Ahmed Abdellah

Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin
Danielle Delp Interview Transcription

DD
I'm Danielle Delp and I consent to being recorded.

AA
So to begin, can you describe an overview of the work that you've completed, but the greatest
impact relating to algae and

DD
Okay, so just to be clear, I'm still the first year PhD student, so I haven't been in the field too
long. I'm currently on the second product I've ever worked on. In my career, the first project I
worked on was at Rochester New technology. And I worked with I didn't really work with bio
field so much there, my lab did work with biofuels, but I was more interest or as much interested
in but the project I happened to be more part of was involving water remediation. So we were
growing algae on water that we were up taking from streams, and ponds, mostly plants, filtering
it through a biofilm of algae that we had grown, and basically just trying to combat the influx of
nutrients into that water, right. I remember at the end of the project, one of the things that we had
as a problem was we had all this algae and nothing to do with it. So when I came here, I had the
opportunity work with Dr. Lansing who was working on a project to process that algae into
something usable. And specifically, the project I'm working on now is turning it into biomethane
at all its biogas was a mix of methane and other gases, but it's mostly methane. So it's kind of
like an extension of the work I did before. But specifically aimed towards biofuel, our lab
produces biofuel from all sorts of different things. So when newer food waste, just the
technology at this lab happens uses anaerobic digestion technology.

Ahmed Abdellah 1:43

So which, which of these possible biofuels like regarding like first generation, second generation,
where do you think has the greatest possibility of replacing fossil fuels

DD 1:58
in terms of practical feasibility, specifically from Algae, and the broad set on the broad, broad
sense? In a perfect world, probably the second generation ones are better because they have a
lower environmental impact. But realistically, speaking, from a cost perspective, you're going to
hear this a lot for if you interview any professor who works in this field, that we need the first
generation ones for now, it's sort of a stopgap measure, and also to get people more familiar with
the technologies. And then we kind of move from there. So technically, I'm not sure if my
account is a first for a second because it is a it's a carbon based source, right? So burning, it does
Ahmed Abdellah
Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin
produce problematic compounds. But you don't have the problem, like it's not solar, right, you
still get something out of it, that is a problem. in some capacity. It's not totally clean. So it's a
complicated question, really think that in terms of short term, definitely the first generation, long
term, second generation, certainly, I mean, you can see anywhere, really, there's just so much
interest in investing in the, you know, the things that are less financially feasible, but better in the
long run, like people want to get invested as a matter of time.

AA
Yeah. And like also the problem with ethanol and how it's kind of diminishing away like from
food sources

DD
Absolutely. Yeah. The anaerobic digestion technology that we work with actually can also use
corn waste. I don't work on this personally. But I know there's been some interest from other
people in our lab to actually take the waste products of ethanol production, it's I think it's called
the scholars green. I'm not too familiar with it and actually using that as a co digested with the
algae or whatever else for throat because those are the answers, you can check anything in them
in the home baked biogas eventually. So yeah, that there's a big push I've been seeing recently
for incorporating the production of multiple biofuels to reduce the overall cost and the overall
monumental impact, basically squeezing out every last drop of energy that you can in the system.
There's a lot of interest in that right now.

AA
So in terms of like, how do you or have you worked with like the lipid extraction of the algae?

DD
My lab did, I did not personally. I was mostly more interested in like field studies. So one of my
co workers did and I don't know the exact method. I think she used hexane to extract it. The I
want to say anything concrete was actually gotten. I haven't worked with it personally. But, yeah.

AA
So as someone working in environmental science field why do you believe that there's such a
lack of awareness in this country?

