!van Houten - 2c W13378 - 2c 2017-09-06

SUBSEQUENT PAROLE CONSIDERATION HEARING
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
BOARD OF PAROLE HEARINGS
In the matter of the Life ) CDC Number: W-13378

Term Parole Consideration )
Hearing of: )
)
LESLIE VAN HOUTEN )
)
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTION FOR WOMEN
CORONA, CALIFORNIA
SEPTEMBER 6, 2017
08:55 A.M.
PANEL PRESENT:
BRIAN ROBERTS, Presiding Commissioner

DALE POMERANTZ , Deputy Commissioner
OTHERS PRESENT:
LESLIE VAN HOUTEN, Inmate

RICH PFEIFFER, Attorney for Inmate
DONNA LEBOWITZ , Deputy District Attorney
BARBARA WOLFF, Head Deputy District Attorney, LA County,
Parole Division
LOUIS SMALDINO, Nephew of Victims
DEBRA TATE, Representative to Lou Smaldino
TONY LAMONTAGNE, Oldest Grandson of Victims
ANTHONY DIMARIA, LaBianca Family Representative for Lou
Smaldino
LETICIA TREJO, Victims Advocate
ROSIE THOMAS, California Institution for Women, Public
Information Officer
JOHN ROGERS, Reporter for the Associated Press
STAN LIM, Photographer for the Associated Press
CORRECTIONAL OFFICER, Unidentified
CORRECTIONS TO THE DECISION HAVE BEEN MADE

No See Review of Hearing
Yes Transcript Memorandum
DEBRA S. BEHUNIAK, Transcriber, DE

