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Differences between the Technics P23 and P30

cartridges?
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11 posts • Page 1 of 1
Report this post (./report.php?f=19&p=275894)

Differences between the Technics P23 and P30 cartridges? (#p275894)

by ihatesanity » 13 Mar 2011 00:52
I've been lurking here for a couple weeks and gleaning some wonderful information that has been
very beneficial to the listening enjoyment of my new-to-me Technics SL-10. However, now I have a
question of my own...

I've been acquiring "broken" Technics turntables to harvest the cartridges from to use on the SL-10.
The three functional cartridges I have are a Stanton L717E, a Technics P23, and a Technics P30. At
this point, the only one that has an intact stylus is the Stanton. From Jico, I ordered a D71E stylus
for the Stanton L717E and an EPS23ED (it's SAS) for the Technics P23 (I didn't have the P30 when I
made the order, or it probably would have gotten a new stylus too).

The big question on my mind is: would the P23 stylus I ordered work properly on the P30 cartridge?
Would there even be a real benefit to putting the P23 stylus on the P30 cartridge since they both
have identical output specifications (based on the stylus database)?

My intuition is that since both the P23 and P30 cartridges (sans styli) have identical dimension and
the busted styli that I have from each seem perfectly interchangeable, then it doesn't look like a
problem. Still the same, I wanted to ask you guys so that I don't go screwing something up.

Thanks!
Ron

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Report this post (./report.php?f=19&p=275895)

(#p275895)
by fscl » 13 Mar 2011 00:58
Check out this recent thread under the guise of the SL-7:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=35026
(https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=35026)

dlm does an excellent analysis of the Technics P Types / Mounts.

Good luck.

Fred and with P 22 and 23......

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Report this post (./report.php?f=19&p=275960)

(#p275960)
by dlaloum » 13 Mar 2011 09:50

HI Guys,
I measured a bunch of technics cartridges - but the question remains valid.

Although the bodies look identical - there appears to be two series of styli, under the pfanstiehl
designations they are the 718 and 798 series.

There may in fact be no difference - I just don't know!!

In terms of the underlying cartridge generator (coils) - the P23, p24, p30, p33, p153 and others....
all appear to be identical (within the normal variations of mass production).

I don't have a working needle for these bodies - else I would experiment to work this out!

According to the Turntableneedles data:

the 798 fits the 33, 100, 205, 30, 33, 40, 50, 51, 54, 55, 510, 540 550

And the 718 fits the 22, 202, 23, 24, 25, 27, 28, 53, 511, 228, 128

But I would not be surprised at all to discover that they are a valid cross-fit.

bye for now

David

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Report this post (./report.php?f=19&p=275965)

(#p275965)
by bubba45 » 13 Mar 2011 10:21

I have a P22 & P30 and the styli are perfectly interchangeable from my recent experience. I used
the stylus from the p22 on my P30 with no apparent poblems at all.
Richard from Vantage Audio was up here last weekend and he has a fairly extensive collection of P-
mount carts and a vast experience of DD tables.
His opinion is that the P205 is the creme de la creme of the Technics MM P-mount carts (which is
born out by their price I guess) and then after this comes the P202 / P22 followed by the P30 cart
and then he ranked the others but as I don't have any of them I lost interest after that.
I presume he meant in terms of specs as well as listening quality. Personally I value his opinion
when it comes to DD and p-mount carts.

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Report this post (./report.php?f=19&p=275966)

(#p275966)
by dlaloum » 13 Mar 2011 10:48

Most of the manufacturers measure and rank their cartridges as they are made.... this means that
many of the bodies are in fact identical in a manufacturing sense...

But they have tighter (or looser) specs by channel (ie how closely balanced the channels are)...

Beyond that there is the potential for differing approaches / materials to be used in
controlling/damping microvibrations of the coils and cartridge body...

I would be very interested to know whether there is any real difference in the construction of the
205 as opposed to the commonplace 23/24/33.

If not then having measured and ranked a whole bunch of these babies myself - it may be that I
have in my hands an EPC33 that performs like an EPC205.... - which would be very cool.
But usually there are material differences.

Look at the AT series - AT10/11/12/13/14 plastic bodies AT15/20 Metal bodies (internal differences
unknown, but the top two are about 2g heavier)
Also AT120/130/140/440 plastic body, AT150 metal body (looks very very similar to AT15/20)

But I know little about the Technics series, and if someone has had a go at dismantling some of
these - please post and tell us all about it !

bye for now

David

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Report this post (./report.php?f=19&p=275968)

(#p275968)
by dlaloum » 13 Mar 2011 10:59

P.S. the EPC205 has a completely different stylus surround/shroud (the plastic stylus holder) - I
sincerely doubt that an EPC205 stylus would fit on a member of the 718/798 family.