DD
See, a biofuel specifically or

AA
Ahmed Abdellah
Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin
just clean energy in general

DD
I don't know if there's a lack of awareness of I mean, you just have to look at something like the
Tesla, it's all over the news. They're renewable energy is way more out there in the public eye
than it was even a decade ago. They're like, there is a push for it. But you're right, there does
seem to be more marketing of it. It also depends on a state by state basis too I mean, if your area
happens to be doing a lot more with those technologies, like I know, California is gonna be 20
years I had a lot they have a lot of incentive projects for this stuff. New Hampshire, I think it's
also another big one. I can't remember why but I get I know I've been here you had to have share
lotteries. Again, depends on where you are. It depends on the incentives that are in place, the
resources available for marketing. It's, again, it's a very complex issue. And I think it could be
done better. I mean, scientific journalism, and better outreach with the, with the public to get
people more behind these technologies that we more of that we really do.

Ahmed Abdellah 6:01

So where do you think that all begins, like with policy or through just activists?

DD
The first year I was ever in college for environmental science, I always remember there was a
professor who told me like that the most important thing, if you are being an environmental
scientist is to remember that you are not an activist, your job is to get the data out there in an
impartial way. So you don't really want to come down any side of the issue. activism is good, to
connect with the public more and to get people more aware of those issues of like to get them
more aware that the technology's there at the problems are there. And it's useful to have them and
collaborate with them. Not directly, obviously, but I think that both sides have their part to play
in it. I'm not sure if one is, I mean, realistically, activism is more direct with the people. So you
know, they're the ones out there everyday pushing these problem keeping them the forefront. But
the scientists are the ones who actually that I want to say it's the it's the isolate, that sounds
terrible, but they kind of have to maintain help in a different way. Basically, they create the
technologies, and the activists are the ones who actually communicate with the public.

AA
Yeah alright. So I have done a lot of like recent research on co culturing microalgae with
wastewater treatment.

DD
Oh cool.
Ahmed Abdellah
Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin

AA
And I was just wondering, like, what do you think of the practicality and the sustainability of
algae, and its ability to be implemented around the world?

DD
Okay. Which species are you growing?

AA
I'm not growing any, but I'm just looking at, like, I'm looking at a lot of different kinds, like I
have, like here with like, the open pond systems and like algae monoculture.

DD
Okay. So are you just saying like, which one do you think is best?

AA
Yeah.

DD
Okay. So I’ve grown a lot and the thing with the lab growth of algae is you get a very pure
culture, if you're doing a monoculture, and you're growing them and di water effectively, right.
So it's not purely, I usually put nutrients. And usually, when you grow algae in the lab, you spike
it with nutrients into the water, and then it's very isolated. It's very cool. That's not how the
real--so the resources involved in pure monoculture are very high, you need to have a DI water
producer, which is very expensive, and can't produce water very quickly. I mean, we have on our
lab, and if it runs out, it takes an hour to refill. So as a resource limitation, if it breaks, it's very
expensive to maintain. nutrients are pretty cheap. So I mean, the lab I used to work and we used
to just soak fertilized repellents, you get some overnight. That's not a problem. But, and while
you do get a very pure culture that you can extract from very easily, you can't do it in large
volumes. And that's the biggest problem with pure micro culture, especially monoculture is
scaling it up, it's very easy to make a leader algae on the lab bench, blast it to extract the lipids
and process it. In terms of a Raceway pond, I've also worked with those a little bit not as I mean,
I guess technically the ATF system that I work with now is basically Raceway system what
basically happens with that is you just sort of run water over it from a you don't see that or
anything. Because I don't think you ever taken a microbiome class, but there are seeds for every
bacteria and algae imaginable in natural waterways, if you just run water over something,
General girl on it. And you end up with this massive Matt of algae basically. And I mean, the
Ahmed Abdellah
Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin
disadvantages of that: they're not pure. So you could have wildly different streams. And lipid
content, if you if you're doing liquid biofuels is highly variable between novel species. You also
deal with a lot of chats that gets left behind. If you have macro algae, you've got a lot of carbon
and junk, it's left over after extraction, because that's a problem. And if you're doing any
scientific research on it, since it's not a uniform culture, it does make it a little bit tricky to make
statistically significant observations, because you can really only compare it with yourself, the
replicability is very low. So it makes it very difficult. In terms of which one of the best. I think in
most realistic terms probably more of an outdoor pond system would probably be probably the
most profitable when it's running just because you wouldn't have to put as much resources into it.
So the operational costs be very low. Of course, you’re so so limited by seasons. So there's
different challenges. Some algae can grow through the winter, I actually was able to culture part
of my research. His analogy was, we were growing the culture through the winter. And then we
sampled in the spring to see if any of the algae that we had seen it with because we see it with a
microscope the biofilm. See if it was still stuck on the rocks, basically. So they scrape the rocks
in the spring, after the Rochester winter, which is absolutely awful. And they were there, were
still there. So they did survive frozen, we didn't, we did use them just to be safe. Make sure we
had enough culture. But you can find colorist and strings. But again, you have to you're going to
see a different production in the winter no matter what. So you become seasonal limited than so
you can heat the pond. But that's another resource thing you have to account for. I know there's a
push for solar, which I mean, it's a nice idea. But realistically speaking, it costs a lot of money to
heat up pond, you need any water has a very high specific heat see me a lot of energy input into
the pond in order to actually keep it at a high production temperature through winter conditions
here we find the cold air. So I'm not sure I want to keep telling you that like yeah, there's
multiple problems on every side. But there is that there's out to our production is probably the
most practical. But it does have its problems too.