2
I N D E X
Page
Proceedings............. ............................ 3
Case Factors.......... .............................. 116
Pre-Commitment Factors.............................. 43
Post-Commitment Factors............................. 177
Parole Plans.......... .............................. 188
Closing Statements.... .............................. 226
Recess............................... ...........158, 275
Decision.............. .............................. 276
Adjournment........... .............................. 310
Transcript Certificati on............................ 311
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: On the record.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Good morning,
4 everyone. This is a Subsequent Parole Suitability
5 Hearing for Leslie Van Houten, V -A-N H-O-U-T-E-N,
6 California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation
7 Number W-13378. Today’s date is Se ptember the 6th, 2015
8 -- 2017. The time is approximately, uh, 8:55 a.m.
9 We’re located at the California Institution for Women,
10 and that’s in Corona, California. Miss Van Houten was
11 received by the California Department of Corrections and
12 Rehabilitation from the County of Los Angeles, and it
13 was under their Case Number A253156. It was for the
14 offense of Penal Code Section 187, murder in the first
15 degree. She was also convicted of Penal Code Section
16 182-187, which is conspiracy to commit first-degree
17 murder. She was sentenced to two seven -to-life terms to
18 run concurrent. She has a minimum eligible parole date
19 of August the 17th, 1978. She is a qualified youthful
20 offender pursuant to 3051 of the Penal Code, uh, changed
21 by SB261. She was 19, almost 20 y ears old at the time
22 of the Life Crime. Her youthful offender date is April
23 the 14th, 1989. Uh, she also qualifies as a elderly
24 parole candidate pursuant to the three -judge panel, uh,
25 and she was so qualified on August the 23 rd, 2009. The
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1 life term star ted back on August 17, 1978. The victims
2 in this case were Rosemary LaBianca, spelling L -A-B-I-A-
3 N-C-A, and her husband, Leno, L -E-N-O A. LaBianca. Now,
4 the hearing’s being recorded, so for the purpose of
5 voice identification, we’re going to go around th e room,
6 identify ourselves. To do that, we’ll state our full
7 name, spelling our last. We’ll start with myself, go to
8 the Deputy Commissioner, then we’ll come back to you,
9 Miss Van Houten. We’ll go down that side of the table.
10 Then what we’ll do is we’l l ask each of the, uh, family
11 members or the representatives of the family to step up,
12 state their full name on the Deputy District Attorney’s
13 microphone there, and, uh, your -- either your relation
14 to the victim or your reason for being here. If you’re
15 a representative, who you’re a representative for. Uh,
16 and then we’ll go around -- ac -- all of our -- and can
17 we come down? We’ll get -- uh, finish up there with the
18 press personnel who are here present. The officer
19 doesn’t need to put his name on the r ecord. I’ll take
20 care of it. Okay. All right. So let’s get started
21 with myself. Good morning, everyone. I’m Brian
22 Roberts, R-O-B-E-R-T-S. I’m a Commissioner with the
23 Board of Parole Hearings.
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Dale Pomerantz,
25 P-O-M-E-R-A-N-T-Z, Deputy Commissioner.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Miss Van Houten?
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, Inmate Van Houten,
3 capital V-A-N, capital H -O-U-T-E-N, Leslie, L-E-S-L-I-E.
4 W-13378.
5 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Rich Pfeiffer, P-F-E-I-F-F-E-
6 R, Miss Van Houten’s attorney.
7 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Donna
8 Lebowitz, L-E-B-O-W-I-T-Z, Deputy District Attorney, Los
9 Angeles County.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Uh, that way.
11 Right over there. Step up.
12 HEAD DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY WOLFF : Barbara
13 Wolff, W-O-L-F-F, Head Deputy District Attorney, LA
14 County, in the Parole Division.
15 MR. SMALDINO : Louis Smaldino, S -M-A-L-D-I-N-O,
16 uh, nephew of Leno and, uh, Rosemary LaBianca.
17 MS. TATE: Debra Tate, T -A-T-E, representative to
18 the LaBianca family.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: W -- uh, well,
20 let’s hold on, hold on, hold on. Back up. Wh -- whi --
21 which one are you identified as their representative?
22 MS. TATE: Leno --
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Leno.
24 MS. TATE: -- LaBianca.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIO NER ROBERTS: Okay. I just
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1 need one.
2 MS. TATE: So I’m yours?
3 MR. SMALDINO: Yes.
4 MS. TATE: Oh, I -- I’m -- I’m sorry. I’m sorry.
5 That would be Lou Smaldino.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Thank
7 you. Just wanted to clarify that cause I’m inte n --
8 anticipating -- thank you, sir. I’m sorry.
9 UNKNOWN VOICE: Good timing for a motion.
10 MR. LAMONTAGNE : Um, first name is Tony, last
11 name LaMontagne, L -A-M-O-N-T-A-G-N-E, oldest grandson of
12 Leno and Rosemary LaBianca.
13 MR. DIMARIA: Uh, Anthony DiMari a. Uh, LaBianca
14 family representative for Lou Smaldino. D -I, capital M-
15 A-R-I-A.
16 MS. TREJO: Leticia Trejo, L -E-T-I-C-I-A, Trejo,
17 T-R-E-J-O, victims advocate.
18 CORRECTIONAL LIEUTENANT THOMAS: Correctional
19 Lieutenant Rosie Thomas, T -H-O-M-A-S, C -- California
20 Institution for Women, Public Information Officer.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You need to step
22 up to the mike, cause we’ve go t this air conditioner
23 going here, and we’re trying to keep it somewhat cool in
24 here.
25 MR. ROGERS: Hi. Uh, John Rogers, uh, reporter
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1 for the Associated Press.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Spell your last
3 name, please.
4 MR. ROGERS: R-O-G-E-R-S.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Thank you, sir.
6 MR. LIM: Stan Lim, uh, representing the
7 Associated Press as a photographe r, and last name’s L -I-
8 M.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Good? Okay.
10 And for the record, we one -- have one security staff
11 present. The officer’s here for security purposes only
12 and will not be participating in the hearing. Let’s
13 take a quick look at any needs for assistance that you
14 might have. I’ve reviewed a couple of things. First,
15 your BPT 1073, which is a document created by your
16 correctional counselor Clarence Hogan. That was created
17 on August the 2nd, n -- 2017. That document indicates
18 that you need glasses, and you’re wearing your glasses.
19 And you need crutches . I saw you had crutches this
20 morning. I’ve also reviewed the Disability in Effective
21 Communication System File. Now, that’s in the computer
22 here. Tells me a little bit more abo ut you. Tells me
23 that you have a placement score of 19, custody level
24 Medium A, you’re housed in the general population. Also
25 tells me that you have normal cognitive functioning, and
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1 that was determined, uh, at least most recently in 2016.
2 A TABE score of 12.9, and that was determined back in
3 2009. Indicates a need for crutches, eyeglasses, or a
4 wheelchair, and we’ve got the crutches today. Have you
5 ever used a wheelchair?
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Just to go the long distance
7 around the prison.
8 PRESIDING CO MMISSIONER ROBERTS: You didn’t need
9 one here today?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Also
12 indicates a work and vocational classification of A1A.
13 Indicates that you’ve been involved in the Victim
14 Offender Education Group sin ce at least August of 2017.
15 Also been involved in Actors Gang since at least August
16 of 2017. And then also a Chaffey College tutor, and
17 that’s since at least November of 2016. I see at least
18 since -- they update that, so --
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- at -- what
21 they’re trying to show us is that you’re active and
22 involved in things. All right. Does that all sound
23 about correct, ma’am?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. So
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1 let me ask y ou this. Can you hear me okay?
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (inaudible)
4 crutches. Were you able to get here to the hearing
5 okay?
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. You
8 got your glasses, fine reading score. Were you able to
9 read and understand the documents for today’s hearing?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes, I was.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Are you now or
12 have you ever been a participant in the CCCMS or mental
13 health delivery system here in the prison?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. I have not.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Have you ever
16 been treated for a psychiatric illness?
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Are there any
19 medical issues that we need to know about so that we can
20 accommodate you today?
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Well, for
23 the record, there is. We have your leg, and we have a
24 chair there for you to put your leg up on.
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right.
4 Anything else?
7 Counsel, I do not see any ADA reasons that would
8 preclude us from pro ceeding. Do you concur?
9 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: I concur.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. With
11 regard to your hearing rights, the document on the BPH
12 1002 Form, and you signed that document most recently on
13 April the 4th, 2017. This is your Subs equent 20th
14 Hearing. Uh, it’s -- the -- changed over the years, but
15 not much and certainly not much in the last several
16 years. Um, and you signed that document with your
17 Correctional Counselor Sanchez, so having that in mind,
18 are there any issues with yo ur rights today, ma’am?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No, there are not.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Counsel, are
21 your client’s rights met thus far?
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. All
24 right. Just -- I know it’s been -- what? About 16, 18
25 months since the last hearing. Mm, I’d like to put on
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1 the record what we’re here to do. Uh, the purpose of
2 today’s hearing is to determine your suitability for
3 parole. We’ll be considering your past criminal and
4 social history. We’ll be considering the Life Crimes,
5 and we’ll be considering your progress and performance
6 since you’ve come to prison. Two other issues that
7 haven’t changed since the last hearing. You qualify as
8 a youthful offender, so -- so we’ll be considering the
9 diminished culpability of juveniles compared to adults,
10 the hallmark features of youth, and any subsequent
11 growth and maturity of you. Additionally, as was with
12 the case of the last hearing, you qualify as an elderly
13 parole candidate. Uh, and that’s all direct ed by the
14 three-judge panel. So we’ll be considering today, like
15 the last Panel did, your, uh, advanced age, your length
16 of confinement, and physical limitations and how they
17 would either mitigate or aggravate your, uh, future risk
18 for violence. So all t hose we take into consideration.
19 Now, that -- none of that’s new since the last hearing.
20 Th -- you qualified for all this in the last hearing.
21 Having said all that, nothing that happens here today is
22 going to change the findings of the court. We hold t he
23 findings of the court to be true. We’re not here today
24 to retry that case. We want to understand it, but we’re
25 not here to retry it. Shortly, I’ll be swearing you in,
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1 and we’ll expect that everything you tell us is
2 truthful, honest, and forthright. As bad as it was, as
3 bad as it is, I encourage you to be truthful, honest,
4 and forthright. If not, liable to be a problem. Uh,
5 looking at the last hearing, ra -- reading the
6 transcripts of it, didn’t seem to be an issue at that
7 hearing, but I never know. So I just warn you about
8 that. We’ll be asking you questions today, and there’s
9 two things I like to say about questions. The first is
10 that we may ask you questions today that, um, are
11 unclear to you, and it can get confusing. If you don’t
12 understand what’s being asked of you, and it doesn’t
13 matter whether I’m asking it, the Deputy Commissioner,
14 perhaps your attorney, or you’ve been through these
15 before and the District Attorney may ask the Panel
16 questions which may result in you being asked questions,
17 and that in itself -- of itself can be confusing, don’t
18 be afraid to say -- I don’t understand the question.
19 Here’s -- here’s my take on all that. We’re looking for
20 certain information, and if you don’t understand what
21 we’re asking, you can’t help us ge t to the information ,
22 okay? So don’t be afraid to say -- I don’t understand
23 the question.
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Okay.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: We’ll work on it
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1 to get to where you understand what we’re looking for
2 and you can help us get there, ok ay?
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: The second thing
5 I like to ask or -- and talk about with questions is --
6 there’s another issue that happens from time to time
7 when we may ask you a question that you don’t have an
8 answer for. If that’s the tru -- the best answer -- I
9 don’t have an answer -- then that’s the answer you
10 should make. Um, we may want an answer, but if you
11 don’t have an answer, I don’t want you to make something
12 up that you think we want to hear, cause that gets
13 disastrous fairly quickly.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Um, so again, we
16 may want an answer, but if you don’t have one, then the
17 best answer is -- I don’t have an answer. Okay?
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROB ERTS: All right.
20 Good. Now, this Panel is going to come to a conclusion
21 today, and we’re either going to find you suitable for
22 parole or not. If we find you suitable for parole,
23 it’ll be much like the last hearing where they found you
24 suitable for parole, gave you special conditions of
25 parole, and the case went up to Sacramento for review.
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1 If we find you not suitable for parole, then we’ll tell
2 you why we find you not suitable for parole, and you had
3 a number of cases where that was the case, a number of
4 situations where that was the case. Um, and we’ll tell
5 you if we find you not suitable for parole what we find
6 you not suitable based on and how much time we think
7 it’s going to take to find you suitable for parole. I
8 don’t know what the outcome of th is hearing’s going to
9 be. I never know. Um, so I warn you both ways. All
10 right? Having said all of that, though, the Board has
11 120 days to for -- to formalize and finalize the
12 decision that we make today, Mr. Pomerantz and I. So
13 it’s not finalized til l Sacramento has their I’s on and
14 crosses the T’s, dots the I’s, and makes sure
15 everything’s done. If we find you suitable for parole
16 today, then on top of that, the case goes over to the
17 Governor’s office, which you well know, and the Governor
18 gets additional 30 days to look at your case and make
19 his own independent decision as to your suitability for
20 parole, which you know about because that’s exactly what
21 happened at the last hearing --
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- and -- and
24 the Governor’s reversal. You’ll be notified in writing
25 by whatever party, uh, has issues with your case, all
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1 right? So whether it’s the Board or whether it’s the
2 Governor. Do you have any questions about that?
5 You’ll leave here today with a short, written, proposed
6 decision as you have probably for a number of years.
7 Um, whether it’s suitable or not, you’ll leave her with
8 a wr -- a written decision, uh, and it’s just the
9 proposed decision. Again, it’s proposed because Board
10 has 120 days, Governor gets an additional 30 . All
11 right? Have any questions about any of that?
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No, I don’t.
14 let’s take a quick look at, u h, documents. Now, we’ve
15 all had the opportunity to review your Central File.
16 Did you do an Olsen Review?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes, I did.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. And
19 how s -- how long ago did you do the Olsen Review?
20 INMATE VAN HOU TEN: About a month and a half ago.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. May 24th.
22 Okay. Very good.
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh, long time ago then.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (inaudible) it?
25 All right then. So we all had the opportunity to review
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1 your Central File, those that can. All right. So,
2 Counsel, did you review the Central File?
3 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Yes.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: DA’s Office get
5 a copy and review the Central File?
6 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Commissioner
7 Roberts, I did, but the Central File which is 6,900 -plus
8 pages was not posted until yesterday, so I just want
9 that to be known.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. It, uh,
11 is much the same as it was last t -- I -- I had also a
12 problem with the Central Fil e. Um, and back for the
13 record. Probably it was reposted because I sent up a
14 note saying that I got two copies of -- of -- of, uh,
15 SOMS.
16 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Exactly.
18 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ : So did I.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So, uh, I told
20 them we needed that available, so -- all right. And it
21 was updated. All right then. There’s also, uh, been
22 something about receiving documents. I’ve been
23 receiving documents as late as yester day. Um, there’s
24 been letters, uh, mo -- uh, most recently the letters
25 coming in have been , uh, of opposition, but there has
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1 been also letters in support, so -- and it’s going to
2 continue to flow in not only on our website, but, uh, as
3 supported in. We h ave a 10-day packet here, um, which
4 is some letters that got scanned in yesterday. So let’s
5 talk about those other documents. Now, the Board went
6 into your Central File and they created a thing they
7 call the Master Packet. In your case, the Master Packe t
8 has 540 pages in it and was approved on June the 15 th,
9 2017. Counsel, did you get a copy of the Master Packet?
10 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Yes, I did.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Did you get a
12 copy?
13 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: I did, but
14 also, Mr. Pfeiffer has been providing me with documents
15 also over the weekend, which I’m sure you’ll get into as
16 well.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. All right
18 then. Then there is the -- what the call the Ma -- the
19 10-day packet. The 10 -day packet in your case has 158
20 pages in it. It was approved on -- looks like August
21 the 25th, 2017. It has classification chronos, the most
22 recent of which was 8/29/16, so almost a year ago. I --
23 I like those. They give me a snapshot of you, uh, for a
24 classification committee. Uh, it speak s to a -- a
25 number of things. So t hey’re very helpful for me to get
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1 a snapshot of what’s going on. There’s work
2 supervisors’ reports. The most recent one in here is
3 July 12th, 2017. Your work as a S haffey -- Chaffey
4 College tutor, uh, and all ones. I’m sure the Deputy
5 Commissioner will be talking about your work
6 performance. There’s a number of other work performance
7 reports, uh, by your supervisors. There’s a document,
8 uh, by Miss Tate. Uh, looks like it comes from the web
9 page, and there’s some pictures on it and asks, uh,
10 people to submit to the Board their -- their position.
11 That’s followed by a number of emails that have come in
12 on our website, and this document contains a number of
13 letters of support and it contains a num ber of letters
14 of, uh, nonsupport and opposition to your suitability
15 for parole. There is a copy of the Governor’s reversal
16 and his letter to you and to everyone about what his
17 position on your case was as a result of the last
18 hearing. There’s again a nu mber of informative chronos
19 in here. There’s laudatory chronos in here from staff
20 working in CIW. There’s a notice of date and time of
21 the hearing. There’s a Captain , uh, Monte -- Montez
22 wrote a laudatory chrono. There’s a memorandum from us,
23 meaning the Board, to you. It’s dated August the 10 th,
24 2017. Talks about confidential information. Uh, two
25 documents, uh, May, uh, 2013 and April 20 -- uh, 2010,
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1 and it says you were identified in these confidential
2 documents, but didn’t pertain to you doing any thing
3 particularly illegal or illicit behavior. So it’s
4 giving you notice of any more recent 2015s. Of course,
5 you have, I mean, a lengthy 810. A lot of that is,
6 like, victim and so forth information. Again, another
7 number of letters in support. Anoth er number of memos
8 and letters, uh, in opposition. Uh, uh. There’s the
9 1073 we talked about. More letters in support or
10 letters in opposition. I think there is -- trying to
11 get to -- there’s a letter from the Los Angeles Police
12 Department dated August the 11th, 2017. Talks about the
13 Life Crime and they oppose your parole. There’s a
14 document in here. It says Relapse Prevention Plan. Is
15 this document new for this hearing or is it --
16 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: She did a new one for this
17 hearing. Um, is -- do you have the one -- hold on.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: It says Van
19 Houten One. Page 1, 2. Okay. It’s two pages, and it’s
20 followed by a multipage statement of insight regarding
21 relationships. And then there’s one called -- that’s
22 one page -- and then there’s one called Crime Insight
23 Statement, and that’s a number of pages. Let’s see how
24 many. That appears to be --
25 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: That appears to be what I
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1 have as -- you know what -- it is just an abundance of
2 caution. This is the Relapse Prevention Plan that’s the
3 latest.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: It looks like
5 the one we have.
6 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Okay.
8 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: And then the rest of the
9 stuff is just what you described.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Now, are
11 these documents -- are new for this hearing?
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Then they
14 weren’t the same one used at the last hearing?
17 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: They were sim --
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: They’re similar.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. That’s
20 fine. That’s fine.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I just want to
23 sure that --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- I’m --
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2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- separating
3 out what --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- marked last
7 time and what’ s, uh, for us new today. Okay. All right
8 then. So there was those three documents. There’s
9 letters both in support and, uh, in opposition.
10 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Wait. That’s the -- that’s
11 the last one.
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: That’s the old one.
13 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Yeah. But -- okay.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: There’s also
15 some Parole Plan kind of things like, uh, A New Way of
16 Life Reentry Notice.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (inaudible). So
19 the Deputy Commissioner will be talking about that.
20 Okay. All right then. So did we get all of that?
21 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: There is a Roxie Rose
22 Transitional, um, H ome acceptance letter dated August
23 15th, 2017. I didn’t get it in the packet.
25 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Um, I -- I believe we -- we
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1 all got the August 11th Crossroads acceptance.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Yes, I think
3 that’s in there.
4 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Okay. Um, I submitted a, uh
5 -- two documents. One was, um, the intimate bat tered
6 partner investigation done by the BPH for Patricia
7 Krenwinkel where many of the people related to the
8 Manson family and members of it were interviewed,
9 including Miss Van Houten, and because it applie s to the
10 same set of facts, I -- I sent that in, and I haven’t
11 got that in the packet, but I brought a copy for
12 everybody, and I’m requesting that the Board use its own
13 investigation as it applie s to Miss Van Houten.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, it wasn’t
15 for her, but I -- I, you know -- I’m going -- I’m going
16 to be honest. I’m going to probably rely more on what
17 she has said about her relationship with Mr. Manson --
18 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: That -- that’s fine.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- um, and so
20 forth. Um --
21 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: I submitted also a, um,
22 psychological report that was prepared for a Franklin
23 hearing that was held last Thursday, um, and it was done
24 by Dr. Lawrence Steinberg, who was, um, the chief
25 psychologist who wrote the Amic us briefs for the Miller,
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23
1 Roper, and Graham case s at the US Supreme Court. Most
2 of it has to do with the science. He did not see Miss
3 Van Houten. I -- I understand your position when a
4 clinician does not in -- personally interview them, you
5 give it little weight. But I’d still like to m --
6 submit it for the record.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Quite frankly, I
8 think we’re well versed in the science of it. I can’t
9 tell you how many, uh, presentations the Board’s had on
10 the -- the s -- the study of the science of y -- of the
11 young brain, so, uh, I --
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- I’ll take a
14 look at those, but I think -- I think this Panel h as a
15 good understanding of that and have been well trained in
16 that. But --
17 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Uh, uh, Miss Van Houten did a
18 timeline of her entire life, and she reviewed and did an
19 introspection of what -- what got her here.
21 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: That was --
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: This is -- this
23 is new since the last hearing?
24 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: It’s updated.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. All
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24
1 right. And -- okay.
2 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: And -- and something at the
3 last hearing that we submitted was, um, just a -- a
4 recap of all the difference psych evals through all the
5 different years. It’s the same as last time.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Yeah. It’s
7 incorporated --
8 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Yeah.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- the last time
10 --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- and I think,
13 uh, the clinicians have made their position clear.
14 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: The -- the other thing that I
15 just -- well, at the Franklin hearing -- we had a
16 Franklin hearing on Thursday, and we anticipated that
17 the transcripts at that hearing would be used here, a nd
18 they’re not going to be. Um, which is fine.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And -- okay.
20 And -- and so -- okay. Okay. So, uh, I guess we’ll go
21 ahead and --
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- finish before
24 I --
25 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Okay. Um, what -- what I --
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25
1 what happened at the Franklin hearing is I was trying to
2 get the Tex Watson tapes. Um, when Tex was arrested in
3 Texas, um, he made some tapes about what had happened.
4 I -- I haven’t read the tapes. They haven’t been
5 released to me. Um, and I tried to get them from the
6 Supreme Court through a writ a few years ago, and I
7 failed. But in the Franklin hearing, um, the -- the
8 ruling on whether or not we get those tapes has not yet
9 been made. The judge is reviewing the t ranscripts of
10 those tapes. And I -- I feel that they’re probably the
11 most accurate description of what happened. Um, Tex was
12 in charge during the murders. Manson wasn’t there when
13 anybody was killed. Um, he made these tapes for his
14 attorney. They were protective of the attorney -client
15 privilege. And they were made prior to any public
16 disclosure of the facts of the case, so they weren’t
17 influenced by an outside source. I think they’re
18 important. I think we’re -- that those are going to get
19 released, and I would respectfully request that if they
20 are that the Governor be able to use those. Um, I think
21 they’re invaluable. Also at the Franklin hearing, um --
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I’ll say this.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I -- my
25 perception is the Governor makes his decision based on
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26
1 what was presented at the hearing and evidence before
2 the Panel and -- because he’s deciding whether or not he
3 agrees with the Panel or not. I don’t know that he
4 would (inaudible) take into consideration -- I’m just
5 warning you.
6 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Thank you.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I don’t know
8 that he would take into consideration information
9 provided outside the confines of this hearing.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I -- I’m not
12 seeing him do that. Um, what I have seen him do if
13 something comes up and he sends it back, he’ll send it
14 back for, like, a new hearing or something , but I’m not
15 seeing him decide on outside information that’s not
16 before the Panel ( inaudible).
17 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Yeah. I have it. It -- it’s
18 very rare that he -- but, um --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: In that respect,
20 I guess you’re just putting it on the record.
22 UNKNOWN VOICE: (inaudible).
23 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: The -- the other, um, thing I
24 put on at the Franklin hearing was testimony of
25 Catherine Share, one of the family members, who
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27
1 testified that she was not free to go and she was
2 threatened basically being tortured if she did try to
3 leave the family. Um, since then, one of the people who
4 attended the Franklin hearing is writing a book and did
5 some 1999, uh, interviews with Barbara Hoyt. Now, the
6 Governor relied I think heavily on Barbara Hoyt’s
7 statements that weren’t subject to cro ss examination,
8 that weren’t made under oath, and what I have is a -- a
9 transcript of a tape that describes -- and I -- I have
10 the -- the entire one, so it’s in context, and I have
11 highlighted sections of all the escape attempts that
12 Barbara Hoyt had to ma ke because she told the Governor,
13 and Governor relied on the fact that she would, you know
14 -- family members were free to come and go at any time -
15 -
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Mm-hmm.
17 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: -- and Miss Van Houten didn’t
18 go. Well, it -- it took a lot of effort for Barbara
19 Hoyt to finally go, and then she had to hide out at her
20 grandparents’ house cause she was afraid that, um,
21 Manson and his people would come get her. So I’d like
22 to at least submit this.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, you know,
24 to be honest, that was discussed at the last hearing,
25 and I think my reading of the transcript was that your
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28
1 client admitted people did come and go and that, um,
2 some -- some people up and disappeared in the night.
3 Um, and I think what’s more important in this case is if
4 -- why she didn’t go, and I think that’s what the
5 Governor wants to know.
6 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Okay. I -- but I don’t want
7 the Governor to be able to continue to rely on
8 statements that I don’t believe are credible by Barb ara
9 Hoyt, and so what I’m trying to do is show that her
10 statements should not be relied on, and my client is
11 going to testify under oath. The DA can ask her
12 questions. Barbara Hoyt did not. And I would just at
13 least like to lodge this.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, again, my
15 thought is your client in the last -- the last hearing
16 said people came and went, and some people got up and
17 left in the middle of the night.
18 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Right.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I don’t see that
20 to be the issue. I see more the issue of -- would be,
21 you know, why didn’t she get up and leave in the middle
22 of the night? That’s -- that what I would explore --
23 explore again, and the last Panel explored.
24 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Okay. Well, the -- the
25 Governor did rely on some other negative comments made
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29
1 by Hoyt, and -- and I don’t want him to rely on anything
2 she says. And -- and this just shows that what she says
3 is not consistent. A -- so I just want to lodge it, and
4 then I don’t care --
6 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: -- what weight you give it.
8 We’ll -- we’ll take those documents.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I don’t know
11 what weight we’re going to g ive them --
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- if any.
16 Counsel?
17 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Thank you.
18 Um, I would like to weigh in on the issue of the, uh,
19 intimate partner battering investigation for Patricia
20 Krenwinkel’s, uh, hearing. Uh, as the Commissioner
21 stated, as you stated, that investigation was done for
22 another inmate. Um, statements were pertaining to that
23 inmate. Even though this inm ate, Van Houten, did make
24 statements, uh, there’s no -- there’s been no
25 allegations of intimate partner battering with this
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30
1 inmate, Van Houten, and I think that it’s improper to
2 use a report done for another investigation for this
3 inmate.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: We’ll -- we’ll
5 accept your argument. I don’t know that we’re going to
6 use it at all, um, because of what she’s said in the
7 past, and I agree that it’s not an investigation of
8 hers, and she’s -- again, we’ll she what she has to say
9 today, but at the last hearing, she discussed how, uh,
10 she did have sex with Manson, but she talked about more
11 she was considered, uh, bodies. Uh, but nobody really
12 had ownership. She talked about that a lot last time.
13 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Right.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I think the last
15 Panel explored that well.
16 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Okay. And
17 then --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I don’t know if
19 we -- if we’re going to give that significant weight at
20 all cause I -- again, it doesn’t apply to her. I’ll let
21 him put it in the record, um, and we’ll take a look at
22 it, but again, uh, the relevance is to this inmate, uh,
23 and that relationship . I don’t know what weight, if
24 any, we’re going to give it. We’ll consider it. T ake a
25 look at it.
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31
2 then secondly, um, the transcript of the interview with
3 Barbara Hoyt. Number one, I -- I -- Mr. Pfeiffer did
4 tell me the origins of the transcript. There’s no
5 authentication. I have not been able to speak with Miss
6 Hoyt to determine what the interview was all about,
7 whether or not it’s accurate. And it also seems to
8 confuse the issue because there’s no context to the
9 times of the leaving. There were several different
10 timeframes of -- at the ranch, uh, and at -- at Spahn
11 Ranch and at Barker’s Ranch after the murders, and at
12 Myers Ranch, so it just seems to confuse the issue.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I don’t think
14 I’m confused, and I don’t think my partner is. Um, I’m
15 more going to rely upon her statements, uh, with regard
16 to those issues. I think she’s made statements clearly
17 in the -- at the last hearing about that, so again, I
18 will cons -- let him submit it, but I don’t know how
19 much weight if any we’re going to give to any o f that.
20 Okay?
21 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Okay.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: That sound fair?
23 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: That sounds
24 fair.
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32
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So he can get it
3 on the record, but -- and he says he just wants it
4 there, and what -- what weight we give it, if any --
5 again, I stress if any, uh, we’ll -- we’ll decide.
6 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: All right.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Is that it, sir?
8 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Uh, I -- I want to make a
9 record that I did make a formal discovery motion for the
10 Tex Watson tapes that was, um, the BPH responded saying
11 they don’t have authority to require the DA to give them
12 up. Um, I did a motion to disqualify the entire
13 District Attorney’s Office because they have access to
14 those tapes and I don’t, and it’s an unfair advantage.
15 Um, again, it’d be -- BPH denied that motion. I’m j ust
16 making a record that I -- I did do it. And I have a
17 pending motion, um, to enforce Penal Code Section 3043
18 regarding victims’ next of kins’ appearance at the
19 hearing, and I -- I don’t believe that everybody who rep
20 -- who’s representing himself as a victims’ next of kin
21 qualifies under the law , and I’m respectfully requesting
22 that the law be enforced. If they are representing
23 other family members who are legitimate, um, they have
24 to get that in writing ahead of time. I’ve got nothing
25 in writing ahead of time. I followed it up with Tiffany
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33
1 Schultz at the BPH. I’ve got nothing back from her in
2 the last few days.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. I’ll rule
4 on this.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Because I’ve
7 been kept abreast on this.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Um, all the
10 victims have been validated through Office of Victim
11 Rights Services, and so -- and the other people who are
12 not bled -- blood relatives of are representative s here,
13 so everybody that’s here today has been vette d through
14 the system, cleared, validated, and they will be allowed
15 to participate today. So we’ll overrule your objection.
16 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Did -- did they submit
17 written, um, statements of who they’re representing and
18 get the --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: That would be
20 done through Victim Services. Victim Services has
21 validated them, uh, so they -- they’ll be allowed to
22 participate and give their , uh, impact statements as it
23 were. We will overrule.
24 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Objection.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: It’s not a new
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34
1 objection. You made it last time.
2 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Now -- now I know. I’ll
3 continue to make it. I just don’t feel like they’re
4 following the law.
6 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: So --
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I -- I
8 understand your --
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- your sense of
11 it, sir.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Just telling you
14 that I’ve had a number of attorneys scrubbing this, and
15 they’re confident with it. All right then.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Anything else?
18 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: That’s it.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr.
20 Pfeiffer. Anything else you want to sa y?
21 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: No, thank
22 you, Commissioner.
24 then.
25 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: I -- I do
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35
1 want to say one thing. Is there any way we can turn
2 that air up?
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Um, I think --
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: It’s on as best
5 as it’s going to work.
6 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Okay.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Unfortunately.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Usually, we shut
9 it off because it’s noisy. All right. All right. So I
10 w -- I’ve -- I’ve settled documents for today.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Very
13 good. And we’ve taken care of objections, have we, Mr.
14 Pfeiffer?
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Will your
17 client be speaking to us today?
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right then.
20 Miss Van Houten, I need to swear you in. Would you
21 raise your right hand, ma’am? Do you solemnl y swear or
22 affirm your testimony at this hearing will be the truth,
23 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I do.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Very good. All
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36
1 right. With regard to your case, I see there is a jury,
2 uh, convicti on. There is an Appellate Court opinion,
3 uh, brief as it is, about your case. Comes out of the
4 Court of Appeals, Second Appellate District, Division 1.
5 It was filed under ( inaudible), Number 33752. It was
6 filed on December 15 th, 1980. The justices spe ak
7 briefly to what the facts of the case are and Roman
8 Number -- Number II -- it’s on Pages 3 through 4. Um,
9 it’s not new. This is old stuff. Um, there is I think
10 a fair summary of the crime, and it’s found in the most
11 recent Comprehensive Risk Assessme nt, and so let’s
12 briefly talk about that. Now, this Risk Assessment’s
13 not new. You all have seen that. It’s new to me, but,
14 uh, not new to you. It would appear that Dr. Croft came
15 out and see you -- not -- saw you here -- at CIW on
16 February the 2 nd, 2016. Recall that meeting?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes, I do.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: About how long
19 did you spend with Dr. Croft?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Couple hours.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Wrote a rep --
22 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Can I just say one thing?
23 It’s the same Risk Assessment we had at the last
24 hearing.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Yes.
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37
1 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: At the last hearing, Miss Van
2 Houten made two corrections to this.
4 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Um, one of them was on Page
5 4, the last full paragraph. Um --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: The one where
7 she informed --
8 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Wait. Hold on. Um --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I don’t think
10 that one.
11 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Um, Page 4 -- it -- the
12 middle paragraph. Um, uh, she indicated that, uh, she
13 was, uh, once allowed to leave, and she clarified that,
14 um, what had happened was she spent a couple of nights
15 with a biker named Sammy, and Manson kicked him off the
16 ranch, and then Sammy ca me back in a car with other
17 friends and tried to get Miss Van Houten and she felt
18 like she d -- she said her feet felt like they were in
19 dried cement and she couldn’t leave.
21 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Um, that’s a more accurate
22 description.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: A clarification
24 of that statement? I have it highlighted, and I will be
25 asking you why, so --
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38
1 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Okay. And on Page 7 of the
2 Risk Assessment, the first full paragraph, um, it said -
3 - the last sentence in that paragraph -- it says she
4 indicated she also used sub -- substances in the
5 community prior to her resentencing. There -- there was
6 a six-month period she was out on parole and working and
7 everything. The probation officer’s repo rt, um, Item H,
8 stated, “While she was out on bail, she was clean and
9 sober.” So it was just a mistake written by the
10 clinician.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So she
12 did not say -- one would be concerned that she said to
13 the clinician that she’ d used drugs when she was out on
14 bail.
15 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Correct.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Is that -- is
17 that true or false?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No, I didn’t.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You did -- you
20 didn’t.
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. No.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So did you
23 recall telling the clinician you did?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. I told her I didn’t.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: That’s a
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39
1 mistake.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. I have
4 that highlighted, too .
5 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Thank you.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: That’s it? All
7 right. All right. So where we were at -- we were
8 talking about this report, and you -- you read the
9 report, have you?
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Doctor,
12 uh, spoke about the Life Crime, and we’ll be talking
13 about that. The doctor gives us a synopsis of the Life
14 Crime, and so just as a brief, the doctor tells us --
15 this is brief. The doctor says that the Appellate
16 Court’s decision indicates that you participated with
17 other members of the Manson “family” in binding,
18 robbing, and stabbing to death Leno and Rosemary
19 LaBianca. Uh, Miss Van Houten was 13 days’ shy of her
20 20th birthday when she per -- uh, perpetrated the
21 offenses. Investigation determined that you were --
22 that Mrs. LaBianca was stabbed 12 times, uh, by you, uh,
23 and 42 times overall. I’m sorry -- 16 times by you.
24 Mr. LaBianca was stabbed 12 times. Mrs. LaBianca -- 42
25 times, 16 of which were yours. Uh, a nd that you cleaned
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40
1 fingerprints and destroyed evidence. Okay. Sound
2 fairly accurate as a short --
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- summary?
5 Okay. All right then. You will -- you’ll be talking
6 about the Life Crime, so you’l l be able to fill it in.
7 Now, last time -- I mean, last time -- last hearing, uh,
8 which was here at CIW, and that was, uh, on or about
9 April the 14 th, 2016. Um, Commissioner Zarrinnam and
10 Deputy Commissioner Lam -- remember that hearing?
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Got a transcript
13 of that hearing?
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You read that
16 transcript?
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Was it
19 accurate?
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: The transcript?
24 right. All right. You spoke of the Life Crime last
25 time, and it was on Pages 69 through 86. Did you tell
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41
1 the truth to the Commissioner?
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Was that an
4 accurate, uh, rendition of what you had to say during
5 the last hearing?
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Anything you’d
8 like to correct in that transcript?
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Well --
11 and sometimes, people don’t. I wanted to correct this.
12 Okay. All right. With regard to prior statements, uh,
13 probation officer’s report has a state ment in there.
14 You talked about that, uh, basically you didn’t kill
15 anybody, they -- you were -- but you were there when it
16 happened, and people just got murdered. Very, very, uh,
17 vague statement. You talked to Dr. Croft most recently,
18 and that was before the last hearing, and the doctor
19 says your version of the crime is -- and it states it on
20 Page 9. You’ve read the report. Did Dr. Croft
21 accurately report back what you had to say?
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m sorry. What?
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Dr. Croft. In
24 his report. Has an indented, huge paragraph. He says
25 this is what you told the doctor about the Life Crime.
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42
1 Was --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- it accurate?
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. There’s I think one,
5 um, inaccuracy where, um -- do you? Mr. should’ve been
6 Mrs. or something to that effect.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: It’s that
8 indented paragraph there?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. Um, I believe when it
10 says, um, when I heard Mrs. LaBianca dying, it shou ld be
11 when I heard Mr. LaBianca dying.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. Just
13 a typo it sounds like.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. All
16 right. We’ll be going over that. I just want to make
17 sure that wa s an accurate rendition. But with regard to
18 your prior social history, I don’t think we’re going to
19 go into every bit of it today. I think you had a good
20 discussion at last hearing. And you’re -- at the last
21 hearing, you talked about your life prior to the Life
22 Crime starting off at very young and leading all the way
23 up. Looks like the Commissioner started by going
24 through this Comprehensive Risk Assessment and pulling
25 facts out of that. And you discussed it on Pages 26
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43
1 through 49. Um, the -- in -- in essence, you talked
2 about your early childhood being idyllic. Uh, then at
3 14, started to change. Your father left. You -- you
4 talked about how you missed your father. You blamed
5 your mom. Uh, you started to get involved in drugs.
6 Uh, talked about th is other significant event at age 17.
7 You became pregnant, and, uh, your mother, uh, forced
8 you to have an abortion, and how that impacted you. You
9 also spoke of substance abuse, and that’s found on Pages
10 32 through 36, 41 through 45, um, and, uh, starts on
11 Page 47, few questions there. All right. So we’re
12 going to talk about that briefly, but I don’t intend to
13 go through that as heavily. Is there anything about
14 your prior social history that you want to correct for
15 the record that maybe wasn’t include d last time or was
16 incorrectly noted?
19 right. I think we can knock out your prior criminal
20 history rather quickly. Uh, it’s found in the probation
21 officer’s report and the Comprehensive R isk Assessment.
22 In the Comprehensive Risk Assessment, the doctor kind of
23 lines it out for us on Page 5. Speaks to several grand
24 theft autos and a burglary. Looks like most of these
25 things were dismissed, yet they all occurred between
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44
1 April of ’69 and October of 1969. So in a year, you
2 were involved in a lot of, uh, arrests.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Why was that?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: We were stealing dune buggies
6 in order to convert them and turn them into desert
7 vehicles for the revolution.
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And the burglary was a stolen
10 credit card, um, someone had, and we were buying large
11 quantities of things that we thought we would need in
12 the desert.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER RO BERTS: Okay. Were you
14 ever convicted of any of those?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No, I was -- I wasn’t
16 arraigned.
18 right. Did -- did you actually participate in those
19 illegal acts?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, by being there.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well --
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: By -- you know what I mean.
23 Like, being at the ranch. I didn’t actually steal one
24 of the --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You didn’t go
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45
1 out and steal cars.
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- dune buggies. Uh, no. I
3 was there one time when one was being hotwired.
5 right. So you were --
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And I was with the woman with
7 the credit card, but I didn’t sign the documents, so she
8 I think ended up doing a little bit of time for it, and
9 I didn’t.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So is it fair to
11 say you were engaging in criminal activity around that
12 time?
15 let’s speak to -- all of those seem to be, um,
16 nonviolent crimes. W -- were there any violent crimes
17 that, uh, you were engaged in other than of course the
18 Life Crimes?
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So no
21 robberies?
22 INMATE VAN HOU TEN: No.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. No
24 drug rip-offs?
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. How
2 about before all of this? Were you involved in any
3 criminal activity other than the consumption of illegal
4 drugs?
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. Drug
7 sales?
10 So what I would like you to do is -- and this is more as
11 a response to the Governor’s questions -- cause I think
12 you had a good discussion about your life before the
13 Life Crime and leading up to it at the last hearing.
14 But the Governor says -- let’s take a quick look at
15 that. The Governor says that -- on -- let me go to the
16 right screen. Have you read the Governor’s letter?
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. The --
19 the Governor kind of summarizes the concerns in the last
20 paragraph above conclusion and says -- it remains
21 unclear how and why Van Houten drastical ly transformed
22 from an exceptional, smart -- exceptionally smart,
23 driven, young woman, class secretary and homecoming
24 princess to a member of one of the most notorious cults
25 in history and an eager participant in the cold -blooded
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1 and gory murder of innocen t victims aimed to provoke an
2 all-out race war. Okay. So apparently from that
3 statement, the Governor is unclear as to why you did
4 this transformation. So I’d like you to give us, uh, a
5 su -- answer that question if you can. Can you answer
6 that questio n? How you went from being this idyllic
7 kind of a person to a monstrous kind of a person. Would
8 that be fair to say?
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So tell
11 us -- how did you -- what was it that got you there? If
12 you can summarize that. I know you’ve talked about it
13 in some of the written documents, but tell us today.
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, you know, I’ve had a lot
15 of, uh, therapy trying to answer that question for
16 myself, and through a series of events, I began to
17 change the group of people that I spent my time with.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Were those
19 (inaudible)?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: My social community. The
21 first was my dad leaving, and in the past, I feel that
22 it’s been represented like -- well, she’s sayi ng her dad
23 left, so she went and did all this stuff. But life
24 isn’t like that. When dad left, our status in the
25 community began to change. This was in 1964. And I
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1 became someone that lived in a single -parent household,
2 which in that community, had its own stigma. My dad
3 told me he was leaving before my mom knew, which caused
4 real friction between us. I was very close to him and,
5 um, resented her. So all of those are just events that
6 began to lead me to a different group of people in the
7 high school. And so I began to hang around the kids
8 that were smoking marijuana, and I looked for permanency
9 in a relationship with a young man. I was sexually
10 promiscuous. I ended up pregnant, and again, the event
11 happened and my mom was adamant that I get the abor tion.
12 It was illegal at the time. It was arranged through her
13 psychologist. Um, she was very -- mm, there were
14 alternatives that were presented that she made sure
15 would not happen. My father said that he would let my
16 boyfriend and I live with them, and mom said that that
17 was all a lie. So anyway, the abortion really left me
18 feeling, um, broken and brokenhearted. I went to a
19 ashram of a Self-Realization Fellowship because I was
20 still in the, um, hippie state of mind of finding an
21 alternative lifestyle.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (inaudible) a
23 little bit?
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you said --
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1 you said -- this kind of started out -- your family
2 starts to become dysfunctional, and then you said you
3 started hanging around with kids who had -- were using
4 marijuana. Why --
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And single parent and --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. But why
7 kids that are using marijuana? What -- what’s up with
8 that?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, they were the maj ority of
10 the kids that were single -parent households, and I
11 looked for an alternative lifestyle. I -- I felt that
12 my status had shifted and changed.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well,
14 (inaudible) clear on this. Was it -- the s -- the
15 status of those children -- what was it? Uh, your use
16 of marijuana that drew you towards them.
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I, um -- actually, I smoked
18 my first, um, marijuana cigarette -- my first joint in,
19 um, my own home. I -- my brother had been drying some
20 marijuana in the -- at home while mom was gone.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How old were
22 you?
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Fifteen.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Fifteen?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And he was, um, 18.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And what -- so
2 why did you do that? What was there -- the draw of the
3 marijuana?
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, originally curiosity of
5 it. Alternative lifestyle.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, okay.
7 What -- what’s that about? Alternative lifestyle
8 (inaudible)?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The, um -- seeing what was
10 going on with, uh -- kind of at that point, it was still
11 sort of the beatnik generation.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What was the
13 draw to that for you? There has to be something that
14 draws you to it, right?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The al -- the -- the --
16 something different. That -- something that probably I
17 felt was against my mom.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So you’re
19 talking about being rebellious.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. That
22 (inaudible) --
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Okay, yeah.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So --
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Definitely. Definitely
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1 rebellious.
3 Well, you talked about that in the past, so --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- I’m trying to
6 go through my mind --
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- and get this
9 overall (inaudible ) --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- together
12 here.
15 being rebellious was part of (inaudible ) your mom.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Was that
18 part of the draw towards marijuana?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m trying to remember that
20 day. I remember that day.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, you can
22 probably --
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And --
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- remember what
25 generally your state of mind was. We’re -- we’re at a
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1 point where family’s becoming dysfunctional, right?
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, I wanted to try it. I
3 wanted to see what was going on, and, um --
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Did you know
5 your mom wouldn’t approve of it?
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I knew she would not.
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And I promised my brother I’d
9 never do it again.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Well, was
11 he there and encouraging you or did you --
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. He --
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIO NER ROBERTS: -- sneak that
14 cigarette or what -- what -- how’d that pan out?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He -- he didn’t want to.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Well, did
17 he say no or did you already have a -- how did that
18 happen?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No, he said no, and I said if
20 you don’t let me, I’ll tell mom.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Oh, okay. You’d
22 tell mom he had marijuana if --
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- he didn’t let
25 you have one. Okay. All right. How m uch older was
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1 your brother than you?
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He was, um, four years older.
4 right. So are you saying he begrudgingly let you have a
5 marijuana cigarette?
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes, his friend encourage d
7 him to let me.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Oh, so there was
9 a friend there, too.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Oh, okay. His
12 friend. His friend?
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Male? Female?
15 Older than you?
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Older -- male.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Male? Older?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: His age. Yeah.
20 you had that one cigarette. Anything become attractive
21 as a result of consuming that one cigarette --
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- that you
24 recall?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. I -- I loved how I felt
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1 on it. I --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What did you
3 feel?
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, differen t inside. I
5 felt, um, more relaxed inside. And, um, I like d the,
6 um, bit of change in reality that it gave me.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So what
8 part of reality were you trying to change?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: What my life was at that
