Transcript of the interview on Offplanet Radio, August 6th 2011.

Randy Maugans interviews James Horak: Elenin - Signs and Designs Welcome once again to OffPlanet Radio, I'm Randy Maugans. The website is offplanetradio.com or offplanetradio.net or exotica-radio.com if you're a longtime listener. I don't have a science background; I'm not a physicist; I'm not an astronomer; I took an astrophysics course once years ago to fulfill a science credit. And having said that, we are going to launch into a discussion today on what has euphemistically been referred to as Comet Elenin. It is a hot topic on the internet; it's fraught with all types of disinformation, misinformation and I would almost say it has taken on a mythological proportion in the short time that it has caught our attention. What is Elenin and how do we address this particular phenomenon? Especially as it's being arrayed in the alternative media, the internet right now. With me on the line from his home in Texas is my friend, James Horak and you've heard him before on the show. We're going to talk about Elenin and what James thinks it is and we're going to try to bring into the mix here, dispelling some of the... what should I even say?... we talked about this earlier, misinformation, disinformation... the whole bag of wax that is Elenin. We're going to take it apart in this show. This is OffPlanet Radio and I welcome you, I welcome James Horak. James, welcome. JH: Thank you, Randy, my pleasure. RM: James, first off... I guess we'll get it out of the way, we'll define some terms, you know, of what a comet actually is. I went to Wikipedia, not that it's by any means definitive, but Wikipedia still defines a comet basically as an ice ball in space. And one of the other scientists I've followed for a long time, James McKinney, has defined comets more along the lines of an electrical discharge, plasma discharge, inside the solar system and inside the galaxy. Can we just get a working definition of comet out of the way before we go into what Elenin itself actually is? JH: A comet is a natural body moving through space at a constant rate of speed on a constant course. It has a tail. And as of the last few weeks Elenin has been represented as having a tail, I don't think it does. I think that's a misrepresentation and that its some clue as to how it's going to be treated as it comes closer to Earth. RM: Now we've experienced repeated cometary phenomena over a period of

time, the most famous, I guess being Halley's Comet. I recall the 1974 Comet Kohoutek which many people believed to be some harbinger. We later had Hale/Bopp which turned into quite the phenomenon after the Heaven's Gate fiasco where a cult took their own lives hoping to hitch a ride on the Hale/Bopp Comet. And now we've got Elenin which has again generated a fair amount of hysteria and speculation on the internet. I've gotten repeated emails from people either speculating or wondering what this phenomenon is that we've called it a comet... it seems to be a consistent denomination that Elenin is a comet based on the discovery by the Russian amateur astronomer who discovered it in December of 2010. So maybe that's kind of a launch pad for us to kind of spin out here and get your take on what you believe Elenin represents and why so many of the pundits are wrong.

Comet Elenin JH: One of the things that, for a background, as we approach trying to decide about Elenin, we need to remember something from the past, Schuhmacher/Levi. And how it was treated, how it actually behaved, these were supposed comet fragments. They had no tails; they came from deep space; they traveled in a straight line; and hit the same target over a course of a number of

days. There was never any mention in the scientific establishment among astronomers and astrophysicists that this could be under intelligent guidance... this was phenomenal. It tells you what a clamp the powers that be have on what these people say and divulge. And then we learned later on, from our friend Kevin Smith, who did some research on why this is true that everything that these people, throughout the world, observe in their observatories and from probes, is submitted to the Office of Astronomical Telegrams for release before it's allowed to be released. So, I wish we'd known that at the time of Schuhmacher/Levi because then there might have been a lot more discussion on exactly what it was... it definitely was not a natural body moving through space because when anything fragments, this is supposed to be particles or fragments of a comet, when anything comes apart, whether its in space or atmosphere, the parts go in different directions. This is just part of fragmentation. But these stayed in a straight line coming in from deep space, for millions of miles, and hit the same target which was Jupiter. When it was first discussed, and there was a program on national TV, where these fragments hit, these so called fragments it was right in the eye of a storm on Jupiter and I can remember the program, 20-20, that presented it, it showed these fragments in an artist's conception, going into this eye of the storm. But that was too obvious so later on things got changed around where it hit at different spots on Jupiter. And that's the disingenuous way in which information is handled and re-tailored to suit a mindset that these people want to impose on us. RM: Let me ask you this, who runs the Office of Astronomical Telegrams? JH: That's real interesting and that's a very good question. I wish I knew. I could guess that it probably has people from the CIA, NSA, NSC, and maybe even Naval Intelligence. But people that have been accustomed to keeping a lid on things now ever since 1947. RM: So the nature of the cometary phenomena has a very specific path, comets move at a constant speed; they do not vary course. What do we know about Elenin in regards to this very specific formula? JH: Well, this is what we basically know. We know that people that you and I both know, who have inside information and have staked their reputation and their credibility on portraying Elenin as something other than a comet. But presumably under intelligent guidance. And these people come out, they've even gone even further than that but they have staked a lot. So you can bet they are getting their information from somewhere, probably NASA. I firmly believe there have been attempts from Elenin to communicate with Earth. And that might be why these people feel so confident in portraying Elenin as something other than a natural body traveling through space.