AA
So in terms of like uniformity, what about using like genetic engineering in order to make the
algae strange, more uniform?

DD
So I don't know that much of that fashion. I should have brought the other grad student cuz he
does actually a lot of genetics work. I'm not too familiar with any work that's going on right now.
Have you found a paper that they that's probably fairly nice? I haven't heard much about it.
Theoretically, though, yeah, if you could, I mean, there is efforts to slowly selective breeding, so
not like, you know, direction magnification, but selective breeding for higher let the content in
the cells. That is definitely I think that's going on. You should find some papers on that pretty
easily. But yeah, it seems like it'd be a promising thing. I'm just not too familiar with it
Ahmed Abdellah
Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin
personally.

AA
So what type o of funding in the realm of environmental science and this research would be most
beneficial to those attempting to find this new clean energy.

DD
So the USDA funds a lot of this work. The department of energy actually funds a lot of work as
well, if you look into I forget what university was, I think it was Duke. They're involved with a
big
department of energy project right now, to look at algae culturing for not just for bio, so for all
sorts of things actually have to visit alive day at that. I mean, they've got these massive systems,
they're running them outside. To get USDA thermal energy, you also get some private
contractors investing. And I know, the company that we're the funded by research is a master's
student, and versus _____, new technology. They were a actually a pond management company
that they were basically a fish farm. And they were interested in growing the algae to improve
the water quality for their clients ponds. So that because I mean disgusting fish. They were trying
to basically incorporate a remediation technology that just happened to produce the algae and
sort of like a side effect. So I mean, you can find funding from all sorts of different places.
Nonprofits sometimes have stuff or the NSF is always a good source for any type of stuff. But
specifically about for biofuels, I'd say department of energy and USDA. Yeah, the big ones.

AA
So you personally, what is your vision for your research at like, where do you see your research
within the next 5 to 10 years.

