ABC Board Hearing Transcript-Hank's Expansion/11-03-2010

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DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
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ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE CONTROL BOARD
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MEETING
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IN THE MATTER OF: :
:
Leeds The Way, LLC :
t/a Hank's Oyster Bar :Protest
1624 Q Street, NW :Hearing
Retailer CR :
License No. 71913 :
Case #10-PRO-00109 :
:
Substantial Change :
(Sidewalk Cafe) :
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November 3, 2010
The Alcoholic Beverage Control

Board met in the Alcoholic Beverage Control
Hearing Room, 1250 U Street, N.W.,
Washington, D.C., Chair Charles Brodsky,
presiding.
PRESENT:
CHARLES BRODSKY, Chairman
NICK ALBERTI, Member
DONALD BROOKS, Member
MIKE SILVERSTEIN, Member
CALVIN NOPHLIN, Member
ALSO PRESENT:
DAVID BAILEY, ABRA INVESTIGATOR
Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S
2 (1:12 p.m.)
3 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: We are back on
4 the record calling Case No. 10-PRO-00109,
5 Leeds The Way, LLC t/a Hank's Oyster Bar.
6 Parties forward, introductions, please.
7 MR. KLINE: Yes, good afternoon.
8 Andrew Kline, as a non-lawyer representative
9 for the licensee. Sitting to my left is Jamie
10 Leeds, who is principal of the licensee.
11 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Good afternoon,
12 everybody.
13 MR. HIBEY: Good afternoon, Mike
14 Hibey for the protestants and to my right is
15 Dave Mallof of the protestant group.
16 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Good afternoon,
17 gentlemen.
18 MR. HIBEY: Good afternoon.
19 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: This is a
20 Protest Hearing for a substantial change of
21 License 71913. Are there any updates for the
22 Board before we proceed?

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1 MR. KLINE: No, there are not.
2 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Kline, how
3 many witnesses will you be presenting?
4 MR. KLINE: Three.
5 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Hibey?
6 MR. HIBEY: Five.
7 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: I know that you
8 both filed your protest information forms and
9 we trust that you understand that there will
10 be no duplicative testimony from any witness
11 and that the witnesses must testify to things
12 that are on point towards the nature of the
13 protest.
14 There is an hour and a half to
15 present your case, which we will be keeping
16 track of the time for you. And we will let
17 you know when that starts to get close to
18 being a problem for you.
19 Mr. Kline, would you like to make
20 an opening statement?
21 MR. KLINE: Yes. Good afternoon,
22 Members of the Board, Chairman Brodsky. I'm

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1 here on behalf of Hank's Oyster Bar, which is
2 seeking approval of an expansion of its
3 premises, so that it would have authority to
4 expand into the building next door.
5 As the Board is aware, given that
6 these parties were before the Board several
7 weeks ago in a related matter, Ms. Leeds has
8 operated this establishment for,
9 approximately, five or six years without
10 incident, is well thought of in the
11 neighborhood and even based upon the testimony
12 of the protestants at the last hearing, has
13 not created a disturbance and is not likely to
14 create a disturbance in the neighborhood.
15 Approval of the expansion, as you
16 will hear from Ms. Leeds, will allow her to
17 accommodate different phase of business, in
18 terms of having -- accommodating private and
19 also allow the expansion of her already
20 popular and successful Hank's Oyster Bar.
21 So at the conclusion of the
22 hearing, we will be asking that the Board

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1 approve of the substantial change, which would
2 allow expansion into the building next door
3 and additional sidewalk seating on the
4 sidewalk. Thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Thank you very
6 much. Mr. Hibey?
7 MR. HIBEY: Good afternoon. I
8 know the Board is familiar with Hank's Oyster
9 Bar after our hearing just about less than a
10 month ago.
11 But what we are here on is the
12 expansion of Hank's Oyster Bar. So it really
13 doesn't have all that much to do with what
14 Hank's is doing now. This is going to be a
15 whole new operation which will more than
16 double in size the current space that Hank's
17 operates.
18 Hank's is currently one floor, 65
19 seats inside and 20 seats outside. They are
20 asking to become twice that size expanding to
21 a new address at 1622 Q Street into two floors
22 adding 80 new seats inside and 20 new seats

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1 outside.
2 This is a substantial change,
3 everyone knows that. But this substantial
4 change has enormous impacts on the peace,
5 order, quiet of the neighborhood, impacts on
6 the property values in the neighborhood and
7 impacts on parking and pedestrian, vehicular
8 safety. All of these impacts are adverse to
9 the neighborhood.
10 This is a residential neighborhood
11 with a number of ABC licensed businesses
12 already in the neighborhood, but this would be
13 one further, basically, a whole new license by
14 doubling its size. And it will directly cause
15 Hank's to abut a residence.
16 That resident is here to testify
17 today about the impacts of Hank's on his life,
18 his home and he will also testify how that
19 expansion will impact his property value and
20 his peace, order and quiet, as will other
21 neighbors who will come forward.
22 I guess the only thing we can add

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1 is we still do not have a problem with Jamie
2 Leeds. That's not what this is about. This
3 is about the location and whether the location
4 is appropriate.
5 So we understand that the location
6 has -- that 1622 Q Street is zoned to become
7 commercial, but what the Board is supposed to
8 do is look to see whether that -- the
9 expansion is appropriate.
10 And it's sort of an additional
11 step. Just because something is zoned
12 commercial doesn't mean it can be a bar, it
13 can be a restaurant. So we would ask the
14 Board to take a closer look and see what is
15 appropriate here.
16 And we think that after reviewing
17 the testimony, it will be clear that the
18 expansion of Hank's is not appropriate for
19 this locality. And that the substantial
20 change should be denied. Thank you.
22 much. Mr. Kline, do you want to call your

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1 first witness?
2 MR. KLINE: Yes. We will be
3 calling the Investigator.
4 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Is the
5 Investigator here?
6 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: Yes.
7 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Where are you?
8 Come on up here. Will you raise your right
9 hand?
10 Whereupon,
11 INVESTIGATOR DAVID BAILEY
12 was called as a witness by Counsel for the
13 Licensee and having been first duly sworn,
14 assumed the witness stand and was examined and
15 testified as follows:
17 much, sir. Just state your name for the
18 record.
19 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: Investigator
20 David Bailey.
21 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: And you work
22 for?

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1 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: I'm an
2 Investigator here with the Alcohol Beverage
3 Regulation Administration. I've been here for
4 four years.
5 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Thank you, sir.
6 Would you, please, give us your update?
7 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: Okay. I
8 conducted a report or Hank's Oyster Bar
9 regarding their substantial change, the
10 substantial change being protested by a group
11 of five or more.
12 On September 21st, I interviewed
13 Mr. Rieffel who stated that at the time the
14 establishment had a VA at the time, which
15 would not allow the substantial change to
16 occur. He also stated that the substantial
17 change which the business is asking for, which
18 is to expand, would affect their property
19 values of the area.
20 Hank's Oyster Bar is located in
21 the C-2-A Zone, this is a matter-of-right, low
22 density development, including office retail

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1 and all kinds of residential use to maximum
2 lot occupancy of 60 percent for residential
3 use.
4 There are, approximately, 22 ABC
5 licensed establishments in the area and
6 located within 1,200 feet of Hank's Oyster
7 Bar. One which holds a CX License, one holds
8 a B License, two will hold a Class CH License,
9 two hold a Class A, two hold a Class CT, two
10 hold a Class DR and the remaining 12 hold a
11 Class CR.
12 The establishment business hours
13 are until 11:00 a.m. to 12:00 a.m. and 11:00
14 a.m. to 1:00 a.m. on Friday and Saturday.
15 The parking in the area includes
16 there are meter parking on the 1600 Block as
17 well as the 1700 Block of Q Street, which are
18 limited to Zone 2, and are from Monday through
19 Friday from 7:00 a.m. to 8:30 p.m.
20 In addition, there is also parking
21 located in the 1600 Block and the 1500 Block
22 of 17th Street, which the parking there is

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1 Monday through Friday from 7:00 a.m. to 6:30
2 p.m.
3 There is a parking garage located
4 at 1616 P Street. There are, approximately,
5 200 spaces. They are open until 11:00 p.m.,
6 Sunday through Thursday, and 12:00 a.m.
7 Fridays and Saturdays.
8 Hank's Oyster Bar's current
9 location is located in the 1600 Block of Q
10 Street, which they have, in the location,
11 apartments and offices located across the
12 street as well as a few doors down. There are
13 also some residential homes.
14 They have included inside of
15 Hank's Oyster Bar is a kitchen, two bathrooms,
16 a number of seats inside and one bar area.
17 They also include a sidewalk cafe as well on
18 their premises.
19 I did conduct a regulatory
20 inspection there and I spoke with Ms. Leeds.
21 Ms. Leeds stated that, of course, she had been
22 in operation for, approximately, five years

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1 and that she had not had any major violations
2 during that time, saying that she only wishes
3 to expand her business in order to just
4 conduct business as a normal operator here in
5 D.C.
6 We visited the establishment,
7 approximately, 32 times from August 24th to
8 October 15. There were no reports of trash or
9 noise, but the Investigators did report that,
10 of course, there were hardly any spaces
11 available on Q Street, but spaces were
12 available on 17th Street, but that also the
13 establishment was also, as you would say, at
14 its capacity during the majority of their
15 visits.
16 We did pull the Metropolitan
17 Police Department Crime Analysis and
18 Intelligence Bureau records and they showed
19 two calls of service for the establishment and
20 there were -- none of those calls resulted in
21 any ABRA violations.
22 I also reviewed the possible --

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1 the proposed space for Hank's Oyster Bar's
2 expansion. It currently has not done any
3 construction to it, I guess because of them
4 not getting approved yet. But it is located
5 right next door. Next door to that, of
6 course, is some residential housing.
7 There is, approximately, two
8 floors. The second floor is almost designed
9 as a mezzanine at the time.
10 That's it.
11 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Board Members,
12 any questions of Investigator Bailey?
13 MEMBER BROOKS: Yes.
14 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Brooks?
15 MEMBER BROOKS: Is the proposed
16 expansion building, is it actually attached to
17 the residential building next door?
18 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: Yes, it is.
19 MEMBER BROOKS: It is attached to
20 it?
21 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: Yes.
22 MEMBER BROOKS: Okay. Thank you.

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1 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Any other
2 questions?
3 MEMBER NOPHLIN: Yes, please.
4 Investigator, did you go at various times to
5 visit the site?
6 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: Yes, yes.
7 Not only myself as well as other ABRA
8 Investigators during different shifts
9 monitored the establishment.
10 MEMBER NOPHLIN: Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Gandhi?
12 MEMBER GANDHI: Just expanding on
13 Mr. Brooks' question. Can you explain to me
14 the general area right next door? Is it
15 Hank's Oyster Bar? What is the space that
16 they want to expand into right now?
17 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: Okay. If
18 you are looking at Hank's Oyster Bar, directly
19 next door to the left is the proposed
20 location.
21 MEMBER GANDHI: It's to the left?
22 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: It's to the

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1 left.
2 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay.
3 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: It's
4 connected to Hank's Oyster Bar. Then right
5 next to that is the --
6 MEMBER GANDHI: It's connected to
7 what?
8 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: Right next
9 to the proposed location there that now is the
10 residential house.
11 MEMBER GANDHI: All right. Okay.
12 And past that residential housing, is there a
13 bunch of units or is it a bunch of townhouses
14 or what is it?
15 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: It's like a
16 row of residential housing units along that
17 street.
18 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. And on the
19 other side, what is there?
20 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: On the other
21 side of the street there is also residential.
22 Directly across the street is another ABC

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1 establishment and then there is residential
2 apartments and offices further as you -- of
3 course, again, you have the residential homes
4 going down the street.
5 MEMBER GANDHI: Would the
6 expansion unit be sharing a common wall with
7 the residents?
8 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: Yes, I
9 believe so. It would share a common wall.
10 MEMBER GANDHI: All right. Thank
11 you. I have no further questions.
12 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Board Members?
13 MEMBER NOPHLIN: One last
14 question, please, Mr. Chair. The parking
15 itself is meter parking?
16 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: Yes, it is
17 meter parking. Normally, the hours appear to
18 end about no later than, I think, 10:00.
19 MEMBER NOPHLIN: What about late
20 evening?
21 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: I mean, late
22 evening it's free after a certain time,

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1 depending on which area you park in. The
2 majority are 8:30 and others are like 10:00.
3 MEMBER NOPHLIN: The diagram show
4 where -- is there an alley directly behind the
5 site?
6 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: Is there an
7 alley directly --
8 MEMBER NOPHLIN: Or some kind of--
9 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: There is an
10 area -- when I look outside of the -- I went
11 outside the existing and it was like an alley
12 where they take their trash and everything,
13 too, out there.
14 MEMBER NOPHLIN: You didn't see
15 any noticeable trash or anything like that?
16 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: No, sir.
17 MEMBER NOPHLIN: The dumpster --
18 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: Not during
19 my visit. The only time I actually reviewed
20 the trash was during the daytime when they
21 were operating. I didn't have a view -- I did
22 not see any trash overflowing.

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1 MEMBER NOPHLIN: Okay. Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Go ahead.
3 MEMBER GANDHI: So right across
4 from -- it's on Q Street. What is exactly
5 across from the proposed space?
6 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: It is the --
7 I have a photo of it. It's like a residential
8 office. You mean directly --
9 MEMBER GANDHI: Is there any
10 retail?
11 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: I believe
12 there is also cleaners that is located right
13 across the street from there.
14 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. And there
15 is a dry cleaners, is that what you said?
16 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: I believe
17 there is a dry cleaners located, also, right--
19 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: -- all
20 connected.
21 MEMBER GANDHI: Are there any
22 other ABC establishments?

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1 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: Yes, there
2 is one ABC establishment that is located --
3 MEMBER GANDHI: Which is what?
4 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: -- directly
5 across. Java House.
6 MEMBER GANDHI: And what time does
7 that stay open until?
8 INVESTIGATOR BAILEY: I'm not sure
9 of their hours.
10 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. All right.
11 Thank you.
12 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Kline, any
13 questions?
14 MR. KLINE: Just a couple.
15 DIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. KLINE:
17 Q Good afternoon, Investigator.
18 A Good afternoon.
19 Q So just to expand on that, Java
20 House is directly across the street from the
21 building in which Hank's Oyster Bar wishes to
22 expand into. Isn't that correct?

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1 A Kind of to the left kind of, but
2 it is across the street.
3 Q Okay. And they do have an ABC
4 license?
5 A Yes.
6 Q All right. And in terms of
7 attached to residential buildings, what we
8 have is traditional row buildings going all
9 the way down Q Street, correct?
10 A That is correct.
11 Q All right. So and on 17th at the
12 end of the street, there are commercial
13 buildings, correct?
14 A On 17th?
15 Q I'm sorry. On Q and 17th from --
16 A Right, Q and 17th there is also
17 residential houses going to the west.
18 Q Going to the west, but we're
19 talking about the east side of 17th Street.
20 A Okay. The east side going from
21 16th down, from 17th to 16th, yes, there is
22 residential housing.

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1 Q Okay. But on the corner where we
2 are talking about is commercial from the
3 corner which is Trio, correct?
4 A Right.
5 Q And then two, Hank's Oyster Bar?
6 A Right.
7 Q And then the building next door is
8 now zoned commercial?
9 A The proposed location, right.
10 Q Which is the proposed location,
11 correct?
12 A Correct.
13 Q All right. And then on the
14 opposite side of the street, the opposite side
15 of Q Street from 17th Street heading east,
16 there is commercial from the corner to roughly
17 across the street from where this proposed
18 location is, right?
19 A It is commercial use. It is
20 commercial businesses from there to where the
21 residential housing starts.
22 Q Okay. And then the rest of Q

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1 Street is residential?
2 A Right, that is correct.
3 Q All right.
4 MR. KLINE: That's all I have.
5 Thank you.
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. HIBEY:
9 Q Do you have a copy of your report
10 with you?
11 A Yes, I do.
12 Q And the exhibits?
13 A Not the exhibits, no.
14 Q Okay.
15 MR. HIBEY: Well, I'm going to
16 show him a couple of pictures. Shall I show
17 him?
18 MR. KLINE: Sure, yes.
19 BY MR. HIBEY:
20 Q Mr. Bailey --
21 A Those are not my exhibits.
22 Q Oh, you have them?

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1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. Well, I'm going to show you
3 some pictures I have here and ask you just a
4 couple of quick questions.
5 Just take a look at these three
6 pictures and tell me if you recognize what's
7 in those pictures.
8 A The first picture that you handed
9 me is the proposed location of the expansion
10 for Hank's Oyster Bar.
11 Q Okay.
12 A The second picture shows the
13 Hank's Oyster Bar, the proposed location and
14 then the residential units that are next door.
15 And then the third picture just shows the
16 Hank's Oyster Bar and the proposed location.
17 Q Okay. The second one you were
18 just talking about.
19 A Yes.
20 Q In that picture, it depicts the
21 1624 is Hank's, 1622 is the proposed expansion
22 and 1620 is that white building next to 1622,

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1 right?
3 Q Okay. And 1622 and 1620 share a
4 wall?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q Okay.
7 MR. HIBEY: If I could mark those
8 and have those admitted, I'll be finished.
9 MR. KLINE: I don't have any
10 objection.
11 MR. HIBEY: Do you want me to take
12 them back and mark them or do you want to mark
13 them?
14 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Oh, yes, you --
15 MR. HIBEY: I haven't marked them.
16 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: -- can take
17 them back, mark them and then just provide
18 them.
19 (Whereupon, the document was
20 marked for identification as
21 Protestant Exhibit 1 and was
22 received in evidence.)

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1 MR. HIBEY: Okay. I don't have
2 any more questions. Thanks.
4 any more questions? Thank you, sir.
5 Mr. Kline?
6 MR. KLINE: Yes, I'll call --
7 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Your first --
8 MR. KLINE: Thank you. I'll call
9 to the stand Steve Combs.
10 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Combs,
11 raise your right hand for me.
12 Whereupon,
13 STEVE COMBS
19 Your witness, Mr. Kline.
20 MR. KLINE: Yes.
22 BY MR. KLINE:

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1 Q Would you state your name and
2 address for the record, please?
3 A My name is Steve Combs. Current
4 address is 11100 Mitchell Street, Edmonton,
5 Maryland.
6 Q All right. What's your
7 occupation?
8 A I'm a real estate broker.
9 Q As a real estate broker, you are a
10 licensed real estate broker?
11 A I am a licensed real estate broker
12 for the past 12 years and prior to that I was
13 a sales person for four years.
14 Q And for the four years you were a
15 licensed real estate agent?
16 A I was, yes, a sales person and
17 then I got the broker's license in Washington,
18 D.C., approximately, 12 years ago.
19 Q All right. And are you licensed
20 in any other jurisdictions?
21 A Currently Virginia and soon to be
22 Maryland.

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1 Q Okay. Now, in terms of your work,
2 is it concentrated in Maryland, Virginia, the
3 District?
4 A Washington, D.C.
5 Q Washington, D.C.?
6 A Yes.
7 Q All right. And do you have any
8 particular familiarity with this location?
9 A Intimately familiar with this
10 location.
11 Q All right. Tell the Board how.
12 A Yes. I lived, the proposed
13 building, 1622 Q Street, on the second floor
14 for about 13 years.
15 Q Okay. So would you say you know
16 this neighborhood pretty well?
17 A I know this neighborhood
18 intimately well, yes.
19 Q All right. And in your work as a
20 real estate broker and prior to that a real
21 estate sales person, what kind of things do
22 you do in terms of transactions and deals and

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1 what have you?
2 A I do a lot of restaurant leasing.
3 I do sales. Mostly leasing.
4 Q Okay. Now, in doing that, has
5 that caused you to become familiar with the
6 real estate values in the neighborhood where
7 this premises is located?
8 A Definitely.
9 Q All right.
10 MR. KLINE: Mr. Chairperson, I
11 would ask that Mr. Combs be qualified as an
12 expert.
13 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: For what
14 purpose?
15 MR. KLINE: For purposes of
16 opining on real estate values in the
17 neighborhood.
18 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Well, we are
19 not going to declare him an expert, but we
20 certainly believe he is probably a pretty
21 smart guy, so we will just take that under
22 advisement.

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1 MR. KLINE: Okay. That's fine.
2 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: But thank you
3 for asking.
4 MR. KLINE: All right. Thank you.
5 BY MR. KLINE:
6 Q Mr. Combs, given your experience
7 in the neighborhood and your expertise, do you
8 have an opinion concerning whether Hank's
9 Oyster Bar has had an impact on real estate
10 values in the neighborhood?
11 A In my opinion, it has had a
12 positive effect on real estate values in the
13 neighborhood, particularly on this block. And
14 I can tell you why I believe it's effect --
15 Q Yes, please, do.
16 A During the time I was living in
17 this building, the first floor, as you can see
18 from the exhibit I believe that was just put
19 up, it looked like a vacant storefront. It
20 has these warehouse doors that open up.
21 And unfortunately, it became like
22 the one place within, you know, a couple block

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1 radius where homeless people would hang out.
2 They used to hang out right in front of the
3 space and I was constantly shooing the
4 homeless people away from the door just
5 walking in my -- walking through my front
6 door.
7 And at one point about six and a
8 half years ago, I was actually assaulted by
9 one of these guys. If anyone noticed, you
10 probably -- the people that live in the
11 neighborhood, you probably know it was the guy
12 that had the cell phone water bottle who was
13 always standing, you know, just walking around
14 the neighborhood the one place where he felt
15 comfortable hanging out, because it looked
16 like a vacant storefront.
17 Q All right. Now, there was a
18 business there previously, correct?
19 A The --
20 Q In the space --
21 A -- next space I believe it was a
22 dry cleaner 30 years ago. Is that correct?

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1 Q No, you don't ask questions.
2 A Okay.
3 Q You have to answer our questions.
4 A All right. I believe that's what
5 it was.
6 Q Okay.
7 A About 30 years ago.
8 Q That's fine. Okay. If you know,
9 if you don't, that's fine.
10 A That's what I was told.
11 Q Okay. Now, you are aware that we
12 are here today for the Board to determine
13 whether Hank's Oyster Bar can expand into
14 1622, correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q All right. Now, given your
17 expertise and your experience, do you have an
18 opinion as to whether the expanded Hank's
19 Oyster Bar would have an effect on real
20 property values in the neighborhood?
21 A In my opinion, it would have a
22 positive effect because it is going to take

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1 away that vacant storefront look. And having
2 a vibrant, you know, Class A establishment
3 like Hank's Oyster Bar in there, in my
4 opinion, can do nothing but have a positive
5 impact on that neighborhood in pretty much
6 every sense of the word.
7 Q Okay.
8 A Including in the values of real
9 estate, including the adjacent property.
10 Q All right. Now, the adjacent
11 property you are talking about is the building
12 immediately to the east?
13 A 1620.
14 Q 1620.
15 A Right.
16 Q So it's also -- even though that
17 building is right next door, it is your
18 opinion that it would also have a positive
19 effect on the values there. Is that correct?
20 A In my opinion, it probably already
21 has had a positive effect on that building,
22 just having Hank's Oyster Bar there as opposed

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1 to the tenant that was there previously back
2 six years ago.
3 Q Okay. And now, what about if and
4 when the expanded Hank's opened, as I
5 understand it also from your testimony, that
6 that would have a positive effect?
7 A Oh, yes, definitely.
8 Q Okay. All right.
10 further questions.
12 CROSS-EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. HIBEY:
14 Q Good afternoon. You are a
15 commercial real estate broker, correct?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q You don't list residences,
18 correct?
19 A I don't do it on a regular basis.
20 I have done several residential transactions
21 in my career, but my focus is on commercial,
22 yes.

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1 Q When was the last time you listed
2 a residence?
3 A I have never listed a residence.
4 I have purchased residential buildings on
5 behalf of friends.
6 Q All right. So you have never
7 listed a residence?
8 A I've never listed one, no.
9 Q Okay. Have you ever appraised a
10 property?
11 A I'm not a licensed appraiser.
12 Q So you don't -- and you belong to
13 the Restaurant Association of Metropolitan
14 Washington, correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q All right.
17 MR. HIBEY: I don't have any other
18 questions.
20 Yes, Mr. Gandhi?
21 MEMBER GANDHI: So you used to
22 live in the proposed expansion space, correct?

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1 MR. COMBS: Correct.
2 MEMBER GANDHI: Did you own that
3 space?
4 MR. COMBS: I did not. I rented
5 it.
6 MEMBER GANDHI: You rented it.
7 And were you by any chance involved in the
8 transaction with Hank's Oyster Bar?
9 MR. COMBS: I was. I represented
10 Jamie Leeds on the restaurant lease going into
11 that location, yes.
12 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. So you have
13 a financial interest in this matter?
14 MR. COMBS: No, I don't. I am not
15 getting compensated in any way upon the
16 expansion of this property.
17 MEMBER GANDHI: But you are the
18 applicant's agent?
19 MR. COMBS: I was the applicant's
20 agent on the --
21 MEMBER GANDHI: As it relates to--
22 MR. COMBS: -- original -- no. On

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1 the original lease six years ago and I have
2 absolutely no involvement whatsoever in the
3 transfer.
4 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: In the original
5 space, original place.
6 MR. COMBS: The original lease.
7 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Not the
8 expansion space.
10 MR. COMBS: I do a lot of
11 restaurant -- I represent restaurants in D.C.
12 and I do a lot of restaurants. I broker the
13 leases and help negotiate the leases. And I
14 was involved six years ago and I have
15 absolutely nothing to do with the expansion
16 into the proposed premises.
17 MEMBER GANDHI: So you --
18 MR. COMBS: I'm not being
19 compensated whatsoever by that.
20 MEMBER GANDHI: But were you
21 compensated originally six years ago?
22 MR. COMBS: Six years ago, yes.

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1 MEMBER GANDHI: You were
2 compensated?
3 MR. COMBS: Yes.
4 MEMBER GANDHI: By the applicant,
5 correct?
6 MR. COMBS: I was compensated by
7 the owner of the property, George Mallios.
8 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. I have no
11 any other questions? Mr. Kline?
12 MR. KLINE: Yes.
13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. KLINE:
15 Q Mr. Combs, does your membership in
16 the Restaurant Association or your work in
17 connection with leasing restaurants in any way
18 color the opinions that you have given today?
19 A Not -- none whatsoever. My
20 opinions are really from living at this
21 building for 13 years.
22 Q All right.