10 time.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How did it help
12 you do that?
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The, um, effects of smoking
14 marijuana.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, clearly,
16 what you were trying to change was -- that was supposed
17 to be helping you with this dysfunctional family setting
18 --
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Well, I don’t --
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (inaudible) --
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know if I was, uh,
22 trying to help the dysfunction so much as I was
23 contributing to it.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER R OBERTS: But what was it
25 -- it -- I know it’s been doing something for you with
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1 regard to that. What was that?
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. It was, um, uh -- it
3 made me feel complete.
5 right. (inaudible ). All right. We’ll try this. All
6 right. So you had that one marijuana cigarette. Then
7 that lead to more?
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh, yeah. Yeah, and that’s,
9 um, one of the reasons really on hindsight my first
10 reaction to the, uh, uh, joint really, um, let me know
11 over the years that I do have, uh, an addiction problem
12 and that I take it very seriously -- that I --
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Because I -- I wanted to know
15 where I could get more right away.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER RO BERTS: From your
17 brother and his friend?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. I knew -- I knew that
19 that was out of the question.
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: So I looked for kids at the
22 high school.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So that
24 was the motivation for you -- one of the motivations
25 looking for these other kids who had drugs. Okay. So
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1 got an idea. Start alcohol and marijuana cigarette.
2 What did it go to? Was it using marijuana regularly?
3 Was it occasionally? What -- what (inaudible)?
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: As -- as often as I could.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And how did you
6 afford that marijuana?
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, my friends had it and
8 shared it. And, um, I never really had to go and seek
9 it out.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So we have other
11 dysfunctional kids that you were with. Uh, is that fair
12 to say?
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And
15 they’re consuming marijuana. And the draw to them is
16 again marijuana and what ?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, eventually it came to
18 LSD.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. No. I’m
20 talking about the draw to them physically?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Huh?
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Was there
23 something about their situation that was a draw also ?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, no, I would say that our
25 common bond was probably single parent, marginalized
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1 people. One of my best friends was a gay young man and
2 back then, that was, uh, not what it is today. And, um,
3 we were just marginalized peop le.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And that
5 -- that was the draw to them? It was your situation and
6 them.
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I think so. And our
8 commonality of loving marijuana.
10 then. So you say that drug progressed to what?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: LSD.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And how
13 old were you when you took the first, uh, hit of LSD?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I would guess 15-and-a-half.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So what? We
16 have about a year of marijuana use before you go to LSD?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Not that long. Maybe about
18 six months.
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I w -- I think I was 15 the
21 first time I smoked.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS : And under what
23 circumstances did you first take LSD?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I was with my boyfriend, and,
25 um, he was --
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: The father of
2 the child?
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. Bobby, uh, Mackie.
4 And, um, he was staying with som e, uh, older college
5 kids, and so I, um, lied to my mom that I was staying at
6 a girlfriend’s house, and, um, took the LSD at their
7 house.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How often after
9 that did -- well, first of all, what -- did you like the
10 LSD?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. I did.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. What was
13 there about that that would -- did you like?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The hallucinations and the,
15 um, out-of-body experience and, you know, we would read
16 Timothy Leary’s books and list en to Ravi Shankar and the
17 whole idea was to find our inner deep self.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Were you looking
19 for your inner deep self you think?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. I was.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Find it?
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So how often did
24 you use LSD then?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Probably every weekend.
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2 still going to school?
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Somewhere along
5 here -- after that, you become pregnant?
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes, I ran away from home
7 with Bobby up to Haight -Ashbury in the summer of, uh,
8 ’67. And, um, it didn’t work out, and I came back. It
9 was not what we had envisioned . As young people, we
10 weren’t welcomed in places and, um --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, how old --
12 old were you then?
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, 17.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Oh. So it was,
15 like, because you were under 18 you weren’t welcome or
16 what?
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And why was that
19 do you think?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The -- uh, the people that he
21 knew that were up there didn’t want, um, any kind of,
22 uh, police intervention of holding young people there.
23 That’s the f eeling I got at the time, and -- and it was
24 a much colder world than we anticipated because we had
25 come from Monrovia with houses and food, and running
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1 away was a different kind of world. And when we came
2 back, um, I was pregnant.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And when you
4 came back, where were you living? Back with mom?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Back with my mom.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Where was your
7 dad at this time?
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He lived in Manhattan Beach
9 with his, um, second wife.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Manhattan Beach,
11 like in --
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: In California. Southern
13 California.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Southern
15 California. Another Manhattan Beach I think of when you
16 say that. It’s not --
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh, okay. Yeah, the South --
18 the South Bay.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: South Bay, L --
20 LA or (inaudible).
23 you didn’t -- how far away did he live?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He lived, um, I guess it’s
25 about an hour -- hour and a half on the freeway. He
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1 would come and pick us up on weekends in the beginning,
2 and then I began to just tell both of my parents I was
3 staying at a girlfriend’s house when I would be staying
4 with Bobby.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And where
6 -- when you say Bobby, where were you staying?
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Pasadena.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Was it -- did
9 Bobby have a place or --
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He -- he lived with, uh, two
11 older people. Yeah.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: These older
13 people -- male or female or what?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: A couple.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Couple.
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. She was in college.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. By then,
18 did your dad remarry ?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. He -- he remarried
20 rather quickly after the divorce.
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And he would, you know -- he
23 would pick us up and then mom would say the only reason
24 he even bothers is because I make him. You know, it was
25 always that kind of a pressure thing between my parents.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Why would you
2 say a pressure thing? You think -- are you saying that
3 your mom was --
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: She was broken. Just --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, did you
6 get the sense that wasn’t -- that you -- you were -- you
7 had been close to your father. Okay, so did you get the
8 sense that -- th -- that your -- this was true? Your
9 father was just ta king cause she -- cause he had to
10 cause she was saying it? Or what was your sense of it
11 at the time? Your father wanted to have you over there
12 or -- or what?
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I felt that he wanted us, but
14 he was disengaged.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBE RTS: Okay. All
16 right.
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: You know. To be honest with
18 you.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, I hope
20 you’re going to be honest with me.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I’m looking for
23 what that relation ship was --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- cause that
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1 had been close before. Okay.
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It wasn’t close enough where
3 I could talk to him about things that were eating at me.
4 I just loved him a lot.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: But you said he
6 had indicated that you and -- and Bobby could come live
7 -- I’m assuming with the baby --
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. He had a different,
11 uh, approach to life, which was part of why I think they
12 divorced. You know . His was -- we’ve got a problem
13 here, so let’s figure out how we can solve it. And
14 mom’s idea was -- we’ve got a problem here, so we’re
15 going to get rid of it.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS : Figure out how
17 we’re going to solve it. She’s seeing the way of
18 solving it different than your father.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. They’re
21 both trying to solve it .
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER R OBERTS: All right. All
24 right then. So you’ve talked about the abortion in the
25 past. Any -- any additional information you’ve thought
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1 of since the last hearing that ( inaudible) that?
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. It was
4 very impactful in your life?
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. You
7 already said it was done through a psychologist. A lady
8 came and, uh, you aborted the baby there at the house.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And is it true
11 the -- the fetus was placed in a can and buried in the
12 backyard?
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Yes.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: After that
15 happened, was there a -- a change in you do you think?
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So tell us what
18 that change was.
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I was brokenhearted. I
20 was removed --
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What do you mean
22 -- removed?
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- from -- I -- I wanted to
24 along with Bobby be come a yoga renunciate and just -- I
25 kind of flat lined on the rest of high school. I made
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1 it through, but I wasn’t, um, that involved. I stopped
2 using drugs. I had stopped using drugs when I knew I
3 was pregnant actually. And, um, my dad took advantage
4 of the fact that I was going to become a renunciate at a
5 ashram, and I think it’s called Mount Washington, uh,
6 with the Self-Realization Fellowship . And they said
7 that, um, it would be good if I got secretarial skills,
8 so my dad immediately helped me go to a year of Sawyer
9 Business School, and I was a good student. And I
10 meditated all the time. Um, halfway through the
11 business school, I started to want to use, um, drugs
12 again.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Why?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I was, uh, lonely and --
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Lone -- how were
16 you --
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- restless.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Tell me how you
19 were lonely.
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I wasn’t part of the
21 beach community where I was living. I was, um, re stless
22 with the Self-Realization Fellowship, which I pretty
23 much think is partly my age. To try to meditate for
24 three hours a day was something I wasn’t --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How old were you
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1 then?
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Seventeen I think. May be
3 eight -- working toward eighteen.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: School was
5 boring. Okay.
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. I may have been 18. I
7 think I was 18. And, um, yeah, I did very well in
8 school.
10 you’re functioning. Doing well in school.
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. I started to -- af --
12 in the last half of my, uh, Sawyer Business School, I
13 contacted, um, Bobby’s and my old friends in Pasadena,
14 and, um, started to use the, uh, marijuana and LSD
15 again. They had become very involved in methamphetamine
16 at that time.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: They being?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The people from Pasadena.
22 Bobby or --
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No, Bobby stayed, um,
24 involved in the Self -Realization Fellowship.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So he was
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1 in the same program.
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. And that -- that -- I
5 think that had a bit of why I left, too. I think that
6 when I was interested in the Self -Realization
7 Fellowship, it was always with the hope that I could be
8 with Bobby again.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERT S: Was that
10 becoming clear you weren’t going to be with Bobby again?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. It became very clear.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And how
13 so?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I don’t remember if I
15 contacted him or he contacted me, but he was still very
16 -- I -- I -- I found out he was still very dedicated to
17 it and --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So he wasn’t
19 getting out of it.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So it would be
24 incompatible for him to be with somebody who wasn’t in
25 the program? Is that what you’re saying?
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He wanted to be a monk.
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: So --
5 you reengaged with the people who were involved in
6 drugs. And what was the drugs doing for you then? Had
7 it changed any? The -- what the drugs were doing for
8 you personally.
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: They -- at that point, they
10 were -- had become what I was familiar with. And, um, I
11 was without direction.
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It’s what I knew.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So h -- how long
15 -- sounds like there’s a clean period in there when
16 you’re clean and sober.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How long was
19 that?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: About, um -- about a year I
21 think.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Last hearing,
23 you said seven or eight months.
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh, okay.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: That sound
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1 right?
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes, it’s hard -- you know,
3 I’m trying to think August to this and that, but --
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Just trying to
5 get a sense of it.
6 INMATE VAN HOU TEN: Yeah.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You said seven,
8 eight months at the last hearing.
11 so what was the tipping point that you decided -- cause
12 you’d been clean and sober . I assume that was -- had
13 done well for you. What was the tipping point to take
14 you back to drugs do you think?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Th -- it was who I knew and,
16 um, contacting the people that I had known before.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, you -- you
18 had known contacting them there were going to be drugs
19 involved, right?
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So that was part
22 of the reason for contacting them?
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So what was the
25 tipping point before then? What was -- cause that’s --
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1 you know what you’re going to. You know what you’re
2 going to get involved in.
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Knowing that Bobby was
4 staying with the Self -Realization Fellowship.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONE R ROBERTS: So it was the --
6 the change in the relationship with Bobby. All right.
7 All right. So then you reengage your drug usage, and,
8 uh, LSD and, uh, marijuana. You said now they were
9 involved in methamphetamine.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And so did you
12 start consuming methamphetamine then?
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, not -- not at the level
14 that they were, because I didn’t have the money.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So how were you
16 paying for your marijuana and y our LSD up to that point?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: That was just sort of around.
18 It wasn’t at the same kind of, um, level as, uh --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What --
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- and also, it wasn’t as
21 expensive.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS : Well, did you
23 ever have to pay for it?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I’m sure I did, and I
25 probably did with my allowance. My dad was generous.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So your
2 dad was giving you an allowance.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So I have
5 an idea, this is what? ’60 -what -- 7 or 8?
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Eight.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Eight?
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And so how much
10 allowance were you gettin g?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: You know, I can’t remember.
12 He wanted me to have my own bank account so that I would
13 learn how to balance checkbooks and things like that,
14 but not a lot.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. But
16 enough to buy some marijuana and some LSD.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How often were
19 you using marijuana then?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Pretty much every day.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How about LSD?
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, not as much. Probably on
23 weekends.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And then you
25 talked about methamphetamine. When was the first
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1 instance of you using methamphetamine? Do you recall?
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, no.
4 around it?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. Yes. The people were
6 at the -- the Pasadena people were at my place down at
7 the beach. And, um, I probably sniffed it.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (inaudible).
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I ne -- I never injected
10 anything.
12 you -- do you recall your reaction to the first use of
13 methamphetamine?
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. What --
16 what was it? Positives? Negatives? What was that --
17 what was it about that?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I -- I was more involved
19 with the LSD.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you weren’t
21 impressed?
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Did you
24 use methamphetamine after that?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I might have once or twice.
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1 I was, um -- during high school, I was using, um,
2 Benzedrine, the --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Pills?
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The diet pills.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So when you were
6 in high school, how often did you us e Benzedrine?
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, pretty regularly to --
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (inaudible) --
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- make it through school.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. What did
11 it do for you to make it through school?
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Just sped me up and kept me
13 awake.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So it was used
15 as a coping mechanism to get through school?
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Beyond that, did
18 you use it recreationally?
19 INMATE VAN H OUTEN: Um, no, it was just part of
20 my marijuana, Benzedrine, and on the weekends, LSD.
21 That was pretty much my high school. I -- I would
22 consider all of it recreational. You know, I -- it
23 helped me get through school, but I didn’t need it to
24 get through school.
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1 before that?
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: To just be speeded up and I
3 could spend more time with Bobby and not sleep as much
4 and --
6 we’ve fast forwarded. Now w e’re in, uh -- we’re
7 reengaging these folks and consuming, uh, some
8 methamphetamine, but mostly still LSD and marijuana,
9 right? Right. How long does that go on before you
10 start to engage in circumstances around the -- the
11 ranch?
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I graduated from Sawyer
13 Business School in June of ’68, and I left my dad’s
14 house, and I went to Pasadena with my friends who were
15 on their way to Victorville with some other people. So
16 I had, um, left my dad’s and pretty much developed
17 already a nomadic s tyle. I -- I went to Victorville. I
18 put in a couple job applications. I was staying at
19 someone’s, um, uh, small farmhouse.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: In Victorville?
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And -- and how
23 did you come to light there?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, the people from Pasadena
25 knew the person, and it was just people knowing people.
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1 And while I was at --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (inaudible) in
3 that?
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- I don’t know.
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Could’ve been.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: If you don’t --
8 if you don’t know, that’s fine.
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: At -- at that point in life,
10 just about everybody had that if they were together.
11 You know, it w -- it was like the common base of
12 relationships. And, um, a woman was there named Dee who
13 had been also from the old Pasadena days. And she was
14 going back up to San Francisco to be with her husband,
15 um, Duncan. So I went up to San Francisco. I was
16 staying with Dee and Duncan for probably a week or two,
17 and, um, Catherine Share and Robert Beausoleil and Gail,
18 whose last name I don’t remember, met Dee at a party and
19 came back to the apartment. And I had by then become
20 basically indigent, and t hey said -- do you want to come
21 with us? We live for the day. You have to drop out of
22 society. We have a good life, and do you want to come
23 with us? And I said yes.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So were they
25 speaking of living at the ranch or just m -- more
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1 nomadic kind of living?
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, Catherine Share mentioned
3 the ranch and the commune. Bobby didn’t. But they were
4 on their way to meet up with some people from the ranch,
5 and so they were traveling around in a pick-up truck,
6 and I went.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Driving around
8 California in a pick -up truck.
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Panhandling money.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And what general
11 areas were you all --
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Up and down the Coast, t he
13 California Coast.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Give me a sense
15 of what communities where you were in and out of?
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Mendocino. San Francisco.
17 Santa Cruz. Santa Barbara. LA.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: That’s quite a
19 distance.
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Just drove around.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And
24 during that time, you have any other relationships?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. I had called my m other
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1 in San Francisco, and I told her that I was dropping out
2 and that she wouldn’t hear from me again.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How’d that go
4 over?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Not well.
7 Surprised?
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: She was shocked.
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And alarmed.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Were you
12 surprised she was shocked and alarmed?
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, yeah. Yeah.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You knew that --
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: We -- we -- you know, when I
16 was at Sawyer Business School, mom and I would meet once
17 a week, and she -- she was trying so desperately. It’s
18 a hard time to look back on. She was -- she was trying
19 so desperately to rekind le some sort of a relationship,
20 and I just was not going to have it. I -- I just was
21 not.
23 about your father?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Dad was always just
25 disengaged. You know, instead of asking me what was I
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1 doing, you know, with all these people coming to the
2 house and all, he just chose not to, um, confront.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So now, you’re
4 traveling around California. You told your mom you’re
5 leaving society basically. Right? Was there a r eason
6 you told your mom?
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It was the one condition to
8 go with the group -- that you had to drop out.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So you
10 had to tell someone? You had to tell mom you were --
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Cut -- you had to cut ties,
12 and I wanted to tell her.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Why?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, so she wouldn’t look for
15 me, wouldn’t --
17 (inaudible) --
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- worry about me.
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: You know. Which is --
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- I’m talking
22 about (inaudible) --
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- unreasonable I know, but -
24 -
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You talked about
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1 rebelling, and I’m trying to get into whether or not
2 this is still part of this rebelling thing going on.
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Well, I just wanted
4 her to know I’m -- I’m out.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So it wasn’t
6 about rebelling by then.
7 INMATE VAN H OUTEN: Um, I’m sure there was a bit
8 of sticking it.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Right. That’s
10 fair.
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: You know.
13 So now you’re traveling around California. How do we
14 end up at the ranch and --
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Bobby and Gail fought a lot.
16 They argued a lot because --
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Bobby --
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Bobby Beausoleil.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- Beausoleil.
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He had -- Gail and Bobby had
21 been boyfriend and girlfriend. And Bob -- this is all
22 what I’m assuming from the backstory -- that, um, Bobby
23 had been at the ranch and wanted a lot of girls like
24 Manson had. And so Gypsy -- Catherine Share -- was with
25 them, and Gail argu ed a lot because she wanted Bobby and
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1 -- she wanted them to be together and wanted us to not
2 be there. And the whole time they would be arguing,
3 Gypsy was in the back of the pick -up talking to me about
4 how wonderful Manson was, that he was Christlike, tha t
5 there was this commune, and all of that. So part of the
6 Manson group were up in, uh, a orchard in San Jose, and
7 their bus had broken down because they traveled around
8 in a converted school bus. And we went there. We had -
9 - we had stopped by the ranch once when it was Bobby,
10 Gail, Catherine, and I, but we left that night. So I
11 was familiar with the, uh, people that were there. And
12 at the San Jose orchard, we stopped there to try to help
13 them fix their school bus, and I left with, um,
14 Catherine, and went down to the ranch and left Bobby at
15 that time, and I -- I did because the arguing and, um --
16 had become too much. And she made the ranch sound
17 awfully good. And so I made the choice to leave Bobby
18 and go down to the ranch.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROB ERTS: How old were you
20 when you made that choice ?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Eight -- nineteen.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Nineteen. But
23 when you were meeting, were you up at the bus -- where
24 the bus is broke down -- who all was up there? Was
25 Manson there at the time?
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. He was -- he was down
2 at, um, Spahn’s Ranch. It was -- if I recall -- it’s
3 hard to picture and recall, but I would say Nancy
4 Pitman, um, probably -- I -- I -- I can’t tell you the
5 exact names. I -- I don’t want to say and not be sure.
6 There were about --
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You had not --
8 you had not yet met --
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- seven or eight. Yeah. I
10 had met him once.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You had met
12 Manson once.
15 circumstances under which you had met Mr. Manson?
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, Bobby went down to talk
17 to him and stopped by the ranch, and he h -- Manson had
18 wanted Bobby to stay for the night and take an acid trip
19 that we would all take one together. I met Catherine --
20 I met, um, Lynette Fromme and, um, Ruthie Moorehouse.
21 Couple of the other women were there.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you went down
23 to the ranch.
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: But we stayed only an hour or
25 two and we left.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And --
2 and was this before the bus found -- the bus is broke
3 down or --
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: This was, um, before.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So you’d
6 been to the ra nch once before.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. This is,
9 uh -- had you already been told the -- this was a -- a
10 great place and --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So you’d
13 already heard that story.
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. Every day.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Every day.
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: For months.
18 then. So back up. We’re at the bus fighting. Who all
19 -- you and who went to the ranch?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: We couldn’t fix the bus, and
21 so people hitchhiked back to the ranch. And, um --
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How far away was
23 it?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: From San Jose to LA.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Oh, okay.
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: So it was quite wa -- quite a
2 ways.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. How long
4 did it take you to get from the bus to the ranch?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, we -- this other girl and
6 I got pretty steady rides, so we made it in -- how --
7 within -- we didn’t stop till we got there.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How long did it
9 take you?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I don’t know how long
11 that ride is anymore, but probably six, seven, eight
12 hours.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Didn’t take you
14 days?
17 right. You get down to the ranch. Who all is there?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, the people that had, um,
19 been part of the, uh, group, so Lynette Fromme, Dianne
20 Lake, Steve Grogan, Tex Watson, um, Ruthie Moorehouse,
21 Ella Fitz -- Ella -- Ella, um --
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Was Manson there
23 at the time?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes, Manson -- Manson. Um,
25 I’m trying to think of who the --
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, there w as
2 a crowd of people there.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So what was your
5 first take when you showed up at the ranch?
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: They were all very welcoming
7 and caring and happy that Catherine and I were there.
8 And, um, wel -- you know, embracing, friendly.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Is this
10 something you were looking for?
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So --
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, I felt I belonged.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSION ER ROBERTS: Okay.
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And they helped me feel that
16 way.
18 how long did that kind of a feeling exist while you were
19 at the ranch? Did it change at some point or --
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, the sessions with, um,
21 Manson at night, you know -- the -- were sometimes
22 uncomfortable because he was trying to, um, do what he
23 called us shedding our egos, um, letting go of the
24 institutions, so while -- while we were all loving and
25 caring with each other, we would not be sympathetic to
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1 anyone being homesick. You know, like if someone
2 thought that I was missing m -- memories of my childhood
3 or something like that, then it would be mocked and we
4 would do that with each other while we embroidered and
5 sat around, so the -- it was still loving and embracing,
6 but it wasn’t always, um, comfortable because the agenda
7 was to shed our past selves. We had different names,
8 and it was all turned into games.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What was your
10 name?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, they called me Lulu.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Lulu.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Why that?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: But for Manson, I was
16 basically what’s her name. You know. Th -- they called
17 me Lulu cause my middle name was Louise. The serious
18 name changing had occurred prior to my getting there,
19 and I didn’t have ID, and, um, the other -- at some
20 point prior to my getting there, everyone had gotten IDs
21 and s -- someone Manson knew from the federal prison I
22 guess was doing that. But --
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you’re
24 talking about (inaudible) IDs. You’re talking, like,
25 driver’s license --
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Whatever they needed.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- (inaudible ).
3 D -- did you get one?
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You didn’t get
6 one.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you said
9 Lulu, and so that was all about your middle name.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Was that
12 Manson called you what’s your name? What’s her name?
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, he -- he always -- I --
14 in hindsight, I think he knew that the more he didn’t
15 know me, the more important it was for me to make sure I
16 impressed him. To be honest with you.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So he sensed
18 that insecurity or that need from you?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- I think so. I think so.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Now, during
21 these sessions with Manson, were drugs used?
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, now and then, we would
23 take the LSD, but always marijuana.
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It was -- it was just around.
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2 often was LSD used?
3 INMATE VAN H OUTEN: Um, as frequently as he was
4 able to get it, but I would say at least within every
5 two weeks. You know. The -- a long time would not go
6 by. So maybe a week, 10 days, like that.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Between LSD
8 sessions.
9 INMATE VAN HOU TEN: Yeah.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Talked about
11 this at the last hearing, but do you think the drugs
12 were used as some kind of a mechanism for this
13 doctrination ?
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: It was your
16 sense of it then that was happening? Cause you talked
17 about you had a sense that he didn’t allow others to
18 revisit home in -- in terms of mentally and (inaudible).
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I didn’t think of it in
20 terms of indoctrination, but I knew it was a clea nsing.
21 So it’s all language. You know?
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, one could
23 (inaudible) in place indoctrination and cleansing,
24 right?
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay, so --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- basically all
4 the same thing.
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I knew that it was to help me
8 let go of whatever I was holding on to.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And why
10 did you feel the need to do that?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Because it was to all become
12 one -- one being, one mind.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How was that
14 going to happen?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Through getting rid of our
16 egos. We -- we didn’t have any thing that belonged to
17 us. Like, we shared clothes. If someone saw I was
18 wearing clothes too many times, they would make sure
19 they got it for the next day. You know. Every -- the -
20 - the rug was always kind of being shaken, and, um, you
21 know, rather than seeing that as a red flag, I saw that
22 as, um, me needing to let go a little bit more.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So what were you
24 letting go of?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: My morality, my ethics.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Why did you feel
2 the need to let go of your morality and your ethics?
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Because it was taught to me
4 by my parents and the language there was to let go of
5 everything the primary institutions had, um, taught me,
6 taught all of us.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Was -- you
8 talked about some kind of verbal -- I don’t want to say
9 abuse, but similar, that kind of, like, abuse. Was
10 there any physical kind of, um -- physical things used,
11 uh, to reinforce the -- the goals or the philosophies of
12 the -- the group or what Manson thought or whatever?
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Did I -- did I witness people
14 getting hit?
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Where -- was
16 physical abuse --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- used?
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: It was. And who
21 typically would enforce that?
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He would -- Manson would do
23 the physical abuse.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And what kind of
25 things would get people, uh, physically abused?
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1 INMATE VAN H OUTEN: Um, not doing what he said.
2 Like, a woman -- like, when we would take the LSD, we
3 were told we couldn’t move, that we would stay there and
4 not move, and I remember a woman named, um, Bo stood up,
5 and he just went at her. Broke a chair over her he ad.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So was it used
7 in other ways? Other things enforced? Physical abuse?
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, if you -- I always just
9 knew it -- that if you didn’t do what he said or if you
10 spoke back to him, which I didn’t do. You know, I would
11 see these things and become very complacent.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, why
13 wouldn’t you do it --
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I didn’t --
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- if you
16 thought something was wrong or something?
17 INMATE VAN HOU TEN: I didn’t want to be hurt.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, there was
19 a physical side of this, too.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How often would
22 that kind of thing occur?
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Whenever someone, which w as
24 usually somebody in just about every, um, acid trip
25 would do something.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Wh -- what do
2 you mean -- do something?
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: That would displease him, and
4 he’d slap and, you know.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What typically -
6 - you talked about one person getting up. What oth --
7 what other kinds of things would happen? They say
8 something? Wh -- what would it be?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, or go to leave or, um,
10 Mary Brunner got beat up a lot and I --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Why did she get
12 beat up?
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- that would just be in our
14 everyday life. Um --
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Who would be
16 beating her up?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Manson.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Why would those
19 things -- what would cause him to do that?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: She disagreed with him on
21 something.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So if you
23 disagreed, you got beat.
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. If you didn’t do what
25 he wanted, you got beat up.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So far, you
2 mentioned women. How about the guys? They getting beat
3 up? What was going on with them?
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I never saw the guys get beat
5 up, and they didn’t beat people up. I -- I didn’t -- I
6 didn’t ever see the men.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So this was all
8 -- Manson was the perpetrator of all the abuse.
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. He -- he -- he
10 conducted everything that happened.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You said on
12 women, but you didn’t see him d o it on men.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Were men
15 speaking up also?
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. Not that I saw.
18 how long were you there before you saw this first
19 physical abuse on somebody? How long had you been
20 there?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Probably -- probably a couple
22 months. Because the violence kept escalating.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: When you got
24 there, there wasn’t any violence? That fair to say?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I can’t say that there
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1 wasn’t, but I wasn’t, um, seeing it.
3 didn’t see any.
6 can only -- you can only testify to what you saw and --
7 okay.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So after a
10 couple months, you saw violence escalate.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Did it continue
13 to escalate while you were there?
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Was there any
16 point at which it was very obvious that there was a lot
17 of physical violence or -- or a change in the attitude
18 or focus of the group?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes, that happened in January
20 of 1969.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIO NER ROBERTS: Do you recall
22 what -- what it was that happened around that that
23 might’ve been the precursor for that?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I was up at, uh, Barker
25 Ranch with some of the other people, and Manson and a
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1 few others had gone into town -- into LA.
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And they were gone for a
4 while, and when he came back, the whole, um, tone of him
5 changed. And it began to go into the talk of -- there
6 will be a revolution. And that philosophy began to be
7 expounded upon. At -- there was a point before we went
8 to the desert that I think was probably keyed to a
9 change at the ranch --
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What was that?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- on hindsight, you know.
12 Every -- every -- of course you know everything’s
13 hindsight when I’m -- was there, I --
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- wasn’t putting the pieces
16 together. So there was a time where he said to us --
17 baa like sheep, and we all did. And I felt t hat that
18 was pretty important to him.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: In what way do
20 you think?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Total control.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So that was his
23 -- that was right -- recognition by him that he had
24 total control in th e group.
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: That -- I’m reading it like
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1 that.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. Well
3 --
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Because --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You were there.
6 None of the rest of us were.
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- it kind of began to shift.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And you were
9 there, and none of the rest of us were. All right. So
10 did you notice it -- you said hindsight. But did you
11 notice it at the time that that was a different --
12 difference in the -- the group?
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m -- you know, to remember
14 it almost 50 years ago, it had to have hit me.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. In -- in
16 what way do you think it hit you?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I think it was, um --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERT S: Negative or
19 positive way?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, probably positive at that
21 time.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And --
23 and -- and how -- how so would it have been positive?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: That we were all of one mind.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIO NER ROBERTS: Okay. Cause you
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1 talked about that was the goal -- to be of one --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So it --
4 so that was a -- some would call it a a -ha moment.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: That we’re all
7 together now. That was kind of the clinching thing. Is
8 that what you’re saying?
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: That closes it.
11 You’re all --
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- one mind.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. But
16 fast forwarding then, you talk about him coming back,
17 and he’d been in San Francisco you said?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- I think he was in LA.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Oh, LA.
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I don’t -- I don’t know where
21 -- he never would tell anyone where he was going. I’m
22 sure people knew, but I wasn’t one of the people that
23 he, uh -- he would’ve told.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: During this time
25 up to the a-ha moment of -- backing up a little bit --
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1 of the baa -- you know, baying of the sheep, um, were
2 people coming and going from this group? Some people
3 coming, some people leaving. Did you talk last time
4 about some people --
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Some --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- that
7 disappeared in the middle of the night, but --
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, it wasn’t -- in the
9 beginning, it wasn’t as solidified, and then it began
10 to, um, solidify more. Like, like , Catherine -- like,
11 she brought me. She would bring other people. And I
12 remember at one point him telling someone -- we’re
13 getting too big. You know. So it began to get tighter.
14 And some people left because he had used up their bank
15 accounts, because he had their pink slip, b ecause they
16 weren’t going to attract men. You know. Whatever --
17 whatever reason, there was usually a bit of a line on
18 who was able to go and who wasn’t.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So how would you
20 be on the side of the fence that would allow you to go?
21 How -- what would -- what characteristics would you have
22 that would put you in that group?
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I’m thinking people that
24 weren’t so compliant, that people that didn’t have any
25 monetary value, because when you got there, you had t o
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1 give him everything you had. You know. That was part
2 of going to the ranch. At least my understanding.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And when you
4 went to the ranch, what di d you give?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Just me.
7 had nothing. You had no financial --
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. No.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: No wealth or
10 anything to -- to turn over to Manson.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: But others did
13 have property.
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Some of them did. A woman
15 named Juanita came, and he cleaned her out, and then --
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What happened to
17 Juanita after he cleaned her out?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: She was free to leave.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER RO BERTS: So it was --
20 there clearly different kinds of -- two different groups
21 a -- as it were, one being a subset of the other. One
22 being very close knit, um, and then , uh, very much a
23 looser-knit group around them?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. And I think that around
25 that January was when it really became clear.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Clear to
2 you or to others or what?
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, or I should say defined.
4 I’m not -- I’m not sure. I -- I would like to say clear
5 to me, but I -- I’m not going to say that.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So around
7 January. And that’s, um, January of ’69.
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. There were -- there
9 were, like, layers around Manson.
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The original three, uh,
12 Krenwinkel, Brunner, and, um, S -- Lynette Fromme.
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And then there were the next,
15 which were the juveniles of Dianne Lake, Ruthie
16 Moorehouse, and Nancy Pitman. And then there w ere the
17 next layer of which I was part of.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you were a
19 third layer down.
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’d say that.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Where was Tex in
22 that group?
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m not sure. He -- he was,
24 uh, already there, so I would assume he would’ve been in
25 the second or -- it w -- it was -- the men were mainly
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1 Tex, Paul, and, um, Steve Grogan, and then, um, I guess
2 Bruce Davis had been there and left and came back.
3 Cause I met him when I was already th ere.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, we talked
5 about Beausoleil. And you’ve talke d about him in the
6 past.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Where would he
9 fit into this onion?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He -- he was always coming
11 and going, and Manson really wanted him to stay.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What do you
13 think was the draw to him in particular -- wanting him
14 to stay?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um --
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What was that
17 about him do you think?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- I have my speculations,
19 but I don’t, you know -- he never specified.
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He was a good musician, and I
22 think that Manson really wanted to do something with his
23 music. He was an attractive man which meant he would’ve
24 been an attraction to women. And honestly, I don’t know
25 sexual preference, so --
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2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m -- I’m --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So there was
4 things that you could garner why he’d want that guy.
5 Draw in more females --
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: He liked the mu
8 -- the music. He was involved in music. Okay. All
9 right. So you saw some potentials why he was -- wanted
10 to be at the ranch or --
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes, and he was -- Manson was
12 adamant that when Bobby was around, I was to make sure
13 that he stayed happy and try to keep him to stay as long
14 as he could.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What did that
16 mean to you?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Being around Bobby.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. What
19 would he mean -- being around?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Spending my time with Bobby.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Sex with him or
22 what?
25 right.
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2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. Was
3 that inferred? You were to keep him happy and that
4 included --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- having sex
7 with him?
10 right.
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. The women at the ranch
12 were basically used for sex, fixing dinner . You know,
13 it was pretty, uh -- I don’t know what you call it these
14 days. It was very misogynist.
16 probably a good word.
19 right. All right then. So we talked about a change.
20 All right. So I think we’re getting c loser to the
21 October era. Right? Of ’69? So you said you’d seen
22 the change. Started talking about this revolution. H -
23 - did that change the -- the nature or the dynamics of
24 those group sessions and activities at the ranch?
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How so?
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: We, um -- he -- Manson began
3 to talk about that the, um, blacks had been suppressed
4 and mistreated by the white and that karma was changing,
5 and the blacks needed to -- or we’re going to rise up
6 and that we needed to prepare for a revolution. And his
7 conversations while we were on LSD, um -- w -- well, we
8 were still up in the desert. That happened when we got
9 back to the ranch. But, um, that we needed to go back
10 into LA I guess. Somehow we ende d up back. We were on
11 a street called Gresham Street. There were, like, maybe
12 13 or 15 of us living at Gresham. And two of us would
13 leave at a time so the neighbors wouldn’t know there
14 were 15 people there. And we --
16 what kind of structure was this?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It was a regular house in a
18 neighborhood.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So it’s a
20 -- like, a tract home or something?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, yeah.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBER TS: Okay. All
23 right. Just want to get a sense of it.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So there’s -- so
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1 no -- so they wouldn’t know lots of people are coming
2 and going, you just left in small groups.
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And usually, the same people
6 would leave.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So what was the
8 reason you all went to LA?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, to start preparing for
10 the revolution, and at that poin t, we were listening to
11 the -- at -- at Gresham, we were listening to the
12 Beatles White album constantly. Manson felt that they
13 were talking to him. And so we would spend our time,
14 and I would read to him out of the Book of Revelation.
15 He would call me in and have me read him --
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Out of the
17 Bible.
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Constantly.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Al -- always
20 Revelations?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Trying to figure out
22 the symbolisms.
23 PRESIDING COMM ISSIONER ROBERTS: And the times?
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You’re starting
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1 to cry. What’s going on?
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Uh --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What are you
4 feeling? What emotion are you feeling right now? This
5 is the first time you’ve shown emotion really. You did
6 a little bit earlier, but I’m really seeing it now.
7 What are you feeling right now at this moment?
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m -- to tell you the truth,
9 the older I get, the harder it is to live with all of
10 this, and, um, it’s difficult to --
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- know what I did.
14 Well, we’ll get --
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: How it happened.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSION ER ROBERTS: All right.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You feel even
19 your involvement in that kind of thing, reading him
20 Revelations, had some kind of impact on the overall
21 outcome of all of this?
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Sure. I think it all added
23 to the madness.
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: You know, because in looking
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1 for the symbols, of course they were found. You know.
2 They -- they -- so at Gresham, we, um, did a lot of
3 listening in headsets and really immersing ourselves in
4 the White album and --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I’m trying to
6 get this. The last thing you talked about -- you guys
7 were supposed to go live i n some hole in the desert for
8 --
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: This --
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- you know,
11 when -- when was that whole philosophy --
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: After Gresham.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: After Gresham?
14 Okay. So when you were down at Gresham, what was the --
15 the reason to be there was to do what ?
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: To, um -- I think that -- I’m
17 -- I’m guessing. I’m guessing that Man --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What was your
19 understanding?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- that Manson was trying to
21 work it out with George Spahn to get us back at the
22 ranch. I’m not sure what --
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (inaudible) had
24 a problem -- were you kicked out of the ranch ?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m -- I’m thinking there
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1 was.
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m thinking there was.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: D -- did you
5 guys have to leave the ranch rather quickly?
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I wouldn’t have known
7 that. I just knew that I went up to the desert and
8 stayed for a while, and when we came back, I believe we
9 were at Gresham.
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Or we might’ve been for a
12 minute at the ranch, but we ended at Gresham, and I’m --
13 I’m under the impression there was pressure there --
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- and -- but I would not
16 have been privy to the goings on like that.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You weren’t in
18 that layer of the onion.
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: So we would have the circles
22 at Gresham as well, and they became, um, more intimate.
23 He was always trying to have us, uh, be able to
24 accomplish, uh, sexual orgies, which never happened.