DD
So my research, my current project is still kind of percolating, I was still doing data collection
data analysis. This is actually the third year of the project, I inherited it from another PHD
student who graduated. And basically, what they're trying to do is they're trying to better
incorporate the technology that we're working with now for growing reality, which is called an
80. s are able to recover runway system, it's it's literally like a 60 meter long road effectively, that
you just run water over. And they're trying to better incorporate that with the biofuels technology
basically. So I'm not sure where it's going at the moment. Our data last season wasn't very good,
unfortunately. Because what, speaking of seasonal problems, we had massive amounts of rain,
and actually lowered the salinity of our intake system, we were working with a salient system, it
was actually an import of Baltimore. So it's a little bit salty. But with the volume of rain that we
got last year, actually lowered the sleepy to the point that the algae that we were expecting to
Ahmed Abdellah
Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin
grow, didn't actually grow, because so we ended up getting more freshwater species. But our
system wasn't anticipating that. So we got lower production of our biofuels. So we're actually in
the process now of trying to do another season data collection to try and get better, basically. But
also, because there was some promising data from the data, the research that we got, and that was
that the algae that we were growing, it produced biogas with a very low hydrogen sulfide
content, which is really good if you're making biogas because hydrogen sulfide, it's very
poisonous, and it's very corrosive. So pipes that are hearing it will corrode very quickly over
time. So if you want to use biogas from an interview digestion system, like a traditional one
from, say, a dairy industry, you have to incorporate a secondary post processing treatment of the
biogas to remove the hydrogen sulfide. And that costs money and resources. But our algae for
some reason, through the entire 13 weeks study period, I hydrant slope eye level for below five
parts per million, which compared to a dairy digester, where you typically see something like
5000 parts per million or more. It was very good science. So we're thinking now that algae
specifically has the potential to create a very high quality product, so maybe not in volumes that
could compete with say, I don't know, dairy digester. But the part of that you get might actually
be cheaper in the long run, because it's easy to make the feedstock, which is just the algae. That's
easy morality, the doubling time analogy is very fast. And you don't have to do much with the
gas, once you produce, it's pretty much good to go and run through a burner as is so. So
hopefully, if this project goes well, we're going to explore ways that we can, we're going to
explore more of the quality end of the bio gas rather than the quantity end. And maybe
eventually from there, we could scale it up just because I know right now we're just working
with 1700 liters systems, I believe. Yeah, to 1700 liters systems and one 500 a year system. So
we're using a lot of biogas, I think we made got like 4000 leaders last season, or sounds like a lot,
but it's not compared to the previous years, the system and running. So yeah, I guess the long and
short of it is it still needs work. Before we can make any definite conclusion about where we
want the project to go. But there have been efforts to market I don't know if you saw the recent
video that the University of Maryland put out. It's like a 32nd clip they they do them for every all
sorts of people's research. And they recently did one on our interview digesters of the algae. So
there's a lot of I don't wanna say hype, but there's a lot of hype about it right now. So I, I'm not
exactly sure where it's going. But there's promise for at the moment, maybe like six months, we'll
have a better idea specifically where it's going. But yeah,

AA
What do you think of like the progress of algae being commercialized and companies that are
manufacturing these biofuels and selling them?

DD
So I don't know that much about companies are doing commercial. Okay. I know a lot of
Ahmed Abdellah
Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin
companies are doing research on commercial production of algae provide feels, I don't know of
many that are actually at the stage where they can ship it as a product. Because again, that the
cost due to the resource input is still not competitive with traditional biofuels was at large scales,
basically. 1I think that needs a lot more research. I know there's a lot of work to incorporate it.
And that's why they're trying to incorporate it with other things like I know, I think in Ireland,
they're actually researching ways to take algae as a byproduct from the food algae, basically, I
mean, there are personality series for food. After the you've extracted the Carconages or
whatever compounds, you can get out of it, taking what's left, and then using it for other stuff for
various hub spots for production. So that's a big area of research right now is incorporating it into
other commercial processes to lower costs. So there's a lot of potential there. Yeah, I guess my,
my opinion on Is it still needs work. Research

AA
Have you looked at Manta in frederick?

DD
I'm not familiar with them personally no.

AA
So how, like, I was looking at something like the economics. And I was just wondering, like,
where do they get their, like profits and how are like they profitable along with, like, their ability
to still be up running because I was talking to some other professionals, there's talking to me
about how a lot of these companies go, like, they sink down really, really fast. And they're like,
well, we're going to keep tabs on this one and see what they're doing differently. And possibly,
like how they're still in? I guess, not bad shape.

