1

1 IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF ARIZONA

2 FOR THE COUNTY OF YAVAPAI
3

4 STATE OF ARIZONA, )
)
5 Plaintiff, )
)
6 vs. ) Case No. P1300CR201600966
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7 THOMAS JONATHAN CHANTRY, )
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8 Defendant. )
_ )
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13 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

14 BEFORE THE HONORABLE BRADLEY H. ASTROWSKY
15 TRIAL DAY SEVEN
16 AUGUST 2, 2018
17 Prescott, Arizona
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19

20

21

22 COPY
23
REPORTED BY
24 MINA G. HUNT
AZ CR NO. 50619
25 CA CSR NO. 8335

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1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2 For the Plaintiff:
3 YAVAPAI COUNTY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE
BY: SUSAN EAZER, ATTORNEY
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For the Defendant:
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LAW OFFICES OF JOHN M. SEARS
7 BY: JOHN M. SEARS, ATTORNEY
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1 I N D E X
2 EXAMINATIONS PAGE
3 WITNESS
4 RICH HOWE
Direct by Ms. Eazer 29
5 Cross by Mr. Sears 99
Recross by Mr. Sears 197
6 Redirect by Ms. Eazer 198
7
PAUL CLEMMONS
8 Direct by Ms. Eazer 200
Cross by Mr. Sears 203
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10 C L
ect Ms. Eazer 214
11 Redirect by Ms. Eazer 232
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PAUL CLEMMONS
13 Direct by Ms. Eazer 233
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1 Proceedings had before the
2 Honorable BRADLEY H. ASTROWSKY, taken on Thursday,
3 August 2, 2018, at Yavapai County Superior Court,
4 2840 North Commonwealth Drive, Camp Verde, Arizona,
5 before Mina G. Hunt, Certified Reporter within and for
6 the State of Arizona.
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (Proceedings continued outside the
3 presence of jury.)
4 THE COURT: P1300201600966, State of Arizona
08:36:54AM 5 versus Thomas Chantry. Note the presence of counsel
6 and the defendant.
7 I created a little written questionnaire to
8 hand out to the jurors this morning.
9 Brian, show the attorneys, please.
08:37:08AM 10 I'll tell them this is anonymous, not to put
11 their numbers on it.
12 Is that okay, Ms. Eazer?
13 MS. EAZER: Yes, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Mr. Sears?
08:37:27AM 15 MR. SEARS: It is. I'm sure you'll explain
16 that this is not instead of some other days. It's in
17 addition.
18 THE COURT: Correct. Yes. Thank you.
19 MR. SEARS: That's fine.
08:37:38AM 20 THE COURT: Let me hold on to those, Brian.
21 MR. SEARS: Judge, on this topic, we've looked
22 at our notes now, and when he think that Juror No. 5,
23 who was originally Juror No. 60, says he has a vacation
24 that begins on the 17th. We're a little unclear about
08:38:08AM 25 that. That's our recollection of his voir dire answer.

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1 THE COURT: We don't have a juror No. 5
2 anymore.
3 MR. SEARS: I'm sorry. He was -- he's now
4 Juror No. 2.
08:38:33AM 5 THE COURT: He was Juror No. 5. Let me look
6 at my notes.
7 I think you're right. I have a note he has a
8 vacation beginning August 17.
9 MR. SEARS: That's a heads up. We're not
08:38:50AM 10 there yet.
11 THE COURT: Sure.
12 MR. SEARS: We'll know something more, and we
13 still have two alternates.
14 THE COURT: We can talk about this at the time
08:38:57AM 15 of closings if we need to designate him an alternate or
16 not. Thank you for letting us know that.
17 The other thing is Mike Rogers -- I know he's
18 not present here today. Do you know if he's planning
19 on being present?
08:39:19AM 20 MR. SEARS: I know that he's not. Mr. Rogers
21 is a member of my client's extended family. He has
22 come here to be present for much of the trial. He is
23 deeply sorry for having disrupted the court. He wants
24 the Judge to know that he had no intention of being a
08:39:37AM 25 disruption or being disrespectful nor did he want to be

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1 perceived as arguing with the prosecutor in this case.
2 There are some things he would like to say in
3 his defense. He doesn't most of all want to be a
4 further disruption, so he will not ask the Court's
08:39:55AM 5 permission to come back to any further proceedings.
6 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
7 I was going to order -- I am going to order
8 that he's no longer allowed to be present for any court
9 proceedings or even in the courthouse itself. He's
08:40:14AM 10 trespassed from this entire building unless he has
11 other business here. I'm not sure he's from Arizona.
12 I will however permit him to appear, if we get
13 there, at any sentencing hearing or hearings.
14 Anything we need to address this morning,
08:40:38AM 15 Ms. Eazer?
16 MS. EAZER: No, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Thank you. Your first witness is
18 Mr. Howe?
19 MS. EAZER: That's correct.
08:40:43AM 20 THE COURT: Then Ms. L . Is that
21 accurate?
22 MS. EAZER: Yes. It's going to go straight
23 through --
24 THE COURT: You're calling Officer Clemmons?
08:40:55AM 25 MS. EAZER: Yes.

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1 THE COURT: And Chris Marley, Jr. All right.
2 Mr. Sears.
3 MR. SEARS: I wanted to speak to the possible
4 testimony of C L , D L 's mother.
08:41:14AM 5 Again, after court yesterday I went back and revisited
6 the Court's March 20 ruling and my motion pleadings
7 related to the Court's ultimate order in March of this
8 year limiting the testimony regarding D L .
9 Here's my concern: I appreciate the efforts
08:41:35AM 10 that the state says they've made to work with these
11 witnesses to give them rules and impress upon them the
12 hearsay part of this.
13 But the Court also said that admissions of the
14 defendant to any of these witnesses would be
08:41:53AM 15 admissible. So I wanted to explore that a bit further
16 because I think there is a possibility that this
17 witness, D 's mother, might be asked whether the
18 defendant, among other things, admitted spanking her
19 son.
08:42:08AM 20 And my view is that while her percipient
21 knowledge of his bruises and demeanor and those sorts
22 of things is within the Court's ruling of permissible
23 404(B) evidence.
24 My client is not charged with any crimes at
08:42:27AM 25 all against D L . I would submit that even

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1 admitting that he spanked D L is not an
2 admission that's incriminating to my client.
3 I interpreted the definition of "admission" in
4 the context of the Court's order as being incriminating
08:42:43AM 5 or inculpatory admissions as opposed to just
6 statements.
7 And one of the additional issues that this
8 would raise if the Court were to permit questions to
9 this witness about those statements by my client, then
08:42:57AM 10 it would, I think, tee up the need to cross-examine or
11 more about what those statements were, did he admit
12 bare-bottom spanking. Did he admit injuring or causing
13 bruising to this child.
14 That seems to move us, in my mind, quite a bit
08:43:18AM 15 away from what I thought the Court's originally ruling
16 was. Limited evidence of this nonvictim witness that
17 would be simply what people saw and heard sounds, not
18 hearsay statements of this witness.
19 The admissions part I don't think we explored
08:43:38AM 20 quite as much back either in the motion practice or in
21 your ruling on March 20.
22 THE COURT: Help me understand what you would
23 expect her to say if she was asked a question as to
24 this admission or statement by your client.
08:43:53AM 25 MR. SEARS: At her defense interview and in

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1 other documents provided in discovery, she will say, I
2 believe, that eventually Tom Chantry came during this
3 apology session, this lengthy process, and apologized
4 directly to her and D L for having spanked him
08:44:16AM 5 without her permission. And I believe she would say if
6 she -- that she accepted that apology.
7 That part of it --
8 THE COURT: This is sometime in 2000?
9 MR. SEARS: Yes. And before the church
08:44:38AM 10 council and before Tom Chantry left Prescott in early
11 2000.
12 THE COURT: Thank you.
13 Ms. Eazer, did you plan on asking her that?
14 MS. EAZER: This is now going to raise the
08:44:49AM 15 issue that I was going to try and see if I could get a
16 little snippet of the transcript from yesterday before
17 raising this issue.
18 Because yesterday when Mr. Sears was
19 questioning Mrs. E , the Court may recall and -- I
08:45:08AM 20 don't have the quotes written down -- he was asking her
21 about her reporting sexual abuse to the police when her
22 son came forward in 2015.
23 And then he said, but there was no sexual
24 abuse allegations. There was nothing to suggest there
08:45:25AM 25 was sexual abuse back in 2000? And she said no.

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1 I was surprised at how well she stuck to my
2 admissions, because I was shocked when Mr. Sears then
3 went on to say -- and I can't remember how he asked it.
4 I was so frozen that I wasn't writing notes.
08:45:41AM 5 He said, what evidence was there?
6 And the reason this was shocking is in her
7 interview with Mr. Sears he asked her -- and I listened
8 to it on the way home just to make sure I had my memory
9 correct. He asked her about there was just some
08:45:58AM 10 allegations of spanking back in 2000, and she said, no.
11 I would call it molestation.
12 And why would you say that?
13 And she spoke to D L . She told him
14 that. D came to her in 2000 when this was all
08:46:13AM 15 coming up in the church and told her about the
16 defendant pulling his pants down, spanking him. This
17 happened on numerous occasions. And then he would rub
18 his bottom.
19 And she says, who does that?
08:46:25AM 20 That's clearly sexual. And yesterday because
21 of the way Mr. Sears asked the question, very directly
22 asking the question, I didn't object because I thought,
23 well, he knows what she's going to answer.
24 And he opened the door by asking that
08:46:40AM 25 directly. And the witness said, I'm not allowed to say

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1 because it's hearsay.
2 I was really proud of her. And that's the one
3 that Mr. Sears thought was going to be off-the-charts
4 bad.
08:46:53AM 5 THE COURT: I would have let her answer.
6 MS. EAZER: That's why I didn't object. I
7 wasn't going to give her a nod to answer. That would
8 have been inappropriate.
9 Couple of things, Judge. As far as
08:47:06AM 10 L , the defendant's admissions obviously are
11 admissible in this case as well as what he didn't admit
12 to. And with respect to D L , W W and
13 M J , the church council testified. Mr. Sears
14 knows it's in the documents.
08:47:24AM 15 The defendant was confronted with spanking all
16 three of those children with their pants down. He
17 denied spanking all three of those children with their
18 pants down.
19 One of the things that Mr. Sears argued in his
08:47:38AM 20 opening or stated in his opening -- and I did write
21 good notes for this, and this is the theme of the
22 case -- all of these victims have exaggerated what
23 happened to them.
24 And Mr. Sears flat out said the defendant is
08:47:52AM 25 going to testify and you will hear none of this

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1 happened other than some spankings over the clothing.
2 No child was spanked with the pants down, never punched
3 M J .
4 And the only person who has remained
08:48:05AM 5 consistent in what they have said happened is the
6 defendant. I wrote that in quotes. The only person
7 that's remained consistent is the defendant, which is
8 true. He's denied all of this. He denied spanking
9 M in 1996 with the pants down.
08:48:22AM 10 Rich Howe and Mr. J went to him. He
11 denied it then. He denied spanking W in 1999, and
12 then he denied spanking again all three of the boys
13 with the pants down in 2000.
14 So I think that yes, C L would
08:48:38AM 15 testify that he was confronted with spanking D with
16 his pants down. He adamantly denied that and he
17 apologized. And it wasn't even an apology. He
18 admitted he spanked but he said I apologize for being
19 proud and thinking that I knew better what was good for
08:48:56AM 20 your son than you.
21 And C will say she was not happy with
22 that apology, that she accepted it because of pressure
23 she felt from the church. And she was heavily reliant
24 on the church. But she didn't feel he had admitted
08:49:11AM 25 what he had done.

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1 THE COURT: Let me stop you there. It's your
2 theory of the admissibility of her testimony concerning
3 what the defendant allegedly said to her a statement
4 against interest by a party opponent admitting to 404
08:49:30AM 5 activity, basically?
6 MS. EAZER: Correct.
7 THE COURT: I see it's admissible under that
8 theory, Mr. Sears. Help me understand why you believe
9 it isn't.
08:49:37AM 10 MR. SEARS: Now with the state's additional
11 proffer of what this witness would say, we have moved
12 from a simple declaratory statement that defendant
13 apologized for spanking D L without
14 permission -- which is what she said in her interview,
08:49:58AM 15 and she accepted his apology -- to now this far more
16 developed story about confronting him with bare-bottom
17 spanking of her son.
18 And I can see why the state would like to have
19 this evidence in. But that is going back to the whole
08:50:19AM 20 construct of the 404 hearing. The Court limited the
21 404(b) evidence in all instances to --
22 Detective Belling testified to on November 8, 2017. I
23 have that transcript available. I don't have it in the
24 courtroom today. I don't believe she testified at all
08:50:39AM 25 about those details from C S L .

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1 THE COURT: I don't agree with you. I don't
2 recall that.
3 MR. SEARS: Just on that basis now the state
4 is seeking to expand the scope of this Court's 404(B)
08:50:57AM 5 ruling with the express limitation that the 404(B)
6 evidence would be limited to whatever was testified to
7 at the November 8, 2017, 404(B) evidentiary hearing.
8 Remember the state had no witness other than
9 Detective Belling.
08:51:22AM 10 And so the Court, I think, quite correctly
11 said that would be the scope of that. It would
12 probably be answerable by a quick reference to that
13 transcript of November 8 and what Detective Belling
14 said. I think I have that transcript here.
08:51:39AM 15 So maybe that's the simplest way to approach
16 this issue. Ms. L 's testimony would be limited
17 entirely by what Detective Belling said at that hearing
18 and not what counsel would like to argue or expand
19 today.
08:51:55AM 20 THE COURT: Isn't the admission different?
21 MR. SEARS: I can see the analysis, but I
22 think the Court expressly ruled in this 404(b) ruling
23 on March 20 about the scope of the actual percipient
24 knowledge, what they saw and what they could hear, And
08:52:20AM 25 in that same ruling talked about admissions by the

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1 defendant.
2 But there has to be some notice to the
3 defendant, I would submit, in a 404(b) proceeding about
4 these admissions. Because while they may be offered as
08:52:34AM 5 an admission by a party opponent in this case, she's
6 not the mother of an alleged victim. She's simply a
7 witness out in the periphery of the case that the state
8 wants to bring in and put this defendant on trial for
9 that conduct.
08:52:49AM 10 Now, as part of that process the state wants
11 to expand on all these communications as if D
12 L was an alleged victim in the county indictment.
13 To me that's the bright line.
14 I may disagree with the Court, but the Court's
08:53:06AM 15 ruling was clear there was some part of this that was
16 404(B) that now we have turned this into a trial
17 involving D L and all these other things.
18 And it's going to be confusing to the jury. I
19 think 403 becomes important now about where are we
08:53:23AM 20 going with this beyond the testimony already in the
21 record from the W siblings and what they saw and
22 heard.
23 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. I don't
24 see the confusion. I see the testimony concerning the
08:53:40AM 25 admission as relevant and admissible because it is a

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1 statement against interest by the defendant admitting
2 to conduct akin to what he is charged with.
3 Whether or not the 404(b) evidence came in, I
4 would allow the statement to come in because I believe
08:54:02AM 5 it is a statement against interest where he's
6 acknowledging -- if you believe it. Ultimately it will
7 be up to the jury.
8 He's acknowledging engaging in discipline
9 behavior without the permission of a parent. That
08:54:17AM 10 was -- I'll leave it there. Whether it was a -- or
11 not. I don't remember what his admission was exactly.
12 So I think it's relevant. I don't see how it
13 confuses the jury at all. And we're not trying the
14 D L case. We're not getting into his
08:54:37AM 15 statements or any other allegations, just what people
16 observed.
17 MR. SEARS: If this testimony were to be
18 permitted, then what we have is 75 or 80 percent of the
19 evidence that the state would offer if he were a victim
08:54:54AM 20 in a count in this indictment. All that would be
21 missing would be his testimony.
22 And I always understood the basis of the
23 Court's 404(b) ruling on testimony of the W
24 children to be related because he was there and was
08:55:09AM 25 being disciplined, they say excessively, by the

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1 defendant at the same time.
2 The concern is that in order to rebut this
3 testimony, I would have to go even deeper into the
4 situation. So now the jury hears more than a 75 or
08:55:26AM 5 80 percent of the facts. They now hear the whole how
6 did D L come to be there, testimony from his
7 mother.
8 And it to me defeats the purpose of the
9 Court's limiting ruling because now we've expanded the
08:55:42AM 10 whole discussion of D L beyond the very
11 limited nature.
12 One final observation. We have not ever
13 addressed in this case the question of whether it is
14 against the law to spank someone's child without the
08:55:56AM 15 requisite intent to commit an assault, just the act of
16 spanking somebody else's child without the permission.
17 Is that a crime in Arizona? I would submit
18 it's not. Because you have to have the requisite
19 intent to commit assaults. The consent of the parent
08:56:11AM 20 is a different aspect because it goes to the
21 defendant's state of mind. Excessive punishment of any
22 child including your own under any circumstances can be
23 criminal obviously.
24 But to say this is an admission against
08:56:23AM 25 interest I think implies in the very statement that

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1 he's admitting that he committed some criminal act,
2 spanking the child without permission. The jury would
3 come to that conclusion if they heard this evidence.
4 There must be something inherently unlawful about
08:56:41AM 5 spanking somebody's child.
6 And then the question of what it is depends on
7 the degree and defendant's intent. Once we go down
8 that road, that's where the Rule 403 problem is.
9 THE COURT: Help me understand. You indicated
08:56:54AM 10 that if this comes in, it's going to open the door to a
11 whole different area of questioning. Help me
12 understand that. What do you mean by that?
13 MR. SEARS: What I would have to do, I would
14 have to cross-examine Ms. L about exactly what
08:57:11AM 15 this admission was. Did Tom Chantry ever admit to you
16 that he actually injured your son or intended to injure
17 your son.
18 Did he in fact vehemently deny that he spanked
19 him or anybody else with the pants down. Now we have
08:57:27AM 20 this conversation between these people about the
21 circumstances when this person and my client's conduct
22 towards him is not directly part of the indictment
23 against him, and we have now moved into a debate, for
24 want of better term, in court in front of the jury how
08:57:52AM 25 this all happened, what the arrangements were.

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1 Would I have to go into an explanation with
2 her and later with my client why D L was there
3 and what the defendant was doing with D L ?
4 It puts D L incrementally closer to
08:58:07AM 5 victim status in this case. That's where the confusion
6 is. Then you have to come back and say, ladies and
7 gentlemen, just make it clear D L is not a
8 victim. You're not going to hear from him. He's not
9 part of this case. But you just heard an awful lot
08:58:18AM 10 about what the defendant is alleged to have done to and
11 with D L .
12 THE COURT: I don't see how that is different
13 from the situation we have now based upon what I've
14 deemed admissible pursuant to 404(B). I don't see any
08:58:34AM 15 difference.
16 MR. SEARS: I wouldn't have to go anywhere
17 near as deeply into those topics if we stopped where we
18 are now and just added her observations of the bruises
19 and the things we would expect her to say about that
08:58:48AM 20 subject to the Court's strict limiting orders from
21 March.
22 But once we start talking about this
23 relationship and how she knows the defendant and how it
24 was that D became part of this group with the W
08:59:06AM 25 children, et cetera, then I wouldn't go there. I

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1 wouldn't need to go there.
2 It wouldn't be part of what we're doing if we
3 just limit the evidence presented to the jury to what
4 we are now plus the mother's observation of the bruises
08:59:21AM 5 and his general demeanor.
6 I wouldn't need to go into the relationship or
7 to explain what D L was doing or anything
8 about it. I would when it was permissible to do that
9 remind the jury that D L is not a victim in
08:59:37AM 10 this case and we have not heard from him.
11 It's certainly a tactical difference, but
12 there is just a proof difference. What I need to prove
13 to defend my client on these charges, I think, is
14 substantially different depending how far into this
08:59:52AM 15 conversation and these arrangements and agreements and
16 discussions between the party.
17 And the final thing is the state's proffer
18 here just a moment ago goes further and says she now
19 wants Mrs. L to testify about her opinions and
09:00:08AM 20 impressions of the genuineness and sincerity of his
21 apology.
22 THE COURT: Well, she can't speculate as to
23 what was going on in the defendant's mind. I agree
24 with you there. She can certainly talk about someone's
09:00:21AM 25 demeanor while they spoke. But she can't talk about

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1 her opinion as to whether it was -- he was being
2 sincere. She can talk about his demeanor. I agree.
3 MR. SEARS: Would she be permitted to talk
4 about how she received that apology, that she
09:00:40AM 5 personally was unsatisfied with it, that she personally
6 thought it was insincere? I think there is not a
7 nickle's worth of difference between that testimony and
8 the testimony the Court just described.
9 Again, I will respectfully suggest we don't
09:00:58AM 10 need to go anywhere near any of this if we stick to our
11 guns from November and March.
12 THE COURT: Again, I see the statement against
13 interest is different from the 404(b) evidence. I
14 don't find there is a notice issue because you had
09:01:12AM 15 notice of it. I don't find there is a confusion issue
16 or 404 issue. I'm going to admit that.
17 Anything else, Ms. Eazer?
18 MS. EAZER: No, Your Honor.
19 MR. SEARS: Could I ask a question for
09:01:29AM 20 clarification?
21 THE COURT: Sure.
22 MR. SEARS: Are you saying the state should be
23 permitted to ask this witness questions about what he
24 was accused of doing to her son and the other children?
09:01:43AM 25 THE COURT: No. That's not what we're talking

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1 about.
2 MR. SEARS: Just what he said?
3 THE COURT: Just what he said.
4 MR. SEARS: And that's a little confusing to
09:01:53AM 5 me. I understood from the state they want to elicit
6 testimony from her that she confronted the defendant
7 with these allegations of bare-bottom spanking of her
8 son and these other children and that was the
9 conversation.
09:02:05AM 10 Is that out of bounds?
11 THE COURT: I'd have to hear all the context.
12 MS. EAZER: She's not going to be asked about
13 what she was confronted to with respect to any of the
14 other kids, just her child.
09:02:16AM 15 And, again, it's always been the state's
16 intention to have Rich Howe and Eric Olson testify,
17 just as L J testified and T W will
18 testify, that the defendant was confronted about
19 spanking the respective child with their pants down,
09:02:38AM 20 and he denied it adamantly and said he only spanked
21 over the clothes.
22 THE COURT: Fair enough. That's not what he's
23 talking about. He's talking about when Ms. L
24 testifies.
09:02:50AM 25 MS. EAZER: Right. At this meeting was the

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1 defendant confronted with spanking D with his pants
2 down and confronted with the bruises that were seen on
3 D ?
4 THE COURT: Just talking about D ?
09:03:06AM 5 MS. EAZER: Absolutely.
6 THE COURT: That answers your question, then.
7 MR. SEARS: And the Court's going to permit
8 that?
9 THE COURT: Yes. It gives context to the
09:03:15AM 10 statement.
11 MR. SEARS: I thought the Court's ruling that
12 my client's admissions would be admissible. I'm not
13 sure how these statements of the mother to my client
14 that provoked or prompted or anticipated his response
09:03:36AM 15 are admissible because they now talk about matters
16 outside the scope of any ruling of this court.
17 Now we interject into the case all of a sudden
18 this allegation that Tom Chantry could have spanked her
19 child with his pants down. And that piles on the
09:03:54AM 20 allegations from these other children of that conduct.
21 But that was never brought up as 404(b)
22 evidence. It was not part of the Court's ruling. It
23 was not part of Detective Belling's November 8, 2017,
24 testimony.
09:04:07AM 25 And so once she says that, if the Court thinks

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1 that puts it in context and the defendant denies it,
2 then what are we to do about that allegation of
3 additional uncharged conduct on the part of my client,
4 another 404(b) act that's out there now in space for
09:04:26AM 5 the jury to consider? How do we now defend against
6 that?
7 THE COURT: It puts into context your client's
8 statement to her. That's why it's admissible. It is
9 not 404(b) evidence. She confronts him. He makes
09:04:50AM 10 admission. Without her saying what she confronted him
11 about, it doesn't put in context his admissions.
12 MR. SEARS: What if the statement was and did
13 you have a conversation with the defendant in this
14 case? Yes. And in that conversation did he tell you
09:05:06AM 15 that he was sorry for having spanked your son, D ,
16 without your permission?
17 That is what I think the admission against
18 interest is. Once she says I confronted him about
19 spanking my son with his pants down and maybe causing
09:05:25AM 20 injuries or whatever else she's going to say, and his
21 response was I apologize for spanking your son without
22 permission. And I didn't do those other things.
23 Now we have, I think, fully described a new
24 first-time-out-of-the-box 404(b) allegation that was
09:05:44AM 25 never provided to this court for consideration. And

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1 whether the defense has notice of that general content
2 or not, we're still entitled, I think, to rely on the
3 Court's rulings that limit the 404(b) evidence to what
4 was presented on November 8, 2017, and what happened.
09:06:00AM 5 If the Court wants to analyze this as
6 admissions against interest there, the problem is the
7 context in which the Court would permit the state to
8 draw -- just raises this 404(b) conduct.
9 Now she has said something specific about the
09:06:17AM 10 defendant that has never been substantively ruled
11 admissible 404(b). I think that's the conflict here
12 between the two rulings.
13 And then in general when you have conflicts
14 between two rules pointing in opposite directions
09:06:32AM 15 regarding admissibility, the Court is almost always
16 required or obligated to make a 403 analysis.
17 And here's where the 403 is prejudicial: My
18 client now in -- this is not 404(b) from victims in
19 charged counts of the indictment. Please remember this
09:06:51AM 20 is from somebody who is not a victim in this case.
21 Now we have this brand new story of D
22 L as one of the bare-bottom spanking victims. I
23 think that's highly prejudicial. It's something that
24 the state could have -- they knew back in November of
09:07:10AM 25 2017 and March of this year that it was unlikely that

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1 D L was going to testify. We had many
2 discussions on the record about that.
3 The Court could have offered that as 404(b).
4 The Court could have addressed it and the defendant
09:07:24AM 5 could have addressed it back in November or March.
6 THE COURT: I don't see how it's -- in a 403
7 analysis I don't see how it's prejudicial because it
8 puts your client's statements to the witness in
9 context.
09:07:51AM 10 MR. SEARS: Thank you.
11 THE COURT: Are we ready for the jury?
12 MR. SEARS: Are you going to take up the --
13 THE COURT: I'm going to first talk to them
14 about this issue.
15 MR. SEARS: Thank you.
16 (Proceedings continued in the presence
17 of jury.)
18 THE COURT: Before we begin with the first
19 witness, there is something I wanted to go over, a
09:09:50AM 20 scheduling issue. In a few moments Brian is going to
21 give you each a questionnaire for you to circle answers
22 yes or no. It has to do with potentially adding an
23 extra day of trial. That would be Friday, August 10.
24 This is not eliminating a day. This is adding
09:10:12AM 25 another day. Again, I'm asking you this questionnaire.

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1 I'm doing it anonymously. That's why I'm giving you
2 each separate ones.
3 Keep your eyes on your own. I don't want to
4 put anyone on the spot. The question is are you
09:10:33AM 5 available to come in to trial Friday, August 10, from
6 9:00 a.m. to 4:30?
7 You weren't told we have trial that day. So
8 if you have other plans or schedules, that's fine. If
9 you're available, let me know. If someone says no,
09:10:52AM 10 again, I'm not going to identify that person. But we
11 won't have trial on that day.
12 So I'm going to give these to Brian to hand
13 out to you to fill out.
14 (Pause in proceedings.)
09:14:31AM 15 THE COURT: Thank you. We will have trial,
16 then, on Friday, August 10.
17 Thank you.
18 With that, go ahead and call your next
19 witness.
09:14:58AM 20 MS. EAZER: State calls Rich Howe.
21 THE COURT: Sir, come up and be sworn.
22 RICHARD HOWE,
23 having been first duly sworn upon his oath to tell the
24 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
25 testified as follows:

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1 DIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MS. EAZER:
3 Q. Good morning. Could you please introduce
4 yourself.
09:16:47AM 5 A. My name is Richard Howe.
6 Q. Mr. Howe, do you live in the area of Prescott
7 or Prescott Valley?
8 A. Prescott.
9 Q. How long have you lived in Prescott?
09:16:57AM 10 A. 34, 35 years.
11 Q. Are you married, sir?
12 A. Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. Sorry. My wife is in
13 the gallery.
14 Q. How long have you been married did you say?
09:17:15AM 15 A. 45 years.
16 Q. And do you have children?
17 A. Three.
18 Q. Grandchildren yet?
19 A. Nine with one on the way.
09:17:26AM 20 Q. All right.
21 Mr. Howe, I want to talk to you about some
22 things that happened quite some time ago at a church
23 called "Miller Valley." Did you attend Miller Valley
24 Church?
09:17:40AM 25 A. Yes, I did.

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1 Q. For how many years do you think you attended
2 Miller Valley Church?
3 A. Somewhere between 27 and 28 years.
4 Q. Do you recall the approximate year that you
09:17:53AM 5 began attending Miller Valley Baptist Church?
6 A. 1987, '88.
7 Q. Did you at some point become an elder with the
8 church?
9 A. '91, '92.
09:18:09AM 10 Q. And how many years did you then continue to be
11 an elder with Miller Valley Baptist Church?
12 A. Until two and a half years ago.
13 Q. Tell us about the congregation at Miller
14 Valley, the type of church it was. We've heard it was
09:18:26AM 15 a smaller congregation. How many folks would you say
16 were in the congregation at any given time?
17 A. Between 40 and 60.
18 Q. Was it primarily families?
19 A. Yes. There were some retired people.
09:18:44AM 20 Q. And was the church involved in a number of
21 different ministries over the years?
22 A. One of the major ministries was Meals on
23 Wheels. On holidays when Meals on Wheels agency was
24 not delivering, we would prepare meals and go out and
09:19:05AM 25 deliver to the homes that normally got them on a daily

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1 basis.
2 Q. Was this only on holidays or did you sometimes
3 do it at different times?
4 A. Only on holidays.
09:19:15AM 5 Q. How many people would be involved in that?
6 A. In the actual process of Meals on Wheels?
7 Q. Preparation.
8 A. There would probably have been three or four
9 ladies maybe the day before started preparing the
09:19:31AM 10 ingredients. They would get there early in the
11 morning, and Meals on Wheels would provide the trays
12 and the tins and everything.
13 People would sign up, another 10 to 15 people
14 including children. We'd always take our kids. It's a
09:19:49AM 15 great learning experience for them to go and deliver a
16 meal to someone they didn't know.
17 I don't know. Maybe at least a third,
18 possibly half the church, would sometimes be involved
19 over the course of the five or six holidays we did
09:20:05AM 20 that.
21 Q. Now, we've heard testimony from a lot of folks
22 that there was church sermons on Wednesday. Wednesday
23 evenings?
24 A. Wednesday evening was a prayer meeting.
09:20:25AM 25 Q. There was a prayer meeting. Would lots of

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1 people come to church on Wednesday?
2 A. Not as many.
3 Q. Some did?
4 A. Yes.
09:20:32AM 5 Q. Some faithfully?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. On Sunday we heard there are a number of
8 different Bible studies, sermons, children's church --
9 A. It would be -- Sunday school would have been
09:20:47AM 10 at 9:30 and worship service at 11:00.
11 Q. Were there other prayer meetings, Bible
12 meetings and such on Sunday? Some folks said they went
13 to several --
14 A. There was Sunday evening service. So Sunday
09:21:01AM 15 school, Sunday morning and Sunday evening.
16 Q. Mr. Howe, one thing I'm going to ask you is to
17 wait until I finish my question. Wait until I
18 completely finish my question before you start
19 answering. She's got to take down everything we say.
09:21:18AM 20 Now, I want to kind of take you back to 1995.
21 Do you recall a time when the regular pastor, Bob
22 Selph, announced his resignation?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you recall when that was?
09:21:38AM 25 A. Well, it would have probably been early in the

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1 year. I don't recall the exact date or month. I
2 remember it was winter, early '95.
3 Q. Did you at one point prepare some notes, just
4 kind of going back in your memory of when certain
09:22:02AM 5 things occurred for purposes of a church investigation
6 that occurred in 2000? Do you recall preparing some
7 notes?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. If in your notes you had indicated that
09:22:14AM 10 Pastor Selph announced he was going to be retiring
11 January 1995, does that seem about right?
12 A. Sure.
13 Q. At some point did the church then have a new
14 pastor?
09:22:26AM 15 A. It took a while. We began the process of
16 seeking a pastor, advertising through the means of
17 other churches, other affiliations.
18 Q. Did you find someone in the end?
19 A. Yes. Tom Chantry.
09:22:48AM 20 Q. Do you recall when Tom Chantry started at
21 Miller Valley as the new pastor?
22 A. He came prior to the summer break and he began
23 to preach. At the time we brought him in in the
24 interim just to get acquainted to make sure this was
09:23:16AM 25 the right decision for us and the right decision for

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1 him.
2 And then after the summer break, I mean after
3 the summer vacation and all, people started settling
4 back in. It was in the fall that he was officially
09:23:30AM 5 called.
6 Q. As far as when he first became the interim
7 pastor, if you noted in some of your notes it was in
8 June of 1995, does that sound about right?
9 A. Yes.
09:23:41AM 10 Q. I'm going to ask you whether or not you
11 attended a Fourth of July celebration at the church
12 that very first July after Tom Chantry had come to the
13 church?
14 A. Yes.
09:23:55AM 15 Q. About how many people do you think were at
16 that gathering?
17 A. Hard to tell. It was Fourth of July.
18 Traditionally people would use our parking lot because
19 the high school was the place where the fireworks were.
09:24:11AM 20 That was full. I would say a good percentage of our
21 church was probably there. We had a meal and waiting
22 to enjoy the celebration.
23 Q. All right. Was that a traditional celebration
24 for Miller Valley to have it there on the church
09:24:29AM 25 grounds?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. People brought food?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you said there were others outside of the
09:24:36AM 5 church. Did members bring friends?
6 A. Members could bring friends. But then people
7 who were looking for places to park, we allowed them to
8 park in the lot. It was a fairly large lot. They
9 could sit on their cars or on blankets and watch the
09:24:53AM 10 festivities.
11 Q. Was that something that had been done over the
12 years for quite some time?
13 A. As long as we'd been attending the church.
14 Q. Okay.
09:25:03AM 15 A. I might have missed a year or two. I don't
16 recall ever missing.
17 Q. Now, in addition to having food and waiting
18 for the fireworks to begin, were there other activities
19 that would go on throughout the course of the day?
09:25:17AM 20 A. Throughout the day?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. I don't recall anything during the day.
23 Q. Well, let me ask you --
24 A. Leading up to late afternoon as people started
09:25:30AM 25 gathering?