RM: Do we have evidence that the trajectory of Elenin from where it was originally located in December of 2010, has in fact changed not only course but overtime it's changed speed as well? JH: Well according to these people that I think do have an insight, do have inside information, piecemeal though it may be, for these people to come out with what they have said, yes, I think they do. I think that Elenin is even more than just under intelligent control; I think that it is a phenomenon in itself. I think it's large; I think it has altered its course; it would have to... if it's coming towards a target like our system it has to alter its course since everything moves in space so you have that. You know, if its trajectory was constant they could plot its arrival precisely and they haven't been able to do that. That it is accelerated or decelerated, that's another thing. But I don't think these people, that one in particular, would risk so much if he didn't have information that he could have confidence in coming from official sources. RM: So I have not spent a lot of time looking, there has been a great amount of confusing information posted as I understand it coming from NASA's websites and Jet Propulsion Laboratories as well. It seems like they have almost hedged their bets at least from the public profile as to the behavior of this. And you know, I always wonder about NASA because NASA always seems to be perfectly capable of holding multiple opinions at the same time and having very little science to back any of it. And science does seem to fail us on one level. JH: Well, this has been the way all potentially embarrassing anomaly have been handled like ufology. UFOs have been treated in the same ambivalent manner because they never wanted to really discredit that ET was around. What they wanted to do was keep that revelation in a holding pattern so when the time came and it was useful to exploit or opportunize they would be able to define ET for us and that's what the hostile alien thesis is all about. RM: So we're here in 2011, in the summer of 2011, we have now gone through, I believe, eight parts of the Steven Spielberg series, Falling Skies, we saw the release this week of Cowboys and Aliens, we have on the schedule right now any number of motion picture events that are going to be released that seem to be sculpting and contouring the idea of the ET and I find it interesting that Spielberg started out, as most prominent movie being ET, The Extra-Terrestrial, where we had what we would almost consider to be a cartoon-character type alien who was friendly, who drew children to himself. Later we seem to move into this malevolent mode and we seem to now be moving into the malevolent mode. And I don't have an opinion about this particularly. I have my own experiences and my own ideas about this. I'm about probing the truth and trying to find out why our opinions are being manipulated.

JH: Well that's exactly what's going on with Elenin. It's a ball of wax. You have to understand, social engineers constantly poll public opinion and they take their drift from what they get as feedback from public opinion polls. And so they're angling this as time goes on. Now if they think they can sell a hostile alien thesis to the people, then they can get us all to buy another bullet, to give up national sovereignty even more, to allow more and more infringement on our personal liberties, and to suffer another degree of loss of our standard of living. That's all part of the game with these people. The rape of the United States and other industrial nations economically has been an ongoing project, has been intended. Economists no longer discuss the principles of sound economy anymore than scientists discuss the most significant salient tool for determining causal effects from observations, probability. So we have a loss of scientific determination both in astrophysics and both in economics. All of which are designed to lead people away from being able to think for themselves and independently conclude what the information and what the evidence points to. RM: In our previous interview we talked about your thesis and you presented in that show, and you presented it a very long period of time now, as well on your own website, emvsinfo.blogspot.com and we'll put a link up with the show on that. I just want people to know that you have documented a lot of information. So, in that show, we are using ambiguous terms a lot of times as well because we are using terms that have been defined for us. You broke out the idea that basically what we refer to as ET were, on the broad scale, not malevolent, that what we have been witnessing for the last fifty or sixty years were, in terms of the abductions, were not extra-terrestrial but, in fact, were extra-biologicalentities or EBEs. All of these terms kind of play into the ambiguity as well, from my position in that we don't understand who's out there, what's out there and what their intentions are towards humankind. JH: That's right. It's very important to make distinctions between ET and EBE because EBEs are not sentient. They were designed for deep space travel by a civilization that no longer exists as a civilization that we would understand. And there was a contingent of these EBEs, more or less abandoned, that became problematic, not just in this area of the galaxy, but in others. And eventually sentient species, ETs decided they had to remove them. And this is the last refuge for these EBEs. They're problematic, they're struggling to hide or to escape ET. And they've taken up, in their impish way, a relationship with military intelligence here and they provide a very limited aspect of technology because, bear in mind, these are creatures that are designed solely for space exploration, recovery of data and sending it back to where they came from. And they're not scientists, not even good technicians, they can keep things running and that's basically all they are. They are chunks of meat sewn together with a computer terminal. That's it. RM: We have definitions we have to continue to define. I will draw you back

