Wrath - What Is The Difference Between Orge And Thumos?

Hi Mike,

I really have no one here in Colorado that I can fellowship with about these truths,
and I am looking forward to seeing all of you again.

My comments and question revolves around this word wrath. There are two Greek
words that are translated "wrath" in the New Testament scriptures:

1) orge (Strongs #3709) also translated anger and indignation

2) thymos (Strongs #2372) - also translated indignation and fierceness

I've read from several people that these two words essentially mean the same thing
and can be used interchangeably. To which I would ask, if they essentially mean the
same thing, why then does Paul in two instances use them as two separate qualities
of those that obey not the truth?
Romans 2:8 - But to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey
unrighteousness, indignation (thymos), and wrath (orge)....

Colossians 3:8 - But now you also put off all these: anger (orge), wrath (thymos),
malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

John also uses the two words in the same sentence twice in Revelation:

Revelation 14:10 - The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath (thymos) of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation (orge)...

Revelation 16:19 - And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of
the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto
her the cup of the wine of the fierceness (thymos) of his wrath (orge).

If they both mean the same thing, why did the Spirit inspire both Paul and John to
use two different words for the same thing in the same sentence?

After searching a little more, I actually did find a couple of websites that did actually
distinguish the two. Here are their basic deliniations:

thymos - sudden passionate anger; anger boiling up and subsiding again

orge - deliberate anger; hostile vengeance

Taking these definitions into account makes it easier for me to understand how we
are not appointed to wrath...
I Thes 5:9 For we are not appointed to wrath (orge)

...meaning we are not appointed to God's deliberate hostile vengeance. Yes, at one
time, we were "children of wrath (orge)", but that was by nature. Everyone by our
very nature, by the way God made us are children of wrath, but God has appointed
the elect from the foundation of the world that they should overcome their beastly
nature therefore not being appointed to wrath (orge).

And what is this orge? Quite possibly the lake of fire. Joseph, typifying Christ,
surely exhibited this deliberate anger and hostile vengeance towards his brothers
for what they did to him.

Thymos, on the other hand, is the word used in Revelation when talking about the
seven bowl judgements.

Revelation 15:1 - And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven
angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath (thymos) of
God.

If the elect are not appointed to wrath (orge), but they are all to keep the sayings of
the prophecy of Revelation, then it makes sense that the elect go through the seven
last plagues because the wrath spoken of there is not that of deliberate anger, but
that of a sudden passionate anger that boils up and subsides again - just like the
chastening and scourging spoken of in Hebrews 12:6. I picture it much like when I
was a child how my mother, when I did something wrong, would get out the belt
and in her anger spank my little bottom silly, but once I got my licks, it was over -
sudden, passionate anger. I remember from one of your talks how you said that it
seems like everytime you tried to go through the HOV lane with just yourself in the
car, God gave immediate sudden punishment for you, while others who were doing
the same thing got to speed on by without being caught. That is how I see thymos.

The lake of fire, however, will not be a sudden passionate chastening (thymos). It is
deliberate (orge) and will last as long as needs to to burn out the wood, hay, and
stubble of all those whom God has before ordained to go through it.

Does this make sense to you? Or am I way off base on this?

Hope you and your family are doing well. I am constantly on the website and
always look forward to all the updates.

God bless, E____

Hi E____,

Thank you for sharing your study on this subject with me. I am truly blessed of God
to receive the benefits of the studies of so many who are seeking only to know the
mind of God.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

That is a powerful and revealing verse of scripture right out of the mouth of our
Lord.

You ask:

"Does this make sense to you? Or am I way off base on this?"

You certainly are not "way off base." But I would point out that the "last plagues"
are the plagues which are experienced by those who experience the seven plagues
"last." So that it is true that "he that overcomes will not be hurt of the second [last]
death."

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the
churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

While it is true that "No man can enter the temple until the seven plagues of the
seven angels are fulfilled," it is not true that 'No man enters the temple until the
seven last plagues of the seven angels is fulfilled.'

Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his
power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues
of the seven angels were fulfilled .

So God's elect avoid the wages of sin which is death, but the way they do so is by
dying. Even so God's elect also avoid the second death by being the first to die. And
they avoid the seven last plagues, by being the first to fulfill the seven plagues of
God against all unrighteousness and ungodliness in their lives and by being "by
nature the children of wrath" first.

I also think you need to take a closer look at the 'We' and the 'us' of 1 Thessalonians
5 and notice that when Paul says "we are not appointed to wrath," that he has
shifted his subject from God's elect to the subject of 'all in Adam,' " whether we
wake or sleep."
I have looked at these verses you have here and it seems that there is, no doubt, a
distinction in these words. It appears that 'thumos' - 2372 is the emotion we call
anger, while 'orge' - 3709 is the implementation of that emotion which produces the
flames needed to purge and burn out all the wood, hay and stubble.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth
not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath [orge] of God abideth on him.

This verse never said 'he will never see life,' but only that so long as he is not a
believer he "shall not see life; but the wrath [orge] of God abideth on him."

Let's start first by looking more closely at what we find in 1 Thessalonians 5:

A close look at 1 Thessalonians 5 shows that the 'we' of verse nine is a reference to
all of mankind instead of God's elect. "God's wrath (orge) is revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in
unrighteousness;"

Rom 1:18 For the wrath [orge] of God is revealed from heaven against all
ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

This is saying the same thing that John 3 says:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth
not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath [orge] of God abideth on him.