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1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Yes. We had -- I think the year -- that first
3 year for Tom one of the members of our church had a
4 friend who had a pony, and they brought the pony for
09:25:46AM 5 children to ride. That was one thing I remember.
6 There probably were some games on the lawn, basketball
7 hoop in the parking lot.
8 Q. All right. Were there some boys playing with
9 squirt guns at that gathering on the Fourth of July?
09:26:07AM 10 A. That's always -- water and the Fourth of July.
11 Yes.
12 Q. Do you recall there being an incident where
13 one or more of the boys had perhaps squirted Thomas
14 Chantry?
09:26:25AM 15 A. I'm sure he got squirted. A lot of people got
16 squirted. It was part of the fun of Prescott and the
17 Fourth of July.
18 Q. Did you witness an interaction between Tom
19 Chantry and M J where M J may have
09:26:47AM 20 given the pastor a squirt?
21 A. I might have seen M shoot water at him.
22 Again, it was -- lot of people, lot of activity, lots
23 of kids squirting. I can't specifically say that I saw
24 him.
09:27:04AM 25 Q. Did you become aware at some point that there

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1 was some concerns about how Thomas Chantry might have
2 reacted to that?
3 A. Yeah. I did hear later.
4 Q. I'm going to ask you not to say what you heard
09:27:20AM 5 from other people --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You've got to wait for me to finish my
8 question.
9 Were you part of, I guess, a group or did you
09:27:32AM 10 along with L J confront your new pastor about
11 what he had done to M J ?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And specifically was he confronted about
14 punching M in the face?
09:27:48AM 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you recall what Tom Chantry said when he
17 was confronted with punching M J in the face?
18 A. I don't recall specifically what he said. He
19 had been angered obviously. But I don't think he --
09:28:07AM 20 Q. Don't tell me. I don't want speculation of
21 what --
22 Sir, you got to wait until I finish.
23 Did he admit -- did he admit to punching
24 M in the face, if you remember? If you don't,
09:28:35AM 25 it's okay.

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1 A. I don't recall.
2 Q. Now let me ask you. This is just kind of a
3 general question. Was there some concern among some of
4 the members about that conduct that day from their
09:28:49AM 5 relatively new pastor?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. Were there some discussions?
8 Again, I'm not asking you to tell us anything anybody
9 said. But were there discussions about Tom's conduct
09:29:03AM 10 that day amongst you and other people in the
11 congregation?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you all agree to forgive and kind of move
14 on?
09:29:15AM 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. Let me ask you now, despite that
17 early on kind of unusual conduct, did the families of
18 Miller Valley welcome Thomas Chantry into the church?
19 A. When it became official that he was going to
09:29:38AM 20 be called, yes. In our church we have a vote process,
21 and we had the vote. I don't recall if it was
22 unanimous. It was certainly a majority vote.
23 Q. By welcoming him were -- did people welcome
24 him into their homes, to your knowledge?
09:30:03AM 25 A. I can't speak for everyone. We did.

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1 Q. Were you aware that he would go to L and
2 L J 's home for meals?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And other activities as well -- celebrations,
09:30:17AM 5 holiday celebrations? Were you aware that they would
6 have him into their home?
7 A. Absolutely.
8 Q. Were you aware that T W and his
9 family would welcome Tom into their home on a number of
09:30:30AM 10 occasions?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were there others in the church that would
13 have him over for dinner? We heard he was single, had
14 no children. To your knowledge, were there other
09:30:40AM 15 families that likewise would have him in for a meal and
16 such?
17 A. I believe so. Yes.
18 Q. If it was said at some point in this courtroom
19 that the congregation basically just shut Tom out from
09:30:59AM 20 the day he came and joined the church, that they didn't
21 accept him, they made it clear they didn't love him,
22 would that be your view, sir?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Now, I want to kind of jump forward past the
09:31:16AM 25 Fourth of July. At some point did L J become

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1 an elder along with you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Let me ask you. Back in 1995 how many elders
4 were there traditionally for the church?
09:31:29AM 5 A. Three.
6 Q. And would that include the pastor?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. So in 1995 after the Fourth of
9 July, who were the elders?
09:31:45AM 10 A. Myself and Eric Owens. No. L J .
11 Eric came later.
12 Q. And Thomas Chantry?
13 A. And Thomas Chantry. Yes.
14 Q. At some point did you become aware that Thomas
09:32:06AM 15 Chantry was tutoring L J 's son M ?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you become aware of that before an issue
18 arose related to the tutoring or did you only find out
19 when an issue arose?
09:32:21AM 20 A. I'm pretty sure I was aware of it going on.
21 Q. Did you know -- were you aware that Thomas
22 Chantry was doing some of the tutoring there at the
23 church?
24 A. Yes.
09:32:34AM 25 Q. Let me ask you a question, sir. When there

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1 wasn't an occasion for folks to be on church grounds,
2 preparing Meals for Wheels and it wasn't a day there
3 was prayer sessions or things of that nature, did
4 people come and go to the church at any time of the day
09:32:58AM 5 or night when they wanted?
6 A. I don't know what the reason would be for
7 that.
8 Q. So unless there was something going on,
9 generally people wouldn't be there, I assume?
09:33:13AM 10 A. The only person on the property would have
11 been Tom.
12 Q. Thank you. And perhaps the children he was
13 tutoring?
14 A. At the time. Yes.
09:33:21AM 15 Q. All right. At some point, sir, let me ask
16 you. As you sit here today, do you recall how long Tom
17 Chantry had been tutoring M J before an issue
18 that I'm going to discuss with you arose?
19 A. How long was he tutoring?
09:33:52AM 20 Q. Yeah. If you know.
21 A. I don't recall the specific time. I don't
22 recall when it began --
23 Q. That's okay.
24 A. -- from the time he came.
09:34:02AM 25 Q. Again, sir, if your notes prepared sometime

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1 ago indicated that you believe that the tutoring began
2 in September of 1995, was your memory better back then
3 in 2000 than perhaps it is today?
4 A. Well, yes.
09:34:21AM 5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Much better. That would have been in the
7 fall, that first year. So Tom would have just been
8 brought in officially in the fall. And that's when he
9 started tutoring.
09:34:35AM 10 Q. And that would be generally when school
11 perhaps started?
12 A. During the school year.
13 Q. All right. Now, at some point did L J
14 come to you with a pretty significant concern about
09:34:48AM 15 something that he'd learned had occurred during the
16 tutoring?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Again, I don't want you to necessarily say
19 what L J said. But did you become aware that
09:35:02AM 20 there was concerns about bare-bottom spankings?
21 A. Yes. I don't recall the initial time L
22 informed me that the pastor was spanking him for
23 disciplinary -- for questions on bare bottom but that
24 he was spanking.
09:35:24AM 25 Q. At some point, though, does L come to you

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1 about bare-bottom spanking?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was that a significant concern to L , as
4 far as you knew?
09:35:35AM 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. As a result of that what did you and L
7 J do?
8 A. Well, at that time L , I recall, revisited
9 the issue with Tom, asked why.
09:35:58AM 10 Q. And, again, I'm just trying to avoid you
11 having to say L said he testified. But
12 specifically do you recall you and L going and
13 having a conversation with Tom and confronting him
14 about bare-bottom spankings of M ?
09:36:17AM 15 MR. SEARS: Foundation. Date, time, place.
16 THE COURT: She can ask that.
17 Q. BY MS. EAZER: Do you recall going with L
18 and confronting Tom about sparking L bare bottom?
19 A. I recall --
09:36:32AM 20 Q. Just yes or no.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. As far as when that may have occurred, if --
23 assuming for purposes of my question the tutoring began
24 in September of 1995, do you have a recollection of
09:36:47AM 25 approximately how much time had passed before you and

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1 L J confronted Tom Chantry about spanking
2 M bare bottom?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you have an idea whether it was months or
09:37:03AM 5 weeks? If you don't it's okay.
6 A. No. I don't recall a specific time frame from
7 the time it started.
8 Q. Let me ask you this to see if this might help
9 refresh your recollection: Do you recall that this
09:37:24AM 10 discussion occurred after M had spent the night
11 with the defendant over a Christmas break from school?
12 Does that ring any bells?
13 A. That M spent the night at the parsonage
14 alone with the pastor?
09:37:48AM 15 Q. Yes. Do you recall that?
16 A. I don't remember. It could have happened. I
17 don't recall the specific that he was alone with him
18 overnight.
19 Q. All right. Let me ask you -- well, is your
09:38:08AM 20 memory about dates and time frames as clear today as it
21 maybe would have been back then?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Let me ask you this: If L J and
24 M previously testified it happened over a
09:38:26AM 25 Christmas break in 1995, would you have any reason to

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1 disagree with that?
2 MR. SEARS: Objection.
3 THE WITNESS: None whatsoever.
4 THE COURT: Overruled.
09:38:40AM 5 Q. BY MS. EAZER: When you went and confronted
6 Tomas Chantry about spanking M bare bottom, sir,
7 did he admit that he had done that?
8 A. I think it was an original kind of a downplay,
9 that it wasn't serious. But yes. He did admit --
09:39:01AM 10 Q. He admitted to the bare-bottom spankings?
11 A. I don't recall specifically about it being
12 bare bottom.
13 Q. You recall, though, confronting him about bare
14 bottom; correct?
09:39:13AM 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Because that's what really that upset L ?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you recall whether Tom Chantry denied that
19 type of a spanking?
09:39:25AM 20 A. Initially?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, to your knowledge, after Tom Chantry was
24 confronted about the bare-bottom spanking, was he
09:39:39AM 25 permitted to continue to tutor M afterwards?

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1 A. I believe so.
2 Q. And do you recall if there were any special
3 measures taken with respect to the future tutoring
4 after he had been confronted with the bare-bottom
09:39:58AM 5 spanking?
6 A. All I would recall would be that L would
7 have assured him that was inappropriate.
8 Q. Did you have any knowledge as to whether after
9 the confrontation whether Tom was in fact going to the
09:40:18AM 10 J home to do the tutoring as opposed to doing it on
11 church grounds?
12 A. That I don't recall.
13 Q. That's fine, sir. All right. Let me ask you
14 this: Despite this conduct and the concerns that were
09:40:34AM 15 raised by L J , did L J and L J ,
16 at least to what you saw, still treat the defendant
17 with kindness and Christian -- you know -- having him
18 into their house and so forth?
19 A. Yes.
09:40:52AM 20 Q. So even after this they didn't shut him out of
21 their lives?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And how about you? After this did you shut
24 Thomas Chantry out of your life?
09:41:05AM 25 A. No.

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1 Q. Did you continue to invite him for meals and
2 such?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And as far as what you recall with respect to
09:41:14AM 5 how the rest of the congregation treated Tom Chantry
6 even after this incident with M , did everybody
7 continue to welcome him and treat him with respect?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Let me ask you one more thing with respect to
09:41:37AM 10 the whole J incident that you've talked about here
11 today. Did that become publicly known to the rest of
12 the congregation?
13 A. That's a good question. I'm not sure how many
14 people L told.
09:41:52AM 15 Q. If L said he didn't tell anyone, would you
16 have any reason to disagree?
17 A. None whatsoever.
18 MR. SEARS: Objection. Misstates the
19 evidence.
09:42:09AM 20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 MS. EAZER: For right now I'm simply speaking
22 about what happened in late 1995, early 1996 concerning
23 specifically just M J . To your knowledge,
24 were any announcements made in church saying -- you've
09:42:36AM 25 got to wait -- telling others in the church about what

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1 had been alleged with respect to M J ?
2 A. No.
3 Q. To your knowledge, did anyone go around and
4 tell all the families about what had happened with
09:42:54AM 5 M ?
6 A. Not that I was aware of.
7 Q. Now, things didn't go on as usual after that
8 incident for a while?
9 A. Yes.
09:43:05AM 10 Q. Now, at some point do you recall L and
11 L J moving?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you have an idea of when that might have
14 been?
09:43:17AM 15 A. '98, '99.
16 Q. I'll refer you to some notes you may have made
17 with respect to that. If your notes indicate February
18 of 1997?
19 A. Okay. That would be -- yeah.
09:43:40AM 20 Q. Who steps in now to take over L J 's
21 place as elder?
22 A. We had another calling within the
23 congregation, and that's when Eric Owens was called to
24 be elder.
09:43:52AM 25 Q. All right. Did you all have a nickname for

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1 Eric Owens?
2 A. Shorty.
3 Q. Now, at some point, sir, did you become aware
4 of another family coming forward with some allegations
09:44:17AM 5 about spankings?
6 A. That would have been C .
7 Q. All right. And that referred to D L ?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Now, again, I want to be real careful and not
09:44:32AM 10 have you talk about what others have said. How -- who
11 did you first learn about some allegations involving
12 D L ? Who told you, if you can recall?
13 A. If I recall correctly, it would have been
14 C .
09:44:49AM 15 Q. Let me ask you, sir. Do you recall whether or
16 not you first got a call from H E ?
17 A. I might have.
18 Q. And -- well, when you say you might have, do
19 you remember getting a call from H about some
09:45:10AM 20 concerns she had with respect to D ?
21 A. I don't recall specifics at that time. I
22 remember C certainly.
23 Q. All right. All right. Let me ask you this:
24 If C recalls you calling her and stating that you
09:45:36AM 25 had heard some disturbing news from H , does that

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1 help --
2 A. That does.
3 Q. Does that refresh your recollection?
4 A. That would have connected me with C .
09:45:46AM 5 Correct.
6 Q. And after you called C -- and, again, I
7 don't want to hear about your discussion -- did you
8 call her about what you were concerned about with
9 respect to D L ?
09:46:02AM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. Now, did you then yourself
12 personally go with C to confront or to speak to
13 Thomas Chantry?
14 A. Yes. But I think it probably would have also
09:46:25AM 15 been with our other elder.
16 MR. SEARS: I couldn't hear the last answer,
17 Your Honor.
18 THE WITNESS: That it would have been with
19 myself and Shorty.
09:46:38AM 20 THE COURT: Counsel, approach, please.
21 (Sidebar conference.)
22 THE COURT: Is he going to bring up the stuff
23 we talked about before the jury came out?
24 MS. EAZER: Yes. He will say they confronted
09:46:59AM 25 him and he denied the bare-bottom spanking. Because

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1 this witness's kind of inability to stay in focus, I
2 would just ask to be able to lead with respect to --
3 just like I did with did he confront or did he deny it.
4 THE COURT: Well, it's a new issue. It wasn't
09:47:14AM 5 brought up to me that this issue was going to be
6 brought up with this witness. Only through C
7 L is what I understood this morning.
8 What I intended to do is hear from Ms. L
9 outside the presence of the jury to hear the full
09:47:32AM 10 context so I can understand it and make a determination
11 to see if we have issues on 403 and perhaps even
12 confrontation clause issues. So if he's going to talk
13 about it, then I'd want to hear the same thing.
14 MS. EAZER: Let me clarify. He didn't go with
09:47:48AM 15 C L to confront the defendant. Eric Owens
16 did. And he's not testifying until later. He and Eric
17 Owens went and confronted the defendant together, just
18 them with the defendant. And the defendant denied.
19 MR. SEARS: Maybe you misspoke. I thought you
09:48:08AM 20 just said -- did you go with C ?
21 MS. EAZER: No. I thought he was going to say
22 no because he's in Israel when C goes. And when
23 he's saying no, I went with the other elder, he and the
24 other --
09:48:20AM 25 THE COURT: This is all confusing. You said a

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1 couple different things now. And he said he was with
2 C .
3 MS. EAZER: I don't think he answered that
4 way. He said it was with another elder.
09:48:32AM 5 THE COURT: No. He said C L .
6 MS. EAZER: Let me just clarify. What I told
7 the Court this morning was I intended all along to have
8 Rich Howe and Eric Owens talk about their confrontation
9 of the defendant and his denial of bare-bottom spanking
09:48:43AM 10 of D .
11 I will tell you this witness was not -- he did
12 not go with C L to confront the defendant.
13 He was in Israel. And Mr. Sears knows that. I think
14 he's maybe a little confused. He has a lot of chemo
09:49:01AM 15 and he's easily kind of confused.
16 THE COURT: When I excuse the jury, we need to
17 have a discussion. And you brought up a potential
18 confidence issue with this witness as well.
19 MS. EAZER: He remembers things. It's just
09:49:11AM 20 been a long time.
21 MR. SEARS: Sue has a time line that he and
22 Shorty prepared for the church council in December that
23 has all these dates. Sue was trying to get him to
24 remember the dates. I know that Sue was looking for
09:49:30AM 25 him to say this confrontation about bare-bottom

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1 spanking, for example, was in November 1995.
2 I'll bet you that his testimony would go more
3 smoothly if we marked that if it's not already marked
4 and used it specifically to refresh his recollection
09:49:48AM 5 rather than asking him to squint his eyes and guess.
6 I'm pretty sure that's what Sue was using to --
7 MS. EAZER: That's fine. Although not to say
8 it was in November. Because that's the one he said was
9 an approximate date.
09:49:59AM 10 MR. SEARS: Right. There is a time line.
11 MS. EAZER: I can give him that.
12 THE COURT: Sure. The confrontation that he
13 and Shorty had were about bare-bottom spankings of
14 D L ; correct?
09:50:13AM 15 MS. EAZER: Yes.
16 THE COURT: You're objecting to that?
17 MR. SEARS: Oh, yeah.
18 THE COURT: Let's have a discussion about that
19 outside the presence of the jury. Thank you.
09:50:24AM 20 (End of sidebar conference.)
21 THE COURT: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
22 We're going to take a brief recess at this time, 15
23 minutes or so. Remember the admonition.
24 Thank you.
09:50:31AM 25 (Proceedings continued outside the

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1 presence of jury.)
2 THE COURT: A couple of things.
3 First, Mr. Howe, thank you for being here. I
4 appreciate your time you're giving up out of your
09:51:21AM 5 schedule and day to be here and provide your testimony.
6 What I really need you to do is to focus on
7 something to help us have a good record. And you just
8 did exactly what I'm going to tell you not to do. And
9 I appreciate that you're trying to be helpful. I
09:51:37AM 10 appreciate that in everyday conversation we don't talk
11 in a way where one person stops. That's not how
12 everyday conversation goes. So this is a little
13 difficult.
14 You need to think of this as, like, an old
09:51:53AM 15 school CV type of conversation where you can't speak
16 until the person says over. So if you could do us a
17 favor and maybe do a better job of not speaking in the
18 middle of a question and wait for it to be done. That
19 would help us out a lot. Can you do that for us,
09:52:12AM 20 please?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
22 THE COURT: Thank you very much. You're not
23 doing anything wrong. It's normal. A lot of people do
24 that.
09:52:23AM 25 Next let's have a discussion. I don't know

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1 that we need Mr. Howe on the stand for this discussion.
2 MR. SEARS: I don't believe so.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 If you want to step down now, that's fine.
09:52:36AM 5 The discussion that we had before we brought
6 up the jury as it applied to C L only also
7 applies apparently to Mr. Howe's testimony and then
8 eventually Mr. Owens's testimony. Is that correct?
9 While we're discussing other people's
09:52:54AM 10 testimony, because the rule has been invoked, Mr. Howe,
11 if you wouldn't mind waiting outside for us. And then
12 we'll get you when we're ready.
13 MS. EAZER: I don't think the rule has been
14 invoked.
09:53:06AM 15 THE COURT: The rule has been invoked. In
16 fact, I advised the jury of it in preliminary
17 instructions.
18 MS. EAZER: I didn't remember either of us
19 doing it, but I agree with the Court.
09:53:14AM 20 THE COURT: Thank you for that statement.
21 That was unnecessary.
22 Let's talk. As I understand it, Ms. Eazer,
23 you intend to ask Mr. Howe, Ms. L and Mr. Owens
24 about their confrontations of the defendant concerning
09:53:35AM 25 bare-bottom spankings of D L .

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1 Is that accurate?
2 MS. EAZER: Yes.
3 THE COURT: And I'm a little confused by this
4 witness's answer. I just want to make sure I
09:53:46AM 5 understand everything.
6 Were there multiple confrontations about this
7 topic?
8 MS. EAZER: Two.
9 THE COURT: One was Ms. L on her own?
09:53:57AM 10 MS. EAZER: No. Ms. L with Eric Owens
11 went -- that's when the defendant came to their home
12 and they confronted him.
13 THE COURT: And then who was with Mr. Howe?
14 MS. EAZER: Mr. Howe and Eric Owens together.
09:54:12AM 15 It's even in the notes. It says after they confirmed
16 the revelation by D 's mother, Rich meets with
17 fellow Elder Shorty at 5:00 p.m., and both confront
18 Pastor Tom after the evening prayer meeting. That
19 happens on church grounds.
09:54:36AM 20 THE COURT: All right. I'm thinking about the
21 bare-bottom spanking issue as it applies to D .
22 D is not a witness so he's not going to testify.
23 So we're not going to hear anything about bare-bottom
24 spankings concerning him.
09:54:49AM 25 We can't hear about others' observation, like

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1 we talked about before in the 404(b) ruling, as
2 Mr. Sears indicated, about spankings and then injury.
3 But there is no testimony about either an
4 observation of bare-bottom spanking of D L by
09:55:09AM 5 the defendant. So Mr. Sears is right in that it is not
6 included in the 404(B) ruling.
7 The issue that I have, and this is what I want
8 to ask you about, is how do I allow it? Because aren't
9 we now having a situation where we have a confrontation
09:55:40AM 10 of an allegation made by someone who is not a witness,
11 who is not here to be cross-examined and/or confronted?
12 I have a concern about that. How do I allow
13 that in? Can't we then excise that part out of it and
14 just say they confronted him about spanking D
09:55:57AM 15 L ?
16 MS. EAZER: Judge, as I said earlier but maybe
17 not clearly enough, the state has always -- and I never
18 even considered to be anything crossing over into
19 404(B) -- had always intended to ask the elders about
09:56:12AM 20 the times that they had confrontations with the
21 defendant.
22 It's not -- it's the defendant's denials. And
23 it doesn't have to be an admission by a party opponent
24 obviously. It's his denials to the conduct with
09:56:28AM 25 respect to each of the three children that is the --

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1 that's where the importance of the evidence comes in.
2 Again, especially given the fact that he's
3 saying none of this ever happened. These children are
4 all lying. I never did any of this.
09:56:45AM 5 More so with D L . Couple of things,
6 Judge. No. 1, the description of the bruising and the
7 blisters, which this court heard from C L
8 firsthand during testimony at one of our hearings, the
9 bruises and blistering on the bottom and the very
09:57:02AM 10 distinct shape, I would submit to you that that is
11 evidence that it is bare bottom. There is actual
12 blisters she talks about.
13 But the D L allegation in and of
14 itself is what then caused the whole investigation to
09:57:16AM 15 happen. So that's the first one that comes forward in
16 2000.
17 And then after learning about that, about the
18 bruises that were seen on D L -- and, again,
19 I'm not getting into his statements. After learning
09:57:32AM 20 about that, T W , who hasn't testified to this
21 yet but will testify, when he confronted the defendant
22 about spanking his children, they decided to keep it to
23 themselves. They didn't go to the church council right
24 away.
09:57:49AM 25 But as soon as it was announced in church that

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1 there had been some allegations of inappropriate
2 conduct of the defendant with D L , then they
3 came forward and then that's when the church likewise
4 reached out to M J and his family and they
09:58:06AM 5 called in the council.
6 D L -- what happened to him is at the
7 heart of the whole investigation because that's why it
8 all started. And when the counsel came down -- and
9 again this is, I think, critical evidence in this case.
09:58:22AM 10 The defendant -- and I plan to ask him this
11 when he gets on the witness stand -- again adamantly
12 denied ever spanking any child bare bottom.
13 And that to the state is critical evidence
14 because it's obviously -- you know -- less likely -- he
09:58:39AM 15 has now been confronted three times with doing this,
16 and he denies it. And he's saying everybody is lying.
17 So with respect to Rich Howe and Eric Owens --
18 and also we have another bit of testimony that Eric
19 Owens will say now after this whole thing with D
09:58:54AM 20 L .
21 He goes in -- and I believe it's actually
22 right the same day. Before he and this witness go
23 confront the defendant, he goes into the parsonage.
24 And that's when the defendant makes the statement:
09:59:14AM 25 I've done something I don't think I can recover from.

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1 And when Eric says, what did you do?
2 He says, I've spanked some of the children,
3 and I think I took it too far. That's a critical
4 statement by the defendant in this case especially --
09:59:33AM 5 THE COURT: Ms. Eazer, you're doing a
6 wonderful job of not answering my question, which is a
7 pattern probably now for two years. Help me connect
8 the bear bottom aspect of it. I'm trying to
9 understand. Not -- what you said in terms of his
09:59:53AM 10 statements or his admissions, as he called them, are
11 fine.
12 The spanking having gone too far has nothing
13 to do with what we're talking about now, which has to
14 do with the confrontation about bare-bottom spanking.
10:00:12AM 15 Is it your position, as I understand, and I'm
16 trying to understand what you're saying, that the
17 bare-bottom spanking allegation that comes up in 2000
18 is the geneses for everything? Is that what you're
19 saying?
10:00:29AM 20 MS. EAZER: It's what gets it started. Yes.
21 THE COURT: And because of that that's why
22 it's admissible, not because you're trying to prove
23 that there was a bare-bottom spanking, just that it's
24 that allegation that causes people to do things?
10:00:43AM 25 MS. EAZER: Absolutely. And I would never

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1 argue to the jury that he spanked D L bare
2 bottom. It's his denial to the conduct in each and
3 every case. And it goes to consciousness of guilt.
4 THE COURT: And the bare-bottom spanking is
10:01:00AM 5 what caused them to go to talk to him in the first
6 place?
7 MS. EAZER: Yes, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: How do I separate that out?
9 MR. SEARS: I don't think the Gordian knot
10:01:14AM 10 that has been created here is susceptible to being
11 separated out. Let's just take a quick second to
12 remember where we started here back in the fall of
13 2017.
14 My distinct impression, as recently as
10:01:30AM 15 overnight reading your rulings in November and your
16 detailed rulings in March of 2018, said we will
17 allow -- you will allow some testimony from percipient
18 witnesses of what they observed themselves about D
19 L as 404(B) on the W children accounts.
10:01:51AM 20 That was the context in which it was raised.
21 Now, I think the Court has correctly identified the
22 confrontation issue, which is what I was dancing around
23 earlier. And I think the Court has focused on it.
24 Now the state wants to expand this,
10:02:08AM 25 essentially put D L back into the case

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1 substantively and require the defendant to defend
2 himself without the ability to confront D L
3 about these allegations.
4 We are treating these allegations as if they
10:02:22AM 5 were true. And the state wants to introduce this
6 entire conversation now, we talked about, between the
7 defendant and D L 's mother and expand it to
8 these other confrontations about this evidence all the
9 while not hearing from D L , having nothing
10:02:42AM 10 that the defendant can confront and rebut directly.
11 The state wants to infer that these injuries
12 had to have been inflicted bare bottom. But no witness
13 is going to be allowed to say that.
14 THE COURT: And that part I'm not moved by. I
10:02:55AM 15 hear what you're saying on that point. The point that
16 I'm struggling with and that I want to hear your
17 argument on is the bare-bottom spanking allegation is
18 what started everything.
19 MR. SEARS: This is where the knot becomes
10:03:08AM 20 impossible.
21 THE COURT: Sure. Go ahead.
22 MR. SEARS: This witness here has testified,
23 as I expected he would, based on this time line that I
24 mentioned during the bench conference that bare-bottom
10:03:19AM 25 spanking of M J came up November of 1995, five

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1 years almost exactly before this secondary revelation
2 of this alleged bare-bottom spanking of L .
3 The problem is the Court, I'm sure will well
4 remember, that M J testified here earlier in
10:03:43AM 5 this trial that the first time he ever told anybody
6 about bare-bottom spankings was in that letter of
7 November 20, 2000, and said that was the first time
8 that I went so far as to say that I was spanked bare
9 bottom.
10:04:00AM 10 Now we have this testimony that hasn't been
11 crossed yet that oh, no, no, no. There was talk about
12 bare-bottom spankings all the way back five years
13 earlier in this case.
14 So now the state has a theory that they're
10:04:09AM 15 advancing just now again that the entire case began in
16 2000 with the revelation of the D L situation
17 when they produced evidence so far today that says
18 that's actually not true.
19 THE COURT: That's not really genuine. That
10:04:31AM 20 argument isn't genuine. We're talking about the 2000
21 investigation. What started the 2000 investigation was
22 the D L stuff, not the M J .
23 MR. SEARS: I thought the state was referring
24 to how this case came about in 2015.
10:04:47AM 25 THE COURT: No. The church's reaction and

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1 responses in 2000.
2 MR. SEARS: So they can tell that story. But
3 in telling that story I don't think they can disregard
4 or ignore the defendant's right to confrontation about
10:05:02AM 5 those allegations.
6 This is the problem that I won't say I
7 anticipated fully back when we were talking about this,
8 which I thought the Court dealt with head on, which was
9 we're going to limit the L evidence in a very
10:05:15AM 10 specific way.
11 And now what I sort of thought might happen
12 has in fact happening right in front of us, which is
13 now this becomes a trial about D L and did he
14 do it? Did he not do it? Is this how this all
10:05:30AM 15 started? This witness is going to talk about it.
16 And D L comes thundering into this
17 case today in a way that I don't think the Court
18 anticipated in its rulings in November and March about
19 this.
10:05:44AM 20 And there is very little that the defendant
21 can do at this point with that information if there are
22 no restrictions and it's all wide open about this.
23 And that just tees up both the confrontation
24 problem and 403 problem because we've made today's
10:06:06AM 25 testimony about D L . I don't think the Court

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1 ever thought that was going to happen.
2 THE COURT: I don't know that I agree with you
3 concerning that this is all about D L .
4 Certainly testimony about how things came to the
10:06:24AM 5 awareness of church elders and what they did in
6 response to same and then it led to him eventually
7 leaving can come in.
8 The issue is we have a proposal from you
9 asking in terms of how we address that. Because what
10:06:41AM 10 I'm hearing from you is I can't preclude it 100 percent
11 in terms of they got an allegation. The issue is
12 sanitizing it perhaps is what I'm hearing from you.
13 Is that fair?
14 MR. SEARS: It is. And I thought you were on
10:06:57AM 15 the verge of doing that a few moments ago.
16 THE COURT: That's what I'm asking about.
17 MR. SEARS: I think -- I continue to maintain
18 that going all the way back to the 404(B) rulings,
19 there were problems with that. But that's so settled
10:07:10AM 20 in this case, I'm not going to bother to talk about it
21 again.
22 But I think your approach today that says
23 we're not going to talk about bare bottom spankings
24 with any of this and we're going to talk about is
10:07:22AM 25 confronted about spanking D L , and he admitted

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1 that he did it and apologized for doing it without
2 permission.
3 That's further than I would like to go. But
4 if the Court wants to limit the testimony to that, that
10:07:37AM 5 is far superior than simply allowing the state to go
6 where the state chooses to go.
7 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
8 In this case and throughout the case I've
9 observed and tolerated, as the parties know, some
10:07:52AM 10 conduct that I haven't found to be the best in terms of
11 professionalism. I've addressed it a number of times
12 in chambers.
13 I'm done addressing it in chambers. So
14 understand this: I am going to address unprofessional
10:08:10AM 15 conduct in open court because addressing it in chambers
16 hasn't worked. So maybe my addressing it on the record
17 in open court, by doing that may provide some extra
18 motivation.
19 Ms. Eazer, I need you to please curtail your
10:08:38AM 20 unprofessional reactions to things that Mr. Sears is
21 saying. I understand you disagree with him. But we
22 have to stop the eye rolling. We have to stop the
23 faces. We have to stop all of that, please. It's not
24 very professional or becoming.
10:08:51AM 25 Doesn't mean you can't disagree with him. I'm

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1 going to -- I expect that you do. But we really need
2 to stop that.
3 Can we do that, please?
4 MS. EAZER: Yes, sir. I did not realize I
10:09:05AM 5 rolled my eyes.
6 THE COURT: All right. You've been doing it
7 too many occasions to count. So we're going to stop
8 that.
9 The question I have for you is the possibility
10:09:14AM 10 of excising or sanitizing this issue. Help me
11 understand why you think that's not appropriate.
12 MS. EAZER: What Mr. Sears has just said he
13 would accept from the Court is what he said in his
14 opening. So to say that I would agree to saying was he
10:09:37AM 15 confronted about spanking and did he admit it and
16 apologize, that's not what happened.
17 And I know that's what Mr. Sears is arguing in
18 this case. But that's not what happened. Again, it's
19 the denials of the defendant as he's going to do when
10:09:52AM 20 he gets on the stand. That is what's relevant.
21 I had my intention -- and again I apologize to
22 the Court if I didn't state it clearly enough -- again,
23 is just was he confronted with bare-bottom spanking and
24 did he deny it? Did he at one point say he went too
10:10:10AM 25 far with these spankings and now can't recover?