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1 A And living in this neighborhood.
2 And I'll tell you I miss -- I really miss the
3 neighborhood.
4 Q All right. And are they also
5 based upon your experiences of doing
6 transactions in the neighborhood?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. In terms of your work, do
9 you represent primarily buyers, primarily
10 sellers, primarily landlords, primarily
11 tenants?
12 A About 50/50.
13 Q In terms of?
14 A 50 percent landlords, 50 percent
15 tenants.
16 Q Okay. So in terms of values, when
17 you represent the tenant, it is always better
18 if the values are lower, correct?
19 A Well, we try -- yes, sure. We try
20 to negotiate as low as possible rental rate as
21 we can for our clients, yes.
22 Q Okay. And when you are

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1 representing a landlord, it's always better
2 that the values are higher, correct?
3 A Correct.
4 MR. KLINE: Thank you. I have no
7 MR. HIBEY: I have no other
8 questions.
10 much. Mr. Kline, your next witness?
11 MR. KLINE: Ellen Kirsh, please,
12 to the stand.
13 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Hello.
14 MR. KIRSH: Hi.
15 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Could you,
16 please, raise your right hand for me?
17 Whereupon,
18 ELLEN KIRSH

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2 much. Your witness.
3 MR. KLINE: Yes.
5 BY MR. KLINE:
6 Q Would you state your full name and
7 address for the record, please?
8 A Yes. My name is Ellen Kirsh, K-I-
9 R-S-H. And I live at 1743 Q Street, N.W.
10 Q And how long have you lived at
11 1743 Q Street?
12 A About a year and a half.
13 Q All right. And where did you live
14 prior to that?
15 A Before that I lived at 1730 18th
16 Street and I lived there for about a year and
17 a half.
18 Q Okay. So you have been in the
19 District, approximately?
20 A About three years.
21 Q Three years. Okay.
22 A I little bit more than that.

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1 Q Okay. And prior to that, where
2 did you live?
3 A I lived in Potomac, Maryland.
4 Q All right. Now, why did you move
5 to the District of Columbia?
6 A I moved to the District because we
7 had raised our children in Potomac in a large
8 house and they had all left and gone to
9 college and were out on their own and it was
10 my husband and myself in a big empty house.
11 And we found ourselves very drawn to the city
12 life. We were coming all the time to the
13 District for theater or restaurants, movies,
14 everything.
15 And so we decided we would try
16 life in the District. So, first, we rented a
17 house on 18th Street and we loved living
18 there. And then we found a house that we
19 bought on Q Street.
20 Q Okay. Now, and how far are you
21 from Hank's Oyster Bar?
22 A Hank's is close to the corner of

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1 the next block.
2 Q Okay.
3 A We are about, I would say, two-
4 thirds of the way down the block from 17th
5 Street.
6 Q Okay. And that --
7 A Towards 18.
8 Q All right. So that would be west,
9 if you know?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay. And what is it you said you
12 were attracted to the city, was there anything
13 about this particular neighborhood that
14 attracted you to this neighborhood?
15 A Well, it's a beautiful
16 neighborhood. And it is one that, I think,
17 has a sense of community and also is -- it's
18 a place where you can live and also enjoy
19 neighborhood amenities very easily.
20 I walk everywhere and I take
21 advantage of a lot of things that are right at
22 my front door.

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1 Q All right. And when you say
2 amenities, what kind of amenities are we
3 talking about?
4 A Well, certainly restaurants, some
5 shopping, some theaters. I mean, I would
6 define the neighborhood maybe more broadly for
7 something like theaters a few blocks away. I
8 walk to the Whole Foods on P Street. At 15th
9 I go to the gym at 15th and P.
10 So, you know, pretty much large
11 amounts of what I do in my daily life are in
12 my neighborhood.
13 Q And is Hank's Oyster Bar one of
14 the amenities, one of the places that you are
15 talking about?
16 A Absolutely. I think, my personal
17 opinion is that, it is a -- it is the best
18 restaurant in our neighborhood. And that it
19 is also a very positive thing to have down the
20 street from me. I treasure it.
21 Q All right. Now, you know that we
22 are here today to talk about approval of a

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1 possible expansion of Hank's Oyster Bar,
2 correct?
3 A I do, yes.
4 Q First of all, in your experience,
5 has Hank's Oyster Bar ever been a disturbance
6 in any way in the neighborhood?
7 A Never that I know about.
8 Q Okay. In terms of an expanded
9 Hank's Oyster Bar, do you have concerns that
10 expansion of the facility may create some sort
11 of disturbance in the neighborhood?
12 A I do not expect that to happen,
13 no.
14 Q Okay. And why not?
15 A Because I think that the -- that
16 Hank's has operated, to my knowledge, in a
17 very responsible way in the neighborhood.
18 They -- I don't think they have ever done
19 anything to disrupt anybody's life or
20 anybody's just general enjoyment of the
21 neighborhood. And to the contrary, they have
22 added to it.

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1 They have -- they are there with
2 good food and a nice place to go. And, you
3 know, I think it is -- they have been a
4 positive. They haven't been a negative in the
5 neighborhood, in my view.
6 Q Okay. Now, what about in terms of
7 parking? Do you have any opinion as to
8 whether they have had or will have a negative
9 effect on parking requirements in the
10 neighborhood?
11 A I think that parking is -- I mean,
12 I walk there. So I'm going to give you my
13 opinion from a little bit of a distance on
14 that.
15 Q Okay.
16 A But it seems like parking is
17 generally an issue everywhere you go in
18 Washington and that there are places to park,
19 but you have to look for them sometimes. And
20 I have never heard of anyone not being able to
21 find a place to park if they want to go there.
22 I mean, I have friends from

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1 Potomac who come to see me on Q Street and
2 sometimes it takes them a little while to find
3 a parking spot, but they find one. And I
4 wouldn't expect it to be any different if
5 there were, you know, another chunk of seats
6 at Hank's. I don't think it would be that big
7 of a deal.
8 Q Okay. Now, how often do you get
9 to the restaurant?
10 A I go, I would say, at least twice
11 a month, maybe more. It depends on the month.
12 Q Do you have knowledge of who the
13 clientele is or other people there?
14 A I would say I have a rough
15 impression of the people that are there, yes.
16 Q Okay. So give the Board your
17 impression of the people there.
18 A Well, I think a lot of people from
19 the neighborhood patronize the place. There
20 are many, many people that seem to walk there
21 from around where I live. But there are also
22 people that come from other places there.

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1 I mean, we have just by chance met
2 people who are tourists in Washington. The
3 restaurant is well-reviewed on a lot of
4 national kinds of restaurant review places.
5 And so occasionally we have found ourselves
6 sitting next to somebody who is from far away.
7 And I think there is a good cross-
8 section of people. We have met convention
9 people that have gone to the Convention Center
10 and have showed up there. And, you know, I
11 would say I don't know exactly what the
12 percentage is, but it's a wide variety of
13 people who go there.
14 Q Now, it sounds like a number of
15 the people that you have met there that are
16 from out of town are otherwise staying
17 somewhere in the District. Is that a fair
18 assessment?
19 A I would guess.
20 Q Okay.
21 A I would guess.
22 Q All right.

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1 MR. KLINE: All right. I don't
2 have any further questions of the witness, at
3 this time. Thank you.
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. HIBEY:
7 Q Good afternoon.
8 A Hi.
9 Q You said you lived at -- you
10 currently live at 1743 Q Street?
11 A That's --
12 Q Q Street, correct?
13 A -- correct. Yes.
14 Q Okay. That is further away from
15 Hank's than say 1709 Q Street, right?
16 A Further away than 1709? Yes, it
17 is further away. It's further down the block
18 to the west.
19 Q Okay. You live, approximately, a
20 full block away from Hank's, right?
21 A No, I would say about -- I think
22 I'm about two-thirds of the way down the

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1 block. I'm -- I mean, it's not -- it's a
2 little more than halfway down the block, but
3 there is a whole big condo building that is
4 between me and 18th Street. It is quite a
5 long building. So I don't know exactly where
6 I am in the block.
7 Q Okay.
8 A But I'm guessing I'm probably two-
9 thirds of the way down the block.
10 Q Okay. Now, 600 or 700 feet away
11 from Hank's? Is that right?
12 A I don't know that. I'm really bad
13 at that. I don't think I should guess.
14 Q Who do you live with there at 1743
15 Q Street?
16 A I live with my husband.
17 Q Okay. And you said that you think
18 parking is an issue in the neighborhood. Is
19 that right?
20 A I think parking is more
21 challenging than it used to be in Potomac
22 without a doubt. But I have not ever met --

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1 I have never heard of anybody who couldn't
2 eventually find a place to park.
3 Q Okay. Does your daughter work at
4 Hank's?
5 A I have a daughter who in the past
6 had worked at Hank's, yes.
7 Q But she doesn't work there any
8 more?
9 A No, she is in Italy.
10 Q Okay.
11 MR. HIBEY: Thank you.
13 any questions?
14 MEMBER GANDHI: Just a quick one.
15 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Yes, sir, Mr.
16 Gandhi?
17 MEMBER GANDHI: You had a daughter
18 that worked at Hank's? What did she do there?
19 MR. KIRSH: She is a chef. I have
20 a daughter who is a chef and she was, I think
21 she was either -- I think she might have
22 started out as a line cook and then been a

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1 sous chef there. I'm not exactly sure. She
2 has had a few chef-related jobs.
3 MEMBER GANDHI: A few chef-related
4 jobs?
5 MR. KIRSH: Yes.
6 MEMBER GANDHI: At Hank's?
7 MR. KIRSH: No.
8 MEMBER GANDHI: Oh, just
9 elsewhere?
10 MR. KIRSH: Just -- yes, this was
11 quite a while ago that she worked there.
12 MEMBER GANDHI: When? So quite a
13 while ago?
14 MR. KIRSH: Yes.
15 MEMBER GANDHI: How long ago?
16 MR. KIRSH: And I don't really
17 remember the exact dates.
18 MEMBER GANDHI: You don't remember
19 the exact dates?
20 MR. KIRSH: No, I don't. But I
21 would say maybe at least 18 months ago or
22 maybe longer than that.

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1 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. Do you go
2 to Hank's a lot?
3 MR. KIRSH: I go with some
4 frequency, yes.
6 Thank you. I have no further questions.
7 MR. KIRSH: Okay.
9 any other questions? Hang on one second, let
10 me just check with Board Members.
11 MR. KIRSH: Sure, yes.
13 any other questions?
14 MR. KIRSH: Sorry.
15 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Kline?
19 MR. HIBEY: No other questions.
21 much.
22 MR. KIRSH: Thanks.

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1 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Thanks for
2 moving into the District.
3 MR. KIRSH: Sure.
4 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Love that. Mr.
5 Kline?
6 MR. KLINE: Yes. I call to the
7 stand Jamie Leeds.
8 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Hello, Ms.
9 Leeds.
10 MS. LEEDS: Hi.
11 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Raise your
12 right hand for me.
13 Whereupon,
14 JAMIE LEEDS
20 much. Your witness, Mr. Kline.
21 MR. KLINE: Yes, thank you.

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1 BY MR. KLINE:
2 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Leeds.
3 A Hi.
4 Q I had to review all of your
5 testimony from the last hearing, but you are
6 the shop owner of Hank's Oyster Bar, correct?
8 Q All right. And we are here about
9 an expansion of Hank's Oyster Bar?
10 A Yes.
11 Q All right. Why is it that you
12 desire to expand the premises?
13 A Well, I was given the opportunity
14 to expand.
15 Q Okay.
16 A And so I'm taking advantage of
17 that.
18 Q And what do you think that will do
19 for your business?
20 A I think it will help the business
21 grow and I think it will help the customers
22 that are waiting for tables to have a place to

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1 sit down and not have so many people waiting
2 for so long.
3 Q Okay. And when people wait, where
4 do they wait?
5 A They wait on the sidewalk --
6 Q All right.
7 A -- normally or in the area next
8 door.
9 Q So if you were allowed to expand,
10 those people would no longer be on the
11 sidewalk? Is that a fair assumption?
12 A Most likely.
13 Q Okay.
14 A Yes.
15 Q Now, in terms of amenities that
16 might be available in the event of an
17 expansion, is there any other opportunities
18 that provides in terms of dining in the
19 establishment or events or anything else?
20 A Well, I plan to have a private
21 dining room, which I have gotten a lot of
22 requests for small parties, private parties,

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1 you know, of 20 or so people. So I'll be able
2 to accommodate that.
3 Q And what happens now when you get
4 a request for private dining?
5 A I pretty much have to turn it
6 away.
7 Q Okay. And where in the
8 establishment will -- well, where in the
9 combined premises would the private dining be
10 offered?
11 A It would be in the mezzanine.
12 Q In the mezzanine?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay. And that's the mezzanine of
15 the building next door?
16 A Correct.
17 Q All right.
18 MR. KLINE: May I approach the
19 witness?
20 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: You may.
21 MR. KLINE: Okay.
22 MR. THOMAS: Andrew, could you

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1 bring me my glasses?
2 MR. KLINE: Yes.
3 BY MR. KLINE:
4 Q I'm going to hand you your
5 glasses.
6 A Thank you.
7 Q And also show you what we are
8 going to mark as Licensee 1 and ask you if you
9 can identify what that is.
10 A This is the architect's plan/
11 design for the new space for the expansion.
12 Q Okay.
13 (Whereupon, the document was
14 marked as Licensee Exhibit 1 for
15 identification.)
16 BY MR. KLINE:
17 Q And this has changed somewhat
18 slightly from the initial submission?
19 A I don't remember the initial
20 submission.
22 A We have been tweaking it, yes.

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1 Q All right. But this reflects your
2 current intents with respect to the space?
3 A Yes.
4 MR. KLINE: If I may, I would like
5 to tender this to the Board. First of all, I
6 would like to move it as Licensee Exhibit 1.
7 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Any objections,
8 Mr. Hibey?
9 MR. HIBEY: No.
10 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So moved.
11 (Whereupon, the document marked as
12 Licensee Exhibit 1 was received in
13 evidence.)
14 BY MR. KLINE:
15 Q And if you could just walk the
16 Board through the drawing that has been
17 labeled as Licensee's Exhibit 1 and tell them
18 what is depicted on that drawing?
19 A Sure. So on the bottom section,
20 first, labeled first floor plan, you walk into
21 the door and we will have a vestibule there.
22 You will walk in, you will have a small bar

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1 and some tables. Continue walking through and
2 you have a ADA-compliant bathroom.
3 And then you walk to your right
4 and you go -- that's the entrance to the
5 existing restaurant now. So there will be an
6 opening, there will be a doorway between the
7 two spaces.
8 Q Is that where closet is marked on
9 the --
10 A Yes.
11 Q -- on the door in there.
12 A You see a doorway in front of the
13 closet, that goes into the existing space.
14 You can also walk back and have a few more
15 seats back toward -- behind the ADA bathroom
16 there.
17 Then you walk up the stairs and
18 there is a mezzanine floor, which is the
19 second floor plan. And you walk up and you
20 walk up to your -- a few more steps to your
21 left and you see that's where the private
22 dining room would be. It has actually got 18

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1 seats there, so it's 18 seats for the private
2 dining room.
3 Walk down back again and have
4 another bathroom, another couple of tables and
5 then like a cold station for producing cheese
6 and charcuterie and cold foods, oysters, and
7 a couple of seats there.
8 And then a walk-in, another walk-
9 in and ice machine. And then you walk out the
10 back and you have some -- a couple of tables
11 in the back with a trellis.
12 Q Okay.
13 A And that's the garbage, the
14 designated garbage area to the left.
15 Q And what's on what -- on which
16 level? That's what is labeled the second
17 floor?
18 A The second floor plan. The
19 building is a little strange, as such that
20 when you come into the front, you come in on
21 Q Street, so you walk into the Q Street, it's
22 the ground level. And then you walk up the

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1 mezzanine and you walk out the back and it is
2 ground level to the back, because the building
3 is on a slant. So it's kind of strange that
4 way, but that's the way the building is built.
5 Q Okay. So that's why the trash
6 room is shown on the second floor?
7 A Yes. It's not really the second
8 floor when you are in the back.
9 Q Okay.
10 A It's right adjacent to the alley.
11 Q Now, in terms of the method and
12 manner of operation and what you intend to do
13 in the new space, let's start with service of
14 food. Do you intend to do anything different
15 in terms of making food available in the new
16 space and the hours that it will be available
17 and the marketing of food?
18 A No. I intend to serve food and
19 food and drink.
20 Q All right. Now, you testified
21 last time that you are a chef, correct?
22 A Yes.

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1 Q All right. Is it your intention
2 to offer any entertainment in the new space?
3 A No.
4 Q Is it your intention to have any
5 dancing in the new space?
6 A No.
7 Q So in essence, it will be a
8 continuation of what you are doing in the
9 present Hank's Oyster Bar?
10 A Correct.
11 Q All right.
12 MR. KLINE: Mr. Chairman, I'm
13 going to ask, at this time, that the Board
14 take notice and adopt the findings of fact
15 that it made in the order dated today in
16 connection with termination of the voluntary
17 agreement, in that many of those findings are
18 irrelevant in terms of the current effects of
19 the establishment on peace, order and quiet,
20 because there was quite a bit of testimony
21 about that at the last hearing and that will
22 certainly short-circuit in terms of what we

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1 have to put on.
2 I had originally intended to
3 proffer pages from the transcript, but it
4 seems to be now that we have the order, we can
5 just rely on the findings in the order, as
6 those findings have already been made.
7 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Any particular
8 part of it, Mr. Kline, you want us to take
9 administrative notice of or just the whole kit
10 and caboodle?
11 MR. KLINE: I think in terms of
12 findings, it is easier just the whole kit and
13 caboodle and when the Board makes a decision,
14 the Board can decide which of those findings
15 might be relevant to the conclusions of law in
16 this case.
17 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Yes, that's no
18 problem, Mr. Kline. We will take
19 administrative notice of our Board order and
20 also of the transcripts of the proceedings,
21 too.
22 MR. KLINE: Okay. With that, I

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1 have no further questions of the witness.
3 much. Mr. Hibey?
4 MR. HIBEY: Yes.
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. HIBEY:
7 Q Good afternoon.
8 A Hi.
9 Q Hi, I have a couple questions
10 about this. I think it is Defense Exhibit 1.
11 MR. KLINE: Licensee's Exhibit 1.
12 MR. HIBEY: Licensee's Exhibit 1.
13 BY MR. HIBEY:
14 Q Yes, just a couple of questions
15 about this. First, the second floor plan in
16 the front of that portion where it says open
17 to below.
18 A Yes.
19 Q What does that mean?
20 A Well, that's the mezzanine. It's
21 a mezzanine level, so it is kind of like a
22 balcony. So that is open to the first floor.

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1 So when you walk in, like, you know, when you
2 are walking in the front door --
3 Q Yes.
4 A -- you look up and you can see a
5 balcony.
6 Q Okay.
7 A And that's where.
8 Q And then behind the balcony is the
9 banquet seating area? Is that right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay. And then on the back of the
12 second floor, it's described as patio seating
13 with trellis seating.
14 A Yes.
15 Q Is that outdoor space?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And how big is that outdoor space?
18 A Square footage wise?
19 Q Yes.
20 A Well, it accommodates these seats.
21 I can't give you the square footage. I
22 wouldn't be exact -- I wouldn't be able to

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1 give you the square footage.
2 Q Okay. How many seats do you plan
3 on having on the patio?
4 A It shows here, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12,
5 14, 16, 20.
6 Q 20. And which side of this
7 drawing, I guess, if I'm looking at the paper
8 on the top end is the -- I guess, is that the
9 border side for 1620 Q Street?
10 A The very top --
11 Q If that makes sense.
12 A -- wall?
13 Q Yes.
14 A So this right here?
15 Q Yes.
16 A It's the border.
17 Q Okay. And now down below on the
18 first floor plan.
19 A Yes.
20 Q What does unexcavated mean?
21 A It means not dug out.
22 Q Is it part of 1622 right now?

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1 A Yes.
2 Q And what's that?
3 A It's just like it's filled in.
4 Because of the way the building is built, it's
5 like the first floor is almost like -- should
6 be like a basement level, but it's really not,
7 because it's on a hill.
8 So the back part of that floor is
9 dirt.
10 Q Okay.
11 A It is built in.
12 Q Okay. And towards the front of
13 the first floor plan, your drawing shows two
14 entrances. Is that correct?
15 A That's the entrance to go upstairs
16 to -- there is an apartment on the top floor
17 of the building.
18 Q Okay. So there is only going to
19 be one entrance into 1622 Q Street?
20 A Correct.
21 Q And it will be the one closer to
22 1620 Q Street?

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1 A Correct.
2 Q And then what are the -- there is
3 a drawing at the front of the first floor
4 plan. It looks like there are some doors
5 opening outward onto a sidewalk cafe. What is
6 that?
7 A On the bottom drawing or top?
8 Q The bottom one, the first floor
9 plan.
10 A Those are the French doors that I
11 have at Hank's, the existing Hank's now. It
12 is going to mimic the same facade.
13 Q Okay. French doors?
14 A Yes.
15 Q All right. Now, you have had
16 these plans since when?
17 A Well, we have been working on them
18 for, I don't know, six weeks.
19 Q Okay. Is it not dated, the
20 document, Licensee's Exhibit 1?
21 A I don't see a date.
22 MR. KLINE: If it is, he is

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1 younger than I am, because I can't read it.
2 BY MR. HIBEY:
3 Q The right side, it looks like it
4 says date 6/9/10, layout for review. Do you
5 see that?
6 A No.
7 Q Do you want me to show you?
8 A No, I believe you.
9 Q Okay. So you have had this since
10 about June, right?
11 A We first met in June to talk about
12 it, but that's not when this was done, when
13 this was finalized. This is a schedule. I
14 think what you are seeing is like a schedule
15 of dates of meetings. We just finalized this
16 just like I said a couple weeks ago. It takes
17 a while. You know, we've been talking about
18 it for a while.
19 Q When you applied for a substantial
20 change, you asked for 80 additional seats
21 indoors, correct?
22 A I believe so, yes, or was that

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1 total outdoor and indoor? I don't recall. I
2 mean, the plan only allows for 60 seats inside
3 and 20 outside, out front and then 20 out
4 back. Hold on, hold on. 64 inside, 20 out
5 front and 20 out back.
6 Q 20 out front and 20 out back.
7 Okay. So that's a total of 104 new seats?
8 A Correct.
9 Q Okay. But when you initially
10 applied for the change, you asked for -- it
11 says "The added indoor seating will be no more
12 than 80 seats."
13 A Indoor.
14 Q Right.
15 A Yes.
16 Q Okay. And that you will be
17 expanding your sidewalk cafe to include an
18 additional 20 seats, right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Okay. So you didn't ever make a
21 request for a substantial change to include
22 rear patio seating, did you?

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1 A No.
2 Q And you did never make a
3 substantial change request for French doors,
4 did you?
5 A I didn't think that I had to.
6 There is -- he is going to be offering
7 historic -- it's an historic building, so
8 there is going to be proposing a package, a
9 facade package, which will include the French
10 doors for approval.
11 Q Well, on the first floor plan, you
12 have drawn up a bar near the front of the
13 first floor. Is that right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q How many seats at that bar?
16 A I think it is ten. Nine.
17 Q Okay. And how far back from the
18 entrance is that bar?
19 A It's like 3 feet, 4 feet.
20 Q And the bar will back up to the
21 shared wall between 1622 Q and 1620 Q, right?
22 A Yes.

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1 Q With that --
2 A This bar will be along there, so
3 there won't be people standing there.
4 Q Right. The bar will be there?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. So with this substantial
7 change you are asking for, you're going to
8 have a lot more people coming to Hank's,
9 right?
10 A I hope so.
11 Q Okay. And you have analyzed the
12 impacts of these additional people coming to
13 Hank's, right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. What analysis have you
16 done?
17 A Well, you know, no official
18 analysis has been done, but I believe that in
19 talking to people and talking to the neighbors
20 and asking people what they think, if they
21 think I should expand and would you like to
22 see, you know, more Hank's, more of, you know,

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1 what's there already, everybody says yes,
2 definitely.
3 Q All right. And then have you
4 analyzed the impacts of the yes, definitely,
5 let's expand?
6 A What do you mean? Define analyze.
7 Q Well, have you analyzed how you
8 are going to handle security for all these
9 additional people?
10 MR. KLINE: Objection. That
11 presumes security --
12 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
13 MR. KLINE: -- is needed for the
14 restaurant.
15 THE WITNESS: Security?
16 MR. HIBEY: It's a question
17 whether she has analyzed it.
18 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: It's not --
19 we're not going to allow the question.
20 MR. HIBEY: Okay.
21 BY MR. HIBEY:
22 Q Well, have you analyzed what you

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1 are going -- how you are going to handle
2 parking for all these additional people?
3 A Well, the way we handle it
4 currently, which is that we send them to the
5 lot on P Street.
6 Q Okay. Have you hired a sound
7 engineer or anyone to do a study of the noise
8 that this additional expansion will cause?
9 A No.
10 Q Okay.
13 any questions?
15 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Brooks?
16 MEMBER BROOKS: Yes, a couple of
17 questions. I'm looking at the Investigator's
18 report and he has exhibits, pictures.
19 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
20 MEMBER BROOKS: And one is Exhibit
21 19. Do you have --
22 MS. LEEDS: I don't have that.

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1 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: You need to
2 show here the picture probably.
3 MEMBER BROOKS: Okay.
4 MS. LEEDS: Yes, yes.
5 MEMBER BROOKS: You know that,
6 okay. And looking at the outside area, of
7 course --
8 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
9 MEMBER BROOKS: -- now, for your
10 patio, how close will you be to your
11 neighbor's front steps?
12 MS. LEEDS: You know, feet-wise,
13 probably -- well, there is a wall there.
14 MEMBER BROOKS: Exactly.
15 MS. LEEDS: There is that brick
16 wall.
18 MS. LEEDS: That half brick wall.
20 MS. LEEDS: And then they are up.
21 So they are kind of elevated and then from
22 down from there maybe 5 feet.

