
25 A Yes.

110
1 Q Just to be clear.
2 A Yes.
3 Q So there are various problems to this.
4 Right? So we've got sheriff's investigation, which
5 investigates criminality. There was none of that
6 here?
7 A Um-hum.
8 Q And then below that is a CPI
9 investigation, which investigates child abuse.
10 A Um-hum.
11 Q But below that is your internal policies
12 and procedures, and NAPPI is one of those. And your
13 argument is the first time she came at him, touched
14 him or not, he should have, as a person in
15 leadership, should have defended himself?
16 A And de-escalated her if she needed that
17 de-escalation.
18 Q Right. Because he failed to do so, as
19 soon as you heard the allegations, you thought it
20 was appropriate to refer to HR?
21 A Um-hum.
22 Q And the case stayed with HR until a
23 decision was made?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And that was independent of the CPI

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1 report?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Is that your -- do I have this correct?
4 A Yes.
5 MS. HOSLER: Okay.
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. CANASI:
8 Q Why isn't the child testifying?
9 A The child is not in our facility.
10 MR. CANASI: She can't come to testify?
11 A I don't know why she wasn't.
12 MR. CANASI: Why not?
13 MR. ZINOBER: Let Danielle respond.
14 MS. GREEN: That's a legal strategy
15 decision, not a witness question, in my
16 estimation. It's a legal strategy.
17 MR. CANASI: To not have her testify?
18 MS. GREEN: She doesn't get to decide who
19 testifies.
20 MR. ZINOBER: I think the chairman is
21 asking you.
22 MR. CANASI: I'm asking you.
23 MS. GREEN: Oh. Well, you want to hear
24 from my perspective? Okay.
25 MR. CANASI: Why wasn't the child

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1 testifying?
2 MS. GREEN: It was a protection thing.
3 The children that are in care there, their
4 identities, their very identities, the fact
5 that they are there, is protected.
6 MS. BELL: This man has been terminated.
7 MS. GREEN: Understood. But from an
8 evidentiary standpoint, you've heard from two
9 witnesses. There's more to come, and
10 eyewitnesses will testify. So not necessary to
11 jeopardize or make more vulnerable a child in
12 care was basically the strategy.
13 MR. CANASI: Are we done with this
14 witness?
15 MR. LAWSON: Can I just ask like two more
16 questions, please?
18 EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. LAWSON:
20 Q Just to touch bases on something. The
21 CPI chronologicals, it's Page 6 from the back, it's
22 not numbered, but it shows that Mr. Duckworth was
23 interviewed on March 15th and his investigation was
24 completed and he told the CPI what he believed and
25 it's March 15th.

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1 The case was closed by CPI April 26. So
2 I'm not understanding if they had already told him
3 how they felt, what he thought about it, and the CPI
4 proceeded with his investigation, it still came back
5 not substantiated, why would HR, or whomever, go
6 against the policy that they wrote, which is the
7 policy -- I don't have the exhibit numbers because
8 they e-mailed it to me, but dealing with employees
9 involved in reports of child abuse.
10 No. 2 states that if alleged abuse is
11 investigated by CPI, the management staff and the
12 division director will communicate and coordinate
13 with CPI and will let CPI take the lead and conduct
14 the investigation.
15 Then Section C says: In cases where the
16 Child Protective Agency determines a report closed
17 with verified indicators of abuse, neglect or
18 abandonment, the employee will immediately be
19 suspended and directly will work with HR to schedule
20 a PDH.
21 That's for verified abuse reports. It
22 doesn't say anything about no indicators or not
23 substantiated, so it seems like you all took an
24 extra step against me because it wasn't verified, it
25 was not substantiated. But you took a step of

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1 verified abuse and went to a PDH which led to my
2 termination. Can you explain why is that?
3 A And, again, in consultation with our
4 human resources department, that was the course of
5 action that we were advised.
6 Q And the two employees, someone asked, was
7 there other employees -- I think they said in a
8 supervisory role -- that had abuse cases that was
9 terminated, and you mentioned two, two of which were
10 not in supervisory roles, they were in direct care
11 staff?
12 A Right.
13 Q They were asking about supervisors.
14 A Then to answer that question, I would say
15 no.
16 Q And you mentioned that those are the only
17 cases in which you are aware that -- in your almost
18 four years now that someone has been terminated for
19 abuse, but those allegations were verified and not
20 substantiated?
21 MS. GREEN: I'm going to object. That
22 wasn't the testimony.
23 MR. ZINOBER: I'm going to overrule the
24 objection. Go ahead and answer the question.
25 Q So once the question was asked, you said

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1 that these are the only two individuals that was
2 terminated due to a CPI investigation. And both of
3 their cases were verified?
4 MS. GREEN: Objection again.
5 MR. ZINOBER: Overruled. Go ahead and
6 answer the question.
7 A Both of them, yes, they were verified.
8 Q Do you know of any others?
9 A That I had direct supervision of? No.
10 Q Because I've been there for three years
11 and it's happened to no one.
12 A Those are the only two that I have
13 firsthand knowledge of.
14 MR. LAWSON: Understood. Thank you.
15 MR. ZINOBER: I assume this witness is
16 not going to be excused?
17 MS. GREEN: No. And I have another
18 question.
19 MR. ZINOBER: I'm not going to just keep
20 this process going. If you want to get this on
21 rebuttal, you can. But this witness is done
22 for now. Thank you. Call your next witness.
23 MR. CANASI: Before you call any
24 witnesses, I want to be fair about this. I
25 want to poll this board because I don't think I

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1 need to hear anything else to make my decision,
2 and I'm very transparent. I don't want to
3 waste the county's time. I don't want to waste
4 the time of the people sitting out there in
5 that room waiting. I don't want to waste the
6 appellant's time, I don't want to waste the
7 authority's time or the recording secretary,
8 stenographer, for that matter.
9 MR. CARBAUGH: I think we need to hear
10 from Ms. Simmons, maybe none beyond that.
11 There's a couple of reasons why. I regret not
12 calling attention to it sooner when we were
13 watching the video. But if you watch her,
14 she's not looking at the altercation between LG
15 and Mr. Lawson. And, yet, in her statement,
16 she claims that she saw the slapping, and she's
17 not looking.
18 MS. BELL: And heard it. And I think her
19 testimony changed. I was trying to find it. I
20 think initially she said it was on the face,
21 and then in her audio recording, in that
22 transcript, she said that maybe it was on the
23 shoulder, she wasn't really sure, he's got long
24 nails. If it had been on the face, there would
25 have been a mark. Go ahead, Neal.

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1 MR. CARBAUGH: That would go in your
2 favor. But opposed to that is -- according to
3 her statement, Mr. Lawson came to her moments
4 after the incident and said, "Hey, I'm sorry
5 I reacted that way and hit her." Well, now the
6 story has changed and he didn't hit her.
7 Like you pointed out, the video is very
8 difficult. In my opinion, it looks like he hit
9 her, but I couldn't swear to that, so that's a
10 tough one. But if a witness claims that Mr.
11 Lawson admitted at the event that he did strike
12 the girl, then that doesn't matter whether
13 there's video or not, there's a witness that
14 said he admitted it.
15 MR. TRICHLER: If she's credible.
16 MR. CANASI: If she's credible.
17 MS. HOSLER: I have concerns as due
18 process, I feel we should hear the county's
19 case to its conclusion. I'm undecided,
20 frankly.
21 MS. BELL: I'm with Neal. I think that
22 this whole thing is so tragic and we're talking
23 about a child and we're talking about --
24 MR. CANASI: A man's job and livelihood.
25 MS. BELL: Absolutely. I agree with

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1 Neal.
2 MR. CANASI: I do too.
3 MS. BELL: I don't think we need to hear
4 from all of them because I've been through --
5 I've been through all the testimony, I agree
6 with Neal.
7 MR. TRICHLER: I'm in Chandra's position,
8 you know, for the appellant issues, I think the
9 county needs to have its full day and they
10 weren't prejudiced in any manner. But, my
11 gosh, there's some problems. You have five
12 people there, mandatory reporters that do
13 nothing, and nothing happens to them.
14 MS. HOSLER: So what is the issue, do you
15 think? Do you think it's a violation of a
16 NAPPI?
17 MS. BELL: No. I don't think it has
18 anything to do with that.
19 MS. HOSLER: An employee to terminate, so
20 I could be terminated for being -- I don't
21 know. Let's just say I stole a piece of gum or
22 something from my employer. I could be
23 terminated for something like that, right, even
24 though it's not a criminal violation or some
25 other administrative law violation, and that

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1 would be perfectly fine.
2 MS. BELL: I don't think she was accurate
3 when she answered that last question. The
4 NAPPI piece, yes, it's talked about in here as
5 far as, you know, are there procedures in
6 place. But I go back to, if he did not feel he
7 was being aggressed against, then he has no
8 need to do all of these things. He didn't have
9 a need to do that. They were obviously, in my
10 opinion, playing around. They probably
11 shouldn't have been playing around.
12 MS. HOSLER: That's where I struggled.
13 MS. BELL: But I don't think that NAPPI
14 has anything to do with it. I think she got
15 ahold -- got HR involved, particularly when Mr.
16 Duckworth's stuff had already wrapped up, he
17 told CPI, "Hey, I think the guy lost his cool
18 and did something he should not have done." He
19 doesn't say he slapped her in the face. He
20 didn't say any of that. So I don't think that
21 what she said was entirely accurate personally.
22 I think this is --
23 MR. CARBAUGH: We're kind of
24 deliberating.
25 MR. CANASI: Let's hear from Andrea.

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1 MS. CICHON: I'm in support of the full
2 process because I think everyone has got
3 a piece to share that's going to add different
4 perspective and value. I am hesitant to jump
5 to conclusions after hearing on a couple of
6 people speak, but we're a very passionate group
7 and we're latching on to a lot of policy issues
8 that were not followed, so I do have an issue
9 with that. But I agree, I don't want to
10 deliberate before we've heard everybody out, so
11 I would be in support of continuing, at least
12 at a minimum, Ms. Simmons to hear that
13 perspective.
14 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Chairman, I would
15 suggest that in light of the discussions that
16 we call a brief recess so that the county can
17 decide whether in light of what's been
18 discussed they would like to continue to
19 present the same case they started out wanting
20 to present or whether the case is going to
21 change at all.
22 MS. GREEN: Well, I don't think I need a
23 continuance for that.
24 MR. ZINOBER: I said recess.
25 MS. GREEN: Right. We still want to

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1 present the witnesses. I hear what you're
2 saying, and certainly I'll change the order
3 that I had planned. It's obvious you want to
4 hear from Cynthia Simmons next, so I would be
5 fine with that.
6 MR. CANASI: Yes. If it's okay with the
7 rest of the board, yes, I do agree, I think we
8 do need to hear from Ms. Simmons, but I would
9 like us to have a five-minute brief
10 conversation after we finish with Ms. Simmons
11 because all I'm seeing here now is that after
12 my visit to Lake Mag that I thought things were
13 better and things had changed, but it hasn't.
14 If anything comes out of this, you all need to
15 get some better cameras over there. I'll have
16 a talk with Mr. Harness about that. So do you
17 guys want to take a five-minute break or do you
18 want to call Ms. Simmons now?
19 MS. GREEN: Call her now, Ms. Simmons.
20 MR. CANASI: Ms. Simmons, you've been
21 sworn in.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
23 * * * * * * * * *
24 CYNTHIA VERONICA SIMMONS,

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4 BY MS. GREEN:
5 Q Could you please state your name and
6 spell it for the record?
7 A Cynthia Veronica Simmons. That's
8 C-y-n-t-h-i-a V-e-r-o-n-i-c-a S-i-m-m-o-n-s.
9 Q Do you work for Hillsborough County?
10 A Yes, ma'am.
11 Q What is your title?
12 A I'm a Senior Childcare Specialist 2.
13 Q Prior to coming to Hillsborough County,
14 did you have any experience working as a childcare
15 specialist or in that field?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Please describe that experience for the
18 board members.
19 A I have previous experience. I've been a
20 program manager. I've been a youth care advisor.
21 I've been at -- I started out at Tampa Bay Academy.
22 I worked myself up. Within six months, I became a
23 program manager.
24 Then from there, I was recruited to
25 Manatee Palms. From Manatee Palms, I worked in a

123
1 group home which we opened very successfully. And
2 then from there, they decided to close it. And I
3 went to the Children's Home, and I was the program
4 manager out there until now, I'm with Lake Mag, and
5 I'm senior childcare specialist.
6 Q Can you please tell the board members
7 generally about your job duties at Lake Magdalene?
8 A Basically you want to make sure that the
9 children are safe. I work three days a week, I work
10 12-hour shifts. I come in 6 p to 6 a.m. My job is
11 to make sure that the children's homework is done,
12 any activities that's on the schedule, they shower,
13 they're in bed, do 10-minute bed checks, wake them
14 up the next morning when school hours was different.
15 Q Who was your supervisor on March 3rd of
16 this year?
17 A Well, my immediate supervisor wasn't
18 there. But Mr. Lawson was there.
19 Q Oh. You mean actually on March 3rd on
20 the shift that you worked?
21 A Yes.
22 Q I'm sorry. I got confused. So you know
23 Mr. Lawson, obviously?
24 A Yes. When I first came to Lake Mag, he
25 was my RSC when I first joined the county.

124
1 Q Please describe for the board members
2 what was happening at Lake Magdalene on the evening
3 of Saturday, March 3rd, 2018.
4 A We had a young lady, she was turning
5 eighteen. And once you turn eighteen, you have to
6 be removed from the program because you can no
7 longer be there, so you have to go to a program like
8 an adult-care thing. So we was giving a celebration
9 of her birthday because she was turning eighteen the
10 next morning and she had to be out by a certain
11 time. So we was in the cafeteria, and everybody was
12 dancing, playing music. It was just a celebration,
13 she was leaving, she was going into adulthood.
14 Q Who was the highest-ranking member of the
15 staff on campus that night?
16 A Mr. Lawson.
17 Q Did you see him there at the birthday
18 party?
19 A Yes. He was in and out of the birthday
20 party checking to make sure of everything because it
21 got started a little late.
22 Q Please describe what you saw and heard
23 when Mr. Lawson first arrived at the birthday party.
24 A When he first came to the birthday party,
25 he didn't say anything. It was like a trash can --

125
1 he came in and observed everybody. He kind of like
2 leaned on the trash can maybe about five, seven
3 minutes, and then he proceeded to leave.
4 And then he came back a couple of more
5 times and just said, "Hey, is everything okay?" And
6 everything was quiet, and he came back and he stayed
7 a longer time the last time he entered.
8 Q What happened that time?
9 A We had a young lady. The kids was
10 dancing, and some of the kids called him Dad. They
11 went over and they was hugging, it was like a little
12 reunion, they was talking. And one child proceeded
13 to go over and smack him, and then he smacked her
14 back and he held her arms down, and then he walked
15 out, and some of the kids went out after him.
16 So that's when I decided maybe it would
17 be best that we go ahead and shut it down and get
18 the kids back to the necessary shelters. So all the
19 boys left, and then I was like, you know, we can
20 give cake from Shelter 2 because that's the shelter
21 I was working in that night where the young girl
22 was, the one that had the birthday party.
23 Q What was your reaction to seeing Mr.
24 Lawson slap the child?
25 A I really couldn't believe it, I was just

126
1 like, (indicating), you know. I didn't know what to
2 say and stuff. He kind of like came out of his
3 composure and stuff, you know, it was quick.
4 Q Have you ever seen a staff member hit a
5 child in care before?
6 A No. I hadn't seen it.
7 Q In all of your years in group homes,
8 never?
9 A Yes, I've seen that, but not -- I'm just
10 saying not at Lake Mag.
11 Q Not at Lake Mag?
12 A No.
13 Q How long had you been at Lake Mag when it
14 happened?
15 A Let's see, it will be two years October
16 31st of this year, so I probably was there -- it
17 happened in March. So, what? A year and four
18 months.
19 Q Why didn't you hop off your stool and go
20 right over to him when it happened?
21 A I was in shock. I didn't know what to
22 do. Then he proceeded after -- I mean, he walked
23 out immediately. So my thing is, if I walk out, I'm
24 responsible for five other kids, six other kids,
25 plus the other kids that was in there that didn't

127
1 have any staff, so I have to stay in ratio.
2 Q Did you report your concerns about Mr.
3 Lawson's behavior to any supervisory employee or
4 agency?
5 A No, not that night because who was I
6 going to report it to? Mr. Lawson? He was the only
7 senior-ranking person that night. So my main goal
8 was to get everything under control and find out
9 Monday who I needed to talk to and stuff.
10 And I do understand that I'm a mandated
11 reporter. But, you know, my thing was trying to get
12 the kids, because some of the kids was very upset
13 about the situation, and get control and find out
14 the bottom of it. And, you know, I had never seen
15 nothing like that, really, I was in shock.
16 Q Did Mr. Lawson approach or contact you
17 that night that it happened and discuss what had
18 happened?
19 A He did apologize and stuff, and he was
20 just like, you know, he was -- he just said, I don't
21 want to lie. He said he was sorry that -- you know,
22 but his reaction and it was just like if you see
23 somebody on the street and they hit you, your
24 natural reaction is, you know, to hit them back.
25 But he approached me like twice. I was in the

128
1 kitchen trying to clean up washing like the bowls
2 and stuff.
3 Q Can you back up and tell the board
4 members, did you just say that he approached you
5 twice?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Can you please break it down for the
8 board members and tell them, what did Mr. Lawson say
9 to you the first time he approached, and then what
10 did he say to you the second time?
11 A Well, he just came and said he was sorry.
12 He said he was sorry, and then he left and then he
13 came back probably about five minutes later, and he
14 was saying, you know, it was just like somebody on
15 the street just hit you unexpectedly, you know, your
16 natural reaction is going to be to hit back and
17 everything, and so that's all.
18 Q Did he say anything else to you?
19 A He just said, you know, his natural
20 reaction was, you know, to hit, that he was sorry
21 and stuff. He just kept saying he was sorry.
22 Q Was it clear to you why he was saying he
23 was sorry?
24 A No.
25 Q Did he ask your opinion about what he

129
1 should have done?
2 A No, ma'am.
3 Q Do you recall being interviewed by Dan
4 Duckworth regarding the incident?
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 MS. GREEN: And I'm turning to Exhibit 11
7 for everybody's benefit.
8 MS. BELL: I'm sorry. Could you repeat
9 your last question?
10 MS. GREEN: I don't remember it.
11 (Reporter read as requested.)
12 MS. BELL: The one before that.
13 MS. GREEN: The one before that, I asked
14 if -- I think I asked if he asked what -- if he
15 asked you what you thought he should have done.
16 MR. ZINOBER: Excuse me. Ms. Green, are
17 you impeaching your own witness?
18 MS. GREEN: Well, I'm attempting to
19 refresh recollection.
20 MR. ZINOBER: But you're not doing it
21 correctly because what she told another person
22 is not proper refreshment of recollection.
23 It's not something that she wrote down. It's a
24 hearsay statement made to a third party. You
25 can't use that to refresh recollection.

130
1 MS. BELL: Ms. Court Reporter, if I may.
2 So to that question if he asked what you would
3 have done, he said no, he did not?
4 (Reporter read as requested.)
5 MS. BELL: That's exactly what I needed.
6 Thank you.
7 BY MS. GREEN:
8 Q Did Mr. Lawson ask what you would have
9 done if the child had slapped you?
10 A If he did, I probably said I don't know,
11 because I know, being a certified NAPPI trainer, I
12 would not have hit a child. They teach you
13 techniques, whether it's blocking or to step back so
14 that the child does not make contact.
15 MR. ZINOBER: I'm going to strike that
16 testimony because the answer was, if he did.
17 You asked the question did he, and the answer
18 was if he did. That's not an affirmation that
19 he said anything.
20 MS. GREEN: Sure.
21 MR. ZINOBER: So I'm striking that
22 testimony.
23 MS. GREEN: Okay. Is it all right for
24 her to talk about NAPPI?
25 MR. ZINOBER: In the abstract?

131
1 MS. GREEN: No, as it relates to the
2 incident of March 3rd.
3 MR. ZINOBER: Well, if you want to ask
4 her what would NAPPI dictate in terms of the
5 way that you would respond to this kind of
6 behavior, you can ask that question.
7 BY MS. GREEN:
8 Q Can you answer that question?
9 A Yes, ma'am. First of all, NAPPI teaches
10 you the first thing, you never horseplay with any
11 children, no matter what, how familiar you are with
12 them. They also teach you that this is your 4 by 4
13 space. So you always want to protect this whether
14 or not it's with an X shield or whatever.
15 So if somebody comes up to me, I'm always
16 going to be ready, and I'm going to be able to block
17 any hits that they hit me. So NAPPI teaches you
18 techniques so you can defend yourself without making
19 contact with a child. And that's for the safety of
20 you and for the child.
21 Q If a child is engaged in horseplay with
22 you, why would you have to defend yourself?
23 A Well, you just broke a bond or you just
24 broke the policy because you're taught never to
25 horseplay with the child because then the child

132
1 becomes too familiar and then they catch you off
2 guard and they want to horseplay.
3 I didn't know the child was horseplaying
4 until the next morning, I was informed. But, you
5 know, here it is, this child is horseplaying and,
6 you know, it catches you off guard, so you hit her
7 back, and now you have a situation that could have
8 been avoided by not horseplaying with the child.
9 Q What if a staff member is not engaged in
10 horseplay but the child is? Is there anything
11 that's covered in NAPPI about that situation?
12 A Yes. I mean, you still want to block,
13 you still want to protect yourself, you still want
14 to protect others and you want to like supervise the
15 child. And, you know, if you feel offended, then
16 have somebody else talk to the child, process with
17 the child and let them know, "Hey, we don't do this,
18 there's no horseplaying" and stuff.
19 We have house rules in every shelter that
20 the kids are given when they first get there, and we
21 have meetings that we inform them, this is the do's
22 and don'ts.
23 Q What's so wrong about horseplay that you
24 have to shut it down?
25 A Well, horseplay, you know, ends up to

133
1 being like a physical altercation. It gets more and
2 more. You just can't stop it because, you know, if
3 I hit you and I hit you wrong, then, you know, I'm
4 going to come back at you and then we're going to
5 get into a physical altercation, whereas we don't
6 horseplay and you don't take me for granted because
7 when I need you to be respectful, you're not.
8 You're going to think, "Oh, I can do this because I
9 can do this," no, it's not good.
10 Q How sure are you that Mr. Lawson made
11 contact with the child, struck the child?
12 A Put my life on it.
13 Q How do you know?
14 A I seen it. I was right there,
15 unfortunately. I've closed my eyes a million and
16 one times trying to see if I didn't see it, and it
17 comes up the same way every time. So it's not like
18 I just woke up this morning and said, "Oh, I'm
19 coming in here and testify and say I seen it." I
20 mean, I actually seen, unfortunately I seen it.
21 MS. GREEN: One moment, please. Nothing
22 further.
23 MR. ZINOBER: Your witness, Mr. Lawson.
25 BY MR. LAWSON:

134
1 Q Ms. Simmons, how long have you been
2 working in the child welfare field?
3 A It's probably been a good 20 years now.
4 Q Are you aware of the procedures for
5 reporting abuse?
6 A Yes. I am also aware of the procedures
7 for reporting abuse. But you was the supervisor
8 that night, so who was I going to report it to?
9 You?
10 Q 1-800-96 abuse?
11 A I know 1-800-96 abuse.
12 Q You just asked me a question, so I just
13 wanted to let you know.
14 A No, I'm just saying. But the way I found
15 out about it is, you text the young lady, and the
16 young lady called me up informing of a situation
17 after they put you on administrative leave. But my
18 plan was to talk to Ms. Rhonda face to face and
19 everything. And I had just came off a three-day,
20 12-hour shift, so I wouldn't have been able to talk
21 to Ms. Rhonda until Monday.
22 Q So you have to get permission to call
23 abuse?
24 A No, I don't have to get permission to
25 call abuse.

135
1 Q Okay. So what reason did you not call
2 that evening?
3 A Because basically I was in shock, and I
4 cannot leave my kids unattended to. So was I going
5 to call you to the Shelter 2 to watch the kids while
6 I go call the abuse line?
7 Q You mentioned that Michelle was in
8 Shelter 2 with you?
9 A I didn't mention that.
10 Q It was in your --
11 A I did not just mention that.
12 Q I didn't say just mentioned that. I'm
13 talking about your interview now.
14 A You said I just mentioned it.
15 MR. ZINOBER: Excuse me. Just wait until
16 you're asked a question and then respond
17 politely. Don't argue with the appellant.
19 BY MR. LAWSON:
20 Q While you were in Cottage 2 because you
21 all went back to, you said, cut the cake in Cottage
22 2, Ms. Michelle was present with you. Correct?
23 A Michelle was there for maybe two minutes.
24 She got some cake and she left. She just helped me
25 carry all the stuff back to the shelter.

136
1 Q Okay. One moment, because at some point
2 -- I have to find it in your statement -- you say
3 when Ms. Yvette came over with the kids, Ms.
4 Michelle was right there with you, but I'll get back
5 to that later. Can you explain your positioning in
6 the cafeteria, please?
7 A Yes. When you first came in, there was
8 trash can, and then there's like a bar. I was
9 sitting on the other side of the bar. You were
10 laying on the trash can. The kids was right in
11 front of me dancing. The young lady walked through
12 the crowd. And when she got to you --
13 Q I'm just asking for your positioning.
14 A Okay. Sorry.
15 Q Do you know the positioning of the other
16 staff that was present?
17 A Well, one lady is not here. Can I use
18 her name?
19 Q They're staff. You can use the staff
20 names.
21 A Okay. So Keyonna Tate was in the middle.
22 Q Middle of me and you or you and I? I'm
23 sorry.
24 A No. She was in the middle of the kids.
25 She was over by you, but she left. When the

137
1 incident took place, she was in the middle of like
2 the dance floor.
3 Q And Ms. Michelle Veale?
4 A Ms. Michelle Veale, she was like on the
5 other side, I think closest to you.
6 Q Okay. On Page 14 of Ms. Simmons'
7 statement, she states that, "I could put my hand on
8 the Bible, that she," which is Ms. Tate, "was the
9 closest one to there," but she was saying that she
10 wasn't. She mentioned that Ms. Tate was at the end
11 of the bar and she was at one end of the bar?
12 A No. I didn't say that. I'm saying Ms.
13 Tate was in the middle, she was the closest to the
14 child. I was at the other end of the bar. I didn't
15 say Ms. Tate.
16 Q I was speaking of the interview. In the
17 interview, you said you was at one end of the bar,
18 Ms. Tate was at the other end of the bar and I was
19 by the trash cans?
20 A Yes. She was right in the middle. Okay.
21 You were right here. I was, say, right here. She
22 was right in the middle, right here closest to you,
23 which would have been the other end of the bar.
24 Q Understood. You said you would put your
25 hand on the Bible. Do you stand by that?

138
1 A Stand by it.
2 Q Ms. Tate is the individual that walked
3 into the camera that came up and asked me the
4 question. So she wasn't where she said she was.
5 That's the individual --
6 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Lawson, you have to ask
7 questions, not make argument.
8 MR. LAWSON: I'm sorry. I was pointing
9 things out.
10 Q You mentioned that the kids witnessed the
11 slap, correct, and was discussing it in the middle
12 of you?
13 A I don't know if you remember. But you
14 told me to watch out for Baby Girl because she was
15 upset and she wanted to fight the young lady. And
16 that's not in the interview. I don't know if you
17 recall that.
18 Q It's in the interview.
19 A Okay.
20 Q Although I didn't say it, but I got that.
21 But you did say that the kids witnessed the slap.
22 Correct?
23 A Um-hum.
24 Q Which kids were those? All of them?
25 A I'm not going to say all of them. I'm

139
1 saying certain ones mentioned it.
2 Q So you didn't witness them witness the
3 fight, you just heard them mention it?
4 A No. I witnessed the slap.
5 Q You witnessed them witness the slap?
6 That's what I'm asking you. You said the kids
7 witnessed the slap. So I'm saying --
8 A The kids came up and they said, "Oh, my
9 God, Ms. Cynthia, did you see that," and everything.
10 And then Baby Girl, as you call her, she was right
11 there under your arms when the girl hit you and you
12 hit her back. And you said, "Take care of Baby
13 Girl. Keep her in the shelter because she wants to
14 fight."
15 Q I didn't. But okay. You mentioned that
16 while you were over there, you was playing music or
17 Ms. Tate was playing music on her phone and you had
18 the speaker in your hand. Correct?
19 A Um-hum.
20 Q So therefore the music is louder to you
21 than it is to the other kids. But you say you heard
22 the slap over the music?
23 A The speaker wasn't that loud. It was
24 supposed to be a Bose speaker, but we couldn't get
25 it to go to the maximum, so it was barely -- it

140
1 might have been at a 19 or 20, but you could hear
2 the slap.
3 Q So you heard the slap, so it had to be a
4 hard slap to hear it over the music. What was your
5 reason that you said shortly after the incident you
6 all ended the party? Do you know approximately what
7 time it was?
8 A It was very quickly after the incident
9 because, as you're aware, you came into the kitchen
10 twice, and we started cleaning.
11 Q I'm not aware.
12 A Oh. You're not aware. Okay.
13 Q But continue with the question I asked.
14 A I am. I'm getting to it.
15 Q Okay.
16 A So we decided right away to go ahead and
17 end the party because the kids started going outside
18 and stuff. So I was like, "Let's just clean up, get
19 the kids back to their shelter." They took the boys
20 out. We had the girls from two shelters in there.
21 I took the girls back to Shelter 2, and they took
22 the other girls back to Shelter F.
23 And then you proceeded to come in the
24 kitchen. You said, "Oh, I'm sorry," you know, "I
25 lost my composure" and everything, "I would not" --

141
1 "what would you do if somebody was to hit you in the
2 street?"
3 Q Okay. You said that you took the girls
4 back to Cottage 2, and then I proceeded to come into
5 the kitchen?
6 A No. I said you came into kitchen before
7 I took the girls back to -- well, you came into the
8 kitchen before I took the girls back to Shelter 2
9 because we was in there cleaning up, so you asked me
10 why was we cleaning up. So I'm trying to give you
11 everything you're asking for.
12 Q Okay. So approximately what time was
13 that that the party was ended?
14 A I don't know approximately what time.
15 The party started late. And then start shortly, I
16 guess, about 8:30, 9, I don't want to put a time on
17 it, the incident happened, and we started cleaning
18 up and getting the kids out of there.
19 Q Can you tell my positioning? How was I
20 standing when I was over by the receptacle or by the
21 podium?
22 A The trash can?
23 Q Trash can, podium, yes.
24 A You was kind of like leaning like this.
25 And then when the kids came up, you kind of like

142
1 raised up a little bit and very relaxed, and you had
2 your arm around the young lady you call Baby Girl.
3 Q Can you demonstrate the slap? How did it
4 happen? How did I swing?
5 A Do you want to come out here?
6 Q Yes, I can.
7 MR. ZINOBER: Just describe it, Ms.
8 Simmons.
9 A Well, the girl came up and she tapped
10 him, and then he went up and he hit her. And then
11 he held her hands down immediately and like held
12 them down, I don't know, like 60 seconds or so, I
13 wasn't counting, and then he walked out.
14 Q Okay. And where did I make contact with
15 the young lady when I slapped her?
16 A She was on -- you was on -- she was on
17 the right side when you made contact with her
18 because she -- in the cafeteria because that was the
19 closet side. Left side, she was on the left side,
20 and that's where you tagged her, the left side.
21 Q Like where? Face? Arm? Head? Like
22 where? Where did I make contact with her?
23 A If I have it, she tagged you in your
24 face, and then you tagged her back, and the next
25 morning, you told me that you guys was horseplaying.

143
1 Q But I'm asking where did I make contact
2 with the young lady?
3 A I just said it.
4 Q No, you didn't.
5 MS. BELL: No, you didn't.
6 A I said the face.
7 Q You didn't. You said she tagged me in
8 the face.
9 A I said she tagged you in the face. I
10 said, if my recollection reminds me correctly,
11 you came back.
12 Q You mentioned that I came in the back on
13 multiple occasions and I apologized to you.
14 Correct?
15 A Twice.
16 Q There are cameras in the kitchen area.
17 Correct?
18 A I would assume so.
19 Q I'm advising there are cameras in the
20 kitchen area. So if it was mentioned that I came in
21 the kitchen and apologized to you, that would have
22 been on camera?
23 A Well, it should be on camera because you
24 came back there twice, and I have no reason to lie
25 about it. You were back there twice.

144
1 Q So you saw me slap the kid. You saw me
2 put her arms down, and shortly thereafter, I walked
3 out. Correct?
4 A You held her arms like this down.
5 Q Okay. And then I walked out after that?
6 A You walked out, and then you came back
7 into --
8 Q -- the kitchen?
9 A You came back through the cafeteria, back
10 through the kitchen, because I was back there
11 washing a bowl and I was putting it up. And then
12 the second time you came back there and stuff. And
13 I even made a comment to Ms. Michelle, "Why does he
14 keep apologizing to me?" And that's what I said.
15 Q Ms. Michelle was in the kitchen also?
16 A Ms. Michelle was in the kitchen. Ms.
17 Tate was out there with the kids and stuff. So we
18 had washed up the bowls and stuff we used real quick
19 and get rid of the table clothes and stuff, and we
20 were sweeping the floor.
21 MR. LAWSON: No further questions.
22 MS. HOSLER: I have a few questions for
23 you.
24 EXAMINATION
25 BY MS. HOSLER:

145
1 Q You mentioned something about a text
2 message involving a young lady?
3 A Yes, ma'am.
4 Q Can you elaborate on that?
5 A Mr. Lawson had sent the other staff that
6 was in the cafeteria --
7 Q Who?
8 A Keyonna Tate --
9 Q Uh-huh.
10 A -- a text message. And so she contacted
11 me and said, "Guilty by association," and then I was
12 like, "What are you talking about?" And she was
13 like, "They just put Tre on administrative leave,"
14 and I was like, "Whatever." So I was like, "I don't
15 want to get into it."
16 She then she called him, and then he told
17 her he was on administrative leave and stuff like
18 this and that they was going to be calling us to
19 talk to us about the situation.
20 Q That was the following morning?
21 A That was that next day, I guess Monday,
22 when they put him on administrative leave. Then she
23 got the text from him, then she forwarded the text
24 to me.
25 Q "Guilty by association," what did you

146
1 take that to mean?
2 A I don't know what it meant, because I was
3 like, "I'm not guilty, I didn't hit anybody."
4 Q Speaking of the hitting, you said you
5 witnessed the entire slap, the entire incident. Do
6 you remember if the child struck Mr. Lawson just
7 once, just once on the face?
8 A It was like a bounce tag. You know how
9 you go like that? It was like that (indicating).
10 Q So it was one time, but it just kind of
11 bounced?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And then he struck her back?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And then you said he held her hand down?
16 A He held both of her arms down so she
17 wouldn't come up to hit him again.
18 Q Then what did she do?
19 A She was like, "Oh, well, you told me" --
20 something about, "Don't ever get caught off guard."
21 And she was like, you know, "You got caught off
22 guard."
23 Q And then he immediately left the room?
24 A Yes, ma'am.
25 Q Immediately?

147
1 A Immediately.
2 Q Did he have anything in his hand at the
3 time?
4 A I didn't see anything.
5 Q I didn't see anything?
6 A Unh-hunh, he didn't have nothing.
7 Q You said you were shocked by the
8 incident?
9 A Um-hum.
10 Q Did you run up to -- you saw a little
11 girl get struck, and I can understand how that would
12 be shocking to an adult. Did you go up to her and
13 see if she was okay?
14 A After, because she kept coming in, I was
15 like, "You need to come in."
16 And she was like, "I don't have to do
17 what you say."
18 And I was like, "We just need to be sure
19 you're okay because we're going to close out."
20 So then I directed Ms. Tate, which was
21 her staff, I said, "Look, you have a better rapport
22 with her, so maybe you need to find out, you know,
23 she was okay, whatever," so Ms. Tate started talking
24 to her.
25 Q Was that immediately after she was

148
1 struck?
2 A Um-hum.
3 Q So you guys ran over to her?
4 A No, no. I'm not saying we ran over to
5 her. I'm saying when Mr. Tre left, some of the kids
6 went outside with him, and she was one of them. So
7 we was getting the kids back in the cafeteria.
8 That's when we decided to go ahead and shut it down.
9 So then she wouldn't come inside for me,
10 so I had Ms. Tate speak to her and tell her -- you
11 know, ask her was she okay and that she needed to
12 come in.
13 Q What did she say? She said she didn't
14 want to talk about it?
15 A No. She talked to Ms. Tate. She was
16 like, "Oh, well, he said, don't get caught off
17 guard," you know. And that's when Ms. Tate says,
18 "Well, they was horseplaying." I said, "You can't
19 horseplay with a child."
20 EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. TRICHLER:
22 Q What dose it mean in your mind to be a
23 mandatory reporter?
24 A A mandatory reporter is someone when you
25 see abuse stuff, you need to call 1-800-96-abuse.

149
1 Q Are you a mandatory reporter?
2 A We are all mandatory reporters, yes, sir.
3 Q You were on the night of the incident as
4 well. Right?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Why didn't you call?
7 A Well, I didn't have anybody to cover my
8 shelter, so I couldn't call then. So I was going to
9 run it by Ms. Rhonda on Monday and talk to her about
10 the situation.
11 Q Does the law allow for any time frames to
12 report instances of abuse where you personally
13 witnessed it?
14 A Yes. I think you have 24 hours as long
15 as you report it.
16 Q Was there any time, instead of washing
17 bowls in the kitchen, you might could have called
18 the abuse hotline?
19 A Probably. But who was going to watch the
20 kids that I was responsible for?
21 Q Were any of the kids in the kitchen when
22 you were washing the bowls?
23 A No. I used the staff and everything.
24 That's why I was hurrying up. I used the staff to
25 watch the kids, and then after they kept going in

150
1 and out, we got the kids out of there.
2 Q The staff couldn't watch the kids while
3 you called in abuse where you said you couldn't
4 believe it happened?
5 A We have -- in my shelter, I was
6 responsible for so many girls. It's a 6 to 1 ratio.
7 So if I leave somebody with -- I can't leave one
8 person with 12 kids. I can't leave one person with
9 seven kids. So in order to make sure that the
10 ratios are intact and somebody could come to my
11 shelter, then I would have had to get permission
12 from Mr. Lawson to move around people.
13 EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. CANASI:
15 Q You don't carry cell phones with you?
16 A We don't use our cell phones, sir.
17 Q So you would not use your cell phone to
18 report abuse?
19 A Why would I use my cell phone when that
20 happened on company's time? And we're not supposed
21 to be on our cell phones.
22 Q That makes absolutely no sense to me. I
23 mean, if there's an abuse situation, I don't care
24 what company policy is. You've got a cell phone on
25 you and that's the only way you can report an abuse

151
1 because you've got six kids you've got to watch,
2 that cell phone should have been used, shouldn't it?
3 Let me ask a question. There was a
4 comment you made that -- or a comment that I heard
5 about that there was music playing and that you
6 could hear the slap over the music.
7 A The music wasn't very loud. It was -- I
8 have this little personal Bose speaker, but it
9 wasn't working because it wasn't charged, so you
10 could barely hear the music, so then they started
11 playing the music on the cell phone, and it only
12 went so loud. So the music never did -- so we
13 stopped using it for a speaker because we couldn't
14 get the thing to work because I had charged it a
15 couple of days before the party.
16 Q So was the slap like that (indicating)?
17 A Yes, you could hear it.
18 Q (Indicating.) About that loud?
19 A Um-hum.
20 Q About like that (indicating).
21 A Like that (indicating).
22 Q But there was no report of any marks on
23 the child's face? And if the slap was that hard,
24 (indicating) -- that left a mark on my hand by doing
25 that.