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1 And I have one more thing I do want to say.
2 And I'm trying to stay on target with what you've
3 asked. Mr. Sears said M J testified that the
4 first time he ever said anything about the bare-bottom
10:10:22AM 5 spanking was in 2000 with his letter.
6 That's absolutely incorrect, Judge. This is
7 important for why I think the defendant's denials are
8 important. I'm trying to stay on task and I do not
9 want to upset you.
10:10:35AM 10 M J --
11 THE COURT: It's not about upsetting me. It's
12 about the most effective use of our time. We have a
13 jury waiting.
14 MS. EAZER: I understand. I'm trying to do
10:10:45AM 15 that. And I wasn't doing anything deliberately before.
16 I'm trying to stay focused on the argument.
17 In 19 -- well, over the Christmas break when
18 M testified he spent the night at the defendant's
19 house and that's when first bare-bottom spanking
10:11:00AM 20 happened and then some more happened, and then it came
21 to his parents' attention, that was -- he absolutely
22 testified that that was disclosed to his parents.
23 L J said it was the bare-bottom
24 spanking, learning of the bare-bottom spanking that
10:11:16AM 25 happened over the Christmas break that caused him to go

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1 to the defendant and confront him and that the
2 defendant denied that.
3 Then they did, as the Court heard, the
4 monitored tutoring.
10:11:30AM 5 THE COURT: And that concerns M . And
6 M testified. But help me understand why the
7 bare-bottom spanking as to D should not be
8 sanitized.
9 MS. EAZER: Well, because it's the defendant's
10:11:44AM 10 denials, which are the statements against interest that
11 that becomes important for. It's not whether D got
12 spanked bare bottom or not, although I would point out
13 to the Court again the injuries support that.
14 Yesterday a witness could have said that --
10:11:54AM 15 THE COURT: Let me stop you there. Does it
16 matter if his denials are about spanking or about
17 bare-bottom spanking?
18 MS. EAZER: He didn't deny spanking. That's
19 what Mr. Sears wants to get out. He said, I admit I
10:12:07AM 20 spanked your child. I shouldn't have spanked your
21 child. I was trying to discipline him and make him a
22 better person. I am sorry I took that measure with
23 your child.
24 And everything was fine and dandy. That's
10:12:19AM 25 what Mr. Sears said in his opening. That's what he's

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1 saying he wants the evidence to be now is that he was
2 confronted with spanking D L . He admitted to
3 spanking him and apologized.
4 But that's not what happened. And the
10:12:31AM 5 evidence that the state is seeking to get in is the
6 defendant's denials. And if he denies, denies, denies
7 each of these times -- and it is supportive of the
8 other victims' testimony because he denied those.
9 And so by his denial and Mr. Sears's theory in
10:12:48AM 10 this case that all the named victims are lying, the
11 fact that the defendant has denied every time he was
12 confronted with this conduct -- adamantly denied it --
13 is what's relevant. It's his statements against
14 interest.
10:13:02AM 15 THE COURT: So your offer of proof is that the
16 statements in interest are going to be an admission to
17 physical discipline but a denial to bare-bottom
18 physical discipline?
19 MS. EAZER: Which is what is the inappropriate
10:13:15AM 20 part -- and that's where it crosses the line and
21 becomes an assault.
22 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
23 This issue does create -- it brings in
24 difficult issues. It brings in the confrontation
10:13:34AM 25 clause issue that we talked about.

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1 But it also -- the allegation, true or not, of
2 the bare-bottom spanking is what begins the
3 investigation in 2000. It is why people did what they
4 did and confronted what they confronted.
10:13:58AM 5 It's difficult for me to sanitize that because
6 that is the allegation that started everything. I
7 appreciate the confrontation clause part of it. I've
8 considered that. I've considered the 403 part of it.
9 And overall I find the relevance of it
10:14:19AM 10 outweighs any prejudicial effect. If there is any type
11 of limiting instruction that you would like me to
12 consider, I'm happy to consider one that you may craft
13 for the final instructions.
14 MR. SEARS: As opposed to now during the
10:14:37AM 15 testimony?
16 THE COURT: If you thought of something now
17 that you wanted me to do, I'd consider that as well.
18 MR. SEARS: I consider myself quick but not
19 that quick. There may well be something I can say.
10:14:53AM 20 May I ask a question?
21 THE COURT: Sure. Go ahead.
22 MR. SEARS: We've now compounded this issue by
23 saying in this conversation between D L 's
24 mother and apparently Shorty Owens and the defendant,
10:15:08AM 25 you would permit statements certainly from D 's

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1 mother that she confronted the defendant about
2 bare-bottom spanking of her son.
3 I don't know whether you have addressed yet
4 the question of whether Shorty Owens would be allowed
10:15:26AM 5 to confirm that somehow to add the cumulative effect of
6 saying yeah, I was there and that's what was said.
7 And then you would allow statements from
8 C L and perhaps Shorty Owens later today
9 that say this is what happened. This was the
10:15:44AM 10 conversation. This is what the defendant said. He
11 said I apologize for spanking your son and I deny the
12 allegation I spanked bare bottom.
13 By the way, we anticipate the defendant will
14 ultimately deny that that conversation ever took place.
10:16:03AM 15 His testimony, I believe, will be there was discussion
16 simply about spanking without permission.
17 Then on top of that, if I'm understanding the
18 state's proffer, they want to have perhaps testimony
19 from Mr. Howe and then later Shorty Owens saying
10:16:19AM 20 independent of that conversation we also confronted the
21 defendant about these bare-bottom spanking allegations.
22 It looks like from the time line they said
23 that that happened on the 18th of October 2000 and that
24 the revelation, which I think came from H E ,
10:16:40AM 25 by the way. I think the state also thinks this is what

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1 happened.
2 And Rich Howe and Shorty met on the 17th and
3 the 18th and talked to Tom Chantry later that night and
4 then again the next day.
10:16:55AM 5 So now we are just rolling up these
6 allegations and these confrontations. It's not just
7 one. It's now three separate times that he was
8 confronted about this.
9 And the problem now I think is magnified. The
10:17:13AM 10 confrontation problem is magnified. Now there is this
11 three-day continuing conversation between people, all
12 of whom will be witnesses in this case, about this
13 thing.
14 And we have no ability now or ever other than
10:17:27AM 15 the defendant's denial that any of it happened to head
16 on confront this allegation from D L . That's
17 where the problem I think is significant. And now I
18 think, from what I'm understanding, it's been made
19 worse.
10:17:44AM 20 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. I think
21 you've made your record on that. Again, I'd be happy
22 to consider anything in terms of a limiting instruction
23 you would want me to consider.
24 MR. SEARS: One additional point for purposes
10:17:56AM 25 of the record?

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1 THE COURT: Sure.
2 MR. SEARS: I still -- as we said at the bench
3 conference, the question of whether or not it's
4 appropriate at this point to leave the jury with the
10:18:04AM 5 inference that when Tom Chantry admitted spanking the
6 child without permission, he was admitting a crime.
7 We haven't addressed that. It hasn't been
8 decided, to my knowledge, by this court. And that's
9 the classic admission against penal interest that the
10:18:21AM 10 rule was originally crafted to address originally.
11 THE COURT: I appreciate that. That issue is,
12 I think, open to interpretation. It's a weight issue
13 rather than an admissibility issue. We can address the
14 discipline, reasonable discipline, through the
10:18:38AM 15 instructions.
16 There is a statute on this. And we can
17 address that. And certainly that will be in the
18 instructions, and you can argue what's allowed in terms
19 of discipline and what's not allowed.
10:18:49AM 20 MR. SEARS: If I understand the Court's ruling
21 completely now, everything that the state has asked the
22 Court for permission to bring in is now going to be
23 admissible. Is that effectively the take away I should
24 have?
10:19:05AM 25 THE COURT: Yes.

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1 MR. SEARS: Thank you.
2 THE COURT: Next let's talk about Mr. Howe and
3 the difficulties that we're having from his testimony.
4 I'm not talking about just him talking out of turn,
10:19:17AM 5 which is a minor issue. There is obviously confusion
6 and problems with dates and issues.
7 I think Mr. Sears's suggestion as a handle of
8 it is a good one. I'm leaning to in terms of him
9 having something in front of him to refresh his
10:19:44AM 10 recollection in terms of dates to refer to, which is
11 what you're talking about.
12 MR. SEARS: By the way, this document that I
13 have says it's to the council, the church council.
14 It's dated December 13, 2000. It's from the Miller
10:19:59AM 15 Valley elders.
16 I don't know whether this was a joint effort
17 between Mr. Howe and Shorty Owens or one or the other
18 of them. I'm sure he can answer that fairly quickly.
19 THE COURT: Sure.
10:20:09AM 20 MR. SEARS: But I think these are when counsel
21 for the state was talking about notes, you made some
22 notes. I'm guessing without knowing what she was
23 talking about, this time line here.
24 So I think we would have to establish on the
10:20:20AM 25 record first that this is his document or that he was

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1 aware of it or saw it.
2 THE COURT: Absolutely.
3 MR. SEARS: It came to me first in the
4 infamous red binder. That's what I got.
10:20:33AM 5 THE COURT: Absolutely. Because I don't think
6 we have a competence issue, but I was concerned about
7 something that Ms. Eazer said at the bench. I don't
8 necessarily need to repeat it now.
9 But I think utilizing that will alleviate some
10:20:56AM 10 of those concerns as long as we have the foundational
11 issues that Mr. Sears discussed.
12 And, Ms. Eazer, that was a document that you
13 were referring to when you were talking to him. Is
14 that accurate?
10:21:05AM 15 MS. EAZER: Yes. He has said in his interview
16 with Mr. Sears and I he prepared this document. And it
17 was him not jointly with -- he may have looked at other
18 things, but it was an outline he prepared for the
19 council.
10:21:18AM 20 THE COURT: But certainly it will help refresh
21 his recollection concerning dates.
22 Mr. Sears, did you have something else?
23 MR. SEARS: I must tell you that I did not
24 fully hear counsel's statements at the bench about some
10:21:30AM 25 of these issues. If the Court heard them clearly and

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1 has no concerns, I can't do much about that. I just
2 don't know exactly what she was saying she thought the
3 problem might be.
4 THE COURT: You want to approach?
10:21:51AM 5 (Sidebar conference.)
6 THE COURT: She indicated that he had some
7 memory issues as a result of chemotherapy.
8 Is that right?
9 MS. EAZER: He has difficulty remembering
10:22:03AM 10 dates and times back then. He remembers the substance
11 of this. He remembered it when we interviewed him.
12 But he did say that since he had chemo some time ago,
13 he has problems with dates, especially 20 years ago.
14 THE COURT: If you want to ask him about that,
10:22:20AM 15 that's fine with me, why he's having difficulty with
16 dates. I think that would be a relevant question. I
17 don't know if that addresses a competency issue,
18 though.
19 MR. SEARS: I certainly didn't hear that part.
10:22:34AM 20 And that's concerning to me because it may implicate
21 more than just having the normal confusion about dates
22 and sequence there if he's really having some organic
23 difficulty with this.
24 I don't know. I'm sure counsel for the state
10:22:50AM 25 doesn't necessarily know. We don't have an examination

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1 of him. I would be willing to see how we do with him
2 liberally using this time line and whether we can get
3 through these dates.
4 Independent of that, I think, as I've already
10:23:07AM 5 said, I have some concerns about the accuracy of his
6 time line that he made. I have no idea until I ask him
7 what he's going to say in 2018 about what he was
8 thinking in 2000 if he can't remember any of it.
9 We'll just have to see. And that just goes to
10:23:24AM 10 his memory. I just think there are some things in here
11 that don't ring true. We'll see where we go with that.
12 THE COURT: Sure. You're obviously allowed to
13 cross-examine him on that as well.
14 MR. SEARS: I just don't want to cross-examine
10:23:35AM 15 somebody about memory problems if he really has some
16 fundamental problem. I don't want to embarrass him. I
17 don't want to bring that out in front of the jury.
18 That's not appropriate. It's not good for him.
19 MS. EAZER: And just to be clear, Mr. Sears
10:23:47AM 20 interviewed him. This witness remembers things. It's
21 just dates and times. And I would just point out the
22 obvious. Every witness that has come in this court has
23 had those same problems.
24 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
10:24:00AM 25 (End of sidebar conference.)

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1 THE COURT: Let's take 10 minutes for the
2 court reporter and then we'll come back.
3 Thank you.
4 (Recess.)
10:24:03AM 5 (Proceedings continued in the presence
6 of jury.)
7 THE COURT: Please continue, Ms. Eazer.
8 MS. EAZER: Thank you, Judge.
9 Q. Mr. Howe, I had asked you about whether you
10:35:57AM 10 had done some notes that kind of helped you or set
11 forth some time frames. Do you remember me asking
12 about that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you -- in 2000 when there was an
10:36:11AM 15 investigation by the church into some of these things
16 we're talking about today, did you prepare kind of a
17 time line for use by the church and church council?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. I'm going to show you, sir, what has been
10:36:26AM 20 marked as Exhibit 71 and ask you if that looks like the
21 time line you prepared reference this matter?
22 A. It does.
23 Q. Now, if you look at that time line as I ask
24 you some questions and when Mr. Sears asks you
10:36:47AM 25 questions, might it help you recall the dates a little

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1 better?
2 A. Thank you.
3 Q. One of the things I want to back up with this
4 time line, looking kind of middle of the page to
10:37:01AM 5 November with the star or an asterisk by it in 1995, do
6 you discuss the meeting I had you testify -- or you set
7 forth in your notes the meeting I had you testify about
8 when you and L J confront Thomas Chantry about
9 bare-bottom spanking of M .
10:37:18AM 10 Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, you said November of 1995, but you have
13 an asterisk there. Did you make a notation on the last
14 page as to why you put an asterisk there?
10:37:34AM 15 A. Yes. Approximate date.
16 Q. Now, I had -- also for clarification, just
17 above that did you note in September of 1995 the
18 defendant began tutoring M J ?
19 A. September '95. Yes.
10:37:53AM 20 Q. Now, as far as the November of 1995 where you
21 said approximate date, is that the only date in your
22 three-page time line that you noted was an approximate
23 date?
24 A. Yes.
10:38:06AM 25 Q. And I asked you, sir, if you recalled

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1 something about a Christmas break as far as something
2 happening over a Christmas break and that was involved
3 in L J coming to you. I think you indicated
4 yes.
10:38:23AM 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. If it happened over Christmas break and you
7 put November of 1995, is it possible your approximate
8 date is a little off?
9 A. Yes.
10:38:36AM 10 Q. All right. After you spoke to C
11 L -- not going to talk about what anybody said.
12 But after you talked to C L , did you and
13 Mr. Owens have an opportunity or did you go to see the
14 defendant, Thomas Chantry?
10:38:59AM 15 A. After C .
16 Q. After you spoke to C ?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And do you remember where you and Shorty first
19 met with the defendant after you had spoken to C
10:39:15AM 20 to speak to him about these matters?
21 A. It would have been in his office.
22 Q. All right.
23 A. At church.
24 Q. And at that time did you and Shorty confront
10:39:28AM 25 him about whether he had done a bare-bottom spanking to

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1 D L ? Just yes or no?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did the defendant admit or deny to you that he
4 had done a bare-bottom spanking on D L ?
10:39:46AM 5 A. The recollection that I have is that initially
6 it was denied.
7 Q. Did he admit to spanking, if you recall?
8 A. I would believe so.
9 Q. But just not bare bottom?
10:40:01AM 10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Now, after that did you have to leave to go on
12 a trip shortly afterwards?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And where were you traveling to?
10:40:12AM 15 A. Israel.
16 Q. How long were you gone, if you remember?
17 A. 10 days.
18 Q. While you were gone, was it your understanding
19 that Shorty was going to be dealing with the issues
10:40:28AM 20 that had arisen and that you had spoken to the
21 defendant about prior to your leaving to Israel?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Now, when you got back, sir, at some point was
24 a decision made to have a council come in and do an
10:40:51AM 25 investigation into some of the things that had

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1 occurred?
2 Let me strike that. I'm jumping ahead.
3 After you returned did it come to your
4 attention that another family had come forward with
10:41:10AM 5 similar allegations? Yes or no.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And was that -- do you remember who that
8 family was?
9 A. W .
10:41:19AM 10 Q. Were you at any time present when T W
11 confronted the defendant about some things?
12 A. Not to my recollection.
13 Q. Now, after now the W family has come
14 forward, was there -- let me just ask you. Did the
10:41:50AM 15 defendant leave at some point?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you recall how quickly after your return
18 from Israel he left?
19 A. May I --
10:42:01AM 20 Q. The record -- if you would like to look at
21 your notes.
22 The record should reflect the witness is
23 looking at his notes.
24 A. Yeah. I indicated that Tom left on
10:42:15AM 25 November 10. I had returned home from Israel on

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1 November 1. So it was fairly soon.
2 Q. All right. At some point is there a decision
3 that you're going to ask for an informal council to
4 come in and look into this matter?
10:42:35AM 5 A. Not at that time.
6 Q. When did that occur, as best you can recall?
7 Or if you need to look at your notes.
8 A. As best that I recall, we were approached
9 later in November by the association to ask if we as a
10:42:56AM 10 church would be interested in having a council to help
11 bring these matters to a resolve.
12 Q. Did you agree to that?
13 A. Yes. And the church as well. This was not an
14 independent decision. We shared it with the church,
10:43:17AM 15 especially the families.
16 Q. Speaking about you shared it with the church,
17 let me ask you. After you had spoken to C and
18 after you and Shorty had confronted Thomas Chantry
19 about that matter, were the other members of the
10:43:45AM 20 congregation informed there was maybe inappropriate
21 conduct with the child? Was the congregation informed
22 about that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. To your knowledge, is that what brought T
10:43:56AM 25 and P W forward?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. As part of having this council come in to look
3 into the matters, did either you or Shorty reach out to
4 L and L J ?
10:44:18AM 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you remember which of you did that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. To your knowledge, did they then prepare some
9 letters about what had happened to their son back in
10:44:30AM 10 1995, 1996?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you or Shorty request the other parents of
13 the children to write letters as well?
14 A. I don't believe so.
10:44:44AM 15 Q. Do you remember that they did in fact write
16 letters?
17 A. C might have put her thoughts in
18 summary. I don't recall about T or P putting
19 anything in written form.
10:45:04AM 20 Q. Do you remember -- and I'm going to come up
21 show you something real quickly.
22 Do you remember -- I'm going to show you
23 what's marked Exhibit 56. Do you remember a packet of
24 documents being kind of kept in the church involving
10:45:20AM 25 the 2000 investigation?

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1 A. Yes. There was a full binder.
2 Q. With these documents?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And if I -- I'm going to flip to a page here.
10:45:37AM 5 Do you remember both L and L J
6 writing their own separate letters?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you remember M J writing his own
9 separate letter?
10:45:47AM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You said C . I'm showing you another
12 letter December 7, 2000.
13 Can you tell us who that letter is addressed
14 to.
10:45:57AM 15 A. To myself and Eric.
16 Q. And looking to the first full paragraph there?
17 A. That's from T and P . They did write a
18 letter too. I did not recall that.
19 Q. Okay.
10:46:12AM 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, during this investigation did you have --
22 not actually during the investigation but following
23 getting all of this together, did you have an occasion
24 to speak to the defendant and confront him about the
10:46:33AM 25 allegations that have been brought forth by T and

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1 P W ?
2 A. During the council?
3 Q. At any point during the later part of 2000, do
4 you recall whether you had any conversations with the
10:46:48AM 5 defendant?
6 A. Prior to his leaving, yes.
7 Q. Specifically about what P and T had
8 come forward with?
9 A. Yes.
10:46:58AM 10 Q. All right. And let me ask you. Did you
11 confront Thomas Chantry about whether he had
12 bare-bottom spanked W W as well?
13 A. Yeah. We did.
14 Q. Do you recall whether he admitted or denied
10:47:17AM 15 bare-bottom spanking of W W ?
16 A. Again, my initial belief would have been there
17 was denial of the bare bottom.
18 Q. Throughout this process, to your recollection,
19 did the defendant always deny the bare-bottom spankings
10:47:46AM 20 of all of the children?
21 A. I cannot recall. He was a total denial.
22 Q. You do recall, though, that he denied each of
23 the allegations at some point when you were speaking to
24 him?
10:48:01AM 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. After the church council came and spoke to --
2 we heard that they spoke to the children, some of the
3 parents, other members of the congregation. Do you
4 remember any of the families being told that Tom
10:48:29AM 5 Chantry was not going to be pastoring elsewhere?
6 A. During the process?
7 Q. During or at the end of it.
8 A. At the end. Yes. I think at the conclusion
9 it was made clear from the council that that would be
10:48:44AM 10 their recommendation.
11 Q. Do you think the families were assured that
12 the defendant wasn't going to be a pastor anywhere in
13 the future?
14 A. Yes.
10:48:52AM 15 Q. And did that seem to be something that they
16 wanted assurance for?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, were the parents told that the church
19 wasn't going to call the police, but if they wanted to,
10:49:09AM 20 they could?
21 A. I think at the conclusion of the council,
22 anyone would have been able to call the police, whether
23 it was us as a church, as elders, as families,
24 individuals. There was no instruction on that.
10:49:26AM 25 Q. Right. And, sir, did you yourself contact the

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1 police?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And I was going to say in either your
4 individual capacity or your capacity as an elder of the
10:49:40AM 5 church.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Is that something today you regret?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. After this ended and Thomas Chantry is no
10:49:53AM 10 longer with Miller Valley, was there still some kind of
11 fallout? Did some people leave the church?
12 A. Yes. Over the course of time. For various
13 reasons people leave.
14 Q. All right. Was it something difficult for the
10:50:13AM 15 church to --
16 A. Very.
17 Q. Let me ask you. If it were said in this court
18 that you hated Tom Chantry and always hated Tom
19 Chantry, would you agree with that statement?
10:50:30AM 20 A. No.
21 Q. Back in 1995, when Tom Chantry came to the
22 church initially, did you dislike him?
23 A. No.
24 Q. After L J came to you with the
10:50:42AM 25 allegations about the bare-bottom spanking of M

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1 and you confronted the defendant, did you dislike him
2 after that?
3 A. I was concerned.
4 Q. Did you bear a grudge that you wanted to get
10:51:01AM 5 back at him for that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And when new allegations surfaced in 2000 with
8 respect to D L and the W children, did you
9 hate the defendant for that?
10:51:19AM 10 A. It was certainly -- if I hated anything, it
11 was hating what he did, his actions.
12 Q. All right. Did you dislike Tom Chantry so
13 much that you made up anything you've told us here in
14 court today?
10:51:38AM 15 A. No, ma'am.
16 Q. And in 2000 did you work to forgive him even?
17 A. Well, I think that was part of the process of
18 the council was to be able to have the families be
19 resolved of what had happened and hopefully to have the
10:52:01AM 20 pastor come and ask for forgiveness and to repent of
21 what he had done.
22 Q. In 2015 do you recall this matter coming up
23 again?
24 A. Yes.
10:52:18AM 25 Q. Were you still an elder with the church at

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1 that time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And how did you first learn about another
4 child coming forward or adult?
10:52:30AM 5 A. An adult now. Yes. The initial call that I
6 got came from Bob Selph -- informed me that H
7 had --
8 Q. We're not going to go into what people said.
9 We don't expect everyone to know the rules of court.
10:52:54AM 10 You get a call from Bob Selph. As a result of
11 that call, did you and Shorty attend a meeting at the
12 E ' home?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you remember what just in general again,
10:53:11AM 15 not specifics, what in general was being discussed at
16 the E ' home?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And let me just ask you in addition to -- was
19 there some discussion about what J was reporting?
10:53:27AM 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And in addition to discussion about what J
22 was reporting, was there also discussion about some of
23 the things that had occurred back in 1995 to 2000?
24 A. I'm sure. Yes.
10:53:42AM 25 Q. Do you recall if there was discussion about

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1 tutoring and paddling?
2 A. It was likely that we reviewed all that had
3 taken place with the family. Yeah.
4 Q. Okay. And do you --
10:54:09AM 5 A. They were there at the time.
6 Q. The E ?
7 A. Yeah. They were in the church at that time.
8 Q. Was it your impression that H knew about
9 the things that had happened back in --
10:54:20AM 10 A. Oh, yes.
11 Q. And so throughout the course of that meeting,
12 do you think some of the details of what had been
13 alleged back in 1995 to 2000 were discussed?
14 A. Yes.
10:54:33AM 15 Q. Was there a decision at the end of the meeting
16 what was going to happen?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Was there discussion about whether someone
19 would be making a report to the police?
10:54:45AM 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who was -- in your understanding, who was
22 going to be contacting the police, sir?
23 A. The E family.
24 Q. And do you recall if there was a
10:55:07AM 25 Pastor Rydberg there as well?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you recall there being an off-duty police
3 officer there?
4 A. Yes.
10:55:11AM 5 Q. Was it made clear that somebody -- the E
6 were going to go to the police?
7 A. At the time of the end of the meeting, I don't
8 think they'd made a final decision, but it was clear
9 that they were heading in that direction.
10:55:30AM 10 Q. Was it likewise clear that a report would need
11 to be made?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And was there discussion about perhaps the
14 church members also being mandatory reporters?
10:55:40AM 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, after that -- well, let me ask you. At
17 that meeting was there discussion about the necessity
18 perhaps of informing law enforcement about the
19 incidents that occurred back in 1995 to 2000?
10:56:02AM 20 A. Could you repeat the question.
21 Q. Yes. At that same meeting at the E '
22 house was there a discussion -- in addition to the
23 E reporting what J had come forward with, was
24 there a discussion about the need to have Miller Valley
10:56:17AM 25 come forward and provide the information from what

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1 happened back in 1995 to 2000?
2 A. Whether it was discussed or not at that
3 meeting, I don't recall. But we were certainly
4 prepared to deliver that information --
10:56:30AM 5 Q. All right.
6 A. -- whenever it was asked for.
7 Q. To your knowledge, was that information
8 subsequently delivered by Pastor Marley?
9 A. Yes, it was.
10:56:40AM 10 Q. Since that time you've been interviewed by
11 Mr. Sears?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You were interviewed by the detective at the
14 time?
10:56:56AM 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Detective Bernard?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Sir, did you try to be as forthcoming and
19 honest as you could with the detective about what had
10:57:13AM 20 happened back in 1995 to 2000?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And today you're having some difficulty with
23 dates. Not surprisingly. It's quite a while ago. Do
24 you still pretty clearly remember these events
10:57:29AM 25 nonetheless even if you don't remember the specific

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1 dates?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The matters that you've testified to before
4 this jury today, do you still remember them fairly
10:57:41AM 5 clear in your mind?
6 A. Clearer now. Yes. With the refreshment and
7 the meeting with the E family really brought back
8 a lot.
9 Q. In 2015, when all of this came to law
10:57:55AM 10 enforcement's attention, sir, were you aware of prior
11 to -- I'm going to be real clear about this -- prior to
12 learning about J E coming forward, was Miller
13 Valley, to your knowledge, having any disputes with
14 ARBCA prior to J coming forward with these
10:58:16AM 15 allegations?
16 A. Disputes.
17 Q. Disagreements about anything that you can
18 recall?
19 A. No.
10:58:23AM 20 Q. At some point did you become aware that Tom
21 Chantry was applying to have the church he was
22 pastoring in Wisconsin become a member of ARBCA?
23 A. We heard that. Yes.
24 Q. Do you have a recollection as to whether that
10:58:44AM 25 was before J E came forward or after J

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1 E came forward?
2 A. I do not.
3 Q. Do you think it was near in time one way or
4 the other?
10:58:56AM 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, again I just want you to answer yes or no
7 to begin with. But did Miller Valley through one of
8 its elders, to your knowledge, voice some objection to
9 Tom Chantry bringing a church into membership at ARBCA?
10:59:21AM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you remember who it was that did that?
12 A. Well, it was either one of the two, Chris
13 Marley, Jr., or senior.
14 Q. All right. Was that something they did on
10:59:35AM 15 their own or was it something all of the elders
16 including the pastor elder discussed and made a joint
17 decision?
18 A. We all discussed it.
19 Q. All right. I want you to try and maybe be
10:59:54AM 20 as -- just in general what was your objection to Tom
21 Chantry bringing a church -- strike that.
22 Let me ask you. Did you even know before that
23 yourself that Tom Chantry was a pastor in Wisconsin?
24 A. We had heard. Yes.
11:00:15AM 25 Q. And what was your objection to him bringing

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1 his church into ARBCA or becoming a member of ARBCA?
2 A. I think it was the resolve of what took place
3 back in 2000 that for the family's sake. There had not
4 been proper point of forgiveness and sadness in what
11:00:49AM 5 had happened. It hadn't been complete. The council
6 came but it never finished.
7 Q. All right. Let me ask you a little bit more
8 specifically, sir. Was part of the recommendation
9 after the council came that the defendant apologized --
11:01:10AM 10 repented for what he had done and apologized to each of
11 the families?
12 A. That was the recommendation.
13 Q. And just yes or no. But, to your knowledge,
14 did that happen?
11:01:20AM 15 A. No.
16 Q. And was that one of the reasons you were
17 objecting to him becoming a member of the overall ARBCA
18 association of Baptist churches?
19 A. Yes.
11:01:38AM 20 Q. To be clear, sir, I'm asking you your
21 opposition to that. Did it have anything to do with
22 your personal dislike for this man or was it because of
23 your feelings that he hadn't perhaps done as he was
24 asked?
11:01:54AM 25 A. That would be the correct answer, the latter.