DD
I see. Okay, so yeah, they're making like a, like an oil substitutes from the algae. just from
looking at their ponds are very appreciative. Of course, they don't have much about their science
on here. But they're growing very large ponds just for the look of it. Oh, they're using magnets,
that makes sense. Algae is typically very high in iron compared to a lot of other junk, so you can
actually pull it out. I have heard about them doing magnetic work before not this company
specifically, but I have read about it. And samples that I've tested from our system came back
extremely high for iron, like, I think it was like over over 1000 parts per million of iron. So that's
actually a good idea to because iron magnets doesn't doesn't cost that much to extract overnight.
That's actually really smart. They're probably working on grants to or tax breaks, typically that
there's, I don't know, if you've gone into the the deep rabbit hole that is tax breaks for fossil fuels
over Yeah, it's a, those can help a lot in the research stage. Because the idea is basically use that
Ahmed Abdellah
Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin
to subsidize your research until you get to the point where you don't need to subsidize it. So until
you get to the point where you can scale it up without too many problems. So they might have
some arrangement like that. I don't know if you've contacted them directly, but. They're keeping
it secret. They don’t want some weird PHD student from University of Maryland stealing all the
research. Hahaha

AA
Haha. I was looking a lot at the possible fungus, fungus, and how that can be used like along
with like, yeast.

DD
Well fungus are really good at that. I haven't done much fungus work. But well, I forgot what it's
called. But like the yeast, they're just like blackness strains. Again, I don't know much about
fungus. Or fungi rather, I do know that they are slow to grow. I don't know about all of them. But
generally speaking, the growth of funders is smaller. One of the things I algae is, yeah, it's a
we're completely eukaryotic, eukaryotic cell. But it's a very simple you carry out itself, like basic
algae are actually very similar to bacteria in terms of their structure. So you can have a novel
culture that depending on the species, you can double the biomass in the span of like anywhere
from one to four days, which is ridiculous. Mushroom, not mushrooms, fungi in general, broadly
speaking, are lots more slow growing, so I don't use that would probably be a good thing to look
into would be the doubling time of these compared to say a chlorella culture. Yeah, that would
be interesting, though. They could because it's pretty easy to grow fonder (inaudible), they don't
need that much fulfilling the species, but mean, they could stay composed for one for every year
now. But that would be a question to ask a fungi is for sure.

AA
So in terms of the economic side of this, um, what what's, what type of inputs to usually like put
in in terms of like the capital cost. And so for growing the algae or doing the job in addition