152
1 A The child is very dark. So even if she
2 would have had a mark, you wouldn't have been able
3 to see it because she's about the color of your name
4 tag minus the white writing.
5 EXAMINATION
6 BY MS. BELL:
7 Q What about the fingernails that you
8 mentioned?
9 A Fingernails?
10 Q In your transcript, you mention that
11 because Mr. Lawson has long nails, he would have
12 likely left scratch marks.
13 A If you're hitting somebody, I mean -- the
14 nurse checked her out.
15 MR. CANASI: Can we roll that video? I'd
16 like to see it. Let's get that video rolling.
17 MS. GREEN: Do want the screen in? Do
18 you want me to move the screen?
19 MR. CANASI: Let's move the screen. I'm
20 going to step over there again.
21 (Playing video.)
22 EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. CANASI:
24 Q Where are you at?
25 A I'm right here. That's Ms. Michelle.

153
1 That's another staff.
2 Q Who's another staff?
3 A That's Tre, that's Baby Girl, that's Ms.
4 -- that's --
5 MS. BELL: LG?
6 MR. CANASI: Let's roll it back again.
7 (Playing video.)
8 Q This is you? Watch it.
9 A Yes.
10 Q That's LG. Okay.
11 A Um-hum.
12 Q You were looking here?
13 A I was looking right at him.
14 Q At that point. Okay.
15 MR. CANASI: Roll it again.
16 (Playing video.)
17 THE WITNESS: This is staff that sent me
18 the text.
19 Q You're looking here. Now you're looking
20 there. You just turned away. Now you're turning.
21 A See, I looked.
22 Q You looked, but not while she was
23 slapping him.
24 A Yes. I seen him slap her, I seen it.
25 Q You seen her slap him?

154
1 A Um-hum.
2 EXAMINATION
3 BY MS. CICHON:
4 Q Why didn't you get up? If this was so
5 egregious and the slap was that loud, why did you
6 not get up from your stool as a member of
7 leadership?
8 A Because I'm watching these kids here.
9 And Keyonna went over there to him, and then she
10 come over here and asked me.
11 EXAMINATION
12 BY MS. BELL:
13 Q But why did you not get up?
14 A Because my job was -- I had from this
15 area back to the bathrooms.
16 Q Aren't you a mandated reporter, though?
17 You said you're a mandated reporter?
18 A Yes, ma'am, I am.
19 EXAMINATION
20 BY MS. CICHON:
21 Q Are you considered a member of
22 leadership?
23 A No.
24 Q So this is your boss? Mr. Lawson is
25 considered your supervisor?

155
1 A Yes, ma'am.
2 EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. CANASI:
4 Q So where is the music playing at?
5 A That's what I'm saying. That was the
6 Bose speaker down there. It wasn't playing. Ms.
7 Keyonna was playing the music on her cell phone.
8 That's what I'm saying.
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. CARBAUGH:
11 Q Ms. Simmons, there's a couple of other
12 kind of discrepancies, positioning of Ms. Tate and
13 Ms. Veale, maybe not exactly. Plus, you mentioned
14 that Mr. Lawson grabbed LG, both of her arms, and it
15 doesn't look like he grabbed both of her arms, it
16 only looked like one.
17 And to be honest with you, watching your
18 face throughout that whole video, it doesn't look
19 like you turned and looked at the incident until it
20 was basically over. The slapping had already taken
21 place.
22 A I seen the young lady when she came
23 through here, and she --
24 EXAMINATION
25 BY MS. BELL:

156
1 Q And I'm going to add to that that you
2 also said that Mr. Lawson walked out immediately.
3 He did not walk out immediately. You said that you
4 guys shut down the party. The incident happened
5 8:30ish. The party was not over, according to your
6 transcript, until between 10 and 10:30, so that is
7 not accurate, I don't believe. You also said that
8 you were going to get things under control.
9 A Right. That means get the kids back in.
10 Q You were still sitting there on your
11 stool?
12 A I got off the stool.
13 MS. BELL: Okay.
14 EXAMINATION
15 BY MS. HOSLER:
16 Q How soon after did you get off your
17 stool, ma'am?
18 A I'm not really sure. I'm not good with
19 the time.
20 EXAMINATION
21 BY MS. BELL:
22 Q While we watch this -- I've got another
23 question. At the very beginning of your testimony,
24 you said you had witnessed adults hit children
25 previously, altmhough not at Lake Mag. Is that

157
1 correct?
2 A Um-hum.
3 Q What actions did you take in those
4 situations?
5 A Well, one of them, I was in the hospital
6 for like six months, I got kicked unconscious and I
7 didn't want to press charges.
8 Q So you were the abused in those
9 situations?
10 A Um-hum.
11 Q Have you witnessed an adult hit a child
12 in --
13 A I've seen an adult hit a child. And then
14 when I reported it, I was called a liar, they
15 changed my statement and everything. So, really,
16 when you report stuff, it doesn't always mean that
17 they're going to do what they need to do, so I have
18 witnessed stuff.
19 And then I got a call from Tallahassee
20 saying that I was going to be arrested because I
21 changed my statement, and I had to tell them I did
22 not change my statement and stuff. I said what I
23 seen.
24 Q Do you sign your statements?
25 A Yes, I did.

158
1 Q So how are you able to change your
2 statement? If you give a statement and you sign to
3 that statement --
4 A Because they told me to e-mail it to
5 them, when I e-mailed it to them, it went to
6 Tallahassee. When it went to Tallahassee, the
7 statement was altered, but it still had my
8 signatures.
9 Q That's a pretty big allegation. How have
10 you handled that situation?
11 A Who? I mean, I told -- I told Mr.
12 Duckworth about the situation. I told people about
13 the situation. But the situation, the people no
14 longer work for the company, so -- but --
15 Q One other point of clarification. You
16 said previously when I was asking for the question
17 to be repeated that Mr. Lawson did not at any time
18 ask you, "What would you have done?"
19 Yet in your transcripts, I found at least
20 twice where you say he asked what you would have
21 done, and you have your response listed here.
22 That's on Page 88 as well as Page 117.
23 A Can I look at this?
24 Q I'm sorry?
25 A Can I look at this?

159
1 MS. GREEN: She's saying, "Can I look at
2 this?"
3 Q Sure. It's Page 88 and 117 on our --
4 MS. GREEN: It will be different for her.
5 Do you know what exhibit it is?
6 MS. BELL: Exhibit 11.
7 MR. TRICHLER: Page 8 on her transcript.
8 MS. GREEN: Tab 11, Page 8.
9 MR. TRICHLER: I'm sorry. Let me find
10 where she was talking. I believe Page 9, Page
11 9.
12 THE WITNESS: Page 9 in Exhibit 11?
13 MS. BELL: Yes.
14 MR. TRICHLER: 22 through 23.
15 MS. BELL: The second instance is on your
16 Page No. 38, Line 18, so it's just a
17 discrepancy there.
18 BY MS. BELL:
19 Q Ms. Simmons, do you ever horseplay?
20 A No, I don't horseplay.
21 Q Do you know of other staff who horseplay?
22 A Yes, I know of other staff that
23 horseplay.
24 Q It's interesting because you mentioned in
25 here that Mr. Lawson came to you in the kitchen, he

160
1 apologized, et cetera, and then the next day when
2 you all were talking about LG's points, Ms. Tate
3 says, "Oh, no, no, they were just playing."
4 And then later Mr. Lawson says, "Oh, no,
5 no, no, don't do those points. We were just
6 playing," which sounds like to me, it's totally fine
7 that they were playing because you were like, "Oh,
8 well, you didn't tell me that you were playing. Why
9 didn't you tell me you were playing?"
10 Well, if the playing was wrong, then why
11 would that not have been like, you know, "You
12 weren't supposed to be playing"? But that wasn't
13 your response. Your response was, "Oh, you never
14 told me you were playing."
15 A I didn't work in Shelter F when they did
16 the points. So the next morning when the staff came
17 in and they got briefed and stuff and they called
18 me about the incident, and I said, "No, she should
19 have three days of restriction."
20 So I told them to change her points and
21 stuff because Ms. Tate and them didn't change her
22 points. So when Mr. Tre came over, the next morning
23 he came on shift before I was leaving. And I
24 explained to him, "Hey, I had her points changed and
25 everything because no kid should be hitting a

161
1 supervisor or anybody," because I don't want them to
2 think that's okay and stuff.
3 So he says, "Oh, no, we was horseplaying.
4 And I said, "Well, it's up to you. You can change
5 the points back if you want to. I'm not changing
6 them."
7 Q Going back to the reporting again
8 briefly, you said in your transcript, "I want to
9 report this, but I didn't know who to go to." But
10 based on your testimony that you've reported before
11 and based on your testimony that you are a mandated
12 reporter and based on the Exhibit 17, I think 17, 18
13 and 19, which are your policies --
14 A No.
15 Q -- that's not exactly true, is it?
16 A When I reported before, it was not to
17 1-800-96-Abuse. I got a call from a manager and it
18 was about a young lady in a situation and it had got
19 called in and I was one of the witnesses. And they
20 told me that I was lying, I did not see what I seen
21 and stuff, and I did see what I was seeing. So I
22 didn't have to call 1-800-96 --
23 Q I'm not asking if you had to call the
24 hotline. You said in your transcript, "I didn't
25 know who to go to"?

162
1 A Right, because I don't know who to trust
2 there because, like I said, I've had a situation
3 before, so that's why I wanted to talk Ms. Rhonda.
4 Q That's interesting. So I think somewhere
5 in here, Mr. Lawson gave out meds that night, is
6 that correct, or the next day?
7 A Gave out meds?
8 Q Never mind. That's fine. Did you feel
9 comfortable with Mr. Lawson taking children to the
10 Strawberry Festival the next day?
11 A I don't know anything about going to the
12 Strawberry Festival the next day. I didn't work.
13 When I got off that morning, I was done, my shift
14 was done.
15 Q You said that --
16 A I didn't go to the Strawberry Festival.
17 Q I didn't say did you go. Were you
18 comfortable? You say in your testimony that Mr.
19 Lawson went to the Strawberry Festival.
20 MS. BELL: Did you go to the Strawberry
21 Festival, Mr. Lawson, with the kids?
22 MR. LAWSON: Yes, ma'am.
23 Q You were aware of that, according to your
24 transcript. Were you comfortable with Mr. Lawson
25 going with the children to the Strawberry Festival?

163
1 A No.
2 Q What did you do?
3 A I didn't do anything, I wasn't there. I
4 got off at 6:00 that morning. I can't override a
5 supervisor.
6 Q So you witnessed --
7 A I didn't witness them leave.
8 Q You witnessed abuse on Saturday night.
9 You did not report it through any of the channels
10 that you have been briefed on, any of the policies
11 that your agency abides by. He went -- and you knew
12 that he was going with the children to the
13 Strawberry Festival, and you had witnessed this
14 horrible abuse, and you said nothing. It wasn't
15 until Monday when you talked to Ms. Rhonda. What
16 punishment, if any, did you receive for not
17 following your agency's policies?
18 A We got a coaching, and she talked to us
19 about the policy about remembering that we're
20 mandated reporters. She spoke to us about it.
21 Q So you were spoken to about it?
22 A Um-hum.
23 Q Is there anything on your permanent
24 record?
25 A I'm not sure.

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1 MS. CICHON: I have a question.
2 EXAMINATION
3 BY MS. CICHON:
4 Q I'm looking from your perspective since
5 you've got a long time working with children. If
6 you had to rank this incident on a scale of 1 to 10,
7 so 10 being the most severe thing you've ever seen
8 in career and 1 being maybe a misunderstanding or
9 horseplay or the wrong perspective, what level of
10 severity would you rank the allegations?
11 A Probably a 10.
12 Q Following along the same lines, so at the
13 birthday party, let's say there was a medical
14 emergency, so a child has an asthma attack or
15 cardiac arrest, goes to the floor. Where would you
16 rank the severity of a child in need?
17 A A 10.
18 Q What would you do if you saw a child at
19 the birthday party collapse to the floor having a
20 heart attack?
21 A Well, the first thing I'm going to do is
22 try to assist the child. I'm going to get on the
23 radio and call for backup, call for help, and clear
24 out the room, have staff take out the other kids,
25 just like if a kid is being disruptive and stuff,

165
1 the first thing you want to do is clear out the
2 room.
3 Q But you were a witness to a Level 10
4 abuse situation in your professional opinion and
5 didn't get up off your stool, nor did you report it.
6 Do you have any regrets about not taking action that
7 night or doing something differently?
8 A Yes.
9 Q What would you have done differently?
10 A Probably would have went over to the
11 child and asked Mr. Lawson to leave and then called
12 it in.
13 MS. HOSLER: I have a follow-up question
14 to that.
15 EXAMINATION
16 BY MS. HOSLER:
17 Q Mr. Lawson was in a supervisory position
18 over you?
19 A Yes, ma'am, yes, ma'am. That was the
20 only supervisor we had that night.
21 Q Were you his direct report?
22 A No. Ms. Rhonda was at that time my
23 direct supervisor.
24 Q So your direct supervisor was present?
25 A Ms. Rhonda wasn't.

166
1 Q Oh she wasn't. That's who you decided
2 you were going to speak to on Monday?
3 A Yes.
4 Q So you didn't have a direct supervisor
5 present on staff that night?
6 A Correct.
7 Q And then you were off the following day?
8 A Yes.
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. TRICHLER:
11 Q Do you have Rhonda's cell phone number?
12 If you have an emergency, is there a way to get
13 ahold of Rhonda?
14 A Well, some people have her cell phone
15 number.
16 Q Do you have her cell phone number?
17 A I don't think I have her cell phone.
18 Q Did you have any way to get ahold of
19 Rhonda that evening?
20 A No, sir.
21 EXAMINATION
22 BY MS. CICHON:
23 Q If a fire broke out on campus, what is
24 protocol? Who is the night leader that you would
25 call if your supervisors --

167
1 A We have some supervisors, but Mr. Tre
2 didn't stay that long. We have some supervisors
3 that work 6 p. to 2 a.m., and then we have a shift
4 leader and stuff. So if any emergency or anything
5 like that, you know, the shift leader -- we follow
6 the shift leader's direction.
7 Q If the shift leader is out of commission
8 helping a kid that's sick --
9 A Well, we all have -- if a kick is sick.
10 Q I'm just trying to understand the
11 escalation, the chain of command. So if physical
12 leadership is not present but it's a nighttime shift
13 and you need something because there's a Level 10
14 qualified emergency, what is your protocol? What
15 are you taught?
16 A Well, if it's a medical issue, then you
17 call the nurse, and the nurse gives you directions
18 whether or not -- what to do.
19 Q Any other incident, you would wait until
20 the next day until there was a leader?
21 A Well, I mean, I can't report it to the
22 guy that I seen hit the child. So we didn't have no
23 other supervisor.
24 EXAMINATION
25 BY MS. BELL:

168
1 Q You just said there were other leaders.
2 A I said it was a shift -- she said what --
3 I said it was a shift leader. But he's over the
4 shift leader, Mr. Tre is over the shift. It's RSCs,
5 then it's the shift leaders 2s and 1s, but that's
6 his boss. He's the boss of him too and myself too.
7 EXAMINATION
8 BY MS. HOSLER:
9 Q So you didn't feel like there was really
10 anybody you could report this to?
11 A Right.
12 Q I have one question You keep referring
13 to him as Mr. Tre. How was he referred to at your
14 facility? Mr. Tre? Mr. Lawson? Tre Lawson?
15 A They called him Tre, but I always called
16 him Mr. Tre. I always called the supervisors Mr. or
17 Mrs.
18 Q Did any of the children know his last
19 name? Did you guys reveal that to the children?
20 A They might have known his last name, I'm
21 not really sure.
22 Q What about your badges? Your badges are
23 always --
24 A Our badges have our first and last name.
25 Q Okay. And you're required to wear your

169
1 badges at all times?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q So if you were to turn your badge, would
4 that be a demerit? Would there be some sort of
5 disciplinary action?
6 A If I was to turn it?
7 Q Yes, to turn it out of the view of the
8 children.
9 A No. I mean, sometimes badges get turned
10 because some people wear them like a lanyard around,
11 so they can get flipped or whatever and stuff. Some
12 kids, they're good with reading and some kids are
13 not, so they're able to read your name.
14 Q Okay. So some staff didn't intentionally
15 hide their name as written on the badge from the
16 children that you know of?
17 A No.
18 Q Then my final question. It sounds like
19 the facility sort of selectively enforced some of
20 its policies and procedures. Would you agree with
21 that?
22 A Can you repeat that?
23 Q What I mean is, that the policies and
24 procedures were in place, but they weren't always
25 strictly enforced.

170
1 A Yes.
2 Q You would agree with that?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Can you name an example of a time when
5 you saw the occurrence of selective enforcement?
6 A Well, it's like it's certain policies and
7 procedures. There are certain rules that certain
8 people can do certain things and then certain people
9 can't. So it's kind of like overlooked.
10 Q For some people?
11 A For some people.
12 Q Some people are given deference, perhaps?
13 A Um-hum, (moves head up and down.)
14 Q You would agree that?
15 A Um-hum.
17 EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. CARBAUGH:
19 Q Ms. Simmons, I'm over here on the left.
20 Are you aware that the sheriff's office conducted an
21 investigation and found no criminal, no crime of
22 child abuse?
23 A No, I never talked with anyone from the
24 sheriff's department.
25 Q Did you know that they conducted an

171
1 investigation?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q Are you aware that the CPI -- there was a
4 child protective investigation?
5 A No, sir.
6 MR. CARBAUGH: That's all I have. Thank
7 you.
8 EXAMINATION
9 BY MS. BELL:
10 Q So your testimony is that Mr. Lawson
11 struck LG on the left cheek. Is that correct?
12 A Um-hum.
13 Q On Page 22 of your transcripts, Line --
14 MS. GREEN: It's still Exhibit 11.
15 Q Mr. Duckworth asked --
16 "So you're not sure if he was -- if when
17 he struck or attempted to -- you're certain he
18 struck her?"
19 "Yes, I'm certain he struck her."
20 Mr. Duckworth: But you're not sure
21 whether it may have hit her shoulder or her
22 face or --
23 Right, because" -- and I'll skip down --
24 "the minor child was tall," blah, blah, blah.
25 Line 25, "I'm not sure about the face, but I

172
1 know he made contact with her because, you
2 know, all of a sudden, he stood up. She's
3 taller than him. She's a pretty tall girl."
4 So your testimony tonight is that you
5 saw -- and I believe you said you have seen it a
6 million and one times when you close your eyes,
7 you've seen this incident, and he struck her on her
8 left cheek. Yet when you were interviewed by Mr.
9 Duckworth, you believe it was her shoulder?
10 A It wasn't her shoulder. It was up in a
11 higher in her body.
12 Q Why would you have told Mr. Duckworth it
13 was her shoulder, do you think?
14 A Because I was visibly trying to remember
15 all the stuff that I needed to tell Mr. Duckworth,
16 so I'm sorry if I made a mistake.
17 Q That wasn't accurate. Well, that's a
18 pretty -- I mean, that's a key point to this. This
19 man has lost his job. And you say on Line 15 of
20 Page 23: Because he has fingernails, she probably
21 would have got -- so I'm thinking mostly on the
22 shoulder. You don't say, "I saw him hit her
23 shoulder," because on Line 16 --
24 A Excuse me. I'm not able to follow. I'm
25 not sure where you're at.

173
1 MS. BELL: Can you help her out?
2 MS. GREEN: I think she's at Page 23, and
3 the paragraph she's focused on begins at Line
4 10.
5 MS. BELL: Yes.
6 MS. GREEN: And that says, "MS. SIMMONS:
7 No, I don't think they took" -- can you --
8 A Yes, the nurse wasn't there.
9 Q So if you go down a couple of lines, "I
10 don't think they may -- nothing like that, because
11 if he would have hit her in the face, he probably --
12 because he has fingernails, she probably would have
13 got thing -- so I'm thinking mostly on the shoulder,
14 because he would have got probably torn skin or
15 something on the face."
16 MR. CANASI: "She" would have.
17 THE WITNESS: She would have.
18 MS. BELL: "She" would have.
20 Q So did you see Mr. Lawson strike LG on
21 the face that you've seen a million and one times
22 when you close your eyes, as you've testified
23 tonight, or on most likely the shoulder, you're
24 thinking the shoulder that you testified to HR?
25 A I seen Mr. Lawson hit her in the face, on

174
1 the cheek.
2 Q So why did you tell Mr. Duckworth it was
3 the shoulder? Because there's a lot of conversation
4 there, a lot of back and forth, long fingernails,
5 where everybody was standing.
6 A Well, the girl is tall, she's taller than
7 him and she went back like that, so I mean -- and
8 the hit could have came and brushed down on her
9 shoulder, so I mean --
10 Q You witnessed it. Did you see the hit
11 come down and brush her shoulder?
12 A Ma'am, I seen the hit and stuff, you
13 know.
14 Q Ma'am, you've given two different
15 versions, so I'm just trying to find out --
16 A I seen him hit the young lady. Whether
17 or not he did it intentional, whether or not he did
18 it with malice, or whatever, but he struck the young
19 lady back. I was not aware that it was -- that CPI
20 was involved. I was not aware that the sheriff's
21 department was involved. None of these people
22 contacted me for a statement.
23 Q But Mr. Duckworth did?
24 A Mr. Duckworth did.
25 Q And you're now contradicting the

175
1 statement that you made and you have several times?
2 A I'm not contradicting the thing, but how
3 long ago was this?
4 Q You are contradicting it.
5 A Okay. Well, I'm sorry.
6 Q I mean, are you not? Your statement, you
7 say, "So I'm thinking mostly on the shoulder." You
8 only talked to Mr. Duckworth. That's what you told
9 Mr. Duckworth. Yet tonight, a million and one times
10 you've closed your eyes, and it was on the left
11 cheek?
12 A Yes, (indicating).
13 Q And tonight, Mr. Lawson immediately left,
14 not according to that video. And tonight, Ms. Tate
15 was the closest, I put my hand on the bible, she was
16 by the end of the bar. That's not on the video.
17 A She was, she went up to him, Ms. Tate.
18 Q She did go up to him?
19 A Yes.
20 Q But not when it occurred?
21 A On the other video that I seen, Ms. Tate
22 was right in the middle. She was closest to him.
23 MS. BELL: I don't have any other
24 questions.
25 MR. ZINOBER: Any other board-member

176
1 comments?
2 MR. CANASI: No.
3 MS. HOSLER: I have one final question,
4 and I'll let you go.
5 EXAMINATION
6 BY MS. HOSLER:
7 Q Did you discuss your testimony with
8 anybody before coming here today?
9 A No, ma'am.
10 Q So since the incident occurred up until
11 today, you haven't discussed the substance of what
12 happened?
13 A No. I received a transcript from Ms.
14 Danielle. That was it.
16 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.
17 MS. GREEN: Just one question.
18 MR. ZINOBER: One question.
20 BY MS. GREEN:
21 Q Is it possible you were interviewed by
22 the CPI investigator by telephone and you didn't
23 remember that?
24 A It's possible.

177
1 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Lawson, one question or
2 none?
4 MR. ZINOBER: Ma'am, you're not going to
5 be released. You can go back into the witness
6 room.
8 MR. CANASI: What's the board's pleasure
9 here? Do you want to continue going? Do you
10 feel like you need to listen to any more
11 witnesses?
12 MS. CICHON: I have respect for the
13 process, but I also think I've heard enough.
14 MS. BELL: I agree, I agree. She has
15 contradicted herself multiple times. She has
16 spoken to people she doesn't recall. She has
17 texted and gotten texts from people that she
18 now she says she hasn't done, face, shoulder.
19 MS. HOSLER: I am always fearful of
20 violating people's due process rights, so I'm
21 in favor of giving the county an opportunity to
22 move forward.
23 MR. TRICHLER: I would be in Chandra's
24 position.
25 MR. ZINOBER: How many more witnesses do

178
1 you have?
2 MS. GREEN: Let me look.
3 MR. ZINOBER: Could the clerk's
4 representative tell us how much time the county
5 has left of their 90 minutes?
6 MR. GUERRERO: 35 minutes exactly.
7 MR. CARBAUGH: I think that we should
8 hear the whole case.
9 MS. GREEN: Three, maybe four.
10 MR. ZINOBER: In 35 minutes?
11 MS. GREEN: Yes.
12 MR. ZINOBER: Without any closing?
13 MS. GREEN: No.
14 MR. ZINOBER: Well, just bear in mind,
15 you've got 35 minutes for the rest of your case
16 plus cross-examination.
17 MS. GREEN: The impatience of the board
18 is painfully clear. But I do need a personal
19 necessity break. It's been three hours.
20 (Recess from 10:23 p.m. to 10:35 p.m.)
21 MR. CANASI: Call this hearing back to
22 order. Roll call.
23 MR. GUERRERO: Canasi?
24 MR. CANASI: Here.
25 THE GUERRERO: Trichler?

179
2 MR. GUERRERO: Strepina? Carbaugh?
5 MS. HOSLER: Here.
7 MS. CICHON: Here.
9 MS. BELL: Here.
10 MR. GUERRERO: Thank you. You have a
11 quorum.
12 MR. CANASI: Thank you. Ms. Green, call
13 your next witness.
14 MS. GREEN: Kyle Gregory.
15 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Gregory, you're still
16 under oath. Could you state your full name for
17 the record?
18 THE WITNESS: Kyle Richard Gregory.
19 MR. ZINOBER: Your witness.
20 * * * * * * * * *
21 KYLE RICHARD GREGORY,

180
1 BY MS. GREEN:
2 Q Can you tell me what your title is?
3 A I'm a child protective investigator.
4 Q Where are you employed?
5 A Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office.
6 Q How long have you been employed there?
7 A Three years.
8 Q And prior to working there, where did you
9 work?
10 A I worked at Kids Peace, which is a mental
11 and behavioral health hospital located in
12 Pennsylvania.
13 Q What was your responsibility there?
14 A I was a mental-health technician. My job
15 duty was to watch the children on our unit and
16 provide direct care.
17 Q Who is currently your direct supervisor
18 at the sheriff's office?
19 A My direct supervisor currently is Tracy
20 Eggleston. However, at the time of this report, it
21 was Vanessa Debaro.
22 Q Is her formal first name different than
23 Vanessa?
24 A Narkees.
25 Q How long did you report to her?

181
1 A I reported to her for one year.
2 Q What unit were you in at the time?
3 A The special investigations unit.
4 Q What types of incidents did you
5 investigate in that unit?
6 A In that unit, we investigate human
7 trafficking reports, reports on foster cares,
8 reports on day cares, reports on group homes,
9 special annual reports, which would be reports that
10 would be on law enforcement or something that's more
11 confidential, and the school reports.
12 Q And the investigation that's at issue in
13 this case, what category do they fall into?
14 A This would be an investigation on a group
15 home.
16 Q Okay. When investigating whether an
17 adult hit a child, what factors do you take into
18 consideration to determine whether child abuse
19 occurred?
20 A We look to see if there was actually a
21 physical altercation like a hit and also if there
22 was an injury to the child.
23 Q When you investigate whether an adult hit
24 a child and you close the case no indicator of
25 abuse, what does that mean?

182
1 A That there was no hit.
2 Q And when you investigate whether an adult
3 hit a child and you close the case verified
4 findings, what does that mean?
5 A That there would have been a hit and
6 there would have been a substantial injury on the
7 child.
8 Q Then the third category not
9 substantiated, when you investigate whether an adult
10 hit a child and you close the case not
11 substantiated, what does that mean?
12 A In this case, that there would be -- that
13 there was a hit but without an injury.
14 Q Did you investigate the allegation of
15 child abuse against Travenski Lawson stemming from
16 an incident at Lake Magdalene which occurred on
17 March 3rd?
18 A Yes.
19 Q What did you conclude happened between
20 Mr. Lawson and the child on March 3rd?
21 A From my findings, it was concluded that
22 Mr. Lawson had hit the child, however did not leave
23 any injury on the child.
24 Q What evidence led you to the conclusion
25 that Mr. Lawson hit the child?

183
1 A We had spoken with several witnesses at
2 Lake Magdalene as well as review video footage.
3 Q You said, "We had spoken to witnesses at
4 Lake Magdalene." Were they all in-person
5 interviews?
6 A I spoke with one in person and two via
7 telephone.
8 Q Okay. What information from the video
9 contributed to your conclusion that Mr. Lawson hit
10 the child?
11 A During the video, I observed the child
12 walk over to Mr. Lawson and hit him two to three
13 times using her right hand on his left side of his
14 face. I then observed Mr. Lawson to raise his hand
15 and swing toward the child. And the child also
16 moved to the direction the hit had come from -- or
17 was going. I apologize.
18 Q Did you determine where on the child's
19 body Mr. Lawson hit the child?
20 A During the video, it appeared as though
21 he hit the child in the face.
22 Q How did eyewitness accounts of what
23 happened impact your findings if at all?
24 A Speaking with them, two of the people
25 that I spoke with had confirmed that they had

184
1 observed Mr. Lawson hit the child.
2 Q How did you assess their credibility?
3 A I do not -- we typically just -- I don't
4 know.
5 Q Do you have any training on assessing
6 witness credibility?
7 MR. ZINOBER: I'm going to sustain an
8 objection that I'm making. You're usurping the
9 prerogative of the board by presuming that this
10 witness is going to tell the board how to
11 assess credibility.
12 MS. GREEN: Oh, no. That was not my
13 intent. I apologize if you interpreted that.
14 My apologize. That was not my intent at all.
15 MR. ZINOBER: He can testify as to what
16 evidence he considered to support his findings.
17 But in terms of assessing witness credibility,
18 I'm not permitting that question.
19 MS. GREEN: Understood.
20 BY MS. GREEN:
21 Q What information from Ms. Simmons
22 contributed to your conclusion that Mr. Lawson hit
23 the child?
24 A Ms. Simmons had -- she had informed me
25 that she witnessed the punching -- I mean the hit, I

185
1 apologize -- and that Mr. Lawson appeared angry and
2 embarrassed during the hit.
3 Q Who was the other eyewitness?
4 A Michelle Veale.
5 Q What information from her contributed to
6 your conclusion that Mr. Lawson hit the child?
7 A She had said that she had observed the
8 hit and also heard the sound of both the smacks from
9 the child and from Mr. Lawson.
10 Q Did you interview Mr. Lawson?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What was his explanation to you of what
13 happened between he and the child on March 3rd?
14 A He had said the child had come over
15 trying to -- that the child had come over to him
16 to -- and had slapped him on the face and that he
17 had flinched toward the child but did not make
18 contact with the child.
19 Q Did Mr. Lawson's explanation hold up
20 against the other evidence you collected?
21 A No.
22 Q Why not?
23 A Based on the two witnesses who they had
24 observed the hit and heard the hit, as well as the
25 video evidence that showed that Mr. Lawson -- it

186
1 appeared that Mr. Lawson hit the child.
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. LAWSON:
6 Q Mr. Gregory, can you briefly explain what
7 it is you do, the outcome that you seek?
8 A Can you rephrase the question, please?
9 Q Can you explain during your investigation
10 what outcome you seek?
11 A Yes. We close our reports with no
12 indicator findings, not substantiated findings and
13 verified findings.
14 Q Your purpose around an abuse
15 investigation is? What is your purpose around an
16 abuse investigation?
17 A We are trying to determine whether or not
18 child abuse has occurred.
19 Q How confident are you in your role as a
20 CPI?
21 A Fairly comfortable.
22 Q Upon completion of an investigation, do
23 you stand by your findings?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q The reason I ask is because, even now

187
1 you're mentioning that it appears as if I slapped
2 the child. But you explained that your decision for
3 not substantiated said that I did slap the child but
4 I didn't substantially injure the child?
5 A Yes. I looked at both the evidence from
6 what I was told from the eyewitnesses and also what
7 I observed in the video footage. That's what it
8 appeared. That's what it looked like I had seen in
9 the video footage.
10 Q Okay. It is mentioned in your report on
11 multiple occasions that someone reported to you that
12 I would not be terminated, but I'm not sure why an
13 adult name was redacted in this report. Do you
14 recall who that was?
15 A Not off the top of my head of who that
16 was, no.
18 EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. CANASI:
20 Q Did someone tell you that he would not be
21 terminated?
22 A Yes. When I was reviewing the notes, I
23 had seen that.
24 Q Okay. And the video that you saw, is it
25 the same video that we've seen here tonight?

188
1 MS. GREEN: I don't think he knows what's
2 here tonight.
3 MS. HOSLER: He hasn't seen the video?
4 BY MR. CANASI:
5 Q If you saw the video we have here
6 tonight, would you know if it's the same video you
7 saw?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 MR. CANASI: Can you play it, please?
10 MS. GREEN: Yes, sir.
11 (Playing video.)
12 MR. CANASI: You can stop it. Actually,
13 let it keep running.
14 BY MR. CANASI:
15 Q So from your perspective, what you saw
16 there was a hit?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 MR. CANASI: I don't have any questions.
19 Any questions from the rest of the Board?
20 MR. CARBAUGH: As long as we've got the
21 video up, can I ask you a favor? Go ahead and
22 rewind it a bit. There you go.
23 EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. CARBAUGH:
25 Q Can you the point out Ms. Simmons,

189
1 Cynthia Simmons? Do you know where she is?
2 A Only if I took a guess.
3 MR. CARBAUGH: Can somebody please point
4 her out?
5 (Ms. Green indicating.)
6 Q That's one of the witnesses that you
7 spoke to?
8 A Yes.
9 Q If you back it up before the incident.
10 Do me a favor, just look at Ms. Simmons' face and
11 tell me -- or ask Ms. Green to pause the tape when
12 you think she's looking at Mr. Lawson and the minor
13 child.
14 (Playing video.)
15 A Right now. It appears real quick, she
16 looked over, but --
17 Q She's looking away now?
18 A Yes.
19 MR. CARBAUGH: Play it just a little bit
20 more.
21 (Playing video.)
22 THE WITNESS: Now.
23 Q Yes. The incident is over, and all of
24 the supposed slapping on both parties is done.
25 There were a number of discrepancies in Ms. Simmons'

190
1 testimony, both written testimony as well as the
2 verbal testimony tonight. In terms of that video,
3 she described several things that, after we watched
4 the video, were not exactly the case.
5 Now, I'm asking you, after watching her
6 face during that video, do you think that she was
7 watching? Did she see the slapping take place?
8 A After watching the video, no.
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY MS. BELL:
11 Q Along the line, if we could please
12 rewind. Could we point out for Mr. Gregory Ms.
13 Veale?
14 MS. GREEN: She's the one in the ball cap
15 right there.
16 Q So let's do the same thing and watch her
17 when the incident takes place. (Playing video.)
18 She doesn't turn around. She's turned around.
19 After watching this video, does it look like --
20 two-part question. One, does it look like is it
21 Veale --
22 A Veale.
23 Q Does it look like Ms. Veale saw the slap,
24 No. 1? And, No. 2, her reaction following this
25 incident, is that something you would expect to see

191
1 from someone who just witnessed a child get slapped?
2 A To answer the first part of the question,
3 she was facing the area where the hit would have
4 occurred. I don't know, I can't see the front of
5 her face to be able to make that determination.
6 Q So based on her body language?
7 A Yes, based on her body language.
8 MS. BELL: Could we rewind and just watch
9 that part again, please?
10 (Playing video.)
11 MS. HOSLER: Cell phones aren't allowed?
12 MS. BELL: Right.
13 BY MS. BELL:
14 Q What would your opinion on that be as far
15 as that woman, Ms. Veale, just witnessed the abuse
16 of a child?
17 A I don't know if I can speak on what
18 anyone would feel when that would happen. People do
19 act in different ways.
20 Q In your experience, people who work in
21 childcare, particularly in situations like these
22 homes, would that be typical of someone with
23 childcare responsibilities to react? I mean, we can
24 keep playing.
25 A No, ma'am.

192
1 EXAMINATION
2 BY MS. CICHON:
3 Q I just have one question for you.
4 What is, I guess, the follow-through, part of the
5 chain of command for the CPI? So let's say you go
6 through the investigation, you make your
7 determination, so there's a disposition on a case,
8 it's closed.
9 Have there any been any experiences, any
10 examples in your experience where the findings have
11 been inaccurate and the case has been reopened and
12 resolved differently than what the initial
13 disposition was?
14 A Not since I've been employed.
15 Q How long have you been employed?
16 A Three years.
17 EXAMINATION
18 BY MS. BELL:
19 Q Did you say you don't recall who stated
20 to you that Mr. Lawson would not be terminated?
21 A I would have to give you two names. I do
22 not know for sure which one it was.
23 MR. CANASI: But someone did tell you
24 that?

193
1 BY MS. BELL:
2 Q Who redacted these files? Why is an
3 adult being redacted in this case? Would that be
4 your office or --
5 A It would be through our office. Whenever
6 a report is requested from our office, they do have
7 to take out certain confidential information. It's
8 not up to me what information. That would be on
9 them.
10 Q Can you think of any reason why someone,
11 an adult saying that Mr. Lawson will not be
12 terminated, why that might be redacted from this
13 file? Can you think of any reason why?
14 A Why it would be redacted from my report?
15 Q It's his report. Correct?
16 MS. BELL: Mr. Lawson, that you were
17 referring to?
19 BY MS. BELL:
20 Q Yes. It's redacted from your report.
21 A If she had said that to me, it would be
22 in my notes. That's not something that I would put,
23 because I'm not investigating whether or not he's
24 getting terminated or anything like that. I'm
25 investigating whether or not there was child abuse.