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1 Q. Do you know -- just seeing if this maybe
2 refreshes your recollection. If it doesn't, please say
3 so. Do you know if one of the concerns that was voiced
4 on behalf of the elders to ARBCA when you were
11:02:15AM 5 objecting to his ability to join -- his church to join
6 ARBCA, was one of the underlying reasons because of the
7 new issue arising with J E ?
8 A. Yes. Most likely.
9 Q. All right. Does that refresh your
11:02:34AM 10 recollection as to whether that might have occurred
11 when there were discussions taking place?
12 A. It was so close in time. I just don't recall
13 the actual sequence. It was close.
14 Q. Then that's what your answer should be. Okay.
11:02:52AM 15 In the end, sir, I just want to -- you can't
16 speak for Chris Marley, I know, or for Shorty. But not
17 only the objection of him joining ARBCA but your coming
18 here today -- I understand it's personal to an extent
19 because you were there.
11:03:15AM 20 But do you have any other reason to have a
21 personal grudge against Tom Chantry other than what
22 happened in your church?
23 A. Other than what happened in our church, no.
24 MS. EAZER: Thank you very much.
11:03:32AM 25 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.

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1 MS. EAZER: I have no further questions.
2 THE COURT: Cross-examination, please.
3 MR. SEARS: Thank you, Your Honor.
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION
11:04:03AM 5 BY MR. SEARS:
6 Q. Good morning. Do you remember we talked back
7 in February 2017 in Ms. Eazer's office about this case?
8 A. I recall.
9 Q. It has been a while?
11:04:14AM 10 A. It has been.
11 Q. You still have the time-line exhibit in front
12 of you; is that right?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. Before I ask you questions about that and many
11:04:22AM 15 of the other things you told us here today, could we
16 talk a little bit about the structure and operation of
17 Miller Valley Baptist Church in the early '90s through
18 the time that Tom left in late 2000?
19 You joined the church in 1987, '88?
11:04:41AM 20 A. '87, '88.
21 Q. You weren't an elder of the church
22 immediately; is that right?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. In 1991, '92 you said you became an elder of
11:04:50AM 25 the church; right?

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1 A. It might have been '91. It was early in the
2 '90s.
3 Q. You've been --
4 A. I've been at the church for two or three
11:05:01AM 5 years.
6 Q. Same rule with me.
7 A. I'm sorry. Yes.
8 Q. One at a time.
9 A. I was doing great.
11:05:08AM 10 Q. Let me try to speak clearly and stop, and if
11 we could have just a little air space between the
12 answer. The court reporter will not be disturbed.
13 Is that fair?
14 A. Yes.
11:05:27AM 15 Q. And the reason for that is she can't
16 accurately take down anything when two or more people
17 are talking at the same time. And she also can't see
18 you nodding your head. If you could answer out loud,
19 please.
11:05:41AM 20 A. I'm sorry. The question, then, was?
21 Q. I hadn't asked a question yet. We're talking
22 about how we're going to do this.
23 A. Sure.
24 Q. When you joined the Miller Valley Baptist
11:05:54AM 25 Church in the late '80s and became an elder a few years

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1 later, the elder process is actually fairly formal
2 inside the reformed baptist church; right?
3 A. Yes. I would consider it formal.
4 Q. There is actually sort of a calling? That's
11:06:11AM 5 the phrase that you used. You're called by the church
6 to be an elder?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is there any sort of a ceremony inside the
9 church where you are formally made an elder?
11:06:25AM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Does it involve the laying on of hands?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Whose hands are being laid on who?
14 A. The pastor and any other elder at the time.
11:06:36AM 15 Q. And when you became an elder in the early
16 '90s, were there other elders in the church at that
17 time?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Who was the other elder?
11:06:46AM 20 A. Bob Jensen.
21 Q. And he left at some point; is that right?
22 A. Moved to Wickenburg.
23 Q. And the pastor was Bob Selph, about whom we've
24 heard?
11:06:57AM 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. You became good friends with Pastor Selph;
2 correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you remain good friends with him through
11:07:05AM 5 today?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. He's a particular friend of yours. Is that
8 fair to say?
9 A. We share three grandchildren.
11:07:13AM 10 Q. Congratulations.
11 A. His son married our daughter.
12 Q. And so that makes him even more than just a
13 friend. He's family?
14 A. Correct.
11:07:22AM 15 Q. So it must have been disheartening for you and
16 some of the other church members to hear in early
17 January of 1995 that Pastor Bob Selph had been called
18 to another church; is that right?
19 A. Yes. We were sad.
11:07:38AM 20 Q. Did you know that was coming before it was
21 announced?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You were sitting there with everybody else
24 when the news broke?
11:07:46AM 25 A. The news broke with just myself and L

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1 J in the office first and foremost.
2 Q. When do you remember L J becoming an
3 elder of the church?
4 A. A year after I did.
11:07:58AM 5 Q. Mr. Jensen was an elder -- there was an
6 overlap between the two of you for a short period of
7 time and then L J came?
8 A. Yes. He filled in the slot when Bob left.
9 Q. We've talked a lot about elders in this trial.
11:08:12AM 10 You're the first we've had here in court. Can you tell
11 the people in the jury what an elder is in the Reformed
12 Baptist Church and what you're duties are.
13 A. I think the elder in any church is to be
14 shepherd, to be responsible to the flock, to be of help
11:08:30AM 15 to the pastor, to be able and ready to teach and even
16 to preach, to be considerate and aware of the needs of
17 the body.
18 Q. So in the Reformed Baptist Church, in
19 particular Miller Valley Baptist Church, your position
11:08:49AM 20 as elder was very much at the top of the organizational
21 chart. Would that be fair to say?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. With the pastor there having pastoral
24 responsibilities that were somewhat different than your
11:09:00AM 25 responsibilities as an elder. Fair to say?

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1 A. Fair.
2 Q. When you have more than one elder there, was
3 some sort of informal sharing of those responsibilities
4 between you and the other elder?
11:09:11AM 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So it would obviously be important to have a
7 good working relationship and personal relationship
8 with both the pastor and other elder?
9 A. Yes.
11:09:21AM 10 Q. It could be trouble for the church if there
11 was friction or disagreement on a regular basis between
12 any of the three of you?
13 A. Not healthy.
14 Q. When Pastor Bob Selph was there, sounds like
11:09:34AM 15 from what we've heard that things were going very well
16 for the church.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In terms of how everybody perceived the
19 operation of the church, everybody was happy with the
11:09:42AM 20 job that the elders and pastor were doing?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when Pastor Selph made this announcement,
23 one of the very next things that you and L J
24 did was to undertake a search for a replacement pastor;
11:09:58AM 25 correct?

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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. You told us that you used announcements and
3 there was an internet of some sort in the early '90s?
4 A. I don't know if we had the internet. We let
11:10:07AM 5 our association know, 60 to 70 churches that were
6 there.
7 Q. Did you know Tom Chantry personally before
8 1995?
9 A. We had met.
11:10:18AM 10 Q. Tell us about that.
11 A. He was a student at Westminster in San Diego.
12 Q. Seminary?
13 A. Seminary. So he would come and visit our
14 church on holiday.
11:10:30AM 15 Q. He knew Bob Selph also?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And Tom's father, Walt Chantry, was a
18 well-known figure in the Reformed Baptist movement in
19 that time period?
11:10:41AM 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you know Walt Chantry?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When it became time to find a replacement in
24 the first part of 1995, I imagine that you and L
11:10:54AM 25 J and other people in the church were pleased to

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1 hear that Walt Chantry's son Tom was interested in the
2 job?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And there is in the church something called
11:11:05AM 5 being "candidating," as a verb? You're a candidate?
6 You come and candidate at the church?
7 A. You come and preach. You come and get to know
8 families. You come and have a pot luck meal after
9 church and try to be as familiar with the body as
11:11:25AM 10 possible.
11 Q. It's a church try out?
12 A. You could say that.
13 Q. Working both ways, as you said before, to see
14 if the church thought that Tom was a good idea and
11:11:36AM 15 whether Tom thought the church was a good idea?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. This from your time line may have happened in
18 March of 1995 over the course of a couple days. Is
19 that what your notes indicate?
11:11:52AM 20 A. He came over that weekend to candidate.
21 Q. You remember that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you have other candidates candidating?
24 A. No.
11:12:00AM 25 Q. Just Tom?

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1 A. We did talk to several other men but never got
2 to the point of candidacy.
3 Q. You tried to cram activities and things for
4 Tom to do and people to do with Tom into this weekend
11:12:16AM 5 so he would have as much exposure to the people in your
6 little church as possible; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Sounds like it went well.
9 A. Yes. I don't recall anything on that weekend
11:12:29AM 10 that would not have gone well.
11 Q. Tom was a very young then, wasn't he?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If I told you he was 24, not yet 25, does that
14 sound right?
11:12:39AM 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And Bob Selph is older?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And so you're replacing Bob Selph, who had
19 been there since the '70s?
11:12:50AM 20 A. He was there 18 years.
21 Q. So replacing an older gentleman with his own
22 family, his own wife and children, all part of this
23 little church, with a single, childless, 24-year-old
24 man?
11:13:03AM 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. It was a big leap of faith?
2 A. Yes, it was.
3 Q. You thought at the time collectively -- when I
4 say "you," you and L J and the church, that
11:13:12AM 5 this could work; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you wanted this to work because there were
8 so many things about this idea that were interesting.
9 Taking the church in a different direction with a much
11:13:25AM 10 younger pastor would be one of them; right?
11 A. I don't think it was taking the church in a
12 different direction as much as it was bringing in a
13 young pastor and giving him an opportunity to do what
14 he had been trained to do.
11:13:39AM 15 Q. Would it be fair to say that Tom impressed you
16 personally with his theological knowledge at that
17 point? He was well versed in theology and particularly
18 the theology of this church?
19 A. Yes.
11:13:52AM 20 Q. He was student of the history of the Reformed
21 Baptist movement; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. His dad was a long-time, well-respected
24 preacher?
11:14:03AM 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. That was a good thing?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, let's move forward a few weeks from June.
4 If I told you your time line says that Tom appeared as
11:14:15AM 5 the interim pastor on June 10, 1995; is that right?
6 A. Yes. It was right after his graduation.
7 Q. That's my wedding anniversary. I know that
8 date well. So the Fourth of July would have been a few
9 weeks later; correct?
11:14:33AM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I heard you tell Ms. Eazer here and the folks
12 in the jury what you remember of this incident at this
13 Fourth of July gathering. If I could ask you to think
14 back, then we'll talk about some more details there.
11:14:49AM 15 Tom was already moved into the little
16 parsonage house by that Fourth of July?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. In effect, this gathering was happening around
19 and in his home? That was just, basically, in his
11:15:02AM 20 yard?
21 A. In his yard and in the parking lot.
22 Q. We've seen a number of pictures here taken not
23 long ago. But everybody seems to agree that's more or
24 less the way the buildings looked at the time. Where
11:15:18AM 25 the parsonage is today is where it was in 1995?

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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. The church is approximately the same
3 configuration now, the same distance from the parsonage
4 as it was back in 1995? Hasn't move?
11:15:37AM 5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Things have been torn down in front and
7 changes in the surrounding buildings? The car lot is
8 gone, for example; right?
9 A. I don't think the car lot -- the car lot is
11:15:54AM 10 gone.
11 Q. There was a car lot.
12 A. There was a used car lot next door. Yes.
13 It's gone.
14 Q. You can see a lot more of the church from
11:16:05AM 15 Whipple Street now?
16 A. Somewhat. Yes.
17 Q. Now, on that day you said there were a fair
18 percentage of the church membership there, in your
19 recollection, for the Fourth of July celebration;
11:16:22AM 20 right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And then some other people -- there was
23 nonchurch car parking people that were in the general
24 vicinity?
11:16:31AM 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Apparently there were guests of church members
2 who came? People you might not know directly were
3 obviously invited there by fellow members of your
4 church?
11:16:42AM 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you remember some people sitting actually
7 on the lawn of the little parsonage inside that little
8 wall, sitting in chairs on the lawn there?
9 A. Yeah. That's where it was shady.
11:17:01AM 10 Q. And there was a big tree there?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. As we sit here today, you can call up a memory
13 of people being in that yard?
14 A. Yes.
11:17:10AM 15 Q. And where was the food set up? Is that
16 outdoors?
17 A. It was outdoors.
18 Q. Somewhere by the church in the parking lot?
19 A. Might have been on the lawn, a table set up.
11:17:27AM 20 Q. This started in the late afternoon?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Went on through dinner time, and fireworks
23 around 9:00 o'clock?
24 A. Yes.
11:17:37AM 25 Q. Everybody at church had a real good view of

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1 the fireworks because the high school was just --
2 A. Right across the street.
3 Q. Good place to watch?
4 A. Yes.
11:17:46AM 5 Q. You remember Tom being there?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. This would have been one of the early
8 gatherings outside the official church that Tom would
9 have been present for with lots of people in the
11:18:04AM 10 church?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This is a good time for people to get to know
13 each other in an informal family style setting; right?
14 A. Yes.
11:18:12AM 15 Q. You were there with your family?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And do you remember any other people from the
18 church specifically being there that day?
19 A. The J s, W s. I'm sure some of the
11:18:25AM 20 L family was there. I can't remember everybody.
21 Q. The usual suspects?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. There were a lot of kids there?
24 A. Yes.
11:18:35AM 25 Q. That's one of the characteristics. You said

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1 Meals on Wheels program the kids always got involved.
2 That was the way this church operated in general? The
3 kids were included in everything they could be
4 reasonably included in?
11:18:50AM 5 A. At least for our family.
6 Q. And other families?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. One of the reasons it was attractive to you is
9 it was family oriented.
11:19:01AM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You talk about this water fight. In the mid
12 '90s that seemed to be just baked into Prescott's idea
13 of what you did on the Fourth of July?
14 A. From downtown to everywhere else. Yes.
11:19:15AM 15 Q. It just seemed to be what you did until the
16 fireworks started?
17 A. Tradition.
18 Q. Typically the kids but invariably the adults
19 got caught in the cross fire?
11:19:25AM 20 A. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the adults
21 were behind the trigger.
22 Q. Do you remember kids on the roof of the
23 parsonage during the water fight?
24 A. I don't remember.
11:19:40AM 25 Q. Is it possible?

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1 A. It's certainly possible. Yeah.
2 Q. The water fight included squirt guns and water
3 balloons?
4 A. Correct.
11:19:49AM 5 Q. Do you remember by then somebody had invented
6 these super soaker mega water pistols that can shoot
7 lots of water --
8 A. Oh yeah.
9 Q. -- a lot harder, a lot further, than the
11:20:01AM 10 hand-held water pistol?
11 A. They're cool.
12 Q. They were there?
13 A. I would guess so. I don't remember all the
14 apparatus.
11:20:10AM 15 Q. Thinking back to water fights, there would be
16 a lot of running around and hiding and ambushing
17 people; right?
18 A. Yes. Especially as it was getting dark.
19 Q. And this water fight went on for quite some
11:20:26AM 20 time?
21 A. I don't remember the length.
22 Q. And were your kids part of it or were they
23 older?
24 A. My daughter probably wouldn't have been
11:20:37AM 25 involved. My youngest son would have been involved

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1 probably.
2 Q. It was just harmless fun? That's the way
3 everybody looked at it? Kid being kids?
4 A. Yes.
11:20:47AM 5 Q. And do you have any recollection of having any
6 conversations with -- you and Tom directly anytime
7 during this late afternoon water fight leading up to
8 the meal, visiting with Tom?
9 A. Conversation specifically with Tom?
11:21:11AM 10 Q. You and Tom.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember Tom being angry or upset?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did that strike you as strange?
11:21:18AM 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did he tell you what he was angry or upset
17 about?
18 A. The amount of people that were there and just
19 roaming everywhere. I think it was a little
11:21:31AM 20 overwhelming for him.
21 Q. That was your take? He was just overwhelmed
22 by this?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Was he angry or threatening?
11:21:47AM 25 A. He wasn't threatening me in the conversation.

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1 He was probably angered that he wasn't aware of all the
2 activities that were about to happen because he was so
3 new at the church. Something that we were used to
4 every Fourth of July.
11:22:01AM 5 Q. Did you try and counsel him and say this is
6 the way we do things --
7 A. I remember sitting on the stone wall with him,
8 saying this is what we do. This is part of our
9 celebration of the Fourth of July. There is no need to
11:22:20AM 10 be overreacting to it.
11 Q. So this is -- what you're seeing is Tom
12 essentially misunderstanding or failing to appreciate
13 what you thought was a perfectly normal church
14 activity, and Tom just isn't reacting to it as you
11:22:37AM 15 would have expected. Fair to say?
16 A. That's fair to say.
17 Q. Did Tom calm down?
18 A. I think so. I recall later in the evening he
19 went into the parsonage and just retired early.
11:22:53AM 20 Q. You weren't concerned? You didn't consider
21 saying you better go inside and not come back out?
22 A. I didn't say that.
23 Q. He just seemed to be a little agitated and ill
24 at ease?
11:23:07AM 25 A. Uncomfortable.

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1 Q. You really didn't know him well at this point.
2 Fair to say?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So this is new for him, new for you and new
11:23:17AM 5 for the church how he was going to react to this?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you said you didn't see the interaction
8 between young M J and Tom that led to this
9 report of some incident between the two? You didn't
11:23:35AM 10 see that?
11 A. I didn't see it.
12 Q. Were there other adults and children in the
13 area where it supposedly happened at the time it
14 happened?
11:23:42AM 15 A. There were people everywhere. The parking
16 lot, the property, was full of people.
17 Q. It would be hard for you to imagine that
18 somebody other than M J would have seen what is
19 supposed to have happened? Almost impossible to
11:24:02AM 20 imagine how it went unnoticed; right?
21 A. I would think that somebody might have
22 noticed.
23 Q. The story told in this trial by M J is
24 that Tom Chantry came out, essentially threatened
11:24:16AM 25 people, said the next person that does this is going to

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1 get it. He couldn't control himself. He squirted Tom.
2 Tom punched him in the jaw with a closed fist.
3 A. That's the story I heard.
4 Q. From M J ?
11:24:34AM 5 A. And L J . Right.
6 Q. Because M J had told him that; right?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. You don't have any reason to think that L
9 J saw what happened between Tom and his son?
11:24:40AM 10 A. I don't recall if L saw it.
11 Q. That's pretty shocking, isn't it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And so -- M was 12 years old then, right?
14 Sort of a big kid, but he was 12 years old?
11:24:55AM 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And so Tom was talked to by you and L
17 J as the elders of the church?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. What did you say to him?
11:25:10AM 20 A. Why? Why would you do that?
21 Q. Assuming it was true.
22 And what did Tom say?
23 A. Again, part of my recollection of the evening
24 and all that was happening, that it was harmless from
11:25:26AM 25 Tom. That would have been his response, that it wasn't

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1 intentional.
2 Q. Did he say he hit him but he didn't mean to?
3 A. I don't recall even if he said he meant to. I
4 just know that according to L , his son had been
11:25:43AM 5 struck.
6 Q. Excuse me for being impertinent here, but I
7 think in many places an account of an adult punching a
8 child of any age, 12 years old, in the jaw with a
9 closed fist would be very important.
11:25:58AM 10 A. It's a serious matter.
11 Q. And demanding of something?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And so you talked to Tom. And am I right in
14 saying that he never admitted to you that he punched
11:26:15AM 15 M J in the face for any reason? Just said that
16 didn't happen?
17 A. I don't recall him saying that it didn't
18 happen.
19 Q. You recall that he said that it happened but
11:26:30AM 20 it was harmless?
21 A. In the light of the moment -- I didn't say it
22 was harmless. I would have said that he probably would
23 have thought it was harmless.
24 Q. Punching a child in the jaw?
11:26:46AM 25 A. Yeah.

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1 Q. That's what you remember?
2 A. A lot was happening that night. I don't
3 recall the actual incident, but I do recall L
4 coming up later and saying he would address that issue
11:26:58AM 5 with Tom.
6 Q. Was L with you when you talked to Tom
7 about this?
8 A. We had meetings later.
9 Q. I'm talking about that night.
11:27:06AM 10 A. That night, no.
11 Q. Just you and Tom?
12 A. Yes. Sitting on the wall.
13 Q. Again, second time you were sitting on the
14 wall?
11:27:19AM 15 A. I don't know if it was two times or one time.
16 Q. So did you see L J talking with Tom
17 alone after you understood that M J had been
18 making these allegations? Did you see that?
19 A. I don't recall.
11:27:38AM 20 Q. Do you know, as you sit here today, whether
21 L J talked to Tom that night?
22 A. L said he was going to. Yes.
23 Q. That night --
24 A. That night.
11:27:47AM 25 Q. -- before he left?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Did you talk to M J ?
3 A. I don't recall talking to M J that
4 night about this incident.
11:27:57AM 5 Q. Yes. So when Tom said something, the details
6 of which are not clear to you now, said something that
7 you took as him saying that whatever it was, it was
8 harmless, that was good enough for you?
9 A. No. It was to me important that his father,
11:28:19AM 10 M 's father, would be engaged, as he was also an
11 elder at the time to be -- he wasn't an elder at the
12 time. He was added a year later. That he would be
13 concerned about what happened to his son.
14 Q. Looking at the time line you have here --
11:28:46AM 15 A. L wasn't --
16 Q. L wasn't.
17 A. I'm sorry.
18 Q. L wasn't an elder for some time; correct?
19 A. After -- yes. After Bob Jensen left L was
11:29:00AM 20 an elder. I'm sorry.
21 Q. Your impression after that night was that for
22 whatever reason L J was willing to let whatever
23 happened between Tom and his son go?
24 A. Yes.
11:29:12AM 25 Q. Let the fact that his son said the pastor

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1 punched me in the jaw with a closed fist -- just let it
2 go?
3 A. Again, I wasn't privy to any conversations
4 that L might have had alone with the pastor. But
11:29:30AM 5 time wore on and the incident went away.
6 Q. Well, you said this was concerning to you?
7 A. It was.
8 Q. You were an elder in the same position as
9 L J . Are you telling us here today that you
11:29:44AM 10 thought you had discharged your responsibility as an
11 elder of this church by leaving it up to L ?
12 A. No. We had discussions together.
13 Q. You and L ?
14 A. Yes. L is also the father to the son. I
11:30:00AM 15 yielded to him. If he felt it was comfortable to let
16 this go, then I would concur with him as a co-elder.
17 Q. Did you make any effort to canvass the group
18 there, either that night or sometime later, to see if
19 anybody else saw exactly what was happening between Tom
11:30:21AM 20 and M J because there was a dispute, there were
21 two different versions of what happened? Did you go
22 and try to find anybody that could confirm one side or
23 the other's version of the events?
24 A. No.
11:30:33AM 25 Q. Do you know if L did that?

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1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Have you ever spoken to anybody since that
3 night that says I was there and I saw what happened?
4 A. No.
11:30:42AM 5 Q. This was over; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Police were not called?
8 A. No.
9 Q. M didn't require medical attention?
11:30:52AM 10 A. Not that I was aware of.
11 Q. Did you see any injuries on M ?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you even see M ?
14 A. Well, he was there.
11:31:01AM 15 Q. After this supposed incident? Didn't see any
16 red marks or anything like that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Was he crying when you saw him?
19 A. I don't recall him crying.
11:31:08AM 20 Q. Kind of a big kid and tough kid when he was
21 12?
22 A. Yes. Probably good thing he didn't swing
23 back.
24 Q. Became a football player later?
11:31:19AM 25 A. Yes, he did.

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1 Q. At this point -- the next thing in the
2 sequence of events that's of interest in this case is
3 the tutoring by Tom of M J ; right?
4 A. Yes.
11:31:36AM 5 Q. And your time line says that began in
6 September of 1995. Do you have an independent
7 recollection whether that's an accurate time frame?
8 A. I do not have an independent recollection
9 other than what I wrote down. I prepared this in
11:31:55AM 10 December of 2000.
11 Q. It's dated December 13, 2000?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. It says it's from the elders of Miller Valley
14 Baptist Church. This is the council called in late
11:32:13AM 15 2000; correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Its says this is an amended time line; right?
18 Or an updated time line?
19 A. Well, it was only done once. We didn't update
11:32:26AM 20 after we put it together.
21 Q. I'm just looking --
22 A. Oh. "Updated," in parentheses. Must have
23 been some changes made.
24 Q. So there was an earlier version?
11:32:36AM 25 A. Yes. If this one was updated, there was.

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1 Q. So the earlier version is lost in history
2 apparently?
3 A. It would have been close because this was
4 prepared -- this was asked by the counsel so they could
11:32:50AM 5 have -- so they knew what they were coming into.
6 Q. You don't remember, I assume, what, if any,
7 updates were made in this version from an earlier
8 version?
9 A. No.
11:33:02AM 10 Q. And did you work with Shorty Owens in putting
11 together this time line, or is this your work product?
12 A. I put it together and shared it together to
13 see if he agreed or something else needed to be added.
14 Q. I see one date on the first page. Says
11:33:19AM 15 that -- towards the middle of that first page it says
16 that on February 17, 1999 -- that's my birthday. All
17 major events are apparently related to me.
18 '96 Tom is ordained as pastor. Is that year
19 incorrect?
11:33:40AM 20 A. I don't know why it would be.
21 Q. So it was the following February into the next
22 year? That's when Tom was ordained?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Let me understand how the church reacted to
11:33:55AM 25 Tom. Here's Tom. He comes in in early June, and he's

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1 the interim pastor. And you said that after the summer
2 was over there was another step taken. And it looks
3 like from your time line that was on September 27,
4 1995. The church had an annual business meeting, voted
11:34:17AM 5 to call Thomas as senior pastor. That's church speak
6 for offering him the job?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. He's called. Doesn't mean you pick up the
9 phone. He was officially called by the church?
11:34:29AM 10 A. Yes. He'd been there since June.
11 Q. So another step along the process of making
12 Tom the permanent pastor took place in September even
13 though this incident that we talked about of allegedly
14 punching the child of one of the elders in the jaw had
11:34:47AM 15 already happened. The church moved ahead with you
16 supporting it to make Tom the senior pastor at that
17 point; right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And then in this time line, because it's
11:35:02AM 20 relevant to the church council in 2000, then there is a
21 discussion -- the copy I have is redacted.
22 Does your copy have lines through it?
23 A. What page?
24 Q. The first page. Are some of the names crossed
11:35:19AM 25 out?

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1 A. No.
2 Q. We would say you have an unredacted copy.
3 Says that the J s agreed to have Tom tutor their son
4 M . That was in September sometime. The
11:35:33AM 5 understanding you and Shorty had, that was the time
6 frame; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you aware of it at the time it was
9 happening back in 1995; right?
11:35:41AM 10 A. That there was tutoring. Yes.
11 Q. And this was part of this process, I imagine,
12 of Tom trying to become not only just the pastor of
13 this church but connected to the families? This would
14 be a good thing for Tom to do to be of service to the
11:35:58AM 15 families?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That would be the same with sharing meals in
18 your home, various placed? That would also be an
19 important part of Tom gaining acceptance by the church
11:36:10AM 20 community; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the church community feeling better and
23 better about Tom?
24 A. Sure.
11:36:17AM 25 Q. And looking back on it now, did the idea of

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1 the church pastor, as the head of the religious part of
2 the church, changing roles and actually being a tutor
3 to one of the children in the parish -- did that seem
4 like some potential source of conflict?
11:36:43AM 5 A. Initially to me, no.
6 Q. Have you thought about it differently since
7 then?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And were you aware in September of 1995 that
11:36:57AM 10 there had been some discussion between your friend and
11 co-elder L J and Tom about Tom being able to
12 discipline M during these tutoring sessions if it
13 happened? Did you know about that at the time?
14 A. No, I did not. I did later when L
11:37:16AM 15 informed me.
16 Q. Much later?
17 A. Well, after the initial start of the tutoring
18 sessions.
19 Q. And were you aware that L J
11:37:28AM 20 disciplined his own children by spanking them from time
21 to time?
22 A. I think I would be aware of that.
23 Q. And there was no prohibition in the Reformed
24 Baptist Church or in particular Miller Valley Baptist
11:37:45AM 25 Church against parents spanking their own children?

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1 That was not forbidden by the church at that time;
2 right?
3 A. No.
4 Q. It wasn't encouraged, just not prohibited?
11:37:55AM 5 A. It was never discussed as a matter of
6 church --
7 Q. Up to each family?
8 A. Individual family.
9 Q. And were you aware as this tutoring went on,
11:38:09AM 10 September, October into November, how it was going?
11 Did you hear from L that it seemed to be going well
12 with M ?
13 A. I don't recall hearing much. He felt that his
14 son who -- was doing better in school because of it.
11:38:28AM 15 Q. You new little M J back in 1995; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Very different from his brother? Very
18 different kind of kid?
19 A. Two different peas in a pod.
11:38:39AM 20 Q. We've seen both of them here in court. The
21 differences are, I think, still here all these years
22 later. They're just different people.
23 Would it be fair to say M was bookish and
24 studious and less athletic than his older brother?
11:38:59AM 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. His older brother, all American kid, loved
2 sports and maybe not so interested in school? Is that
3 the reasonable stereotype of these two kids back then
4 when they were 12 and 10?
11:39:15AM 5 A. That's a fair assessment. Yes.
6 Q. So it wasn't surprising to you that M was
7 being tutored because he was a gifted kid?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, your time line says with an asterisk next
11:39:33AM 10 to it that in November 1995 -- would be two months or
11 so after this tutoring started -- L J tells you
12 of inappropriate spanking of his son by Pastor Tom.
13 Now, Ms. Eazer had you explain that the
14 asterisk to this date relates to a note at the end
11:39:54AM 15 which says approximate date. How approximate is it?
16 Months off? Days off?
17 A. I would think no more than months.
18 Q. She was trying to get you to say it might have
19 been as far off as maybe this conversation with L
11:40:11AM 20 about spanking of his son happened after Christmas into
21 1996; is that right?
22 A. Could very well.
23 Q. You're trying to reconstruct this in 2000 with
24 Shorty what you remember?
11:40:25AM 25 A. Correct.

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1 Q. You didn't cross-check this with L ?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. So it might have been then? It might have
4 been later?
11:40:33AM 5 A. Correct.
6 Q. November was your best guess?
7 A. At the time. Yes.
8 Q. And this note says that elders meet with Tom.
9 That would have been you and L ?
11:40:47AM 10 A. Correct.
11 Q. We're back in November 1995. Shorty is not an
12 elder yet?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Not until 1999?
11:40:56AM 15 A. I have April 11.
16 Q. So we'll talk about that in a minute. Tom
17 denies, quote, bare-bottom spanking. It's your
18 testimony here today that your recollection is that
19 sometime in the latter part of 1995 or possibly the
11:41:15AM 20 early part of 1996, L J was telling Tom in your
21 presence that his son reported being spanked bare
22 bottom?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you talk to M J about this at the
11:41:35AM 25 time?

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1 A. I don't recall a specific instance where I
2 talked to him one on one. But we were together as
3 family. And I'm sure the topic would have come up.
4 Q. Have you talked to M recently about
11:41:53AM 5 anything?
6 A. Recently, no.
7 Q. Recently being since 2015?
8 A. I think the last time I saw M was at his
9 brother's wedding. Might have been one time after
11:42:07AM 10 that.
11 Q. Did the subject of him being bare-bottom
12 spanked by Tom Chantry come up?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you think this meeting with M at his
11:42:17AM 15 brother's wedding was after M J began to allege
16 he'd been sexually molested by Tom?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Was the wedding in town?
19 A. Mesa.
11:42:30AM 20 Q. And you went down?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. J s were old friends; right?
23 A. They are.
24 Q. And so Tom, according to this note here --
11:42:42AM 25 this is a note he made five years or so after the

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1 event. You say that Tom denied bare-bottom spanking.
2 Can we infer from that that Tom admitted spanking M
3 somehow? Right?
4 A. Yes.
11:42:56AM 5 Q. Was there a further allegation by L that
6 M was reporting that he was violently or excessively
7 spanked by Tom?
8 A. A further allegation meaning after this
9 meeting?
11:43:13AM 10 Q. No. In addition to whatever it was, bare
11 bottom. Was M also saying, in your understanding,
12 that he had been beaten by Thomas opposed to just being
13 spanked?
14 A. I just don't recall that language at that
11:43:32AM 15 time.
16 Q. Did you understand from your conversations
17 with L , either before you went to talk to Tom or
18 during the time that the two of you talked to Tom about
19 this, that L was utterly surprised that Tom was
11:43:49AM 20 spanking M at all?
21 A. Well, no. Because Tom had -- L had
22 acknowledged that part of the process was if you get
23 the answer wrong or whatever, there was going to be a
24 swat.
11:44:06AM 25 Q. Is that another way of saying your

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1 understanding was that L had given permission to
2 Tom to spank M ?
3 A. I would have believed so.
4 Q. And in part that's because L wasn't
11:44:19AM 5 confronting Tom about how dare you even touch my child?
6 A. Yeah. Again, not privy to all the
7 conversations the two of them would have had. But he
8 was aware of this type of discipline.
9 Q. And you were present, though, it appears from
11:44:37AM 10 these notes, that one face-to-face meeting with Tom
11 where you and L J were there and Tom and this
12 is the subject matter, this bare-bottom spanking
13 allegation?
14 A. Yes.
11:44:48AM 15 Q. And Tom was adamant, clear, unambiguous, that
16 he did not spank M J bare bottom; correct?
17 A. I don't recall him actually admitting it. No.
18 Q. What you say in your note is Tom denies
19 bare-bottom spanking.
11:45:04AM 20 A. That's what I said. Yes.
21 Q. And that's what you remember; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And so it says further in your note that after
24 several meetings L is comfortable to drop the
11:45:18AM 25 matter; is that right?