again to the difference between... because the EBEs are not unintelligent; they are intelligent as we define intelligence in terms of processing information; acting in accordance with a logical pattern. That is not the same as sentience so maybe we can define sentience a little bit. JH: Sentience is a full compliment of thought that originates from the source that has it. It has cognition; it has emotion; it has a sense of determination, both moral and causal, which EBE doesn't have. EBE doesn't have any of these qualities. They are linked into computer central and they are purely task-driven without emotion. EMVs are task-driven but they have emotion and that's their language. They communicate with emotion very beautifully. But EBEs haven't that. They are utterly not sentient and they are devoid of the emotions, empathy... whatever. They are not malignant, but as ETspecifies they are problematic; they are impish and they remove them every chance they get. RM: Now, on the order of the ETs, and, again, I don't like the term; I think it is fraught with peril. But we lack, we seem to lack a language that seems to define beings beyond our scope right now. So we use the term ET in a very broad sense and the reason we are talking about this is because it all connects back to Elenin. And the nature of Elenin and the nature of humanity's relationship to, what I guess we would consider to be, a higher order of intelligence within the solar system, the galaxy and the universes. Where in the spectrum, do the sentient beings that we have had contact with on this planet since the inception of this planet... look, I think there is enough documentation to realize that if you just look at the histories, the ones that have been suppressed; the mythologies are especially useful for this because they have been more preserved. That we have had contact with beings outside of our own creational sphere for millenia, certainly. So, we have a spectrum of beings and we're talking about them in the broadest terms, which is the ETs and the ETs have been labeled very broadly as either malevolent or benevolent. Can we talk a little about how we define that and then how we define the intelligence that may be guiding Elenin? JH: All ETs that have reached Earth, even our system, are part of an extended community. This extended community has principles that govern its conduct towards everyone else, they are accepted universally and easily accepted because, when you have the technology to travel from one star system to another, you have the potential to place in one hand, one individual, the ability to destroy a planet. You cannot tolerate aberrance, either individually or collectively and so the entire structure of the society that possesses this technology has to change. And if a society develops to a level nearing where we are, that does not remove individual and collective aberrance; it is put down. It is as simple as that.

RM: Are we at a critical point in our civilization right now where we have a decision coming? JH: Yes. RM: Is that part of the phenomenon of Elenin that we are... JH: Yes, yes... RM: You want to go into a little to what has been communicated to you, your understanding of the intelligence, the message behind Elenin, that they may be bearing were we to hear them? JH: It was an effort to demonstrate the presence of the EMVs to let people know that there was an intelligence that was powerful and directed that was friendly and even vital. This did not do the trick. It did not do the trick because of tricksters. Tricksters in the form of social engineers and the people that run things on this planet that only want to think of the presence of ET and anything that is from off-Earth in terms of extended intelligence, as malevolent... to use, to use to further their own agendas. Agendas that are mindlessly suicidal. And I say this on the basis of anything you start that ends in the inevitability that leads to where no one would want to live on the planet, is suicide and that is what you are doing. The social engineers that work for the powers that be have lost being in touch, to any extent, with reality. They have deserted probability; the most useful tool of science; they have no moral core, no setting, no sense of causal reality directly relating to their actions. It's like mad men who are not only not capable of observing reality in terms that are concrete, but also are mindless in the objective they are driven to out of a sense of desperation. RM: The message is coming from, I guess what you would call, the universal intelligence... in other words this collective. If I can use that term, there is an agreement within the higher beings of the universe that mankind has reached this threshold where we are technologically advancing in exponential ratio but at the same time our morality, I guess our ability to discern good from evil, what would be more correctly said, there is a control grid in place on the Earth that has ensnared the minds of men. Do they not have the ability to interact with us in a more direct way or they doing so and have those messages been suppressed? JH: They have, some have still gotten through. A gentleman who was a former state legislator, Henry McElroy Jr., made a public statement and a video on youtube which he shared what he had seen of a briefing concerning President Eisenhower's meeting with ET. And the concern was the EBEs, getting rid of