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1 MEMBER BROOKS: 5 feet?
2 MS. LEEDS: 5 or 6 feet.
3 MEMBER BROOKS: From the front
4 steps, yes, okay. And the other thing I was
5 looking at in the report on page 4, and I'll
6 read it, the last sentence of the
7 Investigator's report.
8 He says "Ms. Leeds further stated
9 that she only wants to grow her business and
10 is willing to work with the community."
11 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
12 MEMBER BROOKS: So what were you
13 thinking as far as working with the community?
14 MS. LEEDS: Well, as far as, you
15 know, if they are concerned about sound, you
16 know, noise with the patio, I would be willing
17 to investigate ways in which we can, you know,
18 barrier the sound somehow.
19 MEMBER BROOKS: Well, what kind of
20 sound are you anticipating?
21 MS. LEEDS: Like from the patio,
22 like if he is concerned about the noise from

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1 the patio. Although, the patio is going to be
2 closed, you know, at a reasonable hour. But
3 I would be willing to investigate the
4 structure, build a structure there to
5 barricade the sound, so we don't have -- I'm
6 willing to investigate it.
7 MEMBER BROOKS: Okay. And the
8 outside again, looking at Exhibit 19, in the
9 front, so how late will this patio be open?
10 MS. LEEDS: Most likely the hours
11 that I have now, which is 10:00 during the
12 week and 11:00 on the weekends.
13 MEMBER BROOKS: Okay. Thank you,
14 Mr. Chair.
15 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Any other Board
16 Member questions? Mr. Alberti?
17 MEMBER ALBERTI: Hi, Ms. Leeds.
18 MS. LEEDS: Hi.
19 MEMBER ALBERTI: Good to see you
20 again.
21 MS. LEEDS: Thank you.
22 MEMBER ALBERTI: I have a bunch of

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1 questions. First of all, the building next
2 door and the building in the space you plan to
3 occupy, is this a typical row house situation
4 where the two buildings basically abut?
5 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
6 MEMBER ALBERTI: I mean, they may
7 not be connected, but it's brick-on-brick and
8 they --
9 MS. LEEDS: Right.
10 MEMBER ALBERTI: -- abut. Okay.
11 So in your construction plans, is there
12 anything in there -- I mean, how far along --
13 well, you may not be able to answer this,
14 because I don't know how far along you are.
15 But is there anything in your
16 plans that deal with soundproofing of that
17 wall that is adjacent to the building next
18 door?
19 MS. LEEDS: No, we have not. We
20 haven't started construction yet, but I have
21 spent a lot of time in that space and you
22 don't really hear anything. It's pretty

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1 thick. But, you know, I -- no, I have not.
2 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay.
3 MS. LEEDS: I have not
4 investigated any soundproofing.
5 MEMBER ALBERTI: Well, I mean,
6 it's pretty thick, but have you been in the
7 home next door, so --
8 MS. LEEDS: No.
9 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. All right.
10 And you haven't experimented with any sounds
11 or anything?
12 MS. LEEDS: No.
13 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. I just
14 want to clarify, so I'm understanding what is
15 being applied for. Your current hours of
16 operation and sales of alcohol beverage for
17 the interior of your current establishment is
18 until 12:00 weekdays and 1:00 a.m. Fridays and
19 Saturdays. Is that correct?
20 MS. LEEDS: Yes, that's correct.
21 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. And for
22 the outdoor space, the sidewalk cafe, it is

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1 11:00 p.m. weekdays and 12:00 a.m. --
2 MS. LEEDS: That's correct.
3 MEMBER ALBERTI: -- Fridays and
4 Saturdays.
5 MS. LEEDS: 11:00 and 12:00.
6 MEMBER ALBERTI: Are you asking
7 for an expansion of -- extension of those
8 hours or a change of hours in this new place?
9 MS. LEEDS: For the outdoor hours?
10 MEMBER ALBERTI: For anything.
11 For either interior or exterior. Are you
12 asking for a change of hours in this request?
13 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
14 MR. KLINE: Wait a second.
15 MS. LEEDS: I would want --
16 MEMBER ALBERTI: Well, it's a
17 question. It's a fair question.
18 MR. KLINE: I'm not sure that it
19 tracks the law. Because I think where we are
20 is we have an initial application that was
21 filed and a substantial change under the law
22 is a change from the application that was

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1 originally filed.
2 So the voluntary agreement has
3 been vacated. So her approved hours, at this
4 point, in my opinion and I'll leave it to you
5 guys, because you get to make these decisions,
6 not me, but I think what the law is, at this
7 point, her approved hours would be 2:00 and
8 3:00, notwithstanding her current operating
9 hours.
10 MEMBER ALBERTI: I am now looking
11 at a license for Hank's Oyster Bar dated,
12 expiration date, March 31, 2013. And the
13 hours I just stated, I can repeat them if you
14 would like, are the hours that are reflected
15 in this license that was renewed in March.
16 MR. KLINE: I'm aware of that.
17 MEMBER ALBERTI: So why are her
18 hours of operation for her current place, I'm
19 asking you she -- okay. Let's break this
20 down. Is she asking for, in this expansion,
21 a change of hours for her current space,
22 either inside or outside?

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1 MR. KLINE: I just want to make
2 sure that we are precise here, because I think
3 there --
4 MEMBER ALBERTI: And that's what
5 I'm trying to get at.
6 MR. KLINE: I understand. And I
7 want to be clear and I don't want to mislead
8 the Board in any way. I want everybody to be
9 clear. So what we think the law is, and again
10 the Board decides, but, my reading of the
11 regulations is that when you request a
12 substantial change, the language is a change
13 from what you originally applied for. I think
14 that's the -- I don't have it handy.
15 MEMBER ALBERTI: Right.
16 MR. KLINE: But that's the
17 language of the regs. Okay. So what was
18 originally applied for was 2:00 and 3:00.
19 Now, that was restricted because she entered
20 into a voluntary agreement. That voluntary
21 agreement has now been vacated by order of the
22 Board.

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1 Her approved hours, I believe,
2 right now are 2:00 and 3:00 as they --
3 MEMBER ALBERTI: Why would they--
4 why, Mr. Kline, do they become 2:00 and 3:00
5 if her license -- the VA is no longer a point
6 here. It's we are going by what is in the
7 license.
8 MR. KLINE: Well, no --
9 MEMBER ALBERTI: Well, wait, wait,
10 wait.
11 MR. KLINE: Okay.
12 MEMBER ALBERTI: And to my
13 understanding, you can have a VA which has
14 different hours than the license, and it's the
15 VA, if there are shorter hours, that governs.
16 Now, just by coincidence, in this case, the
17 license and the VA had the same hours.
18 But I'm not looking at the VA.
19 I'm looking at the license here.
20 MR. KLINE: In reality what has
21 happened is --
22 MEMBER ALBERTI: I can address

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1 this, consult with the legal staff, but that's
2 my understanding.
3 MR. KLINE: Okay. And just to
4 short-circuit it, if I may? In reality what
5 has happened is if one applies for 2:00 and
6 3:00 and then there is a voluntary agreement
7 that restricts those, ABRA, the Agency, then
8 puts the hours on the license that are more
9 restrictive.
10 So the hours that are on the
11 license, they didn't come from the original
12 application. They came from the VA that was
13 incorporated by Board order. Check with
14 counsel, but I believe that's where we are.
15 MEMBER ALBERTI: Yes, yes, I could
16 be wrong.
17 MR. KLINE: Okay.
18 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: That's what I
19 thought, too. So I think what this huddle
20 back here was all about was that we don't have
21 the actual application in front of us for what
22 Ms. Leeds actually requested, but the point I

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1 think, Mr. Kline, that you are trying to say
2 is that the hours reflect the voluntary
3 agreement.
4 The hours that are written on the
5 license currently reflect the mandate of the
6 voluntary agreement.
7 MR. KLINE: Yes.
8 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: But if the
9 voluntary agreement has been vacated, then the
10 actual hours that should apply to the license
11 are what were requested by the licensee in the
12 original license request.
13 MR. KLINE: That's correct.
14 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: On the license
15 application.
16 MR. KLINE: And I think that's the
17 language of the regulations.
18 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Right. So we
19 are just looking to see what the actual
20 license request had on its request for hours.
21 MR. KLINE: And that would be the
22 original license.

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1 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: And we are all
2 inclined to agree with you.
3 MR. KLINE: Okay.
4 MEMBER ALBERTI: Yes, okay. No,
5 and I -- yes, and you are absolutely right and
6 I understand that, but I'm more looking at
7 something that says 3 -- I think we need to
8 check the records, because I'm looking at
9 something that says 3 -- Mr. Chairman, do you
10 have something that says 3/27/2007 and it's an
11 application signed by Ms. Leeds and hours of
12 operation are even more restricted. They are
13 until 10:00 some nights and 11:00 others.
14 MR. KLINE: But that would be the
15 renewal, that's not the original application.
16 In -- the regulations say as applied for in
17 the original application.
18 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: All right.
19 Well, we will pull that.
20 MR. KLINE: Okay.
21 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Because that's
22 what we believe would then govern.

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1 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay.
2 MR. KLINE: Yes, I think that's
3 right.
4 MEMBER ALBERTI: So we will have
5 to -- okay.
6 MR. KLINE: Yes, I just want to
7 make sure we are clear, because I don't want
8 to --
9 MEMBER ALBERTI: That's fine and I
10 understand that.
11 MR. KLINE: Okay.
12 MEMBER ALBERTI: I do want that to
13 be clear. And I think the Board needs to make
14 sure we are clear on that.
15 MR. KLINE: Sure. Absolutely.
16 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. So what
17 you are applying for in the new space, in the
18 new outdoor -- new sidewalk cafe are the hours
19 that you believe you originally applied for
20 when you opened Hank's and you believe that
21 those are the maximum hours allowed by the
22 law. Is that correct?

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1 MS. LEEDS: Correct.
2 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. All right.
3 Do you have a C of O for the new space,
4 Certificate of Occupancy?
5 MS. LEEDS: Let's see, that's a
6 good question.
7 MEMBER ALBERTI: I mean, I know
8 you haven't done construction. I don't know
9 where you are in that process.
10 MS. LEEDS: No, I haven't got --
11 we are in the process of getting permits.
12 MEMBER ALBERTI: So you don't
13 have --
14 MS. LEEDS: No.
15 MEMBER ALBERTI: -- a Certificate
16 of Occupancy?
17 MS. LEEDS: No.
18 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. That's it
19 for questions. Okay. Now, again, I'm trying
20 to understand what is being applied for,
21 because what was posted is expansion of
22 premise to include an increase of 80 seats.

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1 And an additional expansion to increase the
2 sidewalk cafe seating to 20 seats. That is
3 what is on the notice.
4 And I'm confused because the
5 notice doesn't say anything about a summer
6 garden.
7 MS. LEEDS: In the back?
8 MEMBER ALBERTI: Yes.
9 MS. LEEDS: Yes. I didn't really
10 know that there had to be a distinction.
11 MEMBER ALBERTI: Well, again, I'll
12 consult with legal staff, because I believe
13 that generally we do.
14 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
15 MEMBER ALBERTI: Because it is
16 only fair to everyone that we know what the
17 application entails.
18 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
19 MEMBER ALBERTI: All right. So I
20 just wanted to make that point.
21 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
22 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. Now, on

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1 this patio, where -- okay. To the -- I guess
2 this is to the east of that patio, what's
3 there? Is it a building? Is it open space?
4 MS. LEEDS: To where the existing
5 Hank's or the --
6 MEMBER ALBERTI: No, no, no.
7 MS. LEEDS: -- expanding into?
8 MEMBER ALBERTI: No, the patio
9 that you are proposing.
10 MS. LEEDS: Yes, in the front.
11 MEMBER ALBERTI: In the front.
12 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
13 MEMBER ALBERTI: I believe that
14 would be to the east.
15 MS. LEEDS: Okay. Yes.
16 MEMBER ALBERTI: Now, what's
17 there? Is it --
18 MS. LEEDS: It's just an empty
19 space.
20 MEMBER ALBERTI: And how owns that
21 empty space?
22 MS. LEEDS: George Mallios. Well,

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1 it's an outdoor space for patios, so the city
2 owns that.
3 MEMBER ALBERTI: No, no. Okay.
4 Well --
5 MS. LEEDS: You mean adjacent to
6 the building? Oh, it's the yard. It's a
7 brick wall. There is like a half brick wall
8 that is probably about 4 feet high.
9 MEMBER ALBERTI: No, no. In the
10 rear.
11 MR. KLINE: In the rear.
12 MS. LEEDS: Oh, in the rear?
13 MEMBER ALBERTI: In the rear, yes,
14 patio.
15 MS. LEEDS: In the rear is --
16 MEMBER ALBERTI: I'm not talking
17 about the sidewalk cafe. I'm talking about
18 patio, yes.
19 MS. LEEDS: Garage. It's their
20 garage. It's -- well, it's a very high brick
21 wall, so it's like probably an 8 foot high
22 brick wall.

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1 MEMBER ALBERTI: So wouldn't that
2 be their ground floor next door? Is that
3 owned by the resident next door, first of all?
4 Is that property that is owned by the resident
5 next door?
6 MS. LEEDS: Next door?
7 MEMBER ALBERTI: Yes. Front --
8 MS. LEEDS: Is owned by the
9 resident next door, yes.
10 MEMBER ALBERTI: And wouldn't that
11 be their ground floor?
12 MS. LEEDS: It probably does work
13 the same way.
14 MEMBER ALBERTI: So what's the
15 exact, their rear yard?
16 MS. LEEDS: I'm not sure. I have
17 never been in their house.
18 MEMBER ALBERTI: No, well, you've
19 looked out the patio where the patio would be.
20 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
21 MEMBER ALBERTI: What's there?
22 MS. LEEDS: It's --

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1 MEMBER ALBERTI: Is it their rear
2 yard?
3 MS. LEEDS: It's a garage. It's
4 for parking. They have two cars that they
5 park there.
6 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. And so
7 where is the rear of their building in
8 relationship to this patio? Where does the
9 patio start in relationship to the rear of
10 their building?
11 MS. LEEDS: Oh, okay. You see
12 that little notch?
13 MEMBER ALBERTI: Right. That
14 would be the rear of their building?
15 MS. LEEDS: Yes, that's probably
16 the rear of their building.
17 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. Okay.
18 That's all the questions I have.
20 Mr. Gandhi?
21 MEMBER GANDHI: Thank you, Mr.
22 Chair. Mr. Alberti, thank you for your

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1 questions, because I, too, was a little
2 confused.
3 Regardless of when you are
4 planning to operate it, I just want to talk
5 about your legally-allowed hours, which you
6 believe right now are 2:00 a.m. and 3:00 a.m.,
7 correct?
8 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
9 MEMBER GANDHI: And it would be
10 the same hours for the space that you are
11 moving into?
12 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
13 MEMBER GANDHI: So forget the fact
14 that you may want to close at 11:00.
15 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
16 MEMBER GANDHI: The authorized
17 hours would be 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning.
18 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
19 MEMBER GANDHI: Now, I have
20 concerns because you have a resident next door
21 to you.
22 MS. LEEDS: Yes.

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1 MEMBER GANDHI: Let's make it
2 plain and simple here. And I -- in the last
3 four years that I have been on the Board,
4 unless you have a top qualified sound engineer
5 and you're doing a lot of noise mitigation, it
6 may be hard to sort of contain those voices --
7 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
8 MEMBER GANDHI: -- that you are
9 going to have. And so I'm really concerned
10 about that. And you haven't said anything to
11 me right now, at least, to sort of put me at
12 ease on those concerns.
13 And so I want to give you an
14 opportunity right now to, you know, let me
15 know of any plans that you may have to
16 mitigate noise.
17 MS. LEEDS: Well, I'm willing to
18 investigate the options. I mean, I haven't,
19 you know, done this so far, but, you know, if
20 there is extra walls, you know, that need to
21 go up or fencing or, you know, I'm willing to
22 investigate it.

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1 MEMBER GANDHI: See, but my
2 question to you is, you are willing to
3 investigate it, but right now you are asking
4 for permission to move into that space without
5 having investigated it.
6 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
7 MEMBER GANDHI: And so that's the
8 difficult position you are putting me in.
9 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
10 MEMBER GANDHI: At this point. So
11 have you had any conversations with sound
12 engineers or any sound experts as it relates
13 to the expansion?
14 MS. LEEDS: No. No, I have not.
15 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. The outdoor
16 patio, that would direct abut the stairs,
17 basically, of a residential neighbor, correct?
18 MS. LEEDS: Well, like I said,
19 there would be about 5 feet away and they are
20 up higher, so they -- their feet are like at
21 the head level when they are walking up to
22 their door.

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1 MEMBER GANDHI: And you are saying
2 the walls, if I heard you correctly with Mr.
3 Alberti's questions, are brick-to-brick
4 basically?
5 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
6 MEMBER GANDHI: And so is your
7 plan right now to leave the walls the way they
8 are?
9 MS. LEEDS: Um-hum.
10 MEMBER GANDHI: They are?
12 MEMBER GANDHI: You have to say
13 yes or no.
14 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
15 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. So you're
16 going to leave the brick-to-brick with the
17 residential neighbor and basically put tables.
18 So I'm looking at this exhibit correctly, the
19 one that you gave us, which side is the
20 residential side? Is it the top side?
21 MS. LEEDS: The top.
22 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. That would

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1 make sense. And so you will have --
2 MS. LEEDS: That's outdoor area.
3 You see those stairs going up like halfway?
4 MEMBER GANDHI: Right here.
5 MS. LEEDS: That's going up to the
6 outside. Yes, that's outside area all the
7 way.
8 MEMBER GANDHI: This is the
9 outside area?
10 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
11 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: The second
12 floor area.
13 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
14 MEMBER GANDHI: So what's on the
15 other side of the outside area?
16 MS. LEEDS: Their house up to that
17 little notch.
18 MEMBER GANDHI: So their house --
19 MS. LEEDS: There are no windows
20 or anything. It's just a concrete wall. All
21 I have there is a concrete wall. I don't know
22 what's on the other side of it.

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1 MEMBER GANDHI: It's all concrete
2 wall.
3 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: It's still the
4 neighbor, but there is no windows, nothing
5 like that. It's just a block wall.
6 MEMBER GANDHI: So is it bricks or
7 is it --
8 MS. LEEDS: Concrete.
9 MEMBER GANDHI: It's brick?
10 MS. LEEDS: There's some concrete
11 and brick.
12 MEMBER GANDHI: Concrete and
13 brick?
14 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
15 MEMBER GANDHI: And have you done
16 any noise measurements as to what you can and
17 can't hear inside the resident's house?
18 MS. LEEDS: No.
19 MEMBER GANDHI: Did you think
20 about doing any noise measurements? I mean,
21 I don't think I'm asking anything crazy.
22 MS. LEEDS: I mean, I --

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1 MEMBER GANDHI: I'm just asking
2 something --
3 MS. LEEDS: Well, just because --
4 I mean, I have, obviously, been thinking about
5 the neighbor, because I know he has concerns.
6 So I've been thinking about ways to, you know,
7 deal with the noise and so that's why I've
8 been thinking about, you know, maybe a bamboo
9 kind of wall or, you know, I didn't go much
10 further than that.
11 MEMBER GANDHI: You haven't gone
12 much further than just thinking about it, at
13 this point?
14 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
15 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. And so
16 maybe I can understand it better. That wall
17 that separates it is actually the resident's
18 wall?
19 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
20 MEMBER GANDHI: Correct? Your
21 neighbor's wall?
22 MS. LEEDS: Yes.

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1 MEMBER GANDHI: On the second
2 floor on the outside area?
4 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. And the
5 front part --
6 MS. LEEDS: But then where that
7 little notch is, you see that little notch
8 there?
9 MEMBER GANDHI: Yes.
10 MS. LEEDS: Then it starts their
11 parking spaces, so it's open.
12 MR. KLINE: The back of the
13 building.
14 MS. LEEDS: The back.
15 MEMBER GANDHI: The back of the
16 building is entirely open?
17 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
18 MEMBER GANDHI: Because it's their
19 parking spaces?
20 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
21 MEMBER GANDHI: So you have those
22 two tables. And what's in the back there,

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1 trash?
2 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
3 MEMBER GANDHI: And that's on the
4 second floor or that's the lower floor, the
5 trash?
6 MS. LEEDS: Well, you go out the
7 mezzanine floor and it is level, but then that
8 goes out to the alley in the back.
9 MEMBER GANDHI: Got it. So you
10 have those two tables of four that --
11 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
12 MEMBER GANDHI: -- are overlooking
13 the neighbor's garage?
14 MS. LEEDS: No, it's a very high
15 wall. You can't overlook anything. It's a
16 very high concrete wall.
17 MEMBER GANDHI: No, after the
18 notch. After the notch.
19 MS. LEEDS: Yes. It's a very high
20 wall.
21 MEMBER GANDHI: Even after that,
22 there is a high concrete wall?

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1 MS. LEEDS: High concrete wall,
2 yes. So it's totally blocked off.
3 MEMBER GANDHI: And what will you
4 have on your side?
5 MS. LEEDS: The patio.
6 MEMBER GANDHI: All right. Okay.
7 I'm sorry if I'm not understanding it exactly,
8 but and on the other side of it, in the front
9 side of it --
10 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
11 MEMBER GANDHI: -- is that the
12 private room you are talking about?
13 MS. LEEDS: Yes, um-hum, yes.
14 MEMBER GANDHI: That is, okay.
15 and when will the private room be open?
16 MS. LEEDS: Whenever there is a
17 party booked.
18 MEMBER GANDHI: How many seats can
19 -- will it fit?
20 MS. LEEDS: 18.
21 MEMBER GANDHI: 18 seats?
22 MS. LEEDS: Yes.

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1 MEMBER GANDHI: And those would be
2 the same times, obviously. And right to the
3 front of that where it says open to below.
4 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
5 MEMBER GANDHI: What's in that
6 area?
7 MS. LEEDS: That's the first
8 floor.
9 MEMBER GANDHI: Is this open?
10 That is the first floor?
11 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
12 MEMBER GANDHI: And you can
13 oversee the first floor?
14 MS. LEEDS: Yes. It's a balcony.
15 MEMBER GANDHI: It's a balcony.
16 And that first floor will have the bar,
17 correct? So you are overlooking the bar?
18 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
19 MEMBER GANDHI: All right. Now,
20 I'm understanding. And that bar will be flush
21 with this same wall that will abut the
22 resident, correct?

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1 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
2 MEMBER GANDHI: So as people talk,
3 they will be talking to each other on the
4 stools, but they may be talking to the
5 bartender whatever the case might be and that
6 voice stream will go?
7 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
8 MEMBER GANDHI: Towards that way.
9 MS. LEEDS: But, you know, these
10 are very old buildings and they are --
11 MEMBER GANDHI: Right.
12 MS. LEEDS: -- very thick walls.
13 I mean, I can't hear -- I mean, I really don't
14 think you would be able to hear the noise, but
15 I could be wrong.
16 MEMBER GANDHI: Well, could be
17 wrong is what I'm scared of. I'll be honest
18 with you. All right. All right.
19 MS. LEEDS: Well, what do you
20 suggest, I mean, for --
21 MEMBER GANDHI: Well, it's not
22 about what I suggest. It's what about -- it's

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1 about what you are suggesting for your
2 substantial expansion, your substantial
3 change. That's what I'm asking.
4 MS. LEEDS: Okay.
5 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. I have --
6 oh, and the outside area, you are saying there
7 would be a 5 foot buffer, right?
8 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
9 MEMBER GANDHI: Between that wall
10 and where you are going to seat patrons. Are
11 you going to do anything special within the
12 new area if you were to be approved, i.e., you
13 know, seat patrons first in the outside area
14 and your current space and then seat patrons
15 there? I mean, do you have any sort of plan
16 as it relates to how you are going to seat
17 patrons outside?
18 MS. LEEDS: No, I don't have a
19 plan yet.
21 Thank you. I have no further questions, Mr.
22 Chairman.

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1 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Questions?
2 MR. KLINE: No questions.
4 Members? Ms. Leeds, how many people live
5 directly next to this proposed expansion?
6 MS. LEEDS: There is one household
7 and I believe it is a mother, father and I
8 think they have two or maybe three children
9 that live there with them, adult children.
10 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So five people
11 live directly next to your establishment?
12 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
13 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: How many people
14 in the District of Columbia don't live
15 directly next to your establishment?
16 MS. LEEDS: Hundreds of thousands
17 probably.
18 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Can you
19 estimate that for me?
20 MS. LEEDS: A million.
21 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Maybe 599,996
22 perhaps or so?

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1 MS. LEEDS: That's a good number.
2 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So far more
3 people don't live next to you than live next
4 to you?
5 MS. LEEDS: Correct.
6 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: How much money
7 are you planning to invest in the expansion?
8 MS. LEEDS: It's probably going to
9 take about $200,00 to $250,000.
10 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Yes. And how
11 many new jobs will it generate for the
12 District?
13 MS. LEEDS: It will generate about
14 probably 20, 25 jobs.
15 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Yes. Do you
16 have any idea how much it will contribute to
17 the District in terms of additional tax
18 revenue?
19 MS. LEEDS: Well, probably about
20 $40,000 or $50,000 a year.
21 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Well, I hope
22 more than that and you do, too.

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1 MS. LEEDS: Yes.
2 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Yes. My take
3 is triple that at a minimum.
4 MS. LEEDS: Yes, yes.
5 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Given the size
6 of the expansion and where you are located.
7 I mean, if you can't crank that out, okay.
8 Board Members, any other questions? Mr.
9 Kline?
10 MR. KLINE: Yes.
12 BY MR. KLINE:
13 Q Ms. Leeds, the drawing that we
14 have been referring to, this is a conceptual
15 layout drawing, correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q All right. You have spent some
18 money with an architect, correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q All right. And you haven't gone
21 further than that, in terms of spending money,
22 why?

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1 A Because I'm waiting to hear the
2 outcome of the hearing.
3 Q Okay. And if you aren't approved
4 for the expansion, then that money is just
5 wasted, isn't it?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Now, you talked about working with
8 the community. Is that something that you
9 have done during your six years at the
10 establishment?
11 A Yes, I'm always talking to the
12 guests and people that come in, people in the
13 neighborhood.
14 Q All right. And have been
15 responsive when there have been issues?
16 A Yes, yes. Whenever there is an
17 issue.
18 Q In terms of the private room, the
19 private dining room we talked about.
20 A Yes.
21 Q Does that -- notwithstanding what
22 your current hours are open to the public,

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1 does that provide an opportunity to do maybe
2 some special late night parties or other
3 things that might occur during times that you
4 wouldn't normally be open?
5 A Yes, it does.
6 Q Okay. So even if you closed the
7 restaurant say at 11:00 and 12:00, the
8 occasional time someone wanted to book a party
9 later, the private dining room would give you
10 an opportunity to do that? Is that correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q All right. In terms of the
13 maximum legal hours which we think that you
14 are now approved for, is it your current
15 intention to be open those maximum legal hours
16 on a daily basis?
17 A No.
18 Q Okay. What will that depend on in
19 terms of what -- how your hours might
20 fluctuate and adjust?
21 A For the current establishment?
22 For the current operation or for the --

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1 Q Right, for both operations.
2 A There is a possibility that, yes,
3 we would stay open a little bit later and have
4 later service.
5 Q And what's --
6 A For food, food and drink, not just
7 drink.
8 Q Okay. For food and drink?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And what would that be dependent
11 upon?
12 A If the neighborhood wanted it. If
13 it was the -- if the market could bear it.
14 Q Right. Okay. And in terms of
15 Chairman Brodsky asked you about revenues
16 generated for the District, there would be the
17 10 percent sales tax on additional sales,
18 correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Do you have any conception as to
21 what additional sales might be at that
22 expanded area if you were to say hit a

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1 homerun?
2 A You know, it could possibly be,
3 you know, $100,000 of taxes.
4 Q If you had an additional million
5 in sales?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And is that achievable in that
8 area in that space?
9 A It could be.
10 Q Okay.
11 A If I booked enough parties.
12 Q Okay. And then you talked about
13 what 25 employees?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And there would also be payroll
16 tax payable on that as well, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What was in the space previously?
19 A It was an apartment.
20 Q Okay. And on the ground -- what
21 is the ground floor on Q Street, was that also
22 an apartment?