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1 A. That's what I wrote.
2 Q. Several meetings between L and whom?
3 A. Tom.
4 Q. So you think he had several more meetings.
11:45:26AM 5 Were you present at those?
6 A. I believe so. There might have been a meeting
7 or two that I wasn't.
8 Q. So they talked about this for a while?
9 A. Yes.
11:45:35AM 10 Q. And L said that's fine? I'm going to
11 consider this resolved and move on?
12 A. That may be the word. "Comfortable" should
13 not have been there. He may not have been comfortable.
14 But okay.
11:45:50AM 15 Q. Comfortable is your impression?
16 A. That's what I wrote.
17 Q. Doesn't necessarily sound like something L
18 would say?
19 A. No. Inappropriate use of the word.
11:46:04AM 20 Q. L is more direct?
21 A. I would believe so.
22 Q. And in any of these follow-up meetings after
23 the first one, did Tom change what he was saying and
24 said well, you know, I did spank him bare bottom? That
11:46:19AM 25 never happened, did it?

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1 A. I don't recall.
2 Q. You think if it did happen you would have
3 noted it back in 2000?
4 A. Yes.
11:46:27AM 5 Q. Do you remember any changes in the structure
6 of this tutoring program being made as part of the
7 resolution of whatever this discussion was? Anything
8 done differently?
9 A. I think at times the tutoring would have been
11:46:45AM 10 taking place at the J house instead of the
11 parsonage.
12 Q. So your belief was up to that point Tom was
13 tutoring M alone at the parsonage or in the church,
14 and after this discussion about the spanking the
11:47:02AM 15 agreement was made that after that the tutoring would
16 take place at the J 's home; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did that seem like a reasonable accommodation
19 or reasonable resolution?
11:47:15AM 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And Tom agreed to that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. To your knowledge, Tom started going over to
24 the J 's house to tutor M ?
11:47:24AM 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. And until years later you never heard any
2 further reports of problems from the J s about this
3 tutoring?
4 A. I don't recall any.
11:47:34AM 5 Q. In the early part of 1997 the J s are
6 called away, called out of town, gone from the church
7 never to return except for a little time in 2009;
8 right? They're basically gone from the church?
9 A. Yes.
11:47:49AM 10 Q. And that was disappointing? They were friends
11 and important people in the church? Now they're gone;
12 right?
13 A. It's hard to lose people when you're in a
14 small church.
11:48:00AM 15 Q. That's a big chunk of your membership, family
16 of four is gone, particularly one that is an elder.
17 It's a hole you have to fill.
18 They leave in February of 1997. And it looks
19 like there was a gap a little more than two years
11:48:16AM 20 before you got a replacement elder. Shorty was not
21 called to be an elder until April of 1999. Is that
22 your time line?
23 A. That's what I have down here. Yes.
24 Q. Does that sound right, thinking back? Would
11:48:30AM 25 you have gone two years without filling that slot?

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1 A. Seems like a long time. Seems like it should
2 have been shorter. That date may be incorrect.
3 Q. Shorty is coming today. He'll remember. He
4 apparently signed off on this time line, so he either
11:48:51AM 5 overlooked that or that's an accurate --
6 A. It's possible that it could have been shorter,
7 but this is what I recollected at the time in December
8 of 2000.
9 Q. You had two reports now of concerning details
11:49:08AM 10 about Tom. There is Tom's behavior at the Fourth of
11 July gathering and now this episode sometime a few
12 months later of inappropriate discipline of the son of
13 one of the elders of the church. There is two things
14 of concern that you're aware of about Tom in that short
11:49:30AM 15 time period?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Nonetheless, in February on my birthday Tom
18 Chantry was formally ordained as a senior pastor;
19 right?
11:49:41AM 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the ordination of a pastor is another
22 laying on of hands, a ceremony in front of the whole
23 church?
24 A. Yes.
11:49:51AM 25 Q. It's an important tradition?

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1 A. Very important.
2 Q. And there is a certificate that comes with
3 that?
4 A. Yes.
11:49:57AM 5 Q. The certificate is signed by the elders;
6 right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You're the hands that are laid on; correct?
9 A. Yes. There were others. We invited a number
11:50:06AM 10 of guests.
11 Q. It begins with the elders?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that certificate not only memorializes the
14 date that it happened and who was involved, it has some
11:50:17AM 15 language in it about the elders in the church being
16 satisfied that Tom -- paraphrasing here -- that Tom is
17 an appropriate candidate for ordination and he's
18 demonstrated both in his life and in his teaching that
19 he is a person of sufficient character to be ordained
11:50:39AM 20 as a pastor in the church?
21 That's in that certificate; right?
22 A. Yeah. I haven't seen the certificate in a
23 long time. I'm sure the language --
24 Q. We're going to come back after lunch. I'll
11:50:53AM 25 let you take a look at it. Would that help you

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1 remember?
2 A. Well, of course.
3 Q. We can talk about the specific language I'm
4 talking about.
11:51:02AM 5 Nonetheless, no question in mid February
6 whatever problems there were with Tom, the Fourth of
7 July incident and whatever happened between Tom and
8 M J and M 's dad, L J , those are, in
9 your mind, satisfactorily resolved such that it was
11:51:21AM 10 appropriate to ordain Tom the permanent pastor of the
11 church; correct?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. And so that time period of February 17 and
14 November, that's sort of brackets. That's the
11:51:33AM 15 beginning and the end, from November of '95 to mid
16 February of 1996. That period of months in there is
17 the period of time when these discussions back and
18 forth with you and L and Tom about spanking M
19 took place?
11:51:50AM 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And eventually, just like the episode with
22 L 's son M at the Fourth of July gathering, you
23 were comfortable, your word, "comfortable," with
24 L acceptance of Tom's explanation and the
11:52:07AM 25 solution that was reached to solve that problem; right?

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1 You considered that?
2 A. Considering it was his son, I was yielding to
3 L on that.
4 Q. So then you march through the time line. And
11:52:19AM 5 there is an entry showing that L and his family
6 moved to Mesa leaving Rich Howe and Tom Chantry as an
7 elder. The pastor is technically an elder; right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Tom was the pastor elder and you were the
11:52:35AM 10 elder elder; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And a man named Dave Frazier was ordained as a
13 decon. We've had some discussions about deacons.
14 Deacons sort of like are the people that actually do
11:52:47AM 15 the hands-on work, roof repairs and kitchen detail and
16 things like that. You might be the chief operating
17 officer and there is an I don't know what officer;
18 right?
19 A. They get their hands dirty.
11:53:02AM 20 Q. And Dave Frazier had that job and eventually
21 was replaced by T W ?
22 A. I don't know if T replaced Dave, but
23 T became a deacon.
24 Q. You have more than one deacon?
11:53:16AM 25 A. Two, three.

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1 Q. As many as you can draft?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And --
4 A. And others who would behave like deacons.
11:53:26AM 5 Q. You have this entry for April 4, 1997. You
6 say you began a series of meetings with Tom, topics
7 ranging from social behaviors, philosophy, what a
8 pastor should be and expectations that each of us had
9 for each other. That's a milestone in this time line?
11:53:43AM 10 A. I'm sorry. The date?
11 Q. April 4, 1997.
12 A. Thank you.
13 Q. Do you see the entry?
14 A. I do.
11:53:51AM 15 Q. And so this was your idea mostly -- right? --
16 that you thought Tom would benefit from some one-on-one
17 time with you about expectations and job performance,
18 where we go from here. Is that a fair assessment?
19 A. Yes.
11:54:08AM 20 Q. You had conversations, I think, with Bob Selph
21 about doing this as a way to help Tom improve his
22 behavior and become better at what he does?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that was to everyone's benefit -- Tom's
11:54:23AM 25 benefit, the church's benefit -- if Tom could just do

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1 better?
2 A. Help to grow a young man.
3 Q. Now, there must have been something that Tom
4 was doing or not doing in that time period. He'd been
11:54:35AM 5 ordained in February and in April. You're having these
6 sessions with him. There must have been something that
7 caused you concern that made you think Tom is not going
8 to be able to do these things on his own without my
9 help and guidance; right?
11:54:49AM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Would it be fair to say that the kinds of
12 things that were in your mind when you started these
13 counseling sessions were not inappropriate discipline
14 of children in the church? Right?
11:55:03AM 15 A. I can't say that it didn't come up in these
16 discussions.
17 Q. Not new allegations?
18 A. No.
19 Q. It was Tom's attitude in large part that you
11:55:21AM 20 were concerned about; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How would you describe his attitude?
23 A. At times Tom, very self-assured young man,
24 could be prideful at times and not always be subject to
11:55:35AM 25 change. And so we were just working through issues of

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1 where we could disagree, where we could agree, where we
2 could grow, where we could expand the ministry, where
3 we could see him grow into the ministry's person that
4 we thought he could be.
11:55:55AM 5 Q. How did Tom respond to the idea of this
6 counseling and the actual counseling itself, if you
7 remember?
8 A. Well, I don't recall initially there was any
9 objection to it. I'm sure that he may not have always
11:56:15AM 10 agreed with things that we discussed.
11 Q. When you say that someone pushes back against
12 something, do you understand what I'm talking about?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Did Tom push back against your suggestions and
11:56:25AM 15 your taking his role?
16 A. I don't recall a specific incident of push
17 back.
18 Q. Did Tom refuse at some point to continue doing
19 this, stop talking to you?
11:56:41AM 20 A. Well, I mean, it ended in '97. I can't
21 remember if it was his decision or mine or we just
22 felt --
23 Q. Did it start in '97?
24 A. April 4.
11:56:59AM 25 Q. So you had some note or calendar in 2000 when

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1 you pulled that date out; right? You wouldn't have
2 just remembered that date?
3 A. I must have had it in my calendar book when we
4 had a meeting.
11:57:12AM 5 Q. How long did that go on?
6 A. Two or three months.
7 MR. SEARS: This would be a good time for me,
8 Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Thank you.
11:57:30AM 10 Ladies and gentlemen, enjoy your lunch.
11 Remember the admonition. Be back at 1:30.
12 (Recess.)
13 (Proceedings continued outside the
14 presence of jury.)
01:30:02PM 15 THE COURT: Go ahead.
16 MR. SEARS: Just when we thought things with
17 C L and D L couldn't get more
18 convoluted, I went back and looked at my materials and
19 looked again at a letter written on December 3, 2000,
01:30:18PM 20 by C S L , D 's mother, to the church
21 council, one of a series of letters.
22 And in particular towards the end of this
23 letter she gave a detailed description that runs for
24 two full paragraphs about the meeting that we've been
01:30:41PM 25 talking about at her home where Tom and Shorty Owens,

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1 because Rich is in Israel, come over to meet with
2 C S , her son D , and J L talking
3 about this.
4 What I noted in it is as thorough a
01:30:56PM 5 description -- there is not a single reference to
6 confronting Tom about bare-bottom spanking. And so
7 that meeting calls into some question -- I'm not saying
8 it was deliberate, but some question about the complete
9 accuracy of the state's proffer about what C S
01:31:13PM 10 said.
11 This is a contemporaneous account of this
12 meeting. It's written December 3 and happened on
13 October 20 the same year. So I'm not sure the best way
14 to handle it. I wanted to renew my objection to the
01:31:29PM 15 entirety of the Court's ruling on this. Because now we
16 have strong indication that unless she's led into
17 expanding on this that her contemporaneous statement is
18 at odds with what the state's anticipated testimony is.
19 THE COURT: Where did that information come
01:31:45PM 20 from? Is that from a police report? I'm talking about
21 the information that Ms. Eazer talked about before.
22 You indicated you were aware of it. Did that come
23 through a police report? Is that through a pretrial
24 interview? Help me understand.
01:31:58PM 25 MR. SEARS: This is part of the infamous red

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1 binder.
2 THE COURT: Putting that binder aside, the
3 information where the confrontation did include the
4 bare-bottom spanking, where did that come from?
01:32:11PM 5 MR. SEARS: The states's proffer.
6 THE COURT: That's it?
7 MR. SEARS: I think that's accurate. I have
8 notes from my witness interview with C S that
9 don't talk about that at all. That wasn't a focus of
01:32:25PM 10 my interview with her. So I don't have any independent
11 recollection of that topic coming up.
12 To be clear, in context this letter -- the
13 rest of this letter -- the beginning of this letter is
14 all bare-bottom spanking all the time, talking about
01:32:39PM 15 it, hearing about it from D and her getting direct
16 information from her son and then --
17 THE COURT: In the letter she talks about
18 having knowledge of it but then when she talks about
19 the confrontation, it's not mentioned in that portion
01:32:54PM 20 of it?
21 MR. SEARS: That's correct.
22 And so I take it at face value that she was
23 trying -- this is a very well written
24 two-and-a-half-page letter in considerable detail from
01:33:07PM 25 the time she first learned of this bare-bottom spanking

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1 allegation, all the things she did, all the people she
2 talked to, all of the back and forth and then ends.
3 The next to last thing she did was this
4 meeting on the 24th, more talking about Shorty and the
01:33:25PM 5 rest of this stuff. There doesn't appear to me to be
6 any reference by D L 's mother to having
7 specifically confronted my client with this bare-bottom
8 spanking and getting back that -- what apparently
9 concerns the state, the partial admission, partial
01:33:44PM 10 denial answer from him.
11 THE COURT: Let me ask Ms. Eazer where she got
12 that information from.
13 Was it through interview or other information
14 from Ms. L ? Do you disagree with Mr. Sears about
01:33:57PM 15 the content of the letter?
16 MS. EAZER: The letter doesn't talk about what
17 was confronted. If you read the whole letter, it's
18 very clear what the topic is. And throughout the
19 shocking thing is that he was spanking D L
01:34:11PM 20 bare bottom. And that's what they were talking about
21 that night, I believe.
22 And I just literally when I walked back in,
23 the Court learned of this. I believe that in Eric
24 Owens's interview he specifically talked about the
01:34:28PM 25 meeting at the L home that the defendant denied

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1 bare-bottom spanking.
2 He's there with C . And, again, you just
3 would have to read in context. It's not like she's
4 saying this is what we said to him. But he was
01:34:42PM 5 confronted with inappropriate spanking. The spanking
6 over the clothes was not inappropriate. What she's
7 talks about on the first page of the letter is she was
8 shocked he was bare-bottom spanking.
9 THE COURT: Nevertheless, you understand
01:34:55PM 10 that -- you expect that Ms. L when she testifies
11 about the confrontation, that including a confrontation
12 about bare-bottom spanking and her son?
13 MS. EAZER: Yes.
14 THE COURT: All right.
01:35:08PM 15 MS. EAZER: I think it's even in Mr. Owens's
16 police report. I haven't gotten to look it up. But I
17 think that information is in Eric Owens's that the
18 family confronted him in this meeting about that type
19 of spanking and that he denied.
01:35:22PM 20 THE COURT: The information that he just
21 indicated certainly may be good information for
22 impeachment or cross, but I'm still -- my prior ruling
23 still stands.
24 MR. SEARS: One additional thing that now
01:35:49PM 25 comes up.

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1 THE COURT: Go ahead.
2 MR. SEARS: I'm going to be impeaching her
3 with this letter. Much of this letter if not most of
4 this letter is, I think, clearly inadmissible on any
01:35:59PM 5 theory beginning with the fact that it talks about the
6 impermissible hearsay evidence with D L .
7 THE COURT: Let me interrupt you there. I
8 think we talked about this before. You can refresh my
9 recollection about having a discussion if you wanted me
01:36:13PM 10 to with Ms. L outside the presence of the jury, an
11 admonition about things not to talk about.
12 If you want me to do that given what you're
13 telling me and you're concerned about it, I'm happy to
14 do that.
01:36:26PM 15 MR. SEARS: I do. What I was envisioning and
16 now what I would really hope we can do is talk with her
17 specifically about this letter, let her look at it if
18 she needs to refresh her recollection and say as we
19 look at the last paragraphs of the letter describing
01:36:44PM 20 this meeting on October 20, 2000, there doesn't appear
21 to be any mention of bare-bottom spanking.
22 Are you intending to testify here today if
23 asked that whatever this letter says, nevertheless you
24 have a recollection you talked about bare-bottom
01:37:00PM 25 spanking.

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1 This has been my complaint. I may not have
2 been voicing it in the clearest possible way. The more
3 we do this, the more we go down this road of this
4 conversation, to me the more striking the confrontation
01:37:15PM 5 cause problem becomes because now we're going to have
6 to argue with Ms. L perhaps in front of the jury
7 about what it was saying.
8 We're talking bare-bottom spanking all the
9 time, and I'm saying you didn't say anything about it.
01:37:28PM 10 Yes, I did. No, you didn't. Yes, I did. Drawing
11 attention to what I think is a collateral matter and
12 beyond the scope of the Court's ruling and what we
13 thought we were going to be dealing with back in
14 November of last year and March of this year.
01:37:46PM 15 And so that's my dilemma. And so I'm
16 impeaching with a letter that's never going to see, I
17 think, the light of day because of the inadmissible
18 contents. We'd have to take a whole bottle of white
19 out to it to get to the last relevant paragraphs.
01:38:04PM 20 It just continues to be concerning. The more
21 I look at it, the more it just seems to bubble up no
22 matter how much. No matter how much we try to
23 circumscribe it and say this is what we're going to
24 talk about, there just seem to be all these places
01:38:04PM 25 where it just gets problematic.

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1 From my perspective, to my ears, that's the
2 problem. Because now we're talking over and over
3 again, arguing about what was said. If it was just
4 going to be surgical come in and say I said this and
01:38:26PM 5 here's what he said, sort of what you're talking about,
6 sanitizing it, that would be one thing. I'm not
7 thrilled with that, but I could certainly live with
8 that.
9 But now we're not even going to have an
01:38:37PM 10 agreement, I would wager, about whether this came up at
11 all. And I'm going to be arguing it didn't because
12 your contemporaneous recollection and now 18 years
13 later, you're remembering it somehow differently and
14 all the things that go into that cross-examination,
01:38:53PM 15 meanwhile saying bare bottom, bare bottom, bare bottom
16 over and over in front of the jury about an uncharged,
17 not alleged victim. I just continue to be concerned.
18 THE COURT: I appreciate that. I have no
19 problem admonishing her outside the presence of the
01:39:14PM 20 jury. We're not going to do an examination of her. My
21 rule still stands.
22 Sir, if you don't mind coming back up here and
23 taking the stand.
24 MS. EAZER: Just so the Court knows, I
01:39:44PM 25 informed Mr. Sears that after this witness I'm going to

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1 call Clemmons a bit out of order because he's very
2 brief. I did notify defense counsel.
3 (Proceedings continued in the presence
4 of jury.)
01:40:34PM 5 THE COURT: Whenever you're ready.
6 MR. SEARS: Just a moment, Your Honor.
7 Q. BY MR. SEARS: Good afternoon, Mr. Howe.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. During the lunch break I as promised tracked
01:42:00PM 10 down Tom's ordination certificate. I wanted to ask you
11 about just a portion of a phrase in there. This is --
12 the ordination certificate is from we, the elders, of
13 the Miller Valley Baptist Church, signed by you and
14 L J . Does that seem the way it would have
01:42:20PM 15 gone?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And it talks about having recognized the
18 qualifications for church office both a consistency of
19 life and testimony and the gifts of the ministry do
01:42:30PM 20 hereby ordain Thomas Jonathan Chantry. It's that
21 "consistency life and testimony" part that I was
22 struggling to remember. That's language that's very
23 familiar to you right; right?
24 A. Yes.
01:42:40PM 25 Q. Can you tell the folks on the jury what your

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1 interpretation of consistency of life and testimony
2 means in the context of ordaining a pastor in the
3 Reformed Baptist Church.
4 A. We're looking in consistency of faith in God,
01:43:01PM 5 consistency in his ability to study and to preach and
6 teach, which he was very gifted at.
7 He was a young man, as you mentioned at the
8 beginning of my testimony this morning. With being
9 young there was some areas that still obviously needed
01:43:16PM 10 to be growing and changing and building up. And that
11 was the life of the body at that time with myself and
12 L saying he's worthy of this calling. So there is
13 work to be done obviously as there is work to be done
14 with all of us.
01:43:38PM 15 Q. It was your public statement to the members of
16 your church that as an elder along with L you
17 thought he was ready for and up to and entitled to be
18 ordained that day?
19 A. Yes.
01:43:50PM 20 Q. Thank you.
21 Now, moving ahead. We were talking
22 February 17, 1997. Let's jump to the fall of the year
23 2000, the last few months that Thomas was at Miller
24 Valley Baptist Church. You told us that during one
01:44:10PM 25 period you had a long scheduled trip to Israel that you

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1 took for 10 days or so that took you out of the
2 country; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And this was right at a time of concern
01:44:24PM 5 because it was, as you said, the time these allegations
6 that you got about Tom and D L , the young
7 child of one of your church members, was surfacing and
8 you had to hand off part of that responsibility to
9 Shorty Owens; is that right?
01:44:41PM 10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. Shorty was the other elder of the church?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. A two-year vacancy had been filled?
14 A. Yes.
01:44:49PM 15 Q. So the sequence of events is fairly complex
16 and dense with dates. Let's see if we can put them in
17 an easy-to-understand order. Sometime according --
18 Do you have the time line?
19 A. No.
01:45:03PM 20 Q. Would you like it back?
21 A. Sure.
22 THE COURT: It's 79, I believe.
23 MR. SEARS: May I approach the witness,
24 Your Honor?
01:45:18PM 25 THE COURT: Absolutely.

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1 Q. BY MR. SEARS: Let's now look at the second
2 page of your time line. It starts with the June 20,
3 1999, ordination of another deacon?
4 A. Yes.
01:45:37PM 5 Q. And then starting on October 17 there is just
6 a flurry of activity. October 17, 2000, all the way
7 through and onto the third page. It ends on
8 December 6. That period of time from mid October to
9 early December, many things were happening at Miller
01:45:57PM 10 Valley Baptist Church?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And they all involved Tom?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You were right in the middle of all of them;
01:46:02PM 15 right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The first thing that happens on October 17,
18 you get a story from someone that Tom has been
19 inappropriately spanking D L ; right?
01:46:13PM 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you said earlier you thought that call
22 came from D 's mother, C S ; right?
23 A. I thought it did. But if it came from
24 H , it came from H .
01:46:22PM 25 Q. Do you have a recollection now that it came

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1 from H ?
2 A. It's still not vibrant in my memory, but I can
3 certainly believe that it did.
4 Q. We had a little L genealogy chart
01:46:32PM 5 yesterday. The part that connects up to this is that
6 C S L is H E 's aunt.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, you get this information, and it's
9 disturbing, and it's more an indication that whatever
01:46:52PM 10 Tom was doing back in 1995 and '96 with M J ,
11 something like that has happened with D L .
12 And now you're concerned all over again; right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And your response is to leave the country for
01:47:07PM 15 10 days; right? Timing is everything?
16 A. Timing is everything.
17 Q. That's what happened; right? Before you leave
18 the country you get this information, and you meet with
19 Shorty in the evening and then go see Tom after the
01:47:28PM 20 evening prayer meeting on the 18th of October, the very
21 next day; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So you tell Tom -- you and Shorty tell Tom we
24 got this information from H . And what do you
01:47:40PM 25 say? Is that kind of a short version of what that

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1 meeting was?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That was at the church?
4 A. Yes.
01:47:46PM 5 Q. And did Tom deny the allegations of
6 bare-bottom spanking?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And was adamant. Did he tell you that he did
9 in fact spank D L ?
01:48:00PM 10 A. As I recall, yes.
11 Q. And certainly denied any suggestion that that
12 spanking was excessive or brutal or beating or anything
13 like that; right? Tom said yeah, I did that but that's
14 all I did; right? That was Tom's position; correct?
01:48:18PM 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, you have another meeting the next day,
17 the 19th of October; right? You and Shorty with Tom
18 again; right?
19 A. Yes.
01:48:27PM 20 Q. And the same topic comes up and Tom says
21 exactly the same thing; right? Is that right? You
22 have to say -- she can't see you nodding your head.
23 Sorry.
24 A. Yes.
01:48:38PM 25 Q. And did you have any additional information

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1 about the details of this supposed conduct with D
2 L that you passed on to Tom at that second
3 meeting?
4 A. I don't recall any additional information
01:48:49PM 5 other than the fact that I wanted to make sure that
6 Shorty was comfortable with me leaving prior to
7 engaging further in this matter while I was gone.
8 Q. And then the next day off you go to Israel?
9 A. Yes, sir.
01:49:02PM 10 Q. During your absence Shorty and Tom begin the
11 process of family visitations. Tell us about that.
12 What was that?
13 A. It was really only one visitation I'm ware of.
14 This is probably one area that I didn't get clarified
01:49:20PM 15 from Shorty when this final -- or he didn't catch it
16 when we read it. I believe he only went to C 's.
17 Q. While you were gone during this vacation,
18 Shorty and Tom go to see C S L and D
19 at C S L 's home?
01:49:40PM 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You weren't there. Somebody else told you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Then there was also scheduled on the calendar
24 Tom's last Sunday at Miller Valley preaching because he
01:49:54PM 25 was supposed to go on a prescheduled vacation?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then the next day Tom cancels that
3 vacation?
4 A. Yes.
01:50:04PM 5 Q. You don't know exactly why because you weren't
6 there; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then you come back on the 1st of November
9 hoping that all this has been resolved while you were
01:50:15PM 10 gone; right?
11 A. I didn't expect all of it to be resolved. I
12 expected some things to have happened.
13 Q. And you weren't surprised it wasn't over?
14 A. No.
01:50:26PM 15 Q. You came back and had a meeting with Shorty to
16 get an update on what happened while you were gone
17 correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. On the November 1, 2000, entry, family
01:50:38PM 20 visitation continues through the 4th of November. So
21 now after having gone to C S L and
22 apologized to her, there is another round of visits and
23 apologies scheduled?
24 A. I only recall going with Tom up to Chino
01:50:57PM 25 Valley to visit one or two of the Owens family just,

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1 again, to give him an opportunity to explain what's
2 going on and to apologize, not necessarily to a family
3 that was directly involved but just to apologize to the
4 church.
01:51:12PM 5 Q. When you say the Owens family, Shorty had a
6 bunch of brothers; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And they all lived the Prescott and Chino
9 Valley area?
01:51:22PM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Tom went to see with you at your direction
12 Shorty's family and some of the other Owens siblings,
13 his brother's families, to apologize to them even
14 though at that point none of them had made any
01:51:35PM 15 allegation Tom had done anything to their children?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. They were important to the church and they're
18 going to get apologized to; right?
19 A. Yes.
01:51:43PM 20 Q. Now, then on the 6th elders meet with deacons
21 at 5:15 to discuss summary of pastoral visitation and
22 to present a plan of action. The pastoral visitations
23 is this string of apology visits; right? That's what a
24 pastoral visitation is?
01:52:01PM 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. And so you tell the deacons about that they're
2 part of the church administration; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When they're not fixing the roof or tending
01:52:11PM 5 the plumbing, they're somebody that's going to be
6 brought into these discussions with you and Shorty?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And a plan of action was presented. Then
9 shortly after that you and Shorty meet with Tom and
01:52:24PM 10 present this plan to address the church body on
11 Wednesday the 8th -- right? -- which is a normal church
12 night? The prayer meeting is on Wednesdays; right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Going to be a special church meeting on the
01:52:37PM 15 8th with this plan of action; right? That was one of
16 the main purposes of this meeting on the 8th?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The plan of action was one that you and Shorty
19 in consultation when the deacons came up that would put
01:52:52PM 20 Tom back in the pulpit preaching the following Sunday
21 and then would have a churchwide day of fasting and
22 repentance and a meeting about 30 days later, at which
23 point the church would be asked to vote as a group on
24 whether Tom should stay or go; right? That's generally
01:53:11PM 25 the plan?

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1 A. Yeah. That might not have been exactly the
2 way it was planned out, but it was talked about a
3 30-day respite period where he would not be preaching.
4 The church would have an opportunity to hear more from
01:53:25PM 5 him and have an opportunity for him to be able to meet
6 more and confess and admit.
7 And obviously that never happened.
8 Q. I misunderstood. I thought the plan was for
9 Tom, who had not been preaching for some period of time
01:53:39PM 10 now, to go back in the Sunday following the 8th.
11 A. My recollection is not that.
12 Q. Just the opposite?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Had in fact Tom been removed from preaching by
01:53:53PM 15 agreement with you and Tom for some period of time
16 before November 6?
17 A. I don't remember the exact date. But yes.
18 Q. And, in fact, it was a bit more than that.
19 Not only was he not preaching, he was told he needed to
01:54:04PM 20 stay completely away from church on Wednesdays and
21 Sundays. Do you remember that? Just not be there?
22 A. No. I don't remember that.
23 Q. Is it possible it happened and you simply
24 don't remember?
01:54:14PM 25 A. It's possible. But I don't remember that.

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1 No.
2 Q. Can you give us an idea how long before
3 November 6 it had been Tom had stopped preaching? Was
4 it a couple weeks? couple of months?
01:54:28PM 5 A. No. It would have been a week at the most.
6 Q. So your recollection of this plan of action
7 was that Tom would stop preaching? Everything would
8 come to a halt? The church would think about Tom for a
9 month and reassemble in December and decide whether Tom
01:54:47PM 10 was going to stay or go; correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. What was Tom supposed to do in that month?
13 Continue this pastoral visitation program?
14 A. That was the intent. Meeting with families
01:54:59PM 15 and --
16 Q. Eventually the idea was that Tom would
17 apologize in person to every single family in the
18 church; right?
19 A. Yes.
01:55:08PM 20 Q. And you had been in consultation with H
21 E about all of this during this period of time
22 because she's the one that reported the D L
23 situation?
24 A. Yes.
01:55:23PM 25 Q. And H said she was really concerned

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1 about Tom being around the church, and she was not
2 comfortable being there if Tom was going to be the
3 pastor; right?
4 A. I don't recall her saying that to me.
01:55:37PM 5 Q. Well, let's break it into pieces. H
6 talked to you about her feelings about Tom during this
7 time period in November of 2000?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And she told you that she was uncomfortable
01:55:50PM 10 with Tom; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And whether she said I'm not coming back if
13 he's there or it was agreed that she wouldn't come back
14 if Tom was there, she made it known to you that as far
01:56:05PM 15 as she was concerned, Tom should no longer be the
16 pastor of the church; right? That was her position?
17 A. Yes. To the best of my knowledge remembering,
18 that was her position.
19 Q. As far as H was concerned, Tom's
01:56:19PM 20 continued presence in the church was a deal breaker for
21 her. She'd leave the church if Tom was allowed back.
22 A fair statement?
23 A. Again, she didn't say that to me, that it was
24 a deal breaker.
01:56:33PM 25 Q. Perhaps not in that language. Did she make it

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1 clear that she would consider leaving the church
2 altogether if Tom was allowed for any reason to come
3 back?
4 A. It's quite possible that she said that.
01:56:44PM 5 Q. That was concerning to you; right?
6 A. Anytime someone leaves, it's concerning.
7 Q. And you told Tom that you thought it would be
8 a real problem for Miller Valley Church if H
9 E and her family, which could include the whole
01:56:59PM 10 extended L clan possibly, left the church,
11 essentially, in protest over Tom's continued presence?
12 You told Tom about that, didn't you?
13 A. About the whole L clan wanting to
14 leave --
01:57:16PM 15 Q. If they did. But that it was a concern? It
16 wasn't just H and her husband?
17 A. I do not recall making that an issue in my
18 conversation with Tom. We were trying to deal with the
19 issue at hand, the disciplinary issues.
01:57:30PM 20 Q. Did you tell Tom you were concerned just that
21 H L and her family might leave the church?
22 A. I don't recall saying that to Tom.
23 Q. Are you saying you didn't say it or you just
24 don't recall?
01:57:45PM 25 A. I don't recall.