them. The ETs offered to get rid of them but the military thought that, since the ETs would not share technology with them and the EBEs would, which has done us no good, that, no, let's keep these critters around, these slime balls because, you know it edifies a very narrow interest that is concerned basically with an obsession to get there before anyone else does. How many times have we seen monstrosities come about because we were so fearful the Russians would get it first? So we went ahead and worked on something as insane as the neutron bomb, a hydrogen bomb etc., etc.,... because we wanted to be sure we got there first. This never ends; it is a sickness. If you solve problems economically and politically; if you have true diplomacy, you can eliminate the need for these obsessive mindsets. RM: You and I both know and I think most of our listeners understand that we live in a highly compartmentalized social structure. The so-called Red Scare, the Cold War, even the fragments of the NAZI period were all created at the top levels of these service for self governments that run the Earth. That basically this has been man racing man for the purpose of enriching those at the top of the power structure. Talk to me a little bit about what you see at the top of the power structure, what their end game is and how they can conceivably think they can win something like this, given an outside intelligence that's so compellingly able to intervene but apparently not willful to do so. JH: They have taken the idea of feudal primogeniture and obsessed it. And they want to concrete their control and pass it to their offspring intact. And grow in power at the expense of everyone else. In order to do this they have perverted technology to further their control in the form of repression, suppression and eventually an absolute corporate feudal police state. You see that all over, you see governments acceding to corporate control. You saw BP in the Gulf, after they had committed the worst ecological disasters on record, telling the president of the United States what he would and would not do. After they had drilled an experimental well, the deepest ever drilled without affording either Mexico or the United States an environmental impact study... something anyone else would have had to produce, one concession after another, the Coast Guard is turned over to their control, they are given the police rights to threaten people that want to find out what's going on and report, as journalists. Then they are allowed to dispense a controlled substance (Corexit 9500) that has been banned in their own country, something they are paying storage costs on and now they have a chance to get rid of. Of course it's going to sink the oil down on the coral, destroy the coral. It will take thousands of years to replace the coral. Coral plays a paramount role in the ecology of any salt water environment. And doing this... one of the indications of how bad bad can be... is when President Obama came out and said, soon the

Gulf of Mexico will be even better than ever. That statement right there, should go down as the footnote of President Obama and I hope to God people are paying attention. We cannot endure another administration like this. RM: Well, it's been a consistent pattern. Look at the promises made about New Orleans after Katrina. Look at the program that was launched after the Haiti Earthquake. All the massive collection of funds by the two former presidents who seem to be such good buddies, George H.W. Bush and William Jefferson Clinton. Every time we have a disaster they paint it over with this promise that things are going to be better and yet it never seems to get better for the people who were devastated by the original disaster. I mean, they brought New Orleans back but there are entire parts of New Orleans that are still trashed as a result of that with no effort to rebuild New Orleans. There are across the country scattered tens of thousands of expatriated New Orleans residents that have just pulled up stakes and left for good. And if the people from Haiti could possibly swim to a better place, they would do that as well. What we're really seeing is planned devastations on a broad scale. And I say all of that because I want to triangulate here a little bit. One of the data points in the Elenin argument, again I say data points because there may or may not be factual evidence behind it, is the attempt to line up the trajectory of Elenin with various things that have happened on the Earth since 2010 and I am speaking specifically here about the Japan Earthquake of March of this year. JH: Oh, yes, they would like to blame HAARP, and what HAARP was designed to do, effect weather and Earthquakes, they would like to blame that on the sun; they would like to blame that on Elenin, they would... you know, who knows what they have brewing that they would like to blame on Elenin. And that's why I've already predicted that Elenin will not come between Earth and the sun because that would give them too much; they would work out some kind of astrophysics to use as an excuse for some horrible monstrous project that they have in mind that they can blame on... well, you know the gravity wave of Earth is determined by the sun... well it's not... the sun is part of it but, you know, there is a lot more to it than that... if we didn't have the sun we wouldn't be here; so, you know... to make problems that don't exist out of features of nature... let's call it nature, so that you can set up a cloak that you can hide your monstrous designs behind is what these people have done. We call these false flags but that's loose... look at the war on drugs. The war on drugs, just like prohibition, gave a monopoly to the mob. The war on drugs maintains a society in which some of the worst elements scavenge the society and look at the victims from this war on drugs and look at what it has done to countries such as Mexico. It doesn't do anything and hasn't done anything but create more money for the people involved in drugs. RM: And we're in this period of time as well, where we're beginning, we should

be able to understand how money is manipulated and how the economic structure itself is like a monopoly board game controlled at the very top. There is no real money; there is no real wealth because we base wealth on an internal system they control. JH: Of course, we have thought, and been told all along that many of the people that are in some of the think tanks, that are writing articles, certain periodicals that affect and influence professional people, have convinced many of the advisers of these think tanks that, well, we have to have oil since that's the only way we can maintain the value of the dollar. Since oil transactions are under a cartel who is based in the United States and that permits us to keep the dollar propped up because it doesn't have any backing and because our payments of balance deficit with China is so overwhelmingly one-sided. So, in order to keep the dollar from being adjusted to its true value, we have to keep oil and we can't afford alternatives... you see the way in which an argument is fabricated to maintain the status quo even though change is vital, change is vital. In order to maintain the classless, the illusion of a classless society where we supposedly all benefit from the policies that are proscribed on a national/multinational level. This has been shot in the rear for the last twentyfive years as we sit back and watch what we were told would happen when NAFTA and GATT were passed. RM: NAFTA and GATT being nothing but trade/protection acts for the internationalists. JH: Well, they weren't really protection; they were removal of a fair trade formulation that had been applied, even in Kenseyian economics, to maintain the stability of nations that belonged to any kind of money block, trade block, or military alignment to maintain the value of their money to keep their social and economic status stable. Think of all the terms and phrases that applied twentyfive years ago that don't today. Like tariffs, when is the last time you heard the word, tariff? When's the last time you've actually heard the phrase, balance of payment deficit? You haven't, because these are principles that when you view them en tota, you understand are necessary and vital. If you don't want what's happening in the United States and England, all the former industrial nations in the world today then these are principles by which you prevent it. And so it's not protection, it's the removal of protection and sound economic practice. What they've done, they've take the discipline of economics, the field of economics, and destroyed it and replaced it with a bunch of policies that are held together purely on the basis of interests of cartels and international corporations which benefit from moving one nation against another and forcing them into alliances for the benefit of international banking.