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1 A Yes, it was an artist studio.
2 Q Okay.
3 A At one point an apartment. It was
4 a dry cleaners quite a while ago. And then it
5 was a living apartment.
6 Q And it was previously then
7 residential, correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q But it was rezoned?
10 A Correct.
11 Q Proceeding through the Zoning
12 Commission?
13 A Yes.
14 Q As far as you know --
15 A Landmarked.
16 Q -- notice to the public and an
17 opportunity to participate?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay. Thank you.
20 MR. KLINE: No further questions.
22 MR. HIBEY: No questions.

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1 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Jones?
2 MEMBER JONES: No questions, Mr.
3 Chairman. Thank you.
5 much.
6 MS. LEEDS: Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Kline, any
8 other witnesses?
9 MR. KLINE: No, Mr. Chairman. The
10 only other thing we have is just a technical
11 correction. I'm not sure it is terribly
12 substantive, but although it is correct that
13 the Certificate of Occupancy was issued
14 indicating that this is in a Zoning District
15 C-2-A, in reality, according to the Zoning Map
16 of the District of Columbia, and I have a
17 report that is printed out from the Zoning
18 Commission's website, this is actually Zoned
19 C-2-B.
20 And I would ask the Board to take
21 administrative notice of that, although there
22 has been some confusion and would certainly

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1 tender to the Board the District of Columbia
2 Zoning Map report to aid the Board in being
3 able to take the appropriate administrative
4 notice. And was not aware, frankly, that the
5 C of O was wrong until it was raised at the
6 last hearing.
7 And other than that, we would
8 rest.
9 MEMBER ALBERTI: May I ask a
10 question in that regard?
12 MEMBER ALBERTI: The report --
13 does the Map -- does the District of Columbia
14 Map also show C-2-B?
15 MR. KLINE: Yes, the report
16 actually has a, which Mr. Hibey now has --
17 it's C-2-B. Do we have a stipulation it's C-
18 2-B?
19 MEMBER ALBERTI: I just had to
20 make sure that there --
21 MR. KLINE: We'll see about that.
22 Okay.

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1 MEMBER ALBERTI: -- is no --
2 MR. KLINE: There is no dispute
3 about that.
4 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. Fine.
5 MR. KLINE: Right. I know at the
6 last hearing --
7 MR. HIBEY: We have no problem
8 with that.
9 MR. KLINE: Well, because it
10 states on the C of O which turns out is wrong
11 and I was not aware of it.
12 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Thank you.
13 MR. KLINE: That was raised at our
14 last hearing. And that would be all that we
15 have. Thank you.
16 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: There is
17 probably an updated C of O.
18 MR. KLINE: I beg your pardon?
19 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Is that
20 basically what you are saying, you have an
21 updated Certificate of Occupancy? Did I
22 mishear that?

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1 MR. KLINE: Well, no. Apparently,
2 for whatever reason, I don't know why, the C
3 of O that was issued where they list the
4 zoning, it put C-2-A on it. I think it's
5 probably just an error.
6 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Sure.
7 MR. KLINE: But it's clearly in
8 the C-2-B.
9 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Okay. Again,
10 you can get it updated or whatever and we'll
11 take notice of that as well. Okay. Mr.
12 Hibey, witnesses?
13 MR. HIBEY: Yes. Our first
14 witness is Mr. Abdi Poozesh.
15 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Poozesh,
16 please, raise your right hand for me.
17 Whereupon,
18 ABDI POOZESH
20 Protestants and having been first duly sworn,

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2 Mr. Hibey, it's your witness.
4 BY MR. HIBEY:
5 Q Good afternoon.
6 A Good afternoon.
7 Q Please, state your name for the
8 record.
9 A Abdi Poozesh, 1620 Q Street.
10 Q I'm sorry, could you say that
11 again? Where do you live?
12 A At 1620 Q Street, N.W.
13 Q Okay. What do you do for a
14 living?
15 A I'm a businessman. I have two art
16 galleries, framing and art galleries in
17 Washington, D.C.
18 Q Okay.
19 A Going back to 25 years of
20 experience working in that business and I have
21 my verification in Virginia.
22 Q Thank you. How long have you

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1 lived at 1620 Q Street?
2 A Close to seven years.
3 Q Who do you live there with?
4 A With my children and my wife.
5 Q And what are their names?
6 A One of them Georgia is 33 years-
7 old, Asfandia is 27 and Hooman is 22. Hooman
8 is back to college in Harrisonburg. And my
9 wife Susan.
10 Q Okay. So that's you, your wife
11 and three children, correct?
12 A I have two -- three, yes.
13 Q Okay. And where is your home in
14 relation to Hank's Oyster Bar currently?
15 A It is one building away.
16 Q Okay. There were -- and Hank's is
17 seeking to expand. You understand that,
18 right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And where would they be expanding
21 to?
22 A Adjacent to my property. Wall-to-

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1 all to my residence.
2 Q Okay. So you understand that
3 their expansion would be to 1622 Q Street,
4 correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And can you tell us why you oppose
7 that expansion?
8 A Well, because of the noise and
9 trash and rats, at this point, and as I said
10 previous testimony, I have business. Even
11 though I never had explain -- I never have
12 complained from her for something, even at
13 this point, that she is one building away. In
14 my living room sometimes late at night, I can
15 definitely show that people go there just for
16 a drink or something.
17 I can hear their conversations.
18 Q Okay.
19 A Can hear people in my living room.
20 Q So you can already hear patrons at
21 Hank's inside your home?
22 A Very -- well, no, the one is

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1 outside. So when they go a little bit loud,
2 yes.
3 Q And what do you think will happen
4 if Hank's moves into 1622 Q Street and then
5 shares a wall with your home?
6 A Living would be almost impossible.
7 My property would drop in value. Most likely
8 I have hard time to sell it if I want to move
9 out of here.
10 Q Have you seen any drawings,
11 proposed drawings for how Hank's is going to
12 expand?
13 A Absolutely not.
14 Q Has anyone from Hank's every
15 talked to you about any of these noise issues
16 that you have concerns about?
17 A No.
18 Q What part of your home shares a
19 wall with 1622 Q Street?
20 A My living room, at this point. If
21 she goes to second floor, my bedroom.
22 Q Okay. So your living room on the

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1 first floor shares with wall with 1622 and
2 your bedroom on the second floor shares a
3 wall?
4 A Yes, if she moves to second floor,
5 yes.
6 Q Okay. You mentioned that you
7 think your property value will decline if
8 Hank's expands.
9 A Yes, I hired an appraiser like the
10 last few weeks and he gave me a report and
11 charge me for quite money to do that. And he
12 told me my property value drops at least 5
13 percent if she moves next door. I have equity
14 in that building. It's going to affect about
15 close to 14 percent of my equity.
16 Q Okay. All right. Thank you.
17 A Sure.
19 MR. KLINE: Yes.
21 BY MR. KLINE:
22 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Poozesh.

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1 A Good afternoon.
2 Q Is your appraiser here today?
3 A I'm sorry?
4 Q Is your appraiser here today?
5 A No.
6 Q Okay. Now, this property that we
7 are talking about, 1622, it went through a
8 rezoning, correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q All right. And you were notified
11 of that rezoning, correct?
12 A I was notified from that.
13 Q Okay. That's my question. So you
14 were notified?
15 A Yes.
16 Q All right. And you chose not to
17 participate in that proceeding. Isn't that
18 correct?
19 A Because --
20 Q The question is did you decide not
21 to participate in that proceeding?
22 A Can I say why?

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1 Q I'm just asking you if that was
2 your choice?
3 A No.
4 Q So you did participate in the
5 proceeding?
6 A No. I did not object to it, but
7 for reason.
8 Q Okay. Okay. Why didn't you
9 object to it?
10 A Because George told me he is going
11 to change this to a commercial and since we
12 are very good relationship as business people,
13 I just explain leave everything. I did
14 believed him. I did not ask for any writing
15 or anything.
16 Q Okay. So he told you that it was
17 going to be commercial, correct?
18 A Commercial retail.
19 Q Okay. And you are aware, are you
20 not, that a restaurant is considered retail
21 use in the District of Columbia, correct?
22 A Our conversation, retail business

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1 like he mentioned flower shop or even bakery
2 or something like that, yes.
3 Q But you knew that, of course,
4 would depend upon his ability to attract that
5 kind of tenant, right?
6 A Of course.
7 Q All right. And if he couldn't
8 attract that kind of tenant, then he would
9 have to find a different kind of tenant,
10 correct?
11 A Always in the way, but, yes.
12 Q Okay. But you are in business,
13 correct?
14 A I'm in business, yes.
15 Q You are --
16 A But I'm not really very familiar
17 with zoning and, you know, different zoning.
18 Right now, you are talking about C-B, C-R-2,
19 C-R-A, I have no idea what those mean.
20 Q You are far afield of my question.
21 My question is you are a business person,
22 correct?

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1 A Yes.
2 Q Right. And you know business
3 people have to make business decisions,
4 particularly when we are talking about real
5 property, right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q All right. So you knew that if
8 Mr. Mallios couldn't attract the business that
9 you might think would be desirable, then he
10 would have to attract a different kind of
11 tenant, correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q All right. Now, what do you think
14 would happen to your property values if a
15 funeral home was in the space next to you?
16 A If they close 9:00 and go home,
17 probably I can sleep night.
18 Q No. My question is what do you
19 think that would do to your property value?
20 A It does the same thing.
21 Q It would cause your property
22 values to decline, correct?

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1 A Yes, yes.
2 Q And it would probably cause your
3 property values to decline more than this use,
4 wouldn't it?
5 A Probably, yes.
6 Q Okay. I mean, you would rather
7 live next to a restaurant than a funeral home,
8 wouldn't you?
9 A I don't have to -- business close
10 9:00 and go home.
11 Q So you would rather live next to
12 the funeral home?
13 A With the restaurant or funeral,
14 yes, I would prefer --
15 Q Okay.
16 A -- restaurant.
17 Q That's fine. What about a pool
18 hall? I think we talked about that one last
19 time. What about a pool hall? Would you
20 rather live next to a pool hall than this
21 business, Hank's Oyster Bar?
22 A No.

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1 Q No. You would rather live next to
2 Hank's Oyster Bar?
3 A Yes.
4 Q All right. You are aware, are you
5 not, that if a pool hall went into that
6 location, that we wouldn't be -- and it didn't
7 seek an alcoholic beverage license, we
8 wouldn't be here. Are you aware of that?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. So they would be able to do
11 that as a matter-of-right and you wouldn't be
12 able to object, at this point, correct?
13 A Most likely, yes.
14 Q All right. Your opportunity to
15 object to that kind of use would have been at
16 the Zoning Commission, right?
17 A That's right.
18 Q All right. But you chose not to
19 participate in that proceeding, right?
20 A (No audible answer.)
21 Q Right. Now, you indicated that no
22 one from Hank's had talked to you about noise

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1 problems and addressing noise problems. Is
2 that your testimony?
3 A No.
4 Q No one had?
5 A No one had.
6 Q The fact of the matter is you were
7 aware that this application was made, right?
8 A Yes, yes.
9 Q All right. And the fact of the
10 matter is you didn't talk to Ms. Leeds or
11 anyone about your concerns about noise, did
12 you?
13 A No.
14 Q No.
15 A As a neighbor, I never complained
16 to her, because I think it's a business and I
17 try to respect her, because as I say the other
18 time, I admire her business. I admire her.
19 But I just -- as a business, because I have a
20 business in that District, I wanted to set
21 some compromise might come forward to some
22 degree. But this is going to be more

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1 tolerable than what I can do.
2 Q Okay. So you didn't -- when the
3 notice went up --
4 A Yes.
5 Q -- that Ms. Leeds was seeking
6 approval of an expansion, you didn't talk to
7 her about your noise concerns, because you
8 thought that that would be unneighborly? Is
9 that your testimony?
10 A I tried to reach her, but I heard
11 from here and there her attorney advised her
12 don't talk to anyone.
13 Q Did you ever call her attorney?
14 A No.
15 Q Did you ever call her?
16 A No.
17 Q Okay. So you didn't really try to
18 reach her.
19 A I tried to reach her.
20 Q Wait, wait. Let me finish my
21 question. Okay. So you didn't really try to
22 reach her, you just thought about it and

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1 people discouraged you. Is that your
2 testimony?
3 A Nobody discouraged me, no.
4 Actually, many people in the neighborhood they
5 try to make the contact that I can talk to her
6 directly. But I heard that she has said she
7 doesn't want to talk to anyone.
8 Q Okay. But you never spoke to her?
9 A No.
10 Q And your home is right next door
11 to her restaurant, correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you see her coming in and out
14 of the restaurant?
15 A I don't see her because the time I
16 go to work, she is not there. At the time I
17 come home, probably she is so busy in kitchen,
18 I never wanted to go and disturb.
19 Q But you were so concerned about
20 this you decided to leave it to others to try
21 and contact her?
22 A What do you mean by that?

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1 Q Well, I mean, you have said that
2 you were concerned about the noise. And you
3 said that she never contacted you.
4 A Two weeks ago or maybe three weeks
5 ago, I have no idea she wants to expand next
6 door to me.
7 Q You didn't see the notices on the
8 outside of her premise?
9 A No, no.
10 Q All right.
12 further questions. Thank you.
14 Mr. Gandhi?
15 MEMBER GANDHI: Thank you. Can
16 you, and this is I guess for me so I can fully
17 understand it and for the record as well, tell
18 me how you believe this establishment will
19 affect your peace, order, quiet?
20 MR. POOZESH: Well, obviously, I'm
21 sharing the wall.
22 MEMBER GANDHI: So talk about

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1 sharing the wall.
2 MR. POOZESH: And I have
3 expansion.
4 MEMBER GANDHI: Yes, I mean, can
5 you hear them right now through your walls?
6 MR. POOZESH: Right now --
7 MEMBER GANDHI: I'm not talking
8 about outside.
9 MR. POOZESH: -- no one is living
10 there. Right now it's residential. Sometimes
11 I hear like somebody walking there. I can
12 hear it in the morning or hear it very, very--
13 seldom noises, but you can see that someone is
14 living there on the second floor. But not to
15 the extent it bothers you or something.
16 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. How else
17 will that affect your peace, order, quiet?
18 MR. POOZESH: If it's addressed
19 from, of course, the second story, then there
20 will be one person living there.
22 MR. POOZESH: Then my -- when you

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1 were talking about the patio, we are sharing
2 a patio with one cinder block wall. If she is
3 going to make this patio as restaurant, I
4 guess I have to give up my patio sitting
5 there, because it's just --
6 MEMBER GANDHI: You have to speak
7 up. Sorry, everyone. You have to speak up.
8 Mr. Nophlin can't hear you.
9 MR. POOZESH: Well, if she is --
10 we are sharing a cinder block wall. I think
11 maybe it's 6 feet or 6 feet and a half. If
12 she wants to have the outside seating in that
13 patio, I can hear the noise or I can hear the
14 conversation from there, because it's very --
15 hardly -- this is the wall. This wide. I'm
16 sure if you have a conversation next -- behind
17 the wall, I can hear you.
18 And if she wants to have a patio
19 sitting there, of course, people like to have
20 enjoyed their time drinking and partying and
21 if I have to give up on my patio, using my
22 patio.

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1 MEMBER GANDHI: And did you -- did
2 I hear your testimony correct that you
3 sometimes hear residents right now? I mean,
4 you hear the --
5 MR. POOZESH: When to -- to be
6 true, to be honest, very late at night
7 sometimes we can when the people get a little
8 bit --
9 MEMBER GANDHI: Around what time
10 do you hear that?
11 MR. POOZESH: Like around 11:00-
12 ish or so. We can sometimes in weekdays. Not
13 very often, but sometimes when two or three
14 people they sitting there and having very good
15 time and they trying to be a little bit loud,
16 I can hear them in my living room at this
17 point.
18 MEMBER GANDHI: At this point.
19 MR. POOZESH: I am one building
20 away from it. But I have never complained,
21 because I thought well, that's city living and
22 you'll have that.

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1 MEMBER GANDHI: Can you talk to me
2 about any measures you believe the applicant
3 can make in order to expand into the space
4 next door to you? Can they, in your opinion,
5 make any improvements, soundproofing the
6 establishment or restricting access on the
7 outside area, things of that sort that may
8 help alleviate your concerns?
9 MR. POOZESH: My most objection is
10 to outside seating. Those are the ones that
11 is going to be bringing more trouble. As she
12 says, the walls are thick, so that doesn't
13 make that much noise, but outside seating in
14 front and back there is no way you can control
15 the noise. I don't think even you bring some
16 trees and, you know, technically, you know,
17 you plant some trees, but still you cannot --
18 you can proffer to some degree the noise, but
19 it's not going to be completely noise-free.
20 MEMBER GANDHI: Talk to me about
21 the back area again, the patio seating area.
22 MR. POOZESH: Yes.

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1 MEMBER GANDHI: I was trying to
2 understand exactly what is on your side of the
3 patio seating area. Maybe you can explain it
4 to me as well. Do you have this --
5 MR. POOZESH: No.
6 MEMBER GANDHI: -- exhibit? You
7 don't have it?
8 MR. POOZESH: No.
9 MEMBER GANDHI: Maybe your counsel
10 can -- do yo have it somewhere? Okay.
11 So I'm going to ask you. So your
12 house is right --
13 MR. POOZESH: Let me find, first
14 of all.
15 MEMBER GANDHI: The second floor
16 is to the left. Where is your bedroom?
17 MR. POOZESH: Is this -- what is
18 this? This building is her's?
19 MEMBER GANDHI: Yes, look at it
20 this way.
21 MR. POOZESH: Let me turn this.
22 Okay.

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1 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. So that's
2 the second floor plan. That's the first floor
3 plan. To the left is your house.
4 MR. POOZESH: Is this --
5 MEMBER GANDHI: If you are looking
6 at it.
7 MR. POOZESH: -- front of the
8 building? Is this here or --
9 MEMBER GANDHI: The front of the
10 building is here.
11 MR. POOZESH: Okay. Okay. Okay.
12 MEMBER GANDHI: So your house is
13 over here.
14 MR. POOZESH: Okay.
15 MEMBER GANDHI: Explain to me what
16 is right next to these tables. There are
17 several tables over here.
19 MEMBER GANDHI: There is three
20 tables of two and two tables of four. Explain
21 to me what is exactly on the opposite side.
22 MR. POOZESH: Okay. In this

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1 area --
3 MR. POOZESH: -- is my living
4 room.
5 MEMBER GANDHI: Can you point, so
6 the Board can see as well?
7 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Gandhi,
8 could we ask that he mark it on that map and
9 then provide it?
10 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. That's
11 easier.
12 MR. POOZESH: The panel --
13 MR. HIBEY: Let me be clear. This
14 is the second floor and this is the first
15 floor. I think he might need more help
16 understanding this.
18 MR. HIBEY: He's never seen it
19 before.
20 MEMBER GANDHI: So the first --
21 MR. POOZESH: This is the second--
22 this is the first floor?

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1 MEMBER GANDHI: No, this is the
2 second floor.
3 MR. POOZESH: This is second.
4 MEMBER GANDHI: This is the first
5 floor.
6 MR. POOZESH: This is the first
7 floor?
10 MEMBER GANDHI: So if you want to
11 talk about the first -- I would rather talk
12 about the second floor first.
14 MEMBER GANDHI: The second floor
15 you see there is three tables right here.
16 One, two, three.
18 MEMBER GANDHI: And then the patio
19 seating of two tables.
21 MEMBER GANDHI: What is on your
22 side of the house?

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1 MR. POOZESH: In that three
2 sitting chair here?
4 MR. POOZESH: That's exactly my
5 bedroom. If this is second floor, this going
6 to be my bedroom here.
7 MEMBER GANDHI: That's adjacent to
8 your bedroom?
9 MR. POOZESH: That's adjacent to
10 my bedroom.
11 MEMBER ALBERTI: Could I ask for
12 the record that he sort -- that he mark -- if
13 that's an extra copy, could he mark that on
14 there and annotate that? Because none of this
15 is getting into the record otherwise.
17 MR. POOZESH: If this is second
18 floor, this is going to be my bedroom.
20 MEMBER ALBERTI: Thank you.
21 MR. POOZESH: This highlight area
22 would be my bedroom.

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1 MEMBER GANDHI: And do you have
2 any windows in your bedroom?
3 MR. POOZESH: Two what is this
4 side of the building here?
5 MEMBER GANDHI: But not on that
6 side? Okay.
7 MR. POOZESH: And one here.
8 MEMBER GANDHI: But not on the --
9 MR. POOZESH: No, because they are
10 adjusted. They are just one wall between.
11 MEMBER GANDHI: So it's a brick
12 wall?
13 MR. POOZESH: Brick wall between
14 two buildings, yes.
15 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. And what is
16 -- and I'm just speaking loudly so everyone
17 can hear. What is adjacent to the two tables
18 with the four chairs each on the patio area?
19 MR. POOZESH: That would be
20 bedroom. It's a very long bedroom. It's
21 almost half of the building.
22 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. There was

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1 testimony that there is a concrete wall there
2 and that's the patio. So are you sure that's
3 your bedroom, right?
4 MR. POOZESH: Where is the patio?
5 This is patio, this is patio. This is second
6 -- oh, the second floor --
7 MEMBER GANDHI: This is patio
8 seating.
9 MR. POOZESH: Okay. This is -- so
10 this is the patio area here.
11 MEMBER GANDHI: Where it says
12 patio seating? It's clearly marked. You may
13 not be able to see it, but it says patio
14 seating.
15 MR. HIBEY: That little notch.
16 MEMBER GANDHI: And that may be
17 the end of your building where there is a
18 notch. And if you are unsure, you're unsure.
19 I don't want to confuse you. We can move to
20 the first floor.
22 MEMBER GANDHI: The first floor

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1 you may be well aware of. What is right next
2 to the bar area on your side of the residence?
3 MR. POOZESH: That's my living
4 room, like a guest room, living room. When we
5 enter to the building --
7 MR. POOZESH: -- mostly we watch
8 TV and live that area.
10 MR. POOZESH: This part.
11 MEMBER GANDHI: And then further
12 back, what is that?
13 MR. POOZESH: Further goes is a
14 kitchen and dining area.
15 MEMBER GANDHI: For you, for your
16 house?
17 MR. POOZESH: For me.
18 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. Great. And
19 you had mentioned that you are mostly
20 concerned with the outside area?
21 MR. POOZESH: Yes. The noise
22 mostly is bothering for outside area from the

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1 -- at this point, as I said, one building we
2 are away from her, but still we have the
3 noise. Late night we can hear loud
4 conversations having people sitting and
5 drinking in the -- but we have never
6 complained because of, you know, I have a
7 business there. I don't want to have
8 conflicts with another business. We try to
9 somehow get along.
10 MEMBER GANDHI: So if they were to
11 ameliorate any sort of noise issues on the
12 inside, is it your testimony that you would be
13 okay with them expanding on the inside of this
14 other establishment, as long as they were to
15 maybe take any sort of soundproofing measures,
16 things of that sort?
17 MR. POOZESH: If they, to my
18 opinion, do soundproofing system, I'm not
19 going to have problem inside. But what is she
20 going to do outside? If she can -- if she
21 wants to give up the outside sitting, okay.
22 MEMBER GANDHI: Well, let me ask

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1 you a question. Do you have any suggestions
2 as to what the applicant can do to mitigate
3 noise on the outside?
4 MR. POOZESH: Outside, I don't
5 have any idea. I don't think there is a way
6 to do that.
8 MR. POOZESH: Because if she makes
9 a wall to cover me, that is going to block it
10 from the front, it's going to block my yard.
11 It doesn't work. From the back --
12 MEMBER GANDHI: So you don't
13 prefer a high wall, because you think that
14 will mess up the --
16 MEMBER GANDHI: -- view anyway?
17 MR. POOZESH: That's true.
18 Because her -- actually her outside seating
19 right now is about 3 feet lower than my yard.
21 MR. POOZESH: So if she goes a
22 little bit more up, it's going to cover my

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1 yard, the view of my yard, unless she wants to
2 give up on the outside seating, then I don't
3 have a problem with her.
4 MEMBER GANDHI: All right. All
5 right. Thank you for your testimony.
6 MR. POOZESH: You're welcome.
7 MEMBER GANDHI: I have no further
8 questions.
9 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Other Board
10 Members? Mr. Jones?
11 MEMBER JONES: Thank you, Mr.
12 Chairman, I think. I think you have talked to
13 this, but I guess I lost track, so just bear
14 with me.
15 On the outside where the outside
16 seating is --
18 MEMBER JONES: -- are you saying
19 that you have a patio area or an outdoor
20 seating area --
21 MR. POOZESH: In front.
22 MEMBER JONES: -- at your

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1 establishment? At your home? At your
2 residence that directly abuts --
3 MR. POOZESH: In front or the
4 back, you're talking about?
5 MEMBER JONES: I think it's in the
6 back.
7 MR. POOZESH: In back, at this
8 point, we are sharing two patio.
9 MEMBER JONES: And it's separated
10 by a single cinder block wall?
11 MR. POOZESH: Single cinder block.
12 Cinder block wall, yes.
13 MEMBER JONES: Okay.
14 MR. POOZESH: About maybe --
15 MEMBER JONES: 6 feet high?
16 MR. POOZESH: -- 6 or 7 feet.
18 MR. POOZESH: You can look out
19 there, but you can touch the top of it.
20 MEMBER JONES: Okay. So that's
21 the area that primarily concerns you the most?
22 MR. POOZESH: That's area and

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1 mostly the front part. Mostly the outside
2 seating and front part, because that is going
3 to be next to my living room.
4 MEMBER JONES: Okay. So you said
5 the outdoor seating part --
6 MR. POOZESH: Outdoor seating.
7 MEMBER JONES: -- of her
8 establishment abuts or is directly connected
9 to your living room?
10 MR. POOZESH: No, it's not
11 connected. It's in front of my building.
12 It's connected to my yard. But conversation
13 and noise will definitely -- I cannot stop it
14 in my living room to hear it. Because as I
15 say, at this point, I can hear her -- some of
16 her guests that they go a little bit loud. I
17 can hear them in my living room.
18 MEMBER JONES: Understood. So I'm
19 just trying to focus in. I'm trying to
20 understand the layout.
22 MEMBER JONES: Do you have a patio

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1 area at your house?
2 MR. POOZESH: In front?
3 MEMBER JONES: Anywhere.
4 MR. POOZESH: In front and back,
5 yes.
6 MEMBER JONES: In front and back.
7 Okay. So either one of those, do they
8 directly connect or are next to --
9 MR. POOZESH: Yes.
10 MEMBER JONES: -- the intended
11 area that she or the establishment is going to
12 use or bear fruit for as an outdoor seating
13 area?
15 MEMBER JONES: And that is
16 separated by a single cinder block wall?
17 MR. POOZESH: In the back, it is
18 separated by cinder block wall. In front,
19 it's not separated. It's just open.
20 MEMBER JONES: Okay. So there are
21 two areas that you have that are outdoor
22 areas.