DD
Growing algae, the only things you need are light, water, and nutrients, it can be harder than it
sounds, because water takes up a lot of volume, especially if you're growing splendid cells. Oh,
actually, if you're going to send suspended cells, you also need electricity to provide bubbling to
the system, I mean, in the lab, we can just use an air that you've used in an aquarium. But for big
system, you need a lot of energy can put just to maintain that movement to keep them because if
they settle, then there, they basically blocky themselves from the light source is probably above
it causes all sorts of problems. So you got an electrical input, light, also follow the electrical
input if you're not growing them outside. Again, there's a big push to grow them with solar but
Ahmed Abdellah
Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin
solar technologies and cheap either, so that that's a high upfront capital costs a lot of continuing
capital costs. But that could be a problem. There's also space and volume requirements. I mean,
you don't really think about it, water is ridiculously heavy, one gallon of water ways. Everything
one liter of water weighs--one kilogram is two and a half pounds, which means that one gallon
way is about nine pounds. scale up from there. Making large aquariums is very expensive,
because you need to have another physicist or an engineer, but you need to build it so that it can
handle the pressure of the water pushing against the sides. And typically you need specialized
class sets a customer on the glass customer order on the engineer to build it for you. At least a
very high investment costs. Once you get everything set up, though, assuming that you were able
to find a way to light them. If you found a way to hold them in one area, and provide them the
electrical inputs they need. Nutrients is easy. Nutrients is ridiculously easy. So usually, you can
just check a bunch of water, we were professional, you add a nutrient solution culture into the
system and they'll just go to town, you do need to continuously supply nutrients to them. So like
you're thinking of doing a wastewater that's that's a good idea. That's actually what the lab I used
to work at did a lot of they grew them on. Everything from sewage to cow manure. And algae
actually, as it grows, actually made this growth solution more basic. So it's kind of two birds
with one stone, you clean up the nutrients and erase the pH to levels that safely discharge the
water you can't just start acid waste into the sewer or you will be yelled at by the people
downstream. Yeah, probably the water media is the least difficult part of it. Because I mean, it's
very easy to grow. It's just a matter of getting it in a system that can support it. But I think that's
the biggest input. And the the part that takes the most planning usually. That's why there's way
there's a lot of research going into different ways to grow, that doesn't take up that volume, like
my particular research for who have biofilms sort of you know anything about via phone. So
basically, if you let the global sales settle some species on all of them, will actually start to
secrete basically a mucus. And they'll actually kind of connect themselves together. So almost
like a coral system. And they'll still photosynthesize, but they'll be fixed in place on to wherever
they settled on. And if you can get them to grow in that way, it's nice because you don't have to
read it. I mean, you do and or just like maintain, you don't have to go in opposite or anything,
you get nasty stuff ground in there. But you get, you don't need to include as much bubbling. The
light source can be fixed in one spot overhead, because you just got one layer for that are
receiving all of the input. You don't put lights all around the chamber. And like I know some I've
seen bench top ones that actually have like a column of lights and the algae growth in the middle
of it. So you don't do anything silly like that. You. Yeah, those are the big ones. That the
nutrients, the light, and the space.

AA
So do you think possibly be like, as the years go on, as solar costs decrease, which they've been
like doing over the past few years, you can incorporate that?
Ahmed Abdellah
Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin

DD
Almost certainly, yeah, it's just a matter of engineering. Because I mean, you would need to
make a specialized facility for it effectively, and the spaces that are free. So you have to
convince somebody to let you do it on my property. Sometimes you do get investors who will be
like, Sure, go to town, do whatever you want. But it's tough to get funding for that kind of a
thing. So if you that comes at mark, that comes back to marketing. So that is definitely part of the
equation is getting people to look at this and say, Look, the technologies improved, the input
costs have gone down. It is feasible, it has potential, getting people on board with it.

AA
So as kind of like, speaking like, if it requires so much volume, how do you think like, in
practicality terms, implemented across like an entire country you are implementing across like
the world? How do you think that'd be like feasible in terms of space?

DD
If I knew the answer that I'd be making a lot of money, because that's actually where the big
questions now for research is, how do we get to that point. So there's tons of lab scale stuff going
on right now have a ton of things that will be easy to scale up. And I'm not sure how much has
been published. But I know a lot of algae last month when I used to work at the we just kind of
play with different ways to grow it on the lab bench and eventually scale it up. But then it comes
to what you say, is applicability. Because not everybody can be suitable for this, that's the big
thing with any type of renewable energy. mean, you can't install solar energy in London, it's not
going to work very well. If you don't have somewhere to grow, you don't have a good enough
water source to grow this algae, you're gonna be able to do it, you need a water source here by a
lot of lives to do it. Either have our attention on the rise for these keys at my old lab we just had
our attention upon that was just our retention pond. And you would use that as a source for
water. And I mean, that's not really considered here on the east coast. But in California, I mean,
they're gonna look at this technology and say, well, it's a great idea. But it'd be prohibitively
expensive is because of the definitions here, we don't have the resources here to put into the
system compared because that they're going to put their money into saying it's more feasible for
them. And the thing, personally, I think, say 20 years from now, you're not going to have one
type of renewable energy is going to be applicable everywhere. There's not going to be like, solar
everywhere, it's gonna be a patchwork of what works best in each area. And I think the better the
bigger challenge would be just speaking from electrical terms, would be unifying the grid that
they all feed into. Because that would equal as everything right, because you've got multiple
different sources, but it all ends up as the same product.
Ahmed Abdellah
Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin
AA
Yeah I was kind of thinking like, let's say look at Tesla producing their electric cars, let's say
why company produce like, biodiesel using fungus in one, we're using algae, like how would that
work, because you know, one would want to buy a car that just I've worked with one type of, of
energy sources and limited