Although the actual stylus shanks looks to be of the same proportion (from photos) - so it might fit
- but would require some "plastic surgery".

Given the cost of NOS 205 styli (and their rarity) - a SAS stylus is a true bargain!!
And it is available in the right shroud to fit either a 205 or a 718/798 family member ....

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Report this post (./report.php?f=19&p=276517)

(#p276517)
by ihatesanity » 16 Mar 2011 01:21

Thanks for all the info, guys! I really appreciate it!

David, you mentioned testing Technics cartridges both here and in a similar thread about an SL-7
(it was my bad for not noticing that before posting this question.) Is it safe to test the cartridge
resistance and inductance with a regular old VOM multimeter, or would I have to use a VTVM?

Also, I don't have an inductance meter of any sort to test the inductors with, but I do have an RF
frequency generator with variable output gain and I've seen some equations that will let you
calculate inductance with a frequency generator, a resistor of a known value and multimeter. With
that in mind, would a 1 volt AC signal input be too much for the inductors in a phono cartridge? I'm
sure the current would be very low since it would be in series with a resistor, but I have to ask
since my working knowledge of electronics is probably more dangerous than useful!

Thanks!
Ron

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Report this post (./report.php?f=19&p=276521)

(#p276521)
by dlaloum » 16 Mar 2011 01:36

Heh from the sound of it, you know more about electronics than I do.

I asked the question - there is apparently some concern about older multimeters (analogue) which
put out substantial current when measuring resistance - this is particularly with the more delicate
Low Output MC's.

I went out a purchased a new Digital MultiMeter specifically because I wanted inductance and
capacitance measurement, to Help me in configuring my cartridge loading right! (was only $40 ...)

Concensus is there is no problem measuring standard MM's, MI's and even MC's with current DMM's.

Yes you can measure inductance with a signal generator (that's how the DMM's do it) - the details of
the required circuit and signal levels are outside my ken....

Also keep in mind that inductance does vary with frequency, I believe most DMM's measure at
10kHz, but I know that Audio Technica for one provide their specs measured at 1kHz.... as a result
they can differ a bit. (with a signal generator you can control that of course, whereas with a DMM
I'm stuck with what I got - but it is real simple to use!)

I just don't know enough the be able to Help you with this....

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will chip in

bye for now

David

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Report this post (./report.php?f=19&p=277275)

(#p277275)
by ihatesanity » 19 Mar 2011 23:23

David,

I wouldn't say that I know much about electronics. I've just amassed a little bit of older equipment
so that I could calibrate old, German radios (and a couple American ones too, for practice.) That
said, I'm pretty good at soldering, using Google to translate calibration instructions from German to
English, and at not grounding the ~400vac B+ voltage with my body, but apart from that, all bets
are off :p

Thanks for the additional info. I checked, and the lowest frequency on my frequency generator is
~160kc :-/ I guess I'll have to find another one after I move.

Since I have several meters, I decided to check the voltage across the leads when testing
resistance for both my DMM and an analog VOM. The test voltage from the DMM was considerably
lower than that of the analog VOM (I can't remember the exact numbers and I can't check again
right now because I already packed that stuff up.) Naturally, I didn't think to check the current
under test as well

I used the DMM to check all my cartridges and found that the Stanton cartridge has more closely
matched resistance (543/545 ohm) than any of the Technics cartridges (differ by ~5 ohm).

Thanks again,
Ron

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Report this post (./report.php?f=19&p=277289)

(#p277289)
by dlaloum » 20 Mar 2011 01:00
As an aside, I believe that the resistance is the less important spec - a variation in resistance will
affect channel balance (a tweak of the balance pot on the amp can fix that!)...

Variation on inductance is much much sneakier, it changes the frequency response behaviour of the
cartridge, and shifts the peaks and troughs, so the balance will be off differently in different
frequency ranges.

I have some cartridges which are several % out in resistance but very close in inductance - planning
to try those out, I believe they should be good...

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Report this post (./report.php?f=19&p=279997)

(#p279997)
by dlaloum » 01 Apr 2011 11:21

This is a retraction / adjustment of my previous comment...

subsequent experiments have shown that frequency response varies with voltage/level !. (I
measured some tracks at 33rpm then at 45rpm, and made the proper adjustments to RIAA EQ to
compensate - but resulting F/R did differ - not hugely but measurably)

I'm still trying to get my head around that whole idea...

but the result it that an imbalance in resistance, will affect the voltage output and as a result also
the frequency response.... if there is also an inductive imbalance at the same time, then it will
exacerbate it.

So making sure that the inductance AND resistance/impedance of the cartridge are very well
matched is critical to getting a good result.

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