25 Um, he would have us stand naked in front of everyone
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1 while he critiqued us as pe ople. And, um --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How did you feel
3 when that -- did it happen to you?
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Humiliated.
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: But instead of reading the
7 humiliation as -- for God’s sake, get out of here, I
8 read it as -- um, I have to let go of all of my ego. Ev
9 -- everything that could’ve indicated to me that I
10 needed to get out of there, I couldn’t interpret it that
11 way. I was interpreting it as self judgement.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSION ER ROBERTS: Wh -- why do you
13 think that was?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Because I so desperately
15 wanted to be what he envisioned us being.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Which was?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: An empty vessel of -- of him.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBE RTS: You wanted to be
19 part of him.
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Yeah, part of the
21 whole thought of which he was the --
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Center.
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Yeah.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (inaudible) in a
25 sense be one with him.
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Exactly.
3 right. All right then. So you guys are down in LA for
4 a while, then what? You went back to the ranch.
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: We -- we go back to the
6 ranch.
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And, um --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: About when?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- begin --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Circa what?
12 When do you think you went back to the ranch?
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’d say somewhere around, um,
14 February or March.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Had there been
16 any, uh, murders that you know of yet?
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Had there been
19 any speak of murders? This revolution thought -- had
20 there been already speaking of murder?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He -- he was beginning to.
22 He was beginning to use the idea that, um, if you die
23 for me and we’re one -- no. Yeah. If you -- if -- if
24 you die for me, and we’re one, then you’re -- if you ki
25 -- I forget the logic of it. But basically, if we’re
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1 one, if you kill me, you’re just killing yourself, and
2 we’re a shell. And he began that, um, mantra which went
3 on for a long time. And then, um, he would reenact his
4 crucifixion.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: His crucifixion.
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Cause he was Christ --
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Oh.
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- come back.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Oh, he -- so he
10 espoused that he was Christ --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- reincarnated.
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And, um, that, um --
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So he was going
17 to have another crucifixion or revisiting his last?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He was revisiting what
19 happened, and he said because that happened last time,
20 now that he was back, it was going to go differently.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Oh.
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He wasn’t going to be so, um,
23 forgiving.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Oh. Okay.
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: So, um -- and I believed it.
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2 talked about that and started getting -- this
3 revolution. When did we start talking about killing
4 people and so forth? W hen did that start?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He said that during the
6 revolution that we would see a lot of very ugly things,
7 that war was ugly and that we needed to get our minds
8 adjusted to fear because he -- he -- he -- he turned
9 everything into living in fea r. And we would begin to
10 try to creep up on each other because if -- if someone
11 could creep up on me, it meant I was thinking too much
12 and I wasn’t living in fear, that I wasn’t aware, that
13 fear makes people aware. So he began to -- when we were
14 on LSD, he would begin to talk about gruesome images.
15 And, um, then he began to talk about killing. And so it
16 moved in that direction.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And who would
18 you be killing?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The, um -- at that time, it
20 wasn’t that sp ecific. About two or three weeks before
21 the murders, and I’m not -- I’m not clear on the time.
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: But prior to the mor --
24 murders, he began to say that it looked like the blacks
25 weren’t going to star t the revolution, that we would
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1 have to. And that’s when he began seriously talking
2 about us killing people.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Now, the racial
4 make-up of the group -- was it all Caucasian?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It was all white.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All Caucasian.
7 Okay. How is that going to work? I’m just -- like, if
8 y -- if you’re all Caucasian, you start a black
9 revolution, and I guess that’s against Caucasians,
10 right?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: His -- his idea, which I’m
12 not sure I knew at the time -- I don’t -- I don’t think
13 I knew it at the time. But his idea -- well, I did know
14 that it was to make it look like the blacks had done it,
15 so then the whites would retaliate against the blacks
16 and the blacks would begin to defend them selves, and
17 then there would be the war.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So it was a big
19 racial war.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And -- and did
22 he offer an opinion as to what the ultimate outcome of
23 that war was going to be?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The, um, blacks would win.
25 And that’s where we were going to go and hide for 150
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1 years, and our job during the revolution was to go into
2 the cities on the dune buggies we were working on and
3 gather up children -- white children -- and take them
4 into the hole so that when the karma changed, we would
5 be there and come out.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How is that
7 going to work out? Going to start a war that we’re
8 going to lose cause we’re white -- how did that -- how
9 did that play out in your guys’ minds? I don’t --
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: We -- we didn’t even get that
11 far. We were busy trying to get ropes and looking for
12 the hole in the middle of the earth.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Find the
14 hole?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: D -- d -- I just didn’t
16 question.
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Just didn’t question.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I mean, just --
20 just looking on -- on the face value of that, we’re
21 going to start something that we’re goi ng to lose. The
22 plan is we want to lose, right?
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: But is the point
25 you’re saying it didn’t have to make sense to you?
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2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Didn’t have to
3 make sense.
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He lived on no sense makes
5 sense, and I’d been around a long time, and if it didn’t
6 make sense, then I needed to let go of that part of me
7 that was trying to make sense of it.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So why would you
9 take him at face value? ( inaudible) face value. Why
10 would you do that at that time?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Because when I first got
12 there, I really needed someone to have the answers, and
13 at that time, it seemed --
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: It could’ve been
15 an Elvis -- it could’ve been Elvis Presley.
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Well, I was -- I was told he
17 had the answers, and I was lost, and Catherine Share,
18 you know --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Lot of influence
20 by Share. Was she older than you?
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Yeah, I mean --
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: She was quite older than me.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you’re
25 speaking of influence by older females.
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I think so.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIO NER ROBERTS: Okay. All
3 right.
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And I desperately --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Did you look up
6 to Catherine?
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Mm-hmm. Yes, I did.
9 what was there about Catherine that you looked up to?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, at the time I met her in
11 Haight-Ashbury, I was very lonely. I had tried to get
12 myself together after the abortion.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What
14 characteristics did she -- you gravitate toward?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: She -- sh -- I remember, um,
16 she would put on an older woman kind of image, and I
17 think I saw her as a substitute of my mom that I had let
18 go of.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Well, was
20 it --
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And she kind of --
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Did she have
23 aspects that you wanted your mom to have that your mom
24 didn’t have at that time you thought?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Mm, caring and embracing.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: See. That’s
2 what I’m ask -- asking you.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you didn’t
7 see at that time your mom as caring and embracing.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: This person, you
10 did. Okay.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I see what
13 implicating. I see what you’re -- okay. Back to where
14 we were originally at. I wanted to know why you would
15 get the -- okay. Um, all right then. So let’s ta lk
16 about the days of. So we’re going to be talking about
17 the -- the 9th and the 10th of August. What’s going on?
18 What happened?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It -- the talk had been
20 escalating, and there were people going out on what were
21 called creepy crawlies, which were going into people’s
22 homes and taking things.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Burglaries?
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: While the people
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1 were there or not there?
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know. I -- I didn’t
3 participate. I did rob my dad’s house .
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You burglarized
5 your dad’s house.
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Burglarized, yes.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Robbed.
8 Was he present when you did it?
11 burglarized his house.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And what did you
14 take out of your dad’s house?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: A rug, just things. It was
16 more of a symbolic gesture of turn ing on my dad and
17 committing to Manson.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Well, let
19 -- let’s -- was your dad’s specifically picked by Manson
20 or by you?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. It -- it was, um -- we
22 were supposed to go out and I suggested my dad.
24 made the offer --
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- of your dad’s
2 place. Okay. Why was that? Cause your dad had been
3 supportive of you. Loving of you. ( inaudible).
4 INMATE VAN H OUTEN: I, um -- I needed to make a
5 gesture to prove myself to Manson.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Right. So you
7 guys were out doing burglaries. Now, I see a whole
8 bunch of car things. Remember we talked about that --
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- (inaudible )
11 these cars --
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- and
14 burglaries. Okay. Was that happening daily?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I -- I couldn’t tell you.
16 I know it was happening a lot. So anyway, it was --
17 that kind of behavior was escalating, and, um, Pat and I
18 were in a little kind of, um, trailer taking care of the
19 children, and Manson came and opened the door and told
20 her to come with him. And so --
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Was it day or
22 night? What?
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It was late at night.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Was it the 9th
25 or the 10th?
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: This was the 9th.
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And so the next morning, I
4 saw Pat outside of a trailer, and she said that helter
5 skelter had started.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And what’d that
7 mean?
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It meant that people had been
9 murdered.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What did the
11 whole helter skelter thing mean to that group? What --
12 when somebody said helter skelter to that group, what
13 did that mean?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Revolution and chaos.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So revolution
16 and chaos had started.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And you’re
19 saying that and --
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And she said that it didn’t
21 seem right, that the people were young, that one of the
22 women were pregnant, and, um, when she told me, I knew
23 that she had crossed over and fully comm itted to the
24 cause --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What -- were you
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1 --
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- by participating and --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Were her -- were
4 her words shocking to you in any way at that time?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, no.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: No?
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. I knew it was going to
8 start.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So it
10 didn’t bother you that young people and a pregnant woman
11 had been killed at that time?
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It bothered me, but a --
13 again, you know, I never questioned why they were
14 selected or why it happened. But I knew that because
15 Pat had committed herself and early on in my time at the
16 ranch, Manson had told me to stay very close to Pat, I
17 knew that I wanted to go and commit to the cause, too.
18 I believed in it, and I wanted to go.
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: So that night --
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, first of
22 all, it -- was there any thoughts about -- now this
23 thing has started and you weren’t there? Any thoughts
24 about that internally with you? You weren’t invited
25 along on the first foray?
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: You mean jealousy?
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Yeah, well --
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- I don’t --
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- it could be
5 jealousy. It could be --
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I don’t -- I don’t think so.
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Because this was going to go
9 on all the time. There wasn’t a limit to how man y.
10 There would be a second night and a third night and on
11 and on.
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: So I lived out the day. I
14 don’t remember much of the day. That night on the
15 boardwalk, Manson saw me or maybe it was during the day
16 -- I don’t remember. But he said to me -- are you crazy
17 enough to believe in me? And I said yes, I am. And so
18 I was told to go get a change of clothes.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What -- was this
20 all part of the plan before when you guys wer e talking
21 about going out and doing these things? Had you guys
22 role played these going out and killing people or gone
23 through any kind of exercises or --
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: W -- we -- we had, like, um,
25 karate lessons from a guy named Dave, and, um --
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Was that
2 supposed to be part of the helter skelter or was that
3 supposed to be --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- part of
6 defense stuff when --
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Part of --
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- you were, uh,
9 protecting yourself in the hole?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I think to -- probably part
11 of the revolution prepare, and, um, you know, Manson
12 would demonstrate things while, uh, killing.
14 mean? Like, stabbing or something?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. I -- I don’t -- to be
16 honest with you, I remember a pencil and the jugular
17 vein. I -- I -- mainly it was, uh, being prepared for
18 violence.
20 back to where we were at. Day before. You th -- you
21 don’t remember a lot. You said you -- he asked you to
22 go on the board -- where’s this boardwalk at?
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It’s in front of -- we were
24 at the -- Spahn’s Movie Ranch, and so it was, like, a --
25 a movie set for cowboy movies --
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2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- and so the boardwalk went
3 in front of a series of buildings, rooms.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Old-style s --
5 sidewalk.
7 PRESIDING COMM ISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. I got it.
8 Okay. All right. So it was there at the ranch.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And you were
11 told to get a set of clothes. Was that kind of standard
12 or are we talk ed about that before or was that new to
13 you -- get clothes?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I don’t remember being
15 surprised to get clothes, but it -- I’m not sure what --
16 it was the first time I’d been asked, so, you know.
18 then what happened?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: So I got a change of clothes,
20 and I got in the car with, um -- would you like me to
21 say everyone that was in the car?
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Yeah.
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Okay. We got in, um -- I’m
24 not sure if I’m going to ge t his name right, but we had
25 -- I think his name is, uh, Gary Schwartz -- I don’t
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1 remember his name -- car. And it was, uh, Linda
2 Kasabian, Tex Watson, Manson, Pat Krenwinkel, me, Steve
3 Grogan, and Susan Atkins. We were all in the car.
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And we left.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: The guy that
7 owned the car -- was he in the car, too?
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No, he knew nothing about it.
9 He was, uh -- he was a ranch hand.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER RO BERTS: Okay. All
11 right.
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I don’t even know if he knew
13 his car was being used.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What kind of car
15 was this?
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Lot of people in
18 it. Not a van?
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Not a car?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, a -- you know, a standard
22 --
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Sedan?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: 19 --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Lot of
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1 people in that car.
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- ’60, ‘70s, with -- yeah,
3 we were packed.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Lot of
5 people in that car. Okay. All right. So you all got
6 in the car. You know about what time that was that you
7 all piled into that car?
8 INMATE VAN H OUTEN: No.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Dark?
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So then
12 what happened?
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: We drove and we drove around
14 for about three hours.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And when you say
16 drove around, where?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He would look for places.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: We’re -- we’re
19 talking about in LA and Hollywood or what?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes, around LA.
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I don’t remember everywhere
23 we went.
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: We went to a house. I
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1 remember that it had a -- a lot of ivy, and he went up
2 to the window and saw a picture of a child, so he came
3 back. Uh, we drove b y a church and he wanted to see if
4 there was the preacher there so that he could hang him
5 upside down on a cross and he -- we just kept driving
6 around.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Any drugs
8 consumed prior to this?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Just smoking weed.
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Marijuana. We -- we were not
12 on LSD.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So as
14 you’re driving around in the car, you guys smoking
15 marijuana?
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I don’t remember doing that.
17 No.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Had smoked
19 marijuana before?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Probably during the day.
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- I --
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So out on this
24 foray, you don’t recall smo king marijuana and you said
25 no LSD, no methamphetamine, none of that stuff.
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. Not for me.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How about the
3 others in the car?
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, you’re
6 that close of, uh --
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He -- he -- he doled out
8 different, um, kinds of drugs to different people and so
9 --
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (inaudible)?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, I’m not sure if people
12 were using methamphetamin e or not. I -- I don’t want to
13 say no because I really don’t know.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, you’re in
15 that close proximity. I think you would see people
16 snorting drugs --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- and, uh -- or
19 whatever. You didn’t see any of that.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. But for
22 you, nothing.
25 then what? You drove around, saw this ivy p lace, saw a
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1 church. I guess there’s no reverend or preacher or, uh,
2 father there.
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. So we ended up, um, in
4 front of the, uh -- Mr. and Mrs. LaBianca’s home.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Was there
6 anything unique about that h ome you can think of?
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Big home? Small
9 home? Just looked like a standard home?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Nice home.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Nice home.
12 Okay. All right. Well, you’d been in m iddle class, so
13 would you say it was, like, upper -middle class or --
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Upper.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Upper-middle
16 class. Not a mansion.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Look like a
19 mini-mansion.
22 right. Any indicator why that house?
25 just knew there was a house.
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2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS : All right. So
3 you guys pull in front. What happened then?
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, Manson and Tex went in,
5 and we stayed in the car. And then Manson came back and
6 pulled out Pat and I. And they told -- he told us to do
7 everything that, um, Tex said t o do. And, um, we went
8 into the house.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So this car has
10 got a lot of people in it yet, huh?
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What -- what
13 happened with them?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: They took off.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So they took off
16 with Manson?
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So into
19 the house were you, Krenwinkel is it?
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And Tex.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Just the three
24 of you.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: When you walked
2 in, what’d you see?
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Mr. and Mrs. LaBianca were on
4 the sofa.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Were they bound?
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m pretty sure.
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And very, um, afraid.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So then
10 what happened?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And Tex told, um, Pat and I
12 to go in the kitchen and get knives. And I -- I’ll be
13 honest with you. I don’t know if I heard this or if it
14 has just been said many times, but Manson had been upset
15 that things had gone the way they did at the, um, first
16 night of murders.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSION ER ROBERTS: What’s that?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It was -- he said it was
19 messy and there was too much fear, and he didn’t want
20 the LaBiancas to be fearful. I don’t -- I don’t know if
21 he said that in front of me or not, but that was
22 something that he had tol d Tex.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Before
24 all of this or -- when did you learn of that concern of
25 his? Afterwards? Before or --
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- I -- I can’t tell you
2 any more --
4 INMATE VAN H OUTEN: -- because I’ve heard it too
5 many times, and if at some point I said I knew it
6 before, then I did. Whatever I have said about this is
7 what I stand on.
9 right.
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Okay. So we got the knives,
11 and he said to take Mrs. -- Pat and I got the kitchen
12 knives.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What kind of
14 knives are we talking about?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Kitchen knives.
17 knives are we talking about ? Kitchen knives could be
18 little paring knives. They can be --
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Me -- the kind you cut -- cut
20 meat with.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So like butcher
22 knives?
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Cooking knife. Yes.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Cooking knife.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: But -- butcher
2 knife. Okay.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. Both
5 of you had butcher knives?
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Or what?
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m thinking that we both did
9 --
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- but I was using both of my
12 hands, so I’m not real clear on that.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What do you mean
14 using both of your hands?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, when I was holding Mrs.
16 LaBianca down, I was using both of my hands.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you -- did
18 you get a knife?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m -- I’m thinking I did,
20 but I don’t -- I don’t have a clear memory of that
21 particular knife, but I know Tex handed me a knife.
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I had a knife.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. But later
25 -- that’d be later on. Right?
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2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: When you guys
3 went to the kitchen, you got knives, the LaBiancas were
4 still sitting on their couch? Is that correct?
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And so
7 you come back and do you recal l handing Tex a knife or
8 did Tex have a gun or anything or what?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Tex had a bayonet.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: A bayonet.
11 Okay.
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. He came into the house
13 with a large weapon.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS : All right. Okay
15 then. So --
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- you return to
18 the living room --
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Te -- Tex said to take Mrs.
20 LaBianca into the bedroom, so Pat and I took Mrs.
21 LaBianca into the bedroom, had a pillowcase over her
22 head.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Who did that?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I did.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You recall doing
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1 that?
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I don’t recall, but I
3 think I did. There’s --
4 PRESIDING COMMISSION ER ROBERTS: Wh -- why do you
5 think -- I mean, that’s kind of significant. Why do you
6 think it is that you can’t recall that?
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Because I can’t remember her
8 face.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Why do you think
10 that is that you have d ifficulty remembering her face?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: That I -- because I’m
12 thinking her head was already covered.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you’re --
14 well, you saw her when she was sitting on the couch,
15 right?
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you have a
18 vision of her face.
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, and -- and I very well
20 could’ve put the pillowcase. I’m not trying to
21 exonerate myself.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I’m trying to un
23 -- understand how, um -- cause it’s kind of a
24 significant event when you put some -- a pillowcase over
25 somebody because you know what you’re doing to that
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1 person, right?
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Taking away
4 their humanity.
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Yes.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And you’re
7 reducing them to a sack of something.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Right? And so -
10 -
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Totally vulnerable.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Yes. So I’m
13 interested in if you -- why you can’t remember doing
14 that or seeing that happen, cause that’s a significant
15 event in this, uh, series of murders. That’s, uh -- I’m
16 talking about just the LaBianca murders.
19 you -- do you think it’s -- it’s because the -- the --
20 the horrific nature of what happened there that you’re
21 having -- these are -- you think it’s possible your
22 mind’s blocking this out?
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERT S: Okay. Okay. So
25 you’re not --
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Because --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- discounting
3 that?
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: This is so gruesome to talk
5 about, but I feel like I would have remembered her face
6 and her fear.
8 right. So do you recall where the pillowcase come frame
9 -- came from or whose idea it was to put a pillowcase
10 over her head? You recall any of that?
13 INMATE VAN H OUTEN: But it -- we secured it. I
14 secured it with the lamp cord.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. What’d
16 you do? Yank that off the lamp or --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- was it still
19 attached to the lamp?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The lamp was next to the bed,
21 and I just used it to secure it.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So was she
23 seated on the bed at that time?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: She was, um, more than
25 seated, kind of, like, uh, her back was up, but her legs
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1 were stretched out on the bed. She was leaning against
2 the bed board.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Or the
4 headboard.
7 right. So -- but you recall securing that --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- pillowcase
10 with the la -- and what was the reasoning for that?
11 Why’d you do that?
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: So she couldn’t pull it off.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Well, sh
14 -- was she bound?
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And were hands
17 in front or in back? Do you recall?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I don’t recall. I think
19 in front.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Well,
21 that would make sense because somebody who had it in
22 front could remove it. Somebody who has it in back
23 could not. Okay. All right then. So then what
24 happened?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: So I went to hold her down,
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1 and the sounds of Mr. LaBianca dying came into the
2 bedroom --
4 recall hearing?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It was a guttural sound.
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It was a slow, guttural
8 sound.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And where was
10 that coming from? The living room?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The living room.
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And Mrs. LaBianca jerked up
14 and began to call out -- what are you doing? What are
15 you doing to my husband? And I tried to hold her down.
16 At the same time, Pat took th e knife and went to stab
17 her, and it hit her collarbone and bent --
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- and I ran into the doorway
20 and I said -- we can’t kill her. And Tex came in.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: We can’t or were
22 unable? Cause there’s a difference. You -- you -- you
23 see what I’m saying?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Ah.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You’re saying --
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1 you see what I’m saying?
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I’m saying I
4 can’t kill her or were unable to kill her?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: We meant -- or I meant we
6 weren’t able to.
8 right. So --
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It wasn’t -- it wasn’t saying
10 that --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So
12 backing up a little bit. When you entered in the house,
13 the plan was to kill the people inside?
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. That was
16 clear.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And you
19 were going to participate in that?
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You wanted to
22 participate in that.
25 right. So we’re back to the doorway. You get up an d
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1 you tell Tex -- we’re unable to kill her.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Then what
4 happened?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He came in. At that point, I
6 was just staring off into a den that was across from the
7 bedroom door.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Anybody in that
9 den?
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So it’s vacant.
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It was a vacant space. I
15 just stood there staring at it.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And all’s this
17 happening behind you though? Then -- if you’re back --
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Tex was killing her.
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And then he turned me around,
21 handed me a knife, and said -- do something. And I
22 stabbed Mrs. LaBianca 14 to 16 times in the lower torso.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You remember
24 doing that?
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And why
2 did you do that?
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Because I had to do
4 something.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Well, did
6 you want to do something at that point?
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: At that point, I was nervous
8 beyond anything that I thought was happening. I -- I
9 had thought th at I was measuring myself as someone who
10 could handle the situation, and I wasn’t. And I knew I
11 had to do something.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, there’s a
13 difference between --
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- had to and
16 wanted to. Did you --
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I would say --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- want to do --
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- I wanted. I’ll -- I’ll --
20 I would say I wanted to.
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: To be part of the --
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And what was
24 behind that do you think? What was the core of that
25 want to be part of this?
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: To prove my dedication to the
2 revolution and what I knew would need to be done to, um,
3 have proved myself to Manson.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. To prove
5 yourself to Manson.
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: To the group.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: To the group.
8 Okay.
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: At that point, no one had
10 spoken against the revolution a nd the crimes. Everybody
11 at the group acted as though they were all just as
12 involved as those of us that went.
14 right. All right then. So you said you stabbed Mrs.
15 LaBianca 14 to 16 times. Then what happened?
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Then I began to wipe off
17 fingerprints.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: From what?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, off of the lamp because I
20 had touched it. Um, in the bedroom. I just started
21 wiping off fingerprints. I put all of my attentio n into
22 that.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Was there a lot
24 of blood do you recall?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I don’t recall a lot of
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1 blood.
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And then Tex told me to, um,
4 give him my change of clothes . And I did.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Now, this is --
6 when you say change of clothes, the clothes you were
7 supposed to change into or --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- the clothes
10 you -- you changed and -- into, uh --
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The -- the -- the change of
12 clothes I brought.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: That you
14 brought. Okay. So the extra clothes you brought with
15 you.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: He wanted them.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And then
20 -- then what happened?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And then, um, he told me to
22 change my clothes. And I said to him that my clothes
23 didn’t need to be changed.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Why is that?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: There -- there was nothing on
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1 them. And he said that we were told to change clothes,
2 to go into Mrs. LaBianca’s closet and get some clothes.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What happened
4 with the spare clothes you brought with you?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I gave them to Tex.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I get that. But
7 where did -- what had ha -- did he take them somewhere?
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh, he changed into them.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: He put on the
10 clothes you were going to wear.
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. We --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: He didn’t bring
13 a change of clothes.
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I’m thinking not. I -- I
15 didn’t pay attention.
17 kind of sounds like that, right?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. He -- he took them and
19 wore them.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, Tex is a
23 bigger guy than you or --
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. But we always had sort
25 of like one size fits all. So if there were really big
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1 jeans, I would just tie something around the waist and
2 roll up the cuffs. We -- we --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You already
4 talked about not having possessions.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you went into
9 her closet -- Mrs. LaBianca, the victim. Now, was this
10 -- was the bedroom where she was murdered. Was that her
11 bedroom?
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So her clothes
14 were right there.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And you
17 pick up clothes. What -- anything that stood out to
18 you? Any reason -- just grabbed clothes or what?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I just took a pair of shorts
20 and a top.
22 right. And then what happened?
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Then we left the house. I
24 went through the living room. I saw Mr. LaBianca. I
25 saw the writing on the walls.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. What’d
2 you see written on the walls?
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I didn’t read them. I --
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You just saw
5 that there writing on them.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Did you
8 know who did that?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I assumed Pat.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Why Pat and not
11 Tex?
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Because he was taking a
13 shower.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Oh. Okay. He
15 stopped and took a shower.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. When he
18 was done taking a shower, did you wipe the shower stall
19 down or any of that?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. I didn’t go near the
21 shower.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERT S: Okay.
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I stayed in the bedroom.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All the
25 fingerprints and things you destroyed were the evidence
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1 that would put you at the scene.
4 right.
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Although I have to say I
6 found that to do instead of the kinds of things that
7 Krenwinkel was doing --
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- which was, um, mutilating
10 Mr. LaBianca’s body. After -- after I stabbed Mrs.
11 LaBianca so many times, I focused on the fingerprints.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: On the
13 fingerprints. Okay. So I’m assuming that all this
14 time, uh, Miss LaBianca’s -- what? Laying on the bed or
15 laying on the floor?
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: She’s on the floor --
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- by the door.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You don’t recall
20 seeing a lot of blood.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What’d you guys
23 do with these knives?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, we left out through the
25 kitchen, took milk and cheese. Um, I’m thinking the
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1 weapons were thrown in a reservoir near the area.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you took the
3 weapons with you.
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes, and we hid in the bushes
5 until daylight, and there was a reservoir, and we threw
6 the weapons in the reservoir.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So -- so how
8 long did you wait? So you’re waiting in the bushes --
9 what? For the -- the car to come back and get you?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. Couple hours. We were
11 to hitchhike back to the ranch.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So when
13 they dropped you off and left you, you were on your own.
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: They were going to find
15 another house.
17 right. But you were left on your own.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: To get back to
20 the ranch any way you can.
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. I’m sorry. I just
22 remembered that, um, wh en Manson left, he took a wallet.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Took a wallet.
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. But I didn’t know that
25 at the time. Okay.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Found that out
2 later.
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m -- I’m trying to tell you
4 what --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I get it. We
6 found --
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- is in --
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- that out
9 later?
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: When you say you
12 found out later, did you find out when you got to the
13 ranch or is that through some kind of investigative
14 court process, testimony stuff, or --
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- I can’t remember.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. But you
17 don’t recall him -- seeing him take the wallet.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Was Manson ever
20 in the house with you?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. No. No, not in the
22 house with me.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: No. He was not
24 in the house with you.
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: With me.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Right. That’s
2 what I’m --
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He was in the house, but not
4 with me.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Tex. Tex.
6 Okay. All right. But he was never in the house with
7 you.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And he told you
10 go to in and do whatever Tex told you to do.
13 you said you l ay -- you stayed in the bushes -- what?
14 Outside the house for --
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Couple hours.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- couple hours.
17 Okay.
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Till the sun rose.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Wh --
20 what was the significance of waiting till the sun rises?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: For hitchhiking.
23 the -- that you’d be more obvious if you were out there
24 in the dark trying to hitchhike?
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2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I was --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How far away
4 from the ranch was this place?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, maybe an hour or so.
7 several different hitchhiking forays into different cars
8 or whatever or what?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: One -- one guy picked us up
10 and took us, and he began to get suspicious that we were
11 from, um, Spahn Ranch.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So he
13 was, like, a local?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And -- and Tex said no and
15 had us dropped off in a different area.
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And then we hiked up the Simi
18 Valley or Chatsworth had kind of a mountain -y area, so
19 we hiked in.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Is that
21 where you passed the reservoir?
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. We passed the reservoir
23 before we were hitch -- picked up.
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- I’m not --
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2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I just remember we threw it
3 in a reservoir.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. A body of
5 water.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Threw the
8 -- threw what? Both knives or what? You don’t know
9 what you threw in?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Tex was taking charge of all
11 of that, so --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So Te -- all the
13 weapons were handed over to -- to Tex.
16 right. During your --
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: As I recall.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. As best
19 you can recall. So any discussion between the three of
20 you in your foray back to the ranch about what had
21 happened there?
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you didn’t
24 talk about any of the stabbings, any of the writings on
25 the wall, any of that stuff?
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2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: No discussion
3 whatsoever.
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. When I got to the ranch,
5 I went to the back house. I had, um -- I took off Mrs.
6 LaBianca’s clothes, and there was something else that I
7 don’t remember now what it was. Maybe -- there was a
8 jar of change. And, um --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What jar of
10 change? From the LaBianca’s?
13 had grabbed it or somebody had grabbed it or what?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I didn’t grab it.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Somehow,
16 you -- it came from the house.
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Tex gave me this, and
18 I’m thinking, and I’m sorry I’m not more --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Been a few
20 years.
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: You know --
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Remember as best
23 you can.
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: But there might’ve been a
25 rope or something. I burnt evidence in the fireplace of
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1 the back farmhouse.
3 evidence do you recall burning?
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The clothes that belonged to
5 Mrs. LaBianca. I changed my clothes, and I burnt that.
6 Um --
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Were you
8 instructed to do that or you just did that?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I probably was told to get
10 rid of the evidence.
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m not passing the buck. I
13 just -- that’s how it was.
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And, um, uh, Dianne Lake was
16 there, and I told Dianne Lake what had happened. And --
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: In that rel --
18 rel -- relating to her -- in relation to her, were you
19 happy about what had happened or you --
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- I acted like it was a
21 lot of fun cause everything at the ranch was supposed to
22 be fun. And Dianne had always been held up as the ideal
23 person for a woman to strive to be like, so she
24 testified that I had said that it was fun. I’m not so
25 sure I said that or remembered it, but I very well could
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1 have, so I’ll -- I’ll say it’s true.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You don’t
3 recall. Fair to say you really don’t recall?
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I really don’t, but over the
5 years, um, it -- it -- something I could’ve done. I was
6 -- I was that kind of a young woman that I would’ve said
7 that.
9 right.
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Tex came and saw that I had
11 talked to Dianne and told me privately to never discuss
12 it again, and he was pretty forceful about that. So
13 shortly after that, Pat Krenwinkel and I were sent over
14 to a place called, um -- I don’t remember it now. It
15 was in Box Canyon. It was an empty kind of, uh, ashram
16 place that had been big in the ‘40s or ‘ 30s, and he --
17 we stayed over there for a while.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. How long
19 before you were arrested for this?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Months.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How do you think
22 you got connected to this prosecution? Ho w -- how did
23 they get on to you guys do you think?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, well, the popular thing
25 is that Susan Atkins talked to someone in the County
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1 Jail, but I can’t imagine that there weren’t a lot of
2 indicators from people that were not arrested talk ing or
3 that Linda Kasabian left very shortly after driving the
4 car and left her children with us, but it’s hard to
5 believe that she hadn’t said something, but the -- the
6 overall thing is that Susan told someone in the County
7 Jail.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. With
9 regard to any of the ( inaudible)?
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Yes, uh, when the
11 Commissioner had asked you early on about the
12 criminality prior to going to the ranch, prior to
13 meeting these people, uh, you were talking about, uh --
14 well, I shouldn’t say prior to the ranch, but, uh, you
15 were talking about stealing the cars and -- and you --
16 you made a point of saying that you weren’t doing it,
17 but you were there.
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh, I wasn’t doing the
19 hotwiring, but I was -- I was at one of them.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: But if they had
21 asked you to, you would’ve, right?
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes, if I’d have known how.
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Okay.
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: So it wasn ’t like
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1 you were trying to say you weren’t involved. You were
2 there. You just didn’t happen to have an opportunity to
3 participate cause you didn’t know how.
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, I was being probably
5 too literal.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Okay. And the
7 same with the credit card. I mean, if you had the
8 credit card in your possession, you would’ve used it
9 just the same as the person who did?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: If she’d have said to me --
11 do you want to sign it this time, I would have.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Okay. All right.
13 That’s all.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So we’ve talked
15 about this in the past. Not we literally -- this Panel,
16 but you’ve talked about it to other Panels. How do you
17 feel about that crime today?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I feel absolutely horrible
19 about it, and I have spent most of my life trying to
20 find ways to live with it.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: One of the
22 things we need to talk about or consider is your
23 remorse. I want to go through remorse wit h you, and I
24 have kind of a process I do that -- it just works for
25 me. Might not work for you, but it works for me. I’d
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1 like first to talk about what remorse means. Yes?
2 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Is it
3 possible to take a very short break?
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: We’re right on
5 the cusp. Okay. We’ll do that. I’m -- I’m concerned
6 that we’re -- I’m --
7 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Okay. If you
8 -- if you’re --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: That’s all
10 right. Take a quick reces s. Time is approximately
11 11:25.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Off the record.
13 R E C E S S
14 --oOo--
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Back on the
16 record.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Time is
18 approximately 11:40. All the people previously in the
19 room have returned to the room again. Um, and I was
20 about to start on one of the things that I feel it
21 important to talk about, and we’re going to talk about
22 remorse. And remorse is a very important concept for us
23 to get and for you to get. And my experience has been
24 when I talk to people , often we’re not talking about
25 what we think remorse is, so I like to start out with
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1 let’s talk about what remorse is, and then we’ll talk
2 about how it would apply to you if it does. So I’d like
3 to start this way. If I wer e to open a dictionary and
4 look at the word remorse -- now, you’re a very educated
5 person, so you’ve used dictionaries before in the past,
6 probably thesauruses and all kinds of other stuff.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Um, if I open up
9 a dictionary -- let’s say Webster’s or something -- and
10 I look up the word remorse, I want to know what is
11 remorse? It’s going to give me the key elements of
12 remorse, all right? I’d like to open up your
13 dictionary, so I’m going to open up the Van Houten
14 dictionary and look up the word remorse, and I want the
15 Van Houten dictionary to tell me what are the key
16 elements of remorse for -- for you. Not how they apply
17 to you, not how -- cause we’re going to talk about that.
18 But if you’re looking for remorse, what are the key
19 elements of remorse? And here’s the deal. I ask people
20 if they got remorse. I have a lot of ladies walk
21 through that door, and they all say they got remorse.
22 Some do. Some don’t. You’ve been out here. You’ve
23 been here for a lot of years. You’ve seen people, you
24 know, have no remorse at all, and see people who’ve had
25 a lot of remorse. Um, so just saying you’ve got remorse
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1 doesn’t work for me. Um, same with the guys. I have a
2 lot of guys come in, and they say -- I’ve got remorse.
3 And you start talking to them. They don’t even know
4 what remorse is, much less do they -- so I like to go
5 through this little exercise for me. It helps me get a
6 understanding of where they’re coming from. So let’s
7 first talk about what remorse i s. We’re going to talk
8 about how it applies to you. In your dictionary, what
9 are the key elements of remorse? If you look up -- what
10 key pieces are there to remorse you’d look for?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, a clear understanding of
12 the wrong that was co mmitted.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. An
14 understanding of the wrong.
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: A need to, um, somehow make
16 up for that.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Is that -
18 - is there a word that talks about making up for?
19 You’ve been through 12-step programming --
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I would say contrition.
22 Contrition? Uh, uh, okay.
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Amending.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Amends. Okay.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Making amends.
2 That’s a -- a more common phrase --
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- used here w -
5 - cause most people when they take programming here,
6 they (inaudible) amends. Okay.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Uh, making
9 amends. Now, while we’re on amends, have you taken any
10 12-step programming?
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. The -- so
13 in the 12-step programming, there’s three kinds of
14 amends. Do you recall what those are?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, writing them down.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Uh, no.
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Sharing it.
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And service work.
20 PRESIDING COMM ISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Um, I’m
21 interpreting that to mean direct amends, indirect
22 amends, and living amends.
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh, yes. Okay.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Does that make
25 sense?
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2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERT S: What you just
3 said?
6 normally how I hear that when I talk about it.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay? So
9 there’s those three kinds --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- and that’s
12 important. The --
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Knowing the
15 three kinds cause in a minute we’re going to talk about
16 how this all relates. Okay. So we talked about a mends.
17 All right. So we t -- you said understanding of what
18 the -- what the wrong was, uh, a need to make amends.
19 What else?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I think also a clear
21 understanding of who I was at the time and making sure
22 that those behaviors never surfa ce again. Do you know
23 what I mean? Like part of remorse is making sure that
24 that kind of --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Isn’t that
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1 really like living amends? If you’re living amends,
2 you’re making sure that --
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Mm --
4 PRESIDING CO MMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- you’re not
5 doing it again?
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know. I’ve seen a
7 lot of people do some surface work, and they --
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay, well, I’ll
9 -- yeah, I understand that. Okay.
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- I kind of differentiate
11 that into the --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. If
13 you had to define that --
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- insight part --
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- of it. I think insight is
17 --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Insight?
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. What