RM: It strikes me as you're talking, James, two things, and I'll try and bring this out, first off, it all seems to connect somewhere with the idea of a zero-sum game based on limited energy and materials. That really does not appear to be the model when we go out beyond our own mindset now. It seems like, whatever you might call them, the New World Order, the powers that be, those who sit at the top of the pyramid right now, are attempting to do is suppress what would be the next economy which would be based on what we call free or zero point energy. And yet that, in fact, is the model I see demonstrated by the EMVs, by the extraterrestrial intelligence out there and even by this very phenomenon we see by the example of Elenin, the ability to transport craft across a wide expanse of the solar system in a pretty efficient manner. Is that what we're looking at, we're looking at the suppression of what would be the real next level of humanity based on zero point free energy? JH: If people could observe and apply their deductive abilities, which they all have, to grasp the full ramifications of the EMVs in the sun and to look for answers astrophysicists won't discuss today like dealing with problems (astrophysicists won't discuss today) like how can this star continue its fusion process for billions of years? Why doesn't it run out of energy? Well, it doesn't run out of energy because there is an exchange that replaces as much it takes, of a star with an EMV. RM: Kind of goes into the whole paradigm of our sciences. It's one of the things most bewildering to me not being a scientific person is how stratified is our understanding of the sciences, even astrophysics. We seem again to hold these seemingly conflicted models... the idea of comets being ice balls in space. The very definition of this boggles the mind when you consider these things move in close proximity to stars similar to our own sun and, as you pointed out to me in a conversation yesterday, what happens when ice goes near a sun or star? So, we have problems with our models and our models are not well defined. We seem to be stuck with the law of the conservation of energy, of the second law of thermodynamics. And it seems like that is where they want to keep us now, in a sense, even in an intelligent society, as a science based technological society we're stuck in models that don't work in the reality of what we're seeing played out in the solar system right now. JH: I can tell you, and nobody can contradict me on this, I can tell you about hoaxes the science establishment, and not just in the United States, have practiced on the public for 100 years, gotten away with and never come clean about. When you have examples of this, and you have the public just lied to, like Carl Sagan was so fond of doing. Carl Sagan was an insider; Carl Sagan knew ETs were here, he knew, for instance, there had been communication and contact, he knew a number of things that he denied and he kept talking about how long it would be before we would make contact and the unlikelihood we would make intelligent contact... all along, when he knew that was a lie. So, I

look at Sagan and I look at some of the people today who are not, like Teller, they are not there because they are the best and the brightest; they are there because they will say what they are told to say. RM: Okay, you kind of walked me into this and I'm not against naming names, I don't think we need to smear anyone, but we have one prominent spokesman out there who has postulated that Elenin is kind of what you say it is, gone a step further saying that Elenin may in fact be some sort of ark of human intelligence from the future sending a message to us living in this present time. You want to go at this however you want to... JH: One of the things we have a hard time understanding is that our transmissions from Earth to any much more advanced civilization would be analyzed over time, would be read and that their presence here, which is observable daily, that they would know us as well as we know ourselves, maybe even better. So anything like Elenin, anything like Schuhmacher/Levi, which wasn't a direct communication, they are terra farming Jupiter as we speak. What all of this, is taken into consideration, and what is supplied in demonstrable fashion like with Elenin, is what they think we need most. They are interested in our surviving. They are interested in this lineage surviving. They are doing what they can do; they are showing Elenin as a demonstration, a friendly ET presence and the magnitude of what they are capable of doing. And it will remain friendly, there is nothing to fear from it. But it is a demonstration. Hopefully it will have the meaning it is intended to have, to wake up the people of Earth that all these star war games, all of the weaponization of space, all of it is an abuse, it is unrealistic. And it has a usefulness, kind of like the war on drugs, terrorism... it's actually war against the people. And these are ruses and so is this weaponization of space. So people are being communicated with in a way I hope they understand the ramifications that are implied in the presence of Elenin and how it behaves. But it's not much more than that. It will be large; it will look like a metal rock, very large metal rock. It will demonstrate that it's under intelligent guidance by the way it behaves. And already has, it has attempted to communicate but how it will be perceived will be based on the orchestration of information and how that information is changed and altered and so forth, just like with everything else so... when people make leaps about a phenomenon like this they are usually playing to an agenda and I'm afraid our individual here is playing to confusion. RM: Let's talk a little about some of the preconceived notions as well. Elenin seems to play in rather elegantly with the whole idea of Nibiru/Planet X which triangulates as well with a lot of the interpreted prophecy based on scripture, based on understandings of an apocalyptic end times scenario that has not been... again, it seems to me like most of this has been brewed up and put out into the public domain as sort of a meme for a mind control that has to do with