DD
Exactly. And that is a big problem. Because depending on where you get this needs to be both
processed differently. I know in California, there's a push, going to biogas, specifically, there's a
push to be able to put biogas as is into the natural gas pipelines. So you know, like how, right
now we mix ethanol in with gasoline. So it's mostly a non renewable source, but with a small
proportion of renewable sources sort of take baby steps towards fixing the problem, California is
actually pushing towards that as well. But for biogas. So basically, the idea is you have the
natural gas pipelines as normal, but you'd be replacing a portion of what's being used with a bio
gas. But then the problem becomes hydrogen sulfide content, which has to be below a certain
point because natural, natural natural gas doesn't have hydrogen sulfide in it, that's a byproduct
specifically of interpretation. It just happens to be something up that micros put out. So but if
you were to get, say, a biogas from another source, I can't get out of my head, but that might not
have that. So that would be another type of post processing. And then but those post processing
all incorporate into the final cost of the product. So then it becomes market demand that basically
you could say, Oh, my steeper and steeper means better quality is better quality. And then at that
point capitalism happens. So yeah, it on one hand, you do want unified production. On the other
hand, at that point, you just kind of end up with a monopoly until somebody find that and what
are some figures out a way to do it cheaper? Basically?So the you’re right, because there's
multiple companies trying to do this. And they all want to be the one that figures it out first,
because then they can make it cheapest. For a while, at least. So is a very complicated issue. But
do you have an oil and natural gas when you actually think about it? I don't know much you
know about oil extraction. But oil doesn't different characteristics, depending on where you get
up from is actually a mix of like thousands of different hydrocarbons. And that means different
post processing to so we've already done we've already found a way to unify those products from
that market. I think we could do it from renewable sources as well, it just takes time because it's
a less developed in history. And money. Of course, there's always money.

AA
So what do you kind of seem like going back to like, companies that are rising up? Like what do
you think is the number one reason that companies like clean energy companies tend to fail?

DD
Ahmed Abdellah
Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin
Money. So I haven't worked in the industry, personally, I've only ever worked in academia. And
it's a very different environment. Because in academia, you're supported by the university. So
like, your research fails, that's just science that happens. You just get funding and try different
perspective, when you're trying to answer to an investor, I mean, I answered your investors to be
able to fund my research, obviously. But when you're subject to market pressures, you have a lot
less wiggle room for failure. So when you do fail, it hits you hard That's why I know, if you look
into a lot of European countries, especially there, that's why they have such generous subsidies
for these things, to sort of keep those companies above the water until they get to the point where
they can support themselves. So typically, this so these are set to expire in a certain amount of
time. So I think the one it off the top of hands germinating, they're set to expire in 2016. I think I
don't know what happened since then. But because they have that time period, it was sort of the
idea. Let the companies develop, while being supported from the government until the point that
they don't need to be sort of helped them along a little bit. So you'll find typically higher rates of
company failure in areas that don't have that type of safety net effectively. I know in the US, at
least, not including California, California is very generous subsidies for those kinds of things. So
I don't know what I don't know what the success versus failure rate is there. But I wouldn't be
surprised to find out if the failure rate was a bit lower, because these companies have the time to
actually get to the point where they can become profitable. But that'll be something to definitely
look up. Yeah.