21 other pieces? What do you think?
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, trying to apologize.
24 that’s making amends, right?
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: That’s direct
2 amends. Okay. Already have that. There’s some key
3 ones. Now, you’re a real educated person, so you might
4 miss the simple ones.
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I think I’m overthinkin g it.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Maybe. Think
7 simply what a dictionary would say are the key elements
8 of remorse.
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Tremendous regret.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Re --
11 having regret. Okay, that’s -- that is there. Regret.
12 Anything else? Okay. I’ll give you one. Maybe that’ll
13 help you start that way. Um, cause you kind of went in
14 the right way with regret. If you open up Webster’s, do
15 you start off w -- with a g -- a -- a very deep sense of
16 shame?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Would you say
19 having shame?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Sure.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So I’m
22 adding shame, and you’re agreeing. All right.
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I kind of put that in with,
24 uh --
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1 remember we’re talking --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- simply what -
4 -
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- the
7 dictionary would say.
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Okay. Guilt.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Guilt. That’s
10 the other word I’m looking for. Very good. You added
11 that. Okay. All right. So I think we have a pretty
12 good understanding other than one thing often talks
13 about, um -- when you talked about un derstanding what
14 you did, are you talking about what you did to the
15 victims? What you did to -- what -- what are you
16 talking about there?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m talking about the actual
18 taking of the life --
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- and the importance of the
21 life that was taken.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Is there
23 anything -- any relationship to the victim or the
24 victim’s family or anything with regard to that?
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSI ONER ROBERTS: Okay.
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: That responsibility for those
3 that loved the victims.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: W -- well, you
5 were talking about having an understanding of that, and
6 to get an understanding of that, there’s usually a word
7 used that, um, discusses what that having a
8 understanding is and how you gain that understanding.
9 Empathy? You know the word empathy?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh, sure.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You’re an
12 educated woman, so --
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- empathy.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay? I -- I’m
17 -- I’m kind of making a subset of the very first one you
18 offered, cause I think to get a clear understanding of
19 what you did, you h ave to have empathy for the victim.
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Right.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Understanding
22 what --
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And -- and the effect it had
24 on all of those who --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Right.
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- loved them, my own family
2 --
4 right.
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- the community.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. I
7 think we have a pretty good understanding. So we said
8 it has to have understanding of what w as done and having
9 empathy as a result of that. Um, you talked about, um,
10 making amends. We talked about the three kinds of
11 amends. We talked about -- you said having insight to
12 the -- to the -- what happened there. Regret. I added
13 shame, and you adde d guilt. I think that’s pretty good
14 base for remorse. Huh. That’s remorse. Do you have
15 remorse for this crime?
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How do I know
18 that beyond the words? So far --
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I --
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Hold on. Hold
21 on. Let me finish.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So far, we’ve
24 just been talking words. But again, everybody who walks
25 through that door says they got remorse, and some do,
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1 some don’t. What can I look to in your record?
2 Something I can look at. It’s not words coming out of
3 your mouth, um, that suggests, illustrates, or
4 demonstrates that you have remorse. What is there in
5 the record that shows deeds or whatever it is that
6 proves that beyond just the words coming out of your
7 mouth?
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, the documentation of how
9 I live my life.
11 let’s talk about what that means. Okay. What -- what I
12 look to that would demonstrate you have remorse -- what
13 -- point to one thing to start off with.
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I would say my activity
15 in the, um, Victim Offender Education Group.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And so I
17 guess what’s important there is why do you do that?
18 Remember -- is that part of your -- you’re saying it’s
19 part of your remorse, so it should be one of these
20 things. I should be able to connect the dots or you
21 should be able to connect the dots to one -- to one or
22 more of these things. Why do you do that? Is there
23 something in here that makes you do that?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Being part of that group --
25 and right now, I’m facilitating it -- but being part of
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1 that group, um -- the way the curriculum is set up --
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- it’s designed to get
4 really in touch with the damage done to, um, those that
5 loved Rosemary and Leno LaBianca.
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It, um --
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: But I’m looking
9 for what’s the motivation with regard to your -- we’re
10 trying to relate to --
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- (inaudible )
13 remorse.
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh, oh. All that I have done
15 is how I have learned to live with myself.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So is that part
17 of, like, your living amends or something?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- I -- honestly, I
21 dedicate my life in here to living amends. It’s how --
22 it’s how I figured out I live with what I did.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Other than that
24 one thing we mentioned, is there something else you can
25 point to that suggests --
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2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- those traits
3 or demonstrates you have remorse?
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m part of the Executive
5 Body of the Inmate Activities Group --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How’s it --
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- Committee.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How’s that
9 relate to remorse?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And, um --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Wait, wait,
12 wait, wait. How does that relate to remorse?
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I do, um, service work for
14 the women on the yard.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: How does that
16 relate to remorse? If you’re saying this is part of
17 your remorse, you got to draw back to one of these
18 answers we said. It --
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You’re saying
21 remorse --
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Living -- that’s my living
23 amends.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So your living
25 amends. Okay.
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And I tutor at Chaffey
2 College. I help women get educated because I believe
3 that I am helping them gain a sense of independence, and
4 I think that’s very important, so it’s part of m y
5 remorse to create less victims by helping other women
6 leave here --
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So --
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- a little more healed.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- you’ve used,
10 um -- d -- do you do that out of a sense of gu ilt or
11 sense of shame for what you did? Is that part of it?
12 Do you do that as a result of that? Do you --
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- think that’s
15 motivating part of it?
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. I think most of what I
17 do is out of guilt for what I’ve done.
19 right.
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: But I love doing it. The --
21 I’m having a hard time answering because I --
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It’s -- it’s my purpose --
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- to be able to do all that.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So there’s just
2 a couple more questions that kind of round this out.
3 First of all, what do you take responsi bility for?
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I take responsibility for the
5 entire crime. I take responsibility going back to
6 Manson being able to do what he did to all of us. I
7 allowed it.
9 right.
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I take responsibility for
11 Mrs. LaBianca, Mr. LaBianca.
13 have you learned about yourself and about the -- you
14 that have enabled you to develop skill sets, coping
15 mechanisms, or tool s to make sure that you’re never
16 going to be involved in something like this again? What
17 -- what’ve you learned about you that needed to be
18 addressed? And then tell me what you’ve got to address
19 that. Some people talk about character defects. Some
20 people talk about any number of thin gs. But I’m looking
21 for what you’ve learned about yourself that’s -- cause
22 if you don’t know about yourself, then you can’t develop
23 the right tools to abate that, right?
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1 what’ve you learned about yourself, and then tell me
2 what tools you’ve developed to abate that for any future
3 similar kind of responses .
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Well, I learned that I was
5 weak in character. I was easy to give over my belief
6 system to someone else. That I so ught peer attention
7 and acceptance more than I did my own foundation. That
8 I looked to men for my value, and I didn’t speak up. I
9 avoided any kind of conflicts.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, you
11 actually looked to women for your value. We talke d
12 about that.
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: With, um, Catherine?
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Yeah.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (inaudible)?
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What’s that say
19 about your self esteem?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I didn’t have any.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Low self esteem.
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It was -- it was very, very,
23 very low.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You think that’s
25 a key component of how you became the pe rson that was
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1 able to participate in this stuff --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- and do this
4 stuff?
7 have you learned to address your low self esteem?
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’ve taken lots of therapy.
9 And different ones taught me different things. One of
10 the ones that I thought was so important was in the, um,
11 early ‘90s with Dr. Ponnas (phonetic) . And she worked
12 with me quite a bit on what was going on with me at the
13 time that I became so complacent to Manson. I over the
14 years have addressed the things that made me second
15 guess myself. And I live in a environment where
16 deferring to authority is sort of how you make it, and
17 so I’ve had to deal with t hat and not let myself defer
18 inside myself. There’s one thing to defer --
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- to an officer that might
21 not be hearing what I’m saying, and at the same time,
22 holding on to my own value.
23 PRESIDING CO MMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. I’m
24 looking for things that have changed. When you talk
25 about low self esteem, it’s a self perception.
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2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. It’s
3 tru -- truly not -- you allow others to do that. So
4 it’s self perception ( inaudible).
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What have you
7 done to change your low self esteem?
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’ve educated myself. I have
9 --
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Is that
11 important?
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Was that a major
14 tool that you used to change your low self esteem?
17 right.
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Yeah. I, um, learned
19 to really listen to what people are saying and, um,
20 measure it out within my own gauge of what’s acceptable
21 or not. Also when, um, I began to emerge out of Manson,
22 I, uh, made a commitment to myself, particularly when
23 they abolished the death penalty, that I c ould recreate
24 a life for myself where I would not harm others
25 deliberately. And, um, I was young, so I’ve hurt
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1 people, but not intentionally. So I think that that has
2 helped me with my esteem, that I deal with people
3 directly. I’m as forthright as I can be. That I, um,
4 feel good about who I am because of the service work.
5 For a long time, it was hard to have good self esteem
6 knowing what I had done.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So going back to
8 remorse. Obviously, you didn’t have remorse then, a nd
9 obviously, you didn’t have remorse for a while when I
10 look at your antics during the trial --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- and so forth.
13 When do you think you started to gain remorse for this
14 crime (inaudible)?
15 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: About two or three years away
16 from Manson. And I think it was happening as a process.
17 The prison was, um -- the prison administration was very
18 careful about who came to visit, and, um, over time --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Starting about
20 ’80, ’81. Is that what were talking?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. Like, ’73 or 4. I -- I
22 was in -- uh, you know, my first conviction.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Right. Right.
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: So back in the early ‘70s.
25 And then when they, uh -- Catherine Share and Mary
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1 Brunner got arrested and they put them in the same
2 housing block that I was in, and at that point, they
3 came talking that language, and I realized that I wasn’t
4 in that place with them. And that helped kind of get me
5 on a different path that I knew I was going to have to
6 answer for what had happened, that there would be no
7 revolution, and I began to try to figure out how I was
8 going to live with what I had done. And there were
9 many, many years where shame and guilt were my
10 controlling decision makers, which were --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: When did you
12 start --
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- not good.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- giving back?
15 Doing amends -- making amends? When did you start doing
16 that?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I would say probably -- I’m
18 thinking. I -- I always got involved, but to
19 consciously not just be a participant in a group, but
20 to, um, take on a more serious role of service work --
21 probably, mm, mid ‘80s.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. All ri ght
23 then.
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: All right. So,
25 um, let’s talk about what you’ve been doing since you’ve
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1 been in prison. Uh, most of the stuff or pretty much
2 all of it’s been covered before since you’ve been here
3 so many times, so I’ll just kin d of go over some of it
4 rather quickly since it’s already part of the record.
5 Uh, you’ve got yourself a bachelor’s degree, a master’s
6 degree, a counseling, uh, or a tutor certification. Uh,
7 you’ve worked at various jobs in the past. Uh, most
8 recently looks like what you do mostly is tutoring and -
9 - or teaching assistance. Is that correct?
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Okay. And then I
12 looked at, uh, your current assignment history. Looks
13 like you’re currently in VOEG or V -O-E -- V-O-E-G, the
14 Victim Offender Education Group. You mentioned that.
15 Uh, you were in Actors Gang for a little while, but, uh,
16 did you -- oh, no. You’re back in there. Looked like
17 you might’ve been out of it after you hurt your knee or
18 something?
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Okay. But you’re
21 back in the Actors Gang now? Is that correct?
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Right. You’re
24 still doing tutoring. Uh, you completed a reentry
25 program, uh, j ust, uh, earlier this -- or last month it
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1 looks like. Um, and, you know, in the past, you’ve
2 taken a lot of stuff. Uh, just real quick. Uh, Victim
3 Awareness, uh, Lifers Group, uh, White Bison, uh, uh, AA
4 or, uh, Alcoholics Anonymous, but then you’re sti ll
5 doing that, correctly -- uh, correct?
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. It’s my, um -- what I
7 try to do it always have a 12 -step group that I attend,
8 and, um, the AA/NA one is at night, and so for a while,
9 I was doing one that was called Emotions Anonymous.
10 It’s sanctioned by AA. But it’s all basically the 12
11 step, and now, um, I’m doing the White Bison, but they -
12 - they rely on the AA Big Book. So --
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Okay.
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- for me, it’s just like a
15 home group 12 step.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Are you Native
17 American?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. They’re -- they allow
19 others in.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, it depends
21 where you’re at. On the men’s side , some they don’t.
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. CIW doesn’t have a lot
23 of the separation.
25 does, and, uh --
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2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- in prison,
3 you had to be Native American.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERT S: Had to have
6 established DNA back to your --
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- tribe.
11 tribe.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: And it also looks
15 like you’ve been doing a lot of personal counseling over
16 the years as well. Is that correct?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. When I can.
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Um, of the
19 various self hel -- self help that you’ve taken, what do
20 you think has been the most meaningful for you?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I kind of like the
22 combination of them all. Like the, um, Actors Gang
23 Prison Project -- it -- it isn’t about acting, but
24 accessing emotions and learning how to, uh, read
25 yourself and, um, I find that very beneficial. And the
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1 Victim Offender Group is, um -- the curriculum is
2 amazing and very helpful. And, um, even as a
3 facilitator, the way it’s set up -- that people share
4 their, uh, crimes and st ories -- it’s s -- so easy to
5 identify and continually gain insight. So I would -- I
6 would say those two right now are the ones that I g et a
7 lot out of. And then I also get a lot out of being part
8 of the, um, Inmate Advisory Council. We’re working on,
9 um, suicide prevention because CIW has had an
10 overwhelming amount of suicides over the years, and
11 that’s wor -- I’m working with, um, psychologists on how
12 we can make CIW more of a community, and I find that
13 extremely rewarding.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERA NTZ: Okay. Um, you --
15 you’re familiar with the 12 steps, correct?
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: And you know
18 about, uh, character defects. Is that correct?
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: And you had
21 mentioned one of them when you were talking to, uh, the
22 Commissioner here. You mentioned low self esteem.
23 Clearly that was a major character defect you had that
24 probably, if not most significantly, uh, allowed you to
25 be manipulated as such -- as you were in doing what you
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1 did. What other character defects did you have back at
2 that time?
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I was really reliant on
4 others. I think that’s a character defect. They all
5 sort of fall under low self esteem to me. They’re kind
6 of, you know.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: You were somebody
8 who was a follower?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Definitely a follower. And,
10 um, easy to surrender. Not, um -- I’m trying to -- not
11 acknowledge my own value. I hid who I was. I was, uh,
12 you know, afraid to step up, too eager to volunteer.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Those all do kind
14 of relate to some form of self -esteem issue, wouldn’t
15 you say?
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. No boundaries.
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Um, did you have
18 a type of disregard f or the consequences of your
19 actions? Like, you didn’t think about --
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No, I didn’t think about
21 them. And if they came, then that was part of what
22 happens.
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Let me ask you
24 something a little bit differen t. Um, you talk about
25 how hard it is to live with what you’ve done, correct?
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2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: And you became
3 emotional at times when you talked about it. Uh, for --
4 and -- and that’s not uncommon, and -- and it’s a lso not
5 uncommon to see a lot of people in -- in dealing with
6 what they have done to turn to something to help them,
7 like substance abuse. And you have not done that.
8 There’s no indication of that in prison. Um, and -- and
9 that seems a little surprising , especially given your
10 history of, you know, substance abuse prior to being
11 arrested and -- and your comment that you, you know, had
12 an addictive -type personality. How has it been that
13 you’ve been able to avoid return to substance abuse to
14 deal with whatever pain and feelings you had after
15 recognizing what you had done and the gravity of that?
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, when I was first here,
17 I took a LSD trip on Death Row. And then, um, in 1976,
18 I was, uh -- had marijuana. I smoked marijuana. So it
19 wasn’t like something -- I -- I -- I was young and --
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Sure. Now, but
21 that’s 40 years plus ago, so --
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: -- so w -- was
24 the marijuana (inaudible) at the time?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- huh?
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1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Was the marijuana
2 the last substance you used --
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: -- in prison?
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: So for 40-plus
7 years, you’ve avoided it. How have you been able to do
8 that?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It’s a different world in
10 here with drugs, and I also -- as the years passed, I
11 knew what that -- I -- I used others at first to stay
12 clean. And I felt that it would just break my mo m’s
13 heart if I had a dirty UA. I used her a lot. And then
14 when I became more aware of my actions, I knew that that
15 was something that would really be disrespectful of the
16 lives that were lost because of the substance abuse.
17 And, um, I just turned to the pe -- I’ve been very
18 fortunate to have people that love me a great deal, and
19 I’ve turned to them and the community in visiting, and
20 then in ’86, I belonged to AA. My dad was a member of
21 AA. So --
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: All right. You
23 made a comment about the drugs being a whole different
24 world in here. What do you mean by that?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, it’s expensive. It’s a
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1 different kind of people that mess around in the drug
2 world in here.
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Well, it’s
4 readily available should you choose --
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: -- to get it.
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: It’s more than -- and even
8 today. Yes.
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: All right. Well,
10 if we were to let you out, how do we know you’re not
11 going to return to substance abuse to deal with the
12 stressors and everything that would occur once you’re
13 out of prison?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’ve already developed a
15 lifestyle and a pattern where that’s not part of my
16 world. You know. And I -- and I know they’ll be
17 alcohol around and all of that, but I have my 12 steps
18 that I’ve been practicing adamantly. I have full
19 intention of finding a home group, a sponsor, spiritual
20 advisor, you know. I -- I take all of that very
21 seriously. Um, one wo man, uh, is, uh, Marilyn -- I
22 think her name’s Marilyn Montenegro -- offers that there
23 can be counseling, too. I’ll have my agent, you know.
24 My intention is to maintain the lifestyle that I have
25 now when I’m free. I don’t plan on putting myself
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1 around a lot of people that are involved in, uh, drugs
2 or excessive drinking for that matter.
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Do you still
4 sometimes get the urge to use drugs of any kind?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. Not at all.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: And if you were
7 to get such an urge, how would you deal with it?
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: First thing I would do is
9 call my sponsor, who I know I’ll find within the week or
10 two. I would also, um, uh, talk to friends that are
11 sober people and let them know. And, u m, I hope I’ll
12 have a spiritual advisor, and I would turn to all the
13 people that know me. We’ve established true
14 relationships where I could tell them that, and they
15 would help me. I also know that the triggers -- you
16 know -- there’s indicators. Like, f or me, if something
17 happens, like, say at 10 o’clock in the morning, that’s
18 a little uncomfortable with somebody and I’m still
19 thinking about it at 2 o’clock, I know that I have to go
20 address that. I know how stressors begin to build in
21 somebody. So I’ve learned to take care of things as
22 quickly as I can when they come up so that I don’t have
23 a lot of internal dialogue going on.
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Well, let me ask
25 you something else. Um, you can look back at, uh, all
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1 these various choices th at you made that resulted in
2 what happened on the i -- night of August 10th, correct?
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: All right. If
5 someone said to you -- I built a time machine, and I
6 could go back and you could make one choice d ifferent,
7 but only one, what would that choice be?
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Easy. I would go back to
9 Manhattan Beach, I would get a job at TRW, and I would
10 live under my father’s house, his condo.
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: So leaving --
12 leaving the house in Manhattan Beach -- that was the --
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The beginning. Actually,
14 using the drugs in June -- I mean, January, but I
15 could’ve -- if I’d have stayed there, I could’ve gotten
16 intervention, so I -- I think. Yeah.
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POM ERANTZ: All right. And
18 let me ask you something a little bit different. If you
19 were told you could go back and change one thing, and
20 one thing only that someone else did, what would that
21 be?
22 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: That dad stay in the house.
23 DEPUTY COMMI SSIONER POMERANTZ: Sorry?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: That my dad stay in the
25 house. That he not leave.
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1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Okay. All right.
2 So let me ask you, uh -- we’re talking about Parole
3 Plans. Um, you -- you’ve talked a little bit at the
4 beginning about the fact you have a Relapse Prevention
5 Plan in the file, which we’ll look at. Um, you have
6 acceptance letters from A New Way of Life and Roxie
7 Rose, uh, Transitional Housing program. Uh, which is
8 your first choice of those two?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Roxie Rose.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Why is that one
11 your first choice?
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, the woman that owns it
13 was a lieutenant here, and I worked under her, and, um,
14 she became a parole agent, and I like that idea. She
15 runs a transitional living where I would be able to, um,
16 live and work with women who are, uh, Iraqi vets with
17 PTSD and, um, homeless women. I’d be able to use my
18 skills that I’ve gotten in the prison to, uh, pay for my
19 rent. I like the idea that she knows me, a nd I know
20 her, and that she was an agent. So I -- I would -- I
21 would like that first.
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: You gave us a --
23 a copy of a recent letter from August 15 th of this year
24 from her, uh, which is Exhibit 1. And she mentions that
25 she had known you for a long time and -- and unlike a
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1 lot of the transitional housing programs, it doesn’t
2 mention that it’s not just for parolees. It’s also for
3 veterans and homeless. So it’s a little bit different
4 of a program. Um, how long do you anticipa te living
5 there?
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I believe I can stay up to
7 three years, and I would stay as long as it was, um --
8 my agent wanted me to, I wanted to. You know, I’m --
9 I’m not in a hurry. I could stay all three years.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Okay. And -- and
11 I did notice there’s a lot of, uh, support letters in
12 the file. In fact, it looked like it was over 100. Uh,
13 the vast majority of them from people who knew you, you
14 know -- well, a lot of them from people who knew you
15 long before any of this stuff happened, and -- and they
16 -- they’ve known you all these years, and then people
17 that work with you in the prison, met you in prison, uh,
18 former inmates, past and current, and -- and the one
19 thing I did happen to notice -- there was a recurren t
20 theme in all of these letters talking about the change
21 that they’ve witnesse d in you over the years and how
22 helpful that you are now based upon, you know, your
23 behavior and how you’re helping everybody. It fits in
24 what you’ve been talking to us about h ere today. And --
25 and I did notice that was a -- a very common theme
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1 amongst the -- the dozens and dozens and dozens of
2 letters that I saw in the file. Uh, you have multiple
3 job offers in the letters I saw in there. Uh, your
4 brother wrote a letter. You r niece, uh, your prior
5 attorney. There’s a lot of positive staff chronos in
6 the file as well. Uh, we did receive as one could
7 imagine thousands and thousands -- tens of thousands of
8 opposition letters. There are many letters written
9 specifically talkin g about the situation. Others much
10 more general. There’s thousands and thousands. I think
11 actually more than 40,000. A petition -- apparently,
12 uh, online petition of some sort that -- where people
13 from all over the world have ex -- expressed an
14 opposition to the parole. Uh, what do you -- how do you
15 feel about, you know, people around the whole entire
16 planet saying -- never let this monster out? How does
17 that make you feel?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Sad that --
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Is that stress ful
20 for you?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, sure. It’s stressful.
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: How do you -- how
23 do you deal with that?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I focus on the people that
25 love me and know that I can’t change other people and
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1 that there will always be people that have a set idea of
2 who I am. And, um, they haven’t gotten to know me.
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Cause obviously,
4 you know, given your notoriety, um, you know, there’s
5 always some stigma for anybody who served time in
6 prison, but fo r someone like you, you know, it’s a
7 thousandfold. Right?
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: And -- and so
10 anyone who would recognize you or recognize your name,
11 you know, obviously, the first thing they’re going to
12 think about is the Manson killings. Right? And then
13 that’s going to --
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Well --
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: -- follow you the
16 rest of your life, so how do you --
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, it --
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: -- how are you
19 going to deal with that?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I was -- I was okay when I
21 was out on bail, you know? I mean, I know it was the
22 ‘70s and not the 2000s, but I was able to live and, you
23 know. I wasn’t recognized. And I was the, um -- I had
24 a person who did an ident ity theft of me and got all
25 kinds of cards and created a whole life, and she’s
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1 probably in the federal prison right now. So, you know,
2 I thought wow. She used my name and nobody reacted to
3 it. So I get what you’re saying, but I think that
4 there’s the po ssibility of it not being quite that.
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Well, I -- I -- I
6 wouldn’t be so sure.
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: But I can assure
9 you that, you know, given the internet and everything,
10 probably you -- you have limited familiarity with that
11 being in prison.
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Right. I don’t factor that
13 in.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Yeah. If -- if -
15 - if someone were to type your name in, your picture --
16 well --
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: That’s true.
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Later today, your
19 picture from this morning will be there.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: So there’s no
22 anonymity -- anonymity anymore.
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Whereas 1971,
25 ’73, no comparison. So, you know -- and the reason I
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1 ask these things is because clearly, it’s going to be a
2 stressful situation if you get out of prison. There’s -
3 - there’s people who are going to hat e you just because
4 of what you were involved in, and the fact that you
5 spent 40 years in prison -- it’s irrelevant to them.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Okay? And you
8 have to deal with that. However you do, that’s how you
9 do. But obviously, one has to have concerns as to
10 whether you would return to, you know, substance abuse
11 as a result (inaudible). That’s why I’m asking you .
12 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh. Yeah. I would turn to
13 my friends and my agent, and if it got too difficult, I
14 would, um, work something out with the agent. You know,
15 if the world wouldn’t accept me, that’d be something I’d
16 have to come to terms with.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, a piece
18 of the world’s never going to accept you . There’s a
19 piece of the world that’s never --
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- going to
22 accept you.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You understand
2 that?
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: And I also looked
5 at -- it did look like there was, uh -- of the people
6 that wrote support letters, there was a number of them
7 that looked like they would provide you with a place to
8 live as well after you finished whatever time in the
9 transitional housing program, uh, that you chose to, uh,
10 take advantage of. Is that correct?
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: All right.
13 Commissioner?
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Just want
15 to be clear. So your p lans go to go this, uh,
16 transitional home run by this former lieutenant/parole
17 agent, uh, person who knows you. You said you got three
18 years. What after that? What’s the long -term plan?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I have always felt that I
20 would live with a friend, that I would not be able to
21 afford at my age to rent singly. My hope is that I can,
22 um, continue in the field of education. I -- I’m
23 talking about monetarily now. And, um, I plan on
24 becoming a grant writer where I can use my prison
25 experience t o help write grants for some of the --
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2 grants?
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Probably grants for, um,
4 programs that want to come in and contribute with
5 rehabilitation in the prison system. And, um, I plan on
6 just living out my days if possible going to a museum,
7 going and looking at the ocean. Financially, I’ll do
8 what I can and help out. I’ve lived with little, and I
9 hope to be able to be content with little because as a
10 senior leaving prison with no work history, I’m going to
11 be living humbly.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: No Social
13 Security. No --
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- retirement
16 plan.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Right. So you
19 got to be doin g something (inaudible).
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: And I ha -- yeah. And, um,
21 the jobs and the means I have of supporting myself, I
22 can do as long as I have my mind.
24 Let’s finish up the clinician’s report. You got nothing
25 new. Used at the last hearing. I’m going to pick up
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1 where we kind of left off in the process o f going
2 through this hearing. The d octor starts a section
3 called Clinical Assessment. There speaks to, uh, prior
4 psychologic -- psychological examina tions of you. I do
5 see that you’ve been seen for a number of years. Since
6 2006 are the ones listed. Uh, traveling from 2006
7 forward, uh, in 2006, you saw Dr. Smith. Doctor opined
8 that you had a low risk, uh, for future violence there.
9 2007, you were seen by the person who wrote this, which
10 is Dr. Croft, right?
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you’ve seen
13 Dr. Croft a couple of times.
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes, I have.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And Dr. Croft,
16 uh, indicated that, uh -- when the doctor saw you in
17 2007, uh, felt that you, uh, represented a low risk --
18 future risk for violence. 2010, you were seen by Dr.
19 Carrera. Did a Comprehensive Risk Assessment. Dr.
20 Carrera also found you to be a low risk for future
21 violence in the community. 2013, Dr. Larmer did a
22 subsequent Risk Assessment. Said there doesn’t appear
23 to be any changes, so saying you’re still a low risk.
24 There was nothing that aggravated or mitigated that to
25 even further. And then we come to the current Risk
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1 Assessment. Doctor speaks of mental status at the time
2 of the examination. Nothing unique there. Doctor
3 talked about substance abuse, uh, the history of with
4 you, and we talked about that today. And nothing I see
5 other than the doctor said you meet the criteria for
6 other hallucinogenic, uh, use disorder, severe, uh,
7 cannabis use disorder, severe, and stimulated -related
8 disorder, moderate. Then doctor talked about major
9 mental disorder and personality disorders. Nothing in
10 the major mental disorder. And the doctor concluded
11 that the -- it was the doctor’s opinion that you do not
12 warrant a diagnosis of a personality disorder. Then the
13 doctor talked about institutional adjustment. Usually
14 talks about 115s, those kind of things, 128As,
15 programming, so forth. Talks about, you know, the one
16 115 in all these years, and talks mostly about your
17 education and programming. Parole Plans. When you
18 talked to the doctor back in 2016, you were talking
19 about Roxie Rose Transitional Treatment Facility in San
20 Bernardino, and we talked about that. Nothing new
21 there. Doctor then speaks to a tool that the doctor
22 used, HR20, Version 3. Main tool we have them use. Um,
23 doctor said that you have historical factors that
24 aggravate, and those include, uh, uh, your experiences
25 of prenatal abandonment, your poor material -- uh,
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1 maternal relationships, your substance abuse, your
2 association with negative peers, and your commission of
3 the Life Crime offense are all risk factors. They’re in
4 the historical domain. Things you can’t change. Doctor
5 says that you have exhibited prosocial behaviors
6 throughout most of your imprisonment. Substance abuse
7 and negative peer associations seem less relevant risk
8 factors today than they presented at the time of the
9 imprisonment. Doctor also spoke of another tool used,
10 the PCLR. PCLR is pretty important to us. Uh, it
11 measures psychopathy. And the doctor says using that
12 tool, you scored below the mean and well below the
13 cutoff threshold commonly used to identify dissocial or
14 pathologic personalities. Very important for us to know
15 that we’re not talking to a psychopath. And the
16 doctor’s trained at recognizing that. We aren’t
17 necessarily, so we rely upon that. Then the doctor
18 talks about analysis of, uh, clinical factors. S peaks
19 to the Life Crime. You already said that, uh, you had
20 one typo -- typologic -- typographical error -- there we
21 go -- that you wanted to correct, and we did that. Then
22 there is a section there that I kind of wanted to brief
23 with you because the Gove rnor had issues with it, and
24 it’s the section that says you cited a lack of real
25 consequences for your misbehavior growing up. Feelings
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1 of abandonment and your father. We talked about that
2 following your parents’ divorce. Your resentment and
3 anger toward your mother, trau -- trauma of your
4 abortion, uh, and the, uh, drug addiction. You believed
5 that these made you, uh, vulnerable to the cult led by
6 Manson. This -- this lack of real consequences is
7 quoted by the Governor as a concern. What did you mean
8 by that? And if you were to try to clarify that for the
9 Governor, if -- what would you say to that? One of the
10 -- one of the issues the Governor said was -- he cited
11 to that paragraph. I’m not -- I don’t know if you read
12 this --
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: That I -- I had lack of con -
14 -
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Rea -- lack of
16 real consequences for your misbehavior growing up. How
17 did that play into -- you said that, and so how did that
18 play into, uh, your vulnerability?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Pre -- pre-Manson?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh. Oh.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: In your
23 childhood it would sound like.
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Yeah. I was talking
25 about my mother’s rearing style, and other kids had, um,
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1 curfews, and they had consequences. If you -- that --
2 that -- I was talking about consequences in that vein.
3 If you stay out to 11, you’re going to be grounded for 3
4 weeks. My mom would say -- I don’t have to do that
5 because you will never let me down. An d so I felt that
6 I always had to anticipate what her expectation was of
7 me. So that’s -- that’s what I meant by the
8 consequences -- that I didn’t have a measured set of
9 rules that my other friends did.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Again,
11 I’m just trying -- these are things cited to you --
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- by other
14 people that were issues.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Some of these
17 things you talked with the last Panel a bout, but --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- I want to get
20 them on the record. You said that you were totally
21 compromised and easily swayed and gullible. Um, why do
22 you think that was? Why do you think you were gullible,
23 easily swayed, and easily compromised or totally
24 compromised?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: At the -- um, when I was, uh
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1 --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Said this --
3 this paragraph starts off -- when asked to describe how
4 she was li -- what you were like prior to imprisonment,
5 you --
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- said totally
8 unconscious --
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- uncomfortable
11 in my own skin, unable to hold my (inaudible) --
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Basically I was
14 totally c -- uh, compromised and easily swayed and
15 gullible. Why do you think that was?
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I think it was because I had,
17 um, been so devastated by the, um, loss of the baby tha t
18 I just gave up and just started -- first I did the SRF
19 hoping I’d get Bobby back. Went back to the drug
20 community, hung out, and very quickly fell into the, uh,
21 cult -- the group -- the group.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Um, next
23 paragraph. Doctor talks about -- you actually used the
24 term living a life of amending, and we talked about
25 living amends.
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2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I already took
3 you there, so I’m good with that. Talked about when you
4 became your own pe rson. I use the term -- when did you
5 start living, uh -- when did you start feeling ame --
6 um, remorse? You know --
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- a sense.
9 Cause you certainly didn’t initially. And you said
10 three years af ter the courtroom hearing which kind of co
11 -- coincided with what you told me today. Um, the
12 doctor felt you se -- accepted responsibility for your
13 life term offense, you expressed remorse for your
14 misconduct, and your remorse seemed sincere. We went
15 through that whole remorse thing. Um, I got to get a
16 sense of it, too. I -- I know my partner does also.
17 Doctor says you cited factors including dysfunctional
18 relationships with your mother, your feelings of
19 abandonment with your father, your feelings of
20 alienation, the trauma of your abortion, your, um,
21 modest coping skills, and your substance abuse and your
22 drug addiction, uh, that impacted your vulnerability to
23 crime. Doctor says you evidence d an understanding of
24 how your propensities towards addiction and dependence
25 on others led to your, uh -- led to you to gravitate
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1 towards the cult. And we talked about the addictive
2 personality and so forth, and you talked about that at
3 the last hearing. Doctor talks about youthful offender.
4 Again, you were 19 yea rs old. Described, uh,
5 dysfunctional upbringing, the abandonment (inaudible),
6 and this -- thus the -- the drug abuse and, uh,
7 promiscuity and associated with nonconforming peers.
8 Doctor says that you have developed greater maturity,
9 independence, and res ponsibility during your
10 imprisonment and you continue to participate in self-
11 help programs to further promote your ability to lead a
12 prosocial life. The doctor also looked at, uh, elderly,
13 and I told you we’re going to look at those things, too.
14 And doctor says you were 66 years old then. You’re 68
15 now?
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And, uh,
18 you’ve been incarcerated then 36 years. We’re talking
19 about 38 years now about.
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Well, I’ve been incarcerated
21 -- my -- my c -- new commitment is 38, so --
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Yeah, okay.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you want to
25 add years --
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2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- onto that?
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Well, I’ve been -- except for
4 the six months, you know, I’ve been incarcerated --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: For --
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- since 20 about -- well --
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So about forty-
8 what years?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Forty-eight maybe.
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Minus a period of time.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Doc -- doctor
13 says age, maturation, length of incarceration, and
14 health-related issues of aging , uh, in conceptualizing
15 your risk factor for violence were considered. And
16 doctor says your age, maturity, and active participation
17 in self-help programs mitigate your risk, and the
18 positive programming mitigates your risk. Doctor says
19 your advanced age and physical limitations which
20 accompany, uh, aging are noted and lower your risk for
21 violent recidivism. Says you’re also less physically
22 fit at your age. Let me ask you about this thing going
23 on with your -- your legs. I see you had crutches at
24 the last hearing. What’s the -- your understanding of
25 the long-term prognosis for your knee and -- and stuff
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1 with that leg?
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m hoping that it will be
3 mended in -- within a month. I slipped on water in the
4 hall, and I broke my kneecap in h alf, and it’s just --
5 they have me in a --
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- brace.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- how long have
9 you been in that?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Since, uh, the beginning of
11 August.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSION ER ROBERTS: (inaudible).
13 Were you -- had crutches at the last hearing?
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Ambulated on
16 your own at the last hearing.
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Oh, yeah.
19 right. So this is in your mind a temporary condition.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Doctor
22 says that you were overall a low risk for future
23 violence. Okay. Again, this is not news. This is all
24 out of the last hearing. Okay th en. Any clarifying
25 questions of the Panel?
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1 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Thank you,
2 Commissioner Roberts. Yes, I do. Uh, in this hearing,
3 there was less talk about Mrs. LaBianca being dead when
4 the inmate already stabbed her. But I do have a
5 question about the inmate’s feeling about that. And my
6 question is that assuming that Mrs. LaBianca was in fact
7 already dead at the time the inmate stabbed her, does
8 the inmate believe that that makes her less responsible
9 for the murder?
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONE R ROBERTS: I think that’s a
11 pretty clear question. You think stabbing what you
12 believed to have been, uh, an already -deceased person --
13 do you think that makes you less responsible?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: When I was younger, I did,
15 but not now. I understan d now that --
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So is now today
17 or is now something that you learned or got appreciation
18 for before today?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Way before today.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: About when did
21 you start taking full responsibi lity then? Or full
22 responsibility for it? See what I’m saying? When you
23 say I’m just stabbing a -- well, stabbing somebody who’s
24 already passed away, it sounds like a minimization.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Uh, and -- and
2 it ha -- has in the past been held as minimization by
3 you, so today -- so prior to today, when did you --
4 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I would say in my 20s and 30s
5 that I felt that way, cause it was easier for me to, uh,
6 deal with what the crime was and, um, mys elf, but for a
7 very long time now, I have understood that.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: That’d be what?
9 About 30 years? About 30 years you’re ( inaudible )?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Maybe 20.
12 right. Just trying t o get a grasp of it.
14 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: As a follow-
15 up question, if the inmate believed that in her 20s and
16 30s, then why did she continue to mention it at several
17 hearings that Miss -- that she thought Mrs. La Bianca was
18 already dead when she stabbed her?
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You know, I --
20 we just discussed the issue. Okay. When -- when did
21 you -- d -- when did you feel when you were saying that
22 you weren’t -- you weren’t minimizing or did you c larify
23 that? Wh -- at what point did you start doing that?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I probably was saying it. I
25 can’t guarantee why I said it, but because I believed
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1 that she was, I was saying it.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, you said
3 earlier that y ou felt that early on that helped you deal
4 with it. So it’s a minimization of the --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- of your
7 culpability.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: When did you
10 believe that you stopped minimizing it ? You may still
11 believe she was deceased, but take full responsibility
12 for it. When did you start feeling that way? D -- do
13 you understand the question?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. I’m trying to think
15 back.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIO NER ROBERTS: (inaudible) --
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- I would remember that
18 approximately 20 years ago. I -- but she’s saying I
19 said things in the record. I -- you know.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, let’s be
21 clear about it if I can. I’m hopi ng this is clear.
22 There’s one thing to say I stabbed a deceased person.
23 There’s one thing to say I stabbed -- and that’s a
24 minimization -- and the other one is that she was
25 deceased, but that doesn’t mean I participated and I’m
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1 just fully culpable as -- as if she was alive and maybe
2 she was.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You see what I’m
5 saying here?
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. So which
8 -- at what point do you believe the transition from the
9 first part to the second part?
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I’m thinking approximately 20
11 years ago.
13 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: In the last
14 hearing, uh, on Page 65 at Lines 22 to 24, the inmate
15 stated, “I hope you’re not understanding that I know
16 it’s my responsibility that I allowed this to happen to
17 me.” Can the Panel please ask the inmate what she meant
18 by that statement?
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What was it
20 asked in context with? I’ve read the whol e transcript,
21 but we’re talking about a 200 -and-something page
22 transcript.
23 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Yeah.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What were we
25 talking about (inaudible)?
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1 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: I’ll give you
2 -- I’ll give you the, uh --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: If you can give
4 us the context to it.
5 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Yup. Um, uh,
6 the inmate, um -- Commissioner Zarrinnam was asking the
7 inmate, uh, if he thought that it was out of the
8 ordinary, um -- well, it goes back. Um, it --
9 Commissioner Zarrinnam was questioning the inmate about
10 didn’t she think it was strange they were going to go
11 live in a hole and --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Yeah, I remember
13 that.
15 then the inmate was talking about how they were
16 preparing, uh, by playing creepy -crawly games.
17 Commissioner Lam, um -- the inmate was talking about how
18 they were getting karate lessons and trying to figure
19 out how they were going to survive. Comm issioner --
20 Deputy Commissioner Lam -- whose idea was that? Answer
21 -- Manson. He conducted what we did, but we did it, you
22 know? You know? I’m not -- I hope you’re not
23 understanding that I know it’s my responsibility that I
24 allowed this to happen to me .
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: She’s asking for
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1 a clarification of the statement. You’ve heard that
2 statement now.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What did you
5 mean by that?
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: That it’s difficult to say
7 that things were being conducted by Manson and that I --
8 I accept responsibility that I allowed him to conduct my
9 life in that way.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So you’re taking
11 responsibility .
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Cause
14 it’s confusing the way it’s --
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- worded.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Counsel.
19 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Well,
20 actually I -- I am still a b it confused because, uh, I’m
21 asking does she take responsibility for the action or
22 does she take responsibility for allowing Manson to help
23 her conduct her life in that way?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- I think I know -- I take
25 responsibility for the action an d for him saying it. Do
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1 you -- I take responsibility that I allowed myself to
2 follow him, and in that, I take responsibility for the
3 actions that I did by allowing him to influence me in
4 the manner that he did --
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- without minimizing my --
7 my, uh, involvement.
9 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the
10 Panel please ask, uh, the inmate -- was Bobby Beausoleil
11 her common-law husband and did the inmate ev er tell any
12 psychologist that Bobby Beausoleil was her common -law
13 husband?
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Do you
15 recall telling anybody he was your common -law husband?
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I believe I did back in the
17 early ‘70s with the first psych iatric evaluations. I’m
18 not sure. But I know I read somewhere that I had said
19 that.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: That wasn’t
21 true, was it?
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Cause
24 I’ve read that he was somebody else’s.
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1 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: So why did
2 the inmate tell somebody that?
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (inaudible) why
4 you told somebody that or 30 years ago or 40 years ago?
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: That was more like 45 years
6 ago.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Do you
8 recall why you would you were saying that?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, probably so I could have
10 visitation rights with him in the County Jail or
11 something.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Ah. Okay.
13 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Could the
14 Panel please ask when the inmate learned about the
15 murder of Gary Hinman and what -- from whom did she
16 learn it?
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Do you recall
18 that?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, I remember learning about
20 it, and I believe I found out about it from Bobby Beau -
21 - I -- I don’t know if he told me that Gary Hinman had
22 actually been killed, but he was leaving the ranch, and
23 he was very upset, and it -- I -- I believe it was at
24 that point I knew and then very quic kly he got arrested,
25 and he was in the County Jail for the murder.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Bobby Beau --
2 Beausoleil.
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Bobby Beausoleil.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Now, were y --
5 when that murder occurred, were you in cust ody in the
6 ranch or where were you?
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I was at the ranch.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. You were
9 -- you were at the ranch ( inaudible).
12 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LE BOWITZ: Did the
13 inmate learn about the murder of Gary Hinman from
14 anybody else?
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Do you recall
16 who you learned about that?
17 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I can’t -- I can’t recall.
19 DEPUTY DISTR ICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: After Bobby
20 Beausoleil got arrested, did the inmate consider Tex
21 Watson to be her boyfriend?
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Did you ever --
23 did you ever consider Tex Watson to be your boyfriend?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: We didn’t have boyfriends.
25 We just had people and, um, at one point, Manson felt
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1 that I was getting too involved with the bikers that
2 were starting to hang around, and he told Tex to keep an
3 eye on me.
5 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He was one of the guys I
6 spent time around. I could have said he was my
7 boyfriend, but --
8 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: Did the
9 inmate spend most of his -- most of her days with Tex
10 Watson within the weeks prior to the LaBianca and Tate
11 murders?
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You can answer
13 that question.
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. Manson had told him to
15 keep an eye on me.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So when you say
17 keep an eye, you s -- you spent a lot of time with him?
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. And Pat
20 figured into that scenario, too?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, no. I had gone up into
22 the, um, mountain area, the hills with a guy that was