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1 MR. POOZESH: Yes, yes.
2 MEMBER JONES: The one that's in
3 the front, is that an area where you would
4 normally sit?
5 MR. POOZESH: Yes, it just I sit
6 here, this is always the wall.
7 MEMBER JONES: How do you use that
8 area?
9 MR. POOZESH: We just --
10 MEMBER JONES: Lounging? You have
11 chairs there?
12 MR. POOZESH: Lounge chairs.
13 MEMBER JONES: Is that --
14 MR. POOZESH: We don't -- we
15 normally don't leave chair, because sometimes
16 people steal it. But we do barbecue.
17 MEMBER JONES: Okay. Cool. So
18 you use it for that. It's not a parking area?
19 MR. POOZESH: No. We talking
20 about --
21 MEMBER JONES: No, no, I'm asking
22 simply about the spot. The part that you just

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1 described, that's not a parking area, correct?
2 MR. POOZESH: Parking area is in
3 back there.
4 MEMBER JONES: No.
5 MR. POOZESH: In the back of the
6 building. No, it's not parking there.
7 MEMBER JONES: Okay. Thank you.
8 The one that's in the back, that one is
9 sharing a wall. That one is in the back. Is
10 that an area that you live in, you barbecue
11 in, you sit in, you lounge in in any way shape
12 or form?
13 MR. POOZESH: Yes, sir.
14 MEMBER JONES: Okay. Cool.
15 That's all I want to know. Thank you. Thank
16 you, Mr. Chairman.
17 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Any other?
18 MEMBER ALBERTI: Mr. Poozesh, I've
19 got a description, so I'm not going to ask
20 things that were already asked, but the back
21 wall of your building.

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1 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. The ground
2 floor opens onto the patio area that you
3 described that is adjacent to their patio
4 area.
5 MR. POOZESH: Yes.
6 MEMBER ALBERTI: All right. And
7 separated by a brick wall? Do you have
8 windows in the back on that ground floor?
9 MR. POOZESH: On my building, yes.
10 MEMBER ALBERTI: Yes, that's the
11 first floor.
12 MR. POOZESH: I have.
13 MEMBER ALBERTI: That's your first
14 floor and there is windows on the back wall?
15 MR. POOZESH: I have two windows,
16 yes.
17 MEMBER ALBERTI: On the back wall?
19 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. Now, on
20 the second floor, which I guess is the floor
21 which has your building -- I mean, your
22 bedroom.

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1 MR. POOZESH: Yes.
2 MEMBER ALBERTI: And would be on
3 the same level as the second floor of the
4 expanded space, right?
5 MR. POOZESH: Yes.
6 MEMBER ALBERTI: Are there windows
7 on that back wall?
8 MR. POOZESH: There is one window.
9 MEMBER ALBERTI: One window?
10 MR. POOZESH: One big window, yes.
11 MEMBER ALBERTI: One big window.
12 How big is it?
13 MR. POOZESH: It's about 3 x 4.
14 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. Into your
15 bedroom?
17 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. And how
18 high off the ground is that?
19 MR. POOZESH: This house is old.
20 Maybe I can say 10 feet the ceiling probably
21 12 to 13 feet high.
22 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. Okay. I'm

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1 going to go back to something that we asked
2 before, because I want to make sure.
3 Currently, or until recently, the residents
4 that -- the building that we are talking to
5 was residential and there were people living
6 there?
7 MR. POOZESH: Yes.
8 MEMBER ALBERTI: Okay. And you
9 are saying that at times you could hear the
10 residents moving around and walking and
11 speaking?
12 MR. POOZESH: At this point, very,
13 very early in the morning when everything
14 quiet, you can hear next door somebody living
15 there.
16 MEMBER ALBERTI: I live in a row
17 house --
19 MEMBER ALBERTI: -- with very
20 thick walls between the two buildings and I
21 know, yes, occasionally you can hear the
22 people next door.

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1 MR. POOZESH: Yes, yes, but it
2 doesn't bother me that much.
3 MEMBER ALBERTI: Yes, I
4 understand. It's the city, yes, okay. Okay.
5 I have no other questions.
6 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Hibey,
7 redirect?
8 MR. HIBEY: I just have, I think,
9 one question.
11 BY MR. HIBEY:
12 Q How much have you invested in your
13 home? How much money have you spent on your
14 home?
15 MR. KLINE: Objection as to
16 relevance.
17 MEMBER ALBERTI: I'm going to
18 allow this, Mr. Kline. We already talked
19 about economic investments. You brought up
20 the subject. I think it is relevant. I mean,
21 the Board brought it up, the Chair brought it
22 up. That was relevant, I'm sure this is

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1 relevant. Mr. Rieffel, please.
2 MR. KLINE: You're allowed to
3 overrule him.
4 MEMBER ALBERTI: Pardon?
5 MR. KLINE: I said you're allowed
6 to overrule me.
7 MEMBER ALBERTI: Yes. I'm sorry.
8 BY MR. HIBEY:
9 Q If you could answer?
10 A Well, I bought this building that
11 nobody wanted. George, the landlord that he
12 has all that lot. He didn't have any
13 intention to buy this property. It was a good
14 idea for him to buy it.
15 I bought this building. I have
16 spended about $300,000 to fix it. And right
17 now, it's a very good single-family home, very
18 hardwood floor. I have kept a lot of the pine
19 and furniture, appliances, the kitchen is
20 Italian made. $300,000.
21 Q All right. Thank you.
22 MEMBER ALBERTI: And, Mr. Kline,

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1 any questions?
2 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. KLINE:
4 Q Isn't it true that in connection
5 with the rezoning, Mr. Mallios offered to buy
6 your building, at that time?
7 A No, he did not offer.
8 Q Isn't it true that he approached
9 you about having your property rezoned as
10 well?
11 A Yes, he did.
12 Q Yes. And in fact --
13 A He ask me.
14 Q Okay. He asked you if you wanted
15 to participate at no cost, correct?
16 A Yes. No, not no cost, but he said
17 if I wanted to get a lawyer and also
18 commercialize my building.
19 Q Right.
20 A We share the attorney fees.
21 Q Okay. And in fact, had you done
22 that, that would have made your property more

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1 valuable, wouldn't it have?
2 A For renting it, yes, but I decided
3 not to. But at that time he offered me, I
4 have already spended that much money to make
5 it residential building.
6 Q Okay. But just so I'm clear in
7 terms of value, in your opinion, had it been
8 rezoned, it would have been more valuable,
9 correct?
10 A I could rent it for better money,
11 but not, because I can bring you reason if you
12 want.
13 Q No. I mean, the question is it
14 would be more valuable if it was in
15 commercial. That's the question I'm asking
16 you to answer.
17 A For income, yes. But selling it
18 no.
19 Q Okay. All right. Now, in the
20 back behind the -- your bedroom --
21 A Yes, yes.
22 Q -- that's ground level, correct?

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1 A Behind my dining area is ground
2 level.
3 Q Behind your dining area. Now, we
4 talked earlier. Do you still have the drawing
5 in front of you?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Okay. We talked earlier about the
8 three tables --
9 A Yes.
10 Q -- that are shown on the drawing.
11 A Yes.
12 Q And adjacent to that is your
13 bedroom or the dining room?
14 A If this is second floor, it's
15 going to be in my bedroom.
16 Q Okay. So just so we are clear.
17 In the front of the building, it is the second
18 floor. I think this is testimony. I'm not
19 trying to testify. I'm just trying to
20 summarize, so we are clear.
21 In the front of the building it is
22 second floor, in the back of the building it

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1 is ground level, right? Isn't there a slope
2 from the back of the building to the front of
3 the building, such that in the front of the
4 building there is two floors and in the back
5 of the building there is only one floor, which
6 is the second floor of what is in the front of
7 the building?
8 A Okay. The way these buildings are
9 made, the second floor of my building, they
10 are not on same level. Let's say front I have
11 two bedrooms.
12 Q Okay.
13 A That if you want to go from this
14 to bedroom, to the master bedroom, you have to
15 go down a few steps. So actually they are in
16 second floor, but they are in two levels.
17 Q Okay.
18 A They are different levels.
19 Q So the buildings don't line up
20 precisely, is what you are telling me?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Okay. Isn't it true that in the

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1 rear, that's where you park your cars?
2 A I have a garage, as she does.
3 Yes, we have a garage area there next to her
4 garage, yes.
5 Q Okay. So instead of a patio area
6 behind there, there is a garage area, right?
7 A I have -- we have a patio and then
8 garage. Between the building and the garage.
9 The garage is the lower level.
10 Q Okay.
11 A In upper level I have a patio.
12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Is that
13 right?
14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's like 2
15 feet wide.
17 have any further questions. Thank you.
19 much, sir. We appreciate your time here
20 today.
21 MR. HIBEY: Do you want this
22 marked?

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1 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Say that again,
2 Mr. Hibey.
3 MR. HIBEY: He marked this. I
4 guess it was Exhibit 1.
5 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Okay.
6 MR. HIBEY: The witness marked
7 this or no? I think this is the Board's
8 exhibit.
9 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Sure. Thank
10 you. And your next witness, Mr. Hibey?
11 MR. HIBEY: We will call Fred
12 Sowers.
13 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Sir, would you
14 kindly raise your right hand?
15 Whereupon,
16 FRED SOWERS
22 Your witness, Mr. Hibey.

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2 BY MR. HIBEY:
3 Q Good afternoon. Please, state
4 your name for the record.
5 A My name is Fred Sowers, Frederick
6 Sowers.
7 Q Where do you live?
8 A I live at 1705 Q Street.
9 Q And who do you live there with?
10 A I live there with my wife and
11 adult children, two sons.
12 Q Okay.
13 A One of whom is away at college
14 actually.
15 Q How long have you lived there?
16 A Since April of 2006.
17 Q All right. And do Hank's business
18 operations affect you?
19 A Yes.
20 Q How so?
21 A Well, they provide me a restaurant
22 that I enjoy with some regularity. They are

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1 part of the streetscape that -- where I live.
2 But they also are a source of patrons who do
3 not have adequate parking or that filter out
4 into the neighborhood. They come sit on my
5 wall and continue their conversations,
6 restaurant conversations after hours and
7 litter and leave. You know, cups and glasses
8 and cigarette butts and the like.
9 Q Okay. Approximately, how far do
10 you live from Hank's?
11 A I would say about in the
12 neighborhood of 200 feet. It is about maybe
13 30 seconds if I hit the lights, because I do
14 live across 17th Street from Hank's, so it's
15 very close.
16 Q And now, you have been here and
17 you have heard that Hank's is seeking to
18 expand from 1624 Q Street to 1622 Q Street,
19 right?
20 A I believe I have the addresses
21 correct, 1620 is the neighboring residence,
22 yes.

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1 Q Yes.
2 A Okay.
3 Q And what impact do you think that
4 expansion will have on peace, order and quiet
5 for you and for the neighborhood?
6 A Well, it will have a direct impact
7 in the sense that it is one more expansion in
8 a parking garage that is not even open to
9 accommodate the traffic that is attending the
10 current hours, much less any changed hours.
11 We are -- already have difficulty
12 parking. I have had some damage to my car
13 from -- and I can't say they are Hank's
14 patrons, because there is just a continuing
15 growing preponderance of nightlife at that
16 corner. And so it's very difficult when
17 patrons leave a particular place to know where
18 they came from.
19 There is an increasing number of
20 loud conversations, fights, arguments that
21 take place immediately outside my window, my
22 bedroom.

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1 Q Yes. Now, when you moved into
2 your home in 2006 --
3 A Yes.
4 Q -- where was your bedroom located?
5 A Well, I have invested heavily in
6 my house, so my bedroom, when I moved in in
7 2006, it sort of shifted from room to room to
8 room as we were remodeling. But in the end,
9 I have a bedroom that fronts on Q Street.
10 It's a third story bedroom that is on --
11 Q Okay.
12 A -- the Q Street side of the house.
13 Q All right. And when you moved in
14 in 2006, you said you renovated your home. So
15 have you invested in your home?
16 A Yes, I have.
17 Q What was the point of the
18 investment of moving into this home?
19 A Well, similar to the witness that
20 spoke earlier who moved in from Potomac, I
21 have had my children grow up and moved in
22 closer. I have been committed to the District

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1 and lived -- I lived in upper Northwest and my
2 son went to the local elementary school there.
3 And as they grew up and went off
4 to college, we wanted to be closer in a
5 vibrant residential neighborhood that was
6 closer to the center of the city and the
7 history that is probably one of the great
8 attractions.
9 The ability to walk and move
10 around and have a neighborhood with a diverse
11 mixture of galleries, museums, restaurants,
12 urban establishments, that was the draw, but
13 it was to a residential neighborhood.
15 MR. HIBEY: That's it.
17 MR. KLINE: Yes.
19 BY MR. KLINE:
20 Q Good afternoon. So one of the
21 reasons that you moved to the neighborhood was
22 restaurants, correct?

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1 A Correct.
2 Q Right. And you live at 1705?
3 A Correct.
4 Q Q Street?
5 A That's right.
6 Q All right. So you are what the
7 first or second house in?
8 A The corner house 1701 is lateral
9 along Q and would be a row house perpendicular
10 to the houses on 17th, but it opens in the
11 middle of the house. And then the row houses
12 typically that are perpendicular to Q Street,
13 I'm the second one in.
14 Q So you are the second home?
15 A Second. The corner house and then
16 the second row house would be in. So two or
17 three houses from the corner.
18 Q Okay. And the corner is then
19 commercial, correct?
20 A The corner is not zoned purely
21 residential. The corner is zoned -- it is an
22 institute now. I think a very nice neighbor.

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1 It's the Institute for Multi-Cultural and
2 Minority Medicine, an asset.
3 Q Do you live on the north side of
4 the street or the south side of the street?
5 A I live on the north side.
6 Q North side of the street?
7 A Yes.
8 Q So you don't have any reason to
9 dispute that the north side of the street of
10 17th and Q is Zoned Commercial, do you?
11 A I do have some concern about that
12 zoning, what would be an appropriate use.
13 Q That's not my question.
14 A Yes.
15 Q My question to you is if I told
16 you that the northwest corner of 17th and Q
17 was Zoned Commercial, you don't have anything
18 to dispute that, do you?
19 A Do I have knowledge that it is or
20 isn't, at this point?
21 Q Yes.
22 A Is that your question?

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1 Q Yes.
2 A No. I know that it is -- all I
3 know is that it must not be Zoned Residential,
4 because there is an institute there, but I
5 have not done research on what that particular
6 zoning is.
7 Q Okay. So when you moved in in
8 2006, you basically moved two doors from the
9 Commercial Zone. Is that correct?
10 A I do not know that, since I don't
11 know what that area is zoned.
12 Q Okay. You didn't investigate that
13 before you bought your property?
14 A I investigated some of the zoning.
15 The particular building that I purchased was--
16 had a pending sale that did not go through
17 because there was some intended, I believe,
18 medical or dental practice that was proposed
19 to take place in it.
20 Immediately before I moved in, the
21 house across the street had been reaffirmed as
22 a residential residence. My best

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1 investigations indicated to me that every --
2 all of the current block was residential.
3 Q Except the corner on 17th Street,
4 correct?
5 A Well, the --
6 Q Wait. Let me finish my question.
7 A Yes.
8 Q You recognize that as a commercial
9 area, correct?
10 A I recognize that as -- at the time
11 I purchased it, I am not sure that I knew what
12 that zoning in that building was. It appeared
13 -- it appears residential. It is, what I
14 would consider, an appropriate transitional
15 type of business between a Commercial Zone and
16 a residential area that maintains the vibrancy
17 of the neighborhood.
18 Q Okay. Now, and where did you move
19 from?
20 A From upper Northwest, D.C.
21 Q Okay. And you concede one of the
22 reasons that you moved there are the

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1 restaurants in the neighborhood, correct?
2 A Yes, I state that.
3 Q Okay. And certainly you want to
4 see the restaurants, particularly the quality
5 -- first of all, you recognize Hank's Oyster
6 Bar as a quality operation in the
7 neighborhood, correct?
8 A It's one of many restaurants in
9 the neighborhood. And since I go there to
10 eat, it certainly has passed a threshold.
11 Q Okay.
12 A I'm not against Hank's restaurant
13 being in the neighborhood.
14 Q I understand. And certainly you
15 want to see establishments like Hank's remain
16 viable, correct?
17 A I would like to see the correct
18 balance of --
19 Q That's not my question. My
20 question is you want to see restaurants like
21 Hank's remain viable in your neighborhood,
22 don't you?

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1 A I would like to see an appropriate
2 balance of such restaurants in my
3 neighborhood.
4 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Sir, could you,
5 please, answer the question? Answer the
6 direct question, please.
7 BY MR. KLINE:
8 Q And the question is you want to
9 see restaurants like Hank's remain viable in
10 your neighborhood, don't you?
11 A Like Hank's now. The question is
12 like Hank's now.
13 Q No.
14 A Yes.
15 Q Like Hank's and similar
16 restaurants. You want to make sure that they
17 continue and are able to exist in your
18 neighborhood economically, correct? Because
19 that's one of the reasons that you moved to
20 the neighborhood, isn't it?
21 A Yes, that's correct.

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1 A That's --
2 Q You have answered it.
3 A I'm answering like Hank's now.
4 Q You answered.
5 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Hang on a
6 second.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Hang on a
9 second. You have answered. You already
10 answered.
11 BY MR. KLINE:
12 Q Now, you talked about that you had
13 experiences with people sitting on your front
14 wall and what have you, correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Right. And you don't really know
17 where those people came from, do you?
18 A In most cases, I don't.
19 Q Okay.
20 A In some cases, I do.
21 Q Okay. And you were here when
22 Ellen Kirsh testified earlier?

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1 A Who was that?
2 Q The woman that testified in favor
3 of Hank's Oyster Bar at the beginning of the
4 hearing.
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. So you were here for that
7 testimony?
8 A I heard her testimony.
9 Q Do you know her? She lives in
10 your neighborhood.
11 A No, I don't know her.
12 Q Okay. Do you know Bill Zybach,
13 who testified at the last hearing? He lives
14 in the Cairo.
15 A No.
16 Q Okay. You say Ms. Kirsh though,
17 correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Is she indicative of the type of
20 patron that you see when you go to Hank's?
21 A I see a wide variety of patrons at
22 Hank's that are reflective of the kind of

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1 people that patronize the establishments in
2 that area.
3 Q Well, there are different types of
4 establishments in that area, aren't there?
6 Q Aren't there other establishments
7 in that neighborhood?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Let me finish, because --
10 A Yes.
11 Q -- this man over here, he is
12 trying to take everything down and has a hard
13 time if we speak at the same time. So let's
14 try to go one at a time.
15 A Okay.
16 Q So there are a variety of
17 establishments in the neighborhood, correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q All right. And some of them are
20 more alcohol-oriented, more bar-oriented, more
21 sort of nightclub-oriented, correct?
22 A Yes, currently, yes.

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1 Q And isn't it more likely that the
2 people that are causing the disturbances to
3 you come from those establishments than from
4 Hank's?
5 A My living room, I look out at
6 Hank's. My bedroom, I have a small balcony
7 that I look out over the terrace area where
8 Hank's patrons are either waiting on the
9 street or drinking and I would say not
10 necessarily.
11 Q So those people that are eating or
12 waiting at Hank's are disruptive to you in
13 some way? Is that your testimony?
14 A No, I hear those people. Those
15 people then go in and continue to enjoy their
16 evening and sometimes come directly from
17 Hank's to various places outside my bedroom
18 window or outside our windows.
19 Q Okay.
20 A But Hank's patrons are not some
21 very, very distinctive group. They are --
22 like other restaurant goers, they get loud

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1 and --
2 Q They are different than the people
3 that frequent the nightclub and tavern type
4 drinking establishments in the neighborhood,
5 aren't they?
6 A What would be an example of a
7 nightclub or tavern --
8 Q Sir, you don't ask the questions
9 today. I get to ask the questions.
10 A Can you --
11 Q If you don't know, you don't know,
12 that's fine.
13 A I don't know.
14 Q All right.
15 MR. KLINE: I have no further
16 questions. Thank you.
18 MEMBER NOPHLIN: I have a
19 question, Mr. Chair.
21 Nophlin.
22 MEMBER NOPHLIN: You mentioned in

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1 your testimony that you had several issues.
2 Did you have -- have you reported it to the
3 Commission here or to the ANCs that you had
4 some of these issues or problems?
5 MR. SOWERS: No.
6 MEMBER NOPHLIN: Oh, do you have
7 anything in writing?
8 MR. SOWERS: No, that's one of the
9 reasons I am here now is to give some
10 expression to that. I'm a resident. It is
11 not my regular pattern to find avenues to
12 express those issues. I will talk to patrons
13 and ask them or ex-patrons and I will ask them
14 to, you know, abide by the standards that I
15 think are reasonable.
16 I have attended other -- for other
17 establishments that are planning changes of
18 order of magnitude that will have an impact or
19 an effect on the balance and quality of life
20 for residents, including people that are
21 giving testimony on both sides of this issue.
22 MEMBER NOPHLIN: Okay. No other

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1 questions.
3 Member questions? Sir, I do have one question
4 for you.
5 How long have you been living here
6 in the District?
7 MR. SOWERS: Since 1991.
8 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: And is it fair
9 to say in the -- 20 years you've been here?
10 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
11 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Yes, I'm just
12 right there with you. Is it fair to say that
13 in the 20 years that you have lived here, you
14 have dined in an establishment that is located
15 next to a residence?
16 MR. SOWERS: I don't know. I
17 couldn't say yes.
18 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So in all the
19 time that you have ever gone out to a
20 restaurant in the District of Columbia in the
21 20 years, that's, what's that, almost 7,200
22 days that you have lived in the District of

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1 Columbia --
2 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
3 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: -- married, got
4 a couple of kids, for all the times you have
5 gone out to a restaurant, you can never
6 imagine that you have ever dined in a
7 restaurant that is located literally adjacent
8 to somebody's home in the same instance as
9 this?
10 MR. SOWERS: Well, I learned today
11 that I have been to Hank's and Hank's --
12 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: No, no. No,
13 no, you've got to answer the question I'm
14 asking you. Hank's doesn't currently operate
15 next to a residence.
16 What I'm asking you is do you
17 believe you have ever --
18 MR. SOWERS: Yes, yes.
19 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: -- dined --
20 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
21 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So you have.
22 So it's okay for you to go to someone else's

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1 neighborhood and perhaps have a dining
2 experience that's pleasurable that happens to
3 be next to somebody else's house, but your
4 objection is that when it comes to your
5 neighborhood, you are not real comfortable
6 with that?
7 MR. SOWERS: Well, that was in my
8 neighborhood.
9 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So you have
10 been to a dining establishment located next to
11 a residence in your own neighborhood?
12 MR. SOWERS: Apparently.
13 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: And yet you
14 somehow have an objection to this particular
15 licensee opening up next to a house in your
16 neighborhood. How do you reconcile that?
17 MR. SOWERS: It's the nature of
18 the scale, the expansion. And the elimination
19 of any kind of a buffer.
20 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So is it fair
21 to --
22 MR. SOWERS: As -- to clarify, as

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1 the testimony of the gentleman whose house is
2 immediately abutting the restaurant --
3 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Yes.
4 MR. SOWERS: -- had been led to
5 believe it would be some other sort of
6 business that would be more transitional.
7 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So is it fair
8 of me to characterize that you are okay with
9 some restaurants abutting housing, but this
10 one, you just are uncomfortable with?
11 MR. SOWERS: (No audible answer.)
12 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Generally, your
13 silence is consent.
14 MR. SOWERS: I think it's a
15 difficult question. It's an ambiguous
16 question, in my mind, but --
17 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Well, I've
18 never seen you before. I have never known you
19 to be part of a protest process.
20 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
21 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Your face isn't
22 familiar to me. You have never come and

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1 objected to any other license that has ever
2 been tried to be acquired by an ABC licensee
3 ever in the two and three quarter years that
4 I have been sitting on this Board.
5 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
6 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: I could check
7 the record since 1991. So to me, it appears
8 that this is the only problem you have so far.
9 Like you have appeared for this one, because
10 this particular licensee is a challenge to
11 you.
12 But what I hear you saying is that
13 you have been to other dining establishments
14 where restaurants are located next to people's
15 homes, but you never protested them or never
16 really had a problem with them.
17 So I'm just trying to get an idea
18 of why it's okay to have it in some places,
19 why it's okay to ask the Board to make a
20 purely subjective decision, right, purely
21 subjective that it is not okay for this owner
22 to expand, but it's okay for others to be next

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1 to residences.
2 And I'm trying to get that all
3 equaled up in my head and I'm having trouble
4 doing that.
5 MR. SOWERS: Yes, yes. Well, I
6 think that what you are seeing is an expansion
7 of what was intended in the original layout of
8 a neighborhood to be a restricted limited
9 commercial area with a diversity of businesses
10 to provide services to that neighborhood and
11 perhaps other clients from other areas.
12 And my concern is that the
13 expansion is undercutting that character. And
14 I have actually been to meetings of other
15 nature with some of the other establishments
16 that are expanding and not before this Board,
17 but -- and I'm finding that I'm being pulled
18 into that, because, as you say, I am attracted
19 to that mix.
20 But if the mix is going too far,
21 then against my desires, I'm being pulled into
22 the process. I don't want to be before the

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1 Board. I would rather be sitting and working
2 on my report that I have this afternoon. So
3 I'm here because I feel compelled.
4 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So just to make
5 sure I'm --
6 MR. SOWERS: In a sense.
7 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: -- thinking the
8 right way. The space that Leeds is proposing
9 to go into is actually zoned for the use it is
10 intended to be used for, correct?
11 MR. SOWERS: I believe that's
12 correct.
13 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So zoning-wise,
14 from a big picture perspective, when the city
15 lays down the Zoning Plan, the city and its
16 citizens have intended this particular space
17 to be used for the purpose that she is
18 planning to use it for.
19 MR. SOWERS: When I purchased my
20 property, I don't think that was the case.
21 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: No, I'm not
22 talking about that.