194
1 So that would have been something I may not have put
2 in the report just due to that reason.
3 Q You did put it in the report. The name
4 is redacted.
5 A Okay.
6 Q My question is: Why is the name of an
7 adult who apparently has the authority to speak on
8 whether or not Mr. Lawson's career will be ended,
9 why is that person given anonymity?
10 A I can't answer that. I'm not the one who
11 redacts the information. I can't speak to that.
12 Q But you said there were two names? It
13 would be one of two people that you think would have
14 been the one who told you that?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Who were those two people?
17 A JoAnn Rollins and Rhonda Rhodes.
19 EXAMINATION
20 BY MS. CICHON:
21 Q Can you tell me the sequence of your
22 investigation? So just walk us through the
23 sequence, when you're looking at video footage, when
24 you're speaking with the two eyewitnesses.
25 A We have 60 days to complete an

195
1 investigation. We do have a number of other
2 investigations that go on at a time. Pretty much
3 when we get a report, our main goal is to make
4 contact with the child victim.
5 Depending on whether or not we have law
6 enforcement with us determines whether or not we
7 would speak with the AP or the suspect or whatever
8 word you would like to use for that. But, again, we
9 have 60 days to complete all of the other tasks that
10 are assigned, so it can go -- you know, different
11 tasks can be completed at different times.
12 Q Do you recall for this specific scenario
13 the order in which you spoke to the witnesses and
14 watched the video, if one preceded the other?
15 A Yes. I spoke with child then witness,
16 the video and then the other two witnesses.
17 Q So you didn't have a chance to go back
18 and watch the video after hearing the witnesses to
19 kind of have the dialogue we had tonight about who
20 was looking when the incident occurred?
21 A No, I did not look at that.
22 MS. CICHON: Thank you.
23 MR. CARBAUGH: I have a question.
24 EXAMINATION
25 BY MR. CARBAUGH:

196
1 Q We were told earlier that there were five
2 witnesses. You just mentioned four. Were there
3 four or five? Do you know?
4 A There was three witnesses that I spoke
5 with.
6 Q The child?
7 A I wasn't counting the child as being a
8 witness, she was the victim in it.
9 Q Okay.
10 A If you're counting the child, then I
11 would say four.
12 Q Four. Can you explain how those four,
13 those three were chosen? Was it based on video?
14 Was it based on people coming to you? Were you
15 deciding who?
16 A I was provided their names.
17 Q We might play the video one more time. I
18 watched this video a number of times, and I look at
19 it staring at one person's face every time. And
20 after watching it a half a dozen times, the one
21 witness that I think was watching it the whole time
22 and would have seen more than any other person in
23 the room was a minor child. I think the initials
24 are KH standing next to Mr. Lawson in a red shirt.
25 And she was never interviewed. Is that correct?

197
1 A That is correct.
2 Q Can you watch that and tell me whether
3 you think maybe she could have provided better
4 information?
5 (Playing video.)
6 MR. CANASI: That's your eyewitness.
7 A Yes, sir.
8 MR. CARBAUGH: Okay. Thank you. No
9 other questions.
10 MR. HOSLER: No other questions.
11 MR. CARBAUGH: Actually I do have one
12 more.
13 BY MR. CARBAUGH:
14 Q Did it surprise you when the minor child
15 said, "No, he didn't hit me"?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Do you have any thoughts or explanation
18 as to why she would have, I guess, lied?
19 A No, I do not.
20 MR. CARBAUGH: Okay.
21 MR. CANASI: Any other questions?
23 BY MS. GREEN:
24 Q Have you had any other cases where a
25 child victim, for whatever reason, denies violence

198
1 or abuse that you later determine actually did
2 happen?
3 A Yes, not that I can remember any
4 specifics at this time, though.
5 Q Do you know of any reasons why a child
6 not might disclose the truth?
7 A Some instances fear, some instances just
8 not wanting to speak to anybody, other instances
9 just not wanting to cooperate.
10 Q Is it possible that sometimes the child
11 wants to protect the person accused of abuse?
12 A It is possible.
13 Q The references that you made in your
14 report and your notes of people at Lake Magdalene
15 saying that Mr. Lawson was not going to be
16 terminated or had not been terminated, could they
17 have been referencing at this minute instead of
18 ultimately?
19 A That is how I took it when they had said
20 that to me.
21 EXAMINATION
22 BY MS. BELL:
23 Q But when it was said to you, the HR
24 investigation had already concluded?
25 A I don't follow up with the HR

199
1 investigation.
2 Q I think, if I'm not mistaken, you spoke
3 with Mr. Duckworth?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And he informed you he was wrapping the
6 investigation up, he gave you his thoughts. So
7 that's interesting.
8 A Should I respond?
9 Q If you want.
10 A That's not something that we would
11 follow up with our HR report. Our findings are
12 different than whatever theirs would be.
13 EXAMINATION
14 BY MS. HOSLER:
15 Q Your findings had been concluded.
16 Correct?
17 A At the time of Mr. Duckworth speaking
18 with me?
19 Q At the time you heard that he would not
20 be terminated.
21 A Our findings wouldn't come out until
22 after everyone was spoken to --
23 Q Okay. So the remark was made to you in
24 the beginning of the investigation, the middle or
25 end?

200
1 A I believe Mr. Duckworth spoke with me in
2 the middle of the investigation.
3 MS. HOSLER: Okay.
4 MR. CANASI: Any other questions for this
5 witness?
6 MS. GREEN: Yes.
7 MR. ZINOBER: I think we've heard enough.
8 MS. GREEN: I do have another question.
9 MR. ZINOBER: Well, I think we've heard
10 enough.
11 MS. GREEN: I think it's important.
12 MR. ZINOBER: Based upon what?
13 MS. GREEN: Based upon discussion of the
14 board members earlier in terms of delay in
15 process. Does that make sense?
16 MR. ZINOBER: One question.
17 MS. GREEN: One question?
18 MR. ZINOBER: Recognizing that board
19 members may follow up.
20 MS. GREEN: Of course.
21 MR. ZINOBER: And there are no more
22 questions after that.
23 MS. GREEN: Yes.
25 BY MS. GREEN:

201
1 Q What is the process after you close your
2 investigation for a report to go to the accused or
3 to go to the group home?
4 A When we have -- we would send out a
5 closure letter to the facility and also list the AP
6 or suspect's name on the closure letter.
7 Q Does the letter include your report?
8 A No, it does not. They still would need
9 to come into the office to request it.
10 MS. GREEN: No further questions.
11 MR. ZINOBER: Board members? No? You
12 are excused.
13 MR. CANASI: There's some witnesses out
14 there that have already been excused that we've
15 told to stay. Do they really need to stay?
16 MS. GREEN: Do you want me to answer
17 that?
18 MR. ZINOBER: They're your witnesses.
19 MR. CANASI: They're your witnesses.
20 MS. GREEN: Well, yes. I mean, in the
21 normal course of things, we put on our case.
22 He puts on his case, and sometimes something in
23 his case requires us to recall someone on
24 rebuttal, so, yes.
25 MR. ZINOBER: You can go and resume your

202
1 seat in the witness room. Thank you. Next
2 witness.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
4 MR. ZINOBER: Would you state your full
5 name for the record?
6 THE WITNESS: Michelle Buchanan, formerly
7 Veale.
8 MR. ZINOBER: And you're still under
9 oath.
11 MS. GREEN: Are you sick? The only
12 reason I say that, I've spoken to her before
13 and she didn't sound like that.
14 THE WITNESS: It comes and goes.
15 * * * * * * * * *.
16 MICHELLE BUCHANAN VEALE,
21 BY MS. GREEN:
22 Q Please state your title for the record.
23 A Treatment counselor.
24 Q When did you begin working for

203
1 A November 30, 2015.
2 Q Prior to that, did you have experience in
3 a similar-type job?
4 A Yes.
5 Q For how many years?
6 A I'd say case management, maybe over 10
7 years.
8 Q Do you know the appellant in this case,
9 Tre Lawson?
10 A From working.
11 Q When he worked for the county, what was
12 your reporting relationship with respect to
13 Mr. Lawson?
14 A He worked with operations in the cottages
15 with the kids and supervisor. I case-managed the
16 children.
17 Q So was he your supervisor?
18 A No.
19 Q Were you his supervisor?
20 A No.
21 Q Peers, then?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Did you work the evening of March 3,
24 2018?
25 A Yes.

204
1 Q Is that outside your normal working
2 hours?
3 A Well, I have different work hours, and I
4 stay 8 to 5.
5 Q Are you usually there at 8:00 on a Friday
6 night or Saturday night?
7 A Sometimes.
8 Q So you don't have standard shifts that
9 you work?
10 A Correct.
11 Q Please describe for the board members
12 while you were working that evening.
13 A There was a youth, she was aging out, and
14 we gave her a party.
15 Q Did you see Mr. Lawson there at the
16 birthday party?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Please describe what you saw and heard
19 when Mr. Lawson arrived at the birthday.
20 A He was doing what he normally does. He
21 was watching over the campus and monitoring the
22 children, and he walked in the cafeteria at one
23 time.
24 Q What happened next?
25 A The kids were engaging with one another

205
1 dancing. We had children on both sides of the
2 cafeteria, and there was a young lady, she was a
3 little rambunctious, you know, just kind of
4 bothering the boys, picking at them, just she was
5 really hyper.
6 She walked over to the side where I was
7 working -- where I was standing as well as Ms.
8 Simmons, and she kind of engaged a little bit, and
9 then she walked over to Mr. Lawson.
10 Q And what happened next?
11 A She slapped him about two times.
12 Q And then what happened?
13 A He slapped her back.
14 Q What part of the body did he slap her on?
15 A I think on her cheek.
16 Q Were you in a position to observe Mr.
17 Lawson's face when that happened?
18 A I believe at the time that I heard some
19 commotion and just -- I can see his face, he just
20 looked shocked.
21 Q What about him made you think that he
22 looked shocked?
23 A Probably that the child hit him.
24 Q No, I don't think you understood my
25 question. What about Mr. Lawson -- what about his

206
1 appearance made you think that he looked shocked?
2 A Oh. Kind of like a surprised look, maybe
3 his eyes kind of stretched.
4 Q Right after Mr. Lawson slapped the child,
5 immediately thereafter, did you walk over to him?
6 A No. We had another staff at the time,
7 Ms. Tate. She kind of walked past me and just said,
8 "Well, I'll talk care of it and I'll try and calm
9 him down," and she went over to him. I don't know
10 what was said.
11 Q While cleaning up, did you see Mr. Lawson
12 in the kitchen?
13 A Correct.
14 Q Was this before or after you saw Mr.
15 Lawson slap the child?
16 A It was after.
17 Q What's the protocol when a child is hit
18 by a staff member? What are you supposed to do?
19 A Usually we try to remove the child from
20 the situation or someone should move out of that
21 environment.
22 Q Did that happen here?
23 A No. I had to ask several times for staff
24 to remove her even before that occurred.
25 Q Why?

207
1 A Because she was just a little out of
2 hand, like I said before, really hyper, running
3 around, just doing more than usual.
4 Q And you said you had asked that she be
5 removed. Who did you ask?
6 A Well, that particular staff is not here.
7 She was actually in her cottage that night.
8 Q What is her name?
9 A Ms. Tate.
10 Q You didn't call the abuse hotline right
11 after this happened?
12 A No, I didn't.
13 Q Why not?
14 A I'm going to be honest. When she said
15 she would take care of it, that's what I thought. I
16 think that was Saturday. I'm off Sunday. When I
17 came to work, usually we have what we call a
18 briefing. That's where we go over all the kids and
19 read reports and there was no report at the time,
20 and my supervisor I had a discussion with her, and I
21 had to call in a report.
22 Q So you said that someone said they would
23 take care of it. Who was that?
24 A Ms. Tate.
25 Q By "take care of it," you understood that

208
1 to mean what?
2 A To call up and report or write up an
3 internal report or something regarding the incident.
4 Q How many times did you ask Ms. Tate to
5 remove the child?
6 A It was at least about two to three times.
7 That child, she was just being wild that night.
8 Q How many times -- before the physical
9 contact between Mr. Lawson and the child, how many
10 times before that did you ask that she be removed?
11 A At least twice.
12 Q Then how many times after the physical
13 contact?
14 A At least once.
15 Q How can you be sure Mr. Lawson hit the
16 child?
17 A When I heard the commotion, when the
18 child hit him first, I could hear it, and at the
19 time that I had turned my head, I saw him strike her
20 back.
21 Q You said you saw him strike her back. Is
22 that what you said?
23 A Correct.
24 Q After you saw Mr. Lawson slap the child,
25 did you have any conversation with Cynthia Simmons

209
1 about Mr. Lawson's conduct?
2 A I believe Cynthia had just said something
3 like -- or I said, "Did you see that?" One of us,
4 it was several months ago, so -- and Cynthia just
5 said, "I don't know why he keeps apologizing."
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. LAWSON:
10 Q Ms. Veale, are you aware of the procedure
11 for reporting abuse?
12 A Correct.
13 Q At the time of the alleged incident, what
14 was the reason that you decided not to call abuse
15 again?
16 A Well, not just decided not to call it.
17 We didn't want to draw attention to the children.
18 Also, staff that should have been monitoring the
19 children -- because there was more than five that's
20 usually in that cottage -- they were at the other
21 end of the cafeteria talking between one another,
22 not monitoring the children, and I was there with
23 Cynthia. And at the time, our main focus was to get
24 those children out after the incident occurred.
25 Q How soon after the incident occurred was

210
1 it that you got the children out?
2 A I can't give you an exact time. But I
3 went in the kitchen to clean up and get some rags
4 and take the cake back to the cottage.
5 Q Do you remember what time this incident
6 occurred?
7 A No, I don't.
8 Q Was it earlier, early in the party? Was
9 it late, the incident?
10 A Probably midway.
11 Q Can you demonstrate the slap that you
12 saw, hand motion?
13 A I just saw the young lady. It seemed as
14 though she may have used her right hand.
15 Q The slap that I -- did I slap the young
16 lady?
17 A You just slapped the cheek back.
18 Q And your immediate response to the slap?
19 A I'm sorry?
20 Q What was your immediate response to me
21 slapping the young lady?
22 A I'm sorry. It shocked me.
23 Q It shocked you. You say you didn't want
24 to draw attention to the kids. Were you not able to
25 step outside to call abuse if that was the case?

211
1 A No, because there was staff sitting at
2 the other end of the cafeteria not monitoring the
3 children as they should have. They were sitting
4 there talking between one another and on their
5 phones.
6 Q You mentioned that you all were supposed
7 to report it and call abuse. Correct?
8 A I said that's what I understood. Then
9 she said, "I'll take care of it and try and calm him
10 down."
11 Q In your interview with Mr. Duckworth, you
12 mentioned that you initiated a report and was told
13 there should have been an internal report which
14 would be sent to Eckerd, and the youth's case
15 manager had to be notified. Is there a reason that
16 you didn't notify the youth's case manager or you
17 didn't complete the report that you initiated?
18 A Yes. I was told to write the report, and
19 whoever reviews them, they said that was sufficient,
20 but the case manager is always contacted.
21 Q But this was Saturday night when you said
22 you was doing this. But you say you stopped because
23 they said it was internal. That's why I was asking.
24 Is there a reason that you didn't complete the
25 report that night?

212
1 A I'm sorry. I don't understand what
2 you're saying.
3 Q You say initiated the Eckerd report that
4 evening, according to your interview. Is there a
5 reason that you didn't complete the report that
6 evening?
7 A I didn't know there was anything else to
8 complete once I wrote a report. If there was
9 anything that was different, then I would have been
10 advised of that, I believe.
11 Q The reason I'm asking, because your
12 report was written on March 5th. This is March 3rd
13 when you say that you initiated a report that
14 evening that it occurred. But you said someone told
15 you that there was an internal report, so you was
16 going to wait until Monday to speak with Rhonda.
17 A I'm still not understanding what you're
18 trying to say. Am I able to look at that?
19 Q I'm not sure which --
20 MS. BELL: It should be Exhibit 13.
22 Q It's Page 30, the transcript from your
23 interview.
24 Tab 13, Page 30, starting at Line No. 5,
25 it says, "Well, I was starting a report, but then

213
1 they told me that's an internal report. Then that's
2 why, when Rhonda came to work Monday, I had -- I
3 went in to report it to her, and we called the abuse
4 line together."
5 When asked what you meant by internal
6 report, you mentioned, "I guess it's for Eckerd."
7 Then you said, "The internal report is for Eckerd.
8 So we have to send them a copy and notify the
9 worker. And we'll send the worker a copy if they
10 ask for it. But it goes in their system."
11 So I'm asking: Since you started a report
12 Saturday evening, why did you not complete the
13 report that evening and notify your supervisor and
14 the youth's case manager?
15 A I believe that's possible it could have
16 been on the wrong form. And then I was told that I
17 had to do it on some other form because when you're
18 saying "internal," internal would be within
19 Children's Services.
20 Q You said internal.
21 A Okay. Well, I'm just saying.
22 Q So did you not have access to the correct
23 forms if that was the case?
24 A I only wrote when I go in my G drive and
25 I pull up "incident report," that's what I pulled up

214
1 at the time.
2 MS. BELL: That was on Saturday night?
3 THE WITNESS: Correct.
4 BY MR. LAWSON:
5 Q Okay. What was your reason for ending
6 the party when you did?
7 A Like I said, I didn't want to draw any
8 more attention to the children. I know there was a
9 few of them that saw it, but the other kids was so
10 busy dancing, they were engaging. We wanted to try
11 and get them out of the cafeteria before it was even
12 brought up or they made a big commotion about it.
13 Q Earlier in your conversation, you said
14 the party -- well, in your interview, you said the
15 party started around 7:45, 8:00. On Page 27 of the
16 same exhibit, the interview, you stated that the
17 party ended after 10 because you started to clean up
18 and you were going to cut the cake but decided not
19 to because so many kids -- and the gets kids were
20 getting antsy?
21 A Yes, they were.
22 Q Now, this is at 10:00. This was an hour
23 and a half after the alleged incident.
24 A And when I spoke to Mr. Duckworth, I let
25 him know that I wasn't exactly sure of the time.

215
1 Several times, he started his recording and he
2 stopped it, he started it and he stopped it.
3 Q What time did you leave that evening? Do
4 you recall?
5 (No response)
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY MS. BELL:
8 Q I'm sorry. That was during the interview
9 with HR, which we have the recording, we have the
10 actual recording. You're saying that during his
11 interview with you, in the beginning he says: My
12 name is Mr. Duckworth, blah, blah, blah, blah.
13 Here's what time it is?
14 A Um-hum.
15 Q Your name is blah, blah, blah, and he
16 starts recording. And then when he's done, he says,
17 "Okay. I'm going to end the recording now." Are
18 you saying that during that time when you were
19 giving your testimony to Mr. Duckworth, he was
20 stopping and starting the tape recorder?
21 A I said sometimes he had to stop it and
22 start it, and then he would start over, I guess when
23 he wanted to form the question in the correct way,
24 yes.
25 EXAMINATION

216
1 BY MS. HOSLER:
2 Q Was that also done to assist your
3 recollection of certain events?
4 A No, I don't think so.
5 Q Just to rephrase his questions to you?
6 A Correct.
7 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. LAWSON:
9 Q After going back to Cottage 2, do you
10 recall how long you all were in Cottage 2 prior to
11 leaving for the evening?
12 A I can't recall.
13 Q Do you know if it was a few minutes? 30?
14 An hour? Like approximate.
15 A I'm not sure. I know I just talked to
16 the young lady that was aging out because she was
17 having some anxiety about leaving and being on her
18 own or in extended care, and then I left.
20 MR. ZINOBER: Any redirect?
21 MS. GREEN: No.
22 EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. TRICHLER:
24 Q At the party, did you have your own
25 personal cell phone with you?

217
1 A No, I didn't have it. I think -- well, I
2 may have, I'm not sure. I might have put it in my
3 back pocket because we --
4 Q But you had it close to you?
5 A I really can't recall at this time
6 because we try not to walk around with phones on the
7 campus. We're not supposed to.
8 EXAMINATION
9 BY MS. BELL:
10 Q Is that against policy to have your cell
11 phone out and be using your cell phone while you're
12 on duty?
13 A Yes, it's against policy.
14 Q It's against policy?
15 A (Moves head up and down.)
16 EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. CANASI:
18 Q Who is the one with the white hat holding
19 her phone?
20 A That's me. I said we try not to, but
21 there are cases where some people like the staff or
22 something have my number in case of emergency.
23 EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. TRICHLER:
25 Q You said the other staff members were not

218
1 monitoring the children, they were on their phones
2 in the back of the room. Is that right?
3 A Right. I know one of them was handing
4 out pizza, but they could have been like texting or
5 something.
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY MS. HOSLER:
8 Q What were you doing on your phone?
9 A It probably was just in my hand because I
10 don't know what I was doing at the time. But
11 usually I try and leave it in my back pocket.
12 EXAMINATION
13 BY MS. BELL:
14 Q But you said you have it because some of
15 your staff members might need to contact you if
16 there's some kind of emergency or something?
17 A Sometimes, only because I was there that
18 late, because I also have a special-needs
19 grandchild. That's normally if I'm there late or
20 something, but normally I use my desk phone.
21 EXAMINATION
22 BY MS. HOSLER:
23 Q Are you one of those employees under a
24 mandatory reporting requirement?
25 A Correct.

219
1 Q You are?
2 A Correct.
3 Q Did you report this incident? I thought
4 your testimony was that you were shocked when you
5 saw the get child get struck.
6 A I was. When I come in Monday morning,
7 like I said, I didn't see any type of internal
8 report or anything. Then I went to speak to my
9 supervisor and report it.
10 Q I'm sorry to interrupt. So when you
11 witnessed the child get struck -- which I think is
12 pretty egregious, personally -- did you take any
13 steps toward the child? Did you run over to her and
14 say, "Hey, are you okay," or anything like that?
15 A No. At the time, Ms. Tate was standing
16 right there in front of Mr. Lawson, and then there
17 was something else going on. I think she was just
18 being defiant and not listening, and she was upset.
19 Something was going on in between inside and going
20 out the door with her as well.
21 Q So even though you were shocked, you
22 didn't find it necessary to run over and console
23 this thirteen-year-old child? Is that what you're
24 testimony is?
25 A No. Actually, the youth, she just kept

220
1 -- she acted as if everything was normal.
2 Q After she was struck?
3 A And Ms. Tate was still there at the time.
4 Q After she was struck, she acted like
5 everything was normal?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Why do you think that was?
8 A We have some children -- and we don't
9 know their entire history coming from home. But
10 some children that go trauma, they're very
11 impulsive. We don't know why they do what they do
12 or they may feel comfortable, that it's okay to play
13 with the staff like that.
14 Yes, I understand that. Some children
15 are -- some people are desensitized to certain
16 things that others aren't, I get that perspective.
17 But do you think the two were
18 horseplaying? Or do you think it was a fight?
19 Would you classify it as an act of aggression
20 between the two or just horseplay?
21 A I believe the child was horseplaying, and
22 I believe it was a reaction from Mr. Lawson.
23 Q Do you believe he was responding in a
24 horseplaying manner as well, or was he angry, or
25 would you say it was a reflexive motion from him?

221
1 A I mean, I can't answer that definitely
2 for him. It seemed like a reaction that, "I'm upset
3 that this child slapped me."
4 Q What did he do afterwards?
5 A I know he had went out the cafeteria for
6 a minute while I was cleaning up, then he came in
7 the kitchen as well.
8 Q So walk me through what you saw. How
9 many times did you see her strike him? Do you
10 remember?
11 A The child, twice.
12 Q So the child -- was the child near him?
13 Did she run up to him?
14 A She walked over. I think she kind of
15 walked through the other side of the cafeteria,
16 walked to the side where we were and walked over to
17 Mr. Lawson.
18 Q So she walked over to him and struck him
19 on the face?
20 A Correct.
21 Q How many times? Do you remember?
22 A I believe it was twice.
23 Q But you think she was horseplaying or she
24 was kind of joking around?
25 A I believe.

222
1 Q What do you think her intent was? Was it
2 to like just walk up and hit this guy or just like,
3 "Hey, what's up" and just give him a little hit?
4 A I don't know why she felt that
5 comfortable with going to hit him. Like, the
6 following week, some people would say that, you
7 know, this is what she does, but that would happen
8 on campus. It had never been reported to me.
9 Q Okay. So maybe it was -- you don't think
10 there was anger involved on her end? You were
11 watching this. Right?
12 A With the child. But also, she had been
13 with us for a short period, you know. We're not
14 fully aware of their mental-health status sometimes
15 when they come. So we had minimal history on her.
16 Q Okay. And then he responded, you think,
17 out of reflex?
18 A I believe he could have been upset, you
19 know.
20 Q Did he storm out of the room immediately
21 after?
22 A No.
23 Q No? What did he do?
24 A He still kind of just was a little
25 relaxed.

223
1 Q After he got hit a couple of times, he
2 was still relaxed?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Did he have anything else his hand?
5 A I believe he may have had a drink. I'm
6 not positively sure.
8 EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. CANASI:
10 Q Can you please point to who you are in
11 there in that video, where you're at?
12 A (Indicating.)
13 Q That's you?
14 A Correct.
15 Q I don't mean any disrespect by this,
16 ma'am, but that person has Caucasian arms.
17 A Who? This person?
18 Q Yes, unless my vision is completely off.
19 MS. HOSLER: Can we replay the video?
20 MR. CANASI: Can you redo that video?
21 MS. CICHON: Have you seen the video
22 prior to today?
23 THE WITNESS: I don't know if I saw this.
24 Yes.
25 (Playing video.)

224
1 BY MR. CANASI:
2 Q That's you --
3 A Correct.
4 Q -- right there walking up with the phone
5 in your hand?
6 A Correct.
7 MR. CANASI: That's the light reflection
8 there, I guess.
9 MS. BELL: So while we have this playing,
10 I've got a question.
11 EXAMINATION
12 BY MS. BELL:
13 Q In your career prior to this incident,
14 have you witnessed an adult hit a child --
15 A No.
16 Q -- in your profession? You've not
17 witnessed it?
18 A No.
19 Q But you are aware of the policies in
20 place on the steps to take when you do witness
21 abuse. Is that correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Did you follow those policies?
24 A I did call and report.
25 Q Immediately?

225
1 A No, I didn't call it immediately.
2 Q So did you follow the policies?
3 A If that's what the policy says, no, I did
4 not.
5 Q What, if any, actions were taken against
6 you for not following this policy which is in place
7 or these policies that are in place to protect the
8 children?
9 A Yes, I was given a warning.
10 Q A warning?
11 A (Moves head up and down.)
12 Q Okay. Did you go to the Strawberry
13 Festival the next day?
14 A No.
15 Q Were you aware that Mr. Lawson was going
16 to the Strawberry Festival with the children the
17 next day?
18 A No, not at all.
19 Q In your transcript, Page 12, Line 9, you
20 say -- let me go back. I'm trying to figure out.
21 You asked someone to remove the child. Who did you
22 ask?
23 A Ms. Tate.
24 Q Can we go back to the video, and can you
25 show me where, at what point you're asking Ms. Tate

226
1 to remove the child?
2 EXAMINATION
3 BY MS. HOSLER:
4 Q While you're at it, can you identify at
5 what point Ms. Tate tells you that she'll handle
6 this?
7 A She kind of just brushed past me and was
8 walking.
9 Q So she didn't actually say, "Hey, I'll
10 handle this." You just kind of assumed that's what
11 she was doing?
12 A No, I didn't assume.
13 EXAMINATION
14 BY MS. BELL:
15 Q That's not in your transcript. You don't
16 say anything about Ms. Tate saying she's going to
17 handle it in your transcript.
18 A And I told Mr. Duckworth, like I said, I
19 probably didn't remember everything, every detail in
20 that hour that he was interviewing me.
21 EXAMINATION
22 BY MS. HOSLER:
23 Q That's fine. But while you look at the
24 video, can you identify at what point she expressed
25 to you that she would handle this?

227
1 A I guess -- like I said, she kind of
2 walked and brushed past me.
3 (Playing video.)
4 THE WITNESS: At that time.
5 BY MS. HOSLER:
6 Q She doesn't speak with you.
7 MS. BELL: Yeah, that doesn't look like
8 she interacts with you.
9 A No, because she was whispering and
10 walking right by me. If there was sound, then you
11 would be able to hear her.
12 EXAMINATION
13 BY MS. CICHON:
14 Q So when she passed by you right in that
15 moment, she said, "I'll take care of it"?
16 A Yes. She was kind of whispering because
17 she said she was going to talk to him.
18 MS. BELL: Can we rewind, please?
19 EXAMINATION
20 BY MS. BELL:
21 Q What I would like to see is what
22 direction you were facing when the slaps happened
23 and then your body language when you are, it
24 appears, clearly looking at Mr. -- so where are you
25 looking right there? I thought you heard the slap.

228
1 MS. HOSLER: She said she witnessed it.
2 (Playing video.)
3 Q Now look. Watch your body language here.
4 You look at your phone.
5 A No. I'm not looking at my phone.
6 Q Then right there, you prop up on the
7 chair. So if you just witnessed a child being
8 abused by a senior staff member, that just seems --
9 that's not the reaction I would expect --
10 MS. HOSLER: From a person in a
11 leadership role.
12 BY MS. BELL:
13 Q And then you said that you asked Ms. Tate
14 to remove the child. So at what point did you ask
15 Ms. Tate to remove the child? I don't think I saw
16 that part. Also, you said that you go over and you
17 told the child to move away, the child was using
18 profane language. But the child is already gone.
19 A No. There was an incident that -- well,
20 it's not an incident, but there was some commotion
21 by the door afterwards, after this happened.
22 Q That's not what the testimony says,
23 though. That's not what the transcripts says.
24 A Well, today on this day, I can't tell
25 you, but I know under oath that something else

229
1 happened at the door. There was some commotion
2 going on with that child again.
3 Q You also said that Ms. Tate said -- and I
4 quote -- in your ear that she would take care of it?
5 A She brushed past me, and she said it.
6 MS. BELL: Can we see that brush again?
7 Uh-huh.
8 Q So you thought Ms. Tate was going to take
9 care of it. Did Ms. Tate see the incident?
10 A Yes, she did. That was her reason for
11 going over trying to talk to him.
12 Q That's not what the transcript says. We
13 haven't heard from Ms. Tate, but that's not what the
14 transcript says. So did Ms. Tate tell you that she
15 saw it?
16 A Yes.
17 Q That's not in your transcript. You also
18 said that Mr. Lawson -- and this is on Page 13, Line
19 15 -- that he pushes the minor. And then you say
20 you don't have a clear view. So I'm watching right
21 here.
22 A He grabbed her arm, probably so he
23 wouldn't get slapped again, and pushed her off.
24 EXAMINATION
25 BY MS. HOSLER:

230
1 Q What are you doing on your phone? I
2 mean, the light is on. It looks like maybe you were
3 just using it, like maybe you just sent a text or
4 you're waiting for a text.
5 A No. I never sent a text on that day.
6 Q Okay. I mean, the phone is lit up
7 like --
8 A It's possible I had pants on that didn't
9 have a pocket. I'm not sure
10 Q You've got the phone in your hand the
11 whole time. This child is getting hit and you're in
12 a caretaking role, you're so shocked by this
13 incident, but yet you're just hanging out with the
14 phone, the phone is so important to you. Meanwhile,
15 there's a company policy whereby you're not supposed
16 to have a phone while on duty. I'm having a hard
17 time with that, ma'am.
18 EXAMINATION
19 BY MS. BELL:
20 Q And also on Line 12: So I said -- and I
21 quote, the child needs to be removed. And she, Ms.
22 Tate, just kind of went back to the other side. At
23 what point -- I'd like to see where you're talking
24 to Ms. Tate in this video.
25 A If it's not near that camera, then you're

231
1 not going to see it. I talked to her afterwards
2 also.
3 Q So a child is abused, so just probably
4 from me to you, that close, and you make no motion
5 like, "Oh, my gosh"?
6 A No, absolutely not.
7 Q As a matter of fact, you lean on the
8 chair and kind of move about with your phone. Ms.
9 Tate walks by. In your transcript you say she said
10 in your ear. She does not lean over to you.
11 A Okay. Well, if it's not directly in my
12 ear, I'm saying she did say something when she
13 walked past me.
14 MS. BELL: All right. Okay.
15 EXAMINATION
16 BY MS. HOSLER:
17 Q I'm also very surprised that, not only
18 are you paid caretakers of these children, you're
19 also adults and this thirteen-year-old girl is
20 struck in the face and there are three adults, at
21 least, that we can see on camera in the room and
22 nobody runs over to her. Why?
23 A In certain instances, depending upon the
24 child, if you create an uproar, so will the kids.
25 Q It's not an uproar. It's like, "Hey, are

232
1 you okay?"
2 A No.
3 EXAMINATION
4 BY MS. BELL:
5 Q Isn't your policy to immediately
6 intervene, do the NAPPI stuff, separate the two?
7 You talk about how you said they need to be
8 separated.
9 A Yes.
10 Q Yet none of that happened?
11 A That's what Mr. Lawson should have done
12 so she wouldn't get close to his face.
13 Q If he was the aggressor, if he smacked
14 her, whose job was it to go over and say, "Mr.
15 Lawson, you need to step outside. Child, are you
16 okay?" Whose job was that?
17 A Well, I'm thinking with the staff near
18 him, that would be the appropriate thing to do.
19 Q I believe you're the closest one to him.
20 When the incident happens, Ms. Tate is not even in
21 the frame. Ms. Simmons is sitting at the end of the
22 bar and you're kind of right there in the middle of
23 the room?
24 A Right. And I see what's going on, again,
25 monitoring the children. And I would expect her as

233
1 a staff also to go intervene.
2 Q But you don't expect the same from
3 yourself? Is that your testimony?
4 A No. I'm just saying that I would never
5 cause an uproar because that's what happens, all my
6 children will begin to get in an uproar and then the
7 whole environment will be chaos, not to say that I
8 shouldn't.
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY MS. HOSLER:
11 Q But then the three of you don't even get
12 together afterwards, the adults, and say, "Hey, did
13 you see that? We've got to do something, like what
14 should we do? Should we call that 1-900 number?
15 Should we call Rhonda?" Nobody has that discussion.
16 A No, we do not have a discussion.
17 Q You're paid employees. You're paid to
18 take care of these children.
19 A Cynthia and I went back to the cottage
20 with children, and that was not a discussion to have
21 around the children at the time.
22 Q Not around children, but not even after
23 the children go off. I'm just surprised. I get
24 what you're saying. I understand your perspective,
25 but I'm just surprised.

234
1 EXAMINATION
2 BY MS. BELL:
3 Q Did you witness Mr. Lawson come into the
4 kitchen and speak with Ms. Simmons?
5 A No. When I was in the kitchen, he was in
6 the kitchen.
7 Q So you and Mr. Lawson were in the kitchen
8 but not with Ms. Simmons present. Is that right?
9 A No, I was in and out, I believe. I'm not
10 sure.
11 Q Were the three of you in the kitchen
12 together?
13 A I can't recall to this date. But I know
14 when I went in the kitchen to get things to
15 clean up, he was in the kitchen only for a few
16 minutes.
17 EXAMINATION
18 BY MS. HOSLER:
19 Q Could it be that you didn't see what you
20 think you saw?
21 A No.
22 MS. HOSLER: Okay.
23 EXAMINATION
24 BY MS. CICHON:
25 Q Can you describe the severity of the hit?

235
1 So a Level 10 would be the most severe abuse of an
2 adult smacking a child across the face, and a
3 Level 1 would be no harm to a child. Where would
4 you rank the incident that you saw that night?
5 A I can't say what would be the severity
6 because everyone may think differently on how severe
7 something is.
8 Q You work with children.
9 A I'm sorry?
10 Q You work with children for a living. So
11 in your professional opinion, where would you rank
12 the incident?
13 A I will say her face moved, but it didn't
14 knock her to the ground.
15 Q Give me a number, 10 is the most the most
16 severe abuse you've ever seen, and 1 is minimal.
17 A I can't say that.
18 Q If a child was having a medical emergency
19 at that party -- so let's say a kid went into
20 cardiac arrest, dropped to the floor. Where would
21 you rank that? A 10 is severe, you have to take
22 action, and 1 is, they're perfectly healthy.
23 A We would probably go by what type of
24 symptoms the child has.
25 Q So they dropped to the floor, they need

236
1 immediate medical attention. What level of severity
2 would you rank that?
3 A Depending if they're conscious or
4 unconscious, if they're epileptic. It's all, you
5 know, different.
6 Q What you would be the protocol from your
7 perspective if a child did collapse to the floor and
8 needed medical attention? What would be the
9 protocol with your peers?
10 A I know generally our staff, they may call
11 the nurse if they need to or they will call 911.
12 Q Do you believe the abuse was that severe
13 that a call should have been made either to a
14 superior or to an abuse hotline or to somebody to
15 notify them that there was a severe incident that
16 just happened tonight on shift?
17 A Correct.
18 Q So it should have happened, but no one
19 did it?
20 A Not until Monday.
21 MR. CANASI: Any other questions from any
22 other board members? Mr. Lawson, do you have
23 any more questions?
25 MS. HOSLER: I do have one question of

237
1 you, Mr. Lawson. On the video, are you able to
2 identify Ms. Veale? Is she, in fact, the woman
3 wearing the white T-shirt?
5 MR. ZINOBER: Thank you for your
6 testimony. You can go back into the witness
7 room.
8 MR. CANASI: Can we let this woman go
9 home?
10 MS. GREEN: Yes. You're free.
11 MR. ZINOBER: You're released to go home.
12 Any more witnesses?
13 MS. GREEN: Beverly Waldron.
14 * * * * * * * * *
15 BEVERLY WALDRON,
20 BY MS. GREEN:
21 Q Please state your full name and spell it
22 for the record.
23 A Beverly Waldron, B-e-v-e-r-l-y
24 W-a-l-d-r-o-n.
25 Q What is your title?

238
1 A I'm director of human resources for the
2 departments under the county administrator.
3 Q How long have you worked for Hillsborough
4 County?
5 A It will be three on January 8th.
6 Q Because we're really tight on time,
7 please quickly describe your work history that's
8 relevant for the board members.
9 A I have 38 years of human resources
10 experience. I spent time with Louisiana State Civil
11 Service, then 31 years with Pinellas County merit
12 system and now with Hillsborough County.
13 Q Are you familiar with the disciplinary
14 matter which has led to this hearing regarding Tre
15 Lawson's dismissal?
16 A Yes, I am.
17 Q Did you sign this form dismissing Mr.
18 Lawson?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q Why was he dismissed?
21 A Because of the actions that he took in
22 striking or attempting to strike a child who was
23 under his care.
24 Q Please tell the board member what steps
25 you took to familiarize yourself with the matter

239
1 prior to signing that form dismissing him.
2 A I reviewed the CS Form 5, the statement
3 of charges. I watched the video a number of times.
4 I discussed the matter with Carl Harness, who was
5 over this department.
6 Q How many times did you review the video?
7 A Probably 15 or 20.
8 Q Has Dan Duckworth worked for HR?
9 A Yes, he did.
10 Q Was there a completed investigation by
11 Mr. Duckworth available to you?
12 A I would assume so. I know that it was
13 handled by a couple of people.
14 Q But standing here today, you have no idea
15 whether or not there's a completed investigation
16 that you reviewed?
17 A No. I did not review his investigation.
18 As the discipline administrator, I try and keep
19 myself separate so that I do not become biased with
20 the things going on with the investigation. I
21 review the statement of charges, and if I need
22 additional information, I seek it.
23 Q Were you aware that Mr. Lawson had
24 previously been fired, appealed to the civil service
25 board and got his job back?