So in reality there is no one who is not going to experience God's wrath on their
unrighteousness and ungodliness. We will all "live by every word that proceeds out
of the mouth of God," and we will all "keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book"
in our appointed time. What Paul means when he says "We are not appointed to
wrath" is that mankind, whether awake or asleep, elect or not, are appointed to
salvation as a whole:

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they
that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and
power.

If we are going to insist that "we are not appointed to wrath" refers only to God's
elect, then we are insisting that "we were all children of wrath by nature" in
Ephesians two is a contradiction of 1 Thessalonians 5:9. We are thus insisting that
God's word is not consistent and is unreliable. Here is what we are told in Ephesian
2:

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,
according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the
children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts
of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature
the children of wrath, even as others.

"We all... in times past... were by nature the children of wrath, even as others [who
will not experience that purging wrath first, but will experience it last]. Why is it that
we can see the 'as in Adam' but we cannot see "even as others" when it comes to
this subject of God's wrath. The reason is the false doctrines of the rapture and the
false doctrine that God's elect were never the "children of wrath even as others."
The reason why is that we want God's word to conform to our doctrine instead of
making God's Word our doctrine.

Let's look at 1 Thessalonians 5 and the verses around verse nine:

1 Thess 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I
write unto you.
1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh
as a thief in the night.
1 Thess 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not
escape.
1 Thess 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake
you as a thief.
1 Thess 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not
of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Thess 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be
sober.
1 Thess 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are
drunken in the night.
1 Thess 5:8 But let us , who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of
faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our
Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thess 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live
together with him.
1 Thess 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even
as also ye do.
"But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night,
nor of darkness.
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the
night.
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and
love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

"Ye are not in darkness... we are not of the night... us who are of the day..," all of
these phrases are contrasted with "others who sleep... they that sleep in the night...
they that be drunken in the night... have no hope:"

1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them
which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

These "others which have no hope" are the same as the "others that sleep, sleep in
the night... and are drunken in the night."

Here we have God's elect contrasted with "others which have no hope." Notice
what verses eight and nine say:

1 Thess 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of
faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our
Lord Jesus Christ,

Here we have the same word 'us' used in both of these verses, and it appears that
they are speaking of the same 'us' until you consider that all of mankind is
"appointed to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ:"

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they
that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and
power.

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in
the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also
for the sins of the whole world.

To settle this question with all certainty, all we need to do is to look at the next
verse which makes it clear that the second 'us' is not the same as the first 'us:'
1 Thess 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live
together with him.

In verses 4-8 these pronouns 'us' and 'we' were used to distinguish those who were
"awake [and] of the day" from those who were "sleeping in the night." But here in
verses nine and ten Paul is no longer making this distinction. Paul had dealt with
the death of those who had died "in Christ" in chapter 4. In Chapter 5 he goes to
great lengths to separate believers from non-believers and concludes with "Who
died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."

"Whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him" means whether we
are elect or not, "as in Adam all die, so in Christ we will all be made alive." And why
is that? Here is what verses nine and ten of 1 Thessalonians 5 is all about:

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might
be Lord both of the dead and living.

For God hath not appointed us [the spiritually dead, "all in Adam"] to wrath [the
wages of sin - death], but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. If we do not
believe on Christ, the wrath [orge] of God continues to abide on us and we may be
burying a loved one, but God's wrath is still on us and we are spiritually dead:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth
not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

But when we believe on Christ we "have passed from death unto live and the wrath
of God no longer abides on us:

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of
disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,
according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the
children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts
of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature
the children of wrath, even as others.

So now Paul has dealt with the fate of those who have died not knowing Christ:

1 Thess 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live
together with him.

In chapter four Paul had told the believers about their loved ones who had died in
Christ:
1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also
which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are
alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are
asleep.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise
first:
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the
Lord.
1 Thess 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here in chapter 5 he has now dealt with those who died not knowing Christ:...

1 Thess 5:10 Who [Christ] died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we
should live together with him.

...and his conclusion, just as with those who are dead in Christ is:

1 Thess 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even
as also ye do.

I hope this helps you to see that the 'we' of verse nine is not the 'we' and 'us' of
verses 4-8 of chapter five. The New Testament is written just like the Old insofar as
it is designed to blind and cover "the mysteries of the kingdom of God."

I will close with an example of this point right there in John three where we were told
that God's wrath abides on non-believers:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that
believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Just a few verses earlier we are told that "no man believes His testimony:

"John 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man
receiveth his testimony.

Followed immediately by this statement:

John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

There are those who would insist; "You can't say 'We are not appointed to wrath and
we must endure God's wrath.' You cannot have it both ways."

Those are the reasonings of a "babe in Christ... carnal mind (1 Cor. 3:1-4) who
understands nothing at all about the Is, Was and Will Be nature of Christ and His
word. Such people cannot understand what "each in his own order" means. Such a
person doesn't believe that "there is a time for all things..." or that we must "live by
every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God" and "keep the sayings of the
prophecy of this book."

But the words of our Lord are True and are not at all affected by our lack of
understanding or our lack of faith. The Truth still remains:

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass
away.

Man will indeed "live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."

Mike