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1 MR. SOWERS: There have been
2 changes that I'm --
3 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: No, no. I'm
4 talking about right now. So as she moves into
5 that space, I just want to make sure that it
6 is actually zoned right for the purpose that
7 she is intending it for.
8 MR. SOWERS: Well, we have
9 discussed the zoning, the particular nature of
10 the Commercial Zoning. I'm not an expert, so
11 I can't inform you.
12 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Do you believe
13 that it is the appropriate use for the zoning?
14 MR. SOWERS: I believe that it is
15 an allowable use, as I understand.
16 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So it's just
17 not the preferred use, in your opinion?
18 MR. SOWERS: That's correct.
19 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So then under
20 that rubric then, the Zoning Laws really are
21 sort of then arbitrary, right? Because in one
22 neighborhood they may decide that even though

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1 legally it could be a restaurant, boy we would
2 kind of really prefer a funeral parlor,
3 because we don't really like restaurants. We
4 would rather be around a funeral parlor.
5 So ABC Board, please, don't let
6 the ABC licensee in there. We would prefer
7 for a funeral parlor. So then what you are
8 asking us to do is make completely subjective
9 decisions across the city about what we think
10 are appropriate uses.
11 Well, what happens when you move
12 out and the next tenant comes in and says
13 whew, I don't like living next to a funeral
14 parlor. Man, I wish that was a restaurant.
15 At what point is there any objectivity?
16 MR. SOWERS: Well, I think the
17 objectivity could probably be found by
18 carrying out the types of studies that we
19 don't seem to have data on, the impact on
20 property values, the noise levels, the quality
21 of life indicators.
22 And it is -- I'm trying to give

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1 some testimony and my testimony as an
2 individual, I'm a homeowner and a resident in
3 the neighborhood, so it's one point of view.
5 MR. SOWERS: And I hope it helps
6 you to understand and make what have to be
7 judgment calls, I would assume --
8 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Right.
9 MR. SOWERS: -- on where should it
10 stop. Right now, the zoning stops at, as you
11 say, 1701. Why not go all the way to 1741 and
12 be next door to the woman that came in from
13 Potomac? The people that are coming in and
14 investing have some -- you have to make a
15 judgment as to what kind of neighborhood we
16 want to have going forward.
17 And so that's all I'm trying to do
18 is help clarify that by being here today.
19 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Yes. Yes, no,
20 I totally get that, because here is the
21 problem, right? So the problem is that the
22 law says you can be open until 2:00 and 3:00.

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1 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
2 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: And the Zoning
3 Laws say that you can open up certain kinds of
4 businesses in certain areas. So any deviation
5 from that at all, whether it is through a
6 voluntary agreement or a protest or anything,
7 any deviation from what the law allows is just
8 that, a subjective deviation based on
9 something, a bunch of residents not being
10 happy, thousands of residents. Whatever it
11 is, it's a deviation from what is allowable.
12 And so what you are asking us to
13 do is not allow somebody to do something that
14 the law allows them to do, based on the fact
15 that you just don't really want it.
16 So if we allowed that to happen
17 across the city where every time somebody in
18 the neighborhood just didn't really want a
19 business expanding or being open until 3:00,
20 what's the law good for, right? The law is
21 there.
22 My take is, in this whole process,

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1 if you don't like the fact that a restaurant
2 can go in there, lobby for a zoning change.
3 If you don't like the fact that she can be
4 open until 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning, then
5 lobby for a law change and get the law
6 changed.
7 Because what the ABC Board has
8 been asked to do is to make -- I don't know
9 how many VAs we have, I'll ballpark it, 1,250,
10 right, out of 1,700 ABC licensed
11 establishments. So we have 1,250 variations
12 on the law that we have to enforce. And quite
13 frankly, I'm kind of tired of it.
14 So having random variations in the
15 law is just difficult for us to get our hands
16 around.
17 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
18 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So community
19 groups saying yes, well, the law really lets
20 them do it, but we just don't feel like having
21 it here. Well, if we let every community
22 group get that, there would be no where to go.

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1 Like right now, I love the fact
2 that I can go to Tryst and get some food late
3 at night. I love the fact that there is a new
4 diner on H Street, 24 hours a day on the
5 weekends. Can you image that, 24 hour
6 service, right? I like the fact that I can go
7 there.
8 I'm not so sure if the guy that
9 lives next door is real happy about it, but
10 I'm glad the city has a choice. You know,
11 imagine if all the cafes in Paris had to close
12 at 11:00 a.m., because people didn't want
13 noise. It really wouldn't really be a very
14 good impact on the city at large.
15 So what I'm trying to balance is
16 the city at large versus this gentleman who is
17 not going to be able to sleep for the next 45
18 years of his life, hopefully, 50 years of his
19 life because he has got somebody now making
20 some noise next door. That's a pretty hard
21 balance to make.
22 And I'm trying very hard to listen

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1 to your points of view about why that is
2 important. I'm just having trouble squaring
3 that up in my head.
4 So, Board Members, any other
5 questions? Yes, Mr. Gandhi?
6 MEMBER GANDHI: Thank you very
7 much. Well, first, I do appreciate you being
8 here, because I don't live in that community
9 and getting the residents' viewpoint is
10 appreciated.
11 My question is I heard a lot about
12 parking. And you talked about parking, but
13 when I was talking to the resident that
14 directly abuts the property, you know, noise
15 mitigation was a large issue.
16 Can you talk to me about what
17 issues you may believe the expansion would
18 cause on noise, especially the outdoor area?
19 MR. SOWERS: Well, I think that
20 the -- I was kind of blindsided here that
21 there was a proposed back terrace. While that
22 doesn't immediately, I hope, reverberate back

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1 to my residence, I know from walking my dog
2 around those alleys that, you know, even a
3 scuff of a shoe echoes. And so I'm very
4 concerned about the acoustics, in a general
5 sense, for that back terrace area.
6 And so I hadn't really thought
7 about that, because there was no reference to
8 it in anything I had ever seen on this
9 proposed expansion.
10 So I'm concerned about the number
11 of people out on the streets in the sidewalk.
12 Everybody seems to want to expand and, at some
13 point, it becomes cavernous and you change the
14 character of the neighborhood.
15 And I know I live close enough
16 that I'm impacted by that noise directly. I
17 can't leave my windows open. I put headphones
18 or earphones on to sleep.
19 MEMBER GANDHI: How so? I mean,
20 even though you are --
21 MR. SOWERS: If I go out, I have a
22 little balcony off my bedroom that is more

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1 decorative than usable, except for if I want
2 to see a parade on 17th Street or something.
3 But if I stand on that, I look
4 directly down onto the -- both terraces at
5 whatever it is, 150 or 200 feet away. So that
6 noise, I can hear the general hum of or drone
7 of noise. And that noise, as you get later
8 into the evening, becomes much more
9 disruptive, as things quiet down.
10 MEMBER GANDHI: Do you hear them
11 now?
12 MR. SOWERS: Yes, I hear them now,
13 yes. I can hear them, especially as it gets
14 quieter and the main source of noise is -- are
15 suddenly loud conversations, laughs or often
16 times arguments from that terrace, yes. I do
17 have -- you know, I'm that close that I do
18 have direct concerns.
19 But that's -- I'm not protesting
20 that in the sense that I do expect some of
21 that coming off of the sidewalk restaurants
22 and those amenities that are offered. I just

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1 worry about -
2 MEMBER GANDHI: What's your
3 biggest problem? Is it --
4 MR. SOWERS: My biggest problem is
5 that it's just crossed a threshold and there
6 needs to be some balance between the quality
7 of the neighborhood it attracts people from,
8 like myself and others --
9 MEMBER GANDHI: But as it relates
10 to --
11 MR. SOWERS: -- from Potomac.
12 MEMBER GANDHI: I'm sorry to
13 interrupt.
14 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
15 MEMBER GANDHI: But as it relates
16 to your issues of this particular expansion.
17 Forget what you want to be there.
18 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
19 MEMBER GANDHI: Right?
20 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
21 MEMBER GANDHI: I mean, do you
22 believe that it will affect the peace, order,

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1 quiet? Is that the main reason for you coming
2 here today?
3 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
4 MEMBER GANDHI: Or is it the
5 parking or is it both?
6 MR. SOWERS: It's both. I have a
7 hard time putting my finger on the parking.
8 Somebody would have to do some sort of a
9 study, but we can't park and yes, you can
10 park, but I will drive around for half an
11 hour. People that live in my household will
12 spend the night somewhere else rather than
13 coming back to try to park if they have that
14 opportunity. Parking is a big issue and it is
15 certainly compounded by, you know, expanding
16 night establishments.
17 MEMBER GANDHI: Okay. Thank you.
18 And thank you for coming today.
19 MR. SOWERS: Thank you.
21 any other questions?
22 MEMBER JONES: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

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1 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Go ahead, sir.
2 MEMBER JONES: Thank you, Mr.
3 Chairman. I just want to follow-up. You said
4 it crossed a threshold, it being this
5 expansion. And that's the reason why you are
6 here to protest it. Is that a fair summary?
7 MR. SOWERS: Yes, yes, that's a --
8 MEMBER JONES: What's the
9 threshold? Since this crossed it, what is the
10 threshold?
11 MR. SOWERS: Well, I think the
12 threshold, you know, is, again, as I think it
13 is in -- on everybody, it's somewhat
14 subjective.
15 MEMBER JONES: Well, what's
16 your's? I mean, I'm asking you.
17 MR. SOWERS: It's the noise level,
18 the time spent parking. A combination of
19 people --
20 MEMBER JONES: Can you quantify
21 that? You're speaking generally. So you are
22 telling me that this crossed the threshold.

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1 So in order for me to make a non-subjective
2 evaluation of --
3 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
4 MEMBER JONES: -- what that
5 threshold is, I kind of need you to help me
6 with that.
7 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
8 MEMBER JONES: Is the fact that
9 they are introducing 64 additional patrons,
10 you're telling me that that has crossed a
11 threshold, right? The fact that they have an
12 outdoor patio area, that has crossed a
13 threshold?
14 Now, for me to understand that, I
15 would need to know what your threshold was,
16 which would be, oh, okay, well, if it was 34
17 people and maybe two seats on the outdoor
18 patio or 34 people and no outdoor patio,
19 that's your threshold. And at that point,
20 it's okay. Do you understand what I'm saying?
21 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
22 MEMBER JONES: Okay. So tell me

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1 what your threshold is. Because you clearly
2 told us that you felt like this establishment
3 had crossed a threshold.
4 MR. SOWERS: I -- for me, the
5 threshold is pushing alcoholic establishments
6 further up away from 17th Street into the
7 residential areas. And so physically, that
8 noise -- I mean, it's direct for the immediate
9 neighbor, but I see that and the counsel for
10 the restaurant has said this may be happening
11 in your neighborhood or on your side, because
12 I'm now informed that there is another
13 potential location.
14 So, for me, that 17th Street
15 commercial strip is not compatible with
16 expansion into the residential streets that
17 abut it.
18 MEMBER JONES: Okay. So if
19 direct --
20 MR. SOWERS: So it's a physical
21 direction, rather than an absolute scale. I
22 mean, if Hank's expansion were back towards

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1 17th, I would be looking at it differently,
2 you know.
3 MEMBER JONES: Okay. So if it was
4 -- if it just happened to be in the other
5 direction, so I guess, essentially, two houses
6 over. So it's moving right now one house to
7 the left. If you are looking at the front of
8 the building --
9 MR. SOWERS: Correct.
10 MEMBER JONES: -- it's expanding
11 one house to the left. So you are saying if
12 it was two houses over, you would be totally
13 fine with it?
14 MR. SOWERS: I would be -- you are
15 asking me about a threshold.
16 MEMBER JONES: Yes. I'm asking
17 you about --
18 MR. SOWERS: I think the --
19 MEMBER JONES: -- you defined --
20 MR. SOWERS: I think we are
21 already --
22 MEMBER JONES: Hold on. Let me

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1 ask this question.
2 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
3 MEMBER JONES: Did you define your
4 threshold for me just now?
5 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
6 MEMBER JONES: And you defined it
7 as being movement to, what I'll call, the left
8 or up 17th Street.
9 MR. SOWERS: Away from --
10 MEMBER JONES: Away.
11 MR. SOWERS: -- 17th Street.
12 MEMBER JONES: Into the
13 residential, right?
14 MR. SOWERS: Into the residential
15 area.
16 MEMBER JONES: So that's your
17 threshold?
18 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
19 MEMBER JONES: So any movement or
20 expansion in the other direction, should be
21 fine with you, based on how you just defined
22 your threshold?

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1 MR. SOWERS: That's the most
2 important criteria for my -- for this
3 particular -- you are asking about this
4 particular --
5 MEMBER JONES: I'm asking about
6 this when you said --
7 MR. SOWERS: -- this particular
8 approval process.
9 MEMBER JONES: Okay. So in other
10 words, there is absolutely positively nothing
11 that they can do, from your standpoint, in
12 order to meet your threshold by moving in the
13 direction that they propose to move in?
14 MR. SOWERS: Well, we have
15 discussed some mitigation measures that while
16 they might not satisfy me, they would be --
17 MEMBER JONES: I'm asking about
18 you.
19 MR. SOWERS: -- improvements.
20 MEMBER JONES: Your threshold,
21 what would satisfy you? Based on what you
22 just now told me --

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1 MR. SOWERS: Yes.
2 MEMBER JONES: -- how you defined
3 the threshold --
4 MR. SOWERS: Yes, that would be to
5 see any expansion of Hank's moved back towards
6 17th Street.
7 MEMBER JONES: Okay. So --
8 MR. SOWERS: As opposed to in
9 toward the residential area.
10 MR. SOWERS: So just to make sure
11 I'm clear. There is absolutely positively
12 nothing that they could do in order to meet
13 your threshold, based on what they are
14 proposing to do as far as their move up 17?
15 MR. SOWERS: Correct.
16 MEMBER JONES: Okay. Thank you.
17 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Board, any
19 other questions? Mr. Hibey?
20 MR. HIBEY: No.

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1 BY MR. KLINE:
2 Q So if I understand correctly, your
3 issue is the direction in which they are
4 expanding?
5 A That's the most important
6 threshold that I feel is being compromised by
7 this plan.
8 Q Okay. All right. All right. And
9 you are aware that there is a zoning
10 proceeding that took place after you moved
11 into the neighborhood to rezone this property?
12 A No, I was not.
13 Q Okay.
14 A This --
15 Q How is it that you ended up here
16 today?
17 A I ended up here today because,
18 generally, as you live in the neighborhood,
19 you learn about plans. And I wanted to be
20 better. I had, you know, learned about the
21 Hank's expansion. It has not been easy. I
22 learned more about it by being here than

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1 having a plan presented and described.
2 So as I understood, I have talked
3 to, you know, people that are Hank's employees
4 and tried to understand what was being
5 proposed in the past and I'm here today,
6 because I've learned enough that I felt
7 compelled to be here.
8 Q Let me simplify it. Isn't it true
9 that Mr. Mallof recruited you to be here
10 today?
11 MR. HIBEY: He is a protestant.
12 Objection.
13 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Sure.
14 MR. HIBEY: He is a protestant.
15 MR. KLINE: Is he a protestant?
16 I'll withdraw it. I apologize.
18 BY MR. KLINE:
19 Q How is it that you became a
20 protestant? Were you recruited by Mr. Mallof
21 to be a protestant?
22 A I'm a protestant because I am part

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1 of the Dupont Circle Citizens Association. I
2 pay attention to my neighborhood. I support
3 the DCCA. I volunteer and support the house
4 tour and I try to get to know my neighbors.
5 And I keep an eye on the types of businesses
6 and the relationships that I can have.
7 That's how I met -- I'm sorry,
8 your --
9 MR. POOZESH: Abdi Poozesh.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, by -- because I
11 try to give business to my neighbors, Mr.
12 Poozesh --
13 MR. POOZESH: Poozesh.
14 THE WITNESS: Poozesh has framed
15 my son's diploma in the last six months and so
16 we find ourselves here sharing concerns about
17 the nature of this change.
19 have anything further. Thank you.
21 much, sir.
22 MR. SOWERS: Thank you.

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1 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Thank you. Mr.
2 Hibey?
3 MR. HIBEY: We have Alaire
4 Rieffel.
5 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Hibey, you
6 are trending up around an hour, so, as far as
7 my calc, just under an hour as far as my
8 calculation goes.
9 MR. HIBEY: Just a quick
10 clarification question. I probably asked
11 maybe 10 minutes of and the Board and Mr.
12 Kline have asked maybe 15 minutes of
13 questions.
15 MR. HIBEY: Is all that time
16 counted against me?
17 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: I'm trying to
18 count all of the time that you are talking to
19 your witnesses answering your questions and
20 revolving around the stuff you've got to, so
21 I might have miscalculated by a little bit,
22 but we will keep our eyes on it.

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1 How many more witnesses do you
2 plan to call?
3 MR. HIBEY: I have three, but
4 again, I probably have 15 minutes tops of my
5 own time. I mean, I'm not the one --
7 MR. HIBEY: -- asking --
8 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: We'll keep an
9 eye on it.
11 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Will you raise
12 your right hand for me?
13 Whereupon,
14 ALAIRE RIEFFEL
20 much.
22 BY MR. HIBEY:

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1 Q Good afternoon. Could you,
2 please, state your name for the record?
3 A Yes. My name is Alaire, that's
4 spelled A-L-A-I-R-E and my last name is
5 Rieffel spelled R-I-E double F, as in Frank,
6 E-L.
7 Q Okay. Where do you live?
8 A I live at 1709 Q Street.
9 Q Who do you live there with?
10 A I live there with my husband of 41
11 years.
12 Q Okay. How long have you lived at
13 that address?
14 A We have lived there for 37 years,
15 since 1973.
16 Q Okay. And you are involved in the
17 neighborhood and involved in the community.
18 Could you just tell the Board a little bit
19 about your involvement in the community and
20 neighborhood?
21 A Yes. Both Lex and I have been
22 involved since we bought our house. In that

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1 case, in 1977, perhaps, I was president of the
2 Roth School PTA. From there, I went on to be
3 elected as the Ward 2 representative on the
4 D.C. Board of Education, that was beginning in
5 1978.
6 I have also served on the Advisory
7 Neighborhood Commission and currently I am
8 Treasurer of Dupont Circle Village.
9 Q Okay. Thank you for that. Why --
10 well, does Hank's business operations affect
11 you and your home?
12 A Yes, of course.
13 Q And how so?
14 A It adds to the already excessive
15 amount of noise, traffic, lack of parking,
16 inebriated individuals and trash.
17 Q Okay. Well, with respect to the
18 noise from bars and restaurants near your
19 home, how has that directly impacted you?
20 MR. KLINE: Objection. We are not
21 talking about bars and restaurants. We are
22 talking about Hank's.

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1 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: That is
2 correct.
3 BY MR. HIBEY:
4 Q How has Hank's directly impacted
5 you, in terms of noise?
6 A It is hard to separate Hank's
7 noise from other establishments' noise. In
8 general, I think Hank's is -- contributes its
9 fair share of problems in terms of inebriated
10 people.
11 For example, with -- about a month
12 ago, I stepped out on my front stoop in the
13 morning to pick up the paper and there was a
14 gentleman well-dressed, very clean, not your
15 standard skid row bum, passed out drunk on our
16 front stoop right next to the front door.
17 He fit the profile of a Hank's
18 customer. He was too drunk to -- I certainly
19 wasn't going to stand there in my bathrobe and
20 interrogate him. I called the police and he
21 moved along. But he lived just a block north
22 of us on R Street.

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1 Q And you have no idea where he had
2 been though, right?
3 A I have no idea where he had been.
4 Q All right.
5 A He stayed too long.
6 Q Okay. And so are you opposed to
7 Hank's expanding into 1622 Q?
8 A Oh, absolutely.
9 Q Why?
10 A Because we already have way too
11 many liquor licensed establishments in the
12 neighborhood. I supported the moratorium many
13 years ago. And I continue to support it, but
14 since then, of course, we have only lost
15 ground.
17 MR. HIBEY: I have no more
18 questions.
21 BY MR. KLINE:
22 Q The profile of a Hank's customer,

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1 you were here when Mr. Sowers testified?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Would that be the profile that he
4 gave of a Hank's customer?
5 A I don't recall what he said, but
6 my concept of a Hank's customer is relatively
7 well-to-do because it's a relatively expensive
8 restaurant. And I assume that it is not one
9 of the favorite places people go to do binge
10 drinking.
11 Q Okay.
13 Thank you.
15 MEMBER BROOKS: Yes, sir. Ms.
16 Rieffel, you had indicated that you suspect
17 Hank's of having a problem with trash, trash
18 in the neighborhood, adding to trash in the
19 neighborhood. How so?
20 MS. RIEFFEL: I think that all of
21 the liquor licensed establishments and many of
22 the food establishments that don't serve

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1 liquor, such as McDonalds, the customers leave
2 the restaurants, spread out in front of our
3 house. They sit on my wall, too. And they
4 leave behind all sorts of trash, cups,
5 napkins, empty bottles, what have you.
6 The neighborhood it's very -- it's
7 a big job to keep just the front of our house
8 policed and cleaned up. And often there is
9 vomit, often there is urination in our front
10 yard. I see that fairly frequently. And it
11 is not by any means the first time that a
12 drunk has been passed out by our front door.
13 MEMBER BROOKS: Okay. But Hank's
14 is an eat-in restaurant. Now, I'm just
15 curious about the trash that you --
16 MS. RIEFFEL: Well, unfortunately,
17 the trash doesn't come with any
18 identification, as a rule, other than
19 McDonalds paper cups maybe. So I can't tell
20 you what is Hank's trash and what's the trash
21 from say some of the other restaurants on 17th
22 Street.

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1 MEMBER BROOKS: Okay. So what
2 kind of trash do you think may come from
3 Hank's?
4 MS. RIEFFEL: Whatever people
5 happen to be carrying with them and they don't
6 want to carry any more, cigarette butts,
7 that's the thing.
8 MEMBER BROOKS: I see. All right.
9 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Any other
11 questions, Board Members?
12 MEMBER NOPHLIN: I have a
13 question.
15 Nophlin.
16 MEMBER NOPHLIN: In your testimony
17 you said that there were some issues, I guess,
18 the noise as well as trash. Have you reported
19 that to the ANCs? Have you tried to work with
20 the establishment to see if you can get that
21 corrected?
22 MS. RIEFFEL: Well, certainly.

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1 First of all, if it's a matter the police
2 would attend to, we call the police. Both my
3 husband and I have been members of the
4 Advisory Neighborhood Commission. We are in
5 almost daily contact with our own ANC
6 Commissioner now and over the years.
7 We are also members of Dupont
8 Circle Citizens Association, which is well-
9 involved with these matters also. So, yes, we
10 complain. We do what we can and we have been
11 doing that for 37 years.
12 MEMBER NOPHLIN: Thank you, Mr.
13 Chair.
14 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Any questions,
15 Board Members?
16 Ma'am, I have a couple questions
17 for you. How long ago did you buy your place?
18 MS. RIEFFEL: 37 years ago.
19 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: And what has
20 happened to the property value since you
21 bought it?
22 MS. RIEFFEL: The property values

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1 have gone up significantly.
2 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Okay. So since
3 you bought it, the property values are up?
4 MS. RIEFFEL: Of course.
5 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Have you ever
6 been to Hank's?
7 MS. RIEFFEL: We have been there
8 twice.
9 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Have you ever
10 seen anybody binge drinking inside of Hank's?
11 MS. RIEFFEL: I have seen people
12 who seem to be happy and noisy standing
13 outside Hank's waiting for a table.
14 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Have you ever--
15 MS. RIEFFEL: They continue
16 drinking and it certainly would qualify as
17 binge drinking.
18 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: No. I didn't
19 ask you that question. I asked you have you
20 ever seen anybody binge drinking inside of
21 Hank's?
22 MS. RIEFFEL: No, I have only been

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1 there twice.
2 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Well, okay.
3 Because you testified that people do binge
4 drinking inside of Hank's and places like
5 Hank's.
6 MS. RIEFFEL: No, I didn't say
7 that.
8 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: We will reroll
9 the record for you, but that was your
10 insinuation. So what I'm trying to figure out
11 is how you come to believe that people binge
12 drink inside of this establishment.
13 MS. RIEFFEL: I think people binge
14 drink on occasion inside any establishment
15 that serves liquor.
16 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So then you are
17 against any liquor establishment?
18 MS. RIEFFEL: I'm against
19 additional liquor establishment seats.
20 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: But what about
21 the people that are currently binge drinking
22 inside of the bars now?

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1 MS. RIEFFEL: I would be very
2 happy to close a lot of those bars.
3 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So you are just
4 generally against bars?
5 MS. RIEFFEL: I'm not against
6 bars. I'm not a teetotaler.
8 MS. RIEFFEL: But 17th Street is
9 becoming another 18th Street in Adams Morgan.
11 MS. RIEFFEL: Too much, too much
12 restaurants, liquor licensed or otherwise and
13 not enough of businesses that would add more
14 to the community.
15 For example, I can't think of a
16 single place in the District where one can buy
17 toys.
18 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: That what?
19 MS. RIEFFEL: Where one can buy
20 toys for children, grandchildren.
21 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Well, we don't
22 regulate those places.

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1 MS. RIEFFEL: Well, I understand
2 that.
3 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So I --
4 MS. RIEFFEL: But if we had fewer
5 restaurants, there would be opportunities for
6 other types of businesses so we had a better
7 balance.
8 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Well, on the
9 whole toy thing, I recommend Target. They are
10 up on 14th and Park. I think you could
11 probably do pretty well there for toys if
12 that's what your goal is.
13 But I will say that I'm having a
14 little bit of trouble with your
15 characterization of binge drinking, and hang
16 on a second, Mr. Hibey, and attributing the
17 drunks that you have seen outside to Hank's,
18 because that was the insinuation where you
19 found people drunk in the neighborhood and you
20 sort of just generally attributed them to
21 coming from Hank's. And, therefore, you are
22 just sort of against that expansion.