23 hanging around the ranch, and, um, when I came down the
24 next morning, Manson was really upset and told Tex to
25 keep an eye on me.
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1 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: I have no
2 further questions.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Very good.
4 Clarifying questions for your client?
5 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: I do. Um, when Manson tol d
6 Tex to keep an eye on you, did he say why?
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He -- he felt -- oh. Do I
8 ask -- do you ask --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You -- you can -
10 - he can --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Let -- let --
13 let me just explain something.
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Just trying to --
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Legislature was
16 very clear that she can’t ask you -- the DA can’t ask
17 you questions directly. They can ask us. They didn’t
18 say your attorney couldn’t ask.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Your attorney
21 can ask you direct questions.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You just answer
24 your attorney.
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Okay. Um, Manson felt that,
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1 um, I was ge tting too involved with the bikers, and he
2 didn’t want me to spend time around the m. And then as
3 it was, that was the incident where the guy came back up
4 and tried to get me to go with them, and, um, I didn’t.
5 I didn’t.
6 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Um, now, the Governor quoted,
7 um, that, you know, you had a lack of real quan --
8 consequences growing up and -- and he used that
9 (inaudible). When -- now, according to the, um, psych
10 eval, you -- looks like you’re arrested or charged -- do
11 you remember? Were you arr ested or charged or both four
12 times for those crimes in your adult record on Page 5 of
13 the, um, psych eval? Do you remember?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Being arrested?
17 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Were you charged w ith any
18 crimes?
20 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Um, were there any other
21 times besides those four that you were arrested besides
22 the murders?
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Uh, not that I remember.
24 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: W -- was there a big raid on
25 the ranch?
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, that -- I believe that
2 was one of the four.
3 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Okay. And d -- during these
4 four crimes -- when there was a big raid on the ranch,
5 what did they find?
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Dune buggies --
7 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: How many?
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: -- and, um, weapons. I don’t
9 remember.
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Four or five. I -- I don’t
12 remember how many. Quite a few.
13 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: What kind of weapons?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Guns and, um -- I -- I don’t
15 know the exact kinds. There was a Schmeisser. There
16 were -- Danny DeCarlo had a gun collection that he had
17 transferred over to the ranch so they arre -- they got
18 all the guns.
19 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Okay. And did you all have
20 access and use these guns?
21 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Well, we knew where they were
22 and we could go in there, but people couldn’t use the
23 guns cause, you know, Manson controlled the use of the
24 weapons.
25 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Okay. Um --
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: There was practice. The guys
2 would go out and practice at night.
3 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Did you ever practice?
5 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Um, so they -- did they
6 arrest anybody for this? For this raid?
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I don’t -- I don’t remember.
8 I don’t remember if individuals got arrested for the
9 weapons.
10 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Were you arrested?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I was -- I was arrested, but
12 never arraigned. The majority of us were, um, arrested,
13 kept the period of time before an arraignment, and the n
14 let go.
15 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Was anyb --
16 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: So I -- I don’t know if Danny
17 DeCarlo ended up doing jail, getting fined. I don’t
18 know. They were his weapons, and, um, as far as I know,
19 we all -- we all were released.
20 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: So did -- these times when
21 you keep getting arrested and released, did that en t --
22 you know, further cement your failure to appreciate
23 consequences?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- at -- by that time, I
25 wasn’t thinking in terms of consequences. It just -- I
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1 -- I didn’t think about -- wow. I’m lucky I didn’t do
2 three years in prison.
3 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Well, the reason I’m asking
4 is failure to appreciate consequences is one of the
5 youthful offender factors, and I’m trying to figure out
6 if that -- at that time when you were 19 years old, when
7 all of this was going on, was there any reason for you
8 to even consider consequences?
9 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. No. I didn’t -- I
10 didn’t measure them.
11 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: The Governor talks about a
12 self-induced abortion on P age 3 of his reversal. Did
13 you have a self-induced abor -- abortion?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. It was not self induced.
15 A woman came into my house with, um, the psychologist
16 and my mother. She douched me with a solution. I was
17 probably far enough along that today it would still be
18 illegal. And, um, no, I -- I did not -- I did not do it
19 myself.
20 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Okay. There was, um -- it
21 looks like a group of inmates from the prison all signed
22 this, um -- several paragraphs and pages about, um, how
23 you’ve helped them seek deeper healing, uh, for a
24 healthier way of life. Do you know those inmates?
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1 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Do they know you?
3 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Are they important part of
4 your life?
6 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Why?
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: They’re the living amends.
8 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Um, and there’s 117 of them.
9 Are there others that aren’t in prison here to write
10 this that you have helped along the way?
11 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. They wrote -- some --
12 some of them wrote letters.
13 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: And, uh -- do you ever
14 communicate with Catherine Share, um, after the time
15 that you said about three years after you were here and
16 she was sent here for a period of time, and that ’s when
17 you realized that you were no longer in tune with the
18 Manson rhetoric. Um, after that time, did you ever
19 communicate with Catherine Share?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. She phoned the prison
21 at the 25-year mark and asked them could she talk to me,
22 and you know, they use the speaker and everything. And
23 I spoke with her and she apologized to me for having, um
24 -- taking me to the ranch. It was something she needed
25 to do.
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1 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: And then -- just -- did you
2 feel like you were free to leave the ranch prior to the
3 murders?
5 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: And -- and why is that?
6 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I had tried to leave the --
7 the one time. I was, uh, exhausted from all of the
8 commotion when we started sneaking up on each other an d
9 all, and I told Manson I -- I needed to go. I wanted to
10 go. And he drove me up to a big hill and, um, cliff and
11 told me to jump, that to leave was to die. And I held
12 on to that and I’m sure when the guys came to get me in
13 the truck and I -- or the car and I felt my feet were in
14 cement that that fear of what would wait for me by
15 leaving the group was what kept me attached there.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: What was that
17 fear?
18 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: The fear of the revolution,
19 you know? The -- the -- the fear of, um, being caught
20 and -- by the blacks and having them do to me what had
21 been done to them. He spent a lot of time talking about
22 that. And being murdered.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Did you fear
24 that Manson or any of the family would come get you?
25 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: He made it clear that
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1 betraying -- turning was betraying and that I would --
2 he didn’t say it in words. It happened at the end. At
3 the -- at the end after the crimes when we were in the
4 desert, it was very clear we could n’t leave at that
5 point.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: We’re talking
7 about the issue being discussed was in the -- in the
8 Governor’s letter is about that time before the murde rs
9 that you couldn’t have left (inaudible ).
10 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, I --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You (inaudible).
12 We discussed it earlier. The last Panel and you
13 discussed it.
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I -- I took when he said jump
15 now because to leave me is to die. I took that as a
16 personal, you know, foreshadowing.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, had they -
18 - had you witnessed them going and getting any members
19 who had left before?
20 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. Most people came back.
22 didn’t witness them go get people. H ow about go --
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- retaliate on
25 people who had left --
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- (inaudible )?
3 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: I would not have known about
4 that.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: All right. I’m
6 sorry. Counsel, I --
7 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Th -- that’s --
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I needed to
9 explore that.
10 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: No, that -- that’s -- I’m
11 glad that you did. Um, and you described that there
12 were different groups. There was a core group, and
13 there was a looser group, and some people, um, had no
14 monetary value or no use for Manson. Did those
15 classifications seem to have an impact on who was free
16 to leave and who might not be?
18 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: In what way?
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Um, if you didn’t -- if you
20 didn’t serve a purpose, then he didn’t want you around
21 basically. That’s --
22 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: And -- and it sounds like
23 some people served a purpose by having money, and then
24 once he took all their money, then --
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1 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: -- there was no longer a
2 purpose?
4 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Okay. And your purpose -- if
5 I get this right -- was in -- in a large part, um, to
6 keep Bobby Beausoleil happy when he came around?
7 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: That and, you know, when guys
8 would come up that might be part of the music industry
9 or when the bikers were there, there were a little set
10 of us that would, you know, go out and keep their
11 attention and welcome them. So that’s --
12 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Did you feel like you were
13 being used at that time?
14 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: No. No, I didn’t.
15 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Did you feel that was your
16 contribution to this whole group?
17 INMATE VAN HOU TEN: It wasn’t even that defined.
18 I was just sort of doing what we did. Do you know what
19 I mean? Like, there weren’t -- it wasn’t set out like
20 that.
21 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Now, when Manson would talk
22 about his prior crucifixion and everything, di d you
23 believe he was Jesus Christ?
24 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes. I did.
25 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Did the others?
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1 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: They all acted like it.
2 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: No further questions.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Any other
4 questions for the Panel?
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: No.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Let’s go
7 to closing statements. Now, how we’ll do this is start
8 with the District Attorney, then Mr. Pfeiffer will make
9 a closing statement, you make a closing statement, and
10 then we’ll come to the, uh, victims’ family members and
11 representatives, allow them to make statements. When
12 that happens, I want to ask the District Attorney, uh,
13 give up her seat and -- and whoever’s going to talk and
14 when you’re going to talk, we’ll hav e you come up and
15 we’ll start off by having you state your name -- state
16 your name, spell your last like you did at the beginning
17 of the hearing. We’re doing that because the person
18 who’s typing this up -- I want to make sure that they,
19 uh, credit your wo rds to you. Okay? If that makes
20 sense. Hopefully. So let’s start with closing
21 statements from the Los Angeles County District
22 Attorney’s Office, Miss Lebowitz.
24 The Los Angeles County District Attorney’s O ffice is
25 opposed to a finding of parole suitability for this
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1 inmate at this time. In the case of In Re Lawrence, in
2 rare circumstances, the aggravated nature of the crime
3 alone can provide a valid basis for denying parole even
4 when there is strong evidenc e of rehabilitation and no
5 other evidence of current dangerousness. I would like
6 to, um, defer the -- my statement about the aggravated
7 nature of the crime and go instead at this point to
8 evidence that the inmate has not been rehabilitated.
9 Now, the inmate talked to us here today, and the inmate
10 also submitted, uh, a crime insight statement that
11 Commissioner, uh, Roberts referred to at the beginning
12 of this hearing. But the main takeaway that I see from
13 this hearing is that I come away with the conclusio n
14 that the inmate still believes, though she says she
15 takes responsibility, that nothing is her fault. Now,
16 one of the statements that she makes in her insight
17 statement, um, and we talked a little bit about this
18 today, was that the morals that she receiv ed from her
19 basic institutions, meaning home, church, and school,
20 had been twisted and manipulated. And I submit to the
21 Panel that the morals that she learned from home,
22 school, and church were not twisted and manipulated by
23 Manson, but just simply disreg arded by the inmate. The
24 inmate told you that she smoked marijuana that was
25 illegal at the time I believe, and if it wasn’t, it
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1 became illegal. She also told you that she manipulated
2 her own brother into giving her the marijuana by saying
3 -- if you don’t give it to me, I’m going to tell your
4 mother. These are morals that she learned from church,
5 home, and school, and still disregarded them, and then
6 she smoked the marijuana. Again, morals that she
7 learned from home, church, and school . No premarital
8 sex. What did she do? Had premarital sex with Bobby
9 Mackie, became pregnant, and then became, uh, pretty
10 much shamed for the abortion. Again, a disregard of
11 those morals she learned. Not twisted or manipulated.
12 A disregard. She did LSD. Same argument. She ran away
13 from home. Same argument. She told the Pa nel that she
14 -- when she went to, uh -- first went to the ranch, she
15 said she kind of wanted to stick it to her mother.
16 Again, these are -- you’re supposed to respect your
17 mother. These are morals that she simply disregarded,
18 and the fact that she’s telling us that Manson twisted
19 or manipulated them is -- is no different than what she
20 did before she met Manson. And I know there’s a lot of
21 talk about, uh, uh, Manson controlling the family. Now,
22 this inmate, as we know, had three trials. The first
23 trial was -- the first trial, the inmate was found
24 guilty of premeditated murder, and the conviction was
25 reversed only because of the issue with her lawyer. Not
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1 because the evidence was deficient. And the jury found
2 premeditation and deliberation. Now, there’s a
3 different argument about Manson control here in these
4 parole hearings than there is or was at the trial. And
5 the issue about Manson controlling the family was -- at
6 the trial was to tie him in to the conspiracy. Here the
7 issue about Manson controlling the inmate is different
8 because it goes to her free will to do certain things.
9 Now, remember, the inmate was again convicted in her
10 third trial of felony murder. Felony murder requires no
11 premeditation and deliberation. You kill someone during
12 a robbery. That’s what she was convicted of. Her
13 defense at the trial was diminished capacity. The jury
14 did not believe that diminished capacity and, therefore,
15 she can be seen to have had her own free will when she
16 did this. Now, in the C -File at Page 352 to 489 is, um
17 -- my math isn’t good, but about 140 pages’ worth of the
18 trial transcript of the cross examination by this inmate
19 by then-Deputy District Attorney Steve Kay. And Steve
20 Kay did an amazing job by laying out the foundation s
21 that (A) she knew what she was doing was wrong, (B) she
22 knew what she was doing was against the law, and (C) she
23 knew what the consequences were if she were to have done
24 that. And, um, it’s -- it’s replete throughout th e
25 trans -- uh, throughout the transcript, but it -- it
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1 goes to show -- and these are her own words in 1977 upon
2 cross examination -- these are her own words -- that she
3 knew what she was doing. Now, when she talks to us
4 today, especially toward the end of this hearing, when I
5 -- when -- when the Panel asked her questions on my
6 behalf, her answers were not what she did, but what
7 Manson did. Well, um, you know, why -- why did you say
8 Tex Watson was your boyfriend? Well, cause Tex --
9 because Manson wanted T ex to watch me. And -- and my
10 questions -- she didn’t speak in the first person. She
11 spoke how Manson wanted it. And again, that is
12 completely opposite to what she said in 1977 when the
13 crime was closer in time. Now, when the Panel asked her
14 about her drug usage and how she would refrain from her
15 drug usage, she talked about pleasing her mother, she
16 talked about disrespecting the victims if she were to
17 use drugs again. Now, this inmate has been in a 12 -step
18 program for decades. And -- and the questions that
19 Commissioner Roberts asked her about the steps and --
20 and things that she learned in the program, she honestly
21 did not showcase here today, because all of the reasons
22 that she gave for refraining to use drugs were all
23 external. It was all about ple asing other people.
24 Well, how did she get herself into this mess? Because
25 she wanted to please Manson. And she told the Panel --
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1 well, I don’t please people anymore. But all of her
2 examples that she gave you were all about pleasing other
3 people. What does she want to do for her Parole Plans?
4 Well, she wants to work with Iraqi vets. And if you saw
5 her reaction when Mr. Pfeiffer pulled out this petition
6 and -- and, uh -- with all of the lists of all of the
7 people that signed the petition, she was very -- very
8 effusive and appeared very happy about these were all
9 the people that she helped. Again, pleasing other
10 people. She’s not really any different than she was at
11 19 if she’s still trying to please other people. Now,
12 something interesting in the C -File was in, uh, a psych
13 report. In 1978, uh, uh -- strike that. 1982. And I
14 don’t have the exact page of the C -file, but it was the
15 1982 psych report that opined that her courteous and
16 sometimes overconsiderate ways appear to be
17 overcompensatory manifes tations of her continued sense
18 of insecurity and self criticalness. And in previous
19 transcripts, and I don’t think she used those words
20 today -- but in previous transcripts, she used those
21 words. And again, that’s a really interesting,
22 insightful stateme nt because she continues to
23 overcompensate, to be nice, to want to please. And so
24 again, that is another example of the fact that she’s
25 not a different person today -- that she is the same
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1 person despite all of these years of programming. Now,
2 I’d like to talk a little bit about her remorse. Uh,
3 the Panel may have been satisfied with her definitions
4 of remorse, but it seemed to be that the true elements
5 of remorse were prompted by the Panel and very far down
6 on this list. Now, for someone again who has taken
7 decades of 12-step programs, one would think that her
8 definition of remorse would be right on the tip of her
9 tongue, and it wasn’t. Again, when she was here in the
10 Panel and she was showing emotion, she was showing
11 emotion about reading the Book of Revelations to Charles
12 Manson. And she was showing emotion about those people
13 who she’s helped. But she didn’t show one smidge of
14 emotion when she was talking about her butchering
15 Rosemary LaBianca and listening to Leno LaBianca being
16 butchered in the ne xt room. Now, I’d like to, um, talk
17 about some of these, uh, statements that she made in her
18 insight statement, and I know the Panel goes with her
19 verbal statements, but it was submitted as a, uh,
20 supplement to this hearing. Now, the inmate said, uh,
21 that during the ride over there that she was falling in
22 and out of sleep on the way in the car to the LaBianca
23 house. I have to tell you. This defies logic because
24 she knew that they were going to murder. If you really
25 read this transcript, it really does a good job -- and I
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1 hate to repeat myself, but it really does a good job
2 about what she knew. She knew she was going there to
3 murder. Now, common sense tells us that the human,
4 physical, physiological reaction is -- when you are up
5 for the task, I want t o please my man, I want to fight
6 for the cause, I want to please Pat Krenwinkel -- that
7 you are on a heightened state of awareness, a heightened
8 state of alertness, your adrenaline’s flowing, and for
9 her to say that -- well, you know, I fell asleep off and
10 on as we were driving over there -- that does not make
11 sense, and that’s another form of minimization about the
12 crime. Her insight statement also said that she
13 questioned her ability to be a dedicated accomplice. We
14 didn’t really get into the facts of t he crime here, but
15 in several, um -- well, we did, but some of the things
16 that had come out in previous hearing s didn’t come out
17 today. And, uh, you know, one of the -- one of the
18 main, um -- one of the main points of contention is
19 that, you know, she fel t she couldn’t do it, and that’s
20 why she called Tex Watson in, and she was critical of
21 herself, and she couldn’t look -- she couldn’t watch,
22 and she had to look away into the den. But her
23 questioning her ability to be a dedicated accomplice is
24 again another minimization of her participation in this
25 crime because actions -- as we all know the famous
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1 saying -- actions speak louder than words. And so what
2 were her actions here? Well, she got a deadly weapon.
3 A weapon known to produce death or great bodily injury.
4 A big butcher knife. And she removes Rosemary LaBianca
5 to a separate place in the house where her husband
6 couldn’t help her. And then she puts the pillowcase
7 over Mrs. LaBianca’s head. Now, the inmate said -- I
8 might’ve done it. I don’t rememb er. I don’t remember
9 seeing her face, but the -- the trial transcript is --
10 indicates that the inmate did put the pillowcase over
11 her head. So what does that do? That disarms the
12 person. She’s no longer able to see. She’s no longer
13 able to -- to fight back. And then, what does she do?
14 Wraps the lamp cord around her mouth -- around her neck
15 to choke her, to cut off oxygen. No air in, no air out.
16 Another way to disarm Mrs. LaBianca. She holds her down
17 on the bed so that Patricia Krenwinkel can accomp lish
18 the task and conflict -- and can inflict the torturous
19 stabbing. Another way to disable the victim so she
20 can’t fight back. So who does she call? Tex Watson.
21 Another stronger person. She knew that Tex was stronger
22 or she wouldn’t have called him in to help her assist
23 her -- to help him assist her. Then the inmate says in
24 her insight statement -- I brutally stabbed her multiple
25 times on her lower torso. Well, the fact that she
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1 understands that she brutally stabbed her -- that
2 actually is really t he only statement that shows that
3 she does have some insight. When she stopped, she began
4 wiping fingerprints off the lamp and in the room. What
5 does that tell you? She doesn’t want to be caught for
6 this. She doesn’t want anyone to know that she’s ther e.
7 She burned Rosemary LaBianca’s clothing when she got
8 back to the ranch so that there would be no evidence
9 that she was one of the people in the house. And the
10 trial transcript at least supports the fact that she did
11 brag to Dianne Lake, saying how fun it was. What about
12 any of that screams that she was questioning her ability
13 to be a dedicated accomplice? Nothing. There was a lot
14 of talk here in this hearing and in previous hearings
15 about, uh, the fact that perhaps it was inferred or it
16 was implied that the inmate committed these crimes
17 because she was fearful that Manson would kill her or do
18 bodily harm to her. And I’m glad that Commissioner
19 Roberts asked the -- the question at the end because in
20 this hearing and in previous hearings, the testimony
21 from the inmate was that Manson brought her up to the --
22 to the top of the cliff and said -- if you want to
23 leave, you may as well jump off the cliff because you’ll
24 get caught in the revolution and die anyway. The
25 inference is that she will die in the re volution. There
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1 was no direct threat -- don’t leave or I’ll kill you.
2 The inference is that -- oh, you know, Manson was
3 threatening all these people with, uh, violence and --
4 and bodily harm and -- and, therefore, the inmate
5 might’ve thought that Manson would kill her if she did
6 something to oppose him. But that’s not the case. He
7 didn’t threaten her. The control was in the form of
8 humiliation, and, uh, baaing like sheep, getting naked
9 and humiliating the body. It wasn’t -- if you do this,
10 I will kill you. The inmate subscribed wholeheartedly
11 to the philosophy, and so if you jump off the cliff, uh
12 -- strike that. If you want to leave, you may as well
13 jump off a cliff because you’ll die in the revolution.
14 That simply confirms her belief that she was committed
15 to the revolution. As the Commissioner pointed out
16 earlier in the hearing, there is -- there is -- there
17 are statements from the previous hearing and in this
18 hearing that people came and went. There were some core
19 people -- maybe I think she said seven to eight core
20 people. Uh, the evidence tells us there was many as 30
21 to 40 on the ranch. And the inmate said at the very end
22 of this hearing -- most people who left came back. I
23 mean, people were going freely. All of the historic
24 psych reports come back with a low risk factor. But I
25 would like to warn against the reliance -- and I know
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1 the -- the Panel does not rely solely upon these risk
2 factors -- but I would like to warn against the reliance
3 upon these risk factors for the following reasons. In
4 the ‘80s, the psychologists gave the inmate a low risk
5 factor, and they said she had insight and that she, you
6 know, had improved, but what do we know about the
7 inmate’s conduct in the ‘80s? Well, despite the fact
8 that she had insight, she married a parolee who then
9 turned out to be someone who wanted to do her harm, and
10 so even though there was an assessment by a psychologist
11 that she had insight and that she was a low risk for --
12 for, um -- for violence, she still entrusted herself,
13 her life, her Parole Plans to a parolee. We also note
14 that she had a decade -and-a-half correspondence with a
15 person named Michael Vines in the ‘80s and ‘90s --
16 again, even after receiving her low risk rating -- who
17 was a double murderer in two states, and she told us at
18 the last hearing that she had a romantic fantasy about
19 him. Now, what does that tell you? Again, romantic
20 fantasy and entrusting her life into somebody who is a
21 murderer, who is not going to be a positive person in
22 her life. And so again, even though t his Comprehensive
23 Risk Assessment tells us that she is a low risk, history
24 has shown that she has done things that, um, are
25 opposite to that. It seems that her statements here,
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1 uh, showing that she is still predisposed to pleasing
2 other people, her lack o f insight, her terrible
3 expression of remorse, and terrible demonstration of
4 remorse, her continued minimization of her role in these
5 murders still do not explain how the Gov -- uh, the
6 Governor’s concern -- how she is willing to participate
7 in such horrif ic violence. And as a result, for all of
8 those reasons, the People are opposed to any finding of
9 suitability.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Mr. Pfeiffer.
11 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Thank you. Let me, um, first
12 go through, um, Miss Lebowitz’s reasons for re commending
13 you deny parole. It says the crime alone, um, even if
14 there’s a strong showing of rehabilitation is enough.
15 But there’s actually no -- there’s some dicta about that
16 in a case, but there’s no holding that ever shows in any
17 single case in the St ate of California that the crime
18 alone, um, with a -- a complete rehabilitation as the
19 reason to deny parole. It’s dicta. And, um, it’s
20 certainly not the law. Not rehabili tated because she
21 believes nothing is -- is her fault. Here’s what she
22 said was her fault. It was her fault to follow and
23 believe Manson. It was her fault to actually do the
24 actions that she did in following him. Um, that’s not
25 saying it’s Manson’s fault. It’s saying it’s her fault.
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1 She didn’t do the right thing. She recognizes i t today.
2 She’s -- she knows what to do not to go down that --
3 that road again. Disregard for morals. And the
4 examples brought up by Miss Lebowitz are she used
5 marijuana, she got pregnant, got into LSD, and ran away
6 from home while she was in high school . This is more
7 than 50 years ago. This is when she wasn’t 19 years
8 old. This is when she’s 15, 16, 17 years old. The
9 youthful offender factors at that point are even greater
10 than they are at 19, and as the Panel pointed out that
11 they get -- you’re well aware of what those youthful
12 offender factors are. The, um, prefrontal cortex
13 doesn’t fully develop until the mid -20s, and the
14 juveniles are -- youthful offenders are impulsive.
15 They, uh, bow to peer pressure, and there’s a lot of
16 peer pressure througho ut this whole case. There’s peer
17 pressure in high school. Um, there’s tons of that.
18 There -- failure to appreciate consequences. She didn’t
19 have any at home. She didn’t have any at Manson’s place
20 when she’s getting arrested. No consequences. Um,
21 impulsivity. Everything she did in her life wa s
22 impulsive. As a young child, she ran away. Started
23 using drugs. She got pregnant. Um, uh, but you grow
24 out of that when your brain matures. So using something
25 that’s in her early high school, mid high scho ol years,
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1 uh, is certainly not relevant to today. A lot of talk
2 about Manson controlling. The DA’s Office, when I was
3 trying to get the Tex Watson tapes, which are probably
4 the most accurate description in the way that they were
5 done -- they have them. Every bit of evidence in every
6 Manson-related trial. It’s public record, except those
7 tapes. And I -- I do believe they’re going to com e out.
8 They’ve got them. They know what’s in them. And why
9 won’t they give them to us? Because maybe they just
10 verify everything that, you know, Miss Van Houten’s been
11 saying for years. First trial, she was convicted of
12 premeditation and deliberation. Well, guess what? That
13 trial got, uh -- that conviction got reversed. That
14 doesn’t count. It means it wasn’t a goo d enough, fair
15 enough trial. The third trial was felony murder where
16 Miss Lebowitz concedes. They didn’t have to prove
17 premeditation and deliberation. Um, the court -- this
18 Panel has to take as true the court findings. You say
19 that at every single paro le hearing in the beginning.
20 Nothing that we say or hear at this hearing’s going to
21 change the findings of the court. You’re not here to
22 retry the case. Same should go true for the other side.
23 She knew it was wrong, she knew it was against the law,
24 and she knew that there could be consequences. She did
25 it anyway because as she said, she allowed herself to be
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1 -- to follow Manson and to follow his actions, and she
2 actually took actions in -- in following it, and she
3 took responsibility for that. She can ’t undo that. I’m
4 sure she wishes she could. Um, oh, sh -- she says i --
5 if Miss Lebowitz said she was just doing what Manson
6 told her to do. Well, she’s got to answer the questions
7 of this Panel honestly. And if Man -- you know, some of
8 that is just f ollowing the directions -- a lot of this
9 in this case is following the directions of Manson. She
10 took responsibility in doing that, but then she’s still
11 got to talk to you honestly, and if that’s what was
12 going on in her mind, she has to lay it out there. What
13 -- she can’t lie to try to take more responsibility than
14 what’s really there. She was responsible for what’s set
15 up. Manson telling her what to do and her following
16 through with that. Um, as far as abating drug use.
17 What -- and -- and why these are all external, people
18 pleasing other people, and that’s why she’s clean and
19 sober and that’s why she’ll probably relapse. What Miss
20 Van Houten talked about is her motivation for becoming
21 clean and sober and staying clean and sober. Um, I
22 think everybody in here knows. I’m a drug addict, and I
23 was -- I was a violent one. I was doing armed robberies
24 for my drugs. And my son was my motivation to clean up
25 when I went to prison. And did I do it to please him?
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1 Yeah. Did I -- am I staying clean today to -- to please
2 him? No, I’m staying clean today because I have a lot
3 of responsibility to a lot of people. And is that
4 people pleasing? Well, I have a commitment to myself as
5 well. And I can do a lot of damage if I were to ever
6 relapse. Miss Van Houten ’s been down that road. She
7 understands that. Um, remorse. The way -- Commissioner
8 Roberts, you were asking this definition. I’m trying to
9 -- in my mind, I was trying to define it myself, and I
10 was doing what Miss Van Houten did -- was overthinking
11 it, and when -- it’s guilt and feeling sorry for what
12 you did to all those people. Everybody -- she’s talked
13 about it for years. Nobody’s ever questioned that part
14 of it. And I don’t think there’s any valid questioning
15 of that part of it. You’re -- you’re the people who
16 make the credibility findings. Emotion when she was
17 reading the Book of Revelation. Um, during the break,
18 Miss Van Houten told me on that same floor, Charlie
19 Manson’s grandmother was reading the Book of Revelation
20 to him, and then that tr iggered back. Um, some of these
21 things happen in the hearings. You don’t know why. We
22 don’t know why cause there aren’t follow -up questions.
23 I didn’t know that at the time. Um, feel free to leave.
24 We just had a Franklin hearing on Thursday. Catherin e
25 Share came in, and she testified that no, she was not
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1 afraid to leave. Matter of fact, after she got beat up
2 in front of everybody, uh, then Manson and Steve Grogan
3 took her aside, and Manson asked Steve Grogan -- you’re
4 really good at hunting people do wn. If she leaves, will
5 you do that for me? And he goes yes. And w -- just --
6 here’s what I want you to do. Will you tie her up, drag
7 her behind your car slow ? Don’t kill her. Make sure
8 she survives, but drag her all the way back to the
9 ranch. Will you do that for me? He said yes. He
10 turned to Catherine Share and says -- you going
11 anywhere? Catherine interpreted that as -- I’m not free
12 to go. People came and went. They did. The people
13 that lost value to Manson were free to go. The people
14 that still had value to Manson were not free to go. The
15 Risk Assessment. She shouldn’t -- shouldn’t pay any
16 attention to them, because back in the ‘80s, she married
17 a parolee who, um, very quickly started to be someone
18 that Miss Van Houten thought she wasn’t, and she quickly
19 divorced him. Um, and then she had a romantic fantasy
20 about a lifer in another state who would never be
21 granted parole. Um, we all make some mistakes,
22 recognize them, fix them, and that’s what she did with
23 that marriage. The romantic fa ntasy -- I think
24 everybody in this room ’s had romantic fantasies at one
25 time or another. Heaven forbid our -- our fantasies b e
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1 -- you know, determine whether we’re free people or in
2 prison. Continued minimization. Every time she comes
3 to a parole hearin g, she has to testify to the truth.
4 Otherwise, it won’t match up. Um, there’s -- she --
5 some of it is somewhat minimized. The DA’s Office at
6 the Supreme Court inviting the Tex -- giv -- giving up
7 the Tex Watson tapes -- and they wouldn’t even lodge
8 them confidentially with the Supreme Court when asked if
9 they would -- um, they said that our whole theory of the
10 case was Manson was in total control of everybody and
11 they all acted at his behest . They did what he said.
12 That’s their theory of the case. But now, if -- if Miss
13 Van Houten testifies to that here -- well, wait a
14 minute. Now she’s minimizing. But this is their theory
15 of the case. Oh, it’s -- on the psych evals, too -- I
16 have to say -- at the last hearing, Mr. Lam hit it
17 straight on. All the w ay back to 1980 until today, 17
18 doctors have said she’s a low or an extremely low risk.
19 They all can’t be wrong. But apparently, the District
20 Attorney’s Office doesn’t want you to believe all 17
21 doctors, some of them multiple ti -- uh, occasions. Dr.
22 Coburn, who says she passes the test where she can live
23 in my upstairs bedroom. Um, the prosecution -- I have -
24 - at this Franklin hearing, the judge ordered the
25 transcripts of the Tex Watson tapes and asked Miss
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1 Lebowitz -- I want you to flag the four place s that you
2 -- that your office told the Supreme Court is mentioned
3 in.
4 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: I’m going to
5 object. That is not a true statement. That is just
6 simply not a true statement. And I don’t think that
7 anything about the Franklin hea ring is admissible here
8 because the transcript has not been completed. The
9 transcript is the record of the Franklin hearing.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I understand
11 your assertions. ( inaudible). Made it clear and not
12 just --
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- this hearing.
15 You made it clear that you’ve been trying to get that
16 information --
17 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: I can --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- for a couple
19 of hearings now.
20 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: But I just want to point out
21 she responded with there could be more than four after
22 they told the Supreme Court four, and then the first
23 five -- eighty-five pages, the Court found eight. So --
25 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: They --
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I -- I think --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- the first
4 statement --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: There could be.
7 There may not be. That -- they’re asking her
8 (inaudible), and I’m sure she didn’t have it reading
9 there in front of her, so I -- I give her a lot of
10 leeway on that kind of a statement --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- because it
13 sounded like those were massive amounts of in formation
14 and volumes of words as it were, so I understand what
15 you’re saying, Counsel.
16 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Yeah, I -- I just -- I -- I -
17 - I -- one of the things that happened in the last rev -
18 - the Governor’s reversal was I brought up prosecutorial
19 misconduct as an issue, because I believed it was a
20 legal issue.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: You did.
22 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: And the Superior Court
23 recommended that the State Bar was a better entity to
24 investigate that. And in -- actually invited to reopen
25 the investigation if we got more evidence, so --
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I -- I’m more
2 concerned here about suitability than I am --
3 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: That -- that’s fine.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- (inaudible ).
5 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Okay. Um, youthful offender
6 factors. You have to give great weight to that
7 diminished culpability and capacity of who Miss Van
8 Houten was at 19 years old, and of all of those failure
9 to appreciate risks and consequences, immaturity, um --
10 just peer pressures. The family and peer pressures.
11 That -- and Manson used that to the nth degree in
12 getting these people to do what he wanted them to do.
13 Um, okay, the value of the commitment offense. In order
14 to use the commitment offense to deny parole, you need
15 an en -- a nexus to a current unreasonable risk to
16 public safety. So you’re going to have to -- if you --
17 if that’s the road that this Panel or the Governor wants
18 to go down, they have to tie it to some credible nexus
19 as to why today that commitment offense that’s almost 50
20 years old makes her unreasonable risk to the public
21 safety today if placed o n supervised parole. Um, the
22 Governor relied on statements by Barbara Hoyt, who also
23 wasn’t here, who also was never subject to cross
24 examination, and -- and I’m asking this Panel to find
25 that that’s an improper source to rely upon. Uh,
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1 physical reinforcements of what Manson was telling
2 people. They had no possessions. She witnessed people
3 getting hit by Manson whenever they didn’t do as he
4 directed. And -- and that’s consistent with everything
5 through the years. Um, Miss Van Houten said I didn’t
6 want to be hurt. Was she beaten? No. Shouldn’t have
7 to be beaten. All she had to do is see other people get
8 beaten for this, and she’s going to fall in line. She
9 bought in. She wanted to be as close to Manson, who she
10 thought was Jesus Christ. That’s what he successfully
11 sold to this whole group of people. Um, not everybody
12 was treated the same. Again, there -- the core group of
13 people had things that Manson c ould use or that he
14 wanted or that he abused, and Miss Van Houten fit into
15 that -- that core group. Um, as far as, um -- oh,
16 Manson was adamant that when Bobby Beausoleil was at the
17 ranch, Leslie’s job was to make him happy and -- and try
18 to keep him there. Manson wanted Bobby. Uh, the -- the
19 -- okay. Miss Van Houten was talking about today -- she
20 said the older I get, the harder it is to live with it -
21 - what I did and how it happened. Um, it -- it -- it --
22 that -- that is the definition of remorse. I t hasn’t
23 been forgotten. Um, and it doesn’t get easier over
24 time. It’s gotten harder over time, which means that
25 the remorse is not a fleeting thing. It’s not -- it
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1 wasn’t here 20 years ago and gone today. Um, I
2 understand how almost 50 years ago -- it’s hard for her
3 to get all of the -- the memories correct, the facts
4 exactly correct. She’s read so many different things,
5 it’s hard to sometimes figure what she witnesse d or what
6 she read, and -- and it’s 50 years ago, so things might
7 not fit exactly, pe rfectly in line. But she’s trying to
8 give you her best recollection of what happened. And
9 then there’s also the self -de -- defense mechanism of
10 your own mind trying to suppress some of those memories
11 because they are so awful. And -- but she -- she
12 understands all of that. Uh , the support letters.
13 These support letters were -- as the Panel pointed out -
14 - they were from people who know her, who knew her for a
15 long time, who saw the -- the changes. Some of these
16 support letters are from people who are former inmates,
17 who Leslie helped change their lives. And Miss Lebowitz
18 kind of twists that to say -- well, she’s just pleasing
19 others. No, she’s proud of the fact that the work that
20 she’s done and the dedication in living amends to pay it
21 forward has actually reaped some rewards in people’s
22 lives. And then those people go out in the community,
23 and how many people do they help? And, y -- you know,
24 they -- the impact that she’s had on -- a positive
25 impact since her incarceration can’t even be measured.
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1 And -- and that’s in here, and if she’s released, how
2 much more can she do on the outside? She wants -- she
3 said she wants to use what she’s learned in here to be
4 able to help write grants for better programs, to help
5 inmates rehabilitate. These support l etters know her,
6 and the people whose lives she changed know her, and
7 they’re thankful for that. The tens of thousands of
8 opposition, um, petition le -- we don’t even know what
9 the petition says. There’s no signatures on there. We
10 don’t know if -- anything about them except there’s a
11 whole lot of people that say -- oh, the word Manson.
12 Never get out. And they don’t know the facts of the
13 crime. They don’t know what’s happened to Leslie since
14 the crime, her journey on rehabilitation, her
15 contributions. They know none of that. And they just
16 ask that when you start to look at numbers, put into the
17 quality of those letters and the quality of the one --
18 how many opposition letters actually talk about any of
19 the facts? Very few. But there’ s some. And -- and the
20 ones that actually sound like they know what’s going on,
21 give them the dulate. But the ones who are just signing
22 off on something, give it that dulate, too, which is
23 very little. And, um, that’s all I -- that’s all I
24 have. I just ask you that th e law is that she’s not a
25 current, unreasonable risk to public safety, you shall
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1 grant her parole. I’m asking that you follow the law.
2 I’m asking that if you do and you grant her parole that
3 the Governor also follow the law. Um, there’s no -- no
4 law that says a completely rehabilitated person based on
5 the -- the commitment offense should not be paroled.
6 And even if you were do to that, you can’t look at the
7 commitment offenses done by Manson and his gang. You
8 have to look at the commitment offense as d one by Miss
9 Van Houten and her part in it and Stoneroad says that.
10 And with that, I’ll submit.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Closing
12 statement you’d like to make?
13 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Yes, I just want to thank you
14 for the opportunity to come up here t oday, and, um, I
15 answered as honestly as I could remember, and thank you
16 for the questions that you asked, and, um, things for me
17 to think about. I also want to apologize to all of
18 those in the room and those that are not for the damage
19 that I did and the stealing of their loved ones’ life in
20 a senseless manner. I apologize very deeply for that.
21 And, um, I just hope that I was able to convey the truth
22 of who I am today to you. So thank you.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Thank you,
24 ma’am. Miss Lebowi tz, you going to vacate your chair?
25 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY LEBOWITZ: I am trying
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1 to do that right now.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Who would like
3 to go first? Brave soul who wants to go first?
4 UNKNOWN VOICE: (inaudible).
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONE R ROBERTS: Right. If you
6 could move that microphone over to that person there --
7 UNKNOWN VOICE: Okay. Yeah. Whoops.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Sir, again,
9 please state your full name , spell your last, and your
10 relationship to the victims.
11 MR. SMALDINO: Um, I’m Lou Smaldino, um, nephew
12 of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca. My mother, uh, was
13 Leno’s oldest sister. Her name was Stella. Um, we’re
14 all here today to decide whether, uh, Miss Van Houten is
15 deserving of parole and what impact her crimes ha ve had
16 on our family. You know, that’s why I’m here. Um, I
17 have attended over 10 of these hearings on the Manson
18 family and what they perpetrated on our society and in
19 particular on our family. Uh, only one word describes
20 their acts, and it’s -- it’s depraved. Um, what they as
21 a group did in particular and beyond all norms of a
22 civilized society. Now these people want us to forget
23 what they did and how they destroyed families and loved
24 ones with callous and total disregard for humanity.
25 Miss Van Houte n and her cohorts, uh, came into the
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1 sanctity of people’s homes, brutally murdered innocent
2 people they did not even know just to start a race war.
3 They want us to forget, but, you know, honestly, we
4 cannot. Uh, lives have been shattered, fortunes lost,
5 families shattered, five children lost their parents in
6 this particular instance, um, the ongoing depression for
7 both my mother and my grandmother, grandchildren who
8 never got to meet their grandparents, a failed family
9 business. In other words, irre -- irreparable damage
10 has been visited on our family, uh, by these
11 psychopaths. We come to these hearings because, uh,
12 that is what the law allows us. Um, Miss Van Houten --
13 Houten is abusing the very laws that she and the Manson
14 family outrageously violated . Uh, she is a total
15 narcissist and only thinks about herself and her
16 potential freedom, not the damage she has done. She
17 always minimizes her involvement in these heinous acts,
18 and to this day, um, she was not one -- she has not
19 acknowledged that she wa s one of the leaders of the
20 Manson family, uh, and that re -- re -- Rosemary and
21 Leno were already dead when she stabbed them. Uh, but
22 forgets to mention that she was angry that she was not
23 on the first night of, uh -- that, uh, did away with,
24 uh, Sharon Tate. And, you know, I also picked up on
25 today -- you know, um, she had exact memory of how long
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1 she’s been in prison, but she couldn’t remember whether
2 she put a pillow on Rosemary’s head or what -- or that
3 there was any blood around the body. That’s
4 incomprehensible for a sane person. There is also the
5 fact that she’s feigned remorse, uh, when she comes to
6 these hearings, but conveniently forgets to mention that
7 not once in 40 years has she apologized to any member of
8 our family for what she has done t o us except in this
9 courtroom. We’ve never received a letter, a note, any
10 reach out at all in 40 years. This pres -- process is
11 all about Leslie and not the victims. She is the poster
12 child for narcissism. What sane, no -- normal person
13 acts this way? I’ve tried to put myself in her shoes
14 and what I would do, you know, if I were remorseful and
15 you really addressed that well today, your honor. I
16 couldn’t conceive of not reaching out to the person that
17 I damaged and the family, especially the five child ren.
18 You know, I’m just a nephew. But the five children. I
19 mean, I just can’t imagine not reaching out in all this
20 time, uh, to at least address. I mean, I just went
21 through a recent real estate transaction where the
22 party’s wife died during the transa ction. I mean, I
23 immediately sent a sympathy card to the family. You
24 know -- you know what I’m saying? That’s what rational
25 people do. This person cannot do this. It’s all about
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1 her and getting out and being free. She was given the
2 death penalty that has never been carried out because of
3 government failures to abide by the people’s will and
4 for people -- for people like her. She is blessed to be
5 still alive, yet is not good enough, uh -- yet this is
6 not good enough for this narcissist. She believes she
7 deserves to be free. This is absurd. Life in prison is
8 too good for Leslie Van Houten. She needs to pay for
9 her crimes. No amount of in -- incarceration or re --
10 remediation turns a psychopath into a normal human
11 being. Leslie has been a defective and dangerous
12 personality since, you know, I’ve been listening to all
13 the -- the testimony for the past, you know, probably 15
14 years. Her deeds speak much louder than, uh, her or her
15 lawyer’s words and the twisting of the legal system. If
16 Miss Van Houte n has an ounce of compassion, she would
17 cease to seek parole and accept her just sentence of
18 life in prison for what she has done. No member of the
19 Manson family deserves parole ever. They are still evil
20 and manipulative, and they try every trick in the book
21 to secure their release. Unfortunately, our society has
22 people who support this insanity, and we are all the
23 worse for it. We are compassion ate society, but we are
24 also a just society. Incarcerating Miss Van Houten is
25 both compassionate, she is allowed to be alive, and just
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1 because she is jailed for these heinous crimes and
2 murders. Therefore, my family humbly asks that you once
3 agot -- again deny, uh, Miss Van Houten, uh, parole, uh,
4 as not being acceptable, uh, for parole. Thank you.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Thank you.
6 MR. SMALDINO : Appreciate it.
7 MS. TATE: Sorry. My name is Debra Tate, T -A-T-
8 E, and I am a representative for, um, Lou Smaldino and
9 the LaBianca family. Uh, I would like to address the
10 Commission, the Board , and anybody reading these
11 transcripts in the future on the fact of the petition.
12 The petition is no parole for Manson family dot com, and
13 then there are pictures of all of the people that
14 committed murder in the Manson family because as we
15 know, there were other people that did not. You click
16 on that person’s picture, face, and a bio comes down of
17 exactly what the law committed them to prison for in the
18 first place, and then you can agree to sign, make a
19 statement, or none of the above. So I could think that
20 Leslie doesn’t deserve my signature and not sign hers,
21 but sign Patricia Krenwinkel’s. It’s totally up to the
22 signer. With that being said, I get private comments
23 all the time that state that people are still afraid.
24 It requires your address to go on the pape rwork if they
25 give long statements. However, many still do. Uh, for
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1 that reason, those 148,000 people’s signatures -- those
2 brave souls’ signatures do deserve to be counted. Also
3 change dot org has a system to where you can’t come back
4 and sign twice. If you signed it once last year, you
5 can’t sign it again this year. So that’s 148,000 new
6 people that concur that none of these people are wanted
7 out in society. As a victim’s rights advocate, I very
8 often have to argue people down in social media and in
9 letters that wish to do physical, very threatening,
10 bodily harm on these individuals. My choice -- and I
11 argue them right into the corner -- is y -- that would
12 make you part of the problem, not part of the cure. Us
13 as victims -- and I am one of her vict ims because Miss
14 Van Houten was involved in the preparation and planning
15 states and was it stated in other facts upset because
16 she wasn’t, uh, invited along in the killing of my
17 sister, my nephew, and three of my very good friends.
18 Okay. I spent the enti re summer at that house. I was
19 100% equal in my sister’s life. She was everything.
20 This woman, knowing what happened at Hinman’s house,
21 what happened at the Tate house, concurred and was happy
22 to go along at the LaBianca’s. Now, here we go. Miss
23 Van Houten stated that she had left with a biker for a
24 night and went up into the hills. The only consequence
25 for that was Charlie was angry and appointed Tex Watson
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1 to watch over her. However, Catherine Share, the person
2 that took her in the first place in t o meet the Manson
3 family, actually tried to escape twice. And as we heard
4 today, she was hit -- physically hit and beaten, so even
5 with the physical contact that Catherine Share had, she
6 risked being caught once and on the sex -- second
7 subsequent time, s he made it out. The only consequence
8 when Charlie found her and Barbara Hoyt completely out
9 of Guller Wash, uh, back in a very small society, a gas
10 station and -- I don’t know -- six or eight trailers or
11 whatever -- but they were around people -- was that they
12 were picked up and taken back. So is that a good
13 reason? Is that a real threat? To go ahead and do what
14 they did? What sh -- th -- the point of this is that
15 she was completely on board. She was as on board then
16 as she is now. I don’t see that m uch has changed. The
17 16-year sexual fantasy with the inmate in another, uh,
18 state in the United States was only ended by his death.
19 What would’ve happened -- since we’re dealing with
20 would’ves and could’ves in this courtroom -- what
21 would’ve happened if she was paroled and went to live
22 outside his prison, much like the Manson followers do
23 Charlie’s prison today because some of her, uh, partners
24 happen to live there and Squeaky Fromme -- it was
25 included in her Parole Pan -- Plans -- that she go and
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1 live with Sandra Good, which is one of the other, uh,
2 Manson family members. This shows horrible judgement.
3 She’s still attracted to outlaws, to bad boys, even
4 though she’s had this much consequence in her life. Um,
5 Pfeiffer said in the beginning, opening of t his -- this
6 state -- of this hearing that she did a timeline of her
7 entire life, although when you started asking her
8 questions, she fell horribly short on what those facts
9 might be. I think it would be extremely proper for her
10 to reflect and know exactly in her mind’s eye -- it’s
11 all still in there -- if she cares to recall it, which
12 would be part of her healing process, she needs to do it
13 and come clean with it. The bikers came back after
14 Charlie had caught her up in the hills away from the --
15 the group at Spahn Ranch, uh, came back and offered to
16 take her out, and she declined. It shows very clearly
17 to me and I think to so many other individuals who read
18 this and -- and keep up with things that this woman was
19 clearly on board 100% with all of the illeg al
20 activities, the -- the car thefts, the drug use. Uh, as
21 a matter of fact, I believe personally she migrated
22 towards the Manson family because she’s used to using
23 other people to get what she wants. A very key, uh,
24 personality factor for narcissism, wh ich is a pre --
25 precursor for socio -- sociopath, and she -- it’s all
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1 been about her. All day today. All about her. I remem
2 -- I know this is a parole hearing, but she’s minimized
3 her involvement, she’s blamed things on other people. I
4 know that she’s being asked to do so, but she couldn’t
5 come up with the key words, Commissioner . You had to.
6 You had to put in the key words on even the most basic
7 of what is, uh, uh, her understanding of the crime, what
8 is remorse in other words. You had to give her r egret,
9 uh, you had to give her guilt, and you had to give her
10 insight. She couldn’t com e up with those. My God, 47
11 years later. Give me a break. It’s not -- I -- I’d say
12 she’s not -- not rehabilitated. That being said, I
13 speak at many hearings under M arcy’s Law. There are
14 people that I do think have been rehabilitated. And I
15 would recommend it if it were warranted. I just have
16 too many questions about the stability, and in here,
17 she’s a stellar model of rehabilitation, but it’s a
18 whole different wor ld out there. That’s why we keep
19 these folks separated from society -- to keep society
20 safe and to keep them safe. And that is the best and
21 most humane action to take in the ca se of these people.
22 I would like you to take all of those things into
23 consideration when you deliberate this case, sirs.
24 Please. Thank you.
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1 MR. DIMARIA: Uh, my name is Anthony DiMaria, D -
2 I, capital M -A-R-I-A. I’m sorry. Um, I’m, uh, a
3 LaBianca family representative, and I was asked by Lou
4 Smaldino to represent. Uh, to be clear, our family’s
5 involvement in these hearings has nothing to do with
6 feelings of anger, revenge, or hatred towards Leslie Van
7 Houten. Rather, we come out of love, to speak for those
8 who cannot speak for themse lves. The victims’ families
9 present today have attended dozens of parole hearings
10 regarding Leslie Van Houten’s crimes and crimes of the
11 Manson family. For nearly half a century, death
12 sentences, legislation, defense attorneys, commissioners
13 have come an d gone. Yet what re -- yet what remains is
14 Leslie Van Houten, her victims, and our families. On
15 July 27th, 2017, the Los Angeles Times reported a shift
16 in the new era for California’s Parole Board, stating
17 that the Parole Board Executive Officer, Jenni fer
18 Shaffer, has “been at the helm of major initiatives
19 spurred by court cases and state laws that have
20 developed new processes to speed up and increase parole
21 hearings as well as release young and elderly offenders.
22 That approach is part of a pendulum swin g in California
23 coming after decades of tough sentencing policies that
24 led to overflowing prisons and a court -ordered cap on
25 the state inmate population.” But today, we are not
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1 here to enforce prison population caps or balance
2 California state budget. We are here because Leslie Van
3 Houten killed people. Part of what continues to disrupt
4 and impact our families are these endless parole
5 hearings and what occurs in them and what is said in
6 them. In today’s and previous parole hearings, there’s
7 been much di scussion of drug influence, mind control,
8 threat to society, rehabilitation, and suitability of
9 parole. We appreciate the opportunity to address these
10 issues. Just as the Manson clan collectively conspired,
11 targeted, subdued, held hostage, butchered, mutilated,
12 and taunted society as a crime conglomerate, so, too,
13 our families are bound by collective loss and suffering.