an apocalyptic end times. JH: Well, anything that throws people off, off track. Anything that makes people feel like: well, there's not much use about us doing anything about this corrupt government, these corrupt wars when we don't know what's coming next, I mean, Second Coming, Nibiru, whatever... all of this is to deflate anything that's on track to actually bring meaningful social and economic change to the people of the planet. That's what we need and if we have this we don't need to worry about the rest of this. The presence of the EMVs and what they do should tell you, if we were on track morally we would be protected. RM: Would it be within the realm of speculation here to say that an advanced intelligent intergalactic society does not require an economic system as we define it... the reason I'm bringing us back to this for a minute is, I think this is an area where our thinking has been stunted as well. Our economic systems are based on models, again, on limits... of limits of material, limits of human capacity, limits of energy. And yet again, the EMVs demonstrate an intelligent management of resources within the solar system that I think have a strong parallel as well to our own system, we call it an economic system. Actually what it is is a management of energy. JH: We are fed lies, one lie after another. Resources only become precious by the way they are utilized. We have people today that are trying to contaminate water supplies so they can make the water they control more valuable. We have people that are thinking about sculpting the North American continent in such a way that the land they own will be more valuable. All of this has been represented in fiction, I won't say science fiction since most science fiction writers play into the hostile alien thesis. Our enemies, the bad people we have to fear are ourselves, among ourselves. They are the pathological narcissists that have been brought up to think they are better than everyone else and that we are useless eaters because we don't contribute to their fortunes. Now when we understand that then we start looking around and we see there are all sorts of answers to famine, to disease that are avoided, that are not discussed, that are suppressed. I can tell you right now there are ways to feed the world, economically and accommodatingly in ways that have not been discussed or approached that would reduce the cost of good nutritious food and provide healthy water at a fraction of what people are being charged today. All the technology that is involved in food production today is going the other way. To make healthy food more difficult to find; to create diseases within our food chain and to eliminate the chances more and more everyday to find a good

supply of potable water. RM: I want to draw you back a few minutes now to the solar system and kind of what is the central thesis of your work with the EMVs. Elenin demonstrates that what we're seeing through telescopes from Earth, at least the telescopes we have access to, the ones they don't control, and I'll just point out too, that the data that produced the original Elenin phenomenon... JH: ... It didn't have a tail, did it? RM: Well, we don't know that because it was vetted. This information was fed to Harvard University, to Jet Propulsion Laboratories, to the group you mentioned before, The Office of Astronomical Telegrams. It seems we don't have a way of understanding what is natural to the solar system, to the galaxy, and further out, to the universes. It seems we are under the perception that we have this strange object in our sky right now that's been there for millenia, called the Moon. And we don't understand what the Moon is. I want you to go into the Moon a little bit because I think maybe your explanation, your understanding of this will help us gain a little more understanding about Elenin itself. JH: There are vast engines inside the Moon that they know about, they know about them because when they operate, when they make adjustments, there are changes in gravity fields on the Moon that are very remarkable and they coincide with changes in gravity fields on the Earth. So they know there is an interrelationship and they have known for a long time. The fact that they know a great deal more about the Moon than they let on and they have found things out about the mineralogy and petrology of the Moon that they couldn't have found out just with rovers, with probes or whatever. That they actually have bases there and they have people doing this work there... I've been in possession of a book that was published on the petrology of the Moon and the information there could not have been compiled unless they actually have teams there doing this work. So, what you have to understand that when they lie to you, misrepresent, when they shade the truth to the extent that they do... then you really don't need to put the faith too many people put in them and you need to understand what we have here are not people being objective, using the scientific method, but we have science gone bad; that's what we have. And you can't blame individuals, because you have a lot of people that went to school, maybe eight years of higher education in order to get their Phds and they became specialists and applied their science in ways that they achieved special abilities. There's nothing wrong with most of these people but they work within a system where the projects they work on are compartmentalized and so, the overview is owned by very few people, probably not scientists, but social