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1 And I'm trying to generate in my
2 mind how you have connected that binge
3 drinking activity to Hank's, in particular.
4 MS. RIEFFEL: I'm not connecting
5 it to Hank's in particular. I never said I
6 was.
7 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Okay. So I
8 misheard that.
9 MS. RIEFFEL: I guess you did.
10 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Okay. So when
11 it comes to Hank's then, then you should
12 really be concerned because there is not binge
13 drinking happening at Hank's.
14 MS. RIEFFEL: I don't know if
15 there is or not. It is an expensive place.
16 My husband and I can no longer afford it in
17 our budget.
18 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: I'm sorry, I
19 missed that last part.
20 MS. RIEFFEL: My husband and I can
21 not afford to eat at Hank's. It's expensive.
22 So I really can't comment on what goes on

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1 inside that. We have ate there twice in its
2 first year and that was the last time.
3 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: But you are
4 against the business expanding, because then
5 you think that will contribute to more sort of
6 drunkenness or problems.
7 MS. RIEFFEL: It will contribute
8 to drunkenness. It will contribute to liquor.
9 I mean, litter. It will contribute to parking
10 problems, which are already horrible. And I
11 have to add we spent about $300,000 three
12 years ago to move our bedroom from the front
13 of the house to the back just because of the
14 noise coming from 17th and Q.
16 MS. RIEFFEL: And that's a lot of
17 money.
18 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Oh, no doubt.
19 It's a ton of money. Yes, I'm just trying to
20 get a handle on how this particular
21 establishment's expansion is going to
22 contribute. And what I'm hearing you say is

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1 that you don't really have any particular way
2 of knowing that Hank's particularly causes
3 this trouble, it's just the general idea of
4 having more seats and more availability for
5 people to go to these establishments, which
6 contribute, generally speaking, to the noise
7 and the drunkenness.
8 MS. RIEFFEL: That's right. You
9 don't have to be drunk to make noise when you
10 are going back to your car. A lot of
11 problems, for example, the noise problems are
12 lovers' quarrels. One person will be on side
13 of the street, the other on their side of the
14 street and they will be screaming at each
15 other across the street. That happens --
16 well, since we moved our bedroom, we don't
17 notice it as much, but it happens probably
18 once a week.
20 any other questions? Mr. Kline? I'm sorry,
21 Mr. Hibey, do you have anything you would like
22 to ask your witness again? Any redirect?

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1 MR. HIBEY: I just want to point
2 out that she said that --
3 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: No, no, don't
4 point anything out. I'm asking you if you
5 would like to ask your witness any other
6 questions?
7 MR. HIBEY: Okay.
9 BY MR. HIBEY:
10 Q How did you describe the Hank's
11 clientele earlier?
12 A They appeared to be well-dressed,
13 well-educated and generally able to afford
14 Hank's.
15 Q Okay. And you said and not binge
16 drinking, correct?
17 A No, I don't have any reason to
18 think people go there to binge drink. I
19 imagine they go around the corner to Fox and
20 Hounds.
21 Q Okay. Thanks.
22 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Well, we will

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1 certainly pull the transcript and try to
2 figure that out, if we feel like we need to.
3 Any other questions, Board Members? I'm
4 sorry, Mr. Kline?
5 MR. KLINE: Just a couple.
7 BY MR. KLINE:
8 Q So you indicated that you were a
9 supporter of the initial moratorium, right?
10 A That's right.
11 Q All right. This is a continuation
12 of the feelings that were expressed by you and
13 others in the moratorium hearing, isn't it?
14 A That's right.
15 Q Okay. So that's your basic
16 problem with the expansion is that it violates
17 the moratorium as envisioned by you, correct?
18 A That's right.
19 Q Okay.
20 MR. KLINE: Thank you. I have no

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1 much, Mr. Kline. Mr. Hibey, your next
2 witness?
3 MR. HIBEY: Robin Diener, please.
4 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Ms. Diener,
5 would you raise your right hand for me?
6 Whereupon,
7 ROBIN DIENER
13 much. Your witness, Mr. Hibey.
15 BY MR. HIBEY:
16 Q Please, state your name.
17 A My name is Robin Diener, D-I-E-N-
18 E-R.
19 Q Okay. Can you tell us where you
20 live?
21 A I live at 1612 Corcoran Street
22 between 16th and 17th.

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1 Q And you understand that Hank's has
2 requested an expansion from 1624 to 1622 Q
3 Street, right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. And what is your opinion on
6 their proposed expansion?
7 A Well, in addition to being a
8 resident who lives very close by to Hank's, I
9 am the President of the Dupont Circle Citizens
10 Association. And when I'm not speaking
11 officially in that capacity, it does inform
12 some of my sense.
13 And in particular, the Dupont
14 Circle Citizens Association joined with the
15 ANC, I think it has been two years ago, to
16 approve the continuation of the moratorium in
17 our neighborhood and also to allow to lateral
18 expansion --
19 MR. KLINE: I'm going to object to
20 this testimony to the point --
21 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Sustained.
22 MR. KLINE: Thank you.

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1 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Absolutely,
2 sustained. Mr. Hibey, next question, please.
3 BY MR. HIBEY:
4 Q If you could answer my question,
5 please.
6 A Okay. I'm sorry. Please, repeat
7 it.
8 Q What is your opinion on the
9 expansion Hank's is seeking?
10 A Okay. My personal opinion.
11 Q Yes.
12 A My personal opinion is that it is
13 a lovely restaurant that many, many people
14 across the District of Columbia and people in
15 the neighborhood enjoy. But that it is
16 bringing -- by increasing the seats there, we
17 risk going beyond the capacity that the
18 neighborhood can bear in terms of its
19 infrastructure, in terms of neighbors having
20 to bear more noise, more trash and traffic, as
21 has already been talked about.
22 So what I would like to see is

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1 simply being able to work with Hank's on a
2 friendly basis to explore the possibilities to
3 mitigate against sound that the neighbors
4 might be afraid of hearing, that they are
5 already experiencing, so they don't want to
6 risk hearing more, traffic, things like that.
7 If possible, at least
8 understanding everything involved and
9 everything that Ms. Leeds is doing in case the
10 neighbors have suggestions or, you know, if
11 you will, I don't think that the neighbors
12 want to place demands on the business, but to
13 the extent that some things might be feasible
14 that she perhaps hasn't thought of, just so
15 that everyone could work together to make sure
16 that the expansion is helpful to the
17 neighborhood.
18 Q Okay. Have you -- do you have
19 another copy of that exhibit?
20 This is their exhibit of the
21 proposed expansion of Hank's.
22 A Right.

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1 Q Have you ever seen that before?
2 A No, I have not.
3 Q Okay. Thanks.
4 A I would love to see it.
5 Q And in this drawing, as we have
6 discussed, Hank's is seeking an additional 104
7 seats at 1622 Q Street. And is it your
8 opinion that an additional 104 seats will
9 impact the peace, order and quiet in the
10 neighborhood?
11 A In so far as the neighborhood is
12 already under a moratorium, many, many, many
13 people feel it is already too much. So while
14 Hank's -- and I think I said this at the last
15 hearing, while Hank's is, of all the
16 establishments in our neighborhood, one of the
17 least likely to have negative impacts, it is,
18 however, still more seats, still more people,
19 still more traffic, still more litter, still
20 more lovers' quarrels across the street, which
21 we have experienced.
22 So from that point of view, I

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1 mean, we would rather, you know, Hank's was
2 moving into some of Trio's seats or something
3 like that, so that somewhere there could be
4 some containing of this to the levels that
5 have already been established, instead of
6 continuing to expand and push the boundaries
7 little by little, bit by bit.
8 It is eating away, we feel, at our
9 neighborhood. It is not about Hank's, in
10 particular, and I know the Board, I guess,
11 feels that they have to examine this very
12 specifically, with Hank's, but for those of us
13 who live in the neighborhood, it's all about
14 the mix Mr. Sowers said.
15 It's about the capacity. It's
16 about how much we can bear. And it is
17 unfortunate that we have on 17th Street a
18 really funky situation with commercial
19 establishments mostly on one side and
20 residential mostly on the other and that we
21 are just -- you know, there's noise across the
22 street in everyone's face. It's very tough

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1 for everyone.
2 And when it starts to come around
3 the corner and creep down, we just feel where
4 will it stop? And it's nothing to the
5 contrary and I know you don't want me to speak
6 to this, I hope I'm not out of order, but one
7 of the reasons the Dupont Circle Citizens
8 Association approved to lateral expansions
9 against some of the wishes of a number of our
10 members was that we felt places like Hank's
11 and a couple of others that might apply were
12 good establishments.
13 And we knew we would be able to
14 work with them under voluntary agreements to
15 reach accommodation. So that in spite of
16 additional seats, we would have some
17 protection and we would have some ability to
18 work together closely.
19 And I think that I don't know
20 Jamie personally very well at all. I wish I
21 knew her better and that we could talk about
22 this. But I feel like she has been a little

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1 bit disingenuous. As I recall, she said to
2 the ANC that she did not want to expand her
3 hours through this.
4 But here at the last two hearings,
5 I have heard her say that she might. And I
6 believe --
7 MR. KLINE: Mr. Chairman, I'm
8 going to object to this stream of conscious
9 testimony. I don't think there is a question
10 that this is responsive to. I'm not sure
11 where we are at this point.
12 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: I agree with
13 you.
14 MS. DIENER: Was there a question
15 I failed to answer?
16 BY MR. HIBEY:
17 Q Well, I don't think you answered
18 the question.
19 A What was the question?
20 Q Will the 104 seats added in the
21 proposed expansion impact peace, order and
22 quiet in the neighborhood?

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1 A Well, we feel that it could, yes.
2 For sure, not just could. It will. It will.
3 Q Okay. Okay.
4 A Put more strain on an already
5 difficult situation, yes.
6 Q Okay.
7 A Just by having more seats. 104
8 more people.
9 Q Okay. Will it impact parking?
10 A Yes.
11 Q How?
12 A There will be more people looking
13 for parking in a neighborhood that it's
14 already hard to park in.
15 Q Thank you.
16 A Thank you.
18 MR. KLINE: All right.
20 BY MR. KLINE:
21 Q So your testimony is that "we feel
22 that it could" have a negative effect on

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1 peace, order and quiet. Is that what you
2 said?
3 A Yes. And I perhaps should have
4 said --
5 Q All right.
6 A -- I.
7 Q Okay. Well, that's the question.
8 So who is the we?
9 A Well, the we is a habit I have of
10 speaking on behalf of the Dupont Circle
11 Citizens Association.
12 Q All right. And --
13 A I misspoke.
14 Q -- in this case --
15 A Because as I said, I am
16 representing myself.
17 Q Okay. And in this case, indeed,
18 the Dupont Circle Citizens Association has
19 blessed expansions as an exception to the
20 moratorium, correct?
21 A We agreed to two expansions,
22 lateral expansions, yes.

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1 Q All right. Okay. And this would
2 be one of them, correct?
3 A Yes, it could be.
4 Q All right. So in your official
5 position, as President of the Dupont Circle
6 Citizens Association, you support his
7 expansion, correct?
8 A We support two lateral expansions.
9 Q Right. And this is one of the
10 lateral expansions.
11 A It could be.
12 Q Wait. Let me finish my --
13 A It doesn't have to be.
14 Q -- question, please.
15 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Ms. Diener.
16 MR. KLINE: This poor man over
17 here has a tough job.
18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
19 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Let him finish
20 his questions, Ms. Diener.
21 BY MR. KLINE:
22 Q And this was one of the lateral

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1 expansions that was contemplated when that was
2 considered, wasn't it?
4 Q It's a yes or no question.
5 A I was contemplating.
6 Q Right. This particular one,
7 Hank's Oyster Bar, correct?
8 A Yes, but none was specified.
9 Q Okay. I understand. So really
10 the whole reason that you are here today is
11 because you think it would be great to work
12 together, correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay. And that's really the sole
15 reason that you are here today, right?
16 A Well, I'm not sure what you mean.
17 Q Well, the fact that you have
18 expressed, it would be great to work together.
19 You want to work together. You want to work
20 together, right? That's why you are here
21 today, correct?
22 MR. KLINE: I'll withdraw it. I

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1 think it has been asked and answered.
2 BY MR. KLINE:
3 Q Now, you said that Hank's Oyster
4 Bar, if anyone is going to expand, is least
5 likely to have negative impact, correct?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q All right. So if anyone is going
8 to get to expand in the neighborhood, it
9 should be Hank's Oyster Bar, correct?
10 A Presumably.
11 Q Okay.
12 A Depending on what the expansion
13 plans are.
14 Q Now, in terms of the moratorium,
15 this is really an extension of the issues that
16 were raised in the moratorium, isn't it?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Okay. But, indeed, at this point,
19 there are many people in the neighborhood who
20 thought that there should be exceptions to the
21 moratorium to allow expansion, correct?
22 A Yes, there are many people.

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1 Q All right. And the Board ruled
2 that there would be a certain number of
3 lateral expansions allowable?
4 A Yes.
5 Q All right. So that question has
6 been answered, hasn't it?
7 A Yes. What question?
8 Q That there would be a certain
9 number of lateral expansions allowed in the
10 neighborhood.
11 A Yes.
12 Q All right. Thank you.
15 any questions?
16 MEMBER GANDHI: I just --
17 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Gandhi?
18 MEMBER GANDHI: Well, I just
19 wanted to thank you. I know you were here at
20 an earlier meeting we had this morning, so
21 thank you for spending the day with us. I
22 really do appreciate it.

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1 MS. DIENER: Well, you're welcome.
2 And I ended up in the hospital the next day
3 and I was there for two days, because really
4 guys, this is a very unpleasant process. And
5 I know it's not your fault. But it's really
6 hard to come here and be questioned by lawyers
7 and no one, Jamie, no one wants to harm your
8 business.
9 I just wish we could sit down and
10 talk about it, because really everyone wants
11 the best for you and we just want to work
12 together and I know you find that ridiculous,
13 I'm sorry. But that is, in fact, my true
14 opinion.
15 And Hank's Oyster Bar, I assume
16 that was your dad, Hank. My father helped me
17 open my business. And I know what it is like
18 and it's hard and it's a lot of work and we
19 all respect you. I just wish we could work
20 together on that. Thank you, sir.
21 MEMBER GANDHI: That's not what I
22 was expecting, but thank you very much. I do

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1 appreciate it. Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Thank you, Ms.
3 Diener. Mr. Hibey?
4 MR. HIBEY: I call David Mallof.
5 MR. KLINE: Mr. Chairman, is there
6 any way we could take three minutes before Mr.
7 Mallof takes the stand?
8 MS. DIENER: Sure.
10 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: We're off the
11 record.
12 (Whereupon, at 4:18 p.m. a recess
13 until 4:23 p.m.)
14 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Okay. We are
15 back on the record.
16 Sir, raise your right hand.
17 Whereupon,
18 DAVID MALLOF

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1 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Please, be
2 seated. Thank you.
4 BY MR. HIBEY:
5 Q Good afternoon.
6 A Good afternoon.
7 Q Would you, please, state your name
8 for the record?
9 A Yes, I'm David Mallof, M-A-L-L-O-
10 F. I'm a 27 year resident of the last 10
11 years at 17 -- I'm sorry, almost 20 years at
12 1711 Q Street.
13 Q And you have been here, sat
14 through this proceeding, so I don't want you
15 to repeat sort of any of the comments that
16 have been made prior.
17 But do you have any additional
18 concerns about the expansion of Hank's and
19 its, if it's approved, direct abutment onto a
20 residential property?
21 A Yes. In that location,
22 absolutely. The Board did decide on three

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1 expansions, as I understood it, generally.
2 For that particular location, the
3 appropriateness is very, very difficult.
4 Q Okay.
5 A And I can explain.
6 Q Well, please go ahead, explain.
7 How is that difficult?
8 A Well, the Board has repeatedly
9 found over-concentration in the Moratorium
10 Zone and that location at the corner kind of
11 projects three ways onto residences. Hank's
12 is one piece of the equation. When it was
13 approved in 2005, and Jamie has done a good
14 job with the restaurant, it did upgrade the
15 intensity of activity at that location from a
16 sleepy DR pizza place to almost four times
17 more seats.
18 And this expansion then to the
19 east towards the residences would double that.
20 And it is a little bit like death by a
21 thousand cuts of impacts in an already very
22 difficult, largely residential, location.

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1 Q Okay.
2 A That's the issue.
3 Q Did you create an exhibit that
4 portrays the layout of 17th Street, including
5 Hank's and the other ABC licenses along 17th
6 Street in the Moratorium Zone?
7 A Yes, I did.
8 Q Okay. And in that portrayal that
9 you put together, well, could you tell us what
10 you did?
11 A Well, there had been questions
12 along the way of how things have changed since
13 Hank's came in. So I simply took all the
14 licensees, put them down on an Excel
15 visualization that existed in 2005. I put Xes
16 on the two that are no longer there and the
17 rest, you know, it kind of lays out visually
18 a walking tour of the 17th Street Moratorium
19 Zone.
20 And it shows very clearly that
21 Hank's is the only location where, in my mind,
22 a higher intensity commercial operation in the

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1 evening would directly abut residences.
2 In all their cases, we have
3 achieved maybe informally somewhat a step
4 down. If it's along 17th Street, it's all
5 commercial on one side. And as you flange off
6 sort of onto P, Church, Q, Corcoran and our
7 street and even north on 17th Street, it steps
8 down either to public property, to an alley or
9 to a step down commercial.
10 There is no other location where
11 it is directly abutting residences. And
12 that's the critical challenge here on the
13 intensity.
14 Q Okay. Are there any residences
15 directly abutting ABC licensed businesses in
16 this 17th Street Moratorium Zone?
17 A No.
18 Q Well, Hank's currently abuts a
19 residence, correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Other than that, are there any?
22 A Well, the only other one arguably

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1 that could be the case would be the Java
2 House, but there, that's a DR. It closes
3 early and down at the abutment, there is a
4 walkway, a 10 or 15 foot walkway before you
5 actually reach the next commercial property.
6 Q Okay. Well, do you have any
7 additional concerns about the impacts on
8 peace, order and quiet that would be caused by
9 Hank's expansion? Other than what has already
10 been stated by previous witnesses.
11 A Well, yes. Today we received new
12 information on their being facade opening
13 doors, when previously that was not
14 represented in the letter that was submitted.
15 There was no application, gentleman, in -- for
16 this substantial change.
17 There was a six sentence letter
18 and a drawing that was submitted in April of
19 2009, which we discovered in the file. The
20 ANC voted not on an application, but on the
21 basis of that one sentence in the notice.
22 And today, we learned there are

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1 facade opening doors, which was a big issue
2 back five years ago. I understand that that's
3 a substantial change and requires placarding
4 and public comment.
5 We also discovered today there is
6 a back patio, which is a substantial change
7 and requires placarding and public comment.
8 So I -- this goes far today on
9 peace, order and quiet beyond 80 seats,
10 whether they be inside or outside.
11 Q Okay. And just briefly, how is
12 your peace, order and quiet impacted by
13 Hank's?
14 A It is additive. We have had on
15 the street corner the projection of noise
16 quite dramatically on nice evenings when
17 sometimes you need to take a flight the next
18 morning and Hank's is a dramatic change from
19 the prior DR and now proposed additional
20 doubling in that already intense location is
21 the crux of the issue for the residents within
22 earshot.

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1 And I'm 280 feet away and I am
2 within earshot.
3 Q Now, do you have any additional
4 concerns, other than what has been raised by
5 previous witnesses about the impact of Hank's
6 expansion on pedestrian and vehicular safety,
7 including parking issues?
8 A Well, my friends from Centerville
9 don't want to come in to the District, because
10 they are wimps about parking. So I understand
11 that.
12 On parking, we have conducted
13 detailed parking studies twice in the last
14 seven years for each of the moratorium
15 renewals. One of the dramatic things we
16 discovered was, you know, things are intense
17 on weekends, as they are everywhere in the
18 city.
19 In the Dupont/17th Street area, we
20 did conclude and quantify and I would be glad
21 to submit for the record the tally of license
22 plates and where they were parked. Very

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1 frequently, people on weekends park in the
2 crosswalks. They block the stop signs. It's
3 dangerous for pedestrians.
4 And the woman who testified in the
5 prior hearing talked about her Church Street.
6 Church Street sometimes, almost frequently, on
7 weekends is illegally parked on both sides.
8 You can't get fire equipment around the
9 corners when the cars are parked in the
10 crosswalks and you can't get the fire
11 equipment down Church Street.
12 And I can't believe that some of
13 the neighbors would not be highly concerned
14 about any iota more of parking density.
15 Furthermore, I believe the
16 Investigator did testify today that the garage
17 that Hank's uses closes at 11:00 on weekdays
18 and midnight on weekends. So that's not
19 something that is easily available for the
20 Hank's customer or any other who might want to
21 stay later than those hours.
22 So parking is a problem and it is

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1 a Residential Zone fundamentally.
2 Q Okay. And just two more
3 questions. One is in addition to what other
4 witnesses have said, do you have any concerns
5 about the impact of Hank's expansion on
6 property values in the neighborhood?
7 A Well, I believe the appraisal Mr.
8 Poozesh had, that he showed me from the former
9 president of the Metro Appraisers Association,
10 showed what would be a 13 or 14 percent
11 decrease in his equity.
12 If that applies in any small way
13 to more than just one residence, that math
14 gets pretty big pretty quickly.
15 So -- and again, in due respect to
16 the commercial operators in our largely
17 residential corridor, the Chairman has asked
18 multiple times about the financial
19 contribution of Hank's per se. Well, each of
20 the residences directly impacted within 200
21 feet also make significant financial
22 contributions in the investment of their

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1 properties and the creation of income that is
2 based on sometimes getting a good night's
3 sleep.
4 And I think math when you look at
5 200 feet or 600 feet away, it really trumps
6 any of the economic generation from the
7 commercial operators on 17th Street when you
8 play with some of the numbers, which I have
9 here. I think they are good sizings.
10 And so I don't want to criticize.
11 Everyone is contributing and Jamie is a big
12 contributor, but the residents contribute,
13 too, and we have millions of dollars invested,
14 hundreds of residents within earshot of
15 Hank's. And we have incomes that are derived
16 from livability.
17 So that's really -- I can share
18 some of the --
19 Q No.
20 A -- math with you. It's profound.
21 Q All right. Well, I'll just ask
22 you a couple of questions. Do you know how

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1 many people live within 200 feet of Hank's?
2 A I believe there are at least 200
3 people who live within, if not far more, but
4 I believe there are at least 200 people within
5 200 feet of Hank's.
6 Q Well, how many people live within
7 600 feet of Hank's?
8 A At least 1,000.
9 Q And within how many feet do you
10 live?
11 A 280.
12 Q What are the -- if you put all
13 that together, you know, 200 people within 200
14 feet --
15 A Well, in the District, households
16 are about two, just a tad over two people per
17 household. The U.S. average is about 2.5.
18 D.C. is a little less. So if you just took
19 200 people or 1,000 people, cut it in half to
20 100 households or 500 households, and then
21 apply the math per income per household, I
22 believe the D.C. Economic Partnership

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1 publishes that the Dupont Circle average
2 household is at least $85,000 per household.
3 That's $8.5 million of income
4 generation on 100 households and $42.5 million
5 on 500 households. And then the 10 percent,
6 approximately, marginal tax rate, I mean, it
7 gets interesting. So people are contributing
8 in many ways, not just on the commercial
9 basis.
10 Q Okay.
11 A And have investments.
12 Q So --
13 MR. HIBEY: Well, I don't have any
14 other questions. Thank you, Mr. Mallof.
18 BY MR. KLINE:
19 Q So it is your testimony that these
20 people that live within, what was it, 500
21 feet, what was your figure?
22 A Well, I was asked one -- 200 feet

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1 and 600 feet.
2 Q Okay. What was the $42.5 million
3 figure?
4 A 1,000 people within 600 feet.
5 Q Okay. So your estimation is those
6 people contribute $42.5 million to the
7 District?
8 A No. In income generation.
9 Q Okay.
10 A That upon that you would tax it.
11 Q Okay.
12 A Or say that that also generates
13 other economic activity as an ancillary, yes.
14 Q Okay. So it's your position that
15 if Jamie Leeds, Hank's Oyster Bar, is allowed
16 to expand, that all those residents are going
17 to move out of the neighborhood?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q Okay. So and, in fact, if they
20 did move out of the neighborhood --
21 A I didn't say --
22 Q Whoa, whoa. I'm just going with

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1 my hypothetical here. If they did move out of
2 the neighborhood, even though you said that
3 they won't, they would be quickly replaced,
4 wouldn't they?
5 A Sir, I -- you are -- I don't know
6 what kind of speculation this is. This is a
7 weird question.
8 Q Mr. Mallof, the speculation is
9 your's. You have offered testimony --
10 A What's the yes/no question?
11 Q You have offered testimony that
12 there is $42.5 million at stake, I think --
13 A I didn't say that.
14 Q -- is what I heard. Well, I'm not
15 really sure --
16 A I said everybody chips in.
17 Q Okay. Everybody chips in?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay. And if Hank's Oyster Bar is
20 allowed to expand, those people will still be
21 chipping in, won't they?
22 A Yes.

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1 Q Okay. But if Hank's Oyster Bar is
2 not allowed to expand, then the economic
3 benefits to the District that we talked about
4 earlier won't be there, will they?
5 A Well, I think when I get a bad
6 night's sleep, I might be chipping in a little
7 less, so there may be some trades here on
8 impacts.
9 Q Okay. So --
10 A Yes.
11 Q -- but you could move somewhere
12 else if you wanted, not that I'm saying that
13 that's what you need to do. Let me finish my
14 question, please.
15 You could move somewhere else if
16 you wanted, if sleep were an issue, couldn't
17 you?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay. And if you did that, there
20 would be a buyer there for your home, wouldn't
21 there be, given --
22 A At a price, yes.

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1 Q -- current real estate conditions?
2 A Yes.
3 Q All right.
4 A Yes. Would you like to move to
5 the District from Potomac, sir?
6 Q Yes, I would.
7 MR. HIBEY: Mr. Mallof?
8 MR. KLINE: You don't get to ask
9 the questions.
10 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Mallof?
11 MR. KLINE: Talk to my wife.
12 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: The way this is
13 going to work, Mr. Mallof, is you are going to
14 answer questions.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank
16 you.
17 BY MR. KLINE:
18 Q All right. Now, you also talked
19 about gee, there are shutter doors and all of
20 a sudden there are shutter doors. Aren't
21 there currently shutter doors on the front of
22 this building?