240
1 A Yes. But I have no idea what the charges
2 were.
3 Q Has Mr. Duckworth been separated from
4 employment with the county?
5 A Yes, he has.
6 Q When did that happen and why?
7 A It happened, I believe, in early June,
8 I'm not sure of the exact date. I have 63
9 employees. Mr. Duckworth was hired as a partner. A
10 partner is a high-performing level.
11 We have both specialists and partners
12 within the talent management section. After Mr.
13 Duckworth was working for us for several months, we
14 discovered that his skillset fit better with the
15 specialist and not the partner.
16 Q So he didn't have the qualifications to
17 do the job?
18 A He did not have, and he was not
19 interested in moving down to the lower level.
20 Q The incident that led to Mr. Lawson's
21 dismissal happened on March 3rd. Is that correct?
23 Q When was he dismissed?
24 A I signed it in July. I don't remember
25 the specific date, and I don't have the documents in

241
1 front of me.
2 Q Why such a delay?
3 A Good question. I'm not sure. I know
4 that there was a delay in getting the report from
5 the state. I also know that we have put in place
6 tracking systems to prevent these types of delays in
7 the future.
8 Q Was Mr. Lawson provided with employment
9 and a paycheck during the pendency of that delay?
10 A Yes, he was.
11 Q Mr. Lawson says he didn't hit the child,
12 he flinched at her. Did you consider Mr. Lawson's
13 denial before you dismissed him?
14 A Yes, I did. I listened to the PDH, the
15 tape of his PDH. For me, swinging at the child
16 sends the same message to those the children and to
17 the staff the same as actually making contact. You
18 cannot perpetuate the violence or the attempt at
19 violence regardless of the provocation.
22 BY MR. LAWSON:
23 Q Ms. Waldron, when did you receive the
24 statement of charges? Do you recall?
25 A I believe it was three days. I received

242
1 it when they were preparing your PDH and noticing
2 you.
3 Q My PDH was July 26th. So it was probably
4 a little bit before then?
5 A Yes, when they were scheduling your
6 appointment.
7 Q Okay. The case was closed by CPI April
8 26, the case was closed in April, but they're saying
9 they were waiting on a report from the state. Is
10 that a CPI report?
11 A Yes, it is.
12 Q And it took approximately three months
13 for you all to receive that report?
14 A My understanding was they were under the
15 impression that the state would forward the report
16 to them. They were unaware that they needed to
17 reach out to obtain the report.
18 Q They were unaware. Okay. When did Mr.
19 Duckworth resign again?
20 A I cannot tell you his last date of
21 employment without looking in Oracle.
22 Q You said it was in June?
23 A I believe that was his last date.
24 Q With the CPI investigation concluding in
25 April, that meant that his investigation was

243
1 completed prior to him leaving. So do you know if
2 there was any follow-up with him about the case?
3 A No, sir, I do not.
4 MR. LAWSON: Okay. No further questions.
5 EXAMINATION
6 BY MS. HOSLER:
7 Q Ma'am, when the case was closed by CPI,
8 was your agency or office notified of the closure
9 immediately?
11 Q How did you all become aware of the
12 closure?
13 A I believe they eventually reached out to
14 see what the status was.
15 Q At that time, were they informed of the
16 disposition?
17 A I have no idea.
18 Q Then they waited for three months for the
19 report to come to them. And then one day somebody
20 decided, "Oh, maybe we should call them again," and
21 they discovered that the report has to be requested.
22 Is that how it went?
23 I cannot -- I would have to ask my staff.
25 EXAMINATION

244
1 BY MS. BELL:
2 Q When Mr. Duckworth is doing interviews --
3 we heard the audio -- he introduces himself, says
4 the time, "This is recording," blah, blah, blah.
5 They go through the interview, and at the end, he
6 says, "At this time, I'm going to stop the
7 recording." Is it policy to stop the recording
8 without stating such during the interview?
9 A I'm sorry. I don't understand the
10 question.
11 Q So I'm Mr. Duckworth, I'm interviewing
12 you on the recorder. And during the process of the
13 interview, I stop the recording, I talk to you,
14 maybe ask you a question, maybe rephrase my question
15 and then start recording again. Is that the way --
16 A It's generally noted that, "I'm stopping
17 the recording," that, "I am restarting the
18 recording."
19 Q Would you be surprised to hear that we
20 just got testimony that Mr. Duckworth several times
21 during of the course of his interview with Ms. Veale
22 stopped and started the recording without any
23 indication either in the transcripts or in the
24 recording?
25 A Yes, I would.

245
1 Q Yes, you would?
2 A That is not our practice, and that is not
3 the policy that our investigators are to use during
4 their interviews.
5 Q Speaking of policies, if this agency has
6 employees who blatantly disregard policies that put
7 children in harm's way or do not protect children,
8 what do you think the outcome of that would be?
9 What would be maybe the punishment?
10 A It would depend on the action.
11 Q How about inaction? So if the policy
12 clearly states in Exhibit 17 about abuse reporting
13 -- so you've got abuse reporting, you've got the
14 intervention techniques and so forth.
15 So if I'm one of your employees for this
16 agency and I do not follow the policy that protects
17 a child from being abused and I do not follow the
18 policy of reporting that abuse that's very clearly
19 spelled out in these policies, what might I expect
20 the repercussions to be on me as an employee?
21 A I would assume that discipline of some
22 form, from area of concern to written to suspension.
23 Q What's area of concern?
24 A It is a coaching and counseling. It is
25 documentation. It is the first step of discipline

246
1 indicating that you have not performed appropriately
2 and it is documented.
3 Q We were told that coaching was provided
4 but that it was not documented. Would that be
5 against policy to not document that coaching?
6 A It was not documented in any way?
7 Q Apparently.
8 A It would depend. Some coaching is not
9 documented, it is strictly coaching. But if it was
10 an area of concern, it would be documented.
11 Q Interesting. I would assume that an
12 employee -- two employees who witness a child be
13 smacked across the face and not report, I would
14 assume that would be kind of an egregious violation.
15 A I would think that some form of
16 discipline would be taken with those employees.
17 EXAMINATION
18 BY MS. HOSLER:
19 Q Were you involved in disciplinary action
20 involving Ms. Veale and the other employee?
21 A No, ma'am. I take -- my action comes in
22 if someone is issued a CS Form 5.
23 Q That's when you step in?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Then outside of the issuance of a CS Form

247
1 5, who is in charge of disciplinary action
2 otherwise?
3 A We have a division within our department
4 that handles discipline items.
5 Q You mentioned Mr. Lawson had previously
6 been terminated?
7 A No. I was asked a question as whether or
8 not if I knew he had been previously terminated.
9 Q Okay. You acknowledged having knowledge?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Do you think that plus the concern that a
12 child was struck played any part in his termination
13 this time around?
14 A I have no idea what he was charged with
15 before.
16 Q Uh-huh.
17 A The only reason I know he was charged
18 before is, we were doing research on the appeals
19 that have been before this board and the disposition
20 of those.
21 Q Go ahead.
22 A It had no part whatsoever in the
23 discipline that I rendered.
24 Q I understand. Did you make that
25 discovery after the termination this time around or

248
1 before?
2 A What discovery?
3 Q That he had previously been charged.
4 A I discovered that approximately -- when
5 did we do the research? Probably in -- I'm having
6 to recollect, this will be a rough guesstimate. It
7 was when we were working on our budget presentation,
8 which would have been January or February.
9 Q So that was prior to this incident?
10 A Yes.
11 MS. HOSLER: Okay. Thank you.
12 MR. CANASI: Any other questions from any
13 other board members?
14 MR. ZINOBER: Is this witness excused?
15 MS. GREEN: How much time do I have?
16 MR. GUERRERO: 14 minutes, 24 seconds.
17 MS. GREEN: Yes.
18 MR. ZINOBER: Thank you, Ms. Waldron, you
19 may go home and go to sleep.
21 MR. CANASI: How about your other
22 witnesses?
23 MS. GREEN: They can be excused as well.
24 MR. ZINOBER: We have an official that
25 will bear that message?

249
1 MS. GREEN: I have one more witness to
2 call, JoAnn Rollins.
3 MS. ZINOBER: Ms, Rollins, would you
4 spell your first name?
5 MS. ROLLINS: My first name is JoAnn,
6 J-o-A-n-n, last name Rollins, R-o-l-l-i-n-s.
7 MR. ZINOBER: Thank you, your witness.
8 (Mr. Guerrero administers oath.)
9 * * * * * * * * *
10 JOANN ROLLINS,
15 BY MS. GREEN:
16 Q Were you present on the evening of March
17 3rd at Lake Mag?
18 A No, I was not.
19 Q How did you learn about Mr. Lawson's
20 conduct?
21 A It was reported to my me by Ms. Rhonda
22 Rhodes.
23 Q After you learned about his conduct, did
24 you eventually determine that some form of
25 disciplinary action was in order?

250
1 A Yes. After I had them pull the video so
2 I could take a look at it, I did. I made a phone
3 call to Mr. Harness. I also made a phone call to
4 HR. I -- Ms. Rhodes and I discussed the situation.
5 I made the final determination that HR
6 should handle the case. I did not want the staff to
7 be involved in that particular process because I did
8 not want it to be conceived as we were biased, and
9 we already had a history with Mr. Lawson, and so I
10 wanted an objective group of individuals to come in
11 and interview the staff.
12 Q Did you have any concern about whether
13 CPI was biased?
14 A No concerns about CPI.
15 Q Did you consider Mr. Lawson's response to
16 the charges against him when you -- let me back up.
17 Did you make any recommendation
18 ultimately on what should happen with Mr. Lawson's
19 employment?
20 A I did. After speaking to all parties
21 involved, my supervisor, HR, our clinical person,
22 the mere fact that we're trying to establish a
23 therapeutic environment. And he's in a leadership
24 capacity, so he sets the tone and the pace as far as
25 what is expected on the campus.

251
1 The reason you saw the confusion of the
2 staff is because he's a leader. He was in charge.
3 What do you do? Staff become fearful, children
4 become fearful, yes. And tonight you guys are going
5 to make a very important decision. You just have to
6 take it mind --
7 MR. ZINOBER: Ms. Rollins, you're there
8 to answer questions, not to make closing
9 argument.
10 A I'm sorry.
11 Q Did you consider Mr. Lawson's response to
12 the charges against him before you determined he
13 should be dismissed?
14 A There was some consideration, yes. I was
15 kind of hoping he would say, "It's on video, I did
16 it, I'm sorry. Can we work something out? I'll go
17 and get counseling. I'll go and talk to EAP." He
18 flat out denied it with witnesses viewing the video
19 and in the video viewing what happened.
23 BY MR. LAWSON:
24 Q Ms. Rollins, you said that you all passed
25 it down to HR to investigate the case. Correct?

252
2 Q HR, Mr. Duckworth, completed his
3 investigation, passed it on to Mr. Gregory, who, in
4 turn, eventually completed his investigation on
5 April 26 not substantiated, no interventions needed.
6 What steps did you take at that time after CPI
7 closed the case as not substantiated?
8 MS. GREEN: Objection. That question
9 included testimony that was inaccurate or not
10 in evidence. Do you want me to continue about
11 why I'm objecting?
12 MR. ZINOBER: I don't understand the
13 basis for your objection, so why don't you
14 explain it?
15 MS. GREEN: Sure. Mr. Lawson
16 inaccurately stated the evidence that's in the
17 record. He indicated that Mr. Duckworth
18 finished his investigation and gave it to CPI
19 Gregory, and that's not in evidence.
20 MS. BELL: It kind of looks like it.
21 MS. GREEN: They gave the investigation
22 to Gregory? No.
23 MS. BELL: Oh, not that he gave it to
24 him, that he completed it.
25 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Lawson, it's probably

253
1 preferable to ask a question as to what this
2 witness knows or remembers instead of asking
3 leading questions that may misstate the record.
4 MR. LAWSON: Okay. Understood.
5 BY MR. LAWSON:
6 Q After you received the closed
7 investigation from CPI, what steps did you take?
8 A The actual report was available to our
9 agency on June 25th. I had to make some
10 arrangements because there are only two individuals
11 in our agency that can pick up the report. The
12 actions we took, we were waiting for the individual
13 to pick up the report and bring it to us, a member
14 from HR. We all sat down and read the report, and
15 at that point, we decided to move forward with the
16 disciplinary actions.
17 Q So I read the report which states that it
18 appears as if I struck the kid. It never gives a
19 definitive answer saying I did. What prompted you
20 to decide that we should go toward termination?
21 A What prompted me is that I'm fully aware
22 that there are different protocols and different
23 standards that need to be established by different
24 agencies. So, for instance, the CPI, his job is to
25 determine whether there are any injuries, and then

254
1 he makes the decision whether abuse takes place.
2 As far as law enforcement, they determine
3 whether or not a criminal act has taken place. They
4 bowed out of that. They said no criminal act had
5 taken place. My role as the department director is
6 to determine whether or not we are providing the
7 proper, correct therapeutic care for the children.
8 So my criterion is totally different from
9 a CPI, our law enforcement, the attorneys' office,
10 the appeal board. My job is to ensure that those
11 children are safe and they're in a stable
12 environment. We have multiple policies on how to
13 care for children. Not my policies, experts have
14 written those policies, they're not mine. We have a
15 therapeutic approach. They're experts' therapeutic
16 approaches that we're using. There's nothing in any
17 textbook that says it's okay to strike a child.
18 There's nothing.
19 And if you strike a child, then the
20 question becomes, since you're a leader, "Can I
21 strike a child?" That's what the staff is going to
22 say, "Oh, well, he got away with it."
23 The children are going to say, "Am I safe
24 because Mr. Tre hits people and so, oh, now the
25 staff can hit people?" So I have to look at what's

255
1 the best alternative for the environment that I am
2 supposed to be responsible for. I have to look at
3 my criteria, does the action or behavior violate
4 policy, procedure or the therapeutic model that we
5 are using.
6 My second question, the behavior is
7 harmful mentally, emotionally or physically to the
8 child, the staff or the campus community? And the
9 answer is yes, yes, yes. Children, staff and the
10 community. You had your favorite child, who was
11 going to fight the child. You had your staff, who
12 you are supervising --
13 Q Is that confirmed?
14 A It was part of this conversation.
15 Q I understand that there was a statement
16 that someone made. Was that confirmed?
17 A The staff said that they were in shock.
18 Q The same staff that had contradictory
19 statements?
20 A Absolutely. But you know what? They
21 didn't know what to do because you were in charge,
22 you were in charge.
23 Q Ms. Rollins --
24 A The last question, if I may. You asked
25 me what my consideration would be, what made me move

256
1 to what -- my last question: Is there a plausible
2 explanation or justification for the behavior,
3 action or violation that can be explained to a
4 parent of a youth, to the Board of County
5 Commissioners and/or to the media. I don't have an
6 explanation for a staff slapping a child. And if it
7 were your children, would it be okay?
8 Q Understood. My next question, Ms.
9 Rollins --
10 A Yes.
11 Q -- you watched the video, we all watched
12 the video. You said I struck a child is perception.
13 How can you use your perception as a definitive
14 outcome or outlook of what happened?
15 A You're going to call it a perception.
16 I'm going to say what I saw on the video.
17 Q Which is a perception. Correct?
18 A It could be a perception, but it's not my
19 only perception. You have eyewitnesses and you have
20 a CPI that said the strike did occur. And let's say
21 this, sir. If the strike didn't occur, you made an
22 action that looks as though you were going to strike
23 her. Let's just say --
24 Q My hand never --
25 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Lawson, she really

257
1 needs to be allowed to finish her answer.
2 MR. LAWSON: I apologize.
3 THE WITNESS: Let's just say you didn't
4 strike her, you didn't make contact. But on
5 the picture on the video, it appears that you
6 made an action, a movement toward her to do
7 something to her that would make her flinch.
8 Q Okay. You said if I would have came to
9 you and admitted it. Why would I admit? Why you
10 expect someone to admit something that they didn't
11 do?
12 A I can only tell you what I witnessed,
13 what I saw on the video and what I've experienced in
14 this court and the testimonies I've read. This
15 happened a little over seven months ago. What's
16 most definitive, sir, the video hasn't changed.
17 It doesn't show the whole cafeteria. It
18 doesn't show all of the action of the cafeteria, but
19 it shows you and your interactions with the young
20 lady. So I told you I had three questions that I
21 had to ask myself. If a parent had seen that video
22 and that child had gone home and said, "I got hit"
23 and I had to show that video to the parent, I don't
24 have an explanation for a parent to say, "You know,
25 we hit the kids all the time," you know, "They were

258
1 just horseplaying."
2 You know our policies and procedures say
3 no horseplaying. Our policies and procedures say we
4 do no harm. We don't strike children. We don't
5 even pretend to strike them. We don't, we don't.
6 Q You said if a kid goes home and tells
7 their parents, "I was struck" and the parents see
8 this video --
9 A Um-hum.
10 Q -- this kid also told you that she has
11 not been slapped that night or any other night by
12 any staff?
13 A I know. But she did tell the guardian ad
14 litem that you slapped her.
15 Q I'm sure she --
16 A And she trusted her guardian ad litem. A
17 stranger, a police officer, I can see her not
18 repeating that to them because she didn't know them.
19 Q I understand, once again, your perception
20 is that I hit her. I didn't. But when you look at
21 the video, you may feel that you see something. You
22 said I made a motion. My hand never came up. You
23 just see a motion? How can you determine that it's
24 just what you think it is?
25 A The motion caused her to move away from

259
1 whatever your motion was. If you didn't hit her,
2 she thought that you were going to. I have to make
3 the decision based on what's best for the campus as
4 a whole and what's best for the child. If she
5 thought she was going to be hit, she moved, she
6 moved. She moved completely out of the way.
7 If you didn't hit her, she still moved.
8 That caused me to believe that you struck her. From
9 what I can see on the video, in my opinion, you
10 struck her. That's what I saw on the video. And
11 everybody else has their opinion. I can only say
12 what I saw.
13 If I take everything away, the staff -- I
14 never questioned one staff person, never interviewed
15 them, never had a conversation with them, not even
16 with the children. If we do nothing else, the
17 guardian ad litem said she talked to that child and
18 that child said she was struck.
19 The CPI said he saw the video. He said
20 that the child was struck. You guys have a lot --
21 they have a lot to consider here. But as the
22 director of Children's Services, my role is to look
23 at the policies and procedures and see if we have
24 provided the proper care for this child from a
25 therapeutic environment -- for a therapeutic

260
1 environment, using trauma-informed care, we didn't
2 do the right thing by this child, we just didn't, we
3 didn't.
4 And I don't have a plausible excuse. She
5 doesn't have a parent to advocate for her. But I
6 don't have an excuse to tell a parent. And if the
7 parent said, "It looked like he struck at her" --
8 MR. ZINOBER: Ms. Rollins, I think we're
9 stringing a long way off of the question.
10 THE WITNESS: Okay. The bottom line, I
11 saw what I saw. I considered the evidence and
12 the information. As the director, I have a
13 responsibility to the children and to ensure a
14 safe campus.
17 EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. CANASI:
19 Q I think you're about the most credible
20 witness we've had tonight.
21 MS. HOSLER: Absolutely.
22 Q A couple of things. I believe that LG
23 did tell the CPI investigator that she was not hit.
24 A No.
25 Q Is that correct?

261
1 A The CPI investigator? Yes, which would
2 be logical. He's a stranger.
3 Q I guess what I'm bothered by more than
4 anything is that, when you look at this video -- the
5 second most important, the second thing I'm most
6 bothered by, there was a clear eyewitness there that
7 was another child that was never questioned, was
8 never asked, nothing, clear eyewitness right there
9 front and center. Do we have any statements from
10 that child at all?
11 A If I may, we took the lead of HR. I
12 didn't want to be conceived or perceived as tainting
13 information or evidence, so we lead took the lead
14 with what HR decided to do. But the child in
15 question that witnessed everything, she's called
16 baby girl, that's the same child that wanted to
17 fight the child that hit him. So you wouldn't have
18 gotten a very objective testimony from her.
19 MS. BELL: With all due respect, ma'am, I
20 don't know that we got objective testimony from
21 a few folks.
22 THE WITNESS: Maybe. Okay.
23 BY MR. CANASI:
24 Q I will tell you, Ms. Rollins -- I'm
25 coming away from this hearing tonight, no matter

262
1 what the outcome of this hearing is, I'm coming
2 away, once again, very troubled by what's going on
3 in that facility because you've got two employees
4 there that if I were in charge, they'd be fired,
5 walking around holding the phone, in lala land,
6 another one sitting there, doesn't even get up when
7 they think a child has been struck in the face. I'm
8 extremely bothered by that.
9 And I guess probably one of the things
10 that this board is struggling with is that are we
11 dealing with a scapegoat, you know. And those
12 cameras, I will tell you, are not very good. I
13 mean, the resolution is terrible. I happened to
14 think when I got up close and personal with that
15 video that there was a reflex, it was a reflex, you
16 know.
17 I mean, if I'm sitting and Ernie raises
18 his hand real quick like that, I'm going to, you
19 know, it's just a natural reaction. You know, there
20 are people that just don't like to be touched in the
21 face. I happen to be one of them. If somebody is
22 -- I'm going to -- whatever.
23 So I think that you have a much bigger
24 issue here than whether or not this gentleman struck
25 that child in the face. There's been erratic

263
1 testimony from a couple of witnesses. We had the
2 CPI investigator here. Even when he saw the video,
3 he realized that one of the witnesses was not a
4 credible witness after he saw that video.
5 I mean, so far, the only thing that I can
6 find in my mind -- two things that I can find in my
7 mind that Mr. Lawson is guilty of is a perceived
8 reaction that he probably should not have done and
9 the fact that he turns his name tag around, okay,
10 which, by the way, that's not right.
11 So, you know, I would hope that -- and
12 if I have to have another visit and another
13 conversation with Mr. Harness since I am a neighbor
14 over there, I would hope that the shortcomings that
15 we saw in that individual tonight are addressed and
16 they are addressed very strongly because you have to
17 admit, ma'am, there's issues there.
18 A Yes. And there's issues there, and
19 there's a supervisor who's supervising, and he could
20 have said, "Put your cell phones away. I need you
21 all to pay attention to the children. You're not in
22 the areas of the particular places that you're
23 supposed to be to monitor the children."
24 MR. CANASI: I agree with you.
25 THE WITNESS: When the child walked up to

264
1 her, he should have immediately -- as soon as
2 he got that first slap, he should have done
3 this and said, "No, no, no, no." He can put
4 her arms down, but he should have immediately
5 put her arms down, not flinch at her like he's
6 going to hit her too.
7 The chaos you saw is the chaos he was
8 supervising. That's what you saw. He was the
9 supervisor, he was the individual who was in
10 charge that night.
11 Q But unfortunately, he's not here tonight
12 charged with lack of supervision?
13 A Absolutely. But he's definitely here for
14 violating every policy there is as it relates to
15 caring for children in a therapeutic community.
16 EXAMINATION
17 BY MS. BELL:
18 Q Ma'am, are you the one that told Mr.
19 Gregory that Mr. Lawson would not be terminated?
20 A Mr. Gregory and I had two conversations.
21 And he's correct, I did say, "We're not going to
22 terminate him until we get your report." There are
23 multiple reports we have to get. Mr. Gregory's
24 report was the only report remaining. We didn't get
25 the report until June 25th of this year. And he's

265
1 correct, I did say that. But I said, "We will not
2 terminate him until we get all of the reports, and
3 your report is the remaining report."
4 And I also spoke to another lady by the
5 name of Ms. Graham. It should be in your
6 transcripts. She was the CPI when this gentleman
7 was out on vacation. She and I had the exact same
8 conversation. You'll see it in the transcript.
9 Q Where are the kitchen recordings?
10 A The kitchen recordings?
11 Q Like the videos?
12 A Oh, my gosh. The campus probably has
13 about 150 cameras. You only saw one section of the
14 cafeteria. The cafeteria is a little bit larger
15 than what you think, and then there's a whole nother
16 kitchen and serving side completely.
17 I can tell you the videos -- if I may,
18 the videos originally would last maybe about 90
19 days, and after that it respins and starts a whole
20 new recording. Because HR handled the case, we
21 would not have known that we needed to pull the
22 information from the back of the kitchen unless they
23 had told us. We wouldn't have known because we
24 didn't take part in any of the interviews.
25 EXAMINATION

266
1 BY MR. TRICHLER:
2 Q Did the CPI report play any role in your
3 decision to terminate Mr. Lawson?
4 A The CPI when he indicated that he did
5 slap the child, there was physical contact, yes.
6 Q Did you have any concerns about your
7 other staff members who -- no one called the
8 hotline?
9 A I have been working with my staff for
10 over five years about accountability. There's a
11 community and a culture there. It runs 365 days a
12 year. It never shuts down.
13 Q I'm aware, I used to work for Children's
14 Services, so I have a little bit of information
15 about it.
16 A Okay. So basically them freezing because
17 he was in charge makes sense. It's not the right
18 thing to do, but it makes sense.
19 Q But they left, they left, they went home.
20 A They did.
21 Q They were in their cars, they don't call
22 supervisors, they do nothing.
23 A But you're on a campus that you are
24 sensitized to what --
25 Q I'm just asking if it caused you any

267
1 concern.
2 A It did, it did.
3 Q Good. That's what I was trying to get.
4 A But I wasn't surprised because I know
5 there's a culture that, you know, there are things
6 that are going on that I don't get to hear about
7 until it's third, fourth, fifth person.
8 But because he was in charge, I can see
9 the people who were under him like scared. I can
10 see that. It's not correct, but I can understand
11 it. And Ms. Veale did come and report it, but she
12 thought -- we do internal incident reports.
13 According to her, she thought that an internal
14 report was done.
15 If I may say, if you notice your
16 transcripts, the thought was to penalize the child
17 because the child had slapped him in his face. They
18 didn't know which way to go. They knew it needed to
19 be told, and they did tell it.
20 Q It's a training issue. Right?
21 A Absolutely -- it's not training. Can I
22 tell you what it is? It's character and morals.
23 That's the issue it is, character and morals.
24 That's what the issue is.
25 EXAMINATION

268
1 BY MS. BELL:
2 Q You've made a lot of allowances for the
3 folks we've listened to tonight
4 A No allowances.
5 Q It's kind of what it sounded like.
6 A He asked me was I concerned, I said yes.
7 MR. ZINOBER: We really need to have --
8 for the benefit of the transcript, if for no
9 other reason, we need to have one person
10 speaking at a time.
11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. He asked me if
12 I was concerned. I said yes. Am I surprised?
13 I've been working on the culture for five
14 years. I'm not surprised. But I'm grateful
15 that they did report it because I've been in
16 the system over 20-some-odd years. I remember
17 when they didn't report it.
18 BY MS. BELL:
19 Q You said earlier that your job is to
20 provide a safe and stable environment. If that's
21 your job, and we've witnessed all of this today and
22 you are not surprised at these actions, what does
23 that say to you?
24 A We're a work in progress. And I can tell
25 you what it says. I can tell you who we used to be

269
1 if you would like to hear about us. We had over
2 800-and-some-odd incidents.
3 MR. ZINOBER: Ms. Rollins, we really
4 can't do a historical perspective.
5 THE WITNESS: Okay, okay. But I can tell
6 you we've improved tremendously.
7 MR. CANASI: I would have to concur with
8 that because, as I stated earlier, I was given
9 the nickel tour there and met with some very
10 good people. I don't think that what we saw on
11 that video tonight is indicative of the entire
12 organization there. But it's not good.
13 THE WITNESS: I agree.
14 MR. CANASI: It's not good.
15 THE WITNESS: I agree.
16 MR. CANASI: You know, when you mix --
17 when you get a bowl of ice cream and you pour a
18 lot of Castrol oil in it, it's still going to
19 taste like Castrol oil, and that's the issue
20 that we're having here, I think.
21 I think Ernie and I may be the only
22 people that were on this board when we had a
23 slew of hearings from people that were
24 terminated out of this facility. I vividly
25 remember one of them was terminated because she

270
1 was having the girls give her pedicures. I
2 mean, it was crazy.
3 THE WITNESS: That's correct, on
4 Facebook.
5 MR. CANASI: I went postal on it, and I
6 was very concerned about what was going on over
7 there, especially because I live in the
8 neighborhood. I drive in front of that place
9 all the time, several times a week. It's on
10 the way to my son's house from my house. And
11 I'm concerned because my son is a neighbor
12 there too.
13 So, yes, I will tell you that it is a
14 work in progress. I will concur with Ms.
15 Rollins that it still needs work.
16 THE WITNESS: It does. But I want you
17 guys to keep in mind who was in charge that
18 night, please. And he had the authority to
19 change anything or make anybody do anything
20 that needed to be done that night.
21 MR. ZINOBER: Any additional board-member
22 comments or questions? All right, Ms. Rollins.
23 You can't go home because you're stuck here.
24 THE WITNESS: I know.
25 MR. ZINOBER: I assume that's your last

271
1 witness?
2 MS. GREEN: You assumed correctly.
3 MR. ZINOBER: How much time does the
4 county have left?
5 MR. GUERRERO: 11 minutes, 38 seconds.
6 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Lawson, believe it or
7 not, this is now your case in chief. And I'm
8 assuming that you are going to make a statement
9 or a presentation.
11 MR. ZINOBER: And you need to be sworn.
12 You can make the statement either from the
13 podium or from where you are, but you need to
14 be sworn.
15 MR. LAWSON: I can make it from here.
16 MR. ZINOBER: Okay.
17 (Mr. Guerrero administers oath.)
18 MR. LAWSON: Today I'm here to defend
19 myself against an accusation I never wanted to
20 encounter, an accusation of child abuse. Never
21 would I ever have dreamed of being in such a
22 situation, but here I am.
23 Approximately 24 to 25 individuals in the
24 cafeteria, three interviewed by appointing
25 authority, five interviewed by CPI and law

272
1 enforcement. Policy states that all employees
2 temporarily removed or relocated will be
3 presumed innocent pending the outcome of the
4 investigation.
5 Law enforcement closed the investigation
6 unfounded. CPI closed the case not
7 substantiated with no interventions needed.
8 But I'm here due to being dismissed with video
9 surveillance that does provide a definitive
10 action and regular speed is used against me.
11 The video shows sudden movements by the
12 child and I which was perceived as a slap.
13 Perception is not the deciding factor when
14 considering someone's livelihood. Once the
15 video was slowed down, it confirms my argument
16 that I did not slap the child, nor did I swing
17 at the child.
18 As mentioned earlier, Ms. Green said in
19 the preconference hearing that if the board
20 determines that I did not make contact with the
21 kid, the dismissal should still be upheld
22 because I swung at the kid. The video will
23 show in slow motion that that is not the case.
24 In addition, key eyewitness, Cynthia
25 Simmons, stated that she witnessed and heard a

273
1 slap that wasn't in the youth's face, but now
2 she's saying it was. Because the youth -- she
3 said the youth would have had torn skin on her
4 face. In her words, she seen the whole thing.
5 But clearly she wasn't even looking in that
6 direction.
7 She also stated that I apologized to her
8 for losing my composure and hitting a youth and
9 that youth we're talking about inside the
10 cottage after the party and they even discussed
11 it with another staff. And if that was the
12 case, why would abuse not have been called at
13 that time? Because therefore I would have been
14 confirming that I abused the child, and it
15 would have been confirmed that the kids was
16 really bothered by what was going on.
17 But she made no efforts during this
18 event, during this incident to get out of her
19 seat for the alleged incident, nor did she
20 write a report, report what she supposedly
21 witnessed to abuse hotline or to her direct
22 supervisor.
23 We all have access to our direct
24 supervisors even if she'd go through the shift
25 leader and get her phone number from him.

274
1 Eyewitness Michelle Veale stated that the sound
2 of the slap prompted her to turn around and
3 that's when she saw me slap the kid on her
4 cheek hard, then she slapped me.
5 Also Ms. Simmons says, "I can't believe
6 that." And she replied, "It's a problem." But
7 again, no effort was made by Ms. Veale to walk
8 in that direction or to report the alleged
9 abuse. She told CPI that the direct care staff
10 was supposed to write a report. But she also
11 told HR that she started the report but didn't
12 finish because it was supposed to be an
13 internal report.
14 She had her phone in her hand the whole
15 time. She could have text Ms. Rhonda. She
16 could have called her. She could have stepped
17 out because she was in ratio, but she did
18 neither. Nor did she report the alleged abuse
19 until Monday, which means all day Sunday, she
20 was able to relax, be by herself, and she still
21 decided not to call because there was no abuse.
22 So that's two mandated reporters that
23 claim they witnessed an abuse but not make
24 procedure or notifications. That's another 21
25 individuals the appointing authority would have

275
1 interviewed to get a fair outcome.
2 The party continued after the alleged
3 incident, no interruption in the party. But
4 why not? Because the alleged incident never
5 occurred. If it would have been addressed
6 immediately, law enforcement could have came
7 out, could have interviewed everybody at that
8 time, but it didn't happen.
9 Ms. Rollins said that I was the
10 supervisor. I was supervising the shift. Ms.
11 Michelle Veale stated that we are peers, which
12 means I'm not her supervisor, we're on the same
13 level. She had her phone. She's a case
14 manager. She has communication with all the
15 case managers. She could have been free to
16 contact anybody at any time, but she didn't.
17 I went there. I did my job. I continued
18 doing my job. I never struck a child. Yes, I
19 flinched at the child. But flinching at a
20 child, it's a playful motion, it's not
21 horseplaying, it's playing. I flinch with my
22 kids. I play with my kids, that's what you do.
23 You want the kids to have normalcy. You want
24 to be on rapport with the kid.
25 If I would frightened this kid, hurt this

276
1 kid or did anything, the kid would not have
2 stood by me for an extended period of time.
3 Ms. Michelle says Ms. Tate walked by her and
4 said she would handle it.
5 Ms. Michelle was facing the opposite
6 direction. Ms. Tate walked by and she spoke
7 with the kid next to her and continued through.
8 There was no abuse that occurred that night.
9 There were no rules that were broken that
10 night. There was no policies, no procedure,
11 nothing that was broken that night because
12 nothing occurred. It was a smooth night.
13 There was not any issues going on. The
14 kid was standing there. The kid was relaxed,
15 no reflex, no reaction to someone has been
16 slapped, someone that's fearful. And then the
17 guardian states that the kid told her that Mr.
18 Lawson slapped her. Everyone else that came in
19 advised you that the kids do not refer to me as
20 Mr. Lawson, not one child on that campus refers
21 to us by our last name. They call us Mr. Tre,
22 Ms. Rhonda, Ms. JoAnn, whoever it may be. They
23 use our first names.
24 I mentioned before, I turned my badge
25 around. Staff -- when I first started working

277
1 there, staff started looking up people on the
2 Internet. If staff would do it, the kids would
3 it. You don't need the kids knowing where you
4 live. You don't need the kids knowing anything
5 personal about you. So I kept it so they
6 couldn't see it. So she wouldn't know my full
7 name, she wouldn't know my last name.
8 But at the end of the day, it's
9 heartbreaking that I have to sit in here and I
10 have to prove myself for something that I
11 didn't do. If I'm not wanted at Children's
12 Services, there's other agencies. They had me
13 at Pet Resources.
14 If you felt that you didn't want me
15 there, leave me at Pet Resources, I would still
16 be helpful there. But now you're affecting my
17 livelihood. I have five kids to take care of,
18 and I lost my job for something that I didn't
19 do. And now that it seems that I didn't do it,
20 it seems like now they're trying to justify
21 reasons that they could have terminated me.
22 That's not fair.
23 I didn't break any rules. I didn't
24 strike a kid, I didn't swing at the kid, a
25 flinching motion. We do that with our kids.

278
1 We do that when you see normalcy. That's their
2 environment.
3 The kid wasn't traumatized, not that day,
4 not the day after. I was on the campus the
5 whole 24 hours after that. Nothing went wrong.
6 Prior to this event, nothing went wrong. But
7 once again, I'm in here and I have to plead a
8 case and try to get a job back.
9 Yes, I love working for kids, but if they
10 don't want me there, don't take my job, don't
11 take my livelihood. The county has so many
12 departments, allow me to go to another
13 department. Don't ruin who I am. Don't ruin
14 my life because you may have some personal
15 issues or personal reason that you don't want
16 me there.
17 The facts state that I did nothing wrong.
18 Perception isn't everything. The kid told you
19 I didn't do it. I told you I didn't do it.
20 Staff say they saw it. But when you look at
21 the video, they're not even paying attention,
22 but their word is blind to mine. I'm a liar?
23 I don't get it.
24 Once again, I did nothing wrong, and I'm
25 hoping that you all saw that yourselves. And I

279
1 hope we can work something out, whether it be
2 me going to a different department since it's
3 clear that I'm not wanted at Children's
4 Services, or something to continue my life and
5 do what I have to do for my kids and myself.
6 MR. CANASI: Thank you, Mr. Lawson.
7 MR. ZINOBER: I think we have an
8 opportunity for cross-examination.
9 MS. GREEN: I decline.
10 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Lawson, do you have any
11 witnesses to call?
12 MR. LAWSON: Are the witnesses still over
13 there? Is everyone gone?
14 MS. GREEN: Yes, they're gone.
15 MR. LAWSON: My witness was dismissed.
16 MR. ZINOBER: Did you have them under
17 subpoena?
18 Mr. LAWSON: Yes, sir.
19 MR. CANASI: Who was your witness?
20 MR. LAWSON: Trenesia Strong.
21 MS. BELL: What?
22 MS. HOSLER: Why was she dismissed?
23 MS. BELL: You had a witness, and they've
24 been dismissed?
25 MR. LAWSON: Ms. Alma said everyone was

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1 dismissed.
2 MR. ZINOBER: Why were they dismissed?
3 MS. ALMA: We indicated that the county's
4 witnesses were dismissed, but there is no one
5 left in the witness room.
6 MS. BELL: You just can't win, bud, you
7 just can't win.
8 MR. ZINOBER: That is a problem.
9 MR. TRICHLER: That's a big problem.
10 MS. GREEN: Can I ask a question? When I
11 learned that Mr. Lawson subpoenaed Ms. Strong,
12 I offered to make sure she got the subpoena
13 and, of course, wanted to know, hey, were you
14 there that night, do you know anything about
15 the case. I'm not sure why Mr. Lawson would be
16 calling Ms. Strong.
17 MR. ZINOBER: Well, that's really not the
18 issue.
19 MS. GREEN: Well, what if it's just for
20 character evidence, that doesn't matter?
21 MS. HOSLER: So --
22 MS. GREEN: Isn't that what you said in
23 the prehearing conference, that we don't take
24 character evidence?
25 MR. ZINOBER: You know, Ms. Green, I

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1 think it would be highly improper for you to
2 speculatively proffer what you think Mr. Lawson
3 might want to ask his witness before he puts
4 her on the stand.
5 MS. GREEN: Well, can we ask him?
6 MR. ZINOBER: No, because he had a
7 witness under subpoena. Was she here?
8 MS. GREEN: She was here. She did
9 appear.
10 MR. ZINOBER: Why was she dismissed?
11 MS. ALMA: We indicated that the county's
12 witnesses were dismissed, they could go home,
13 and she must have misunderstood and that that
14 included her.
15 MR. ZINOBER: Was she the only witness
16 you had, Mr. Lawson, under subpoena?
18 MS. HOSLER: Can we call her at 1 a.m.?
19 MS. BELL: This is a train wreck.
20 MR. CANASI: Was she here to be a
21 character witness for you, sir?
22 MR. LAWSON: Not a character witness.
23 She was a shift leader the following day, and
24 normally they're briefed on all issues and
25 incidents that occurred on the shift prior to

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1 them coming in.
2 MS. BELL: Was anything about this
3 mentioned to her?
4 MR. LAWSON: No, there wasn't.
5 MS. BELL: That would have been a really
6 good witness to hear from.
7 MS. GREEN: Absolutely. The witness
8 needs to be heard from, I agree.
9 MR. ZINOBER: Well, then it seems to me
10 that the board needs to decide whether to
11 continue this hearing and set it for another
12 day when this witness can appear. I don't see
13 any other alternative. It's not a character
14 witness. She should not have been permitted to
15 walk out.
16 MR. TRICHLER: I would say if Mr. Lawson
17 wants to do that. I would support him 100
18 percent. It's your right if you want to do
19 that.
20 MR. LAWSON: I would prefer to because
21 she was my only witness.
22 MS. GREEN: Do you want us to try and
23 locate her by cell phone and see if she's in a
24 position to come back if she's gone?
25 MR. ZINOBER: We can try it.