AA
So kind of going back to that, um, do you think like the, if there's like a uniform, like subsidies in
like throughout the country? Like how much? How much more beneficial? Would that be to the
Renewable Energy Research

DD
very much, very, very much. Because then you could just say, Here, take will take this money,
and do whatever works best for the system that you're working in, or the environmental
conditions that you're working with. As it is, again, you end up with a patchwork but not in the
good type of patchwork, putting a sign up before you end up with a patchwork of where
researchers more feasible in different parts of the country and I see the different personal
collaborate, like we're working with the lab, and I know right now, but we're trying to get started
working with them hasn't gone through official yet. But yeah, it would, it would grant a degree
of more. This is my opinion, but I think that it will grant a bit more uniformity to companies and
therefore a bit more comfort with investing because it wouldn't be as risky. Because with
business management, I've taken exactly one business class ever. So take this with a grain of salt,
the higher risk associated with the business, the less likely it is going to succeed. So if you had a
uniform cushion, in case something went wrong, it would probably help out a lot. Even if it was
Ahmed Abdellah
Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin
just like a short term thing a couple of years, that would certainly put us for quite a ways. I think
that there was some fairly recently like that. I think they expire in 2014. I think it's a bit hazy, but
I would look that up. The US has had some studies like that before. But I don't know if you have
any at the moment. I'm not sure if that my head.

AA
So do you know like Dr. Lansing has worked in like, has experienced and like the non academia
field?

DD
That's a good question. I know she worked for the Peace Corps I think was the Peace Corps for a
while latest Habitat for Humanity. I can't remember off top my head. It's probably on her bio
and the University website. But I don't think she's worked for any specific companies. She as she
does a lot of collaboration work with things like DC water, various local farms. There's a
company that we're working with now its environmental firm and texts. And so I think that funds
my research. So yeah, we collaborate with a lot of things, but more of the research typically
happens on the academia. And so yeah, but that'll be definitely a question that email or about or
check her but her bio, she has a very extensive by on the on the website. So,

AA
okay. Yeah, I think that's all I have. Okay,thank you so much.

DD
If you do think of anything later, feel free to email me. I'm sorry, if it was a bit rambling. still
dealing with this cough here. I hope it will help you out a little more.

AA
Okay, good. Good. I can keep you updated my paper process.

DD
Are you writing? So is it for like a, like, I know, sometimes the high schools will collaborate
with local colleges for some things with the community college or something?

AA
We have a course Howard and it’s independent research. And then there's internal mentor. So
with independent research, we each have our own, like, we usually do research and come up with
our own hypothesis. Like like what you're interested in
Ahmed Abdellah
Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin
DD
Is it tested or is it all theoretical?

AA
It depends but in my case it’s theoretical. But it has to be applicable and you have to like have
like a solid foundation and will make research on it. Okay. And from there, like if we want to we
carry on through the course with an internship that relates to our research. Okay.

DD
Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Cool. Which places have you been thinking about interning?

AA
I'm not really sure I’m trying to get to like a university like doing here, Hopkins, or kind of like a
company trying to get into like Manta.

DD
are you a senior then?

AA
I’m a sophomore.

DD
I Would definitely look into. I know sometimes the university does take on high school students
to work in labs and things. So definitely look into that. Because the opposite I don't know how
many opportunities in there are, but it would, it could be there. definitely look into that. And
Manta in frederick, but that’s a bit far off. Yeah, that's awesome. I hope you find a good place.
Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

AA
Thank you so much. Yeah, no problem.

I conducted an interview with a PHD student at the Environmental Science department at the
University of Maryland. Her name is Danielle Delp and she recently began projects in the algae
field of sustainable energies. She is very knowledgeable on the sustainable energy field and is
familiar with the structures of companies working on microalgal biofuels. She thoroughly
explains what goes wrong with these systems and why microalgae is not currently a feasible
replacement for fossil fuels. The interview was much different than previous ones for she spoke
much more frequently and less conversationally. This made me adjust when I should respond
Ahmed Abdellah
Independent Research GT
5 May 2019
Ms. Curtin
and ask follow up questions. I think this interview taught me how to be more patient when the
interviewee talks for a long time and how to draft follow up questions during that time.