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1 A That was a big topic of dispute in
2 2005 and we were vilified when --
3 Q Mr. Mallof, please.
4 A -- for no single --
5 Q My question is --
6 A -- doors.
8 A Yes.
9 Q -- in the photo that was
10 previously introduced into evidence --
11 A Yes.
12 Q -- there are shutter doors on the
13 front of the building.
14 A Yes.
15 Q That represents the proposed
16 expansion of the premises, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q All right. So that's no big
19 surprise, is it?
20 A Not now.
21 Q Okay. Well, haven't those shutter
22 doors existed at that location for quite a

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1 long time? We are talking about 1622.
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q All right.
4 A We negotiated those, yes.
5 Q Well, I think we have some
6 confusion. I'm talking about 1622. Not 1624.
7 1622 Q Street, the proposed expansion area.
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay.
10 A I don't see shutter doors.
11 Q The round doors. Aren't there
12 round doors on the front of the building?
13 A I don't know. Yes, but -- yes.
14 MR. KLINE: Well, may I approach
15 the witness?
16 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: You may.
17 BY MR. KLINE:
18 Q I'll show you the picture and see
19 if that refreshes your recollection.
20 A I thought that was a sealed area
21 from the dry cleaners. I haven't inspected
22 it. Mr. Kline, are you sure those are doors

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1 and not -- I'm sorry. Whatever. I'm sorry.
2 Q Okay.
3 A I think that's a sealed window
4 area from the dry cleaners.
5 MS. LEEDS: No, it opens.
6 BY MR. KLINE:
7 Q All right. So is it your
8 contention that every time an ABC licensee
9 makes an architectural change to their
10 business that they are required to submit to
11 the Board for a substantial change?
12 A It's my understanding, yes, that
13 changes that result in impacts on noise have
14 been viewed by this Board as substantial
15 changes. But that's just my layperson's
16 understanding.
17 Q Okay.
18 A Yes, thank you.
19 Q And you also testified that you
20 are concerned here with respect to Hank's
21 Oyster Bar isn't specific to Hank's Oyster
22 Bar. I think the words you used is it's

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1 additive. Wasn't that your testimony?
2 A Yes, every change is additive.
3 Q All right. So really, the issue
4 for you is additional seats in the
5 neighborhood whether they are at Hank's or
6 some other establishment. Isn't that really
7 the issue for you?
8 A No. Today's issue is this
9 establishment, this appropriateness.
10 Q Well, I understand that.
11 A My concern today is this
12 situation.
13 Q I understand why we are here.
14 A In this location.
15 Q But your testimony wasn't specific
16 to Hank's. Your testimony seemed to be, and
17 maybe I'm wrong, was the cumulative effect of
18 additional seats in the neighborhood. So you
19 said it's additive.
20 A In this situation, it is additive
21 where the Board has found over-concentration,
22 yes.

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1 Q All right. So if it were at
2 another location in the neighborhood, other
3 than Hank's Oyster Bar, wouldn't it also be
4 additive?
5 A The Board has determined that,
6 generally, two or three expansions is -- may
7 be appropriate. Today's discussion is is this
8 appropriateness? I don't know about other
9 speculative cases. I don't know, sir.
10 Q Well, I --
11 A Propose an address and talk about
12 it. I don't know.
13 Q Well, my question to you is, and
14 I'm going to ask it again, because you haven't
15 really answered it, my question to you is,
16 let's go back --
17 A Yes.
18 Q Your testimony is your difficulty
19 is not specific to Hank's, it's the additive
20 effect.
21 Q In that location, yes.
22 Q All right.

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1 A In that hyper-concentrated
2 location.
3 Q Okay.
4 A Yes.
5 Q And you testified at the
6 moratorium proceeding as well, didn't you?
7 A We are not here to discuss that
8 today, but yes.
9 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Sir?
10 BY MR. KLINE:
12 A Yes, I did.
13 Q -- you attended the last --
14 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: I'm only going
15 to say this one more time, but I get the
16 strange feeling I'm probably going to say it
17 like 50 more times. The gentleman asked you
18 a question, answer the question, not create
19 your own question or think of a hypothetical
20 or try to outsmart the guy.
21 THE WITNESS: All right.
22 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: We know you are

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1 a smart guy, we have a lot of smart guys in
2 the room, but could I have you answer the
3 question?
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Yes.
5 BY MR. KLINE:
6 Q So you testified?
7 A I did.
8 Q And your testimony concerned
9 hyper-concentration in the Moratorium Zone,
10 right?
11 A No.
12 Q No?
13 A I didn't use that word until we
14 appealed.
15 Q Okay. All right. But I'm going
16 to go back to my original question was if the
17 seats are added anywhere in the Moratorium
18 Zone, it's the same additive effect that you
19 are concerned about, isn't it?
20 A It depends on the situation.
22 Thank you.

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1 THE WITNESS: No.
3 any questions?
5 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Go ahead.
6 MEMBER ALBERTI: Mr. Mallof, going
7 on another track here, thank you for coming.
8 I'm going to go back to the notice that you
9 received. Did you receive notice and did you
10 look at the notice that was posted for this
11 establishment? Have you read it?
12 MR. MALLOF: Yes. And I read it
13 on -- it was the same thing on the placard.
15 MR. MALLOF: Yes. That's all that
16 was there.
17 MEMBER ALBERTI: Did you
18 understand it to have requesting an expansion
19 of the sidewalk cafe area?
20 MR. MALLOF: I think that notice
21 said -- I think it says 20 seats outside, yes.
22 MEMBER ALBERTI: Yes. Did you

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1 understand it to be an expansion of interior
2 space?
3 MR. MALLOF: Yes. By the way it
4 was phrased, yes.
5 MEMBER ALBERTI: Did you
6 understand it to be an extension -- the
7 substantial change to include a summer garden?
8 MR. MALLOF: No way, sir.
9 MEMBER ALBERTI: Was summer --
10 MR. MALLOF: No.
11 MEMBER ALBERTI: -- garden used at
12 all in the notice?
13 MR. MALLOF: No, sir.
14 MEMBER ALBERTI: Thank you.
16 any other questions? Mr. Mallof, I have one,
17 well, maybe more.
18 I think that the number that Mr.
19 Hibey and you used was within a 600 foot
20 radius, there is 1,000 people.
21 MR. MALLOF: Yes.
22 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Is that right?

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1 MR. MALLOF: I think that's pretty
2 good, at least.
3 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So at least
4 1,000. So there could be --
5 MR. MALLOF: At least.
6 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: -- more. How
7 many more?
8 MR. MALLOF: Well, every SMD is
9 2,000 and the four SMDs intersect there. If
10 you take a look at the 600 foot radius, it's
11 pretty significant. I played with some
12 Costar, I think it's a pretty good number.
13 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So, I mean, do
14 you really think it is more?
15 MR. MALLOF: I --
16 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: But 1,000 is
17 about right?
18 MR. MALLOF: I think bigger than a
19 breadbox, yes, sir.
20 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Okay. So then
21 do I understand that those people within 600
22 feet, those are sort of the more affected

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1 folks. that's why you are picking 600 feet?
2 MR. MALLOF: No, the Board picked
3 600 in its Investigator's report. So we just
4 -- 200 is the BZA distance and 600 is the one
5 that the Investigator picked.
6 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Okay. So --
7 MR. MALLOF: I believe also the
8 Moratorium Zone may be defined as roughly 600
9 feet from that corner, which Hank's is 50 feet
10 away from. But then more specifically defined
11 as a boundary as well. So I think that's why
12 the Investigator may have picked 600 from the
13 moratorium definition.
14 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Well, it sounds
15 like from the way that you are describing the
16 effect of the neighborhood on the expansion,
17 it would have a relatively profound impact on
18 the neighborhood.
19 MR. MALLOF: I think the
20 profound --
21 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Is that your
22 testimony?

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1 MR. MALLOF: -- I think the
2 profound impact is the BZA 200 feet. I sort
3 of trust the BZA measure and so I'm within
4 earshot. I think 200 is very impactful.
5 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Oh, so you
6 think it should be defined more as the 200
7 foot radius as opposed to the 600 foot radius?
8 I was trying to get an idea for why those two
9 numbers were being thrown out.
10 MR. MALLOF: Well, the 600 is an
11 ABC number, as I understand it.
13 MR. MALLOF: And a definition of
14 the affected area and the 200 is a BZA. And
15 the 200 sort of no one can question that
16 people are directly impacted by a potential
17 change within about 200 feet, that's why I
18 think BZA solicits.
19 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: So for purposes
20 of the ABC Board, what number do we really
21 look at to see what that cone of distance is?
22 MR. MALLOF: Well, sir, I --

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1 statutorily, you have to look -- I believe you
2 look at the additive, the layering on of the
3 appropriateness peace, order, quiet, blah,
4 blah, blah. And I think 200 to 600 feet is
5 pretty good. I don't -- that's not really for
6 me to say.
8 MR. MALLOF: I don't know.
9 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: I'm just trying
10 to get an idea for why those numbers were
11 being used by you guys. Okay. Any other
12 questions?
13 MR. MALLOF: Thank you.
15 Mr. Hibey?
16 MR. HIBEY: No questions.
18 MR. KLINE: I don't have any other
19 questions.
20 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Thank you, Mr.
21 Mallof.
22 MR. MALLOF: Thank you very much.

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1 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: You're welcome,
2 sir. Mr. Hibey, any other witnesses?
3 MR. HIBEY: No, we don't have any
4 other witnesses.
6 much. Mr. Kline, would you like to make a
7 closing remark?
8 MR. KLINE: Yes. Thank you. It
9 appears that the main objection to the
10 protestants to this expansion are issues that
11 were discussed at length and decided by the
12 Board in the moratorium proceeding.
13 I mean, this case seems on the
14 part of the protestants to be a thinly
15 disguised attempt to revisit the same issues
16 that this Board looked at and spent a great
17 deal of time on in determining that the 17th
18 Street Moratorium would continue. However,
19 there were a few lateral expansions granted.
20 It is important to note that,
21 because this moratorium, I believe, is the
22 only one in the District of Columbia that has

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1 a restriction against lateral expansion. So
2 it's special.
3 All of the other moratoria have
4 limits on licenses or a certain number of
5 licenses or a cap to the present number of
6 licenses, but none of them have a cap, that I
7 can recall, or a limitation on lateral
8 expansion.
9 So I think given the special
10 nature of the moratorium and the special
11 protection that these residents enjoy, the
12 Board is required to look critically at this
13 situation where it has allowed, despite the
14 limitation on lateral expansion, a limited
15 number of expansions.
16 And in this case where the
17 protestants come before the Board and,
18 essentially, raise the very same issues that
19 have been hashed and rehashed in the
20 moratorium proceeding, it just seems that it
21 is utterly without merit.
22 What is uncontested and doesn't

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1 seem to be disputed by hardly anyone that has
2 testified here during the two hearings is that
3 we have got a very good responsible operator
4 here. And whether there is a voluntary
5 agreement, whether the size of the place is
6 doubled, whether there is additional seating,
7 I think and I hope that the Board is convinced
8 that this operator can be trusted to be
9 responsive and deal with whatever issues might
10 arise.
11 Now, this is trust and trust me,
12 this is we don't need anything else in terms
13 of restrictions. And that this expansion is
14 appropriate. Now, I know there are a number
15 of concerns that have been raised today about
16 the effect on the immediate neighbor in terms
17 of he lives right there, there are five people
18 that live there and if she is allowed to
19 expand, this may negatively effect his
20 lifestyle, his living, his situation.
21 Well, the fact of the matter is it
22 seems to me if we agree, and there has been

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1 some discussion about this in other forums,
2 that zoning is what should be important and
3 that we get away from who comes first and who
4 was there first and what have you, that that
5 question has already been decided.
6 And Mr. Poozesh had an opportunity
7 to participate in that decision when the
8 zoning hearing took place. He admitted that
9 he was aware of it. And he decided that he
10 didn't want to participate in that.
11 And when that occurred, whether
12 consciously or not, whether knowingly or not,
13 he agreed that next to him could be a funeral
14 home, could be a pool hall, could be any one
15 of a number of uses that might have the effect
16 of devaluing his property or might disturb him
17 in some way.
18 I don't know, the odors from the
19 funeral home, I have no idea. But there are
20 any one of a number of things that could have
21 negatively effected his property. He decided
22 not to oppose that.

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1 The property was rezoned and now,
2 as a matter-of-right, you can put a restaurant
3 in there. The issue we still have to deal
4 with is okay, will it be a restaurant with an
5 alcoholic beverage license and that's why we
6 are here today.
7 Because even though it is properly
8 zoned, as we know, we still have another
9 hurdle, which is we have to apply for approval
10 by this Board and this Board has to make the
11 determination that the expanded premises is
12 appropriate considering all of the factors
13 that we are talking about.
14 I think that the evidence before
15 the Board today is overwhelming that it is
16 appropriate. Now, if this were to be, I use
17 this term somewhat pejoratively, but I'll use
18 it, a velvet rope nightclub, then, okay, maybe
19 we have a different situation and maybe the
20 zoning question being answered isn't enough.
21 But in this case, given the
22 history of this establishment, given the type

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1 of establishment that is being run and no
2 reason to question that there is going to be
3 any change, I think there can't be any doubt
4 that it is appropriate as expanded.
5 And we would request that you
6 approve the expansion. Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Thank you, Mr.
8 Kline. Mr. Hibey?
9 MR. HIBEY: Thank you. We are
10 here to talk about whether or not the new
11 Hank's is appropriate. And there is specific
12 language in the statute in the regulation that
13 guides us in determining whether or not it is
14 appropriate.
15 This is an additional step in
16 addition to zoning. So if they haven't been
17 zoned, if the 1622 Q wasn't already zoned for
18 this, then we wouldn't be here. And I think
19 everyone knows that.
20 But there is this next step and
21 that is what is up to the Board to decide,
22 whether it is appropriate.

202-234-4433
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1 So there is an additional layer
2 that the Board adds, it's an overlay and you
3 don't just look to zoning and say well, if
4 they approve it, so we do.
5 No, no, there is another question.
6 And now it is where we are today, whether this
7 is appropriate. And the burden is on Hank's
8 to show it is appropriate. And all they have
9 offered is well, I could be wrong.
10 They don't know whether this is
11 appropriate and there is no way for you to
12 know.
13 Mr. Chairman had an interesting
14 line of questioning with one of our witnesses
15 about, you know, how do we do this? How do we
16 do this if it's so subjective? How do we
17 deviate from what is appropriate if it's
18 subjective?
19 Well, it's not subjective. There
20 is factors that you are supposed to look at
21 and those factors are supposed to be proven by
22 Hank's. And if there is any doubts, you

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1 cannot approve this substantial change.
2 And this is a substantial change
3 that is going to dramatically impact not only
4 Mr. Poozesh, but hundreds of people within 200
5 feet.
6 Mr. Sowers already has sound
7 coming in -- right into his home. He has
8 invested substantially into the neighborhood.
9 And adding 104 more seats is just going to
10 double it, triple it. I don't know what it is
11 going to do, but they haven't told you what it
12 is going to do either and it's their burden to
13 tell you what it is going to do.
14 To tell you that it is not going
15 to impact peace, order and quiet. They
16 haven't come close to doing that. They have
17 left you with more questions.
18 And Ms. Leeds, in particular, has
19 testified that she has done no noise
20 measurements whatsoever. She hadn't hired
21 anyone. She has brought no one forward to
22 tell you what the impacts are going to be.

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1 So how can you find that peace,
2 order and quiet is not going to be impacted?
3 It's impossible. And that's why the law is
4 written as it is for you to come forward, find
5 out what is appropriate, follow those factors
6 and the burden is on them to prove it. It's
7 not on us.
8 So if there is questions about how
9 are we going to deviate, how are we going to
10 do this, this is so subjective. Well, all
11 those questions, they have to answer them, not
12 us. And they haven't been answered. They
13 haven't even come close to answering them.
14 Another point I would like to make
15 is that the issue we really have is this is
16 going to impact real people, a real person who
17 is still sitting here, his master bedroom is
18 right next to, I guess, a restaurant now. His
19 living room is going to be right next to a
20 bar.
21 His front yard isn't a front yard
22 any more. His back patio isn't a back patio

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1 any more. His whole house has been turned
2 into a bar, basically. I'm sorry, a
3 restaurant. Hank's is not just a bar.
4 And then in closing, the last
5 point that we have that we have a real issue
6 with is this drawing for the proposed new
7 space, we have never seen it before. And it
8 includes changes, substantial changes that
9 were never placarded, never noticed, never
10 anything.
11 So Hank's is now coming forward
12 and trying to slide in a whole bunch of other
13 changes that they have never even asked for
14 that this Board cannot approve.
15 What they initially applied for
16 was about a paragraph. And they attached one
17 sheet that had a rough estimation of what they
18 are going to do.
19 We don't think that is close to
20 enough to apply for a substantial change,
21 particularly one like this in a Moratorium
22 Zone abutting a residence. I think that is

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1 the Board's call.
2 But I guess we do have an issue
3 going forward, even in this case. When you
4 are applying for a substantial change, if you
5 apply for a one day substantial change, you
6 need to fill out a whole sheet. There is a
7 whole bunch of information you have to provide
8 the Board, that's just for a one day
9 substantial change.
10 We are talking about a permanent
11 substantial change. All they gave you was
12 five sentences and a rough drawing and then
13 they come back six months later with another
14 drawing that is completely different and adds
15 new substantial changes, including outdoor
16 space in the back that no one knows anything
17 about.
18 So we have a real issue with how
19 this has all been brought to the Board's
20 attention that there are substantial changes
21 in what they are proposing that have never
22 been noticed, never been placarded.

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1 But beyond all that, I want to go
2 back to the burden is on them. They haven't
3 come close to meeting it. And we don't think
4 that you can approve this substantial change.
5 They don't even know what is going to happen.
6 Jamie Leeds says I could be wrong.
7 And we can't just possibly be wrong in making
8 these substantial change decisions. Thank
9 you.
11 much. We thank the parties very much for
12 their time.
15 much. The record is now closed. Are the
16 parties willing to waive findings of fact and
17 conclusions of law?
18 MR. KLINE: Yes, we are.
19 MR. HIBEY: Yes.
21 much. We are off the record.

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1 (Whereupon, the Protest Hearing in
2 the above-entitled matter was concluded at
3 4:57 p.m.)
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22

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A achievable 113:7 120:22 142:7,9 215:13 219:17,18 178:20

ABC 6:11 10:4 achieved 248:3 143:17 154:3 225:12 230:15 alleviate 137:8
15:22 18:22 19:2 acoustics 196:4 161:12 183:7 250:2 alley 17:4,7,11
20:3 186:2 190:5 acquired 186:2 adjust 111:20 agree 86:2 236:12 61:10 102:8 248:8
190:6 193:7,10 activity 224:3 adjusted 143:10 276:22 alleys 196:2
247:5 248:15 246:15 257:13 Administration 9:3 agreed 238:21 allow 4:16,19 5:2
263:8 272:11,20 actual 84:21 85:10 administrative 277:13 9:15 73:19 157:18
Abdi 118:14,18 85:19 63:9,19 115:21 agreement 62:17 192:13 230:17
119:9 209:9 ADA 59:15 116:3 81:2 82:20,21 241:21
abide 181:14 Adams 222:9 admire 130:18,18 84:6 85:3,6,9 allowable 189:15
ability 126:4 169:9 ADA-compliant admitted 24:8 192:6 276:5 192:11 242:3
235:17 59:2 277:8 agreements 235:14 allowed 55:9 87:21
able 45:20 56:1 add 6:22 222:13 adopt 62:14 ahead 18:2 200:1 158:2,5 192:16
65:22 78:13 225:11 adult 107:9 165:11 246:6 268:5 242:9 257:15
105:14 116:3 added 44:22 70:11 advantage 42:21 aid 116:2 258:20 259:2
129:10,12 144:13 236:20 267:17 54:16 Alaire 210:3 275:13 276:18
175:17 194:17 adding 5:22 216:18 adverse 6:8 211:14 212:3 allows 70:2 192:7
227:13 232:1 281:9 advised 131:11 Alberti 1:18 77:16 192:14
235:13 addition 10:20 advisement 28:22 77:17,19,22 78:6 ambiguous 185:15
above-entitled 230:7 253:3 Advisory 213:6 78:10 79:2,5,9,13 ameliorate 146:11
286:2 279:16 219:4 79:21 80:3,6,10 amenities 42:19
ABRA 1:22 12:21 additional 5:3 7:10 affect 9:18 123:14 80:16 81:10,17 43:2,2,14 55:15
14:7 84:7 69:20 70:18 72:12 133:19 134:17 82:4,15 83:3,9,12 197:22
absolute 202:21 73:9 74:2,8 89:1 165:18 198:22 83:22 84:15 86:4 amount 213:15
absolutely 36:2,15 108:17 112:17,21 213:10 87:1,4,9,12,16 amounts 43:11
43:16 86:5 87:15 113:4 201:9 afford 224:16,21 88:2,7,12,15,18 analysis 12:17
122:13 205:10 221:19 233:6,8 227:13 89:8,11,15,19,22 72:15,18
206:11 215:8 235:16 245:17 afield 126:20 90:6,8,11,13,16 analyze 73:6
231:1 245:22 249:7 250:19 afraid 232:4 90:20 91:3,9,13 analyzed 72:11
abut 6:15 78:4,10 251:3 264:4,18 afternoon 2:7,11 91:16 92:1,7,10 73:4,7,17,22
96:16 104:21 276:6 279:15 2:13,16,18 3:21 92:14,18,21 93:1 ANC 219:5 230:15
202:17 248:1 280:1 5:7 19:17,18 93:6,13,17,22 236:2 249:20
abutment 245:19 additive 250:14 33:14 48:7 54:2 116:9,12,19 117:1 ancillary 257:13
249:3 264:1,2,19,20 64:7 119:5,6 117:4 142:11,20 ANCs 181:3 218:19
abuts 149:2 150:8 265:4,19 267:18 123:22 124:1 153:18 154:1,6,10 Andrew 2:8 56:22
195:14 248:18 273:2 165:3 169:20 154:13,17,19 annotate 142:14
abutting 185:2,9 address 5:21 26:2,4 188:2 212:1 245:5 155:2,6,9,11,14 answer 31:3 78:13
248:11,15 283:22 40:7 83:22 212:13 245:6 155:17,22 156:8 129:20 158:9
access 137:6 265:11 Agency 84:7 156:16,19 157:3 160:16 175:5,5
accommodate 4:17 addressed 134:18 agent 26:15 35:18 157:17 158:4,7,22 178:5 183:13
56:2 167:9 addresses 166:20 35:20 268:4,6,14,17,22 185:11 231:4
accommodates addressing 130:1 ago 4:7 5:10 26:18 269:5,9,11,14 236:15 240:3
65:20 adds 213:14 280:2 30:8,22 31:7 33:2 Alberti's 97:3 260:14 266:18
accommodating 284:14 36:1,14,21,22 alcohol 9:2 79:16 267:2 282:11
4:18 adequate 166:3 51:11,13,15,21 alcoholic 1:2,13,14 answered 176:2,4,9
accommodation adjacent 32:9,10 69:16 114:4 133:4 129:7 202:5 278:5 176:10 236:17
235:15 61:10 78:17 91:5 133:5 214:12 alcohol-oriented 241:1 242:6

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265:15 278:20 appreciate 163:19 137:7,21,21 138:3 Association 34:13 81:16 116:4
282:12 195:7 242:22 140:1 142:21 37:16 209:1 219:8 117:11 125:19
answering 176:3 244:1 143:18 144:10 230:10,14 235:8 129:4,8 130:7
210:19 282:13 appreciated 195:10 145:2,8,14,20,22 238:11,18 239:6 145:1 207:9 277:9
anticipating 76:20 approach 56:18 148:19,20 149:21 253:9 A-L-A-I-R-E 212:4
anybody 50:1 262:14 149:22 151:1,11 assume 191:7 a.m 10:13,13,14,14
220:10,20 approached 159:8 151:13 152:3,8,18 216:8 243:15 10:19 11:1,6
anybody's 44:19,20 appropriate 7:4,9 153:1,2,10 154:2 assumed 8:14 79:18 80:1 94:6,6
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202-234-4433

ABC Board Hearing Transcript-Hank&#39;s Expansion/11-03-2010

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Page 1

The Alcoholic Beverage Control

CALVIN NOPHLIN, Member

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

3 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: We are back on

4 the record calling Case No. 10-PRO-00109,

5 Leeds The Way, LLC t/a Hank's Oyster Bar.

6 Parties forward, introductions, please.

7 MR. KLINE: Yes, good afternoon.

8 Andrew Kline, as a non-lawyer representative

9 for the licensee. Sitting to my left is Jamie

10 Leeds, who is principal of the licensee.

11 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Good afternoon,

13 MR. HIBEY: Good afternoon, Mike

14 Hibey for the protestants and to my right is

15 Dave Mallof of the protestant group.

16 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Good afternoon,

18 MR. HIBEY: Good afternoon.

19 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: This is a

20 Protest Hearing for a substantial change of

21 License 71913. Are there any updates for the

22 Board before we proceed?

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

2 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Kline, how

3 many witnesses will you be presenting?

4 MR. KLINE: Three.

5 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: Mr. Hibey?

6 MR. HIBEY: Five.

7 CHAIRMAN BRODSKY: I know that you

8 both filed your protest information forms and

9 we trust that you understand that there will

10 be no duplicative testimony from any witness

11 and that the witnesses must testify to things

12 that are on point towards the nature of the

14 There is an hour and a half to

15 present your case, which we will be keeping

16 track of the time for you. And we will let

17 you know when that starts to get close to

18 being a problem for you.

19 Mr. Kline, would you like to make

21 MR. KLINE: Yes. Good afternoon,

22 Members of the Board, Chairman Brodsky. I'm

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

2 seeking approval of an expansion of its

3 premises, so that it would have authority to

4 expand into the building next door.

5 As the Board is aware, given that

6 these parties were before the Board several

7 weeks ago in a related matter, Ms. Leeds has

8 operated this establishment for,

9 approximately, five or six years without

10 incident, is well thought of in the

11 neighborhood and even based upon the testimony

12 of the protestants at the last hearing, has

13 not created a disturbance and is not likely to

14 create a disturbance in the neighborhood.

15 Approval of the expansion, as you

16 will hear from Ms. Leeds, will allow her to

17 accommodate different phase of business, in

18 terms of having -- accommodating private and

19 also allow the expansion of her already

20 popular and successful Hank's Oyster Bar.

21 So at the conclusion of the

22 hearing, we will be asking that the Board

ABC Board Hearing Transcript-Hank's Expansion/11-03-2010

ABC Board Hearing Transcript-Hank's Expansion/11-03-2010