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1 MS. EAZER: Objection. Asked and answered.
2 THE COURT: Overruled.
3 Q. BY MR. SEARS: Could we have the answer again,
4 sir.
01:57:54PM 5 A. I don't recall saying that was an issue.
6 Q. You're not saying that didn't happen? You
7 just can't remember whether you said it or not?
8 A. The exact language, no. She was obviously --
9 we were all discouraged by that time. It was very --
01:58:10PM 10 Q. Moving back, we're now, looking at the middle
11 of page 2 of the time line you have in front of you, on
12 November 6, 2000. You have this meeting with Tom, and
13 you present a plan to address the church body Wednesday
14 the 8th to let them know that Tom will return to the
01:58:29PM 15 pulpit on Sunday the 12th.
16 Does that change your recollection about what
17 the plan for Tom might have been?
18 A. I'm seeing it could have been the plan.
19 Q. Right. And this document that you're looking
01:58:52PM 20 at here was written a few days later, in the middle of
21 December 2000, not long after this all the sequence of
22 events in early November; right?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. Your memory clearly would have been better
01:59:05PM 25 focused on what happened 18 years later; right?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The plan actually was what I said it was,
3 which was that Tom would be reinstated to the pulpit on
4 November 12, the following Sunday, which would imply
01:59:20PM 5 that Tom had been out of the pulpit for some period?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. We know that? You said that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that there would be a -- doesn't say here,
01:59:30PM 10 but the plan was there would be this day of churchwide
11 fasting and prayer in anticipation of a meeting that
12 night to take a vote on whether Tom stays or goes;
13 right? That's the rest of the plan of action; right?
14 A. Where is that in here?
01:59:47PM 15 Q. Well, I can find you some other places. It's
16 not in the time line.
17 A. I thought I was missing something.
18 Q. There were minutes that you prepared of the
19 November 8th meeting that talk about that?
01:59:55PM 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Does that ring a bell?
22 A. Yes, it does.
23 Q. Now, so what happens instead is -- and you
24 told Tom about this on the 6th. You said here's what
02:00:06PM 25 we're going to do. You're going to go back in the

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1 pulpit come Sunday, and we'll see where things stand in
2 a month, and we'll know what's going to happen; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And Tom would continue the pastoral visitation
02:00:20PM 5 tour trying to touch base with everybody in the church?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that would help inform these people so
8 when they get back in December to vote up or down on
9 Tom, they will have a benefit of a one on one or a
02:00:35PM 10 family on one with Tom, each one in their home?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And you and Shorty were going to facilitate
13 this?
14 A. Yes, we were.
02:00:41PM 15 Q. Shorty wasn't going out of town, was he? He
16 wasn't smart enough to plan a vacation; right?
17 A. Not to my knowledge.
18 Q. Then on the 8th, just two days later, you and
19 Shorty meet with Tom at noon. And instead of taking
02:00:57PM 20 steps towards this meeting, Tom hands you a letter of
21 resignation; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you weren't expecting that, were you?
24 A. I would have to say it probably wasn't a
02:01:11PM 25 surprise. But no. We were not expecting it at that

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1 moment.
2 Q. So he gives a resignation and tells you that
3 he's been talking to people that counsel with him, and
4 most of them are saying you just need to move. This is
02:01:25PM 5 not sustainable. This is not working. You just need
6 to go. That's what he told you; right? That was the
7 advice he was hearing?
8 A. Yeah. I don't recall who gave him that
9 advice. Says here that it was a pastor down in
02:01:39PM 10 Gilbert. It was advice, counsel, he was given from
11 other pastors and possibly family.
12 Q. Actually, the pastor in Gilbert is where he
13 went that night? Pastor John?
14 A. Yes.
02:01:56PM 15 Q. So then the church meeting went ahead at 6:30
16 without Tom; right?
17 A. We did have a meeting. Yes.
18 Q. And the meeting went from the planned
19 announcement of this plan where Tom would come back in
02:02:12PM 20 the pulpit and preach and have a meeting in a month to
21 see where things stand to well, here's the breaking
22 news. Tom's just resigned. Right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And then the next day there is another meeting
02:02:28PM 25 that you and Shorty had with Tom at noon to tell him

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1 what happened to see if he's changed his mind or
2 changed his heart and is going to stay; right? That
3 happens the very next day, the ninth; right?
4 A. Yes.
02:02:41PM 5 Q. And then Tom leaves the next day, and he's
6 gone and never returns?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And then there are a number of things that
9 happen. Communications with his father, then you and
02:02:54PM 10 Shorty go over to Escondido, California, to meet with
11 some other long-standing pastors -- Don Linblatt, Earl
12 Blackburn, Steve Martin and Bob Selph; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was that a planned meeting or was that put
02:03:11PM 15 together in light of Tom's resignation?
16 A. No. It was a conference being held over
17 there. And in light of all of the things that were
18 happening at Miller Valley, we asked if we could meet
19 with these men during that conference.
02:03:24PM 20 Q. And you and Shorty went over and did that?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And then sometime in that -- that was on the
23 14th of November. Now we're into the week following
24 the Sunday where Tom was otherwise expected to start
02:03:39PM 25 preaching. And now you're talking about what are we

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1 going to do with this new situation; right?
2 The conversation shifts from a plan of action
3 to keep Tom at the church to what are we going to do
4 now? He's gone?
02:03:54PM 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So on the 19th of November, now we're a week,
7 another Sunday, after evening service that you told us
8 about. You and Shorty tell the church that, you know,
9 we think we'll have a church council come in and help
02:04:12PM 10 us with this problem; right?
11 A. Well, it was -- church council idea came from
12 the association that came to us and said would you
13 think this would be something good to the church? We
14 presented it to the church, and they said yes.
02:04:26PM 15 Q. Now, what happened, though, is when you got
16 over to Escondido and talked to Bob Selph, who was
17 still a coordinator at ARBCA, the Association of
18 Reformed Baptists Churches of America -- that's ARBCA;
19 right?
02:04:43PM 20 A. Correct.
21 Q. That's this big national association of
22 Reformed Baptist Churches?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Of which Miller Valley was a member in 2000?
02:04:54PM 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Individual people don't join ARBCA? Churches
2 join ARBCA; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, just digressing a little bit, ARBCA is a
02:05:00PM 5 voluntary association of churches?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You could be a Reformed Baptist Church, put a
8 sign out front and do everything Reformed Baptist
9 Churches do without being a member of ARBCA; right?
02:05:15PM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. It's not a governing body like state bar or
12 state medical board where if you want to be a doctor or
13 lawyer, you must belong to that association? ARBCA is
14 voluntary?
02:05:29PM 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There are a number of nonARBCA churches
17 calling themselves Reformed Baptist Churches all
18 around; right?
19 A. Yes.
02:05:41PM 20 Q. The suggestions from these people that you met
21 at Escondido were essentially the position of ARBCA.
22 You're an ARBCA church, then ARBCA says no. This is a
23 problem. What if we were to put together a counsel,
24 bring in appropriate people to come to Prescott, try to
02:06:00PM 25 help the church and everybody come to some sort of

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1 reconciliation with what's just happened; right?
2 That's what was planned?
3 A. Yes. But not in Escondido.
4 Q. Was the idea discussed?
02:06:13PM 5 A. I don't know. It was more informational.
6 They needed to hear what was happening in Prescott.
7 Q. Bob Selph was in Escondido?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. It's true, isn't it, that Bob Selph was
02:06:24PM 10 instrumental in putting together the church council?
11 A. He was.
12 Q. And in particular selecting and negotiating
13 with the people that were going to be in this church
14 council and getting them all at the same time and
02:06:37PM 15 place? Bob took that role upon himself?
16 A. Yes, he did.
17 Q. And you were grateful for that?
18 A. Very.
19 Q. He's an old friend and just been good to the
02:06:46PM 20 church for years; right?
21 A. He's the former pastor.
22 Q. And so by the time on the 19th, next Sunday
23 when you come back, this is all moving forth, this all
24 being the planning for this church council. It's going
02:06:59PM 25 to happen in the future. People are going to be

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1 contacted, et cetera.
2 But that was the plan that you and Shorty
3 brought back to tell the people in the church about?
4 A. Correct.
02:07:09PM 5 Q. And they all agreed and that set this all in
6 motion and it was going to happen --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- next church announcement?
9 A. Yes.
02:07:18PM 10 Q. As it related to Tom, Tom's participation in
11 the church council was entirely voluntarily; correct?
12 A. Yes. I would imagine so. I think it was
13 voluntary from every aspect of council, the families
14 that spoke, people that spoke.
02:07:39PM 15 Q. As it effects Tom, Tom didn't have to do this;
16 right? Tom was under no obligation at all on any level
17 except perhaps a moral level or a personal level to do
18 this? The Miller Valley Baptist Church and ARBCA had
19 no direct power to order Tom to do anything; right?
02:07:57PM 20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. And so one of the things that was done in the
22 days and weeks that followed was to set up this church
23 council date, time and place and who was going to be
24 involved; correct?
02:08:09PM 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. So Bob Selph comes up with the names of three
2 people well known in the church; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Pastors and authors of --
02:08:21PM 5 MS. EAZER: Objection, Your Honor. Relevance.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 Q. BY MR. SEARS: The church council is put
8 together and Tom agrees to come back and do it; right?
9 A. Correct.
02:08:29PM 10 Q. The church council takes place in mid
11 December, the 13th through the 16th of December,
12 roughly; right?
13 A. It was during the week. Yes.
14 Q. And you and Shorty participated?
02:08:42PM 15 A. We did. We weren't involved in every aspect.
16 We participated. Yes.
17 Q. And the three church council members came and
18 participated?
19 A. Yes.
02:08:59PM 20 Q. The process generally was all of the families
21 and the children that were involved in these
22 allegations had a time to speak to the council members;
23 is that right?
24 A. Yes.
02:09:08PM 25 Q. The children were talked to individually;

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1 correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were you present for all of the interviews
4 between the three council members and the families and
02:09:17PM 5 the children?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were you allowed to participate in any of
8 them?
9 A. No. They recommended that both Shorty and I
02:09:23PM 10 stay away from those particular aspects of the meeting.
11 Q. And Tom wasn't permitted to participate?
12 A. I don't think so. No.
13 Q. In fact, Tom didn't actually come to Prescott?
14 He was in Arizona but not in Prescott?
02:09:35PM 15 A. Phoenix.
16 Q. Right. Okay. Now, you told us earlier today
17 that this church council came to a conclusion and there
18 were certain recommendations made to various people?
19 That was the outcome; right?
02:09:50PM 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. This church council was never intended by you
22 to be some sort of a trial or fact-finding
23 investigation?
24 A. No.
02:09:58PM 25 Q. It was a healing function; right?

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1 A. That was the intent.
2 Q. In fact, you wrote a very long and detailed
3 letter to Tom's dad explaining what you thought it was
4 about and why you thought the church council was a good
02:10:12PM 5 idea?
6 MS. EAZER: Objection. Relevance.
7 THE COURT: Sustained.
8 Q. BY MR. SEARS: You had a very clear idea in
9 your mind of how this church council could be helpful
02:10:20PM 10 to everybody concerned; correct?
11 A. That was the goal. That was the whole point.
12 Q. You said here earlier, if I understood you,
13 that at the end of the church council your
14 understanding was, at least as far as ARBCA was
02:10:33PM 15 concerned, Tom was banned forever, again, being a
16 pastor? Is that what you said?
17 A. That he was banned forever?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Certainly in the short term there would be --
02:10:50PM 20 be highly recommended that he not counsel in a church.
21 But I believe it was from the council itself that
22 recommended that in their conclusion report.
23 Q. So the idea was not that he was --
24 A. And we accepted that.
02:11:06PM 25 Q. Correct. And when you say "we," you mean the

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1 church?
2 A. Shorty and I signed the document.
3 Q. And so it wasn't that Tom was banned forever?
4 It was just that things had to happen if Tom wanted to
02:11:19PM 5 come back as pastor?
6 A. I don't think the word "forever" was ever
7 used.
8 Q. The idea was he was going to go someplace
9 else, work with another church, do certain things. And
02:11:28PM 10 if they were satisfied that he was in the proper place,
11 he could go back to being a pastor?
12 A. In theory. Yes.
13 Q. And there was no time limit. It wasn't this
14 has to go 2 years or 10 years or 5 years? Just
02:11:44PM 15 whenever the new church that was supervising him said
16 so, if they said it was okay, he could be a pastor
17 again?
18 A. I don't recall any time limit.
19 Q. Right. Am I generally describing your
02:11:58PM 20 understanding of how it was to work with Tom?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, did you ever tell any of the people at
23 Miller Valley, tell H E or C S or
24 T and P W or the J family, that Tom is
02:12:16PM 25 forever banned from being a pastor? Did you say that

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1 to them?
2 A. I don't recall ever saying that.
3 Q. You knew that wasn't true; correct?
4 A. It was not in the document that was signed.
02:12:26PM 5 Q. Would there have been a reason that you would
6 have said something you knew not to be true to these
7 people, tell them he's banned forever, nothing to worry
8 about here?
9 A. I don't know why I would have said that.
02:12:41PM 10 Q. Do you remember having any specific
11 conversations with any of the Miller Valley families
12 after Tom left about what was to become of Tom?
13 A. Of course. There was no answers given because
14 we didn't know. Of course there were conversations.
02:12:56PM 15 Q. It was open ended? He might never be a
16 pastor, but he might be a pastor?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. The allegations that started these rolling,
19 the thing in your mind that set off this chain of
02:13:10PM 20 events from mid October until mid December that
21 included Tom leaving and coming back to the church
22 council and church council doing its work began
23 essentially with the information you got from H
24 E , who said she had gotten information from her
02:13:29PM 25 aunt, C n S , about Tom and D ; right?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And so other allegations from the J
3 family, the W family, all came to your attention
4 after Tom left? He was gone?
02:13:49PM 5 A. So many things were happening so quickly in
6 that time period. I can't recall if it was right
7 before or right after. It was right in that window.
8 Q. Well, put another way, you had no -- the only
9 discussions that you had with Shorty and Tom about
02:14:04PM 10 these allegations focused entirely on D L ?
11 A. At that time, yes.
12 Q. You never had a discussion with Tom and Shorty
13 in Prescott about allegations from the J family or
14 the W family?
02:14:17PM 15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Moving ahead at rapid speed to 2015, you told
17 us a little bit about these issues at ARBCA and Tom
18 trying to bring his new church in Wisconsin into ARBCA
19 in early 2015; right?
02:14:40PM 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And do you remember the Marleys, father and
22 son, going to the church general assembly in Texas in
23 2015?
24 A. Yes.
02:14:50PM 25 Q. And the topic of Tom's church and his

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1 application for ARBCA was front and center at that
2 meeting?
3 A. Yes. I wasn't there. I was given the report.
4 Q. Miller Valley became increasingly concerned,
02:15:04PM 5 as you said, for the reasons that you said about the
6 prospect of Tom coming to ARBCA, coming back into
7 ARBCA, given the church's position, position of various
8 people about Tom; right?
9 A. Yes.
02:15:18PM 10 Q. And those positions were made known to
11 ARBCA -- right? -- those communications about the
12 Marleys and ARBCA about what Miller Valley would or
13 wouldn't do if Tom got in?
14 A. There were conversations I believe at that
02:15:34PM 15 general assembly.
16 Q. In fact, Miller Valley through the Marleys
17 said that if Tom's church in Wisconsin is admitted to
18 ARBCA, Miller Valley will likely withdraw from ARBCA;
19 correct?
02:15:45PM 20 A. And eventually they did.
21 Q. Right about the time Tom got arrested or
22 within a week?
23 A. I don't remember the date. I was no longer at
24 Miller Valley when that happened.
02:15:56PM 25 Q. You said you were a member of Miller Valley up

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1 to about two and a half years ago?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. That would have been until what time period?
4 A. That was January.
02:16:10PM 5 Q. Of?
6 A. 2015. January 15 or January 16. I've been
7 gone two and a half years.
8 Q. January 2015 would have been before the
9 general assembly and the discussion of Tom coming with
02:16:28PM 10 his church --
11 A. January 16.
12 Q. So after that?
13 A. Yes. It was after that.
14 Q. Did you leave Miller Valley over the Tom
02:16:36PM 15 Chantry situation?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you leave for some other independent
18 reason?
19 A. Yes.
02:16:40PM 20 Q. Did it connect in any way to Tom?
21 A. No.
22 MR. SEARS: Thank you.
23 No other questions.
24 THE COURT: Redirect, please.
02:16:56PM 25 Q. BY MS. EAZER: Why did you leave Miller

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1 Valley?
2 MR. SEARS: Relevance.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 Q. BY MS. EAZER: Just to be clear, sir, you
02:17:05PM 5 didn't leave because you disliked this man?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You didn't leave because you disliked Tom
8 Chantry?
9 A. No, ma'am.
02:17:12PM 10 Q. Mr. Sears was asking a bunch of questions
11 about whether or not there may have been conversations
12 where the families may have been told that Tom Chantry
13 wasn't likely going to be a pastor again.
14 Whether or not it was required by the
02:17:28PM 15 paperwork, sir, do you recall there being discussions
16 at least that there was a belief he wouldn't be
17 pastoring again anytime in the near future?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And did you think he would be pastoring again
02:17:43PM 20 based on everything you knew that had happened? Did
21 you personally think you would see this man in the
22 pulpit again in the next year or two?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Five or six years?
02:17:52PM 25 A. No.

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1 Q. All right. Before -- we talked about -- and I
2 don't want to get into a lot about this church
3 investigation. But Mr. Sears was telling you there
4 were a number of recommendations made. And he said,
02:18:06PM 5 well, wasn't it -- you know -- set forth in the
6 document that when the other church thought he was
7 ready then he could become a pastor again.
8 I want to ask you. Were there some other
9 things in that document that talked about things that
02:18:20PM 10 should be done before he became a pastor again?
11 A. Certainly and foremost I think was coming back
12 to Prescott.
13 Q. And?
14 A. Reconciling with the families and the church.
02:18:33PM 15 Q. And that would entail?
16 A. Asking for forgiveness, apologizing, going to
17 the children.
18 Q. Admitting what he had done?
19 A. Admitting what he had done.
02:18:46PM 20 Q. And that was first and foremost in your mind,
21 was it not, sir?
22 A. That needed to happen.
23 Q. Would you agree it was first and foremost in
24 the families' mind as well?
02:18:55PM 25 A. No doubt. Absolutely.

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1 Q. Mr. Sears asked you a lot about when you were
2 asked to do the laying on hands of Tom and talked about
3 the certificate and how the certificate talks about a
4 finding of consistency of life and testimony.
02:19:22PM 5 You said that what that meant was he had to
6 show a faith in God, ability to teach and preach --
7 maybe you didn't say teach and preach. But teach, give
8 sermons?
9 A. Absolutely.
02:19:37PM 10 Q. And you signed that document. Let me ask you.
11 At the time you signed that document, based on the
12 couple of things that had happened with Tom, did you
13 have some concerns?
14 A. If there was a concern, it was with his youth
02:19:51PM 15 and his in experience in life. As I said, he was a
16 very intelligent, gifted man and had great ability to
17 take the word and preach. I always enjoyed my chats
18 with him about church history. He kind of encouraged
19 me to look further and deeper into it. So I learned
02:20:13PM 20 from him.
21 In terms of his youthfulness, we knew there
22 were going to be some flaws. It's pretty apparent in
23 all of our assessments of him there were some flaws
24 that we didn't pick up or should have pursued deeper.
02:20:34PM 25 Q. All right. At the time when you signed that

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1 certificate, though, sir, were you kind of giving him
2 the benefit of the doubt that he was going to grow?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Had you known the things that you later
02:20:48PM 5 learned about the other children, do you think you
6 would have signed that document, sir?
7 MR. SEARS: Speculation. Relevance.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 Q. BY MS. EAZER: Mr. Sears asked you several
02:21:02PM 10 questions before the noon hour about Walt Chantry and
11 how he was an influential leader in ARBCA and so forth.
12 Let me just ask you, sir. Was Walt Chantry
13 very vocal with both yourself and Eric Owens after the
14 allegations came out? Just yes or no?
02:21:24PM 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did he express a great deal of anger towards
17 you and Eric Owens about the allegations and the way
18 you were handling them?
19 A. Yes.
02:21:39PM 20 Q. To your knowledge, did he express similar
21 thoughts with the council when they came down to
22 investigate?
23 A. That I'm not aware of.
24 Q. Mr. Sears asked you a question before the noon
02:21:58PM 25 hour about Tom seeking out -- you know -- to tutor

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1 M , if that wasn't a sign that he was trying to do
2 what you had suggested and gaining the church's
3 acceptance by asking to tutor children from the church,
4 that that was showing he was trying to become accepted
02:22:17PM 5 in the church?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Sir, do you know if that was Tom Chantry's
8 motivation when he sought out these boys to tutor?
9 MR. SEARS: Objection. Argument.
02:22:32PM 10 THE COURT: It's speculation.
11 Q. BY MS. EAZER: Mr. Sears asked you if that's
12 what Tom was doing wen he was asking to tutor these
13 boys, that he was trying to gain acceptance into the
14 church.
02:22:43PM 15 Do you remember him asking that?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. I'm not asking you to speculate. I'm asking
18 do you know if that was the reason Tom offered to
19 tutor, to gain acceptance into the church? Just yes or
02:22:55PM 20 no?
21 A. It was part of it. It wasn't all of it.
22 Q. You don't know why he was asking kids' parents
23 to tutor their children, as you sit here today?
24 A. I wasn't involved in those initial
02:23:14PM 25 conversation about hey, I have a child and I think that

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1 tutoring would help. I was not involved in any of
2 those discussions early on.
3 Q. Were you aware that Tom actually sought out
4 L J and C S L and asked if he
02:23:32PM 5 could tutor their children?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Mr. Sears asked you if you were aware that
8 L J had given Tom permission to spank M .
9 And you, I think, said yes.
02:23:44PM 10 A. Yeah. Obviously L was aware of it. So
11 yes.
12 Q. My question to you is did you ever learn that
13 L J had given this man permission to spank his
14 son bare bottom?
02:23:58PM 15 A. No.
16 Q. Or with objects?
17 A. No.
18 Q. In fact, from your conversations with L
19 and subsequently with Tom Chantry, did the opposite
02:24:08PM 20 become clear, that he had not given such permission for
21 bare-bottom spanking or spanking with paddles and other
22 objects?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. Mr. Sears asked you a similar question about
02:24:23PM 25 whether you were aware that the J s spanked their

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1 children, and you said yes?
2 A. Never was present in their home when it
3 happened. But yes. I believe that they believed in
4 what is called "corporal punishment."
02:24:37PM 5 Q. Any reason to believe L or L J
6 thought it was okay to spank their children with the
7 pants down?
8 A. No.
9 MR. SEARS: Objection. Speculation.
02:24:48PM 10 THE COURT: Sustained. The answer is stricken
11 from the record. The jury is not to consider that for
12 any purpose.
13 MS. EAZER: Now, let me ask you. Were you
14 aware -- Mr. Sears was asking about your awareness of
02:25:02PM 15 the tutoring that was going on. Were you aware, sir,
16 some years later that Tom Chantry was tutoring D
17 L alone and on church grounds?
18 A. I wasn't sure where it was happening, if it
19 was in the parsonage or D 's home. I was aware
02:25:25PM 20 there was tutoring going on.
21 Q. Were you aware that Tom Chantry was tutoring
22 W W and J W alone on church grounds?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did that cause you any concern given what had
02:25:45PM 25 happened before?

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1 A. Sure. There was some initial concern. But,
2 again, the parents of J and W seemed
3 comfortable with it. If they were, I would be as well.
4 Q. No concerns as at all?
02:25:58PM 5 A. Nothing specific.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Sears asked you about your Israel
7 trip?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you -- how long had that trip been planned
02:26:08PM 10 for?
11 A. Quite a while. Our son was studying over
12 there abroad for the semester. It was the semester
13 break and an opportunity for parents to fly back there,
14 visit their kids and tour the country.
02:26:21PM 15 Q. Was that an important trip for you?
16 A. Very important. I made it very clear to
17 Shorty that if you don't feel comfortable, I won't go.
18 He said, absolutely not. You're going.
19 Q. You were ready to cancel?
02:26:39PM 20 A. Absolutely. There was no debate, no
21 discussion after that.
22 Q. Mr. Sears asked you about -- maybe I
23 misunderstood your answer. But to be clear, he asked
24 you about whether you had personally -- whether H
02:26:59PM 25 L or anybody in her family said that if that man

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1 comes back on church grounds, we're leaving.
2 Do you remember any such conversation?
3 A. You know, again, it could have happened. We
4 know H and P well. They're great people.
02:27:16PM 5 We enjoyed being with them.
6 Q. Do you remember that conversation?
7 A. I don't remember any specifics that was that
8 much of a mandate. They were upset. We were all
9 upset.
02:27:28PM 10 Q. Do you remember any such mandate, sir, that if
11 you don't get him off the church grounds, the L
12 family is going to leave Miller Valley?
13 A. I don't. And turns out not all of them did
14 initially.
02:27:45PM 15 Q. Let me ask you. Had that been the mandate and
16 you thought you were going to lose the entire L
17 family, however big -- Mr. Sears referred to them as a
18 clan, the L clan. If you thought you were going
19 to lose the L s, would that have anything to do
02:28:02PM 20 with why you would tell this man he couldn't come back?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Would it have anything to do with anything
23 that happened in the end with respect to Tom Chantry?
24 A. No.
02:28:17PM 25 Q. Finally, Mr. Sears asked you about plans to

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1 have the defendant return to the pulpit whenever that
2 may have been, whatever date in your calendar. Was
3 there an intention that when Tom Chantry came to the
4 pulpit next that he would be doing so to apologize to
02:28:38PM 5 the congregation?
6 A. Yes. And I apologize for forgetting that
7 aspect of the way things developed. Obviously I -- my
8 notes indicate that he was to come back. Yes. It
9 was -- the design of it was restoration of can we put
02:28:55PM 10 this together and say this was wrong, this was awful.
11 Can he admit it, confess it. Can there be some
12 forgiveness.
13 Does that mean the hurts are going to go away?
14 Does that mean he's going to stay in the church? No,
02:29:11PM 15 no. That was the intent, bringing restoration.
16 Q. When you say return to pulpit, he was to come
17 back and apologize and perhaps admit what he had done
18 to the congregation?
19 A. Yeah. Whether that would be in the form of
02:29:25PM 20 being in the pulpit or individually with the families,
21 that was the intent for that time period.
22 Q. Just to be clear, sir, in the rest of that
23 document, which I'm not going to go into and in your
24 notes, there was going to be this period of time?
02:29:40PM 25 A. Yes. Roughly 30 days.

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1 Q. Where it would be determined by everybody
2 whether he would come back as the pastor?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So when all this came out, you weren't saying
02:29:54PM 5 all is forgiven and come on back next Sunday?
6 A. No. No. Far from it.
7 MS. EAZER: Thank you.
8 THE COURT: Any questions for this witness by
9 the jury? There are some. The bailiff will collect
02:30:06PM 10 those.
11 (Sidebar conference.)
12 THE COURT: Look at the question.
13 MS. EAZER: No objection.
14 MR. SEARS: Judge, the only thing is, I know
02:30:56PM 15 it hasn't come out yet that there were multiple
16 sessions that went over a period of time. If the
17 question is interpreted as in total counting all of the
18 different apology visits, that's fine. I don't know if
19 we can clarify. Maybe on follow up.
02:31:10PM 20 THE COURT: On follow up.
21 MR. SEARS: It just hasn't come out yet.
22 THE COURT: Juror question No. 5. I'm not
23 sure that it's relevant.
24 MS. EAZER: No objection.
02:31:41PM 25 MR. SEARS: No objection.

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1 MS. EAZER: Actually, I do object. I was
2 trying to remember what the context was. I don't
3 remember if he was talking L and L or the
4 defendant or what L thought.
02:32:03PM 5 So I do object. I don't think it's relevant
6 whether he thinks it's appropriate. It think it got so
7 jumbled as to what L was saying perhaps about
8 whether M could be spanked.
9 THE COURT: The question calls for whether he
02:32:21PM 10 thought that was acceptable, whether he thought it was
11 acceptable. I don't see how that's relevant.
12 MS. EAZER: Right.
13 MR. SEARS: I think what he said, if I
14 remember it, was that when -- I can't remember whether
02:32:35PM 15 it was talking about the J kids or somebody else.
16 This was his understanding of the general plan --
17 THE COURT: He talked -- this is my
18 recollection -- concerning the J children, last
19 name, not a descriptive. But regardless, how is his
02:32:52PM 20 opinion as to whether or not that's acceptable or not
21 relevant?
22 MR. SEARS: I think that goes to the question
23 I've been posing all day about what the law is, what
24 the jury is going to be told. I agree asking him his
02:33:07PM 25 opinion doesn't advance that cause very much.