engineers. And so what we end up with is science strained through a bottle-neck of agenda. We can't trust these people to tell us the truth, we know that, so why would we trust the conclusions that they form when they go to present papers, when they go to write articles, when journalists go out to interview them? Because their livelihood depends upon hiding more than they would divulge. And that's the system that they work for. It's just like the public education system. If you are creative, if you would make a great teacher, inspiring children to love to learn, you are out of work! So, that's happened in science, it's happened in engineering, it's happened in fields across the board. And so what we're left with is people that have these abilities, who would be so much more... especially if they could share information openly and not be compartmentalized and confined by security classifications and so forth... even in private corporations. Cause we have corporate sabotage and crap like that, which the government feeds upon. The will create it if it's not there, just like drug traffic... they'll it create because it's useful, it's a tool. As a consequence what we have is, not advances, we don't have people that are able to make the next big step up to develop what could really benefit, what could bring about the most amazing uses for acquiring energy sources, new energy sources, for producing things that are of benefit medically, socially, for structures that have no vulnerability to Earthquakes, for recovering land from holocaust and things... the answers are there, it's just that these disasters are useful to agendas. RM: To redirect a little bit, James, what actually is the Moon, what is the origin of the Moon, how does it relate to us as humanity? JH: The Moon was engineered 325,000 years ago to carry people from a system in rapid decline to a new home. This was the remnants of a peoples that were lucky enough to be on their way to a colony when their system went into rapid decline and there was no hope for it. And so the survivors came to this system. At that time Mars was the best host. They made contact with a highly advanced people that lived underground there and they were able to set up, to bring Mars into a more vital life than it had. And for 50,000 years Mars was an adequate home for these people until they tried to do too much; they tried to develop geothermal energy and the mantle of Mars was too thin to support that. And so they had to leave Mars, they decided to come to Earth. These same people helped them establish themselves here and now we're facing the same thing here only we don't have this same society to save our butt. RM: So what were the Apollo Space Programs, did we actually send teams to the Moon or was that a cover for a larger operation that had already occurred a long time ago?

JH: I'll tell you the truth about that. They had already established bases on the Moon but they could not, they did not... they could but they did not want to divulge the second technology that they had for doing that so they had to pretend that the Roman candle rocket would get the job done and they knew they didn't need to so it was staged. Because they really didn't see any reason for actually sending those guys up on a rocket because the risks that were run. And they've had other means now for sometime. They have hidden a second technology and they've had a second technology around since the Civil War. And the reason there is a suppression of technology, that there is a limitation or control of it and that there is a presence of a second or hidden technology is because they don't want the benefits of these discoveries to threaten cartels. RM: Knowledge has a way of seeping out into the margins. I think you know that as well as I do, that... JH: Yes, and they are, they are. RM: Truth is self-assertive and at the same time we begin to get a sense this whole thing was staged, the space program was a well-funded front for alternatives... not even that, but primary science for science and physics on Earth, which has been suppressed and hidden as well. You talked about the Moon and the effect on gravity. We're under the illusion... and gravity in my mind has never been well defined either what the source of gravity is or how it operates in the solar system and on Earth. Is it correct to say that gravity on the Earth itself is not a constant state but that we have fluctuations in gravity? JH: Yes, now gravity is not just mass and density. Gravity in astrophysics is also the relationship you are in with your star, where you are in relation to your star, the other planets, your Moon, all of these things make up a third element which you might call gravity wave. And I can go into explaining why you might call it a wave but that's already been done, there are people now that are beginning to understand the element of gravity wave and that gravity wave is a signature. And that it is a useful signature for navigating to a system, to a precise location like a planet. Because if you know that signature, you can feed it into your computer and it takes you there. In a more elevated sense it can actually perform as drive. I think this is very well known and I think though that putting it together here again you have this segmentation, this compartmentalized group of scientists that are not benefiting from being able to interrelate. And being obstructed from being able to put this and expose vital data to the finest minds. And to get a consensus that you can go to places. So it's not possible... if we get into a position, a situation threatening to our survival finding the best minds and exposing them to the data they need... to remedy... I don't know that would be possible... how would I know? But I know it would be far more possible if we