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1 MS. HOSLER: Do you have her phone
2 number, Mr. Lawson?
4 (Discussion off the record.)
5 MR. CANASI: Roll call.
6 MR. GUERRERO: Canasi?
7 MR. CANASI: Here.
8 MR. GUERRERO: Trichler?
11 MS. BELL: Here.
12 MR. GUERRERO: Carbaugh?
15 MS. CICHON: Here.
17 MS. HOSLER: Here.
18 MR. GUERRERO: Strepina? Thank you. You
19 have a quorum.
20 MR. CANASI: Mr. Lawson, do you want to
21 call your witness, please?
22 MR. ZINOBER: You've been sworn in?
23 MS. STRONG: I have.
24 MR. ZINOBER: Would you spell your name
25 for the record?

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1 MS. STRONG: Trenesia Strong,
2 T-r-e-n-e-s-i-a Strong, S-t-r-o-n-g.
3 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Lawson, you can
4 proceed.
5 MR. CANASI: First of all, thank you very
6 much for coming back.
7 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.
8 * * * * * * * * *
9 TRENESIA STRONG,
14 BY MR. LAWSON:
15 Q Ms. Strong, do you recall working on
16 March 4th, 2018?
17 A March 4th would have been the Sunday?
18 Q Sunday, correct.
19 A Yes, I worked that Sunday.
20 Q Do you remember what shift you worked?
21 A Yes, 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.
22 Q On that day within your 12 hours, what
23 was the campus like?
24 A That was the day that the kids went to
25 the fair, so we were preparing for an activity.

285
1 Q Strawberry Festival?
2 A Strawberry Festival, yes.
3 Q That particular date, prior to staff
4 leaving from the night shift, when you were briefed,
5 were you briefed about anything along the lines of
6 me possibly striking a kid?
7 A No.
8 Q From the shift leader or from any of the
9 staff?
10 A No.
11 Q Throughout the shift, did you hear any of
12 the kids remaining on campus talking about me
13 striking a kid?
14 A No.
15 Q When did you become aware of the
16 allegations?
17 A I don't remember exactly when I was aware
18 of that allegation. The first allegation was that a
19 child slapped Mr. Lawson. It was -- I don't know if
20 it was days later that I was told that she slapped
21 him and then he slapped her.
22 Q Okay. So it was changing shifts, the
23 night shift was leaving when you were coming in.
24 You said that no one approached you and told you
25 anything, "Watch out for this because this may be

286
1 happening" or --
2 A No.
3 Q -- "Make sure Mr. Lawson is not around
4 this particular individual"?
5 A No.
6 Q We had a witness earlier that stated
7 something, but I'm going to ask you a question about
8 it first before I elaborate on it. You're shift
9 leader. What are your roles as a shift leader?
10 A I manage the daily activities for the
11 youth and communicate with the community, parents,
12 and case managers throughout the shift.
13 Q Do you ever do intakes?
14 A Yes, intakes, discharges.
15 Q RGC intakes. How often do the kids come
16 in that's -- coming from RGC, how often do they
17 refuse placement at Lake Mag?
18 A They refuse often if they can't keep
19 their cell phone because they can't keep their cell
20 phones.
21 Q So that's mainly why they're refusing?
22 A Yes, um-hum.
23 Q Outside of the allegation you heard on
24 this occasion, have you ever witnessed or heard of
25 me striking a child?

287
1 A No.
2 Q How long have you been working with me?
3 A Since you started, about three, four
4 years.
5 Q Three years.
6 A Three years.
7 Q So in the whole three years, you never
8 witnessed or heard of me strike a child?
9 A No.
10 Q Abuse a child in any manner?
11 A No.
13 MS. GREEN: No cross.
14 MR. ZINOBER: No cross. Board members?
15 EXAMINATION
16 BY MS. BELL:
17 Q Is Mr. Lawson a child abuser?
18 A No.
19 Q Have you seen the video from the dining
20 facility?
21 A No.
22 Q Do the children in general like Mr.
23 Lawson?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Do the children in general like Ms.

288
1 Michelle?
2 A Yes.
3 Q How about Ms. Simmons?
4 A Yes.
5 MS. BELL: That's it.
6 MR. TRICHLER: Question.
7 EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. TRICHLER:
9 Q The intake forms, can you kind of clarify
10 what an intake form is?
11 A Our intake process, just the interview
12 process for when we bring a child into the program,
13 their basic information, their guardian information.
14 And we give out handbooks for our program just
15 explaining how our program works. And the intake
16 process also includes -- the children come in with
17 yellow jackets, which has their history in it.
18 Q Have you ever come in on a -- the
19 incident happened on a Saturday. You came in on
20 Sunday?
21 A That Sunday.
22 Q Okay. Are there times that you come in
23 on the morning shift and other staff members say,
24 "Hey, this is what happened last night"?
25 A Yes. We're briefed before every shift.

289
1 EXAMINATION
2 BY MS. BELL:
3 Q Do you recall who provided the brief
4 during that turnover in that morning, or is it kind
5 of collaborative, everybody?
6 A I can't remember exactly who briefed me.
7 I can't remember exactly who it was.
8 MS. BELL: That's all I've got.
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY MS. CICHON:
11 Q Do you have any reason to believe that
12 either peers of Mr. Lawson or any members of
13 leadership would not want him in his current role?
14 A No.
15 Q Can you tell us a little bit about your
16 observations of how the policies are upheld at work
17 specifically around reporting child abuse if you see
18 something happening?
19 A We're mandated reporters. So if we
20 witness or even if we witness it or if we're told of
21 abuse, we are to report it.
22 Q How often do you receive training on
23 proper technique responsibility?
24 A For abuse?
25 Q For reporting, following policy.

290
1 A Well, we're trained often, a lot, but we
2 review the policies often and we're trained.
3 Q What do you think in your professional
4 opinion is an appropriate amount of time to call in
5 and report child abuse if you saw something?
6 A Right away.
7 Q Would there be any circumstance where the
8 next day or two days later would be acceptable from
9 your professional opinion?
10 A No.
11 MS. CICHON: No other questions.
12 MR. CANASI: Any other questions? Thank
13 you. We won't call you back. You're free to
14 go.
15 MS. GREEN: We're very sorry.
16 THE WITNESS: No problem.
17 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Lawson, do you have any
18 other witnesses?
20 MR. ZINOBER: Then you rest your case?
22 MR. ZINOBER: Are we ready for closing?
23 MS. GREEN: We are. Board members, as we
24 began this evening, I told you we were here
25 because an employee slapped a child. The

291
1 evidence in the record confirms Mr. Lawson
2 slapped the child.
3 Michelle Veale testified she saw and
4 heard Mr. Lawson slap the child. Cynthia
5 Simmons testified she saw Mr. Lawson slap the
6 child. Ms. Veale testified Mr. Lawson appeared
7 shocked when he slapped the child and that it
8 seemed like a reaction, that he was upset that
9 the child had slapped him.
10 The video in evidence corroborates their
11 testimony. Ms. Simmons further testified that
12 Mr. Lawson sought her out twice the same night.
13 She testified that Mr. Lawson apologized for
14 hitting the child.
15 It's important to note that Ms. Veale
16 testified she heard Ms. Simmons say Mr. Lawson
17 apologized to Ms. Simmons. Ms. Simmons
18 testified that Mr. Lawson said it was a natural
19 reaction to slap someone back when he got
20 slapped.
21 When assessing witness credibility,
22 consider who had opportunity to see what was
23 happening. Ms. Veale testified she clearly saw
24 Mr. Lawson and the child from where they were
25 standing in the cafeteria that night. Ms.

292
1 Simmons and Ms. Veale never wavered on whether
2 or not they saw Mr. Lawson slap the child.
3 They both committed in writing close in time to
4 the incident that Mr. Lawson slapped the child
5 after the child slapped Mr. Lawson.
6 Ginger Rockey-Johnson, who isn't even
7 employed by the county, testified that the
8 child told her Mr. Lawson slapped her. The
9 child was surprised by it, and the child ran
10 after that happened, which was how she dealt
11 with that type of trauma coming from a
12 background of being hit in the face with a
13 frying pan by her own mother.
14 Ms. Rockey-Johnson also testified that
15 other children in her care talked about the
16 fact that Mr. Lawson slapped a child and those
17 children did not want to be placed at Lake
18 Magdalene because of Mr. Lawson's behavior.
19 Ms. Rockey-Johnson, CPI Gregory, both of
20 them testified about the possible reasons the
21 child told her guardian ad litem Mr. Lawson
22 slapped her but she told CPI Gregory and law
23 enforcement, Mr. Lawson did not slap her.
24 You heard them testify it's common for a
25 child who's been abused, whose own mother hit

293
1 her in the face with a frying pan, might later
2 say a caregiver did not hit her even if that
3 was not the truth.
4 According to Ms. Rockey-Johnson and Ms.
5 Rhodes, this child may have compartmentalized
6 what happened. Compared to what she's been
7 through, it's nothing. There could be fear.
8 There could be a desire to protect Mr. Lawson
9 to make sure she wouldn't lose any privilege
10 points. She may have been promised something.
11 Ms. Rockey-Johnson testified, "To keep this
12 quiet, you'll get your nails and your hair
13 done."
14 She may have felt intimidated by Mr.
15 Lawson, a person in power over her. There was
16 testimony about trying to get in good with
17 somebody to make sure you don't get hit. If
18 you're a child who's been removed from your
19 home because of abuse, it's a totally different
20 perspective than any of us, hopefully, have.
21 There's no evidence in the record to
22 suggest Ms. Simmons, Ms. Veale, Ms. Rockey-
23 Johnson, Ms. Rhodes or CPI Gregory had any
24 motive to misrepresent facts.
25 CPI Gregory assessed the facts and

294
1 determined that Mr. Lawson hit the child but
2 did not cause injury, and that's why he closed
3 the case not substantiated.
4 If he had determined Mr. Lawson did not
5 hit the child, he testified he would have
6 closed the case with a different finding with
7 no indicators of abuse, but he didn't do that.
8 You heard CPI Gregory testify there were
9 indicators of abuse because of the video
10 evidence and the eyewitness accounts.
11 Additionally, Ms. Rhodes, Ms. Rollins testified
12 that Mr. Lawson failed to utilize NAPPI
13 prevention and de-escalation techniques on
14 March 3rd. He failed to stop the child from
15 horseplay, as he should have, right away.
16 He held on to a soda preventing him from
17 having hands free to properly block the child
18 or restrain her. He didn't ask other staff for
19 help. He lost his cool and took a swing at the
20 child and he slapped her back.
21 Along the way, were there are
22 inconsistencies in witness testimony?
23 Absolutely. Someone wrote in her statement the
24 party was on Saturday, March 4th, instead of
25 Saturday, March 3rd. Does that mean Mr. Lawson

295
1 did not hit the child? Of course not.
2 If someone said Mr. Lawson hit the child
3 on the right cheek or shoulder instead of the
4 left as the video documented, does that mean
5 Mr. Lawson did not hit the child? Of course
6 not.
7 She strikes him once, twice, three times.
8 He hits back. And if he doesn't make contact,
9 you've got plenty of testimony to indicate that
10 the very act of raising the hand at that child
11 retraumatizes not only that child but every
12 other child in the room who's been abused
13 because that person is the highest person on
14 the campus at that time, the highest-ranked
15 person in charge of making sure that these
16 children are safe. And he's the one that
17 reaches out? Really? He's the one that
18 reaches out to hit a child?
19 Even if you conclude that he didn't hit,
20 the video is clear he took a swing at her.
21 That's not flinching, although he testified it
22 was. That's not putting hands up toward her.
23 He had a soda in one of his hands. That's
24 taking a swing at a thirteen-year-old child who
25 had been physically abused and who he was

296
1 supposed to protect.
2 It's not about what Cynthia Simmons did
3 or did not do. It's not about what Michelle
4 Veale did or did not do. It's not about how
5 fast it was reported, although it should have
6 been. It's about his misconduct alone.
7 Mr. Lawson's behavior toward a child in
8 the county's care that night violated multiple
9 policies and rules, and I'm going to walk you
10 through them quickly.
11 He violated Civil Service Rule 11.2, Sub
12 1 and HR Policy 7.6, Sub 1 in multiple ways.
13 First, Children's Services prohibits staff from
14 hitting the children in their care. That is in
15 the record. It's record evidence in the joint
16 prehearing statement, the fact section,
17 Paragraph No. 10. So when he hit a child, he
18 violated 11.2, Sub 1 and HR Policy 7.6, Sub 1,
19 because that's a policy. That's a directive.
20 He violated Civil Service Rule 11.2, Sub
21 1 and HR Policy 7.6, Sub 1 in another way when
22 he failed to utilize the approved NAPPI
23 prevention and verbal de-escalation and
24 intervention techniques required by the
25 department and found at Exhibit No. 16.

297
1 He held on to his soda preventing him
2 from having hands free to properly block the
3 child or restrain her. He didn't ask other
4 staff for help. He lost his cool and took a
5 swing at her and he slapped her back, all in
6 violation of the departmental policy found at
7 No. 16, approved intervention techniques.
8 He violated 11.2, Sub 1 and HR Policy
9 7.6, Sub 1. We're still on the same rules
10 because he violated them another way. By
11 violating HR Policy 7.5 at Exhibit No. 14, Mr.
12 Lawson hit the child or took a swing at her,
13 and that is conduct that brings discredit and
14 embarrassment to the county in violation of
15 7.5.
16 He also violated Civil Service Rules 11.2
17 and HR Policy 7.6, Sub 2 because what he did
18 was incompetent. It was gross neglect, which
19 violates 11.2, Sub 4 and HR Policy 7.6, Sub 4.
20 And he violated 11.2, Sub 13 and HR Policy 7.6,
21 Sub 13, because that's the epitome of an unsafe
22 act, hitting a child reaching out to hit a
23 child.
24 He also violated 11.2, Sub 6 and HR
25 Policy 7.6, Sub 5 and 6. Again, back to

298
1 Subparagraph 10 of the fact section of the
2 joint prehearing statement which is in
3 evidence, and it indicates Children's Services
4 prohibits staff from hitting children. He
5 violated a lawful regulation, an order, a
6 direction by management, by supervision not to
7 hit a child in care.
8 Board members, Mr. Lawson also violated
9 Civil Service Rule 11.2, Sub 26 and HR Policy
10 7.6, Sub 26 when he hit or took a swing at that
11 child because those actions are prejudicial to
12 good order and detrimental to the interest of
13 Hillsborough County.
14 He also violated 11.2, 32 and 7.6, 32
15 because if any substantial cause was ever in
16 the best interest of the county, it would be
17 that we actually protect and keep safe the
18 children who are in the county's care because
19 they have been abused and neglected and that's
20 why they live at Lake Mag in the first place.
21 Board members, the evidence in this case
22 demonstrated Mr. Lawson slapped a child. He
23 slapped her in front of other children. He
24 slapped her in front of other staff members.
25 He did it despite the presence of surveillance

299
1 cameras, and he admitted it when he apologized
2 to Cynthia Simmons. We ask that you uphold the
3 county's decision to dismiss Mr. Lawson. Thank
4 you.
5 MR. ZINOBER: Thank you, Ms. Green. Mr.
6 Lawson, you're entitled to make your closing
7 arguments now.
8 MR. LAWSON: That's kind of what I was
9 doing earlier. But Ms. Green just went down a
10 whole list of rules that I have broken, and I
11 completely disagree. Never have I ever struck
12 a child out on that campus or any other child.
13 I didn't break any rules. I didn't do
14 anything, no gross neglect, not failure to use
15 NAPPI. NAPPI wasn't needed because the kid was
16 playing. It's okay for a child to feel normal.
17 It's okay to play with a child. They're
18 children, they're going to play. I never
19 raised my hand. The video, like I said, is not
20 even clear.
21 When Mr. Canasi went up, he initially
22 thought that I struck the kid, and then I
23 advised him that that's not my hand, that's the
24 kid's hands going up. Then he looked at it
25 again and he saw that also. You don't see my

300
1 hand coming toward this kid.
2 What I don't do is I don't abuse kids, I
3 don't hit kids. Never have, never will. I
4 don't even chastise my own kids. I came here,
5 I did my job. Regardless of how someone may
6 perceive or want to perceive something, it's
7 not true. Ms. Simmons said I apologized to
8 her. I didn't apologize to Ms. Simmons. Why
9 would I apologize for something that I didn't
10 do?
11 That's one thing that I'm never going to
12 do, I'm not going to go up to you and apologize
13 for something that I didn't do. And she says
14 Ms. Michelle was in there with her, but Ms.
15 Michelle's statement states that we were back
16 there and we leave out. She never says
17 anything about Ms. Simmons being back there.
18 But Ms. Simmons is saying Michelle was
19 back there and Michelle came to her and
20 confirmed it and I apologized, this, that and
21 the other. That's not the case. Like I said,
22 I never abused a kid. That's one thing I have
23 never done. That's one thing I never do.
24 Right now my livelihood is in jeopardy.
25 And if I would have struck the kid, I

301
1 would have to accept what I did and accept my
2 consequence. But how can I accept a
3 consequence for something that I didn't do?
4 Regardless of what happens, you all are going
5 to make a decision of what you see fit, and I
6 have to respect that. But this is one thing
7 that I didn't do, and I put that on everything
8 that I love.
9 I did not strike this kid. I did not
10 swing at this kid. Like I don't get it. Like
11 I say, if you recall like I'm that detrimental
12 to Children's Services, although I didn't do
13 anything -- and the video, testimony and all of
14 that shows that I didn't do anything -- allow
15 me to go elsewhere. Do not ruin my life.
16 That's all I ask, do my not ruin my life. I
17 have nothing else to say.
18 MR. ZINOBER: Thank you, Mr. Lawson. Mr.
19 Chairman, it's time for deliberations and
20 voting.
21 MR. CANASI: I'm going to kick this off.
22 I made a couple of notes here on some things
23 that I have issues with. No. 1 is the video
24 resolution. That video resolution makes it
25 very inconclusive to come to a decision on

302
1 whether or not there was a reflexive reaction
2 or whether there was a strike, it really does.
3 And, you know, you've got to prove beyond a
4 reasonable doubt. And I just don't think that
5 there's -- I think there's enough reasonable
6 doubt there.
7 Witness credibility. The two main
8 witnesses against Mr. Lawson, in my opinion,
9 have zero credibility, zero credibility, and
10 they have zero work ethic from what I saw in
11 that video too. LG denied to the CPI
12 investigator that she was ever struck by Mr.
13 Lawson, yet she gave the guardian ad litem a
14 different story, so there's an inconsistency
15 there. Again, proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
16 There's no consistency there.
17 MS. HOSLER: The standard is
18 preponderance of the evidence.
19 MR. CANASI: Yes. With that being said,
20 I don't think you're going to ever have any
21 usefulness at Lake Mag again. I don't think it
22 would be in your best interest to be there. I
23 don't think it would be in the county's best
24 interest for you to be there or in any position
25 with Children's Services, at least not now or

303
1 in the foreseeable future.
2 I believe you, I do. I want you to know
3 that. I want to look at you straight eyeball
4 to eyeball and tell you I believe you, the same
5 way I would look at you if I didn't believe you
6 and I'd tell you I don't believe you, but I
7 believe you. I think that you did show lack of
8 leadership, but that's not why you're here. I
9 don't like the fact that you hid your name tag,
10 but that's not why you're here.
11 I think there is a win-win situation
12 here. I think that Children's Services can get
13 what they want by making sure that Mr. Lawson
14 is no longer employed with Children's Services,
15 and I think Mr. Lawson can get what he wants by
16 making sure that HR and the county places him
17 in another division within our county. I think
18 he deserves that.
19 I'm curious about one thing, Mr. Lawson,
20 your e-mail address, "changed man." Can you
21 explain that to me?
22 MR. LAWSON: I grew up poor. I grew up
23 in a poor area in western Palm Beach County.
24 Nobody had much hope for many of us kids coming
25 out of that area. I made it out. I graduated

304
1 college. I'm actually a father to my kids. I
2 try to maintain a job, so I'm a lot different
3 than everyone else down there, so I am the
4 changed man from that area. I'm the one that's
5 making something out of myself.
6 MR. CANASI: That's why it's
7 "changedman561"? That's the area code down
8 there.
10 MR. CANASI: So my position on this is
11 pretty clear. I think that Ms. Rollins was the
12 most credible witness that we had in terms of
13 the county. I think she made some extremely
14 valid points. And if the decision here tonight
15 were simply to place him back at Lake Mag or
16 not place him back at Lake Mag, I would decide
17 not to place him back at Lake Mag, but that's
18 not the decision we have. The decision we have
19 to make is to keep him as an employee of
20 Hillsborough County. And based on that
21 decision, I am going to vote to overturn the
22 termination. That's going to be my position.
23 MS. BELL: Mr. Lawson, I also believe
24 you, and I second Mr. Canasi's sentiments, and
25 I will also be voting to overturn this

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1 termination.
2 MR. LAWSON: Thank you.
3 MR. TRICHLER: That would make three,
4 sir. And we see a lot of individuals come in
5 here. Many of them are unrepresented like
6 yourself. You've done a fabulous job of
7 representing yourself, sir.
9 MS. CICHON: And I have to also agree
10 with the other three. Again, I think you've
11 represented yourself very well. I think there
12 are definite opportunities to improve on all
13 accounts from witnesses that we heard tonight
14 to leadership as well, as Mr. Canasi has
15 mentioned, but I think those are all things
16 that we can learn and grow from and that don't
17 define you or should warrant you losing your
18 job completely, so I will also be voting in
19 favor.
21 MR. CARBAUGH: Mr. Lawson, I concur with
22 the rest. You've done a good job here, and I
23 think that the county -- you made a comment
24 earlier about how it sounds like they had it in
25 mind to get rid of you and they did whatever

306
1 they could in hindsight to make it happen, and
2 that's what it really looks like.
3 However -- and I'm struggling with this
4 because I want to kind of do exactly what the
5 other board members said. But the fact that
6 two witnesses, not one but two, said they saw
7 you, the fact that the video kind of looks like
8 you do -- you can't really say for sure, but it
9 sure looks like you at least swung at her, if
10 not hit her -- and the fact that the child
11 herself told her guardian that you did, that's
12 four.
13 I mean, if it was just one, one of those
14 four issues, okay, their word against yours.
15 But the fact that there's that many witnesses
16 and the video, I have to -- I'm going to end up
17 voting against the county for most of those
18 things that they claim you did, which you
19 didn't.
20 But in terms of probably not handling
21 yourself correctly at that instant, which is
22 11.2 Rule (1), I'm going to have to say that I
23 agree with the county. And the really
24 frustrating aspect of this type of a hearing is
25 that they could charge you with 12 different

307
1 things -- and I don't know how many there are,
2 at least eight or nine -- and we could find you
3 innocent of all of them except one, and that's
4 all it takes. All it takes is one, and then we
5 have to side with the county. It's frustrating
6 it works that way, but that's the way the
7 process goes. So unlike the other board
8 members, I just can't get past that number of
9 witnesses.
10 MR. LAWSON: Understood. Thank you.
11 MR. TRICHLER: That would have been okay
12 with me until we had those witnesses. I've got
13 to tell you, I can't give any weight or
14 credibility to what those witnesses say,
15 especially with the tape and their prior
16 statements. I mean, it just --
17 MR. CANASI: A lot of contradiction.
18 MR. TRICHLER: Yes. I can't give any
19 weight or credibility to those witnesses who
20 say they saw it. You're looking at 11.2, so
21 that's why I've got zero issue with saying I'm
22 not giving them any credibility because I just
23 didn't believe them.
24 MS. HOSLER: I still struggle, I've got
25 to tell you, but I appreciate Ms. Rollins'

308
1 testimony. I am in her camp. I understand her
2 mission. I get it. I think you're probably a
3 decent person, but I feel when you're entrusted
4 with somebody else's children, it's a different
5 standard. I am of the opinion you just don't
6 touch other people's kids whether you're a
7 babysitter, you're an aunt or you're a paid
8 employee. And that's where my problem is. You
9 touched this girl. I mean, I have a big
10 problem with that.
11 I echo everything Mr. Carbaugh said. I
12 hate to see this outcome. But the board can
13 find you violated one rule and it would lead to
14 the outcome that you don't want, and that's
15 probably the way, unfortunately, that I will be
16 voting tonight.
18 MR. TRICHLER: We should probably go
19 through them one by one.
20 MR. CANASI: I want to commend County
21 Attorney Danielle Green. You, as always, do
22 your job thoroughly.
23 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Chairman, just a couple
24 of legal points, and I think they're important
25 to mention. One, I think one of the board

309
1 members already mentioned; and that is, the
2 standard is preponderance of the evidence. And
3 because this is an appeal by Mr. Lawson, he has
4 to establish by a preponderance of the evidence
5 that the county did not have cause under each
6 of these policies and board rules.
7 The second point I think is equally as
8 important, and that is that the remedy for an
9 employee who prevails in an appeal is
10 reinstatement to his former position. It's not
11 just reinstatement to the county, it's
12 reinstatement to the position he held before.
13 That does not mean that an opportunity would
14 not exist to negotiate another solution. But I
15 think it's important to focus on what the law
16 and what the statute provides in the way of a
17 remedy, and that is reinstatement.
18 Reinstatement means place the employee back in
19 the position he would have been in had he never
20 been terminated.
21 MR. CANASI: Well, the bottom line is
22 that he's not at Children's Services now, and
23 our job is to determine whether or not he
24 should remain an employee. We'll leave it up
25 to HR where he goes. That's their issue.

310
1 MS. HOSLER: I believe we have to vote on
2 whether he violated each of the rules set forth
3 on paper.
4 MR. CANASI: Yes.
5 MR. ZINOBER: Yes. I would suggest
6 dealing first with Rules, Board Rules Sub (2),
7 (4), (6), (13), (26) and (32). Once you
8 find --
9 MR. CANASI: Rules (2), (4), (6), (13),
10 (26) and (32)?
11 MR. ZINOBER: And then go back to (1).
12 MS. GREEN: I hate to slow your roll, but
13 I want to make sure that -- I wasn't sure if
14 Mr. Canasi fully understood the legal advice by
15 the comment that he made afterwards about what
16 the jurisdiction of the board is in terms of
17 what would happen after voting. Do you see
18 what I'm saying? Because he mentioned, "I'll
19 let HR make that decision." But HR really
20 doesn't have any leeway about where he goes.
21 MR. ZINOBER: And I think the fact is the
22 vote of the Board is self-executing. It
23 doesn't really matter whether the board members
24 have a fine-tuned understanding of what
25 equitable relief is under the statute, but he

311
1 does have to be put back in the position he
2 would have been in had he never left his former
3 job, and that includes back pay, retroactive
4 benefits and reinstatement to his former
5 position.
6 MS. GREEN: At Lake Mag as RSC?
7 MR. ZINOBER: Yes.
8 MS. GREEN: Sorry to interrupt.
9 MR. TRICHLER: I'm going to make a motion
10 that the authority did not prevail on violation
11 of Rule 11.2, Sub (2).
12 MS. BELL: Second.
13 MR. TRICHLER: There was no violation of
14 11.2, Sub (2).
15 MR. ZINOBER: Member Carbaugh, you second
16 it?
17 MS. BELL: No, I second.
18 MR. ZINOBER: Oh, you did. Okay.
19 MR. CANASI: We have a motion and a
20 second. All in favor of the motion, signify by
21 saying aye. Any opposed?
22 MS. HOSLER: Nay.
23 MR. CANASI: Mr. Carbaugh, are you
24 opposed, or did you --
25 MR. CARBAUGH: No, I'm not.

312
1 MR. ZINOBER: We have one opposed on that
2 one?
3 MS. GREEN: 5 to 1.
4 MR. TRICHLER: Right. I will make a
5 motion that there was no violation of Rule
6 11.2, Sub (4).
7 MS. BELL: Second.
9 second. All in favor of the motion signify by
10 saying aye.
11 MR. CANASI: Any opposed?
12 MS. HOSLER: Nay. I'm sorry. The motion
13 was no violation?
14 MR. CANASI: Correct. You're a nay on
15 that one?
16 MS. HOSLER: Yes.
17 MR. TRICHLER: I'll make a motion that
18 there was no violation of Rule 11.2, Sub (6).
20 MR. CANASI: I have a motion and a
23 MS. HOSLER: Nay.
24 MR. TRICHLER: I make a motion no
25 violation of 11.2, Sub (13).

313
1 MS. BELL: Second.
4 saying aye.
6 MS. HOSLER: Nay.
7 MR. CARBAUGH: Nay.
8 MR. CANASI: How many nays do we have?
9 MS. HOSLER: Two.
10 MR. TRICHLER: I will keep this bus
11 rolling. I will make a motion there was no
12 violation of Rule 11.2, Sub (26).
15 second. All in favor, signify by saying aye.
18 MS. HOSLER: Nay.
19 MR. CANASI: Which one is this?
20 MS. BELL: (26).
21 MR. CANASI: What is that rule?
22 MR. TRICHLER: Exhibited actions or
23 conduct prejudicial to good order or
24 detrimental to the interest of Hillsborough
25 County.

314
1 MR. ZINOBER: Who were the nos on that
2 one?
3 MR. CARBAUGH: Carbaugh.
4 MS. HOSLER: Hosler.
5 MR. CANASI: Remember, a tie prevails for
6 the county. Right?
7 MR. TRICHLER: I will make a motion,
8 there was no violation of Rule 11.2, Sub (32).
9 MS. BELL: Second.
10 MR. CANASI: All in favor, signify by
12 MS. HOSLER: I'm sorry. I have a
13 question. What does "substantiated cause"
14 mean? Can anybody answer that for question for
15 me?
16 MS. GREEN: I can't answer it. I just
17 want to know where you were.
18 MR. ZINOBER: What are you looking at?
19 MS. HOSLER: I'm sorry. Rule 11.2,
20 Subsection (32). It says any other properly,
21 quote, unquote, substantiated cause that is in
22 the best interest of Hillsborough County.
23 MR. ZINOBER: Well, substantiated would
24 simply mean it's been established by a
25 preponderance of the evidence. Cause would be

315
1 -- it's just a catchall.
2 MS. HOSLER: Catchall, okay, in the best
3 interest of Hillsborough County. I would say
4 nay.
5 MR. CANASI: Everybody else was a yea.
6 Okay. I want to go back to 11.2 (26), and I'm
7 going to appeal to the three nays because you
8 understand that if that vote stands, the
9 appellate loses this entire case? Let me see
10 that rule again.
11 MR. TRICHLER: Exhibited actions or
12 conduct prejudicial to good order or
13 detrimental to the interest of Hillsborough
14 County. That's the rule.
15 MR. CANASI: Can we discuss that?
16 MS. HOSLER: Yes. Ms. Green?
17 MS. GREEN: He said no. Point of order,
18 I don't think it's appropriate. It goes
19 outside of Robert's Rules of Order. There was
20 a motion. There was a second. There was a
21 vote. I don't think you get to go back and
22 redo it.
23 MR. ZINOBER: Yes, you can. But one of
24 the people who voted no would have to move to
25 reconsider. And that's Robert's Rules.

316
1 MR. CANASI: Can I hear a motion from one
2 of the people that voted no to reconsider? You
3 can still vote no again, but --
4 MS. CICHON: And open to reconsider if
5 you want to have a conversation around it.
6 MS. HOSLER: I'm sorry. I understand the
7 ramifications of what we are charged with, and
8 I understand a man's career will probably end
9 depending on the outcome of all of this. But I
10 also understand the agency's objective, Ms.
11 Rollins' mission.
12 These children are taken from abusive
13 backgrounds and they are entrusted to the
14 county. I don't think we should have paid
15 county employees, adults, horseplaying and
16 hitting these children. Just watching that
17 video is disturbing to me. And I also feel
18 when -- okay, fine, parents horseplay. I don't
19 agree with it personally.
20 But I believe when you're entrusted to
21 the care of somebody else's children, it's a
22 different standard, whether you're an aunt,
23 you're a babysitter, you're a paid employee.
24 And I feel that behavior was against the
25 mission of the agency. So therefore I see the

317
1 exhibited actions or conduct prejudicial to the
2 good order and of the interest of Hillsborough
3 County.
4 MR. CARBAUGH: My thoughts are, Ms. Green
5 in her closing statement made the comment it's
6 really not about the hitting and if we were
7 focused on whether the witnesses were credible
8 about whether he actually hit her or not,
9 whether the video was credible whether he
10 actually hit her or not, then that might be an
11 issue, but it's not about whether he hit her or
12 not. It's about did he handle it correctly.
13 And it was clearly in violation of NAPPI
14 of how he should have handled that, and so
15 that's one point. Another one is, I put myself
16 in the position of Ms. Rollins. If the media
17 get ahold of that video or a parent of a child
18 that was at Lake Mag watched that video, they
19 would say, "Whoa, that is not where we want our
20 kids to be," and that is certainly detrimental
21 to Hillsborough County. So those are the kind
22 of reasons why I voted that Rule 26 was, in
23 fact, violated.
24 MR. TRICHLER: And I certainly respect
25 and appreciate both of your positions and

318
1 certainly Ms. Rollins from her standpoint of
2 nothing more of a risk-management standpoint.
3 I get that she's got a job to do, she's the
4 head honcho. It's a tough decision, but I
5 understand her position.
6 But after sitting here for, you know,
7 six, seven, eight hours watching the video
8 numerous times, that's just inconclusive to me.
9 I don't think anyone in here can sit here and
10 say for sure, yes, he made contact with that
11 kid's face.
12 Now, if you can, great. I don't -- I
13 would have a hard time believing that and/or a
14 flinch motion. Could he have handled it
15 differently? Sure. But, my gosh, was that
16 something that was detrimental? You saw the
17 kid standing there talking to the guy.
18 The other little girl was standing right
19 there with him. It wasn't such a shock where
20 it was so loud, as the other witnesses
21 testified, that it left -- they could hear it
22 over the music, yet there was no scratches,
23 there was no redness. Everyone seemed okay
24 with it with watching this video.
25 When I first started watching this, I was

319
1 like, "Oh, geez, this does not sound good." I
2 watched it, and I was like, "Let me watch that
3 again. Was this the incident we're talking
4 about here? Okay. I guess this was it. But
5 look at how everyone responded." That, to me,
6 is not an incident where you have something, a
7 bad situation. I don't --
8 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Chairman, if I could
9 interject something here, and I think it's
10 important to do this.
11 MR. CANASI: Sure.
12 MR. ZINOBER: And I certainly would not
13 mind if Ms. Green takes issue with what I have
14 to say. But I've reviewed the CS Form 5 twice
15 tonight. One thing I did not see in there,
16 despite the representations in the opening
17 statement, I saw nothing in there about the
18 concept of an assault as opposed to a battery,
19 nothing in there about raising one's hand in a
20 threatening gesture as opposed to slapping or a
21 hitting.
22 Furthermore, I see nothing whatsoever
23 about not complying with NAPPI. And that
24 concerns me because, you know, as we look down
25 the road to a potential review by a circuit

320
1 court as to whether or not we observed
2 principles of due process, it seems to me that
3 if the board holds Mr. Lawson to a standard of
4 violating NAPPI when, in fact, the CS Form 5
5 doesn't mention NAPPI and doesn't say anything
6 about complying with those regulations, then I
7 think that we might find ourselves in
8 due-process problems.
9 And I will represent to the board that a
10 number of years ago, I think probably long
11 before Ms. Green started working for the county
12 attorney's office, where the CS Form 5 was not
13 broad enough to cover the allegations that the
14 county wanted to present at the hearing, they
15 went back and issued a new Form 5 and issued --
16 and held a new predisciplinary hearing and went
17 through the process a second time. But they
18 couldn't get a violation based upon an
19 inadequate Form 5. I think, if I read the Form
20 5 correctly, that NAPPI is not part of this
21 Form 5.
22 MS. BELL: I agree. And I would just say
23 as well, when we talk about what's detrimental
24 to the agency and to the children there, what's
25 detrimental is Ms. Michelle and Ms. Cynthia in

321
1 my opinion.
2 MR. CANASI: Me too.
3 MS. BELL: Now, Mr. Lawson, like I said
4 before, I don't believe you hit the child. And
5 for those two woman to stand right there and
6 say that they watched you smack a child in the
7 face and they did not flinch, they rest on the
8 chair, they don't get up off their behinds,
9 that is detrimental to the county. And so it
10 could be argued, "Oh, did he hit her, did he
11 not hit her?" But what cannot be argued is the
12 inaction of those two employees and the fact
13 that we're not talking about their
14 representation of this agency and the county.
15 MR. ZINOBER: I think in fairness,
16 Ms. Green is probably going to take issue with
17 what I've just said.
18 MS. GREEN: I do. The word NAPPI, you're
19 right, is not in the four corners. However, if
20 you look at the end, Children's Services
21 Policy, Section 040702010623 entitled,
22 "Approved intervention techniques," which by
23 memory is Exhibit No. 16, but I might be wrong,
24 that policy is all about NAPPI. There's NAPPI
25 all over it.