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1 THE COURT: You object on relevance?
2 MR. SEARS: I do.
3 THE COURT: Sustain that objection. I won't
4 ask No. 5.
02:33:23PM 5 No. 6?
6 MR. SEARS: I have no objection.
7 MS. EAZER: No objection.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 (End of sidebar conference.)
02:33:49PM 10 THE COURT: Sir, I have some questions for
11 you. How many families did the defendant actually
12 apologize to?
13 THE WITNESS: An attempt to apology or --
14 THE COURT: The question is how many families
02:34:06PM 15 did the defendant actually apologize to?
16 THE WITNESS: In terms of those who were
17 affected by the children, one. And that was C .
18 I don't believe anything else was done with the other
19 two families.
02:34:28PM 20 THE COURT: Next, sir, when he sat on the wall
21 on the Fourth of July, did the defendant say that he
22 hit M J or that his actions were
23 inappropriate?
24 THE WITNESS: Well, he certainly knew that
02:34:44PM 25 they were inappropriate. I don't recall him ever

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1 saying that "I did hit him." But obviously M
2 said that he was hit. And so we believed that.
3 THE COURT: Is there anything that he said
4 that gave you the impression that he had hit M
02:34:58PM 5 J ?
6 THE WITNESS: The main impression of the night
7 was frustration, irritation, disappointment and what he
8 thought was going to happen that night and what
9 actually turned out to happen.
02:35:18PM 10 THE COURT: Thank you.
11 Any follow up from the state, please?
12 MS. EAZER: No.
13 THE COURT: Mr. Sears?
14 MR. SEARS: Thank you.
02:35:21PM 15 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. SEARS:
17 Q. On the question regarding how many families
18 that you believe Tom apologized to, I couldn't hear all
19 of your answer. Did you say how many?
02:35:38PM 20 A. In terms of the families that were affected by
21 the disciplinary action that he took, just the L
22 family, C . But I did -- as I mentioned earlier,
23 he did go up to Chino Valley to some of the Owens
24 families where an attempt was made for apology.
02:35:56PM 25 Q. How many different Owens families do you

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1 remember?
2 A. No more than two.
3 Q. And C . Do you know whether he ever
4 apologized to the J s?
02:36:06PM 5 A. Not in my presence.
6 Q. Might he have apologized to other families --
7 the J s, the W s, other family's -- that you
8 just don't know about as we sit here today?
9 MS. EAZER: Objection. Speculation.
02:36:17PM 10 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 Q. BY MR. SEARS: Your answer here today is
12 limited to the apologies that you know about because
13 you were present; right?
14 A. Or that I was reported to with the C
02:36:28PM 15 when I was out of town.
16 Q. And could there have been other apologies made
17 that you were not present for?
18 A. It's possible.
19 MS. EAZER: Objection. Speculation.
02:36:38PM 20 THE COURT: Overruled. His answer will stand.
21 MR. SEARS: Thank you.
22 No other questions.
23 THE COURT: Follow up to that, Ms. Eazer?
24 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
02:36:42PM 25 BY MS. EAZER:

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1 Q. Do you have any reason to believe, based on
2 everything you know from investigation all the way up
3 until when this came back up in 2015, 2016, that the
4 defendant apologized to the other families of the
02:36:57PM 5 children who were involved? Any reason to believe that
6 happened?
7 A. No reason at all to believe that that
8 happened.
9 MS. EAZER: Thank you.
02:37:04PM 10 No further questions.
11 THE COURT: Thank you.
12 May this witness be excused?
13 MS. EAZER: Yes.
14 THE COURT: Thank you. You can step down,
02:37:11PM 15 sir.
16 Call your next witness.
17 MS. EAZER: State calls Paul Clemmons.
18 THE COURT: Sir, please approach the middle of
19 the courtroom where the microphone is so you can get
02:38:03PM 20 sworn in.
21 Thank you.
22 PAUL CLEMMONS,
23 having been first duly sworn upon his oath to tell the
24 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
02:38:13PM 25 testified as follows:

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1 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. Have a seat.
2 / / /
3 DIRECT EXAMINATION
4 BY MS. EAZER:
02:38:33PM 5 Q. Good afternoon. Please tell us your name.
6 A. My name is Paul Clemmons.
7 Q. Do you live in or about Prescott?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Are you employed?
02:38:41PM 10 A. Yes, I am.
11 Q. How are you employed?
12 A. Right now I'm employed as a youth -- high
13 school youth director at Calvary Chapel of Prescott.
14 Q. Back in 2015 how were you employed?
02:38:55PM 15 A. Employed as a police officer with the Prescott
16 Police Department.
17 Q. Your job now sounds much nicer.
18 A. Thanks.
19 Q. How long were you with the Prescott Police
02:39:04PM 20 Department?
21 A. For just about 22 years, from 1995 to 2016.
22 Q. And back in 2015 what was your assignment?
23 A. I was a lead police officer working patrol.
24 Q. In that capacity, sir, did you have occasion
02:39:22PM 25 to take a report back in July of 2015 from individuals

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1 by the name of J and H E ?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. Did you author a report regarding your contact
4 with the E ?
02:39:37PM 5 A. I did.
6 Q. I'll show you what's been marked as Exhibit 23
7 and ask if that looks like a copy of the report you
8 prepared reference your contact with H and J
9 E ?
02:39:50PM 10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. Now, I'm not going to ask you to refer to it
12 right now. If you need to it's there. I just have a
13 few questions for you. Number 1, was the contact with
14 J and H E in person or over the phone?
02:40:05PM 15 A. In person.
16 Q. When did the contact take place?
17 A. Took place in the Prescott Police Department.
18 Q. And do you recall the date without looking at
19 your report?
02:40:15PM 20 A. I believe it was Friday, July 17, 2015.
21 Q. Now, do you remember that off the top of your
22 head or did you have a chance to review your report?
23 A. I reviewed the report.
24 Q. Now, I just have a couple of questions. In
02:40:34PM 25 your report did you document what J told you

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1 specifically?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. And did you document separately in your report
4 what H told you specifically?
02:40:45PM 5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. I'm not asking you just yet about what each
7 said, but did J talk to you about something that
8 happened to him?
9 A. Yes.
02:40:54PM 10 Q. Did H talk to you about something that
11 happened to additional children back in 1995 to 2000?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. Did you kind of separate that out
14 as to what J said happened to him and what H
02:41:08PM 15 said happened to other kids back then?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Sir, in speaking to J , did J ever
18 say he had been tutored?
19 A. No, he did not.
02:41:19PM 20 Q. Did J ever say he had been paddled?
21 A. No, he didn't.
22 Q. In speaking to H , did she ever say
23 J had been tutored or paddled?
24 A. No.
02:41:30PM 25 Q. H was talking to you about other

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1 children and things that happened in '95 to 2000. Did
2 she tell you about some of those children having been
3 tutored and paddled?
4 A. I don't know if she specifically told me what
02:41:44PM 5 had happened. I think she just told me in general
6 terms there was some things that had happened to those
7 kids.
8 Q. Do you remember if she said it happened in the
9 context of tutoring, by the defendant tutoring other
02:41:59PM 10 kids?
11 A. I believe she did.
12 Q. Any question in your mind, as you sit here
13 today, that J E never said he was tutored or
14 paddled by the defendant?
02:42:10PM 15 A. No. There is no question in my mind.
16 Q. That he did not?
17 A. Did not say.
18 MS. EAZER: Thank you.
19 No further questions.
02:42:16PM 20 THE COURT: Cross-examination.
21 CROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. SEARS:
23 Q. Good afternoon. It looks to me like this is a
24 situation in which you were a patrol officer and
02:42:36PM 25 initial reports were being taken from people who had

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1 information that were quickly going to be passed on to
2 criminal investigations.
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. There was no likely prospect that this was
02:42:46PM 5 going to be your case to take to a conclusion; right?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Did this interview take place in one of the
8 little interview rooms off the lobby in the police
9 department?
02:42:54PM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was it recorded?
12 A. No, it was not.
13 Q. Did you know these people were coming in or
14 were you just located and said we've got a job for you
02:43:07PM 15 to do?
16 A. Yes. I was out and about and got a radio call
17 to come back to the station, and that's how it
18 happened.
19 Q. And this happens from time to time if there is
02:43:17PM 20 no detective available to see somebody?
21 A. Happens all the time.
22 Q. The report's going to be made to a uniformed
23 officer?
24 A. Yes.
02:43:24PM 25 Q. And passed down the line to a detective?

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1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And your report says that you didn't know
3 anything about this and you did a little searching and
4 discovered that another person had come in earlier and
02:43:37PM 5 apparently reported something about this incident;
6 right?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. A Pastor Dan Rydberg. Do you know him?
9 A. No.
02:43:46PM 10 Q. You didn't know any of these people?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You got a copy of the report that
13 Officer Forrest took from Pastor Dan Rydberg as you
14 were getting ready to talk to H and her son,
02:43:59PM 15 J ; right?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. You read through that quickly?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Get an idea what are we talking about?
02:44:04PM 20 A. That's exactly right.
21 Q. Do you remember seeing in that report from
22 Officer Forrest this story about this very young child
23 saying that he had been paddled and tutored?
24 MS. EAZER: Objection. Misstates the
02:44:18PM 25 evidence. May we approach, Judge? Also hearsay.

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1 THE COURT: The objection is sustained.
2 MR. SEARS: I'll rephrase.
3 Q. Did you read the report from Officer Forrest
4 in sufficient detail to get a full understanding of
02:44:35PM 5 what this other reporting party had said to him?
6 A. I read the report and I understood the report.
7 Q. You heard a somewhat different version
8 yourself directly from H and J about what
9 happened; right?
02:44:49PM 10 A. I read the report in 2015. I haven't seen it
11 since. I can't answer that.
12 Q. You don't read it every night before you go to
13 bed?
14 A. No.
02:45:01PM 15 Q. Now, in your report here -- you have a copy of
16 it there?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. If you need to look at it to refresh your
19 recollection, tell us, please. That's fine. We just
02:45:14PM 20 need to know for the record that you don't have a
21 present recollection and need to look at that to
22 refresh what you did all those years ago.
23 All right?
24 A. Yes, sir.
02:45:21PM 25 Q. Do you remember being told by J that this

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1 happened when he was four years old?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Do you remember J telling you specifically
4 that he didn't have a lot of memories as a four year
02:45:35PM 5 old?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. You wrote that down in your report because
8 that's what he said?
9 A. That's right.
02:45:40PM 10 Q. Rather than recording this you were taken
11 notes?
12 A. I took notes.
13 Q. And you wrote your report from those notes;
14 right?
02:45:47PM 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then those notes were destroyed?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Very common practice; right?
19 A. Yes, it is.
02:45:53PM 20 Q. You wouldn't have written down what J said
21 about his memories had you not heard him says that;
22 correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Did J also tell you that he really couldn't
02:46:06PM 25 explain what he was doing at this time or place, that

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1 he just remembers this act taking place and couldn't
2 account for why he was there?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. When you talked to his mother, the same topic
02:46:19PM 5 came up and she said to you that she was trying to
6 remember a time when J would have been left alone at
7 the church?
8 MS. EAZER: Objection, Judge. Improper
9 impeachment.
02:46:30PM 10 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 Q. BY MR. SEARS: Do you remember talking to
12 J 's mother, H , about whether she remembered
13 why and how and under what circumstances J would
14 have been at this place?
02:46:45PM 15 MS. EAZER: Same objection, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Overruled. Calls for yes or no.
17 He can answer that question.
18 THE WITNESS: Say it again. Sorry.
19 MR. SEARS: I'll try.
02:46:54PM 20 Q. Do you remember talking to H E ,
21 J 's mom, that day three years ago about whether she
22 remembered the circumstances under which J would
23 have been at this place with the defendant?
24 A. Yes.
02:47:11PM 25 Q. And what did she tell you?

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1 MS. EAZER: Objection, Judge. Same objection.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 Q. BY MR. SEARS: Did you -- after you
4 interviewed her, was she able to provide you with a
02:47:22PM 5 detailed explanation of how it was that J came to be
6 in this place?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did she tell you that she had done some other
9 things to try and pin down the circumstances or details
02:47:41PM 10 of how it was that J came to be --
11 MS. EAZER: Objection, Judge. Improper
12 impeachment.
13 THE COURT: Sustained.
14 Q. BY MR. SEARS: Was she able at the end of this
02:47:51PM 15 interview to give you an explanation of how J came
16 to be at this place?
17 MS. EAZER: Same objection.
18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 Q. BY MR. SEARS: At the end of this interview
02:48:02PM 20 did you have information that you put in your report
21 about how it was that J came to be in this place?
22 MS. EAZER: Same objection, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 Q. BY MR. SEARS: Is this report the only work
02:48:16PM 25 you did in this case?

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1 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, sir.
2 MR. SEARS: Thank you.
3 THE COURT: Redirect, please.
4 MS. EAZER: I have nothing, Judge.
02:48:23PM 5 THE COURT: Any questions for this witness by
6 my members of the jury? I see none.
7 May this witness be excused?
8 MS. EAZER: Yes.
9 THE COURT: Thank you, sir.
02:48:48PM 10 Why don't we take our recess. We'll take 15
11 minutes from now.
12 Remember the admonition.
13 (Proceedings continued outside the
14 presence of jury.)
02:49:44PM 15 THE COURT: Anything to address?
16 MS. EAZER: No, Your Honor.
17 MR. SEARS: No, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Thank you.
19 MS. EAZER: Before we call the witness in, it
03:09:18PM 20 also occurs to me -- I want to clear something up. I
21 know the Court hasn't likely seen the letter Ms. L
22 wrote. Mr. Sears was saying she didn't say in this
23 meeting we confronted him about bare-bottom spankings.
24 But it is replete through the first page that
03:09:43PM 25 that's what this was all about. That's what the uproar

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1 was about. And so if he was to say you never mentioned
2 anything about bare-bottom spankings, it would be my
3 intention, with the Court's permission of course, to
4 say that she mentioned that earlier on in the letter
03:09:59PM 5 that that was the issue.
6 Again, without going into anything said to
7 her -- and so I did just want to clarify that. I
8 think -- I don't know if you've seen the letter
9 recently.
03:10:09PM 10 THE COURT: I have not. But that would be an
11 issue for redirect perhaps.
12 MS. EAZER: I just want to make sure I'm
13 walking carefully and staying within the Court's
14 rulings.
03:10:22PM 15 THE COURT: I don't know what her explanation
16 would be today, the question if you ask her that. So
17 we'll see what it is.
18 Let's bring Ms. L forward.
19 If you wouldn't mind coming forward.
03:10:35PM 20 MS. EAZER: She's not in here yet.
21 (Pause in proceedings.)
22 THE COURT: Ms. L , come forward to the
23 podium so I can talk to you for a few moments.
24 For the record, you're C L ; is that
03:11:17PM 25 correct?

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1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 THE COURT: Thank you. Nice to meet you.
3 I want to address some things before your
4 testimony about things that we can't get into so that
03:11:29PM 5 we don't have issues coming out while the jury is here.
6 We can't discuss any specifics concerning
7 anything D told you that he says occurred between
8 the defendant and himself.
9 Do you understand?
03:11:49PM 10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 THE COURT: You can talk about general -- let
12 me think about this for a second. You can testify
13 about observations that you made in seeing some -- if
14 you saw some bruises or things of that nature on your
03:12:38PM 15 son and the time frame of that.
16 But if it comes to anything that he told you
17 about what occurred, you can't testify to that because
18 that would be inadmissible hearsay.
19 Okay?
03:12:48PM 20 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
21 THE COURT: Is that a yes?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 THE COURT: Thank you.
24 Do you think that covers it, Mr. Sears or
03:12:57PM 25 Ms. Eazer? Or anything additional I should say?

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1 MR. SEARS: Your Honor, at the risk of being
2 excruciating repetitive on this point, my concern was
3 the October 20, 2000, meeting with Ms. L ; my
4 client; Shorty Owens; her son, D , and J L
03:13:24PM 5 and the questions and the proffer from the state about
6 whether she talked about this particular subject at
7 that meeting.
8 And I think your rulings are that
9 notwithstanding what's in this letter that we've been
03:13:36PM 10 talking about, she could testify to whatever she
11 remembers.
12 Is that a fair assessment?
13 THE COURT: That's correct.
14 MR. SEARS: Other than the inadmissible
03:13:52PM 15 hearsay from D , whatever else she remembers from
16 this meeting, we can do that and it becomes a matter of
17 cross-examination if I choose to do that?
18 THE COURT: Correct. Yes, sir.
19 MR. SEARS: Then I have no other questions.
03:14:02PM 20 THE COURT: Anything else, Ms. Eazer?
21 MS. EAZER: No, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Thank you. Typically I'm not a
23 fan of objections mid question. But to avoid any
24 issues, I'd be okay with it in this circumstances to
03:14:45PM 25 make sure we avoid any issues.

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1 Okay, Mr. Sears.
2 MR. SEARS: Thank you.
3 (Proceedings continued in the presence
4 of jury.)
03:15:39PM 5 THE COURT: Ms. L , come forward to the
6 podium, please. The court clerk will swear you in.
7 Thank you.
8 C S. L ,
9 having been first duly sworn upon her oath to tell the
03:15:41PM 10 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
11 testified as follows:
12 THE COURT: Have a seat.
13 Please make sure the microphone is in front of
14 you.
03:16:19PM 15 Whenever you're ready.
16 DIRECT EXAMINATION
17 BY MS. EAZER:
18 Q. Good afternoon. Could you please introduce
19 yourself to the jury.
03:16:23PM 20 A. My name is C L .
21 Q. And we've heard there are two C L .
22 What is your middle name?
23 A. S .
24 Q. C , do you live in the Prescott area?
03:16:36PM 25 A. I do.

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1 Q. How long have you lived in Prescott?
2 A. 34 years.
3 Q. Do you have family here?
4 A. My son and his children.
03:16:48PM 5 Q. What is your son's name?
6 A. D .
7 Q. What is D 's birth date?
8 A. February 2, 1988.
9 Q. You said your son and his children live here?
03:17:02PM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you have other relatives that live in
12 Prescott?
13 A. Yes. I have -- she used to be my
14 sister-in-law and niece.
03:17:16PM 15 Q. What's your used-to-be sister-in-law's name?
16 A. C L .
17 Q. Is that C A L ?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You say used to be your sister-in-law. We
03:17:29PM 20 heard testimony already that you and C A
21 Married two L brothers. Correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Both of whom are deceased now?
24 A. Mine is. Yes.
03:17:40PM 25 Q. You don't know whether hers is?

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1 A. Right.
2 Q. Are you, then, I guess, kind of peripherally
3 related to H E as well?
4 A. She would be my niece.
03:17:52PM 5 Q. Her children would be second niece, nephew
6 type thing?
7 A. Something like that.
8 Q. All right. Let me ask you right off the bat.
9 Do you see your former sister-in-law very often?
03:18:16PM 10 A. No.
11 Q. How long has it been since you've seen C
12 A ?
13 A. Probably a year and just saw her in the
14 supermarket.
03:18:25PM 15 Q. So you don't get together and socialize or
16 anything of that nature?
17 A. No.
18 Q. How about H ? Do you see her on a
19 regular basis?
03:18:36PM 20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you work?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. And what type of work do you do?
24 A. I'm a residential appraiser for Yavapai
03:18:47PM 25 County.

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1 Q. And how long have you been doing that?
2 A. 21 years.
3 Q. C , I want to talk to you about some
4 things that happened back in 1995 to 2000. Back in
03:19:05PM 5 1995 did you attend a church called "Miller Valley
6 Baptist Church"?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did your son attend that church with you?
9 A. Yes.
03:19:18PM 10 Q. Is D your only child?
11 A. No. I have a daughter.
12 Q. Does she live elsewhere?
13 A. She lives in Redondo Beach.
14 Q. What was your daughter's name?
03:19:30PM 15 A. C .
16 Q. And how old is C or if you know her birth
17 date?
18 A. 11/28/81.
19 Q. Older sister?
03:19:42PM 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did she used to baby-sit some of the kids?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Back in 1995 did you and your children attend
24 Miller Valley Baptist Church?
03:19:52PM 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. In 1995 were you married at the time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. At some point between 1995 and 2000 did you go
4 through a divorce?
03:20:03PM 5 A. Yes. 1998.
6 Q. Starting in 1995 how long had you been going
7 to Miller Valley Baptist Church at that time, as best
8 you can recall?
9 A. Eight years approximately.
03:20:32PM 10 Q. And I'm assuming you knew the former pastor,
11 Bob Selph?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you think highly of him?
14 A. Very.
03:20:42PM 15 Q. How big a part of your life was the church
16 back then?
17 A. It was a very big part of my life.
18 Q. And did you raise your kids to be very
19 respectful of the church as well?
03:20:59PM 20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you attend -- how many times a week did
22 you and your children and husband attend church?
23 A. My husband did not attend. And I would go on
24 Sundays and Wednesday evenings.
03:21:17PM 25 Q. All right. Did the kids go on those two

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1 occasions as well for the most part?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, at some point do you recall the pastor
4 changing and a new pastor coming in?
03:21:32PM 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you recall who the new pastor was?
7 A. Thomas Chantry.
8 Q. When Tom Chantry started as the new pastor,
9 did you try yourself to welcome him into the church?
03:21:48PM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you ever have him over for meals at your
12 family's house?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Were you aware of other members of the
03:21:55PM 15 congregations that did that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Initially did you think highly of him?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you think -- even though he didn't come to
03:22:11PM 20 your house personally, did you think you were welcoming
21 to him in your behaviors and such on church Sundays and
22 Wednesday?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. At some point after Tom Chantry became the new
03:22:24PM 25 pastor, did he approach you about tutoring your son,

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1 D ?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you recall approximately when that was?
4 A. 1998.
03:22:36PM 5 Q. And if D was born in '88 he would have
6 been 10 years old?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you remember where you were when Tom
9 Chantry approached you and asked if he could tutor
03:22:52PM 10 D .
11 A. I was at the church.
12 Q. In 1998 you indicated you were going through a
13 divorce?
14 A. Yes.
03:23:00PM 15 Q. Was Tom Chantry aware of that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it something you had at any point sought
18 maybe some counsel or just talked to Pastor Chantry
19 about at the time when you were going through a
03:23:17PM 20 divorce?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And, C , I don't mean to get personal,
23 but was this a difficult time in your life?
24 A. Very.
03:23:25PM 25 Q. Did you agree to allow D to be tutored by

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1 Tom Chantry?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was there an arrangement as to what days of
4 the week he would tutor D ?
03:23:34PM 5 A. Yes. Two days a week.
6 Q. And do you remember what those days were?
7 A. Tuesday and Thursday.
8 Q. And was there an arrangement as to where this
9 tutoring would take place?
03:23:46PM 10 A. At the church.
11 Q. Was it, to your knowledge, in the church or at
12 the parsonage or both?
13 A. The parsonage.
14 Q. Was there a specific reason, if you recall,
03:24:00PM 15 why Tom Chantry offered to tutor D ?
16 A. To help him with his math studies.
17 Q. Had you told him at some time that prior to
18 that that D had difficulty with math?
19 A. Yes.
03:24:17PM 20 Q. When D was 10 years old, was he tall for
21 his age? small for his age? average?
22 A. Small.
23 Q. Now, at some point, C -- I'm going to
24 kind of jump forward. At some point in the year 2000
03:24:38PM 25 did you see some injuries on your son?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And specifically do you recall what month I'm
3 speaking of?
4 A. October.
03:24:48PM 5 Q. Do you remember writing a letter to the church
6 back in 2000?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. If the letter talked about it being in
9 September, do you have a different recollection now?
03:25:03PM 10 A. That would probably be correct.
11 Q. Okay. Now, tell us about the day that you saw
12 the injuries.
13 I'm going to be a little more specific. Did
14 you pick up D from tutoring that day?
03:25:21PM 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And where did you pick him up from?
17 A. The parsonage.
18 Q. All right. When you -- did you get out of
19 your car or wait?
03:25:32PM 20 A. No. I got out of my car, went to the door and
21 knocked.
22 Q. All right. When you saw your son, did you --
23 just yes or no. Did you notice something about his
24 physical behavior that caused you concern?
03:25:48PM 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. What did you notice?
2 A. He could hardly walk.
3 Q. All right. As a result of what you saw that
4 day, did you later when you got home have an
03:26:02PM 5 opportunity to look at your son's backside, meaning his
6 bottom and his legs?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you look at him unclothed, in that
9 fashion?
03:26:13PM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you please tell the jury what you
12 observed.
13 A. There were about four-inch bruises from the
14 top of his buttocks down his thighs, all the way down
03:26:29PM 15 his thighs, dark purple, some blisters.
16 Q. How many bruises do you think there were?
17 A. It was solid bruise.
18 Q. Did the bruises have a pattern to them?
19 A. Yes.
03:26:50PM 20 Q. Can you describe what the pattern looked like.
21 A. They were about four inches wide all the way
22 across.
23 Q. Straight?
24 A. Yes.
03:27:05PM 25 Q. Were the bruises consistent with something the

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1 shape of a board?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. C , what did you do when you saw the
4 bruises?
03:27:20PM 5 A. Well, I felt sick. And I wasn't sure what to
6 do.
7 Q. All right. Did you call the police?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you pray?
03:27:37PM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. At that point you're going through a divorce
12 or was your divorce final?
13 A. It had been final in August.
14 Q. At this point now as a newly divorced mother
03:27:55PM 15 of two, how heavy was your reliance on the church at
16 that time?
17 A. Very reliant on the church.
18 Q. In the weeks after you saw these bruises on
19 your son, did you think about going to someone at the
03:28:15PM 20 church?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Had you made a decision to go to somebody at
23 the church?
24 A. I don't know.
03:28:28PM 25 Q. Thinking back from that day, had there been

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1 other occasions that you saw bruises on D similar
2 to those which you saw that day?
3 A. In the summer previous.
4 Q. And what did you see on that occasion?
03:28:51PM 5 A. He had on his swimming suit. He used to go
6 swimming. And I saw bruises under his swimming suit.
7 Q. On the thighs?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, at some point did you speak to your
03:29:11PM 10 niece, H E ?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And I don't want you to talk about the
13 conversation you had with her. But as a result of your
14 conversation with H E , did you receive a
03:29:23PM 15 call from someone at the church the following day?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who did you receive a call from?
18 A. Richard Howe.
19 Q. And as a result of that call, was there a
03:29:41PM 20 meeting held at your house shortly thereafter?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Who attended that meeting?
23 A. D ; myself; my nephew, J , and P , Tom
24 Chantry and Eric Owens.
03:30:03PM 25 Q. Is that who people call Shorty?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. At that meeting did you or Eric confront the
3 defendant, Thomas Chantry, about spanking your son bare
4 bottom?
03:30:22PM 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And do you recall whether the defendant
7 admitted he had spanked your son bare bottom or denied
8 it?
9 A. I don't recall him admitting it.
03:30:42PM 10 Q. Do you recall if he admitted spanking your
11 son?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did he specifically deny, though, that the
14 spankings were bare bottom, if you recall?
03:30:57PM 15 A. I don't recall.
16 Q. Now, after this meeting do you recall there
17 being kind of a more informal church investigation
18 done?
19 A. Yes.
03:31:14PM 20 Q. And do you recall being asked to prepare a
21 letter outlining just some of your thoughts?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And after that meeting were you left with any
24 kind of a sense that Tom Chantry wasn't going to pastor
03:31:40PM 25 any further, wasn't going to become a pastor in the

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1 future? Just yes or no.
2 A. Yes, I was.
3 THE COURT: Hang on second. Which meeting are
4 you referring to? The meeting at her house?
03:31:56PM 5 MS. EAZER: I'm sorry, Judge. That was a bad
6 question. After the church council. I just totally
7 left out a whole chunk.
8 Q. After the church council and this formal
9 investigation was done, were you left with the sense
03:32:10PM 10 that Tom Chantry wasn't going to be a pastor anymore?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was he subsequently no longer at Miller
13 Valley?
14 A. Yes.
03:32:23PM 15 Q. All right. Did you continue to attend Miller
16 Valley Baptist Church for a period of time?
17 A. For a very short period of time.
18 Q. Do you recall how short?
19 A. Maybe a month.
03:32:38PM 20 Q. All right. Without going into too much
21 detail, did you leave Miller Valley because of anything
22 involving the investigation that was done or what
23 happened to your son?
24 A. Yes.
03:32:57PM 25 Q. At some point down the road did you learn that

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1 the defendant was pastoring again?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you recall when you learned that?
4 A. Approximately 2014, '15.
03:33:27PM 5 Q. And how did you learn that?
6 A. From H , I think. It was H that
7 told me.
8 Q. Now, let me ask you. At some point did you
9 also learn about H 's son, J , coming forward
03:33:49PM 10 with some allegations?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. SEARS: Relevance.
13 THE COURT: Sustained.
14 The answer is stricken from the record and not
03:33:58PM 15 to be considered by the jurors for any purpose.
16 MS. EAZER: I'm trying to get a time frame.
17 Q. You said you learned that the defendant was
18 now pastoring again. Do you know if it was at the same
19 time you spoke to H about --
03:34:11PM 20 A. No. It wasn't at the same time.
21 Q. Was it before or after?
22 A. Before.
23 Q. Now, there has been some questions asked and
24 some statements made that the L family, large
03:34:31PM 25 family, that all attended Miller Valley Baptist Church.

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1 Can you tell us about how many people in the L
2 family were attended Miller Valley Baptist Church back
3 in the year 2000.
4 A. Eight.
03:34:50PM 5 Q. Okay. So you -- go ahead and tell us who was
6 attending.
7 A. Myself, my daughter, my son, my
8 brother-in-law, his wife and their three kids -- K ,
9 H and J .
03:35:09PM 10 Q. Okay. That's it?
11 A. That's it.
12 Q. Any other L s ever attend, to your
13 knowledge, other than those you've mentioned?
14 A. My husband once in a while.
03:35:23PM 15 Q. And that would have been prior to 2000?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, when this incident all came up with the
18 church investigation, did you ever go to Rich or Shorty
19 and say if you don't get rid of Tom Chantry, all the
03:35:44PM 20 L s are going to stop coming to church?
21 A. No.
22 Q. To your knowledge, did any L go and
23 threaten to stop going to the church if they didn't get
24 rid of Tom Chantry?
03:35:54PM 25 A. No.

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1 Q. In 2015 or whenever it was that you learned
2 Tom Chantry was pastoring again, did you yourself try
3 to take any steps or do anything to object to that?
4 A. No.
03:36:16PM 5 Q. Do you remember at some point being told that
6 he had written a book or was trying to publish a book?
7 A. No.
8 Q. All right. Do you know anything about a book
9 Tom Chantry wrote?
03:36:30PM 10 A. No.
11 Q. There has been some discussion that maybe one
12 or more L s wrote a letter to the publisher or
13 editor of the book objecting to it being published.
14 Do you remember if you did anything like that?
03:36:47PM 15 A. I recall J did.
16 Q. All right. You didn't?
17 A. I don't recall.
18 Q. All right. Was that a big deal to you? Did
19 you ever read his book?
03:36:59PM 20 A. No.
21 Q. If you didn't read it, I guess this would
22 sound like a silly question, but did anything about the
23 fact that this man wrote a book outrage you?
24 A. No.
03:37:10PM 25 Q. Were you upset when you found out he was

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1 pastoring again?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Anything about that displeasure that has
4 caused you to say untrue things today?
03:37:24PM 5 A. No.
6 Q. Everything that you've talked about today, did
7 you write it out back in 2000 for the church
8 investigation?
9 A. Yes.
03:37:36PM 10 Q. And that would have been before you knew he
11 was going to become a pastor again?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. As you sit here today, do you have regrets
14 about not calling the police back in September of 2000?
03:37:55PM 15 A. Yes.
16 MS. EAZER: Thank you.
17 I don't have anything further.
18 THE COURT: Thank you.
19 Cross-examination.
03:38:01PM 20 MR. SEARS: No questions, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Thank you.
22 Any members of the jury have questions for
23 this witness? There are.
24 Thank you. Counsel can approach.
03:38:29PM 25 (Sidebar conference.)

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1 THE COURT: This is juror question No. 7.
2 MS. EAZER: No objection.
3 MR. SEARS: No objection.
4 THE COURT: Thank you.
03:38:43PM 5 (End of sidebar conference.)
6 THE COURT: I have a question for you. Did
7 you think at the time to take any pictures of D 's
8 bruises?
9 THE WITNESS: No. Unfortunately.
03:38:57PM 10 THE COURT: Any follow up from the state?
11 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
12 BY MS. EAZER:
13 Q. At that time, and now I'm going to show my age
14 and lack of tech savviness, did you have cool, little
03:39:10PM 15 smart phones that you could take pictures with easily?
16 A. No.
17 MS. EAZER: All right. Thank you.
18 No further questions.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Sears, any follow up?
03:39:20PM 20 MR. SEARS: No, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Thank you for your time.
22 MS. EAZER: Judge, could I just have 20
23 seconds to see -- I don't know if we'll get through the
24 two witnesses. Could I have a chance to see which one
03:39:46PM 25 is most available to come back tomorrow before I decide

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1 which one to call?
2 THE COURT: No one is coming back tomorrow.
3 Next week. Sure. You can go outside and do that.
4 We'll wait for you.
03:40:38PM 5 (Pause in proceedings.)
6 MS. EAZER: State calls Eric Owens.
7 THE COURT: Sir, come to the podium. The
8 clerk will swear you in.
9 ERIC OWENS,
03:40:46PM 10 having been first duly sworn upon his oath to tell the
11 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
12 testified as follows:
13 THE COURT: Have a seat. Move the microphone
14 in front of you.
03:41:11PM 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MS. EAZER:
17 Q. Good afternoon. Could you please introduce
18 yourself to our jury.
19 A. I'm Eric Owens. I'm an elder at the Miller
03:41:28PM 20 Valley Baptist Church.
21 Q. And, Mr. Owens, do you live in or about the
22 Prescott area?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. And how long have you lived in Prescott?
03:41:36PM 25 A. Since 1976.

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1 Q. Are you married?
2 A. I am.
3 Q. How long have you been married?
4 A. For 33 years.
03:41:47PM 5 Q. Do you have children?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. And how many children do you have?
8 A. Two.
9 Q. Do you have grandchildren?
03:41:54PM 10 A. One. Almost within a month.
11 Q. Now, do you work in addition to being an elder
12 at Miller Valley?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. What type of employment do you have?
03:42:06PM 15 A. I own a water well drilling and pump company.
16 Q. Does that keep you pretty busy?
17 A. It does.
18 Q. Sir, can you tell us how long you have been
19 attending Miller Valley Baptist Church.
03:42:19PM 20 A. Since 1986.
21 Q. And you indicated you are an elder there;
22 correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How long have you been an elder with the
03:42:29PM 25 church?