14 We stand for justice together just as the Manson clan
15 killed together. We must acknowledge Steven Parent,
16 Abigail Folger, Wojciech Frykowski, Jay Sebring, Sharon
17 Tate, her unborn child, and Donald Shea in these
18 proceedings today because had Miss Van Houten contacted
19 authorities after Leslie’s boyfriend, Robert Beausoleil,
20 murdered Gary Hinman on July 27 th, 1969, we wouldn’t be
21 in this room today and 10 people would have lived their
22 lives fully. Miss Van Houten and her attorneys would
23 have you believe that the inmate’s crimes occurred
24 exclusively in a vacuum at the LaBianca residence. This
25 couldn’t be farther from the truth. Miss Van Hou ten
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1 shared the intentions and full knowledge of Manson
2 family criminal activity for months leading up to the
3 killings. At a recent parole hearing, Miss Van Houten’s
4 attorney states, “We are talking about one night of
5 horrible violence in her life when she was clearly not
6 in her right mind.” This is misstatement of gargantuan
7 disconnect and minimization. Last year, Miss Van
8 Houten’s present attorney, Richard Pfeiffer, states,
9 “There is no doubt that if the word Manson was not
10 involved in her crimes, she w ould’ve been paroled 20
11 years ago.” I wonder. Does it occur to anyone who
12 shares this sentiment that the word Manson has become
13 synonymous with evil worldwide because of Leslie Van
14 Houten’s actions and her perverted behavior during the
15 trial? Leslie Van Houten is a prime and prominent
16 butcher in one of the most notorious killing
17 organizations in United States history. This is not by
18 association. This is directly due to the inmate’s
19 inhumane actions and behavior. Regarding drug and
20 Manson influence, at hearings in 2006 and 2007, Miss Van
21 Houten’s attorney, Christie Webb, asserted that her
22 client was rendered mentally incapacitated from chronic
23 LSD ba -- abuse and Manson control. Miss Webb st ates --
24 Leslie was vulnerable, as she was controlled by drugs
25 and Manson’s brainwashing. All that LSD changed the
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1 chemistry of her brain. At the petitioner’s 2010 parole
2 hearing, her then-attorney, Brandie Devall , states, “It
3 is abenden -- it -- it is abundantly clear that Miss Van
4 Houten has never used drugs as a crutch or a reason to
5 justify this life crime.” Then the flip flop at last
6 year’s hearing. Commissioner Zarrinnam: You said drugs
7 played a role. You wouldn’t have committed these crimes
8 but for the drugs? Inmate Van Houten: No. No. I
9 wouldn’t have committed them. Today Leslie says Manson
10 used LSD to indoctrinate her. These contradictions made
11 in distant and close proximity of each other gives one
12 pause to realize genuine accountability gives way to
13 tactical strategy. Regardless, consider Dr. Barb ara
14 Freeze, M.D., Senior Examiner for the Board of Neurology
15 and Psychiatry. “It is not defensible to say that
16 Leslie Van Houten was influenced immediately or
17 chronically changed by LSD. No drug has produced a
18 sustained psychotic state that cause a perso n to carry
19 out organize d activity -- activity as in these murders
20 with regard to the planning, the targeting, murdering,
21 painting messages in blood, not to mention escaping
22 capture and hiding from authorities. Psychedelic drugs
23 do not cause people to do p sychotic deeds.” On Manson:
24 Attorney Devall referred to Manson as a master
25 manipulator who “had a knack for finding lost, young
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1 people and manipulating them.” For decades, our
2 families are impacted as certain facets of media have
3 fashioned a narrative o n Manson and the so -called Manson
4 family. But in light of the historical destruction of
5 these crimes, it is imperative that we see things for
6 what they are. The so -called family is not a cult. It
7 was a group of people who chose to avoid work, have
8 indiscriminate sex, and get high. But in the months
9 leading to Miss Van Houten’s murders, August 10 th, 1969,
10 they committed extensive crimes involving drug
11 trafficking, credit card fraud, grand auto theft,
12 prostitution, pimping, extortion, and child molestatio n
13 at the ranch. Then the torture/murder of Gary Hinman.
14 Then the drug deal burn of Bernard Crowe. Days later,
15 the attempted murder of Ber -- of Mr. Crowe as -- after
16 he was shot in the chest. August 8 th, the murders of
17 six people on Cielo. August 10 th, the murders of two
18 people on Waverly. August 28 th, the murder of Donald
19 Shea. Numerous attempts to frame A frican-Americans for
20 murder. September 9 th, 1970, the attempted murder of
21 Barbara Hoyt. August 21 st, 1971, the robbery of
22 firearms from a supply store and subsequent shootout
23 with 30 police officers in Hawthorne. September 5 th,
24 1975, the attempted assassination of United States
25 President Gerald Ford. This is no hippie cult. These
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1 are not exploited, brainwashed teens. This is a
2 sophisticated, extremely deadly crime organization.
3 Charles Manson is not a mastermind or a counterculture
4 demigod with mystical powers to control. He is an
5 angry, frustrated man who lashed out at a society in
6 which he was a complete failure. Leslie Van Houten is
7 not a Charles Manson follower nor is she a victim. She,
8 too, was an angry individual who identified with an
9 organization bent on mayhem, rebellion, and destruction.
10 Her zealous loyalty, choices, and actions for nearly two
11 years clearly define her as a cruel -hearted sociopath, a
12 killer. Even Manson family member Lynette Squeaky
13 Fromme states, “To blame it on Manson is just silly.
14 These women could come and go as they wished. This was
15 a voluntary unity.” Is Leslie Van Houten a threat to
16 society? I sadly cal l to your attention the murder of
17 16-year-old Jason Sweeney, the Philadelphia teenager who
18 was killed by 4 teenagers, ages 15 to 17. The weapons
19 used to massacre the young man were a hammer, a hatchet,
20 and several large rocks. At one point during the
21 attack, the hammer was struck so severely, it remained
22 in the victim’s skull while he continued to struggle for
23 life. During the trial, the teenaged killers testified
24 listening to Helter Skelter over and over for several
25 hours before committing the murder. Helter Skelter.
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1 The same words written in blood on a wall at Leslie Van
2 Houten’s crime scene. Judge Seamus McCaffery, after
3 viewing Jason Sweeney’s crime scene photo, said -- this
4 is something out of the dark ages. I’m not sure we can
5 call ourselves a c ivilized society when this happens. I
6 bring to your attention three of the four teenagers were
7 sentenced to life without possibility of parole. Is
8 there anyone in this room that would suggest that these
9 convicted teenagers will be paroled after 20 years?
10 Even though the word Manson was not involved in their
11 crimes? Prosecuting District Attorney Jude Conroy
12 states -- it is really amazing that teenagers in
13 Philadelphia, Memorial Day weekend, is attuned to the
14 whole Helter Skelter in Manson mythology. It is a sad
15 testament to the twisted, brutal legacy the Manson
16 murders have left behind such that attracts 15, 16, 17
17 year olds 40 years later, 3,000 miles across the
18 country. It’s a powerful legacy. The threat of Leslie
19 Van Houten and her crimes to society -- direct,
20 symbolic, or repercussive is current and deadly. Leslie
21 Van Houten in the media. It’s no coincidence that the
22 teenage murderers of Jason Sweeney were excited and
23 inspired by Helter Skelter lore. Miss Van Houten’s
24 crimes have left a historica l wound on American culture.
25 Her decision s -- her decisions and behavior have
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1 profound consequences and are the reason the murderer
2 today is perceived by many as a rock star killer. If
3 there is any question of this reality, I submit the
4 following. These films produced in recent years --
5 Leslie, My Name is Evil, 2009, Bleeding Hearts, 2015,
6 Manson’s Lost Girls, 2016, Pretty Face, 2016, Bigger
7 than the Beatles, 2017 -- all depictions in which Miss
8 Van Houten is portrayed as a lead ingenue character.
9 There is also a Facebook page titled Free Leslie Van
10 Houten, 2017, with 1,150 followers worldwide, and the
11 website Leslie Van Houten dot com where a line of Leslie
12 Van Houten tee shirts are sold on the internet. I
13 submit these and other samples from the intern et for
14 your reference. May I?
16 MR. DIMARIA: May I pass these for your
17 reference? The tee shirts sold on the website and
18 different tee shirts that are prevalent today on the
19 internet.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER RO BERTS: You can -- you
21 can leave them. We’ll take a look at them.
22 MR. DIMARIA: Thank you. It -- it speaks to the
23 rock star status. This is not random. The inmate has
24 been active in a wide variety of media formats
25 throughout her incarceration. There a re book interviews
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1 with Michael Farquhar , Nicky Meredith, Carlene Faith ,
2 and Jeff Guinn. An internet search reveals Leslie’s
3 television interviews with Barbara Walters, 1977,
4 Barbara Walters, 1987, Diane Sawyer, ABC, 1993, Larry
5 King, CNN, 1994, Larry Kin g, CNN, 2002, interview with
6 film director John Waters, 2009. At a recent hearing,
7 Commissioner Jeffrey Ferguson asked Miss Van Houten --
8 what do you think your obstacles are going to be once
9 you’re released? Her answer -- maintaining anonymity.
10 I can certainly understand why. On the nature and
11 gravity of Miss Van Houten’s crimes. At a recent
12 hearing, Leslie Van Houten stated she accepts
13 responsibility for what she termed “superficial, post -
14 mortem wounds” to Rosemary LaBianca. This statement is
15 shocking and alarming, especially when we consider it
16 was made after years of reflection and rehabilitation.
17 It is deplorable to candy coat this in any way
18 whatsoever. Yesterday, today, ever. The first fatal
19 blow occurred at the hands of Leslie Van Houten whe n she
20 held Rosemary LaBianca hostage and prepared her for
21 slaughter. The next fatal blow was dealt at the hands
22 of Leslie Van Houten when she wrestled her victim to the
23 ground as she attempted to escape. The next fatal blow,
24 when she restrained Rosemary’ s arms as she was stabbed
25 dozens of times. The next, stab one, stab two, stab
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1 three up to s -- sixteen stabs. There is not one thing
2 about this inmate’s crimes that are superficial or post -
3 mortem. On rehabilitation. To be clear, we certainly -
4 - we -- we certainly do not discount Miss Van Houten’s
5 accomplishments behind bars. They are commendable. But
6 in comparison to the severe -grade dimensions of her
7 crimes, the diplomas, letters, and certificates are
8 paper. And yet after near ly -- nearly 50 years o f
9 rehabilitation, Leslie made a revealing, disturbing
10 statement just last year at her hearing. It involves
11 the word allowed. She said, as Dis -- as District
12 Attorney brought up earlier, “I hope you’re not
13 understanding that I know it’s my responsibility that I
14 allowed this to happen to me.” That it’s my
15 responsibility that I allowed this to happen to me.
16 That’s a hell of a way to characterize these crimes, but
17 it reveals who the individual is and how she minimizes
18 her crimes. Today she says -- I take responsibility for
19 what I allowed Manson to do to us. So what is it?
20 Minimization? Or sociopathic revisionism? Or both?
21 That statement is the cunning manipulation of a
22 sociopath. I’m struck that Miss Van Houten becomes
23 emotional today reminiscing abou t quoting Revelations
24 with Charles Manson, and yet not one tear when she
25 discusses the victims, her crimes, or what her victims
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1 suffered. Leslie Van Houten and her attorneys assert
2 that Miss Van Houten is a changed, rehabilitated in --
3 individual. One at torney states -- Miss Van Houten is
4 the most model prisoner in the system and has been for a
5 long, long time. She cannot change her offenses, but
6 she has changed herself. While the petitioner and her
7 attorneys maintain Leslie Van Houten has changed, Leno
8 and Rosemary LaBianca remain unchanged, unrehabilitated,
9 unparoled, and they will remain so for eternity. They
10 are just as dead today as the night Leslie Van Houten
11 sent them to their graves. From the LA Times article
12 referenced at the beginning of this statement, “Parole
13 Executive Officer Jennifer Shaffer describes the
14 changing philosophies in California hearings as a shift
15 from -- you did what, tell me about the crime -- to who
16 were you then, who are you today, and what’s the
17 difference?” These are re levant questions. So I ask
18 the same to those most impacted by Leslie Van Houten.
19 Rosemary LaBianca, who were you before August 10 th,
20 1969? Who are you today? What’s the difference?
21 What’s the difference of spending a peaceful Sunday
22 evening with your husband and being held against your
23 will with a cord thrown around your neck, hood over your
24 head, hearing your husband slaughtered in the next room
25 with a butcher knife? How does it feel to know that
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1 you, too, will be restrained and stabbed 41 times?
2 Leno, where were you on August 10 th, 1969? Where are
3 you now? What’s the difference? Tell us. How does it
4 feel to have carving instruments shoved into your
5 abdomen, throat over two dozen times? Dozens of times.
6 What’s the difference living 50 years wit h your
7 children, playing with your grandson, Tony, your
8 grandchildren, your nephew, Lou, great -grandchildren or
9 lying mutilated and dead 18,250 days in a cold, black
10 coffin? Who were you then? Who are you today? What’s
11 the difference? Tell us, Leno. T ell us, Rosemary. How
12 can we make amends for Leslie Van Houten when none of us
13 can make amends for her dead? After her conviction in
14 1971, Petitioner Van Houten defiantly said, “Your whole
15 system is a game, you blind, stupid people.”
16 Commissioners, toda y you will determine how prophetic
17 that statement is. Considering the profound gravity of
18 her crimes, the cruel and sadistic nature, the
19 unspeakable suffering of her victims, the permanent loss
20 to our families, the poisonous repercussions of her
21 crimes to society even today, the inexplicable ,
22 disconnected minimization exhibited in her statements,
23 and the behavioral evidence of an entrenched sociopath
24 despite decades of rehabilitation, it is only just to
25 deny parole to Leslie Van Houten for the longest peri od
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1 of time permitted by law. The longest period of time
2 permitted by law. Thank you.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Thank you, sir.
4 MR. LAMONTAGNE: Um, my name’s Tony LaMontagne.
5 Um, I’ll spell it again for you. It’s L -A-M-O-N-T-A-G-
6 N-E. Um, I’m the oldest grandson of Leno and Rosemary
7 LaBianca from his oldest child, so I’m here to -- today
8 to represent the entire fam -- family, but the closest
9 part of the family to Rosemary and Leno. I’m going to
10 be 44 years old on my birthday this year. My pla ns are
11 to live life to its fullest, spend time with my loved
12 ones, and plan for a long future and all that that
13 brings. Never in a million years am I spending my time
14 planning to have someone invade my home, unprovoked, and
15 murder me and my family in cold blood. My grandfather,
16 Leno, and Rosemary were murdered on his 44 th birthday.
17 I just want that to sink in for a second. I look very
18 similar to him, and I’m here representing him today.
19 We’ve all sat through this gruesome act way too many
20 times to mention, and I’m not going to run through it
21 again, but please realize this isn’t just a story. I
22 mean, I know this is your first time in the -- in the
23 hearing, but this is not just a story. This is real,
24 and this continues to be real every single day. This
25 person did smeak -- sneak into my family’s home. This
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1 prisoner did brutally murder two of my loving and caring
2 family members and did it with an aware mind as to their
3 actions. This prisoner has proven that they have the
4 ability to s -- to have serious lapses in judgement that
5 have allowed her to commit the most hideous crimes
6 imaginable. She also has the ability to influence
7 others. These are things that can be done regardless of
8 your age. We’ve also talked a lot about remorse today,
9 and, uh, one of the biggest signs to somebody that’s
10 remorseful is an apology. Not an apology to you or not
11 an apology to you, but directly to the family members.
12 She’s been in prison for -- I don’t even know -- 40-
13 whatever years? And not one time has there been an
14 attempt to contact the family members directly to
15 apologize. I mean, again, she’ll say it to you guys in
16 here because that’s what she wants you guys to hear, but
17 there’s no -- no real remorse there. The role of
18 government is to keep its citizens safe. By a llowing a
19 proven, experienced manipulator and cold -blooded killer
20 back into the streets of California would show a lack of
21 concern for the safety and well being of its citizens.
22 How would it sit with you if she came into your family’s
23 home after being rel eased with a bunch of her new family
24 and friends to recommit this outrageous crime?
25 According to a recent statistic that I saw online --
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1 cause we all have access to all the statistics we need -
2 - seven out of ten criminals are arrested again within
3 three years in California, and it’s the highest in
4 California than it is in any other state. This Panel
5 has the ability to get things right this time. Governor
6 Brown overturned the -- this Board’s recommendation last
7 time, as he recognize s that someone that has committed
8 this type of crime, uh, in the past is always a threat
9 to let into society. Please see to it that this fight
10 doesn’t have to continue every -- every year for the
11 rest of our lives and allow the victims the ability to
12 heal from this wound. I ask that you deny this parole
13 for the maximum allowable tim e by law. Thank you.
15 That’s everybody. Okay. At this point, we’ll recess
16 for deliberations. Time is approximately 2:20.
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Off the record.
18 R E C E S S
19 --oOo--
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 CALIFORNIA BOARD OF PAROLE HEARINGS
2 D E C I S I O N
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Back on the
4 record.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And this is in
6 the matter of Leslie Van Houten, V -A-N H-O-U-T-E-N, CDC
7 Number W-13378. Today’s date is September the 6 th,
8 2017, and the time is approximately 3:10 p.m. All the
9 parties previously in the room have returned to the room
10 again with the exception of the victims’ family and
11 representatives. They’ve left. Um, and we ’re here for
12 the pronouncement of the Panel’s decision. I’m one of
13 the Commissioners that likes to let you know right up
14 front what the decision was, and the Panel today finds
15 you suitable for parole, ma’am. By way of background,
16 we see that you came to CDCR after the third trial on or
17 about August the 17 th, 1978. Came from the County of
18 Los Angeles. It was a first -degree murder and a
19 conspiracy to commit first -degree murder which arose out
20 of their Case Number A253156. Um, you were sentenced to
21 two seven-to-life terms to run concurrent. The victims
22 in this case were Rosemary LaBianca and her husband,
23 Leno A. LaBianca. Now, the Panel notes that when a
24 prisoner’s committed her controlling offense as defined
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1 in Subdivision A of Penal Code Section 3051 prior to
2 attaining eight -- I’m sorry -- twenty-three years of
3 age, the Board shall give great weight to the diminished
4 culpability of juveniles compared to adults, the
5 hallmark features of youth, any subsequent growth and
6 maturity of the prisoner in reviewing the prisoner’s
7 suitability for parole pursuant to Penal Code Section
8 3041.5. And in this case, we read and considered the
9 rec -- record before us, which includes the Central File
10 -- the huge Central File, the prior Board reports, the
11 Comprehensive Risk Assessments both past and current,
12 um, and the current one did take into consideration the
13 diminished culpability of juveniles as compared to
14 adults, the hallmark features of youth, any subsequent
15 growth and maturity of you. We also considered --
16 excuse me -- um, uh, written statements submitted by,
17 uh, family members, friends, and -- and s -- school
18 personnel, faith leaders, and -- and -- and the like who
19 have known you for a number of years and c an attest to
20 your growth and maturity, and quite a number of the
21 letters that -- in support spoke of knowing you for many
22 years, several decades many of them, and have noticed
23 the growth and maturity of you, and that was indicated
24 in the record. We also c onsidered the input, uh,
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1 received from the public, uh, both positive and
2 negative, uh, today. There was just a plethora of -- of
3 responses, both in support of parole and in opposition
4 to parole. We also considered the, uh, letter from the
5 Los Angeles Police Department which opposes parole.
6 Whenever a body actually itself opposes parole, we put -
7 - we like to acknowledge them, and the LA Police
8 Department currently and -- and -- and continually has
9 opposed your parole. We also reviewed the confidential
10 portion of the Central File. Uh, quite a number of
11 documents in there, but -- that relate to you and
12 anything negative. You saw from our memo to you that
13 there is really nothing there and certainly n othing t --
14 uh, anywhere current that resi -- relates to you in any
15 negative way in your confidential file. Um, we, uh,
16 also considered the testimony presented at this hearing.
17 Now, the Panel wishes to incorporate several documents
18 into the record. They were partip -- particularly
19 helpful for our decision today. First being th e
20 probation officer’s report. The p robation officer’s
21 report was written contemporaneous to the Life Crime. I
22 want to say it’s been a lot of years, but it was written
23 way back then. It was helpful for us to get a sense of
24 environment, um, not only with you, uh, in the goings on
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1 around you, but also with the victims and the community.
2 Um, it -- that document was very helpfu l, uh, so -- and
3 -- and it’s not as if, um -- well, at least me -- I’m
4 old enough to know -- remember these, and I was a young
5 law enforcement officer when these crimes were
6 committed.
7 UNKNOWN VOICE: I remember.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So, um, uh, you
9 know, it -- it was one of those things that just helped
10 us get a better sense of what was going on there, cause
11 when you’re in the public, you don’t have a good sense
12 of it.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Um, you get
15 whatever you’re given. Uh, and -- and that report was
16 very helpful from that perspective. We also would
17 incorporate the Appellate Court opinion. The justice s
18 opined briefly what your case was about. Um, that was
19 helpful. Um, and they outlined that your cas e was about
20 the -- the -- the murder of the LaBiancas, um, and then
21 the participation in the, uh -- I hesitate to use the
22 term family. I hate using it with regard to this. I --
23 I use the word cult --
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- um, cause I
2 don’t think it’s an appropriate use of the word family
3 cause I -- I think we all think of something of family
4 far different than that.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIO NER ROBERTS: All right. Um,
7 we would incorporate the progress reports, uh, and prior
8 Board reports. They speak to the -- when we talk about
9 growth and maturity of you over the decades, um, they’re
10 very helpful from that perspective. Um, how you kind of
11 languished for a few years, and you’ve talked about
12 that. You’ve been very open about how the first three
13 years of your current incarceration -- how things were
14 wrestled with and so forth, but clearly, they help
15 document, um, your -- your change. Uh, and they’re very
16 helpful from that perspective. And of course, the most
17 current. You still talk about the -- the programming
18 and the kind of things you’re involved in -- very
19 supportive and very helpful. We would incorporate the
20 Comprehensive Risk Assessm ent most currently. Uh, the
21 others have already been incorporated, and this one is
22 actually c -- incorporated for the last hearing, and I’m
23 speaking to the Comprehensive Risk Assessment done by
24 Dr. Croft of an interview that occurred here at the
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1 California Institution for Women on or about February
2 the 2nd, 2016. That document was very helpful. It’s
3 more current. It spoke to a lot about you. It spoke to
4 who -- your life before the Life Crime, you r growing up,
5 the dysfunct ionality and -- and some of that I -- I --
6 how it was ideal as -- as a youngster.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Uh, and then how
9 it -- it changed. And it was very helpful, uh, for
10 getting an understan ding of you prior to the Life Cri --
11 Crime. It was also helpful discussing you around the
12 time of the Life Crime, and y -- then the Life Crime
13 itself. Again, in this side of the table, we’re trying
14 to get a -- an understanding of who you were then and
15 why you were who you were then and then who we’ve got
16 sitting before us today, and that changes what’s
17 important to us. Um, it has -- that change rendered
18 you, uh, no longer an unreasonable risk to the public
19 safety. And you have to have kind of a baseline
20 understanding of that, and in those documents, including
21 this Comprehensive Risk Assessment, helped us with that.
22 So it was helpful from that perspective. It was also
23 helpful to get a clinician’s insight, uh, uh, and sense
24 of you and your future risk of violence. Um, we heard
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1 today thrown around a lot sociopath and all those
2 things, and those are things that are really in a
3 clinician’s vernacular, and what th at really means as a
4 -- a non-clinician , um, I -- we rely upon their
5 technical wherewithal and knowledge, and then finally,
6 their structured professional opinion as to your current
7 risk of danger. So it’s very helpful from that
8 perspective, too. Doesn’t ma -- it’s not the end all,
9 the be all, but it’s certainly helpful, especially when
10 people start throwing around sociopath and issues and s
11 -- statements like that. Cause those are the people in
12 the know. Um, we would incorporate the transcripts,
13 particularly transcripts of the April 14 th, 2016,
14 hearing that occurred here in this very room, uh, with
15 Commissioner Zarrinnam and Deputy Commissioner Lam. Um,
16 the Deputy, uh, DA was right. There were some issues
17 today we didn’t delve into s -- wholeheartedly. I asked
18 you w -- was that accurate. You said it was. And some
19 of those things aren’t going to change and didn’t need
20 to change. The things that we felt were important to
21 discuss in change and so forth today, we discussed. Um,
22 so we incorporate that cause there were cer -- some
23 things that were, uh, very good conversations that you
24 had. Um, and so not needing to repeat some of it, and
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1 some of it we did have to repeat. This has to be done.
2 But certainly we felt that was a very good hearing, and
3 -- and we disc -- and many of the issues. I have to
4 tell you when I was reading that, I w -- you would s --
5 make a statement, and right in my head would pop up --
6 uh, hey, what about -- and then you’d -- you’d see
7 Commissioner Zarrinnam say -- hey, what about -- just as
8 if I was sitting in that chair. And so I have to say,
9 um, you know, that -- that I certainly understand where
10 he got to and where they got to, uh, and, uh, today we
11 understood that. We got to a same kind of a point. Um,
12 and it’s -- was very helpful from that perspective. Um,
13 we would incorporate Governor Brown’s, uh, July 27 th,
14 2016, reversal. Most important for us are, uh, the
15 issues the Governor had and trying to identify any, uh,
16 corrective statements or anything that yo u can help en -
17 - enlighten the Governor. He’s not here. He has a very
18 difficult decision to make. He, uh, doesn’t get to ask
19 the questions he wants to ask and set here with us. So
20 we try to do that, and that’s why I think that one
21 paragraph was of bigg est concern. He kind of boiled it
22 down to one paragraph, and we tried to answer that
23 question as best you can. Again, much of this is trying
24 to make rationality out of something that’s not
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1 rational. And so, uh, trying to make it understandable,
2 um, when it’s truly not understandable. Um, so, uh, we
3 attempted to do that today, so we would incorporate that
4 from that perspective. Now, we did mark five exhibits,
5 did we not?
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERA NTZ: We did.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And they were?
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: They were, uh,
9 Number One, uh, the August 15 th, 2017, acceptance letter
10 from Roxie Rose Transitional Housing Program. Number
11 Two, the clinical ( inaudible) intimate partner battering
12 report. Number Three, the timeline that you provided
13 for us. Number Four, the Hoyt interview transcripts.
14 Number Fine -- Five -- the Steinberg psychological
15 report.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Now, we marked
17 several of those exhibits. W -- I’ll be honest with
18 you. We didn’t give it much weight because there was
19 speculation, there’s talking about things .
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: They were
22 interesting, and I -- I allowed that to be put on the
23 record cause your attorney would like the Governor to
24 have a view of that. Uh, we did. Again, there may be
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1 changes between now and the time the -- the Governor
2 gets the case that there may be actua l verification of
3 stuff. Um, and quite frankly, it really wasn’t the
4 focus of the Panel today. To be honest, it was more
5 about things already discussed, already been on the
6 record, and just clarification of those things. Um, so
7 we did allow those to be on the record and part of the
8 record, and so they’re there for the Governor to look
9 at. All right? Um, now, the fundamental consideration
10 when we make a parole eligibility decision is the
11 potential threat to public safety upon an inmate’s
12 release, so accordingly, a denial of parole must be
13 based upon evidence in the record of the inmate’s
14 current dangerousness . There was much talk today about
15 Lawrence. Um, I am a Commissioner that has used the
16 very argument the Governor has used on -- on a case
17 where I felt that the -- the crime itself transcended
18 Lawrence. Um, and this Panel considered that and looked
19 at that, and we did -- we felt that applied to you,
20 cause we think there is a very unique set of
21 circumstance where Lawrence, um, acknowledges there may
22 be. That -- that has to be very unique, and when we
23 looked at your case, we didn’t feel compelled to that.
24 Not that others maybe, perhaps in that group might not
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1 apply to, but when we looked at th e circumstances of
2 you, we didn’t feel compelled to just say the Life Crime
3 is it. All right? Um, so we s -- felt Lawrence was the
4 controlling law in this case, and so we stuck to
5 Lawrence. All right? And -- and so Lawrence tells us
6 there has to be a c urrent risk of dangerousness from
7 you. All right? Now, it is having those legal
8 standards in mind and after giving great weight to the
9 diminished culpability of juveniles compared to adults,
10 the hallmark features of youth, and any subsequent
11 growth and m aturity of you, we find that you no longer
12 pose an unreasonable risk of danger to society or a
13 threat to public safety and, therefore, we found you
14 suitable for parole today. Now, we acknowledge that
15 there record -- the record does reflect some
16 circumstances tending to show unsuitability for parole,
17 which were discussed by the Panel during its -- its
18 deliberations, but we felt those things were far
19 outweighed by circumstances that support parole. Our
20 job is not a yes-no job. Our job’s a weighing job. We
21 don’t have -- some people talk about ( inaudible)
22 evidence. That’s not our standard. Our standard is to
23 take all this in and to weigh it. And does public
24 safety outweigh your release? Okay? And -- and looking
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1 at that and looking at the balance of those things, we
2 felt, um, public safety did not outweigh that. There
3 were some circumstances, but they were far outweighed by
4 other circumstances that support parole. Now, this
5 decision does not dimi nish the fact that the crimes
6 committed by you, ma’am, we re heinous, cruel, and
7 brutal, um, and they showed an extreme callous disregard
8 for the lives and suffering of others. In this case,
9 you became a party, uh, willingly, uh, and, uh, I asked
10 you -- the key question for me was -- you went into that
11 house -- did you intend to kill those people? You said
12 you did. You went in there with full intent to kill
13 those people. That was the plan. Um, and you accepted
14 responsibility for that. But what was this all for?
15 Again, um, it -- it -- it shows a -- a actual heinous
16 act of this -- this poor couple, um, midlife, um, nice
17 people by all respects, loving people, had a lovely
18 family who -- who to this day have not recovered --
19 obviously have not recovered fro m that and may never,
20 and, uh, our -- our hearts to out to them. But, um, you
21 participated in the brutal, uh, stabbing of, uh,
22 Rosemary, and you were just as responsible and you said
23 that today as, uh, Tex was for stabbing the others, and
24 because of your p -- participation in the group -- the
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1 cult, um, you were just as responsible for all these
2 other murders.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Those that
5 occurred before and th ose that occurred after. Cause
6 your participation in the group is in a way supporting
7 of it. And you acknowledged that today. Your actions
8 again resulted in the death directly of Rosemary and we
9 believe directly of, uh, Leno. And this was all about
10 selfishness, all about you, what you were going to get
11 out of this and what you felt you had to do to -- to,
12 uh, strengthen your, uh, position in the group. Now,
13 the Supreme Court has ruled that after a long period of
14 time, and there has been a long period o f time, uh,
15 immutable factors such as the commitment offense, prior
16 criminality, and I want to speak to that briefly. You
17 did have prior criminality. It wasn’t violent. Uh, we
18 -- we talked today about burglaries, one that wasn’t on
19 the -- the official g roup there. You talked about
20 burglarizing your own father. You burglarized your own
21 father’s place who loved you and you loved him, uh, to
22 support and -- and, uh, show the group you’re -- you’re
23 up for all of this. Um, so you did have prior
24 criminality. Again, not particularly violent, but you
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1 did have criminality. And unstable social history. And
2 there’s a caveat to that, and I’ll talk about that in a
3 minute. As a youth, that weighs in your f avor, but as
4 an adult, it would not. Um, the do -- the -- the
5 Supreme Court tells us that these things may no longer
6 indicate a current risk of danger to society in light of
7 a lengthy period of positive rehabilitation. Now,
8 there’s been 48 years approxim ately, uh, since, uh, the
9 -- this horrible, horrible, uh, crime, uh, happened.
10 And many of the circumstances that tend to show
11 suitability pursuant to Title 15, Section, uh, 2402,
12 Subdivision D, are present. Specifically, we found the
13 following. With re gard to the diminished culpability of
14 juveniles compared to adults, I know your attorney
15 submitted some documents. This Panel’s well versed and
16 has been for quite a number of years in the, uh,
17 diminished culpability of juveniles compared to adult s.
18 It starts with the -- the science of it. The brain
19 science tells us that the youthful brain is not fully
20 developed, and that’s the frontal cortex or the front
21 part of your brain, and the scientists tell us and show
22 us through all kinds of graphs and all kinds of
23 electromagnetic things, um, that it’s not well
24 developed. And that’s the part that they show, uh,
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1 controls our administrative functions. The -- the part
2 of the brain that -- that tells us -- hey, stop. What
3 are you doing -- makes you stop and consider
4 consequences. Makes you stop and -- hey, hey, hey, hey
5 -- what are you doing here? You know? Kind of says
6 that to ourselves. And if that’s not well developed,
7 then you’re likely to be impulsiv e, and you’re likely to
8 do these kind of things, and that’s a predictor for
9 youthful offending. Um, so you got great weight for
10 that we felt. We also considered whether you were
11 particularly vulnerable as a youth. And we know that
12 youthful offenders are vulnerable and susceptible to
13 negative influences, outside pressures, including family
14 or peer pressures. And there was quite a talk about
15 peer pressures. Um, and pressure s of older individuals
16 who you seemed to line yourself up with, and we
17 certainly saw that you were susceptible to that, um,
18 before even involvement with the Manson cadre. Um, you
19 were involved in me -- migrating towards youth who were
20 of somewhat like mind, but who also were using drugs and
21 used drugs then, and you got exposed to drugs and -- and
22 used drugs. Uh, and you were antisocial. And that just
23 kind of paved your way into this long succession of --
24 of bad stuff, um, bad decision s by you. And you were
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1 exposed to older peo ple, and we talked about that. Even
2 around the time of -- of, uh, your getting to the ranch,
3 older people telling you this is a great place, this is
4 -- things. You were susceptible to that kind of peer
5 pressure, that kind of influence. Um, not -- not even
6 to speak of then once you got to the ranch, what was
7 going on there. I think we have a good sense of that as
8 a very youthful offender. All right? It’s not an
9 excuse. It’s an understanding of how you could be
10 involved and how -- what you would be mor e susceptible
11 than an adult would with regards to that. And you get
12 great weight for that also. We looked to whether you
13 had limited control, because we know that youthful
14 offenders have limited control often of their own
15 environment and lack the ability to extricate themselves
16 from, uh, horrific , crime-producing settings. Um, and
17 to some degree, you did extricate yourself from the
18 dysfunctional part of it -- the family became
19 dysfunctional, and you decided to up and go do these
20 things, so there was some ability to extricate yourself,
21 but it’s how you extricated yourself and got yourself
22 into. And then finally, around the time of the, uh,
23 Life Crime and -- and just before, uh, the Panel has the
24 sense that, uh, you weren’t able to extricate yourself
25 LESLIE VAN HOUTEN W-13378 DECISION PAGE 16 09/06/17
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1 from that. Um, much of your own perception of things,
2 and our own perception becomes reality.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: It does.
6 PRESIDING COMM ISSIONER ROBERTS: Um, and it may
7 not be truly ru -- real, but we believe it to be. And
8 you clearly evidenced that today -- that you believed it
9 to be. There was clear evidence that there had been
10 some brutality, but, you know, for people you didn’t
11 agree and so forth, and particularly women. Um, does
12 not surprise us. Misogynistic is the word you used, and
13 we believe that probably was a condition going on there.
14 Um, so, um, from that, you weren’t able we felt to
15 really extricate yourself as a youthful offender. Okay?
16 Um, and so you got great weight for that. We also
17 considered whether as a youthful offender, were you less
18 susceptible to deterrents than adults, cause we know,
19 uh, adults are of greater ability to, uh, understand,
20 uh, consider the -- the res -- uh, the responses that
21 they’re -- they’re engaging in to, uh -- they have a
22 better dis -- uh, developed sense of responsibility, and
23 when you’re a youth, you don’t. Okay? And that leads
24 to, uh, rashness. That leads to impulsiveness. Uh, and
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1 when we looked at how you acted before the Life Crime
2 and during the time of the Life Crime, clearly we felt,
3 uh, you weren’t thinking about it. The only signal we
4 had that you were of some mind of t hat is when you
5 started destroying evidence and wiping down fingerprints
6 at the crime scene. Uh, all of a sudden, you got
7 concerned about getting caught for this. Well, that was
8 a pretty horrific scene, and so some realities might
9 start to take effect th ere that hadn’t before. And so
10 we felt in general this was something you get great
11 weight for also. Then we had to consider whether you
12 exhibited the hallmark features, uh, of youth at the
13 time of the Life Crime, uh, and we know that, uh, as
14 compared to adults, youthful offenders lack maturity and
15 -- and they have an underdeveloped sense of
16 responsibility, which leads to recklessness,
17 impulsivity, heedless risk taking, and transient
18 rashness. When you talked about what you did on the
19 night before, you wa nted to engage in this . It’s all of
20 that. It’s all of that. Um, and it -- and -- and
21 certainly you did not assess the consequences and
22 probably not till you were standing there and this had
23 all happened did you start to get some sense of the
24 consequences that might happen to you. So we believe
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1 that you did, uh, exhibit the hallmark features of
2 youth, and you got great weight for that. Then we had
3 to consider whether or not there were -- these were
4 transient chara -- youthful characteristics and whether
5 there have been or has been growth and maturity. So we
6 looked to your coming into prison, as you’re still a
7 youthful offender. And we see that you come into the
8 prison still a youthful offender o r just getting out of
9 it. Um, first couple years, not surprising to us, still
10 kind of rocky road for you. Uh, but then s -- right
11 after that, clearly the record reflects that you shed
12 yourself of that. Um, and it wasn’t totally -- it
13 wasn’t processed. Often it’s not like a light goes on.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: It’s one of
16 those things where things change and people worked on
17 you. Your mom worked on you.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: The warden
20 worked on you. Um, and we certainly felt, um, that, uh,
21 after that, 23, 24, um, you started to become, you know
22 -- shed -- you shed yourself of that and started to take
23 on a prosocial kind of, uh, response. Not that you
24 didn’t make mistakes. No t that you didn’t show bad
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1 judgement, uh, in a couple of situations along the way.
2 It happens. Um, but by and large, you showed growth and
3 maturity, and, um, so we felt tend to demonstrate that
4 these were transient youthful characteristics. And then
5 we had to consider -- has there been growth and
6 maturity? Clearly the record reflects growth and
7 maturity. Um, and when we talk about all the things
8 you’ve done, um, to improve yourself, um, so I wan t to
9 kind of talk about those. Uh, you were still a youth
10 when you came in. Um, you -- and af -- shortly after
11 you came in and over the following years, you began to
12 develop prosocial, uh, thought processes and activities.
13 You got yourself involved in y our education. You worked
14 on, uh, developing the skill sets and coping mechanisms
15 that you would need to abate, uh, the key issues that
16 were, um, at the core of why you became the person you
17 were. For instance, we talked today, uh, about the --
18 your low self esteem, and we talked about how’d you
19 address that? Well, education helped you address that.
20 Y -- no longer did you rely on others. Suddenly you
21 realized that you -- not suddenly -- you learned that
22 you could trust yourself, and you could take care of
23 yourself, and you didn’t need to -- to have others
24 direct you and so forth, and y -- you increased your own
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1 self assessment of yourself. And so it’s clear to us
2 that you developed the skill set s and coping mechanisms
3 that abate the core issues, uh, that were with you, uh,
4 at the time of -- of the Life Crime and even before the
5 time of the Life Crime. So we felt there has been
6 growth and maturity -- great growth and maturity in you.
7 We also believe you did not possess a significant
8 history of violent crime as a juvenile, uh, or as an
9 adult other than the Life Crime. And that weighed in
10 your favor. Often we have individuals come in who have
11 a lengthy history of violent crime. And it’s not
12 surprising at all when they come in and they’re involved
13 in a murder. You know? They -- they have a significant
14 history of violence. Um, you did not, and that weighs
15 in your favor. Um, we think you have a stable social
16 history now. We thought you did up t o age 14, and then
17 it started to destabilize. But we talked about how that
18 destabilization actually as a youthful offender weighs
19 in your favor. As an adult, if it continued on, it
20 would not weigh in your favor. But as an adult, you
21 have become, uh, ver y stable from that perspective, and
22 so we felt this is one of those things that weighed in
23 your favor, too. Kind of bifurcated there, and the part
24 that didn’t in the middle actually weighs in your favor
25 LESLIE VAN HOUTEN W -13378 DECISION PAGE 21 09/0 6/17
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1 as a youthful offender. We feel you showed, uh,
2 adequate signs of remorse. Lot of discussion about
3 remorse today, um, and our sense was, you know, ev --
4 everybody said you had remorse. The clinician -- not
5 everybody. The people in the record over the years said
6 you had remorse. You know, that’s just not good enough
7 for this Panel. We got to hear it from you. And we
8 went through that -- that exercise. I think part of
9 that exercise you were overthinking it. And w e were
10 looking for just simple t hings about what it was, and I
11 think it was overstated what you said. I only actually
12 gave you one, and one I kind of put into senses that we
13 talked about your, uh -- your 12 steps. The others --
14 once I -- you started to understand what I was asking,
15 you were responded rather well. You’re an educated
16 woman. So it’s just getting you to -- to put it out
17 there so everybody understands what it is. Our sense
18 was you have great remorse. Um, it’s sincere. It’s
19 heartfelt. And you feel horrific about what ha ppened,
20 um, beyond just the -- the two murders you were directly
21 involved in, but all of that. And all of it that’s
22 perkled (phonetic) down from it -- the per -- per --
23 it’s just kind of trickled down from it I guess I should
24 say, um, over the years. And you heard one of the
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1 victims talk about how, you know, there’re people still
2 citing back to that. That’s a reason for doing some
3 horrific action, so -- um, and you had good sense of
4 that, and you took responsibility for all of that. And
5 we didn’t get the sense today you were minimizing in any
6 way. Um, we didn’t get the sense today that you r s --
7 your discussions of having stabbed -- in the past, there
8 was some minimization of that, but we didn’t get that.
9 The last Panel didn’t get that. Um, and our sense was
10 today you take full responsibility for what you did. We
11 also believe you’re of an age that reduces the probabi -
12 - probability of recidivism. You’re 68 years old. We
13 know statistically, pe ople that reach that fifth decade
14 of life are less likely to become involved in
15 recidivism, particularly re ci -- recidivism in a violent
16 way. You’re well past that. Um, your prison record
17 suggests that’s all true. Um, when we’re talking about
18 age, we also consider the three -judge panel’s concerns,
19 uh, and that is to take into consideration your advanced
20 age, your length of confinement, and your physical, uh,
21 limitations if any and how they impact your future risk
22 of violence. And like the clinician, we feel they
23 mitigate it. Um, you do currently have a physical
24 limitation. Uh, but we think that’s temporary. Um,
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1 it’s not something that would, uh, aggravate in any way.
2 Some people it does, but n ot in your case. Um, so we
3 felt weighing all those things, too, they also mitigate
4 your risk for future violence. We feel you’ve engaged
5 in suitable activities that indicate an enhanced ability
6 to function within the law upon release, uh, and you
7 lack any serious rules violations while in prison. Uh,
8 and we -- so we found that, uh, you’ve been involved in
9 just a plethora of things before this hearing. Um, b --
10 before the last hearing. You’ve been involved in the
11 Victim Offenders Education Group, the Actors Gang, and I
12 -- I want to make sure everybody understands this. It’s
13 not about acting. They have done a number of
14 presentations to the Board. It’s about getting in touch
15 with your, um -- y -- your feelings and emotions, uh,
16 and it’s not about how to go in and act -- to put on an
17 act for the Board. But some people hear that and they
18 think they wrong thing, and that group has worked pretty
19 hard about at least letting us know what that means.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And so we
22 understand that. Um , you’ve been involved in, uh,
23 Transitional Reentry, uh, Victim Awareness, uh, to speak
24 of just a few things. You’ve been a facilitator.
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1 You’ve been a tutor. Um, and you’ve been giving back
2 for quite a number of years. There was some discussion
3 today about, uh, pleasing and, uh -- and -- and that
4 with you. We didn’t get the sense this was a overt need
5 to please others. More we got a sense of it was a need
6 to help others. Um, not pleasing them, but helping you.
7 And by helping them, you were pleasing yourself. That’s
8 the sense we got out of this. I just want everybody to
9 understand what we got. We know people are talking
10 about that, but we didn’t get the s -- the sense that
11 you’re out there, uh, s -- in -- in such a situation
12 where you feel you’ve got to please others. Um, it’s
13 more of you please yourself by helping others and giving
14 back. And I -- we -- that’s the sense we took away from
15 that today. Um, we feel you’ve made realistic plans for
16 release. You plan to go to the Rox ie Rose, uh,
17 Transitional Housing in San -- San Bernardino. Um, you
18 have job offers. Um, you had skill sets when you came
19 into prison. Um, you said you wish you’d stayed in
20 school and s o forth. Uh, to the degree you can use
21 those skill sets, but we think you have other skills
22 sets, and you talked about you’re planning to help grant
23 writing and so forth. Um, and you did have job offers.
24 So the code says you have to have job offers or you have
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1 to have, uh, marketable skill sets. People call them
2 vocations. And some people call them education. Uh,
3 and many times, education works as vocation, and it
4 might in your case also.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So we feel your
7 Parole Plans were just fine. We also gave significant
8 weight to the Comprehensive Risk Assessment by Dr.
9 Croft. And again, the doctor met with you on February
10 the 2nd, 2016, before the last hearing. The doctor did
11 take into consideration the diminished culpability of
12 juveniles compared to adults, the hallmark features o f
13 youth, and the subsequent growth and maturity of you.
14 And the doctor felt you presented a low risk. The
15 doctors felt you presented a low risk when he saw you
16 previously. Um, in fact, when you look across, you
17 know, a decade or more of Risk Assessments, um, they all
18 find you to be a low risk for future violence. A -- and
19 you can’t ignore all those clinicians saying it . It’s
20 not something that, um, is so overwhelming that some
21 other things couldn’t override that, but it is something
22 to take notice of when so many different clinicians have
23 talked to you and know about the crime. It’s not like
24 any of this is, you know, unheard of. Um, and all of
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1 them, uh, have talked with you, looked at everything,
2 and found you to be a low risk. Um, that -- that had
3 some compelling piece to it. Okay? So we gave
4 significant we ight to the current doctor’s report and
5 did not ignore the other reports. Anything you’d like
6 to add?
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: I would just add
8 I agree obviously. Um, despite how bad, horrible the
9 crimes were, there’s no nexus for current dangerou sness.
10 Uh, we also noted your lack of any discipline record in
11 prison. You’ve been in prison for 40-something years,
12 and all you have is one custodial chrono for, uh,
13 talking in 1981. Um, and then, uh, we also looked at
14 confidential, but we didn’t rely on anything in there
15 because of relevance and the passage of time. That’s
16 it.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I just want to
18 make it clear. This crime -- many of the murders -- all
19 -- let’s say of all the murders that, uh, I’ve dealt
20 with over the course of working with the Board, they are
21 ugly crimes when they’re committed, they are ugly crimes
22 the day after, they’re the ugly crimes today, and
23 they’ll be ugly crimes a century from now.
25 LESLIE VAN HOUTEN W -13378 DECISION PAG E 27 09/06/17
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: That’s not going
2 to change.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So, uh, we get
5 that. All right? All right. Now, based on these
6 findings, we conclude that you no longer pose an
7 unreasonable risk of danger or a threat to public safety
8 if released from prison at this time, so accordingly we
9 found you suitable for parole. Now, this is not a final
10 decision. I told you the Board has 120 days to review
11 and finalize. They’ll notify you i f there’s any issues.
12 Um, then the Governor will get an additional 30 day s.
13 You know the -- you know the routine on that or at least
14 -- I won’t say the routine. You know what happens on
15 that. You’ve seen that.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: We don’t know if
18 there’s a change, if we covered -- we hope we covered
19 the Governor’s issues and that he, um -- his -- his
20 questions were answered, uh, to the best we tried to do
21 that today. Again, he’ll notify you as he has in the
22 past if there is any change. With regard to term
23 calculation, the Board in a separate decision t --
24 determined your, uh, term, uh, and that was done I think
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1 between the last two hearings, uh, on miscella neous
2 decision. And they defined your term as 180 months.
3 That’s your base term. Um, we note that you have served
4 39 years on the Life Term and that of that 39 years, we
5 didn’t find any that you were ineligible for. We went
6 and looked -- what -- and looked at that 115. It’s
7 marked as a 128. It says it’s a chrono.
8 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Mm.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: So we didn’t
10 feel you were ineligible any of those years. So that
11 means 39 years you can get credit for. And we felt of
12 those 39 years, there were 12 years that were exemplary,
13 and they’ve been the last 12 years. And, uh, well,
14 actually there’s two years, but we thought your eight --
15 your 1982 bachelor’s and your 1984, uh, master’s --
16 clear signs of exemplary work. You don’t find m any
17 inmates that come in here and get their master’s or
18 their bachelor’s. That’s a lot of work. That’s a lot
19 of hard work. And that’s exceptional work. And we feel
20 you get exceptional credit for that. And then we
21 noticed that in ‘07 Chaffey tutoring -- you -- you
22 finished that, and then you’ve been tutoring in
23 everything since then. So from ’07 to 2016, each of
24 those years, we felt you -- you deserved exemplary
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1 credit for that and more. There was just so much to
2 list that we didn’t list it. We left it with that. All
3 right? So that would suggest there are 12 years ’
4 exemplary credit. And e xemplary credit’s six months per
5 year for each of those years as opposed to the normal
6 four. That left 2 7 years of -- of normal, which is --
7 at 4, which -- so the normal 108 months of positive
8 credit, the exemplary 72 months of positive credit, and
9 so we gave you, um, uniquely, 180 months of positive
10 credit. And your term was 180 months. So, um, what’s
11 that mean? What it means -- it’s -- it’s gone. Time
12 has come and gone. It should pr -- surprise nobody even
13 if we didn’t add credits, time is gone.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: It’s -- it’s --
16 you’ll -- you’ll be out of there. Okay? So what do we
17 have to do now? Let’s talk about terms of conditions of
18 parole. Uh, I know the last Panel gave you conditions
19 of parole. Ours might be a little different. Okay?
20 Um, you need to know that when you’re released from
21 prison, you’ll be subject to all the general conditions
22 of parole as found in Title 15 -- I’m sorry -- Penal
23 Code Section 2512 as well as any special condition of
24 parole found and imposed by the Department of Adult
25 LESLIE VAN HOUTEN W -13378 DECISION PAGE 30 09/06/ 17
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1 Parole Operations as permitted in Penal Code Section
2 2513, and based upon that statutory authority, we order
3 the following special conditions of parole. First, we
4 order that you participate in a psychiatric evaluation
5 and treatment deemed appropriate for your successful
6 adjustment on parole. It’s called a Parole Outpatient
7 Clinic. We want you go to there shortly after you’re
8 released. There is a lot of pressures. A lot of
9 stressors. A lot of things going on. And it’s hard for
10 a person who’s been in, especially down as long as you
11 have, to actually grasp what that is. And so we want
12 you to go to the clinician, and if the clinician says
13 you need more work in terms of coming in and seeing that
14 or -- or they say you need treatment, uh, of psychiatric
15 medications or whatever, we want you to comply with that
16 -- what the clinician says. It might be you go one
17 time. They say you’re doing fine. If you need any
18 problems, come back. We’re fine with that, too.
19 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Mm-hmm.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay? But we
21 realize the -- the huge amount of stressors that’s going
22 to happen when you’re released, so we’re ordering that.
23 Okay? And it’s all about your successful transition
24 back in society.
25 LESLIE VAN HOUTEN W -13378 DECISION PAG E 31 09/06/17
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2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: We want you to
3 succeed, not fail. All right? We would order that you
4 participate in antinarcotics testing. You haven’t used
5 drugs in here. Um, it -- it’s been a lot of years. But
6 we do know that the literature suggests sobriety in a
7 controlled environment such as a prison isn’t synonymous
8 with sobriety out there, and you talke d about that
9 directly. You said I know there’s alcohol out there and
10 there’s drugs out there. There’s some in here, but it’s
11 different out there. You acknowledge that. And so, uh,
12 to make sure that we keep you on the straight and narrow
13 cause you did have some months of straight and narrow --
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- and then you
16 fell back, so you have shown you’ve been in -- capable
17 of relapsing in the past after a good little stint of
18 being sober. Um, so we’re going to order you to get
19 tested, okay? As often or not as directed by the parole
20 agent.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Don’t be
23 surprised if initially it’s a lot, and then after they
24 get sensed you’re settled in and things, probably
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1 weighing off and then maybe not for a while, okay? All
2 right? We’d order that you not have any contact with
3 the victims’ family or next of kin. And I want to set
4 the record straight. Several of the victims indicate
5 that you have not mailed them letters, and for the
6 record, you cannot mail them letters. You are
7 prohibited from doing that. Um, now som e people do
8 write letters and send them to victims services or the
9 DA or something, but you are prohibited from directly
10 having contact with the victims, um, and while you’re on
11 parole, you are pro hibited from having direct or
12 indirect contact with the victims without the prior
13 written permission of your parole agent. I say that
14 because there are restorative justice programs where
15 they try to fix that if they can for people. I don’t
16 know that they can in this case, but if there are
17 efforts, do not get involved in that without the prior
18 written permission of your parole agent or you will come
19 back --
20 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Can I say something on that?
22 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: M -- Miss Van Houten has
23 tried to reach out before when she’s heard these, uh,
24 requests --
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2 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: -- and she’s not opposed to
3 where if -- if the victims’ family want to do that and
4 they can clear it with the, you know, parole officer,
5 it’d be -- it might actually do some healing.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Okay. Well, I’m
7 just putting it on the record.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I know there are
10 programs that do that, and if they do, don’t get
11 involved without your parole agent. So, um -- and so
12 let’s talk about between now and the time you’re at the
13 release gate or if we have to have another hearing. The
14 Panel recommends that you stay disciplinary free, that
15 you earn positive chronos. Keep doing the good stuff --
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: -- and hard work
18 you’re doing. And keep getting the self help and
19 participating in the self help that you’re getting. Um,
20 and with that, we’d like to wish you good luck, ma’am.
21 We’ll now conclude the hearing. The time is
22 approximately 4 -- I’m sorry -- 3:50.
23 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Thank you.
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: We’re off the
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1 record.
2 INMATE VAN HOUTEN: Thank you very much.
3 ATTORNEY PFEIFFER: Thank you both.
4 A D J O U R N M E N T
9 THIS TRANSCRIPT CONTAINS THE PROPOSED DECISION OF THE
10 BOARD OF PAROLE HEARINGS (BO ARD) ANNOUNCED AT YOUR
11 RECENT BOARD HEARING AND IS PROVIDED TO YOU IN
12 COMPLIANCE WITH PENAL CODE SECTION 3041.5, SUBDIVISION
13 (A)(4), AND CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS, TITLE 15,
14 SECTION 2254. THIS PROPOSED DECISION WILL BECOME FINAL
15 WITHIN 120 DAYS OF TH E DATE OF THE HEARING AS REQUIRED
16 BY PENAL CODE SECTION 3041, SUBDIVISION (B), UNLESS THE
17 BOARD NOTIFIES YOU IN WRITING BEFORE THEN THAT THE
18 PROPOSED DECISION HAS BEEN MODIFIED, VACATED OR REFERRED
19 TO THE FULL BOARD, SITTING EN BANC, DUE TO AN ERROR OF
20 LAW, ERROR OF FACT OR NEW INFORMATION PURSUANT TO
21 CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS, TITLE 15, SECTION 2042.
22 THEREAFTER, THE GOVERNOR HAS AUTHORITY TO REVIEW THE
23 BOARD'S DECISION AND AFFIRM, MODIFY, OR REVERSE IT
24 PURSUANT TO PENAL CODE SECTIONS 3041.1 AND 3041. 2.
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CERTIFICATE AND
DECLARATION OF TRANSCRIBER
I, DEBRA S. BEHUNIAK, as the Official
Transcriber, hereby certify that the attached
proceedings:
In the matter of the Life ) CDC Number: W-13378