322
1 MS. BELL: Like I said earlier during
2 testimony, in everything I've learned from
3 reading this over the weekend -- so much fun --
4 if Mr. Lawson did not feel he was being
5 aggressed against, why would he need to
6 implement NAPPI?
7 Now, maybe the child shouldn't have
8 touched him. We're not sitting here talking
9 about how the baby girl is hugging him. We're
10 not talking about that touching.
11 MR. CANASI: Someone we never got to hear
12 from, by the way.
14 MR. CANASI: You know, I can count on
15 this hand and have fingers left over in the two
16 different terms that I've served on this board
17 how many times we've overturned the county.
18 That was back from the early '90s when I was on
19 here and now for the last four or five years
20 that I've been on here.
21 MR. TRICHLER: Very rare.
22 MR. CANASI: And it's rare. And I've got
23 to tell you, if we send that man home for him
24 to tell his five kids that he's no longer got a
25 job with the county, I've got a hard time

323
1 living with that.
2 MS. BELL: When we don't even believe the
3 witnesses.
4 MR. CANASI: We've got witnesses here,
5 two terrible witnesses.
6 MS. BELL: None of us believe the
7 witnesses.
8 MR. CANASI: They were terrible
9 witnesses. And I am not going to sit here and
10 allow this man to lose his job over a
11 technicality, vague little sentence that's in a
12 rule. I'm sorry. It's just not right. I feel
13 dirty about it. And I can only appeal to one
14 of the three of you to please reconsider your
15 vote.
16 MR. TRICHLER: It would be a different
17 story if one of those witnesses was in here and
18 heard testimony, matched the prior testimony
19 and matched the video.
20 MS. HOSLER: Ms. Rollins' testimony, I
21 think --
22 MS. BELL: She wasn't there, and it's her
23 staff.
24 MS. HOSLER: I know what I saw. I don't
25 think it's appropriate for adults to hit

324
1 children. There's no way I'm ever going to
2 vote in favor of that ever.
3 MS. BELL: Me either.
4 MR. TRICHLER: Me neither.
5 MR. CANASI: I just don't think he did
6 that.
7 MS. HOSLER: And I also find it
8 disturbing that she -- I don't know why it
9 happened, but she just walked up and started
10 slapping him. Who does that? Seriously. So
11 has this happened before?
12 MR. CANASI: Children that are in this
13 kind of facility because they've got issues.
14 MS. HOSLER: Why did she feel privileged
15 to do this to this man? I understand she was
16 abused. But you just don't walk up and do
17 this. So has this happened before and she
18 did feel --
19 MR. CANASI: These are different kids,
20 Chandra. I mean, I've been there, and I can
21 tell you they've got uncontrollable impulses at
22 times.
23 MS. HOSLER: They do. But I still don't
24 think it's appropriate for somebody in a
25 care-taking role who is paid by the county to

325
1 touch them. I don't believe children should be
2 touched by adults.
3 MS. CICHON: Where I'm struggling, I do
4 not want you to lose your job. I agree with
5 Mr. Canasi. I don't think the right place is
6 back where you were in that same position. But
7 I do think you've got skills that can be well
8 used elsewhere within the county to keep your
9 position.
10 Where I struggle is our responsibility to
11 your point earlier, there could be 15 things
12 and all it takes is one of them, right, to
13 uphold this. So I am struggling with applying
14 how the rule is written and determining, did
15 you or did you not do that. I could argue -- I
16 don't believe you hit the child. I do believe
17 you. I don't think that happened. I agree the
18 camera angle and the quality is garbage.
19 But do I also understand your perspective
20 that I have a leadership position to protect
21 the children, and God forbid that video got
22 out and the perception to the news, the media
23 or a parent, the detriment of the interest of
24 Hillsborough County, that line in Section 26 is
25 where I'm getting held up on.

326
1 I don't want you to lose your job, I want
2 to you stay employed elsewhere. But if we are
3 upholding line by line what is written in here,
4 that's where I'm having a hard time right now.
5 MS. HOSLER: I would say if that was my
6 child, I would be -- it would be hell if that
7 was my child in the video.
8 MS. CICHON: But I think what we've
9 learned today is, you're not the only person at
10 fault for not upholding the policies and
11 procedures 100 percent of the time. Could I
12 argue to hold you to a higher standard because
13 you're in a leadership position? Yes. I can
14 see that perspective. There's staff. You're
15 in a leadership position.
16 But I also think the two testimonies that
17 we heard today, that we could arguably throw
18 out. They're also not following policies and
19 procedures and not being held accountable. So
20 I'm very much struggling with us being a
21 divided board to make a decision on --
22 MR. CANASI: It's hard enough that these
23 folks have to be there to monitor these
24 children and now you're asking somebody,
25 "Listen, besides monitoring all of these kids,

327
1 you've got to monitor all of the people that
2 work here too?"
3 I mean, do your job. Don't stand around
4 there with a phone in your hand doing this,
5 another one sitting in a chair, another one --
6 I'm sorry.
7 MR. TRICHLER: Two in the back weren't
8 really even watching.
9 MR. CANASI: Listen, I've got three kids,
10 and I can sit here on a stack of bibles and
11 tell you I have never physically handled one of
12 my three child ever, ever.
13 MS. HOSLER: Lots of parents go through
14 life without physically handling their
15 children. That's not normal.
16 MR. CANASI: And I look at that video,
17 and I am telling you, in my heart what I see is
18 a reflexive reaction. I don't see someone
19 striking a child, especially when she's still
20 there talking to him, and that we never get to
21 hear from the child that stood right there and
22 saw the entire thing.
23 I'm sorry. We don't have a complete
24 picture of what really happened. And if that's
25 the case, then we should not keep this man from

328
1 being able to feed his family. It's just the
2 way I feel about it.
3 MS. BELL: And I would appeal as well --
4 and I think you're in a slightly different
5 situation than the two of you are. I think the
6 two of you do not believe he struck the child.
7 I don't think that's necessarily the way you
8 feel.
9 So what I would appeal to you is:
10 Considering the credibility issues, considering
11 we're talking about this man's career and
12 livelihood, considering the way this agency
13 handled all of the other parties involved, I
14 would appeal to you to consider, while it might
15 not be perfectly in line with what we're
16 reading, that we should not burn his life down
17 over kind of a technicality. That would be my
18 appeal to you.
19 MS. CICHON: Let me ask this. So if one
20 of the three of us are to change our
21 perspective on No. 26 --
22 MR. TRICHLER: He is good to go.
23 MS. CICHON: To Ms. Green's perspective
24 earlier, help me understand. Is he guaranteed
25 reinstatement in his current position, or what

329
1 flexibility do we have to say you are going to
2 keep your job with the county but you are not
3 going back to where you came from?
4 MS. HOSLER: He goes back to where he
5 comes from. It's an all or nothing, we don't
6 get to say.
7 MR. CANASI: Well, that's not necessarily
8 correct either.
9 MS. CICHON: Are we setting him up for
10 success to return back --
11 MR. CANASI: I am sure that if we vote to
12 reinstate him as a county employee and that he,
13 you know, goes back, that the minute this
14 happens, that there will be a meeting with
15 Children's Services telling him,
16 "Congratulations, you're reinstated, but we're
17 going to work with HR, you're going someplace
18 else." We all know that's going to happen.
19 MS. HOSLER: Is that going to happen?
20 How is that happening?
21 MS. CICHON: Has that happened before?
22 MR. CANASI: It has happened before. We
23 know it has happened before. Remember the
24 gentleman that we had here before? I forget
25 what his name is.

330
1 MS. GREEN: They looked to me for an
2 answer.
3 MR. ZINOBER: You really can't --
4 MS. GREEN: I know. But you see them do
5 that, right? I'm not just jumping in for fun.
6 MS. CICHON: And my intent in asking
7 that question is to ensure we're not setting
8 him up for failure. Right? So if we're
9 changing how we're analyzing and applying, did
10 he or did he not impact the detriment of
11 Hillsborough County by his actions on the
12 video, whether we believe he did or didn't
13 strike a child, if we're upholding the Line No.
14 26 and we say, "Fine, we're going to reinstate
15 him," I would like to better understand that
16 there is or isn't flexibility that he stays
17 with the county and not directly back in his
18 position, because I do believe if that was the
19 only outcome, we are setting him up for failure
20 based on all of the testimony we've heard
21 today.
22 MR. ZINOBER: Let me say this. There's
23 always discretion that the county has in
24 negotiating with an appellant who prevails.
25 There's always that discretion. The board has

331
1 no discretion. The board cannot mandate or
2 dictate what the county does.
3 MR. CANASI: And I would presume that Mr.
4 Lawson himself isn't going to go to the county
5 and say, "Let me stay where I'm at. I'm happy
6 there, I'm doing my job. Let me just stay
7 where I'm at." He's not going to go back to it
8 and -- I'm not saying that it's a toxic
9 environment. For him it's a toxic environment,
10 and he's not going to go back there.
11 MR. ZINOBER: Let me say this. Before
12 that ever happened, there are avenues of
13 review, judicial review, and we would have to
14 assume, as strongly as the views are held here,
15 that whoever is unsuccessful is likely to
16 appeal unless an accommodation can be worked
17 out. But it's not our role to prescribe what
18 the accommodation is. Yes?
19 MS. GREEN: I would just like to add,
20 Pete, that in the event that the order is that
21 no violations occurred, the order will require
22 the county to reinstate him back to his same
23 position, and if we don't, he can challenge
24 that order in court?
25 MR. ZINOBER: Yes, absolutely.

332
1 MS. BELL: Mr. Lawson?
2 MR. LAWSON: And even if I'm fine with
3 negotiating and going elsewhere, even if it's
4 back to Pet Resources, would that be --
5 MR. ZINOBER: The board has a statute.
6 We operate within the scope of what our law
7 tells us we can do from a standpoint of a
8 remedy that we can prescribe if we rule in
9 favor of an appellant.
10 We simply have the ability to order that
11 he be put -- he or she be placed in the same
12 position he or she would have been in had the
13 termination not occurred, and then that's the
14 limit of what our authority is. What happens
15 thereafter really is up to the appellant and
16 the county to decide what to do. That's not
17 something we have any control over.
18 MS. BELL: If I could just do a
19 hypothetical. You're reinstated. Tomorrow
20 you're going to go back to work. Andrea, you
21 work in HR. Any way in hell you're going to
22 let that happen based on this situation if he's
23 one of your employees?
24 MS. CICHON: My employer might be
25 different than how this functions. However,

333
1 given the background information, we would deem
2 it not to be a proper fit, that they would work
3 within certain parameters, 30, 60 or 90 days,
4 to find a new home. However, that's not a
5 guarantee.
6 MS. BELL: Absolutely.
7 MS. CICHON: Because any receiving
8 manager on any different business unit is going
9 to say, "Why did he work out there, and what
10 makes you think he's going to be successful
11 here?" And you are estimating a bit of an
12 uphill battle to make that placement given
13 this, just full transparency.
14 MR. CANASI: However, he does have
15 history in another department already that he
16 had been working at.
17 MS. CICHON: Right.
18 MS. BELL: If he were to be reinstated,
19 I'm thinking, I'm hypothesizing that whoever is
20 in charge, HR, talent management, whatever,
21 they're not going to say, "Congratulations.
22 You're reinstated, we're going to have you go
23 dig ditches, go get your boots."
24 They're going to talk to you, and they're
25 going to say, "Okay. Here we are. Let's talk

334
1 and let's come to a mutual understanding," just
2 like you guys did with your joint going through
3 who said what and all of that. Can I guarantee
4 that that's going to happen? Can this board
5 guarantee that that's going to happen? No.
6 The rule is you go back to where you came from.
7 That's the rule.
8 But I don't think about anybody -- talk
9 about a detriment to the county. Let it get on
10 the news that there was this allegation, you
11 were reinstated and, just to get back at you,
12 they said, "We're going to put you right back
13 in there with those same kids." That's not
14 going to happen, I don't believe.
15 So I don't think he would be a risk, and
16 I am sure that the county has resources to make
17 sure that he is not put at a disadvantage and
18 that he's able to continue to be a productive
19 county employee.
20 MS. CICHON: I would imagine the
21 reinstatement, though, must state something
22 about equal or higher, right, or there's no
23 percentage of decrease that would come or job
24 responsibilities that he has to take?
25 MS. BELL: Yes.

335
1 MS. HOSLER: So to be clear, he's being
2 reinstated to his former position with this
3 agency, not in a similar position within
5 MR. CANASI: Right.
6 MS. BELL: Correct.
7 MS. HOSLER: Okay. Our plan is that once
8 he's reinstated, he'll apply for something else
9 somewhere else? I don't think we --
10 MS. BELL: We don't know and we don't
11 care. We don't know and we don't care. My
12 point is simply that while the rule is he will
13 be reinstated to where he came from at the
14 level he was and so forth --
15 MS. HOSLER: Yes.
16 MS. BELL: -- no HR in their right mind
17 is going to accept that without talking to Mr.
18 Lawson, saying, "Were you happy in Pet
19 Resources? What do you think about this
20 other?"
21 I believe -- and I work for the federal
22 government -- that he will say, "Hey, I saw
23 that there was a vacancy over on the
24 Hillsborough County Civil Service Board," or
25 whatever, and they're going to come to some

336
1 kind of agreement.
2 MS. HOSLER: I don't think it works that
3 way. I'm a former county employee.
4 MS. BELL: I don't know if it will.
5 MS. HOSLER: Correct me, it's been a long
6 time. But, if I remember correctly, you have
7 to re-apply for every position. So if there
8 was a position open, say, with Pet Resources,
9 you would have to apply, you would have to
10 interview. No?
11 MS. BELL: I don't even care.
12 MS. CICHON: How does the transfer work,
13 then? Can you educate us so that we know what
14 we're talking about?
15 MS. GREEN: I think what's being
16 contemplated around the table is some sort of
17 negotiation process, which I don't think is
18 outside of the realm of possibility. The
19 concern is both parties have to reach a mutual
20 agreement to whatever it is for the employment
21 outside of the RSC position in Lake Mag.
22 And so that requires management to be
23 okay and find blah, blah, blah, which you
24 commented on. But it also requires the
25 employee to be okay. And if the employee is

337
1 not okay with whatever it is and no agreement
2 is reached, ultimately his recourse is to sue
3 the county for failure to comply with your
4 order to reinstate him back as an RSC on
5 Children's Services campus.
6 MS. BELL: Mr. Lawson, do you understand
7 that if you are reinstated, you are going back
8 to the position you held on the night of March
9 3rd?
10 MR. LAWSON: I understand. I will be
11 requesting to go elsewhere, but I do
12 understand.
13 MS. BELL: Perfect. So you understand?
14 You understand that this board is not making
15 you any promises that we're going to find you
16 another job?
18 MS. BELL: We hope that you find a job
19 that you are able to be successful at and you
20 are able to provide for your family, but we are
21 not making any promises?
22 MR. LAWSON: Yes. I know.
23 MS. BELL: And you understand that you
24 are going back to the same position you had on
25 March 3rd?

338
1 MR. LAWSON: Yes.
2 MR. CANASI: Our work here tonight, if
3 you prevail, is that you are still employed
4 with the county. We just don't know and, quite
5 frankly, don't care where. It's between you
6 and HR.
7 MS. BELL: Don't care.
8 MR. LAWSON: Understood.
9 MR. CANASI: It would behoove you, of
10 course, to cooperate with HR and come to a
11 happy medium.
12 MR. LAWSON: I agree.
13 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Chairman, you may want
14 to call the question at this point on the
15 reasons -- there's been a motion for
16 reconsideration.
17 MR. CANASI: We've already voted on the
18 motion for reconsideration. Right?
19 MR. ZINOBER: So now we're reconsidering
20 the vote on Rule 11.2 (26).
21 MS. GREEN: Was there a motion on that?
22 MR. ZINOBER: Yes, there was.
23 MS. BELL: On the reconsideration, yes.
24 MS. GREEN: There was a motion to
25 reconsider, but there wasn't a motion to

339
1 revote --
2 MR. CANASI: We had a motion and a
3 second. Let's vote to reconsider the previous
4 vote on 11.2(26).
5 MR. CARBAUGH: Before we actually make
6 another vote, one other comment -- and I agree
7 with the rest of the board. I'm very
8 frustrated that it took five months for this
9 process. I'm frustrated that the sheriff's
10 office and the CPI said no issues, the child
11 herself said no issues and, yet, somehow they
12 decided to dismiss this guy.
13 I'm frustrated that it wasn't just a
14 counseling, say, "Hey next time, put your hands
15 up. Don't swing at her," or don't whatever,
16 and none of this would have even happened, so
17 there's a lot of failures.
18 One of the biggest ones -- and I don't
19 think it's come up enough yet -- is CPI, which
20 has the highest level of credibility based on
21 what every witness has testified, they only
22 interviewed the witnesses that HR told them to
23 interview. And you would think that as a CPI
24 investigator, if you looked at that tape, you
25 would be able to pick out at least one, if not

340
1 two or three other people, you go, "Yeah, I've
2 definitely got to interview that person."
3 MS. BELL: We wonder why he thinks
4 they're after him. We wonder why he thinks in
5 one of his statements that, "Hey, I kind of
6 feel like I'm targeted." No kidding.
7 MR. CANASI: That's another reason to
8 reconsider that vote. I mean, we heard the CPI
9 guy when he looked at that video. He himself
10 discredited one of the witnesses he interviewed
11 and realized that that girl that was standing
12 next to Mr. Lawson the whole time was -- and I
13 said it right there. "There's your eyewitness,
14 never interviewed."
15 Let's move on to the reconsideration on
16 the previous vote of 11.2(26). All in favor of
17 the reconsideration, signify by saying aye.
18 Any opposed?
19 MR. CARBAUGH: That's a revoting? We're
20 going to revote?
21 MR. CANASI: Now we're going to revote on
22 it. So now we're going to have to have a
23 motion.
24 MR. TRICHLER: I will make a motion that
25 the appointing authority did not prove a

341
1 violation of Rule 11.2, Sub (26).
2 MS. BELL: Second.
4 second. All in favor of the motion, signify by
6 MS. HOSLER: Nay.
8 MR. CANASI: We have two nays.
9 MR. ZINOBER: And that would be Members
10 Carbaugh and Hosler. Correct?
11 MR. CANASI: That's correct, yes. So
12 let's go to 11.2(1). That's the catchall.
13 MR. TRICHLER: I make a motion that the
14 appointing authority did not prove a violation
15 of Rule 11.2, Sub (1).
18 second. All in favor signify by saying aye.
19 Any opposed?
21 MR. CANASI: Hosler, did you vote?
22 MS. HOSLER: I was in favor.
23 MR. ZINOBER: So that would be Member
24 Carbaugh being the one nay.
25 MR. CANASI: Let's turn the sheet over.

342
1 I need a motion on HR 7.5. Is that the
2 catchall?
3 MS. BELL: Yes.
4 MS. GREEN: Wait, wait. 7.5 isn't the
5 catchall. 7.5 a policy, it's in your exhibits.
6 MR. CANASI: A motion and a second on HR
7 7.5?
9 there was no violation of HR 7.5.
13 MR. CARBAUGH: I see Joint Exhibit 14,
14 Page 204, Joint Exhibit 14.
15 MR. TRICHLER: Page 204.
18 Any opposed?
20 MS. HOSLER: Nay.
21 MR. CANASI: Two nays. Okay. HR 7.6
22 (1)?
23 MS. BELL: That was the catchall.
24 MR. TRICHLER: That's the catchall.
25 MR. CANASI: HR 7.6 (2).

343
1 MR. TRICHLER: I will make a motion there
2 was no violation of HR 7.6, Sub (2).
3 MS. BELL: Second.
6 Any opposed? No oppositions?
9 MS. BELL: Second.
12 Any opposed? Unanimous.
18 Any opposed?
24 Any opposed?
25 MR. TRICHLER: I'll make a motion there

344
2 MS. BELL: Second.
5 Any opposed?
6 MS. HOSLER: Nay.
7 MR. CANASI: We've got one nay.
13 Any opposed?
15 MS. CHANDLER: Nay.
16 MR. ZINOBER: Two nays.
22 Any opposed? Unanimous.
23 MR. TRICHLER: The last one.
24 MR. CANASI: Catchall.

345
1 there was no violation of HR 7.6, Sub (1).
2 MS. BELL: Second.
5 Any opposed?
7 MS. HOSLER: Nay.
8 MR. CANASI: Two nays.
9 MR. ZINOBER: That would be Members
10 Carbaugh and Hosler.
11 MR. CANASI: Congratulations, Mr. Lawson.
12 You have prevailed. The board wishes you
13 godspeed and lots of luck, sir.
14 MR. LAWSON: Thank you all.
15 MR. ZINOBER: Mr. Lawson, just for your
16 information, procedurally my staff and I -- my
17 staff is sitting out there in the audience.
18 Ms. Askren and I will draft an order reflecting
19 the findings of fact and conclusions of law of
20 the board. We will circulate that among the
21 board members.
22 Once the board signs that order, then the
23 county has 30 days within which to appeal to
24 the circuit court. They still have the right
25 to appeal to the circuit court if they are not

346
1 satisfied with this result or they can contact
2 you. But we are not involved in those
3 discussions.
4 MR. LAWSON: Understood.
5 MR. ZINOBER: So, you know, these things
6 rarely happen overnight. The first step is to
7 prepare the order.
8 MR. LAWSON: Okay.
9 MR. CANASI: The meeting is adjourned.
10 (Proceedings concluded at 2:10 a.m.)
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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
3 STATE OF FLORIDA:
4 COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH:
6 I, Sherry L. Frain, certify that I was
7 authorized to and did stenographically report the
8 foregoing proceedings and that the transcript is a
9 true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
10 I further certify that I am not a relative,
11 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the
12 parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of
13 the parties' attorney or counsel connected with the
14 action, nor am I financially interested in the
15 action.
16 DATED November 6, 2018.
17
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Civil Service Board Rules
Download and view the PDF Rules document.
Civil Service Board Act

 Description
 Section 1. Supersedes Chapter 85-424, Laws of Florida
 Section 2. Statement of Policy
 Section 3. Short Title
 Section 4. Application
 Section 5. Definitions
 Section 6. Classes of Employees
 Section 7. Creation of Civil Service Board; Method of Conducting Business; Powers and Duties
 Section 8. Initial Employment Lists; Promotional Lists
 Section 9. Creation and Abolition of Positions; Filling Vacancies
 Section 10. Probationary Period; Tenure
 Section 11. Suspension; Demotion; Dismissal
 Section 12. Appeal Hearing Procedure
 Section 13. Administrative Office of the Courts; Hearing to Review Action of Dismissal, Demotion, or Suspension
 Section 14. Recommendation and Adoption of Classification and Pay Plans

 Section 15. Appropriation for Civil Service
 Section 16. Creation of Review Committee; Transition
 Section 17. Fiscal Responsibility
 Section 18. Prohibited Activities
 Section 19. Restriction on Individual Qualifying for Public Political Office
 Section 20. Employee Advisory Committee
 Section 21. Violation of Act; Penalty
 Section 22. Recodification
 Section 23. Severability
 Section 24. Chapters 96-519, 97-342, 97-343, 97-349, 97-350, 98-450, 98-481, and 99-415, Laws of Florida, are
repealed.
 Section 25. This Act Shall Take Effect Upon Becoming A Law.
 House Bill 1649. 2000
 House Bill 1397. 2007
 House Bill 683. 2014
Description
2000-445
An act relating to Hillsborough County; consolidating, compiling, codifying, revising for the purposes of clarifying, and
streamlining the extant law; vesting standard business practices in law and removing gender-specific references; continuing
rights, privileges, and benefits accrued by certain employees; retaining membership in the classified service except under certain
circumstances, and amending chapter 96-519, Laws of Florida, as amended, relating to the Civil Service Act; providing a
statement of policy; providing a short title; providing mandatory and optional applicability of the act; providing, listing in a single
section, and adding definitions for purposes of clarification; describing classes of employees and specifying those to whom the
act is applicable; creating a civil service board and providing; listing in a single section, and adding powers and duties to vest in
law standard business practices of the district not previously enumerated and deleting the requirement that prospective employees
be ranked in accordance with relative qualifications; providing for the establishment and use of initial employment lists and
promotional lists and deleting the requirement that employment eligibility lists be canceled after six months; requiring that the
duration of employment eligibility lists be established by rule; providing for the creation and abolition of positions and the filling
of vacancies; providing for a probationary period and tenure; providing for the suspension, demotion, and dismissal of
employees; providing for an appeal hearing procedure; providing for disciplinary hearings for certain employees of the
administrative office of the Thirteenth Judicial Circuit but paid from funds of the county; providing for recommendation and
adoption of classification and pay plans; providing an appropriation for the board; providing for a committee to review extant
rules; providing for fiscal responsibility; prohibiting certain activities; providing restrictions on individuals qualifying for elective
office; providing for an employee advisory committee; deleting the requirement that the board undergo regularly recurring
performance audits mandated by special act; providing criminal penalties for violation of the act; providing for future review of

the act; providing severability; repealing chapters 96-519; 97-342, 97-343, 97-349, 97-350, 98-450, 98-481, and 99-415, Laws of
Florida, relating to the Civil Service Act and performance audits of the board; providing an effective date.
Be I t Enacted by the Legislature of the State of Florida:
Section 1.
This act supersedes Chapter 96-519, Laws of Florida, which establishes and provides for the Hillsborough County Civil Service
Act, and all acts amendatory or supplementary thereto, and constitutes a consolidation, compilation, and codification of all laws
expressly repealed by this act which pertain to the Hillsborough County Civil Service Act. This act guarantees continuance of all
rights, privileges, or benefits accrued by any classified employee as a result of employment prior to the effective date of this act.
Any position in the classified service as defined by Chapter 82-301, Laws of Florida, through September 30, 1985, and which
was occupied through that date, but which became exempt upon the effective date of chapter 85-424, Laws of Florida, may
remain in the classified service pursuant to the provisions of this act until the occurrence of any one of the following: request by
said person to be transferred to the exempt service; dismissal by the appointing authority; resignation; or retirement.
Section 2. Statement of Policy
It is the purpose of this act to establish a system for the formulation and implementation of procedures to ensure the uniform
administration of the classified service on the following merit principles:
1. Recruitment, selection, compensation, benefits, and advancement of employees on the basis of their relative job-related
ability, knowledge, skills, and personal capabilities, including open consideration of qualified applicants for initial
appointment.
2. Retention of employees on the basis of the adequacy of their performance, allowing for correction of inadequate
performance when possible and separation of employees whose inadequate performance has not been corrected.
3. Fair treatment of applicants and employees in all aspects of personnel administration without regard to age, sex, race,
religion, national origin, political affiliation, marital status, or disability except when specific sex, age, or physical
requirement is a bona fide occupational qualification.
Section 3. Short Title
This act may be cited as the “Civil Service Act of 2000.”
Section 4. Application
The provisions of this act apply to all classified personnel employed by the following agencies or authorities within the county:
the commission, county administrator, clerk of the circuit court, supervisor of elections, property appraiser, tax collector, sheriff,
environmental protection commission, aviation authority, port authority, planning commission, public transportation commission,
expressway authority, law library, legislative delegation, soil and water conservation district, civil service board, sports authority,

children’s board, county attorney, arts council, victim assistance, and any other agency or authority not expressly exempt from
this act. Each municipality in the county, the judiciary, and the District School Board of the county are expressly exempt from
this act until and unless each executes an interlocal agreement with the Civil Service Board pursuant to general law. Positions
within the Administrative Office of the Courts which were classified as of January 1, 1998, and which are funded by the county,
are subject to section 13 of this act.
Section 5.
Definitions as used in this act:
1. “Appointing authority” means any person or agency authorized under this act or other statutory authority to employ
personnel to carry out the responsibilities of the agency.
2. “Appointment” means selection by an appointing authority of a certified eligible person to perform assigned duties and
responsibilities in a specified position in the classified service.
3. “Benefits plan” means a schedule of employment benefits to include all leave and holidays.
4. “Board” means the county Civil Service Board.
5. “Budget authority” means any agency or authority to which this act applies and which is empowered to develop and
adopt its budget without approval by any other agency or authority.
6. “Certification” means the process of providing the names of those eligible for a class of positions to be considered in
filling a vacancy.
7. “Certified employment list” means employment eligibility lists and promotion eligibility lists.
8. “Civil Service” means that part of the employment system within Hillsborough County to which this act is applicable
pursuant to section 4.
9. “Classified employee” means an employee whose position is subject to the rights contained in this act and in rules
adopted by the board.
10. “Class of positions / classifications” means all positions that are sufficiently similar as to kind or subject matter of
work, level of difficulty or responsibilities, and qualification requirements of the work to warrant the same treatment as
to title, pay range, and other personnel transactions.
11. “Classification plan” means a document that formally describes the concepts, rules, and class specifications used in the
classification and reclassification of positions in the classified service.
12. “Commission” means the board of county commissioners of the county.
13. “County” means Hillsborough County, Florida .
14. “Demotion” means moving an employee from a position in one class to a position in another class having a lesser
degree of responsibility and lower pay grade.
15. “Dismissal” means the discharge of an employee from the service by the appointing authority.
16. “Executive manager” means a position so designated by any appointing authority. The identifying characteristics of an
executive manager position are:
1. Having primary responsibility for the administration of a department or division that is major in scope in
terms of a countywide program except as may be limited by municipal programs.

2. Being entrusted with developmental and confidential information and high level responsibility for:
1. Program research, development, implementation, and monitorship
2. Formulation of policies
3. Day-to-day operations, administration, and departmental or divisional decision making
17. “Exempt employee” which may be used interchangeably with an “unclassified employee” and means an employee
whose position is subject to any rights provided by the employee’s appointing authority and who is enumerated in
section 6(2).
18. “Grievance” means any dispute or disagreement between an employee and management involving wages, hours of
work, or conditions of employment.
19. “Initial probationary period” means a period of six months of conditional employment in the same position, which may
be extended for an additional six months during which time an employee may be dismissed without appeal to the
board.
20. “Leave” means absence of a classified employee from employment authorized by the appointing authority in
accordance with rules adopted by the board.
21. “Part-time employee” means an employee who works less than 50 percent of the normal work period.
22. “Pay plan” means a document containing one or more salary schedules.
23. “Promotion” means moving an employee from a position in one class to a position in another class having a greater
degree of responsibility and a higher pay grade.
24. “Reduction in force” means dismissal, for reasons including, but not limited to, shortage of funds, abolition of a
position, or material changes in job duties or organizational structure in accordance with rules adopted by the board.
25. “Reemployment” means appointment of a person who was dismissed due to reduction in force in accordance with rules
adopted by the board.
26. “Resignation” means that an employee voluntarily elects to terminate the employee’s employment.
27. “Salary schedule” means a document which is adopted by the annual budget process or which is established by a
collective bargaining or impasse procedure. Salary schedules must be adopted or established by any budget authority
for those employees whose positions it funds and who are subject to the terms of this act. A salary schedule must
include the salary range and a minimum and a maximum rate of pay and any intermediate points within a salary range.
28. “Substitute employee” means an employee who is temporarily employed to fill the position of a permanently employed
person who is on approved leave. A substitute employee may not fill any given position for a period exceeding 120
calendar days after the first day of appointment by the appointing authority.
29. “Suspension” means the removal of an employee from the service for a temporary period of time.
30. “Temporary employee” means an employee whose employment is not intended to exceed 120 calendar days after the
first day of appointment by the appointing authority.
31. “Tenure” means a status granted after successful completion of an initial probationary period, entitling the employee to
all rights and protections provided in this act.
32. “Transfer” means the change of an employee from one position to another position.
Section 6. Classes of Employees

1. The employees of all agencies subject to this act are divided into the classified service and the exempt service.
2. The following classes of employment are exempt from the classified service and are subject to any rights provided by
their appointing authority. The exempt service includes:
1. All elected officials and those appointed by the governor.
2. Members of any board, authority, or commission.
3. Physicians and attorneys-at-law.
4. Executive managers.
5. Temporary, part-time, and substitute employees.
6. Secretaries of and administrative aides to the county attorney, the chief executive officer of any board,
authority, or commission, and each elected official.
Section 7. Creation of the Board; Method of Conducting Business; Pow ers & Duties
1. There is created in the county a board known as the Hillsborough County Civil Service Board. The board shall consist
of seven members who are qualified electors of the county; however, no person may be appointed to serve who is either
an elected official or an employee of any appointing authority. Each appointment, except one made to fill an unexpired
term, shall be for a period of four years. Each member shall continue to serve until the expiration of that member’s term
and until a successor has been appointed. The absence of a board member from more than 50 percent of the board’s
scheduled meetings during any calendar year constitutes his or her resignation. Upon death, resignation, or removal of
a member, a successor shall be appointed for the unexpired portion of that member’s term. All appointments shall be
made by the governor, subject to confirmation by the senate. Members shall serve without compensation, but, may be
reimbursed for certain expenses as provided in this act. The clerk of the circuit court shall serve as secretary ex officio
and is not entitled to any salary or additional compensation for that service.
2. The board shall:
1. Conduct the business of the district, including establishing an annual budget.
2. Encumber and expend the funds appropriated for the purposes of this act, utilizing the policies and practices
of the departments under the commission.
3. Adopt and amend rules for the uniform administration of this act following a minimum of 30 days’ notice of
the proposed rule to each appointing authority.
4. Meet at least once every two months to properly handle its business in accordance with the intent and
purposes of this act, which meetings shall be open to the public in accordance with general law.
5. Adopt written bylaws for its internal governance, including the election of a chair and vice chair, and written
standard operating procedures for its internal operations as may be required.
6. Employ, discipline, and terminate a director and such other personnel as necessary to carry out the purposes
of this act and within the scope of its budget. The director must meet the following minimum qualifications:
graduation from an accredited four-year college or university with completion of a major course of study in
business administration, public administration, psychology, or a related field; and at least five years of
progressively responsible personnel experience, including three years in a responsible supervisory position.

The director should possess broad knowledge of all aspects of personnel management. The director shall
perform duties required by the board.
7. Employ, discipline, and terminate or contract for legal counsel as may be needed and within the scope of its
budget.
8. Offer its employees the same benefits, which must include a retirement plan and life and health insurance
plans and may include such other options as cafeteria-style health care provisions and one or more deferred
income plans, as the commission offers its employees and under the same terms and conditions as provided
by general law or policy of the commission.
9. Authorize any of is employees to attend conferences and travel on behalf of the board and reimburse those
employees for conference costs and travel and per diem expenses in accordance with general law.
10. Upon submission of appropriate documentation and upon request, reimburse any member of the board for per
diem and mileage in connection with the performance of his or her official duties and in accordance with
general law.
11. Deputize and designate, in any agency containing more than 500 classified positions, the person in charge of
personnel in that agency as the agent for the board who shall perform duties delegated by the board.
12. Ascertain and record the qualifications, duties, and responsibilities appertaining to all positions in the
classified service and classify such positions in accordance with the requirements contained in this act.
13. Recruit personnel for all classified positions, determine the qualifications of persons who seek employment in
any class or position, and, as a result, establish certified employment lists for the classes of positions.
14. Establish a system for evaluation of performance.
15. Adopt classification, benefit, and pay plans for classified positions as provided in this act.
16. Establish guidelines for leave without prior board approval for up to a period of 12 months. An extension
may be granted by the appointing authority only if said appointing authority certifies to the board before the
expiration of the initial period that the extension is not an avoidance of the duty to properly fill a classified
position.
17. Establish and maintain a roster of classified employees, including appointments, resignations, promotions,
and transfers.
18. Make investigations concerning the enforcement and effect of this act, and require observance of the
provisions and rules adopted under it.
19. Establish provisions and procedures for employee grievances, including appeals to the board. Such
procedures may provide for appeals to be heard by three-member panels of the board.
20. Hear and determine appeals from disciplinary actions as provided in this act.
21. Establish a procedure for reductions in force and a method for reemployment.
22. Keep records necessary for the proper administration of this act and make copies of those records available
upon request in accordance with general law except those which may be exempt pursuant to general law.
23. Make an annual report to be distributed to all appointing authorities.
24. Contract for performance audits as may be required by law.
25. Perform all other acts as may be necessary to accomplish the purposes of this act.

Section 8. I nitial Employment Lists; Promotional Lists
1. The board shall establish employment eligibility lists for the various classifications in the classified service. The
qualifications, duties, pay, and experience applicable to the classification shall be posted by the board two weeks
preceding the establishment of such list. The list shall contain the names of all persons certified by tests or other
evaluative procedures. The resulting employment list shall be published within 15 working days after the last day of the
two-week notification period. The board shall establish by rule the duration of each employment eligibility list. Scores
shall be valid for a minimum of two years. However, the board may cancel any list when such list, in the board’s
opinion, fails to provide suitable candidates for the classification to be filled. An error in the assessment of any
applicant’s qualifications shall be corrected if called to the attention of the board within 30 days after notification by
the board to the applicant. If an employee has satisfactorily completed a six-month probationary period, such correction
shall not invalidate any appointment made as a result of the error.
2. The board shall establish promotion eligibility lists to fill vacancies in classifications whenever there is a lower
classification, the duties of which directly tend to fit the incumbents thereof for the performance of the duties of the
higher classification. An employee who has not completed the initial probationary period is not eligible for status on a
promotion list.
Section 9. Creation & Abolition of Positions; Filling Vacancies
1. Each appointing authority shall promptly report to the board its intention to establish any new position that may be
classified, and the board shall respond in accordance with the provisions of this act.
2. Whenever a position in the classified service becomes vacant, the appointing authority may ask the board for the
appropriate eligibility list. All classified appointments shall be made from persons certified by the board as eligible.
Appointments shall be regarded as taking effect upon the date the person selected reports for duty.
3. A temporary employee, as defined in Section 5, need not be on a certified eligibility list but must meet minimum
qualifications for the classification of the position to which appointed. An appointing authority may make any
temporary appointment without board approval; however, the board must be promptly notified of any such
appointment. One extension of not more than 120 calendar days may be granted by certification to the board before the
expiration of the initial 120-calendar-day appointment by the appointing authority as not being an avoidance of the duty
to properly fill a valid classified position. Any further extension must receive the prior approval of the board.
4. A substitute employee, as defined in Section 5, need not be on a certified eligibility list but must meet minimum
qualifications for the classification of the position to which appointed.
5. A written report shall be given immediately to the board and to each affected employee by each appointing authority of
all appointments, reinstatements, vacancies, absences, or other matters affecting the status of positions or the
performance of duties of officers or employees in the classified service. Such notices shall be prepared in the manner
and form prescribed by the board.
6. A position in the classified service may not be abolished without the approval of the board. Positions may be abolished
only in good faith.

Section 10. Probationary Period; Tenure
1. All employees in the classified service are entitled to the protection of this act when they have successfully completed
their initial probationary period, whether the probationary period began before or after the effective date of this act. It is
the intent and purpose of this act to give the protection of tenure of employment to any classified employee of any
appointing authority who has successfully completed the initial probationary period. Any person dismissed during the
initial probationary period is not entitled to an appeal hearing before the board.
2. Whenever a position in the classified service is filled by promotion, the person so promoted shall serve a period of
conditional employment of 6 months in the new position, which may be extended for an additional period of up to 6
months at the discretion of the appointing authority. However, if the probationary period and any extension thereof are
not successfully completed, such person shall forthwith be returned to duty to the former classification held in the civil
service, provided such person has served the initial probationary period. Unsuccessful completion of a probationary
period in a position of promotion is not appealable to the board.
1. Any classified employee, upon transferring to another classified position, may not incur loss of benefits,
including, but not limited to, pensions and leave.
2. Any employee who is employed in an exempt position by an agency or authority within the county and who
transfers to a classified position may not incur loss of benefits, including, but not limited to, pensions and
leaves.
Section 11. Suspension; Demotions; Dismissal
1. Any nontenured employee in the classified service may be suspended, demoted, or dismissed for any reason.
2. Any appointing authority may suspend, demote, or dismiss a tenured employee following written notice to the
employee of the intended action, detailing the reasons therefor and providing an opportunity to respond thereto at an
informal predisciplinary hearing scheduled for that purpose. The hearing must be scheduled no sooner than 5 working
days after the date of notice of intent to discipline unless the employee waives this time and requests an earlier hearing.
If the final decision is to discipline, the appointing authority must provide written notice to the employee as soon as
possible following the hearing.
3. Any employee may be suspended immediately, with or without pay and without the benefit of advance written notice,
upon determination by the appointing authority that such suspension is in the best interest of the county. The appointing
authority must provide written notice to the employee as soon as possible and give the employee the opportunity to be
heard as required in subsection (2).
4. Any employee who has satisfactorily completed the initial probationary period and is thereafter suspended, demoted, or
dismissed from employment may request a hearing to appeal that disciplinary action by making a written request to the
board within 10 calendar days after the official date of receipt of the final notice to discipline. The request for an appeal
hearing must state clearly and simply the reason or reasons the employee believes the disciplinary action was not
justified and must be received by the board within the 10-day limit, and the board must send a copy to the affected
appointing authority within 3 working days after receipt thereof.