didn't have this over-compartmentalization, if we didn't have more and more corporate in-fighting, if what we were paying the government to do with our taxes, they were doing. RM: The reason I brought that up is because a lot of the genesis I have done for the work on this show and what really kind of triggered me into the field of inquiry goes back to a number of things I've experienced and things I intuitively understood when I was young. In 1976 Robert Temple wrote a book called The Sirius Mystery and he talked about the Dogons, an ancient tribe, who understood at that time, without any astronomical tools, the existence of a binary star system called the Sirius Mystery. It seems that, regardless how compartmentalized, how dumbed down we are, in our educational system, there is knowledge within the solar system and the universe that is obtainable by means that are not necessarily empirical. Temple used the Sirius Mystery and the study of the Dogons to predict the existence of other bodies which were later discovered after the book was published. He likewise was suppressed as well... very similar, I think, to the work of Dr. Bergrun who we discussed in the first show. Is there a way that we can now begin to move our consciousness towards understanding the things that are being suppressed from us by the system and how do we break out of this shell? JH: Well, in the past there were remarkable men that were called adepts and they sat at the foot of the throne of rulers and gave them advice. The model for that is, of course, minimalized a great deal but there is an old saying, you had the ear of the monarch. These adepts were often men that had been taught in certain schools. The people today that are trying to obtain spiritual attainment are not privileged in these arts and in this knowledge. Genghis Khan had an adept, Alexander the Great, Alexander of Macedonia and his father, Philip of Macedonia, had adepts. Three of the Pharaohs had adepts. There have been adepts on the Earth for 25,000 years in this lineage. And these men have left, more or less out of disgust. A lot of people today seek as an example of spiritual reality that exceeds the temporal... and our model of time is so erred... I mean, I like the American Indian very much for his disregard of time because he is onto something there. We labor ourselves, we confine ourselves to models for the edification or benefit of the wealthy and powerful and when you really get down to it, you know, my people, remember my people suffer for lack of wisdom, or knowledge - my people suffer from lack of justice. RM: As we kind of close this conversation down, James, we've kind of gone through Elenin in a pretty wide path I think and I liked the conversation. You've put some predictions on the table and I think it's going to be interesting to

watch. I think it's useful to see what they are going to do if Elenin does not enter a path between Sun and the Earth. I want to ask you this: what do you believe the flight path off Elenin will be as it enters the perihelion, nearest point of the Earth, um, some people believe that it's going to do something spectacular. JH: Well, it will, it'll change course radically, almost at right angle and go back out of the system. It will demonstrate that it is under intelligent guidance, that it's friendly and that it has some magnitude. RM: So taking that as kind of a prediction on the table will what is the take away message we want to leave with the audience for this show today, because I think one of the things that we need to debunk is all the fear hat is around it, I mean if you do a Google search on Elenin right now and if you are willing to spend the time to sit through hundreds if not thousands of webpages, it's all over the map and most of it is hysterical, most of it has no boundaries within accepted science even what we have talked about, even within the structures of our convoluted system of astrophysics, what is it that we want to leave the audience with today as both a warning and a comfort. JH: Elenin is demonstrating to you that there is more to astrophysics, that there is more to the universe, there is more to this part of the galaxy than you are being told that your cosmic brotherhood, if you want to think of them as that, and they are well-meaning, cares about you, knows that you are being lead down a wrong direction and is letting you know there are better alternatives, that there is no hostile alien presence and there won't be any tolerated. And that they are a well-meaning and are giving you time to straighten up your mess in the hopes that you will, at you will be advised, they know that you are being played and know that the agenda is being run are against our interests. They want you to know that there are alternatives and that you are not being told about and their very presence indicates that, it shows you what can be done if you get over the hump. Get over the hump and it's a moral thing, it isn't technology, technology is not integral to whether or not you can become a part of an extended community, its overcoming technology, overcoming the perverted use that's being applied to technology on Earth. RM: You talked in our first interview about civilizations that advanced beyond the physical technology that we consider to be so epic right now. You talked about spiritual technology and that that ultimately has to be our goal because the technology that we presently have is controlled and it is intended to enslave us. What is your vision of technology and what is your vision for humankind if we can pass this current threshold. JH: Well know, spiritual technology is something else, it's very rare and the people that were on Mars at that time that humankind came to this system, did

reach spiritual technology. The same happened to the people that created the EBEs but that's very rare. What we would hope for, is that people of of the Earth realize that there are better ways in doing things, that technology is not an end in itself without a moral of determinant, without a moral core involved, that there are certain things that are just not done and these are the things that are almost being exclusively done today. If we change and we focus and concentrate on moral determinants and take this power out of the hands of mad men then we are candidates for consideration of belonging to something greater. When we remove abberrance, individual and collective abberrance from more of society, from our planetary society, we are assured of becoming members of an extended community where there is no disease, there is no want, there will be no disproportionate distribution of wealth, all of this things have no meaning and we will be able to explore new realms efficiently, extensively and we will have a way of life that we can't even apprehend now. RM: I think that's actually a great place to park it for this show, James I want to thank you for coming and for sharing your insights, your views and your unique perspective on a subject that right now needs a little bit of calm consideration and deliberation. Anything else you want to say before we close out here? JH: Just don't fear from what comes from the outside, there is nothing unfriendly, deal with what's here and now, it needs to change. RM: that's going to do it for this time, this is OffPlanet Radio, I am Randy Maugans, the truth is out there, it's inside you, keep looking for it, we'll be back with another show very soon.