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1 A. Probably since 1997 or '98.
2 Q. You attended for a number of years before
3 becoming an elder?
4 A. Yes.
03:42:49PM 5 Q. And so we heard some testimony earlier today
6 from Rich Howe. And you were an elder along with him
7 at the time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I want to talk a little bit about a time frame
03:43:07PM 10 that the jury is hearing repeatedly throughout this
11 trial -- 1995 to 2000. We've heard about a change in
12 pastors from Bob Selph to Thomas Chantry. And I'll ask
13 you because everybody else has been asked, did you
14 think highly of Bob Selph?
03:43:25PM 15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you have -- in addition to you being an
17 elder along with him -- because we've also been
18 explained that the pastor is considered to be an elder.
19 A. Yes.
03:43:37PM 20 Q. In addition to being an elder with him, did
21 you have a close friendship with him as well?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When he announced he was going to be
24 resigning, were you saddened by that?
03:43:51PM 25 A. Well, yes. I mean, I was glad that he was

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1 continuing to do what he was doing, but yes.
2 Q. He had a calling to go somewhere else?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Somewhere in South Carolina, I think?
03:44:05PM 5 A. I would venture to say.
6 Q. Now, had you met Tom Chantry before he came to
7 step in as the new pastor?
8 A. Maybe briefly when he came out. I think he
9 preached prior to being called as a pastor. Maybe
03:44:28PM 10 there was a little, short window in there.
11 Q. All right. Do you recall what month in 1995
12 he actually started on as the interim pastor?
13 A. I couldn't tell you.
14 Q. If some records we've been referring to
03:44:47PM 15 throughout this trial indicated it was in June of 1995
16 that he stepped in as the interim pastor, any reason to
17 think that wouldn't be correct?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Now, I want to get your impression -- let me
03:44:57PM 20 back up.
21 We've heard this congregation was a very close
22 congregation. Would you agree with that?
23 A. I would agree with that.
24 Q. Did families get together frequently for
03:45:12PM 25 events, holidays and celebrations at the church and

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1 such?
2 A. Yes. There was at least maybe three, four
3 times a year we would do stuff.
4 Q. Did families also get together to participate
03:45:24PM 5 in various ministries or causes for the church, such as
6 Meals on Wheels?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. To your knowledge, was it a not uncommon thing
9 that folks would have their pastor over to dinner at
03:45:40PM 10 their homes?
11 A. Not uncommon.
12 Q. I asked you a double negative. Was it a
13 normal thing for folks to have the pastor over for
14 dinner?
03:45:53PM 15 A. It would be a normal thing to do. I don't
16 know that it happened a lot. But I would say it's a
17 normal thing to do.
18 Q. Do you know if when Tom Chantry came, did you
19 have him join your family for a meal or holiday
03:46:08PM 20 celebration or anything of that nature?
21 A. We probably did. But oftentimes it would be
22 just at the church or restaurant in town, that kind of
23 a thing. Something convenient. We lived in Chino
24 Valley.
03:46:26PM 25 Q. There was some testimony that he was younger

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1 and single and didn't have kids, that some of the
2 families took him in frequently for means.
3 Were you aware that folks were doing that?
4 A. Yeah.
03:46:40PM 5 Q. What was your perception as to the
6 congregation's feeling towards Tom Chantry? Did they
7 welcome him?
8 A. Absolutely.
9 Q. Did you attempt to make him feel welcome?
03:46:57PM 10 A. Absolutely.
11 Q. If there was a statement that Tom Chantry saw
12 no love when he started at that church and in fact
13 everybody was kind of anti-Tom from the get go, would
14 you agree with that statement?
03:47:09PM 15 A. No.
16 Q. Now, were you in attendance at a Fourth of
17 July celebration the first month Tom got there?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you recall an occurrence during that
03:47:30PM 20 celebration?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Let me back up. Do you recall about how many
23 folks might have been there later on in the day?
24 A. Had to be a parking lot filled up. Maybe
03:47:45PM 25 there was 30 people there.

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1 Q. Was there a lot of activity, lot of kids
2 running around?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you witness this incident occur in the
03:47:59PM 5 parking lot between M J and Thomas Chantry?
6 >
7 A. I did not.
8 Q. How did you became aware of it?
9 A. Somebody had told me there.
03:48:12PM 10 Q. Were you an elder at that time?
11 A. I was not.
12 Q. Did you -- so it wouldn't have been your job
13 to go address this with Tom; correct?
14 A. Correct.
03:48:23PM 15 Q. Did you have any part in addressing Tom about
16 what happened that day?
17 A. I did not.
18 Q. Let's talk about after that day. To your
19 knowledge -- and again I have no idea because you
03:48:36PM 20 weren't an elder at that time. But, to your knowledge,
21 was there discussion within the congregation amongst
22 its members expressing some concerns about what had
23 happened at that Fourth of July celebration?
24 A. After the fact.
03:48:55PM 25 Q. That's what I'm talking about. So some

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1 members may have expressed concerns about some of the
2 things they'd seen that day?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And do you recall how the church, more
03:49:12PM 5 importantly the church's elders, dealt with those
6 concerns?
7 A. I do not know how they dealt with it.
8 Q. In the end did you become aware that it was
9 decided let's just -- you know -- put that in the past
03:49:25PM 10 and move forward?
11 A. I do not know.
12 Q. You weren't part of any of those discussions
13 other than you were aware there were discussions and
14 concerns expressed. Is that safe to say?
03:49:38PM 15 A. Correct.
16 Q. At some point then L J moves away and
17 you immediately take his spot as elder?
18 A. I became an elder there shortly after that, I
19 believe.
03:49:56PM 20 Q. If L J left in February of 1996, would
21 it be your recollection that you didn't start until
22 April 11 of 1999 as an elder?
23 MR. SEARS: That may misstate the evidence,
24 Your Honor. The date may be wrong.
03:50:23PM 25 THE COURT: Why don't you ask it again

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1 concerning the time Mr. J left. I'm not sure you
2 have the date accurate.
3 Q. BY MS. EAZER: If there was some notes saying
4 that L J left in February of 1997, does that
03:50:38PM 5 sound about right to you?
6 A. That sounds about right.
7 Q. Do you think it would have been all the way
8 until April 11 of 1999, two years and -- two years and
9 some months later until you became an elder?
03:50:55PM 10 A. It may have. I don't think it was that far
11 out. But it may have.
12 Q. Let me ask you. Do you remember Rich Howe
13 preparing kind of a time line for the church council
14 when they came in 2000?
03:51:09PM 15 A. A time line for?
16 Q. For events that had happened with Thomas
17 Chantry.
18 A. I believe he did.
19 Q. Did you have any part in creating that
03:51:20PM 20 document, as you recall?
21 A. He may have asked me questions on it to just
22 reconfirm some points on it.
23 Q. Did you ever sign off on it saying it's
24 accurate?
03:51:31PM 25 A. No.

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1 Q. So as you sit here today, tell us again when
2 you think you became an elder at the church.
3 A. I thought it was around 1997 or 1998. I could
4 be wrong. I would have to -- I've probably got
03:51:47PM 5 something in my house that has a date on it.
6 Q. Just so you aren't worried that your memory is
7 bad, Mr. Howe did say some of his dates could be off.
8 Let me ask you this. Maybe this might put it
9 in perspective: Was it normal for Miller Valley to
03:52:04PM 10 have two elders and the pastor elder? Was that
11 typical?
12 A. For the most part, yes.
13 Q. Do you think it would have been unusual to go
14 over two years with only one elder aside from the
03:52:18PM 15 pastor?
16 A. It can happen. And it may have.
17 Q. Okay. Let me ask you now, sir, moving on a
18 bit in 19 -- did you -- in 1995, '96, '97, were you
19 aware of anything that had happened with Tom Chantry
03:52:41PM 20 and M J as of 1997?
21 A. I was not.
22 Q. Now, in 2000, the year 2000, did you become
23 aware of some allegations or some concerns that had
24 occurred with one or more children at the church?
03:53:09PM 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. I'm going to break this down and be real
2 specific. Did you first learn of C L -- of
3 a report coming to the church about C L
4 seeing some bruises on her son, D ?
03:53:29PM 5 A. What's the question? When did I?
6 Q. You said you became aware of some allegations,
7 some things that had happened that raised concerns with
8 some of the children at the church?
9 A. Correct.
03:53:42PM 10 Q. And to kind of break it down, was the first
11 thing you learned or how this came about was did you
12 learn that C L had seen some bruises on her
13 son, D ?
14 A. I was made aware of that. Yes.
03:53:58PM 15 Q. As a result of being told that, did you
16 participate in a meeting with Rich -- yourself and the
17 defendant, Tom Chantry?
18 A. This -- that all occurred later. Prior to
19 that it was just simply a phone call.
03:54:22PM 20 Q. I don't want to hear about what anybody said.
21 What phone call are you speaking of?
22 A. Bob Selph called me, and he had informed me.
23 Q. Is that how you learned about C seeing
24 the bruises?
03:54:40PM 25 A. That's it. I don't know that he used those

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1 words.
2 Q. As a result of what you learned, did you and
3 Rich go and confront Thomas Chantry about something
4 related to that? Let me be real specific. Do you
03:54:59PM 5 recall going with Rich Howe and confronting the
6 defendant as to whether he had spanked D L
7 bare bottom?
8 A. No. I don't recall Rich and I doing it.
9 Q. Let me see if I can show you something. I'm
03:55:31PM 10 going to show you what's marked Exhibit 71.
11 Ask you if you've ever seen that document
12 before?
13 A. If I have, I don't remember.
14 Q. You don't remember this being the time line we
03:56:04PM 15 just talked about that Rich prepared?
16 A. This all looks familiar. If I've seen it.
17 I --
18 Q. Okay. What I'm saying is you've seen this
19 document. I'm not asking any question about the
03:56:18PM 20 contents of it yet.
21 Do you recognize having seen this document
22 before as part of the documents that were kept in
23 reference to this investigation?
24 A. If I'd seen it, it was 18 years ago. I
03:56:31PM 25 probably did.

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1 Q. That's fine. You said earlier you might have
2 had some input in putting together a time line with
3 Rich Howe?
4 A. Yes.
03:56:45PM 5 Q. Turning to page 2 of that, do you see an entry
6 on October 18, 2000, where it talks about Rich meets
7 with fellow elder, Shorty, at 5:00 p.m. and both
8 confront Pastor Tom after the evening prayer meeting?
9 Do you see that notation?
03:57:15PM 10 A. Got you. Yes.
11 Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to
12 whether you went with Rich and confronted Tom about --
13 I want to be very specific here -- about a bare-bottom
14 spanking of D L ? Don't keep reading all the
03:57:39PM 15 other entries. I'm just asking about that one entry,
16 please.
17 A. I would have to agree with this. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember that now, confronting the
19 defendant about whether or not he had spanked D
03:57:54PM 20 L bare bottom? Just yes or no?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember whether or not he denied
23 spanking him bare bottom, not just the spanking but the
24 more particularly the spanking bare bottom?
03:58:15PM 25 A. I believe he did.

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1 Q. At some point, sir, did you have an additional
2 conversation with Thomas Chantry in the parsonage?
3 A. Yes. But that was prior to this.
4 Q. And that's what I was going to ask you. You
03:58:29PM 5 did have a separate conversation, just you yourself?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And it's prior to going with -- with Rich,
8 prior to going with Rich?
9 A. Yes.
03:58:41PM 10 Q. Do you remember in relation to when you and
11 Rich, according to the time line, went and spoke to the
12 defendant how much sooner it was that you speak to him
13 by yourself?
14 A. This was -- it wasn't much earlier than this.
03:58:59PM 15 I think it was maybe a Thursday that I got the phone
16 call from Bob Selph.
17 Q. Again, we don't want to go into what we were
18 told.
19 A. It was -- I'm thinking it was Friday, the
03:59:14PM 20 following day, that I went to the parsonage.
21 MR. SEARS: Your Honor, can we approach?
22 THE COURT: Sure.
23 (Sidebar conference.)
24 MR. SEARS: Judge, I think we let Rich Howe
03:59:30PM 25 liberally use this time line because of his memory

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1 problems. I'm watching this witness just glancing down
2 at it, essentially reading it back. He's not using it
3 in the way I would expect to use a document to refresh.
4 THE COURT: I would agree. Thank you.
03:59:55PM 5 (End of sidebar conference.)
6 MS. EAZER: I'm going to take back the
7 exhibit. If you think something might help you refresh
8 your recollection, let us know that. We want to try,
9 as hard as it is all these years later, to get your
04:00:07PM 10 recollection as best we can first just as it is today.
11 I was asking you when this meeting alone with
12 Tom took place, and I think you had said maybe a day
13 before. I don't want to guess what you said. Say it
14 again.
04:00:25PM 15 A. This was maybe a week before the -- whenever I
16 went to meet with Tom Chantry at the parsonage, I
17 believe Rich was either on his way or in his reel at
18 the time. He was not around.
19 Q. All right. Where -- to be clear, the reason
04:00:49PM 20 you go to the parsonage to speak to the defendant is
21 because you have learned of the bruises on D L
22 or the report of bruises on D L . Is that safe
23 to say?
24 A. That would be safe to say.
04:01:01PM 25 Q. And where do you go to meet with him?

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1 A. At the parsonage.
2 Q. And you remember what room you were in at the
3 parsonage?
4 A. The living room.
04:01:12PM 5 Q. As best you can remember, when you walk in,
6 what was the defendant's demeanor?
7 A. Sad, depressed, looking at the floor.
8 Q. Okay. Did he make a statement to you at that
9 time? Just yes or no first.
04:01:31PM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. As you sit here today, can you remember what
12 he said to you?
13 A. He said, I've done something and I cannot
14 recover from this.
04:01:44PM 15 Q. Okay. And did you go on to ask him what he
16 had done?
17 A. I did.
18 Q. And do you recall what he said?
19 A. He said, I spanked some kids, and I may have
04:01:56PM 20 taken it too far.
21 Q. All right. And did he specifically indicate
22 he'd spanked some kids at the church?
23 A. He did not.
24 Q. Do you remember talking to a detective about
04:02:11PM 25 this back in early 2016?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you remember telling the detective at that
3 time he specified it was some kids from church?
4 A. I don't recall if I -- well, maybe the way I
04:02:34PM 5 worded it was that that was -- that came out because I
6 was there for the express purpose of helping him
7 reconcile whatever he had done with C S and
8 D .
9 Q. As you sit here today, do you recall, though,
04:02:56PM 10 with a good measure of certainty that he said he
11 spanked some kids and he may have taken it too far?
12 A. Absolutely.
13 MR. SEARS: Asked and answered.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
04:03:09PM 15 Q. BY MS. EAZER: Now, did you have any further
16 conversation at that time?
17 A. After we had left C S 's house. Yes.
18 Q. I'm going -- I meant after the time of the
19 parsonage. Did you have any further conversation at
04:03:28PM 20 that time?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Now, subsequently did you go with the
23 defendant to C S L 's house?
24 A. Yes.
04:03:39PM 25 Q. Was the purpose of going there -- and I'm

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1 going to ask you not talk about what anybody says. Was
2 the purpose of going there to address the bruises
3 C had reported seeing on her son, D ?
4 A. Yes.
04:03:57PM 5 Q. During that meeting did you and C , one
6 or the other -- was Thomas Chantry confronted about
7 whether he had spanked D L bare bottom? Just
8 yes or no there?
9 A. Yes.
04:04:15PM 10 Q. All right. And, to your recollection at that
11 time, did he admit whether he had spanked D L
12 bare bottom? Just yes or no again.
13 A. That's --
14 Q. I'm talking bare bottom. I'll ask you about
04:04:34PM 15 spanking. Did he admit to bare-bottom spanking?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did he make an admission that he had spanked
18 D ?
19 A. If you want to include that in --
04:04:45PM 20 Q. Just yes or no.
21 A. No.
22 Q. He did not admit to spanking? Maybe I'm using
23 the wrong word. Did he admit to using discipline?
24 A. Yeah.
04:04:58PM 25 Q. Did he describe -- did he use a word to

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1 describe why he thought it was appropriate to
2 discipline? Just one word?
3 A. I acted proudly. That's exactly what he said.
4 Q. At any time during this entire meeting, did
04:05:20PM 5 Tom Chantry ever admit to bare-bottom spanking D
6 L ?
7 A. He did not.
8 Q. Now, as you left that night, did you have an
9 additional conversation with the defendant?
04:05:32PM 10 A. I did.
11 Q. Can you tell us what you said and what he
12 replied.
13 A. Going back to what he had said in the
14 parsonage, I had spanked some kids and may have taken
04:05:48PM 15 it too far. I asked him, are there any other families
16 or individuals that we need to go likewise visit? And
17 he said, no.
18 Q. Did you ask it in that manner or did you ask
19 if there were other any kids, since he had used the
04:06:11PM 20 word plural were there any other children he needed to
21 apologize to?
22 A. Correct. I did.
23 Q. And he said no?
24 A. He said no.
04:06:15PM 25 Q. At some point following this meeting at the

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1 L home, did it kind of come out in some form to
2 the rest of the congregation that Tom would be leaving
3 and it involved allegations or issues that involved
4 inappropriate discipline or something of that nature
04:06:36PM 5 with a child? Did it become known to the congregation?
6 A. Directly after this meeting?
7 Q. Not directly but at some point after.
8 A. At some point after. Yes.
9 Q. Do you recall as a result of that T and
04:06:52PM 10 P W coming forward with some information?
11 A. I know that they did. I don't know what the
12 time line was.
13 Q. Okay. Well, do you think you heard about
14 T and P W 's kids before the D L
04:07:15PM 15 incident came up?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So it's at some point after the D L
18 incident P and T come forward? Is that safe to
19 say?
04:07:24PM 20 A. I'm not sure if it was before Tom had left
21 town or --
22 Q. Not asking if it's after. Let me be a lot
23 more general. At some point after the meeting you had
24 with Tom about D L , did P and T W
04:07:47PM 25 come forward and report something involving their

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1 children?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And, to your knowledge, was that because they
4 had heard about the allegations with respect to D
04:08:02PM 5 L that they then came forward?
6 A. May well have been.
7 Q. Do you remember if you went with T W
8 and confronted the defendant about what T was
9 saying had happened to his children?
04:08:18PM 10 A. No. I don't believe I did.
11 Q. Now, after you took Tom over to the L
12 household, in the days following that did you have
13 further conversations with him?
14 A. There was surely conversations that we had
04:08:43PM 15 together with Rich and with Tom leading up to Tom's
16 leaving.
17 Q. Okay. And at some point you said Rich left
18 for Israel? And we heard from him a short time ago.
19 A. Yes.
04:08:58PM 20 Q. And you said you had discussions with him
21 leading up to Tom's leaving. When did Tom leave, if
22 you recall?
23 A. It wasn't long after all of this happened.
24 Within a week or two.
04:09:23PM 25 Q. Did you have any real notice that he was going

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1 to be leaving?
2 A. No.
3 Q. How did you learn he was leaving or had left?
4 A. He had left a note in the church office.
04:09:38PM 5 Q. All right. Now, Rich, Mr. Howe, testified
6 before -- Mr. Howe, who testified a little before you,
7 testified that he thought you and he had sat down and
8 actually discussed Tom's resigning and that he'd given
9 you notice.
04:10:05PM 10 Do you recall it going that way?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You remember he left a note at the church
13 office?
14 A. Correct.
04:10:13PM 15 Q. And did that catch you off guard?
16 A. Caught everybody off guard.
17 Q. What about that sticks in your memory about
18 the manner in which you found out he was leaving?
19 A. The term I used with Rich was this man, as
04:10:30PM 20 soon as he found out he was under church discipline,
21 jumped ship.
22 Q. Thank you. And did you and Rich have to kind
23 of scramble to put services in place the following
24 Sunday and address the congregation?
04:10:51PM 25 A. Absolutely.

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1 Q. At some point was it decided that an informal
2 church council would come in and see if they could
3 assist reconciling the issues you were facing involving
4 some of the families?
04:11:04PM 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Prior to this church council coming in, do you
7 recall having the various families write letters to
8 kind of outline some of the things that had happened
9 with their children?
04:11:16PM 10 A. I believe so.
11 Q. And, to your recollection, did L and L
12 J write such a letter?
13 A. I believe they did.
14 Q. Do you recall M J ?
04:11:29PM 15 A. I believe.
16 Q. How about T and P Welch?
17 A. I believe they did as well.
18 Q. C L ?
19 A. I believe so.
04:11:40PM 20 Q. Were those letters provided to the church
21 council?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Not going to get into a lot of details about
24 what happened when the council came down. Overall were
04:11:53PM 25 the children talked to by the council?

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1 A. I believe so. Yes.
2 Q. Were you present for any of those
3 conversations?
4 A. No.
04:12:02PM 5 Q. To your knowledge, did they talk to the
6 children alone?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were some of the family members and other
9 member of the congregation likewise talked to, to your
04:12:12PM 10 knowledge?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. At the end of this process -- and I guess I
13 should add they've already heard testimony so I'm
14 leaving out facts. To your knowledge, did this all
04:12:25PM 15 occur in December of 2000?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. At the end of this process were certain
18 recommendations made for everybody involved?
19 A. Yes.
04:12:34PM 20 Q. Including yourself and Rich?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the children and their families?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When all was said and done, did Thomas Chantry
04:12:50PM 25 come back to the church?

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1 A. No.
2 Q. Was it your belief that he wasn't going be a
3 pastor anywhere?
4 A. Yes.
04:13:03PM 5 Q. Do you believe that that belief was extended
6 to the parents or they were given some assurances that
7 that wasn't likely going to happen?
8 A. I believe that.
9 Q. Did that seem to you to give them some measure
04:13:17PM 10 of at least some satisfaction?
11 A. Uh-huh. Absolutely.
12 Q. In the end was there a conscious decision that
13 nobody was going to call the police?
14 A. I can't speak on everybody's behalf.
04:13:36PM 15 Q. Did anybody call the police, to your
16 knowledge?
17 A. I don't believe so.
18 Q. Now, after all this ended, did you get a sense
19 that it was a good resolution and everybody was
04:13:50PM 20 satisfied and just was ready to move on with life?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You said you took the defendant over to the
23 L home. Was that for purpose of him apologizing
24 or something of that nature?
04:14:11PM 25 A. No. No. It was to repent and ask for

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1 forgiveness. And neither of those occurred of course.
2 Q. Did you take him to any other children's
3 families?
4 A. I did not.
04:14:23PM 5 Q. Do you recall taking him to any families other
6 than the L family?
7 A. I do not.
8 Q. There was some testimony that you might have
9 gone with him to -- actually no. Maybe Rich took him
04:14:42PM 10 to some family members' home. Do you recall that?
11 A. I do not.
12 Q. Do you have any recollection of this man being
13 taken on a repentance tour or an apology tour to
14 numerous families of the church?
04:14:59PM 15 A. Absolutely not.
16 Q. Only one you can remember is the L s?
17 A. And it was just me.
18 Q. In 2015 did you become aware of another
19 individual, another adult, coming forward with
04:15:17PM 20 allegations of something that happened to him when he
21 was a child?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And speaking of J E ?
24 A. Yes.
04:15:25PM 25 Q. How did you first learn about that?

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1 A. It was a phone call to come over and meet with
2 the E .
3 Q. Did you know the E at that time?
4 A. Yes. I've known them all the years that
04:15:39PM 5 they've been part of the church.
6 Q. Now, we heard testimony from H that they
7 left the church in 2000 after the investigation. Did
8 you know them outside of the church?
9 A. I did.
04:15:50PM 10 Q. How did you know them?
11 A. He works on my office computers and I drilled
12 him a well.
13 Q. You share services, exchange services?
14 A. So to speak.
04:16:05PM 15 Q. Do you socialize a great deal with P and
16 H E ?
17 A. We talk maybe once a year.
18 Q. So you're not meeting them on weekends or
19 dinner?
04:16:16PM 20 A. No.
21 Q. How about back in 2015 when these allegations
22 about J came up? Were you social friends with them?
23 A. Just when we'd see them on Sundays.
24 Q. In 2015?
04:16:31PM 25 A. (Unintelligible speech).

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1 Q. They didn't go to your church?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. You get this call to go to their home. Do you
4 recall who it was that called you?
04:16:43PM 5 A. I don't. I don't know if P called me or
6 Rich called me. I don't. I just know we got the phone
7 call and agreed on a place and time to meet.
8 Q. Okay. Who else was at this meeting?
9 A. There was a police officer or detective or
04:17:06PM 10 something that was there. There was a pastor or
11 associate pastor that was there. There was J and
12 P and H , myself and Rich.
13 Q. Was Pastor Marley there with you guys?
14 A. Yes.
04:17:26PM 15 Q. When you say there was an associate pastor, do
16 you remember Dan Rydberg?
17 A. That sounds familiar.
18 Q. Do you remember the pastor being from
19 Cornerstone, where J went to church?
04:17:38PM 20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Likewise, you said there was a detective. To
22 your knowledge, was he there kind of not in his
23 official role but because he went to the same church as
24 J ?
04:17:49PM 25 A. I believe so.

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1 Q. During this meeting -- I'm not going to ask
2 specifically what people said. I will ask you, did
3 J make a statement or H make a statement about
4 what had happened to J ?
04:18:03PM 5 A. I believe it was -- actually, there was input
6 from all three of them -- H , from J and from
7 P .
8 Q. So what I'm trying to -- did you have an
9 understanding of what J was reporting on the one
04:18:21PM 10 hand?
11 A. Absolutely.
12 Q. Was there also discussion about what had
13 occurred back in 1995 to 2000 with the J s, the
14 W s and the bruises to D L ? Was there
04:18:33PM 15 discussion about that?
16 A. If there was, it was either before I got there
17 or after I left.
18 Q. Do you remember that part of the reason why
19 you were there was because this was going to be brought
04:18:46PM 20 to light again? Did that come up? We're going forward
21 to make a police report and these other incidents back
22 in '95 to 2000 are going to be part of the report?
23 A. I'm not aware of that part.
24 Q. All right. Do you know why you were there,
04:19:01PM 25 then, if J didn't attend your church?

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1 A. I believe that it was just because of the
2 association. Here's another case that has floated to
3 the surface.
4 Q. So at the end of that meeting, do you recall
04:19:19PM 5 whether a decision had been made that a police report
6 would be made?
7 A. That was the recommendation that I heard while
8 I was there.
9 Q. And do you know if at that meeting it was also
04:19:31PM 10 decided that someone from Miller Valley would be
11 providing any documents that the church still had about
12 the investigation back in 2000 to the police as well?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You don't remember that? Do you recall
04:19:49PM 15 someone later providing those documents to the Prescott
16 Police Department?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you recall who that was?
19 A. I believe it was Chris.
04:19:56PM 20 Q. Do you have a recollection whether that took
21 place shortly after that meeting at the E 's home?
22 A. Shortly after.
23 Q. A couple more questions for you, sir. This is
24 in 2015; correct?
04:20:12PM 25 A. Uh-huh.

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1 Q. Do you recall learning at some point that
2 Thomas Chantry had become a pastor again?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And do you recall when it was you first
04:20:26PM 5 learned that?
6 A. It was a long time before this.
7 Q. Okay. Fast forwarding to 2015, was there some
8 discussion about Tom Chantry applying to bring a church
9 he was pastoring in in Wisconsin into membership of
04:20:51PM 10 ARBCA?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you recall whether you learned about that
13 prior to the J E meeting or after the J
14 E meeting, if you recall?
04:21:05PM 15 A. It was prior to.
16 Q. And had you or one of the other elders at
17 Miller Valley Baptist Church taken any steps with
18 respect to Tom's application to bring his church into
19 ARBCA membership?
04:21:24PM 20 A. Yes. We wrote two letters, made some phone
21 calls and strongly encouraged them not to take Tom or
22 this church in as an ARBCA.
23 Q. Let me ask you a question. Was Miller Valley
24 a member of ARBCA at the time?
04:21:39PM 25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Was that a relationship that was important to
2 Miller Valley?
3 A. Absolutely.
4 Q. When you were writing these letters, do have a
04:21:48PM 5 recollection of writing letters before the whole J
6 E thing came up?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Why did you not want -- why did you not want
9 ARBCA to allow him and his church to become members?
04:22:07PM 10 I'm not asking for a real long explanation, just a
11 short one.
12 A. Because item No. 8 had not been met. The
13 requirement for him to seek repentance and the
14 forgiveness of all the children and the parents, that
04:22:24PM 15 had not occurred, which over the course of 15 years
16 evidenced that he was neither a Christian or --
17 Q. Okay. That's where I want you to stop. I
18 don't want you to voice any opinions. I just want to
19 know what you're reason was for writing this letters.
04:22:38PM 20 You said item No. 8. In the recommendations
21 made by the counsel, was item No. 8 that he go to the
22 families and that he repent, confess and ask for
23 forgiveness for what he had done?
24 A. Yes.
04:22:57PM 25 Q. In your belief -- only going to as why you

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1 were objecting to his admission in ARBCA, that was an
2 important thing?
3 A. 18 years it has not occurred.
4 Q. Not that it hadn't occurred, but that was
04:23:07PM 5 important to you? You felt that was important?
6 A. It was necessary.
7 Q. And was that the reason you were objecting to
8 him bringing his church into membership with ARBCA?
9 Just yes or no.
04:23:20PM 10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, after you write these letters, do you
12 know if his church was subsequently admitted?
13 A. It was.
14 Q. Do you know that happened before or after
04:23:36PM 15 J E came forward?
16 A. I believe that happened after J came
17 forward.
18 Q. Let me ask you this: I'm just asking yes or
19 no. After writing these letters saying you thought it
04:23:57PM 20 was wrong for his new church to become a member of
21 ARBCA, did you reach out to any of the families from
22 1995 to 2000 and say hey, you need to come forward with
23 those -- what happened back then and make a report now
24 so we can block Tom's church from getting into ARBCA?
04:24:19PM 25 A. Absolutely not.

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1 Q. Did you reach out to H or P E and
2 suggest that perhaps their son was a victim and they
3 should come forward?
4 A. Absolutely not.
04:24:33PM 5 Q. In the testimony that you have provided in
6 this case about the statements Tom Chantry made to you
7 about doing something he can't recover from, are you
8 saying that here today simply because you are angry
9 that Tom Chantry was pastoring again and was going to
04:24:54PM 10 become a member of ARBCA again?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Have you said anything here today, sir,
13 because you've got a grudge against Thomas Chantry?
14 A. Absolutely not.
04:25:04PM 15 MS. EAZER: All right. Thank you very much,
16 sir.
17 I have no further questions.
18 THE COURT: Thank you.
19 Given the time, do you want to begin now?
04:25:07PM 20 MR. SEARS: No, Judge. Next week --
21 THE COURT: Why don't we take our recess. Let
22 me remind you of the schedule. The next time we're in
23 trial is next Wednesday, August 8. So we're off until
24 then. Until then enjoy your week. And remember the
04:25:35PM 25 admonition.

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1 Thank you.
2 (Proceedings continued outside the
3 presence of jury.)
4 THE COURT: Anything we need to address before
04:26:39PM 5 we break, from the state's perspective?
6 MS. EAZER: No, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Sears?
8 MR. SEARS: I was not quick enough on my feet
9 and I didn't have a place -- answers to object. But I
04:26:52PM 10 heard him say that I believe my client was not a
11 Christian. And he told me the same thing. I wrote it
12 down in my notes from my defense interview.
13 I'm advising the Court and counsel for the
14 state that I'll think about it between now and next
04:27:09PM 15 Wednesday, but that may be a topic of
16 cross-examination. I think that opened that door as
17 well as making specific reference to a specific part of
18 this agreement that heretofore we had not brought
19 before the jury.
04:27:23PM 20 This is the recommendations of the church
21 council and expresses opinion about whether my client
22 complied with the provisions of that agreement.
23 I'm very mindful of the Court's prior views on
24 that. I think the state has opened the door.
04:27:41PM 25 THE COURT: I think there has been an opening

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1 of the door too. I think he said recommendation No. 8.
2 MR. SEARS: Yes.
3 THE COURT: If you wanted to pursue that, I
4 think he opened the door to recommendation No. 8. Ask
04:27:53PM 5 him about that.
6 And then as far as issue of not being a
7 Christian, that definitely came out without an
8 objection. That demonstrates under the law some type
9 of potential bias against the defendant. That's
04:28:06PM 10 something I think you can certainly pursue.
11 MR. SEARS: Thank you.
12 THE COURT: Another thing is that I know the
13 state hasn't rested yet. We haven't heard the Rule 20
14 yet. So we can start preparing this, because I don't
04:28:22PM 15 know if we're going to do a reading of instructions
16 next Friday, perhaps if you want to provide me with
17 your requested final instructions, please do that so I
18 can start putting them together.
19 MR. SEARS: Do you have a time in mind in next
04:28:43PM 20 week's schedule to settle instructions on the record?
21 THE COURT: We'll have to be flexible and see
22 where is a good break. I don't know when that's going
23 to be. We'll see.
24 If you want to get that to me. Please include
04:28:57PM 25 the discipline issue so I can include all of that.

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1 All right. Thank you. Anything else?
2 MR. SEARS: No, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Thank you, everyone. Enjoy your
4 week.
5 (The proceedings concluded.)
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1 STATE OF ARIZONA )
) ss: REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 COUNTY OF YAVAPAI )
3

4 I, Mina G. Hunt, do hereby certify that I am a

5 Certified Reporter within the State of Arizona and
6 Certified Shorthand Reporter in California.
7 I further certify that these proceedings were
8 taken in shorthand by me at the time and place herein
9 set forth, and were thereafter reduced to typewritten
10 form, and that the foregoing constitutes a true and
11 correct transcript.
12 I further certify that I am not related to,
13 employed by, nor of counsel for any of the parties or
14 attorneys herein, nor otherwise interested in the
15 result of the within action.
16 In witness whereof, I have affixed my
17 signature this 4th day of April, 2019.
18

19

20

21

22
/s/ Mina G. Hunt
23 -----------------------------------
MINA G. HUNT, AZ CR No. 50619
24 CA CSR No. 8335
25

Mina G. Hunt (928) 777-3095