5. The board may reverse the appointing authority’s decision and restore the employee to that employee’s former status
only if it finds that the suspension, demotion, or dismissal was made for a reason other than just cause. The director, or
a member of the board on behalf of the board, shall provide a letter to the affected parties within 10 days after the
appeal hearing, setting forth its findings and conclusions and the specific reasons therefor.
Section 12. Appeal Hearing Procedure
1. The practice and procedure of the board with respect to an appeal hearing authorized by this act shall be in accordance
with adopted rules.
2. The board shall make every reasonable effort to hear any timely filed appeal of demotion or dismissal within 30
working days after receipt of notice of appeal unless an extension of time is requested by the employee or the
appointing authority. At no time may an appeal hearing be delayed beyond 60 calendar days without the consent of
both parties. Requests for appeal hearings of suspensions shall be scheduled as soon as possible. The board shall
provide reasonable notice to all affected persons and provide an opportunity for all affected persons to be heard and to
introduce relevant testimony and evidence at the appeal hearing, which shall be public. All testimony shall be under
oath.
3. Irrelevant, immaterial, or unduly repetitious evidence shall be excluded. All other evidence of the type commonly
relied upon by reasonably prudent persons in the conduct of their affairs is admissible, whether or not such evidence
would be admissible in the courts of this state. Hearsay evidence may be introduced and used for supplementing or
explaining other evidence, but it shall not be sufficient in itself to support a finding by the board unless it would be
admissible over objections in a civil action.
4. For the purpose of such hearing, the director or a member of the board is authorized to issue subpoenas to compel the
attendance of witnesses and the production of books, accounts, records, and documents. The board or any member of
the board may administer oaths and compel testimony. In the case of disobedience by any person of an order of the
board to testify to any matter regarding which the person may be lawfully interrogated, or of a subpoena to appear or
produce documents in the person’s possession, a county judge shall upon application of the director or a member of the
board, compel obedience by attachment proceedings for contempt, as in the case of a similar court order. Each person
who serves such a subpoena shall receive the same fee as a sheriff, and each witness who appears in obedience to a
subpoena shall receive the same witness fee and mileage provided for witnesses in civil cases, which fees shall be
audited and paid in the same manner as other expenses.
Section 13. Administrative Office of the Courts; Hearing to Review Action of Dismissal, Demotion, or
Suspension
Any employee holding a position within the Administrative Office of the Courts which was classified as of January 1, 1998, and
which is funded by the county may request a hearing to review such dismissal, demotion, or suspension action by making a
written request to the board within 10 calendar days after the official date of receipt of the final notice of the action. The request
for a hearing must state clearly and simply the reason such employee believes the action was not justified. The board shall send a
copy of any employees’ request for hearing to the court administrator within three working days after receipt. The practice and

procedure of the board with respect to a review hearing authorized in this section shall be in accordance with adopted rules. If the
board finds that such court employees’ dismissal, demotion, or suspension was for a reason other than just cause, it may
recommend to the chief judge that such employee be restored to that employees’ former status. Such recommendation is not
binding on the chief judge.
Section 14. Recommendation & Adoption of Classification & Pay Plans
1. At least once annually, on or before March 31, the board shall recommend any revisions to the classification and pay
plan and shall immediately forward them to each appointing authority. The pay plan shall provide, for each class of
position in the classification plan, a salary schedule with an initial entrance salary, intermediate points, a method of
recognizing longevity, and a maximum salary. Thereafter, but not later than April 30, the board shall prepare a final
recommendation, taking into consideration any responses received from any appointing authority and including as
backup material copies of all such responses. If the final recommendation is for a change to the pay plan, the
classification plan, or both, the recommendation shall be presented, along with the backup material, to each budget
authority for the classified employees whose positions it funds. Each budget authority must approve, amend, or reject a
salary schedule for the classified employees it funds by the date of adoption of its annual budget. A budget authority
shall not adopt a salary schedule for any employee whose salary is funded by any other budget authority. The board
shall adopt the salary schedule adopted by each budget authority and include each in the board’s pay plan. The board
shall also adopt salary schedules established in accordance with any collective bargaining or impasse resolution
procedures of any of the agencies or authorities to which this act applies, and shall also include each salary schedule so
established within the board’s pay plan.
2. The maximum salary shall be established and used for each class within a salary schedule. The salary schedule shall be
used unless the board makes a determination that:
1. It is in the best interests of the county to approve a salary exceeding the maximum to avoid loss of pay for an
employee; and one of the following conditions applies:
1. A pay grade is being reduced by administrative action, including reclassification to a position with
a lower pay grade, regrading of a class to a lower pay grade, or demotion through reduction in force
to a class with a lower pay grade
2. An employee is voluntarily demoted
3. An employee’s position is incorporated into civil service
2. It is necessary to implement a court order, settlement, or contract or to avoid impairing a property interest.
Section 15. Appropriation for the Board
The commission shall appropriate to the board annually a sum of money equal to not less than sixty-five hundredths of one
percent of the classified personnel payroll of the fiscal year just ended to enable the board to properly carry out the purposes of
this act. It is the duty of the authorities having charge of the public buildings of such county to allow the reasonable use of public
buildings and rooms for the holding of any activity of the board provided for by this act and to provide quarters for the use of the
board.

Section 16. Creation of Review Committee; Transition
A review committee shall be established consisting of the director of the board; eight persons, one to be designated by each of the
following:
 Clerk of the circuit court

 Commission
 Port authority
 Property appraiser
 Sheriff
 Supervisor of elections
 Tax collector
 The aviation authority
A representative shall also be selected by the employee advisory committee. The director of the board shall call an organizational
meeting in September of each year for the selection of officers, adoption of procedural rules, and formulation of a proposed
agenda. The committee may meet as many times thereafter as necessary, and the staff of the board shall be available for its use.
The review committee shall review the current rules adopted pursuant to this act and may propose changes as appropriate for the
board’s consideration. The board shall act upon the committee’s recommendation within 60 days after their presentation to the
board.
Section 17. Fiscal Responsibility
A salary, wage, or compensation for services may not be provided to any person in the classified service except upon certification
by the board or its agent that the position has been classified as required by this act and rules adopted pursuant thereto and that
the incumbent in the position has been duly qualified and properly appointed. Any individual who in good faith accepts an
appointment contrary to this act and becomes entitled to compensation therefor has a cause of action against the appointing
authority for recovery of salary or other compensation due. The board may provide for the regular or occasional audit of payrolls
to enforce this provision.
Section 18. Prohibited Activities
A person may not deceive or obstruct another person with respect to that person’s right to apply for employment under this act. A
person may not falsely evaluate an application or test for the purpose of improving or injuring an applicant’s chances for
employment. An applicant may not knowingly misrepresent the applicant’s qualifications for the purpose of improving the
applicant’s chances for employment. A person may not use the authority of a position in the classified service to solicit or receive
political contributions. A person may not use or promise to use influence or official authority to secure appointment to the
classified service in return for political contribution or service. A public officer or employee may not by means of threats or
coercion induce or attempt to induce any person in the classified service to resign, take leave, or waive any rights under this act.
A resignation executed prior to appointment is of no effect.

Section 19. Restriction on I ndividual Qualifying for Public Political Office
No subordinate personnel need resign upon qualifying for any compensated, elected public office unless such individual is
seeking to qualify for a public office which is currently held by an individual who has the authority to appoint, employ, promote,
or otherwise supervise that subordinate personnel and who has qualified as a candidate for reelection to that public office. No
subordinate personnel of the county administrator need resign upon qualifying for any compensated, elected public office unless
such individual is seeking to qualify for a position on the commission in which the incumbent has qualified as a candidate for
reelection. However, any such personnel shall take a leave of absence without pay from public employment during the period in
which the person is seeking election to public office. A classified employee may serve in an elected public office if service in
such elected office does not conflict with the performance of the employee’s duties in the classified service or present a conflict
of interest between the elected office and the classified position. If a classified employee is elected, the appointing authority
where that employee is employed shall determine whether the employee’s service in public office conflicts with the performance
of his or her duties with the appointing authority. If the employee disagrees with any finding that relates to a conflict with the
performance of duties, the employee may file a grievance or appeal under the applicable processes.
Section 20. Employee Advisory Committee
An employee advisory committee shall be elected from among the employees of the agencies or authorities named in Section 4 in
a manner and for terms prescribed by the board. The board shall also prescribe the manner by which any vacant unexpired term
shall be filled. The employee advisory committee will serve as the medium to provide a continuous and meaningful exchange of
ideas and practical solutions on personnel matters between the board and employees.
Section 21. Violation of Act; Penalty
Any willful violation of this act is declared to be a criminal offense and misdemeanor as defined in s775.08(2), Florida Statutes,
shall be punishable as provided by general law.
Section 22. Recodification
Prior to the end of calendar year 2010 and every 10 years thereafter, the county legislative delegation shall review this act, as
amended, to determine whether there is a need for codification. If it is determined that there is such a need, the delegation may
require the board to prepare such legislation and submit it to the delegation for further consideration.
Section 23. Severability
If any provision of this act or its application to any person or circumstance is held invalid, the invalidity does not affect other
provisions or applications of the act which can be given effect without the invalid provision or application, and to this end the
provisions of this act are declared severable.
Section 24.

Chapters 96-519, 97-342, 97-343, 97-349, 97-350, 98-450, 98-481, and 99-415, Laws of Florida, are repealed.
Section 25.This act shall take effect upon becoming a law.
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CHAPTER 2014-230
House Bill No. 683
An act relating to Hillsborough County; amending chapter 2000-445, Laws of

Florida, relating to the Civil Service Act; providing an agency or authority
with the ability to opt out of or opt into provisions of the act that regulate
personnel functions; authorizing an agency or authority that has elected to
opt out of certain personnel functions to contract with the Civil Service
Board to provide the same personnel functions in a nonregulatory capacity;
providing for an appropriation to the Civil Service Board to carry out the
purposes of the act; requiring the commission to consider the level of
services provided by the Civil Service Board to the participating agencies
or authorities; providing an effective date.
Be It Enacted by the Legislature of the State of Florida:
Section 1. Sections 4 and 15 of chapter 2000-445, Laws of Florida, are

amended to read:
Section 4. Application.—
(1) The provisions of this act apply to all classified personnel employed by
the following agencies or authorities within the county: the commission, the
county administrator, clerk of the circuit court, supervisor of elections,
property appraiser, tax collector, sheriff, environmental protection commis-
sion, aviation authority, port authority, planning commission, public
transportation commission, expressway authority, law library, legislative
delegation, soil and water conservation district, civil service board, sports
authority, children’s board, county attorney, arts council, victim assistance,
and any other agency or authority not expressly exempt from this act. Each
municipality in the county, the judiciary, and the District School Board of the
county are expressly exempt from this act until and unless each executes an
interlocal agreement with the board pursuant to general law. Positions
within the Administrative Office of the Courts which were classified as of
January 1, 1998, and which are funded by the county are subject to section 13
of this act.
(2) Each agency or authority listed in this section that is not expressly
exempt from this act remains subject to sections 11 and 12. With respect to
the remaining provisions of this act, each agency or authority has the option
to either opt out of or opt into any provision that relates to personnel
functions by providing notice to the board during the election period as
provided in this subsection. Personnel functions subject to the opt-out or opt-
in election include, but are not limited to, employee recruitment; selection
and hiring process; creation and adoption of classification plans, benefit
plans, and pay plans; promotions; abolition and creation of positions; filling
vacancies; performance review and evaluation systems; reductions in force
and methods of reemployment; guidelines for leave; determination of
1
CODING: Words stricken are deletions; words underlined are additions.

Ch. 2014-230 LAWS OF FLORIDA Ch. 2014-230
classified service status and tenure; and any other human resources
functions. The agency or authority that has elected to opt out of or opt
into any provision of this act has the exclusive authority to determine which
corresponding Civil Service Rules shall apply to that specific agency or
authority.
(a) The notice shall cite the specific provision of this act that the agency or
authority has elected to either opt out of or opt into, and identify the group of
employees subject to the opt-out or opt-in election, including designations
based on job classifications, divisions, dates of employment, or any other
delineated group of employees as determined by the agency or authority. The
notice shall also identify the personnel functions that are covered by the opt-
out or opt-in election.
(b) For the initial election period, the agency or authority shall provide
notice of its opt-out or opt-in election on or after July 1, 2014, but not later
than July 31, 2014, with an implementation date for the election to be
October 1, 2014. For each election period thereafter, the agency or authority
shall provide notice of its opt-out or opt-in election on or after December 1 but
not later than December 31 of that year, with an implementation date for the
election to be the first day of the next fiscal year.
(c) If an agency or authority does not submit notice of its opt-out or opt-in
election to the board during any designated election period, the provisions of
this act applicable to the agency or authority before the election period shall
remain in effect. An agency or authority that elects to opt out of any
personnel function regulated by this act may, at its discretion, contract with
the board to continue to provide the same personnel functions in a
nonregulatory capacity.
Section 15. Appropriation for the board.—The commission shall appro-
priate to the board annually a sum of money equal to not less than sixty-five
hundredths of 1 percent of the classified personnel payroll of the fiscal year
just ended, less the cost of providing any personnel functions that an agency
or authority has chosen to opt out of, in order to enable the board to properly
carry out the purposes of this act. In determining the annual appropriation of
funds, the commission shall also consider the cost of personnel functions
provided to agencies or authorities that have contracted with the board for
some or all of the personnel functions of which it has opted out, and any
additional personnel functions that the board has contracted with an agency
or authority to provide. It is the duty of the authorities having charge of the
public buildings of such county to allow the reasonable use of public buildings
and rooms for the holding of any activity of the board provided for by this act
and to provide quarters for the use of the board.
Section 2. This act shall take effect July 1, 2014.

Approved by the Governor May 12, 2014.
Filed in Office Secretary of State May 12, 2014.
2
CODING: Words stricken are deletions; words underlined are additions.

Tab. 4
RULE ELEVEN Rule 11
Dismissals, Suspensions, Involuntary Demotions for Cause, Resignations, and Pre-

Disciplinary/Administrative Due Process Hearings
11.1 General Provisions for Dismissals, Suspensions, and Involuntary Demotions for
Cause:
a. Personnel actions contemplated in this rule are those which diminish or eliminate,
either permanently or temporarily, the salary of a tenured member of the classified
service. Those actions include involuntary demotion for cause, suspension without
pay, and dismissal from employment.
b. A classified employee may be suspended with or without pay, demoted for cause, or
dismissed by his or her Agency Head or their designated representative, when such
action will promote the efficiency of the classified service. Any adverse action taken
by the Agency Head, or their designated representative, must be based on just cause.
c. Any non-tenured employee in the classified service may be suspended or dismissed

for any cause if that suspension or dismissal will promote the efficiency of the
classified service. Such adverse actions shall not be appealable to the Civil Service
Board. [CSL Section 11 (1)]
d. No disciplinary action shall be based on an employee's sex, color, age, marital status,
national origin, citizenship status, disability, political or religious affiliations, or any
other non-performance factor. [CSL Section 2(1) (2) (3) or IRCA]
11.2 Reasons for Dismissals, Suspensions, or Involuntary Demotions for Cause:
Employees in the classified service may be suspended, involuntarily demoted, or

dismissed for cause. Cause may include but is not limited to situations where the
employee during the scope of employment or, when applicable, in any other capacity
or under circumstances that adversely affect an agency’s or Hillsborough County’s
interest has:
(1) violated the Civil Service Rules, or any operational or administrative rules or
procedures established by or for the Agency Head or their designated
representative, which are not inconsistent with these rules.
(2) exhibited incompetence; or continued rendering of unsatisfactory service, after

instruction and/or counseling.
(3) failed to maintain competence or legal capacity to perform the duties required
of the classification/position.
(4) demonstrated a gross neglect of duty or a specific serious failure to perform

assigned duties.
(5) committed an act of insubordination.
REVISED TO 05-18-05 Page 11-1

RULE ELEVEN Rule 11
11.2 (Continued)
(6) violated any lawful official regulation or order, or failed to obey any proper
direction made and given by a superior.
(7) committed harassment, including but not limited to sexual harassment, or

actions which, although not amounting to a cause of action for harassment, are
inappropriate actions of a sexual, hostile, abusive or interfering nature towards
another employee, customer, vendor, citizen, or any other person with whom
the employee comes into contact as a result of employment.
(8) failed to acquire or maintain a valid license, registration or certification, as

required by Federal or State law, or applicable Hillsborough County Agency
policy, when such license, registration or certification is required in the class
specification or the position description.
(9) improperly used or possessed, sold, distributed, dispensed or manufactured a

controlled substance, or an illegal drug while at work, on Hillsborough County
property, in a County vehicle or other vehicle utilized in the service of the
County, or while off the premises performing work for the County.
(10) indulged in an intoxicating beverage, an hallucinogen, or a controlled

stimulant or depressant drug while on duty or preceding duty so that such
indulgence can be discerned after the time for commencement of duties. [The
professional opinion of one licensed physician, or the signed statements of two
or more other persons, shall suffice for determination of discernment of
intoxication].
(11) engaged in a physical fight at the work site or has engaged in a verbally
abusive and/or intimidating confrontation with a supervisor, peer, employee, or
a member of the public.
(12) negligently operated a County owned or other vehicle used in the service of the
County.
(13) violated, or failed to enforce, safety practices including the performance of

unsafe acts, failure to wear and/or use safety equipment, or failure to comply
with safety rules.
(14) failed to immediately report a work related personal injury or damage to

property or equipment.
(15) used or threatened to use, or attempted to use, bribery, personal or political

influence of his or her position for personal gain. [CSL Section 18]
(16) in connection with official duties, accepted compensation other than that
specifically authorized by Civil Service Rules. [CSL Section 18]
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RULE ELEVEN Rule 11
11.2 (Continued)
(17) misappropriated County funds, appropriated County property, services, or

personnel for his/her personal use, or illegally disposed of County property.
(18) damaged County property through negligence.
(19) made false claims or misrepresentations on behalf of oneself or another in an

attempt to obtain County provided benefits, workers' compensation benefits, or
other payments or credits.
(20) been absent without leave, failed to give proper notice of absence, or failed to
report after a leave of absence has expired.
(21) failed to maintain a satisfactory attendance record.
(22) committed or been convicted, or entered a plea of guilty or nolo contendere, to

an act which constitutes a felony or a misdemeanor having specific relevance
to the duties of the employee's classification.
(23) falsified or omitted information as part of the qualifying application for

employment and/or promotion, or any other document of Civil Service or the
using agency, for the purpose of personal gain or reward. [CSL Section 18]
(24) violated established security procedures during the qualifying examination

process or has obtained information, through unauthorized or illegal means,
which provides an unfair advantage on any qualifying examination.
(25) without approval, knowingly and willfully modified, used or accessed data,
communications systems, programs or supplies used or intended to be used in
County computers, computer systems, communications systems, or network.
(26) exhibited actions or conduct prejudicial to good order, or detrimental to the

interest of Hillsborough County.
(27) demonstrated mental or physical impairment that prevents the employee, with
or without reasonable accommodation, from performing the essential functions
of his or her position.
(28) engaged in activities while not on duty in the classified service, including but
not limited to activities in other employment or elected office, which are
inconsistent with or create a conflict of interest with the requirements of
performing or serving in the classified service. If discipline is imposed under
this rule without the Appointing Authority providing prior notice to the
employee that it considers an action to be inconsistent with or to create a
conflict of interest with performance or service in the classified service, and
the
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RULE ELEVEN Rule 11
11.2 (Continued)
activities are not otherwise improper, unlawful, or a violation of these rules,

the Appointing Authority must demonstrate that immediate discipline is
justified by compelling circumstances.
(29) disrupted, disturbed, or in any way interfered with an agency investigation,

including but not limited to: knowingly having made false allegations which
were investigated; knowingly having made or caused to be made false
statements or misrepresentations during the course of an investigation; having
taken or destroyed documents relevant to an investigation; knowingly having
spread false information concerning an investigation; or having inappropriately
influenced, or having attempted to inappropriately influence, witnesses,
potential witnesses, or investigators in an agency investigation.
(30) knowingly made or caused to be made a false statement or misrepresentation in

a matter of official county business, including but not limited to an agency’s
mission or activities, the employee’s work performance, or dealings with
customers.
(31) refused to repay monies to or enter into a reasonable repayment agreement

with an agency which mistakenly paid or gave monies or benefits to or on
behalf of the employee as a result of an administrative error or incorrect
information and to which the employee was not entitled.
(32) any other properly substantiated cause that is in the best interest of
Hillsborough County.
11.3 Immediate Suspensions In The Best Interest of Hillsborough County:
a. Upon determination that the conduct of an employee creates a situation requiring the
removal of the employee from a duty station, the Agency Head or designated
representative may immediately suspend the employee, with or without pay; and,
without the benefit of advanced written notification. [CSL Section 11 (3)]
b. Situations may include, but are not limited to those situations in which the retention
of the employee would:
(1) result in damage to County property; or,
(2) be injurious to the employee, a fellow employee, or to the general

public; or,
(3) substantially impair management's ability to maintain decorum and

discipline; or,
(4) there is a need to initiate or complete a formal investigation regarding

action by the employee that may lead to discipline; or,
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RULE ELEVEN Rule 11
11.3 (Continued)
(5) be otherwise detrimental to the interest of Hillsborough County.
c. Employees suspended under these provisions shall be provided written notice of the
action taken, stating the reason(s) therefor; and, the effective date(s). The notice shall
also provide the employee an opportunity to respond at a Pre-Disciplinary hearing
schedule for that purpose. The notice shall be provided the employee within three (3)
working days or five (5) calendar days of their suspension date, whichever is sooner.
d. In the event the Agency Head or designated representative does not schedule a Pre-
Disciplinary hearing within a 60-day calendar period from the effective date of
suspension, the Agency Head, or designated representative, will provide the
employee and the Civil Service Board a status report with reasons as to the delay in
scheduling of a Pre-Disciplinary hearing. Thereafter, a status report will be sent to
the employee and the Civil Service Board every 30 days until a Pre-Disciplinary
hearing is scheduled.
11.4 Pre-Disciplinary and Administrative Due Process Hearing Requirements:
When dismissal, suspension, or involuntary demotion for cause action against a

tenured employee is contemplated by an Agency Head or their designated
representative, it is the responsibility of that authority or designated representative to
provide the employee with written notice of the intended action, detailing the reasons
therefor, and providing the employee an opportunity to respond at an informal Pre-
Disciplinary or Administrative Due Process hearing scheduled for that purpose.
(1) The hearing shall be scheduled no sooner than five working days from the date
of the written notice to administer the dismissal, suspension, or involuntary
demotion, unless the employee waives this time and requests an earlier
hearing.
(2) After hearing the employee's response at the scheduled Pre-Disciplinary or

Administrative Due Process hearing, the Agency Head or their designated
representative, may lessen, or rescind the action first intended, or may proceed.
(3) If the final decision is to impose the dismissal, suspension, or involuntary

demotion, the Agency Head or their designated representative, shall provide
the employee, as soon as possible, with written notification of such action
using Civil Service Form 5 [Notice of Employment Suspension, Involuntary
Demotion for Cause, or Dismissal]. Such notification must be signed and dated
by the employee indicating his or her acknowledgment. Should the employee
refuse to sign the notification, a statement to that effect shall be placed in the
space provided for the employee's signature and be authenticated by the
Agency Head or their designated representative.
(4) Where the CS Form 5 cannot be personally presented to the employee, the
Agency Head or duly authorized representative, shall mail such notification to
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RULE ELEVEN Rule 11
11.4 (Continued)
the employee's last known address using Certified Mail [return receipt
requested]; and, shall afford the employee an opportunity to file an appeal
within ten [10] calendar days from receipt. In these cases, the employee's
acknowledgement of receipt shall constitute the official date of receipt of the
final notice of suspension, demotion, or dismissal. In cases where the
notification is returned unclaimed, the "date of first attempted delivery"
indicated on the returned mailed document shall be used as the employee’s
official date of notification of dismissal, suspension, or involuntary demotion
for cause.
(5) A copy of the Civil Service Form 5, signed by the employee, along with Civil
Service Form 2 [Status Form] changing the status of the employee, shall
normally be forwarded to the Civil Service Office within five [5] working days
of imposing dismissal, suspension, or involuntary demotion for cause action.
11.5 Resignation of Position:
a. An employee may leave the service of Hillsborough County voluntarily by

resignation. Whenever possible, a resignation should be in writing and submitted to
the Appointing Authority in a timely fashion.
b. The effective date of a resignation submitted by an employee, whether orally or in

writing, should provide for sufficient notice to allow for proper replacement.
Sufficient and proper notice shall normally be considered to be at least two weeks.
11.6 Abandonment of Position:
a. An employee may be deemed to have abandoned his or her position of employment,

if the employee does not return to work at the properly appointed time. Three
consecutive working days of unauthorized absence constitute the normal period of
absence taken as an indication of abandonment. However, termination of
employment is not mandatory and circumstances of each case must be carefully
examined by the Agency head or their designated representative before a report of
dismissal of employment is entered in the record.
b. In cases involving a tenured employee, the Agency Head or their designated

representative shall provide the employee with written notification of the intention to
initiate termination action as a result of abandonment of position. Such notification
shall be mailed to the employee's last known address using Certified Mail [return
receipt requested]; and, shall afford the employee an opportunity [normally ten (10)
calendar days from the date of receipt] to respond justifying the unauthorized
absence. Should the final period end on either Saturday, Sunday or Hillsborough
County designated legal holiday, the period shall be extended until the end of the
next day which is neither a Saturday, Sunday nor Hillsborough County designated
legal holiday.

RULE ELEVEN Rule 11
11.6 (Continued)
(1) After considering the employee's response, the Agency Head or their
designated representative may rescind the action first intended or initiate
disciplinary action.
(2) If the final decision is to discipline, the Agency Head or his/her designated
representative shall comply with the requirements stipulated in Civil Service
Rule 11.4.
(3) Should the employee fail to respond to the original notification letter, the
Agency Head or his/her designated representative, may consider this as an
indication of abandonment and shall initiate dismissal action. In these cases, a
copy of the notification letter with evidence of mailing, along with CS Form 2
changing the status of the employee, stating the effective date and reason, shall
be forwarded to the Civil Service Office as soon as possible.
(4) Any employee who is dismissed as a result of abandoning his or her position,
and was properly notified of the Agency Head's intention to dismiss and who
failed to respond to that notification, shall forfeit all rights for the payment of
all sick and annual leave accrued, but not used.
11.7 Reduction-In-Force:
a. Each Agency Head shall develop and file with the Civil Service Board a Reduction-
In-Force Plan, to include a method of reemployment. Such plan shall be filed with
the Civil Service Board no later than sixty (60) days prior to the effective date of the
reduction-in-force.
b. The Agency Head of the agency in which the reduction-in-force will occur, shall
identify the number of positions to be reduced within each affected classification.
c. Before any tenured employee in the classification to be reduced is laid off, employees
on initial probation in the affected classification and, all temporary and substitute
employees performing like work shall be dismissed..
d. The Agency Head shall certify the names of those to be laid off in the classification
to be reduced, based upon seniority and other factors, as established by the Agency
Head's Reduction-In-Force Plan. Special consideration in the retention of employees
shall be given those persons eligible to receive veterans' preference, as defined in
Civil Service Rule 7.1c.
e. The Agency Head shall furnish each classified employee to be laid off, written
notification of the intended action. The notification shall be provided to the employee

RULE ELEVEN Rule 11
11.7 (Continued)
a minimum of two weeks in advance; and, state the reason for the layoff and the
effective date. Concurrently, a copy of the notice shall be forwarded to the Civil
Service Office for appropriate action and inclusion in the employee's permanent
record.
f. Before any RIF'd employee is placed in a position of promotion, a Closed

Promotional Opportunity or an Open Recruitment process must be completed in
accordance with applicable Civil Service Rules. To be considered for these
recruitments, the employee must apply through the Civil Service Office and be
certified as qualified for special consideration on employment eligibility lists.
g. Employees that are laid off due to a reduction-in-force may apply for Closed
Promotion Recruitments within one year of lay off.
h. Any tenured employee who is reemployed in a classified position within one year
after having been laid off from a classified position shall have their tenure status
restored. The employee’s benefits date and performance review date will be
adjusted for the total number of days between the last day of work and the date of
reemployment.
i. All benefits to which the tenured employee was entitled, as required by Civil
Service Law or Rules, on the date of lay off; and, for which not otherwise
compensated, are reestablished on the date of reemployment. No further benefits
accrue during the actual period of lay off.
j. Upon reemployment in the same classification, the employee shall receive the same
r ate of pay held at the time of lay off, or the minimum of the pay range, whichever
is higher.
k. Upon reemployment in a lower classification, the employee shall be paid in

accordance with Civil Service Rule 7.3c.
l. Employees reemployed in a higher classification shall receive an increase in salary

as provided for in Civil Service Rule 8.2a (1). The employee’s Performance
Review date shall be established based on the probation period of the new job
classification (normally six months). In the event that the conditional probation
period is unsuccessful, return to former class is not an option.
m. Upon reemployment in a different classification, without promotion or demotion,

the employee shall receive the same rate of pay held at the time of lay off, or the
minimum of the pay range, whichever is higher.

RULE ELEVEN Rule 11
11.8 Workers' Compensation Dismissal and Return to Work Program

a. The Agency Head shall file notice with the Civil Service Board whenever it becomes
necessary to dismiss any classified employee qualified for wage loss benefits, as
defined in the State Workers' Compensation Statute, or any classified employee who
is unable to perform the essential functions of their job with or without reasonable
accommodation(s).
b. Each classified employee to be dismissed shall be given a written notice of dismissal

by the Agency Head at least two weeks prior to the date of effect. The notice shall
state the reason for dismissal and the date it is to become effective. Concurrently, a
copy of the notice shall be forwarded to the Civil Service Office for inclusion in the
employee's permanent record.
c. In cases where Civil Service is not actively recruiting; and, in order to assist the
employee in gaining other employment, they will be certified; and, their names
referred for consideration to those departments/agencies having vacancies in the
classification for which they qualify. Before any such employee is placed in a
position of promotion, a Closed Promotional Opportunity, or an Open Recruitment
process must be completed in accordance with applicable Civil Service Rules.
d. The name of each classified employee dismissed shall be placed on the Open
Recruitment Eligibility List for any classification which qualified; and, shall be
retained thereon for three months or until reinstated, whichever occurs first.
e. Any person who is reinstated in a classified position after having been dismissed
from any such position in the Civil Service system, shall have their tenure status
restored, if applicable. All service which was creditable on the date of dismissal will
be included when computing the employees length of service, provided the employee
is reinstated within one year from the effective date of dismissal.
f. In all cases of dismissal, the employee's Benefits Date will be adjusted by adding the
length of the dismissal, regardless of the length of that period.
g. All benefits to which the employee was entitled, as required by Civil Service Law or
Rules, on the date of dismissal; and, for which not otherwise compensated, are
reestablished on the date of reinstatement. No further benefits accrue during the
actual period of dismissal.
h. Upon reinstatement in the same classification, the employee shall receive the same
rate of pay held at the time of dismissal, or the minimum of the pay range, whichever
is higher. The Performance Review Date will be adjusted by adding the length of the
dismissal, regardless of the length of that absence.
REVISED TO 03-17-10 Page 11-9 A-381
RULE ELEVEN Rule 11
11.8 (Continued)
i. Upon reinstatement in a lower classification, the employee shall be paid as provided
for in Civil Service Rule 7.3c. The employee's most recent Performance Review
Date and conditional probationary period, if applicable, will be adjusted by adding
the length of the dismissal, regardless of the length of that absence
j. Employees reinstated in a higher classification shall receive an increase in salary as

provided for in Civil Service Rule 8.2a(1). The employee's Performance Review Date
shall be established at the successful completion of conditional probation, normally
six months from the date of reinstatement.
k. Upon reinstatement in a different classification, without promotion or demotion, the

employee shall receive the same rate of pay held at the time of dismissal, or the
minimum of the pay range, whichever is higher. The Performance Review Date will
be adjusted by adding the length of the dismissal, regardless of the length of that
absence.
l. As an exception to the procedures prescribed above in Civil Service Rule 11.8h

through 11.8l, the Agency Head may, when budgetary necessity dictates, reinstate
any employee at any pay level within the pay range that does not exceed the
employee's rate of pay at the time of dismissal.

Tab. 5
RULE FIFTEEN Rule 15
Appeal Hearing Procedures
15.1 General/Powers of the Board:
(1) The employee appeal procedure mandated in Sections 11 and 12 of the Civil
Service Act (Chapter 2000-445, L.O.F., as amended) is implemented by this
rule and the relevant provisions contained in Civil Service Rules 2, 3, and
11 which are hereby incorporated by reference.
(2) The Board will utilize electronic filing in employee appeals. Parties to any
action shall electronically file (e-file) all documents using the Board’s
online e-Filing procedures. It is intended that such electronic filing shall be
consistent with Florida Rules of Judicial Administration as appropriate and
to the extent feasible. Self-represented individuals who do not have the
means to file electronically may submit paper documents in person or via
U.S. mail.
(3) The Board, acting in concert or through its Chair, may delegate certain
responsibilities to the Director or the General Counsel from time to time.
Such delegation shall be in writing and will be subject to review and renewal
on an annual basis.
(4) Review of Any Action: An appointing authority or employee may appeal

to the Board for review of any action taken or directive given by the Director
or General Counsel on behalf of the Board. All such appeals must be
presented in writing within the time frame directed by the General Counsel
or the Chair. The Board’s final judgment is subject to review in accordance
with the Florida Rules of Appellate Procedure.
15.2 Appointing Authority:
(1) The Appointing Authority shall notify the Director of all disciplinary
actions which it imposes upon a classified employee(s) resulting in a
suspension, demotion, or dismissal within 3 business day of issuing a Notice
of Discipline (CS Form 5).
(2) When an employee submits a request to the Board for an appeal hearing,
the Board may request from the Appointing Authority additional
documentation which may be needed to determine the employee’s
eligibility for an appeal hearing under the applicable provisions of the Civil
Service Act and Rules. The Authority shall provide the requested
information to the Board within five (5) business days. These documents
should be provided electronically in accordance with this Rule.

15.3 Employees:
(1) Employees Eligible for Appeal Hearing: Any classified employee who has
satisfactorily completed the required initial probationary period, and is
thereafter involuntarily demoted for cause, suspended, or dismissed from
employment, may request a formal hearing before the Board to appeal said
action.
(2) Employees Not Eligible for Appeal Hearing:

a. An employee who has not satisfactorily completed the required
initial probationary period shall have no right to a Pre-disciplinary
or Administrative Due Process hearing, or to an appeal hearing
before the Board. [CSL Section 11(1)]
b. Unsuccessful completion of the required conditional probationary

period following promotion is not appealable to the Board. [CSL
Section 10 (2)]
c. Employees not holding a classified position shall not be eligible for

an appeal hearing. This shall include any employee within the
Administrative Office of the Courts (Court Administrator) who
holds a position which was not classified as of January 1, 1998, and
funded by Hillsborough County Board of County Commissioners.
[CSL Section 13]
d. The Director will notify an employee who is not eligible to receive

a formal appeal hearing of the employee’s ineligibility within seven
(7) working days from the receipt of the employee’s request for
hearing.
(3) Employees Covered by Collective Bargaining Agreements:
Classified employees who are members of a bargaining unit shall be

allowed to appeal any single action through either the applicable collective
bargaining appeal procedures or the Board’s appeal process. Once an appeal
is initiated in either process it shall be resolved in that process. [FS 447.401]
(4) Employee Rights During Appeal Hearing:
During the appeal hearing, the employee initiating the appeal shall have the
right to be heard publicly, to present evidence, to cross examine witnesses,
and to be represented by legal counsel, or an individual of the employee’s
choice, as provided for in 15.3(5). In all cases, the employee shall be
responsible for any and all expenses that he or she may incur in these
proceedings.

15.3 (Continued)
(5) An employee may be represented in a grievance or appeal proceeding by

any individual who is not a witness to the proceeding. Such representative
may not be compensated for their assistance, unless the individual is
licensed or admitted to practice law in the state of Florida, another state, the
District of Columbia, or a federal court, or unless the individual is
compensated in his or her capacity as an employee or representative of a
duly recognized bargaining agent.
15.4 Basis for Appeal:
(1) The document which forms the basis for the appeal by a classified employee
is the CS Form 5 [Notice of Employment Suspension, Involuntary
Demotion for Cause, or Dismissal]. This document must include the action
which is being taken, the factual basis for imposing the action, the effective
date or dates of the action, and the specific Civil Service Rule(s), and/or
internal agency policy(ies) or regulation(s) which the Agency Head claims
have been violated.
a. Where the Agency Head claims that an internal policy or regulation

has been violated, a copy of such internal policy(ies) or regulation(s)
shall be provided to the Board.
(2) The facts contained in the Civil Service Form 5, and the Civil Service Rule
violations, and/or internal agency policy(ies) or regulation identified
therein, are the only subject matter litigated during the appeal hearing.
(3) Should an Agency Head, or designated representative who initiated the

action, desire to present a violation of a different Civil Service Rule(s),
and/or internal agency policy(ies) or regulation, than those which appear in
the initial Civil Service Form 5 which forms the basis of the appeal, or a
different factual basis for finding a violation based on newly acquired
evidence discovered subsequent to the issuance of the initial Form 5, the
Board will remand the appeal back to the Agency Head for further
proceedings on the new factual material or Rules.

15.4 (Continued)
(4) Except for the requirement of the Agency Head to provide an opportunity
for the employee to respond at a Pre-disciplinary or Administrative Due
Process hearing, the Board shall not consider other aspects of the Pre-
disciplinary or Administrative Due Process procedures of the Agency Head
in any way, including questions such as whether the appellant received
adequate notice of the hearing, whether the appellant was adequately
represented at the Pre-disciplinary or Administrative Due Process hearing,
or whether the Agency Head followed its own internal procedures leading
up to the Pre-disciplinary or Administrative Due Process hearing. Evidence
introduced by either side at the Pre-disciplinary or Administrative Due
Process hearing may be admissible to determine whether the grounds listed
on the Civil Service Form 5 are within the scope of matters addressed by
the Pre-disciplinary or Administrative Due Process hearing. In addition,
evidence introduced at the Pre-disciplinary or Administrative Due Process
hearing may be admitted to impeach a witness regarding an inconsistent
statement; or for other purposes not inconsistent with this Rule, the Civil
Service Law or applicable legal precedent.
15.5 Request for Appeal [CSL Section 11(4)]:
(1) The request for an appeal hearing must be received by the Civil Service
Office within ten (10) calendar days following the employee’s official date
of receipt of CS Form 5. Should the final period end on either Saturday,
Sunday or Hillsborough County designated legal holiday, the period shall
be extended until the end of the next day which is not a Saturday, Sunday
or Hillsborough County designated legal holiday.
(2) The request for an appeal hearing must be submitted electronically using an
Appeal Request CS Form 5A; and shall be electronically signed by the
employee and/or his or her authorized representative. Electronic filing
forms and instructions may be accessed at www.hccsb.org Self-represented
individuals who do not have the means to file electronically may submit the
Appeal Request Form (5A) in person or via U.S. mail.
(3) The CS Form 5A shall provide the telephone number, E-mail address, and
U.S. mail address to which a copy of the notice of hearing and other
pleadings or papers filed in the appeal action should be mailed or sent
electronically.
(4) The CS Form 5A shall state clearly and simply the reason(s) the employee
believes the suspension, involuntary demotion for cause, or dismissal was
not for just cause.