Term Parole Consideration )
Hearing of: )
)
LESLIE VAN HOUTEN )
)
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTION FOR WOMEN
CORONA, CALIFORNIA
SEPTEMBER 6, 2017
08:55 A.M.
were held as herein appears. Further, this transcript
is a true, complete, and accurate reco rd, to the best of
my ability, of the recorded material provided for
transcription.
_________________________
Debra S. Behuniak
September 16, 2017
Dictate Express
Copyright 2017/All Rights Reserved by BPH
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SUBSEQUENT PAROLE CONSIDERATION HEARING

BOARD OF PAROLE HEARINGS

In the matter of the Life ) CDC Number: W-13378

CALIFORNIA INSTITUTION FOR WOMEN

BRIAN ROBERTS, Presiding Commissioner

LESLIE VAN HOUTEN, Inmate

CORRECTIONS TO THE DECISION HAVE BEEN MADE

DEBRA S. BEHUNIAK, Transcriber, DE

Case Factors.......... .............................. 116

Post-Commitment Factors............................. 177

Parole Plans.......... .............................. 188

Closing Statements.... .............................. 226

Recess............................... ...........158, 275

Decision.............. .............................. 276

Adjournment........... .............................. 310

Transcript Certificati on............................ 311

2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: On the record.

3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Good morning,

4 everyone. This is a Subsequent Parole Suitability

5 Hearing for Leslie Van Houten, V -A-N H-O-U-T-E-N,

6 California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation

7 Number W-13378. Today’s date is Se ptember the 6th, 2015

8 -- 2017. The time is approximately, uh, 8:55 a.m.

9 We’re located at the California Institution for Women,

10 and that’s in Corona, California. Miss Van Houten was

11 received by the California Department of Corrections and

12 Rehabilitation from the County of Los Angeles, and it

13 was under their Case Number A253156. It was for the

14 offense of Penal Code Section 187, murder in the first

15 degree. She was also convicted of Penal Code Section

16 182-187, which is conspiracy to commit first-degree

17 murder. She was sentenced to two seven -to-life terms to

18 run concurrent. She has a minimum eligible parole date

19 of August the 17th, 1978. She is a qualified youthful

20 offender pursuant to 3051 of the Penal Code, uh, changed

21 by SB261. She was 19, almost 20 y ears old at the time

22 of the Life Crime. Her youthful offender date is April

23 the 14th, 1989. Uh, she also qualifies as a elderly

24 parole candidate pursuant to the three -judge panel, uh,

25 and she was so qualified on August the 23 rd, 2009. The

2 in this case were Rosemary LaBianca, spelling L -A-B-I-A-

3 N-C-A, and her husband, Leno, L -E-N-O A. LaBianca. Now,

4 the hearing’s being recorded, so for the purpose of

5 voice identification, we’re going to go around th e room,

6 identify ourselves. To do that, we’ll state our full

7 name, spelling our last. We’ll start with myself, go to

8 the Deputy Commissioner, then we’ll come back to you,

9 Miss Van Houten. We’ll go down that side of the table.

10 Then what we’ll do is we’l l ask each of the, uh, family

11 members or the representatives of the family to step up,

12 state their full name on the Deputy District Attorney’s

13 microphone there, and, uh, your -- either your relation

14 to the victim or your reason for being here. If you’re

15 a representative, who you’re a representative for. Uh,

16 and then we’ll go around -- ac -- all of our -- and can

17 we come down? We’ll get -- uh, finish up there with the

18 press personnel who are here present. The officer

19 doesn’t need to put his name on the r ecord. I’ll take

20 care of it. Okay. All right. So let’s get started

21 with myself. Good morning, everyone. I’m Brian

22 Roberts, R-O-B-E-R-T-S. I’m a Commissioner with the

23 Board of Parole Hearings.

24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER POMERANTZ: Dale Pomerantz,