15.5 (Continued)
(5) Within three (3) working days from the receipt of the employee's request
for appeal hearing, the Board Director shall send a Notice of such request
to the Agency Head, or authorized representative, who initiated the action.
[CSL Section 11(4)] Such Notice shall also include the dates and
requirements as provided for in CSR 15.9 Scheduling of Appeal Hearing,
CSR 15.12 Motion for Summary Judgment, and CSR 15.14 Pre-Hearing
Conference.
15.6 E-filing Consent, Exception, Service, and Technology:
(1) Consent of the parties required: After the Director has accepted the
employee’s request for appeal, documents may be electronically filed and
served, but only by, and upon, a party or parties who have consented
thereto by submitting a Consent to Electronic Service and Filing form
provided by the Board.
a. One party’s failure to consent to participation in electronic filing

and service shall not bar any other party to the action from filing
documents electronically with the Board, or serving documents
upon any other party who has consented to participation.
Where a party does not have the means to file electronically, the
Board reserves the right to convert paper filings into electronic
form as appropriate.
b. A party who does not have the means to file electronically shall
file documents, and serve and be served with documents, in hard
copy. When an e-filing party serves a document in hard copy on a
nonparticipating party, the document served shall bear full
signatures of all signatories and proof of such service shall be filed
electronically.
c. An Appointing Authority may provide a blanket consent to

electronic filing and service.
(2) Exceptions: Hard copy or paper documents and other submissions may be
manually submitted to the Board:
a. when the Board does not have the ability to accept and retain
documents by electronic filing;
b. when submitting evidentiary exhibits or filing non-documentary

materials, including demonstrative aids for use at hearing;

15.6 (Continued)
c. when the filing involves documents in excess of the appropriate

size limitations specified by the County’s Information and
Innovation Office. For such filings, documents may be transmitted
using an electronic storage medium that the Board has the ability
to accept, which may include a CD-ROM, flash drive, or similar
storage medium;
d. when filed as permitted by the Board during a hearing, or pre-

hearing conference;
e. if the Director, upon consultation with the General Counsel,

determines that justice so requires.
15.7 Filing Sensitive Information Minimization:
(1) Limitation for Filings. The following information is designated to be

“sensitive” and filing it with the Board must be limited as follows:
a. A person known to be a minor will be cited only by their initials;
b. A person’s birth date will only include the year of birth;
c. No portion of any of the items listed below may be included:
1. social security number,
3. credit card account number,
4. charge account number, or
5. debit account number;
d. Only the last four digits of the following items should be cited:
1. taxpayer identification number (TIN),
2. employee identification number,
3. driver’s license number,
4. passport number,
5. telephone number,
6. financial account number, except as set forth in paragraph
(1)c,
7. brokerage account number,
8. insurance policy account number,
9. loan account number,
10. customer account number, or
11. patient or health care number;
e. Only a truncated version of any the following items may be cited

1. email address,
2. computer user name,
3. password, or
4. personal identification number (PIN); and

15.7 (Continued)
f. Only a truncated version of any other sensitive information as

provided by Board order may be cited.
(2) Exceptions: Paragraph (1) does not apply to the following:

a. An account number which identifies the property alleged to be the
subject of a proceeding;
b. The record of an administrative or agency proceeding;
c. The record in appellate or review proceedings;
d. all information necessary for the proper issuance and execution of

a subpoena;
15.8 Accessibility of Information and Technology:
Any document that is or will become a record of the Board, and that is transmitted in an
electronic form, must be formatted in a manner outlined by Section 3.1 of the Florida
Court Standards found at the following link
www.flcourts.org/core/fileparse.php/624/urlt/Updated-E-Access-Standards-November-2016-v17-clean.pdf.
Such documents shall comply with all state and federal laws requiring that electronic
records be accessible to persons with disabilities, including the Americans with
Disabilities Act, and Section 508 of the federal Rehabilitation Act of 1973 as
incorporated into Florida law by section 282.603(1), Florida Statutes (2010), and any
related federal or state regulations or administrative rules.
15.9 Scheduling of Appeal Hearing:
(1) The Board shall make every reasonable effort to hear any timely filed appeal
of demotion or dismissal within 30 working days of receipt of the notice of
appeal, unless an extension of time is requested by the employee or the
Agency Head, or their respective representative. At no time shall the initial
hearing of an appeal of dismissal be delayed beyond sixty (60) calendar
days without the consent of both parties involved, unless otherwise required
by general law. [CSL Section 12(2)]
(2) Requests for appeal hearings involving suspensions shall be scheduled as

soon as possible consistent with other Board matters and priorities. [CSL
Section 12(2)]

15.9 (Continued)
(3) After an appeal is filed, the Director shall provide notice to all parties of the
time, date, and location of all hearings and pre-hearing proceedings to take
place in an appeal. Such notice shall specify:
a. that any motions for summary judgment must be filed no later than
20 calendar days after the date the appellant filed the Civil Service
Form 5A;
b. the date of the Pre-Hearing Conference, which shall normally be

held within one week after the summary judgment deadline unless a
summary judgment motion is filed; and
c. the date of a hearing before the Board on the appeal which may be
scheduled as early as two weeks after the Pre-Hearing Conference.
The Director shall serve such further notices as may be required.
[CSL Section 12(2)]
d. that any deadline that ends either Saturday, Sunday or Hillsborough

County designated legal holiday, shall be extended until the end of
the next day which is not a Saturday, Sunday or Hillsborough
County designated legal holiday.
(4) Any request for extension of deadlines to file a motion or response, or for a
continuance, or rescheduling of a hearing or pre-hearing conference must
be electronically submitted in writing except for a party is an employee who
is self-represented and does not have the means to file electronically. The
request shall include a full justification and must reach the Civil Service
Office by the end of that business day which is five (5) working days prior
to the hearing date, or deadline for submission. All such requests, except
when prepared and signed by counsel or other representative of the party,
must be signed by the appellant or the Agency Head.
a. Continuances and extensions will be granted only upon showing of

good cause. The first request for extension of any deadline, or
continuance, or rescheduling of any hearing or pre-hearing
conference may be granted by the Director. The second request may
be granted by the Board Chairman, or in his or her absence, the
Board Vice-Chairman.
b. Any further request for continuance or rescheduling, or any request

received after the five working days stated above, shall be presented
in person by the appellant, the Agency Head, or their respective
representative, to the Board when it next convenes and the same
shall be granted by the Board only upon a sufficient showing of good
and compelling cause.

15.10 Abandonment of Right to Appeal:
The appellant, or his/her representative, shall at all times keep the Director informed, in
writing, of his or her current telephone number, email address, and mailing address. It shall
be the responsibility of the appellant, or his/her representative, to inquire of the Director
bi-weekly as to all scheduling matters. Failure to comply with the foregoing may constitute
an abandonment of any further right to appeal.
15.11 Use of Communication Equipment:
(1) Definition. Communication equipment means a conference telephone or

other electronic device that permits all those appearing or participating to
hear and speak to each other, provided that all conversation of all parties is
audible to all persons present.
(2) Use by All Parties. The Board may, upon its own motion or upon the written
request of a party, direct that communication equipment be used for a
hearing, pre-hearing conference, or a status conference. The Board must
give notice to the parties and consider any objections they may have to the
use of communication equipment before directing that communication
equipment be used. The decision to use communication equipment over the
objection of parties will be in the sound discretion of the Board, except as
noted below.
(3) Testimony.
a. Generally. The Board may allow testimony to be taken through

communication equipment if all parties consent or if permitted by
another applicable rule of procedure.
b. Procedure. Any party desiring to present testimony through

communication equipment shall, prior to the hearing at which the
testimony is to be presented, contact all parties to determine
whether each party consents to this form of testimony. The party
seeking to present the testimony shall move for permission to
present testimony through communication equipment, which
motion shall set forth good cause as to why the testimony should
be allowed in this form.
c. Oath. Testimony may be taken through communication equipment

only if a notary public or other person authorized to administer
oaths in the witness’s jurisdiction is present with the witness and
administers the oath consistent with the laws of the jurisdiction.
d. Video Testimony. If the testimony to be presented utilizes video

conferencing or comparable two-way visual capabilities, the Board
in its discretion may modify the procedures set forth in this rule to
accommodate the technology utilized.

15.11 (Continued)
(4) Burden of Expense. The cost for the use of the communication equipment
is the responsibility of the requesting party unless otherwise directed by the
Board.
(5) When Court Reporting Requested by a Party. A court reporter is required

to be present at all Board meetings and hearings. The Board may provide
a court reporter at any other Board proceeding at its discretion. Where the
Board does not provide a court reporter, a party may request that a court
reporter be present at a proceeding. The party so requesting shall pay the
reporting fees, but this requirement shall not preclude the taxation of costs
as authorized by law.
(6) Record. When hearing proceedings are being reported in a transcript, no

part of the proceedings shall be omitted unless all of the parties agree to do
so and the Board approves the agreement.
(7) Ownership of Records. The Board is the owner of all records and
electronic records made in any proceedings required to be recorded or
reported at its expense, and proceedings reported or recorded for the
Board’s own use.
(8) Fees. Copies of any reports shall be provided and charged in accordance
with the Board’s public records policy.
(9) Transcripts. Transcripts of all proceedings, shall be uniform in all matters

and shall be stored in an electronic format sufficient to communicate the
information contained in proceedings in a readable format, and capable of
being transmitted electronically. Any transcripts stored in electronic form
must be capable of being printed as dictated by Rule 2.530 of the Florida
Rules of Judicial Administration.
(10) Court Reporting Services at the Board’s Expense.
a. When Reporting Is Required. All proceedings required by law,

court rule, or administrative order to be reported shall be reported
at the Board’s expense.
b. When Reporting May Be Required. Proceedings reported for the

Board’s own use may be reported at the Boards expense.

15.11 (Continued)
(11) Safeguarding Confidential Communications When Electronic Recording

Equipment Is Used:
a. The Director shall provide notice to participants in a Board

proceeding that electronic recording equipment is in use and that
they should safeguard information they do not want recorded.
b. Parties shall take all reasonable and available precautions to protect

against disclosure of confidential communications during recorded
proceedings. Such precautions may include muting microphones or
going to a designated location that is inaccessible to the recording
equipment.
c. Participants have a duty to protect confidential information.
15.12 Motion for Summary Judgment:
(1) Any party may move for summary judgment when it is believed that there
is no genuine issue of material fact; and, that he or she is entitled to prevail
as a matter of law.
(2) The Appointing Authority, or designated representative, may move for a

summary judgment based upon all or any part of the Civil Service Rules, or
the Appointing Authority's operating or administrative rules(s) violations
cited on CS Form 5.
(3) The Appellant, or designated representative, may move for a summary

judgment in that party's favor based upon all of the Civil Service Rules, or
the Appointing Authority's operating or administrative rule(s) violations
cited on CS Form 5.
(4) Unless electronically filed, the original and 10 hard copies of a Motion for
Summary Judgment, including affidavits, must be filed with the Director
and served by hand delivery, or first class mail on the opposing party, or
their designated representative, no later than 20 calendar days from the date
the appellant filed the CS Form 5A.
a. Any request for extension of deadlines or continuance or

rescheduling of a hearing must be submitted in writing with full
justification by the Appellant or Appointing Authority so as to reach
the Civil Service Office by the end of that business day which is no
later than five working days prior to the deadline or hearing date.
All such requests, except when prepared and signed by counsel or
other representative of the party, must be signed by the appellant or
the Agency Head. Such requests may be filed in accordance with
the Board’s electronic filing procedures.

15.12 (Continued)
b. Where an extension is requested and granted to either party, all

deadlines shall be extended for both parties accordingly.
(5) Motions for Summary Judgment shall comply with the following
requirements:
a. the motion shall state with particularity the grounds upon which the
moving party will rely for summary judgment and the substantial
matters to be argued;
b. all facts argued in support of the motion must be supported by

written testimony as described below in CSR 15. 12(5)(d), by
affidavit(s) or otherwise sworn or certified evidence, stipulation(s),
documents or other admissible evidence. Admissions contained in
CS Form 5 and CS Form 5A may be utilized to support a Motion for
Summary Judgment. Live testimony will not be taken at a hearing
on a Motion for Summary Judgment;
c. any documents supporting the motion must be properly

authenticated;
d. evidence submitted through written testimony shall be under oath or

under penalty of perjury; and, in the form of an affidavit, or
declaration, or a deposition or hearing transcript from other
proceedings; except that testimony offered as an admission by the
opposing party need not be sworn if properly authenticated;
e. evidence should be of the same quality that the Board would admit
at an evidentiary hearing.
(6) If the opposing party desires to file a response, including opposing affidavits
or other evidence, he or she shall file such response with the Director and
serve it on the opposing party, or their designated representative, within
fifteen (15) calendar days of receipt of the Motion for Summary Judgment,
but in no event, no later than five (5) calendar days prior to the scheduled
hearing. A party opposing summary judgment may not rely solely upon the
allegations or assertions of its CS Form 5 or CS Form 5A. A party opposing
summary judgment which disputes any fact offered by the moving party
must offer in its response admissible evidence which controverts such facts.
Any material facts which are uncontroverted or undisputed by competent
evidence as of the date of the hearing may be found to be true by the Board.
Such responses shall be filed in accordance with the Board’s electronic
filing procedures.

15.12 (Continued)
(7) Affidavits or other testimony shall be made on personal knowledge, shall

set forth such facts as would be admissible in evidence, and shall show
affirmatively that the affiant or witness is competent to testify to the matters
stated therein. Sworn or certified copies of all papers or parts thereof
referred to in an affidavit shall be attached to the affidavit or served
simultaneously with the affidavit.
(8) If it appears from the affidavit(s) of a party opposing the motion, that the
party cannot for reasons stated, present facts essential to support opposition
to the motion by affidavit, the Board may order a continuance to permit
affidavits to be obtained, or may make such other order as is just.
(9) The Board will schedule a hearing to consider oral arguments as soon as
possible consistent with other Board matters. Board Exhibit 1 sets forth the
Board’s authority to conduct the hearing and consists of the termination
status form, the CS Form 5, and the CS Form 5A.
(10) In the event that the party opposing the motion does not file a response and
does not appear at the hearing (either in person or via a chosen
representative), the Board shall dismiss the appeal for lack of prosecution.
The Board Chair may reopen the case if good cause for the lack of
appearance is provided within 30 days of the hearing date.
(11) The party, or designated representative, having introduced the Motion for
Summary Judgment will have fifteen (15) minutes to present oral arguments
to the Board supporting such motion, to include rebuttal.
(12) The party opposing the motion, or designated representative, shall also have
fifteen (15) minutes to present oral arguments to the Board opposing the
motion.
(13) The Board members may ask questions of either party, or their designated
representative, at the conclusion of that party's oral presentation.
(14) The judgment sought shall be rendered if the moving party presents
sufficient evidence that shows that there is no genuine issue as to any
material fact and that the moving party is entitled to a judgment as a matter
of law. Genuine issues which will preclude the granting of a summary
judgment are issues which can be supported by substantial competent
evidence. The Board shall vote separately on each rule violation for which
a party is pursuing summary judgment. The concurrence of the majority of
the Board members present and voting at the summary judgment hearing
shall be necessary for a summary judgment motion to be granted. Therefore,
in the event of a tied vote, the motion for summary judgment is denied.

15.12 (Continued)
(15) Should the Appointing Authority prevail on its Motion for Summary
Judgment, the disciplinary action imposed by the Appointing Authority
shall be considered upheld and the appeal dismissed. The decision of the
Board shall constitute a final Agency action.
(16) Should the Board deny the Appointing Authority's or the Appellant's
Motion for Summary Judgment, an evidentiary hearing shall be scheduled
as soon as possible.
(17) Should the Appellant prevail on his or her Motion for Summary Judgment,
the disciplinary action imposed by the Appointing Authority shall be
considered vacated in its entirety and the appellant placed in the same
position that he or she would have been in had the action not been taken.
The scope of relief provided by the Civil Service Board shall be in
accordance with Rules 15. 22and 15.24.
15.13 Subpoena Authority and Powers of the Board:
(1) The Director and/or a member of the Board is authorized to issue subpoenas
to compel the attendance of witnesses and the production of books,
accounts, records and documents at a final evidentiary hearing. [CSL
Section 12(4)]
(2) The Board, or any member thereof, may administer oaths and compel
testimony. [CSL Section 12(4)]
(3) Persons who disobey an order to testify or a subpoena to appear or produce

evidence, issued by the Board or any member thereof, can be compelled to
obey said order or subpoena through contempt proceedings. The Director
and/or member may initiate contempt proceedings in a court of competent
jurisdiction.
(4) It shall be the responsibility of any party seeking to compel the attendance
of a witness through subpoena to take the following steps:
a. Blank subpoena forms shall be obtained from the Civil Service

Office, shall be completed by the party, and returned to the Civil
Service Office for issuance in accordance with the electronic filing
provisions of this Rule.
b. Upon issuance, the party shall be responsible for obtaining service

of the subpoena by a person over the age of 18 years who is not a
party to the action, including the payment of any compensation for
the service of the subpoena. Service of the subpoena, including
witness fee and expenses, shall be made as provided in general
Florida law.

15.13 (Continued)
c. The party serving a subpoena shall be responsible for payment of

the witnesses’ fee and expenses as set by general Florida law. CSL
Section 12(4)]
The Board may also compel the attendance through subpoena of a witness or other
person at any hearing or regular Board meeting on its own initiative. In such case, the
Board shall be responsible for all costs of the service of the subpoena, including any
service fees and witness fees, which shall be audited and paid in the same manner as
other expenses. [CSL Section 12(4)]
15.14 Pre-Hearing Conference Requirements:
(1) To facilitate the formal appeal hearing proceedings, the Director shall
coordinate with the parties to schedule a Pre-Hearing Conference with the
General Counsel and provide notice. Such Pre-Hearing Conference shall
normally be scheduled within seven (7) calendar days after the expiration
of the deadline for filing Motions for Summary Judgment and shall be
attended by each party to the appeal hearing, or their designated
representative.
(2) A pre-hearing conference will be continued in matters where a party has

filed a Motion for Summary Judgment.
(3) The failure of either party, or their designated representative, to comply with
the requirements set forth herein shall give the Board cause to continue the
hearing, dismiss the appeal, or to impose other appropriate hearing related
sanctions. Should the hearing be delayed due to the appellant or the
appellant's designated representative's unexcused failure to participate in
the Pre-Hearing Conference, and the Appointing Authority be overturned at
a later date; make whole remedies as defined by CS Rule 15.24 will not
apply to the period from the delayed hearing to the date of the Board's final
decision to uphold the appeal.
(4) In any case in which a Pre-Hearing Conference is scheduled, it shall be the

responsibility of all parties, or their designated representatives, to meet
together no later than six (6) calendar days before the date of the Pre-
Hearing Conference (or at such other time as the Director may direct) in a
good faith effort to:
a. discuss the possibility of a settlement;
b. stipulate to as many facts or issues as possible;
c. examine all exhibits or documents and other items of tangible

evidence to be offered by any party at the hearing and exchange a
list thereof;

15.14 (Continued)
d. exchange the names, addresses, and telephone numbers of all

witnesses who may be called at the hearing; and, to the extent
possible, resolve any scheduling conflicts of such witnesses;
e. determine those issues of fact which are admitted and will require
no proof at the hearing; and, those issues of fact which remain to be
considered by the Board at the hearing; and
f. prepare a Pre-Hearing Statement in accordance with subsection (5)
of this rule.
(5) The Pre-Hearing Statement shall be filed with the Board no later than three
(3) calendar days before the date of the Pre-Hearing Conference, (or at such
other time as the Director may direct) and shall contain:
a. a concise statement of the nature of the action;
b. a brief, general statement of each party’s case;
c .a list of all exhibits to be offered at the hearing with notation of all

objections thereto;
d. a list of all witnesses who may be called at the hearing;
e. a concise statement of those facts which are admitted and will

require no proof at the hearing, together with any reservations
directed to such admissions;
f. a concise statement of those issues of fact which remain to be

litigated (without incorporation by reference to prior pleadings and
memoranda);
g. a list of all motions or other matters which require action by the

Board; and
h. the signature of each party, or their designated representatives.
(6) The Director may dispense with the requirement to hold a Pre-Hearing
Conference in cases where the parties, or their designated representatives,
timely submit a Pre-Hearing Statement in compliance with CSR 15.14 4(5)
(Items a through h) or pending the outcome of a Motion for Summary
Judgment.

15.14 (Continued)
(7) The General Counsel shall address all preliminary, non-dispositive motions
and make evidentiary rulings on any objections designated in the Pre-
Hearing Statement to the exhibits, documents, or other documentary
evidence offered by either party, either at the Pre-Hearing Conference or
thereafter or, if the requirement to hold a Pre-Hearing Conference has been
vacated, in a pre-hearing order prior to the day of the evidentiary hearing.
The General Counsel shall also set the amount of time in which the hearing
in the case may be tried. The time allotted to hear appeals of suspensions
will be 45 minutes per side. The time allotted to hear appeals of demotions
or terminations will be 60 minutes per side. If either party shows good
cause, the Board Chairman may increase these time limits. Any rulings
made by the General Counsel at the Pre-Hearing Conference or thereafter
may be appealed to the Board at the time of the appeal hearing.
(8) The Pre-Hearing Statement and the pre-hearing order, if any, will control
the course of the hearing and may not be amended except by order of the
Board in the furtherance of justice. If new evidence or witnesses are
discovered after filing of the Pre-Hearing Statement, the party desiring to
call the same shall immediately notify all other parties, or their designated
representatives, and the Director, and such use shall be permitted only by
order of the Board in the furtherance of justice.
15.15 Marking and Listing of Exhibits:
(1) Each party, or their designated representative, shall properly mark all
exhibits proposed to be offered into evidence at the appeal hearing
proceedings. Exhibits, whether or not stipulated into evidence, shall be
prepared and submitted as follows:
a. Stipulated Exhibits:
1. Each exhibit shall be marked and tabbed separately (i.e. Joint

Exhibit 1, Joint Exhibit 2, etc.)
2. An indexed list of such exhibits, with a descriptive notation

sufficient to identify each separate number exhibit shall be
included.
3. All exhibits and the index shall be combined into an

electronic binder or, if not filed electronically, shall be
fastened in a folder, along with a memorandum signed by
each party, or their designated representative, signifying
agreement to the offering of such documents.

15.15 (Continued)
b. Unstipulated Exhibits:
1. Each exhibit shall be marked and tabbed separately (i.e.

Appointing Authority Exhibit 1, Appointing Authority
Exhibit 2, etc, or Appellant Exhibit 1, Appellant Exhibit 2,
etc, as applicable.)
2. An indexed list of such exhibits, with a descriptive notation

sufficient to identify each separately numbered exhibit shall
be included.
3. All exhibits and the index shall be combined into an

electronic binder or, if not filed electronically, shall be
fastened in a folder.
(2) Pre-Hearing Conference: Unless electronically filed, each party, or their

designated representative, shall furnish a hard copy of the stipulated
exhibits to the opposing party, or their designated representative, and ten
(10) hard copies to the Board's Clerk, no later than five (5) calendar days
prior to the hearing date, or the date set at the Pre-Hearing Conference.
(3) Hearing Before the Board: Unless electronically filed, each party, or their
designated representative, shall furnish the opposing party, or their
designated representative, a hard copy of those exhibits which have not been
stipulated, not later than five (5) calendar days prior to the hearing, and shall
furnish ten (10) hard copies to the Board's Clerk at the commencement of
the hearing.
15.16 Findings of Fact:
Each party may electronically submit proposed findings of fact to the Director not later
than the commencement of the appeal hearing. Self-represented employees who do not
have the means to electronically file, may submit proposed findings by hard copy. These
may be utilized in the drafting of findings of fact, and will not be distributed to the Board
prior to the hearing.
15.17 Board Composition During Appeal Hearings:
(1) The Chair or Vice Chair, and General Counsel will be present at appeal
hearings. In the absence of both the Chair and the Vice Chair, the most
senior member of the Board present shall assume the role of Chair.
However, in no case shall a hearing proceed in the absence of the General
Counsel.
(2) The concurrence of the majority of the Board members present and voting
at such hearings shall be necessary for any action to be taken.

15.18 Accommodations for Persons with Disabilities:
(1) Reasonable Accommodation: Qualified individuals with a disability will

be provided, at the Board’s expense, with reasonable accommodations,
modifications to rules, policies, or practices, or the provision of auxiliary
aids and services, necessary to participate in appeal process provided by
the Board. A request will be considered in accordance with paragraph (e)
below.
(2) Definitions: The definitions encompassed in the Americans with

Disabilities Act of 1990, as amended, 42 U.S.C. § 12101, et seq., are
incorporated into this rule.
(3) Notice Requirement:
a. All notices of Board proceedings to be held in a public facility, and

all process compelling appearance at such proceedings, shall
include the following statement in bold face, 14-point Times New
Roman or Courier font:
“If you are a person with a disability who needs any

accommodation in order to participate in this
proceeding, you are entitled, at no cost to you, to
the provision of certain assistance. Please contact
[identify applicable staff by name, address, and
telephone number] at least 7 days before your
scheduled appearance, or immediately upon receiving
this notification if the time before the scheduled
appearance is less than 7 days; if you are hearing
or voice impaired, call 711.”
(4) Process for Requesting Accommodations: The process for requesting

accommodations is as follows:
a. Requests for accommodations under this rule may be presented on

a form approved or substantially similar to one approved by the
Board, in another written format, or orally. Requests must be
forwarded to the designated staff person, within the time frame
provided in paragraph (4)c.
b. Requests for accommodations must include a description of the

accommodation sought, along with a statement of the impairment
that necessitates the accommodation and the duration that the
accommodation is to be provided. The Board, in its discretion, may
require the individual with a disability to provide additional
information about the impairment. Requests for accommodation
shall not include any information regarding the merits of the case.

15.18 (Continued)
c. Requests for accommodations must be made at least 7 days before

the scheduled appearance, or immediately upon receiving
notification if the time before the scheduled appearance is less than
7 days. The Board may, in its discretion, waive this requirement.
(5) The Director must respond to a request for accommodation as follows:
a. The Director must consider, but is not limited by, the provisions of
the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, as amended, in
determining whether to provide an accommodation or an
appropriate alternative accommodation.
b. The Director must inform the individual with a disability of the

following:
1. That the request for accommodation is granted or denied, in

whole or in part, and if the request for accommodation is
denied, the reason therefor; or that an alternative
accommodation is granted;
2. The nature of the accommodation to be provided, if any;
and
3. The duration of the accommodation to be provided.
c. If the request for accommodation is granted in its entirety, the

Director shall respond to the individual with a disability by any
appropriate method. If the request is denied or granted only in part,
or if an alternative accommodation is granted, the Director must
respond to the individual with a disability in writing, as may be
appropriate, and if applicable, in an alternative format.
d. If the Director determines that a person is a qualified person with a

disability and an accommodation is needed, a request for
accommodation may be denied only when the Board determines
that the requested accommodation would create an undue financial
or administrative burden on the Board or would fundamentally
alter the nature of the proceedings.

15.19 Evidentiary Hearing Procedures:
(1) Evidentiary hearings conducted by the Board under Civil Service Rule 14
or Civil Service Rule 15 shall comply with Florida open-meeting law.
(2) For guidance of the parties, evidentiary hearings ordinarily proceed in the
following sequence unless otherwise stipulated by the parties; or upon the
determination of the General Counsel or the Board it appears that a different
procedure or deviation from this procedure, shall be appropriate:
a. The Board shall address any preliminary matters including motions

in limine, motions to sequester witnesses, or other procedural or
substantive matters which should be addressed before introduction
of the evidence.
b. Witnesses shall be identified and sworn.
c. Each party may make an opening statement. Opening statements are

not evidence and are not designed for argument of the case. Rather,
the opening statement provides the parties an opportunity to inform
the Board of the facts that the party believes will be shown by the
evidence as they relate to the alleged violation(s) of Civil Service
Rules(s) or Agency policy(ies) and/or procedure(s). The party
bearing the burden of proof shall proceed first.
d. The party bearing the burden of proof shall proceed with its case by
calling witnesses and introducing documentary or other evidence.
Subsequently, the responding party shall proceed with his or her
case. The party bearing the burden of proof, upon cause shown, may
be allowed limited rebuttal. Surrebuttal shall not be permitted except
when the interests of justice so require.
e. Each witness called by any party may be cross-examined by the

opposing party. Re-direct examination shall be permitted. Re-cross
examination shall be permitted only upon good cause. At the
conclusion of examination by the parties, the Board shall have the
opportunity to inquire of the witness.
f. After the conclusion of the evidence, each party shall have the
opportunity to present closing argument. Closing argument is not
evidence, but is designed to inform the Board of each party's
position as to the facts demonstrated by the evidence and whether or
not the alleged violation(s) of Civil Service Rules(s) or Agency
policy(ies) and/or procedures(s) have been proven.
g. After closing argument, the Board shall conduct its deliberations in

open meeting. The Board shall vote separately on each alleged Civil
Service Rule violation.

15.20 Burden of Proof:
(1) It is the responsibility of the Appellant or designated representative to prove

by a preponderance of the evidence that the Agency lacked just cause for
imposing discipline. A "preponderance of the evidence" simply means that
amount of evidence which is enough to persuade the Board that the facts
asserted by the Appellant, or designated representative, are more likely true
than not true and that those facts do not support the Agency’s allegations
that the Appellant’s conduct constitutes a violation of the Civil Service
Rules identified on the formal notice of discipline (CS Form 5).
(2) In deciding whether any fact has been proven by a preponderance of the
evidence, a Board member may consider the testimony of all witnesses,
regardless of who may have called them, and all exhibits received in
evidence, regardless of who may have introduced them.
(3) In all Board hearings, including hearings to consider motions of any type
made by either party, the moving party must prevail by a majority of the
Board members present and voting. In the case of an appeal or grievance
hearing, the appellant is the moving party. In the case of a hearing to
consider a motion for summary judgment or other motion, the party filing
the motion is the moving party. In the event of a tie vote, the moving party
shall not prevail.
15.21 Fact Finding, Evidence, Testimony, and Credibility of Witnesses:
(1) The Board, acting in its quasi-judicial capacity during such hearings, must
initially make a determination about those facts which are relevant to the
ultimate issue before the Board. Where those facts are not in dispute, the
Board is entitled to accept and rely upon the undisputed facts as its own.
Where those facts are in dispute, the Board must resolve the factual disputes
created either by testimony or by documentary evidence.
(2) In resolving factual disputes, the Board should consider only the evidence
that is properly before it, that is, the testimony of the witnesses, and the
exhibits admitted in the record. However, as the Board considers the
evidence, both direct and circumstantial, it may make deductions,
inferences, and reach conclusions which reason and common sense lead it
to make.
(3) “Direct evidence” is the testimony of one who asserts actual knowledge of
a fact, such as an eyewitness. "Circumstantial evidence" is proof of a chain
of facts and circumstances tending to prove, or disprove, an ultimate
conclusion. Nothing the Appointing Authority’s representative, or the
appellant’s representative says is evidence in the case, nor is anything said
in the opening statements, the closing arguments, or objections, whether
stated by lawyers or by parties representing themselves. It is the Board's
own recollection and interpretation of the evidence that controls its
decision.

15.21 (Continued)
(4) All testimony shall be under oath. Irrelevant, immaterial or unduly

repetitious evidence shall be excluded. All other evidence of the type
commonly relied upon by reasonably prudent persons in the conduct of their
affairs shall be admissible, whether or not such evidence would be
admissible in the courts of Florida. Hearsay evidence may be introduced
and used for supplementing or explaining other evidence, but it shall not be
sufficient in itself to support a finding by the Board unless it would be
admissible over objections in a civil action. [CSL Section 12 (3)(4)]
(5) The fact that the Civil Service Board must consider all of the evidence does
not mean that the Board must accept all of the evidence as true or accurate.
Each Board member should determine the credibility of each witness'
testimony and the relative importance of that testimony. In making that
decision, a Board member may believe or disbelieve any witness, in whole
or in part. The credibility of the evidence, and not the number of witnesses
testifying concerning any particular fact in dispute, is controlling.
15.22 Modification or Reduction of Disciplinary Actions Impermissible:
(1) It is not part of the Board's function to determine whether the degree or type
of action is appropriate. Therefore, the Board may not reduce, increase or
otherwise modify the action imposed upon the appellant by the Agency
Head. If the conduct which is proven establishes a violation of at least one
of the Civil Service Rules, the action taken must be upheld in its entirety. If
the conduct which is proven does not establish a violation of the Civil
Service Rules, or if the action taken is found not to be for just cause, the
action must be vacated in its entirety and the appellant placed in the same
position that he or she would have been in had the action not been taken.
(2) In determining whether or not the conduct which is proven supports the
action of the Agency Head, the Board shall consider each alleged violation
cited on Civil Service Form 5.
(3) In cases where the appellant does not contest the cited violations of the Civil
Service Rules or Law, or the Agency's operational or administrative rules
and procedures; and, when it becomes apparent that the only relief sought
is to reduce the discipline imposed, the Board may dismiss the appeal upon
filing of an appropriate motion.
15.23 Final Order of the Board:
(1) Within ten (10) calendar days of the conclusion of the appeal hearing, the
Director or a member of the Board shall issue a Final Order to the affected
parties, setting forth its findings, conclusions, and the reasons therefore. The
ten day period begins on the day following the conclusion of the appeal
hearing. [CSL Section 11(5)]

15.23 (Continued)
(2) Except as otherwise provided in CS Rule 15.25 below, the decision(s) of

the Board in any appeal hearing shall be considered final and binding on all
affected parties subject to review pursuant to the Florida Rules of Appellate
Procedure.
15.24 Remedies:
(1) Except as provided in CS Rule 15.25 below or as otherwise provided in

these rules, a prevailing appellant in an appeal hearing will be entitled to be
made whole from any adverse effects of the action imposed. The scope of
relief may include; but, may not be limited to:
a. Back pay.
b. Reinstatement of lost benefits.
c. Reinstatement to fringe benefit plans.
d. Retroactive seniority.
(2) In determining relief, the Board may take into account mitigating factors
such as interim earnings and fringe benefits received, good faith efforts to
secure alternative employment, and the reasonableness of request for
continuance of hearing dates, and other equitable factors recognized under
applicable precedent.
(3) Attorney fees and cost of litigation will not be recoverable by either party
to an appeal.
15.25 Administrative Office of the Courts - Hearing to Review Actions of Dismissal,

Involuntary Demotion for Cause, or Suspension:
(1) Any employee holding a position within the Administrative Office of the
Courts (Court Administrator) which was classified as of January 1, 1998,
and which was funded by Hillsborough County Board of County
Commissioners, may request a hearing to review a dismissal, involuntary
demotion for cause, or suspension. Such a request shall be made as
otherwise provided in these rules.
(2) The practice and procedure of the Board with respect to a review shall be in
accordance with adopted Civil Service Rules. If the Board finds that such
Court employee's dismissal, involuntary demotion for cause, or suspension
was for a reason other than just cause, it may recommend to the Chief Judge
that such employee be restored to that employee's former status. Such
recommendation is not binding on the Chief Judge.

15.26 Ex Parte Communications:
Members of the Civil Service Board sit as a quasi-judicial body during hearings held to
consider an appeal of a disciplinary action affecting the substantial interests of an
employee. In this capacity a Board member may not receive an ex parte communication
from an affected party. Ex parte communication occurs when a Board member
communicates with one party to an appeal to the exclusion of the other party or parties, or
when a Board member initiates discussions about a case with third parties. Under generally
accepted legal principles Board members are prohibited from consulting any person, or
party on any fact in issue unless upon notice and opportunity to all parties in the proceeding.
15.27 Forms:
Forms cited in this Rule are available at www.hccsb.org

Hillsborough County Administrator v. Hillsborough County Civil Service Board

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Hillsborough County Administrator v. Hillsborough County Civil Service Board

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Filing # 81416480 E-Filed 11/29/2018 04:22:05 PM

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT

v. Lower Tribunal Case No.:18-834

PETITION FOR WRIT OF CERTIORARI

9.190(b)(3), seeks a writ of certiorari to quash a quasi-judicial order of the Respondent

Children’s Services Department.

In support thereof, Petitioner states as follows:

1st DCA 2012); Broward County, 787 So.2d at 843.

children and their caregivers.

the County its right to procedural due process.

The County was denied procedural due process by the CSB

General Counsel’s statutory duties and authority.

got a job with the county.” (A-331).

authority to return an employee to a different position.

returned to his former job:

reinstate Lawson to his former position in Children’s Services:

Rule 15.22(1), CSB Rules (emphasis supplied) (A-405)

supervising children himself.

supervising children and their caregivers.

CSB’s General Counsel (A-324).

2. The CSB’s General Counsel exercised discretion reflecting an unconstitutional

objections, acting as the judge of the evidence during the hearing:

“MR. ZINOBER: He can testify as to what evidence he considered to support his

MS. GREEN (the County’s attorney): Yes.

MR. ZINOBER: I think we’ve heard enough.

MS. GREEN: I do have another question.

MR. ZINOBER: Well, I think we’ve heard enough.

MS. GREEN: I think it’s important.

MR. ZINOBER: Based upon what?

in process. Does that make sense?

“MS. GREEN: I’m going to object. That wasn’t the testimony.

“MS. GREEN: Objection again.

MR. ZINOBER: Overruled. Go ahead and answer the question.” (A-124)

“MR. ZINOBER: I assume this witness is not going to be excused?

MS. GREEN: No. And I have another question.

next witness.” (A-124)

MS. GREEN: Well, I’m attempting to refresh recollection.

For example, the Florida Code of Judicial Conduct provides:

judge and as a lawyer simultaneously during the same quasi-judicial hearing.

“…administrative officers or bodies may be granted quasi-judicial power in matters

to the General Counsel within its Rules.

needed…” Section 7(2)7, Civil Service Act of 2000. (A-363)

delegated to its General Counsel.

Op. Atty. Gen. 072-64 (1972) (emphasis supplied). Further:

The CSB Departed from the Essential Requirements of Law.

of certiorari review: a violation of a clearly established principle of law resulting in a miscarriage

the CSB as to Rule 11.2(26).

General Counsel’s striking of evidence on several occasions, certiorari should be granted.

which was granted. The Second DCA stated:

Newman, 174 So.2d at 481 (emphasis supplied.)

Because the General Counsel’s striking of testimony resulted in an absence of evidence

the CSB’s order on certiorari. Id.

/s/ Thomas M. Gonzalez

/s/ Thomas M. Gonzalez

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT

HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 18-CA-11650

/s/ Thomas M. Gonzalez

/s/ Thomas M. Gonzalez

Tab No. Document

1 Findings of Fact, Conclusions of Law, and Order

2 Transcript of the October 12, 2018 Hearing of the

3 Civil Service Act, Chapter 2000-445 and 2014-230,

4 Civil Service Rule 11

FINDINGS OF FACT, CONCLUSIONS OF LAW, AND ORDER