-SK/YSR/6.00/4D DR. MANOHAR JOSHI (CONTD.

): For that, what was required was leaving aside ego in the minds. Then people would have started Corruption has, no doubt,

thinking of the people of the country.

become an important issue. I was very happy when the debate was opened in the House by Shri Arun Jaitley. It was followed by Dr. Abhishek Manu Singhvi and then by Shri Satish Chandra Misra and then by some others. The issue was raised because there were a number of legal points. Thereafter also in the debate I could hear, fortunately, that all the Members, whichever party they may belong to, were anxious to speak on this issue; they wanted to put forward their views. The only difficulty while listening to the debate I thought was that the main issue was being neglected and procedural issues were getting more importance. Sir, today, not only in our country but in other parts of the world, this issue is treated as the most important issue. And, therefore, on this issue I wanted that the people sitting here should make recommendations for removing corruption totally. Some Members did speak about it. This issue is pending since 1966. The Administrative

Reforms Commission in its Report in 1966 had given suggestions on problems of redress of citizens grievances. Since then, this issue came up eight times before this House or the Other House. But it could not be settled. And therefore today this discussion is absolutely important and, to my mind, the decision, which we will take after the discussion, will be historic. People are aware that corruption is

everywhere. People also think that corruption cannot go any time by passing any law. I treat this as an experiment. But at the same time I must make it clear that we have made certain suggestions. A number of Members have given their amendments. They have demanded that this particular Bill needs important amendments before passing so that the people of the country get relaxation. Sir, I will make only one suggestion. A number of ways and means have already been tried. But they failed. Some people

thought that the CVC could do it. Some people thought that this could be done by passing the Anti Corruption Act. But I dont think this will be sufficient. If you really want to remove the corruption what is necessary is to change the mindset of the people in the country. Who can do it? Sir, I always think that the debate in the House is useful as a guidance. But actual implementing authorities are

different. Implementing authorities are the people. But they did not think that it was necessary. These are the people who are higher officials in the administration. I personally always feel that if you try to do something with concentration and if you really apply your mind, corruption can be removed. (Contd. by VKK/4E)

-YSR/VKK-SCH/4e/6.05 DR. MANOHAR JOSHI (CONTD.): Of course, at the same time, even this type of Bill in the new manner can be able to restrict corruption to a certain extent. But, the way I had suggested as the Chief Minister of Maharashtra was that if you seriously want corruption to go, you should start giving education right from childhood and their minds should be made such that in their minds there is a great thought that we are working for the country and corruption is coming in the way of prosperity. Indeed, I amended the Act to the extent that in every school, the first lesson should be on morality and nationality. Are you not prepared to do this right from childhood? I personally feel that if it is done, there will be no difficulty in removing corruption. Corruption is not an issue which is an act of God. It is an issue which we have

created. And, if we have created this issue, we can always resolve this issue. Therefore, firstly, if such type of Lokpal Bill is brought, it should have been unanimous and secondly, if you want to take proper care, it should have been taken right from the childhood. But, it did not happen. Therefore, right from the beginning, as I said, it has already spread like cancer in the country. I am afraid that this Lokpal might become another centre of power in the country and this is the main point of my participating in the discussion. Sir, after reading the Bill, I found that the Bill is drafted in such a way that this country may come in danger. Its not a question of individuals. We are the representatives of the people and, therefore, we have met them a number of times and the general thought amongst the people is that corruption will never go. If this thought has come to their mind, it is because they do not believe that Parliament can do something in this. While creating a Lokpal, it must be kept in mind that the democracy must remain untouched and, therefore, Parliament should always remain supreme and above Lokpal. But, has it happened? According to me, this did not happen. The Parliament may not remain supreme after this Bill because earlier there was a

provision that Members of both the Houses will also come under Lokpal. Sir, in such a Bill, there should not be a personal prestige of individuals or there should be no prestige of any political party. Therefore, if we really want removal of corruption, this can be done without fail. The Lokpal Committee which has been appointed has also to work very seriously because this may probably be the last chance in our country to remove corruption. MR. CHAIRMAN: Joshiji, please conclude. DR. MANOHAR JOSHI: We feel that the Prime Minister should be brought within the purview of the Lokpal Bill, of course, with some conditions. The judiciary should be kept absolutely independent and should not be brought under Lokpal at any level. If there is any mistake on the part of Lokpal, there should be a provision to remove him through impeachment proceedings in Parliament. Sir, this Bill has to be looked from different angles. I have also seen both the Bills draft Lokpal Bill and the Jan Lokpal Bill. It can be discussed in detail. (Contd. by MKS/4f) MKS-VNK/6.10/4F

DR. MANOHAR JOSHI (CONTD.):

But, today, what is most

important for me is one of the conditions that the Lokpal will have. It is said, All State anti-corruption agencies would be closed and responsibilities taken over by the Central Government Lokpal. And in the Jan Lokpal Bill, it is said, Lokayukta and other local/State anticorruption agency would remain in place. I personally feel that my State, i.e. Maharashtra State, is very serious on this issue because Lokayukta, so far, was appointed mostly by the Chief Ministers, and the authority of the Chief Minister going away is also a difficulty in federal form of our country. Are we not serious about it? Are we not interested in seeing that the Lokpal should not be some authority which is above the State Government? I found, after reading the Bill, that there are a number of clauses which, in case of Central Government, are against the State Government and which, in case of States, are against the Central Government. And I can always say, on behalf of my State, that if the appointments are taken in hand by the Central Government, say, in the form of this Bill, I am afraid, the Maharashtra State will never cooperate with this type of Bill. Therefore, I have decided, my party has decided to totally oppose the Bill which has come before us. The party will oppose, and I dont

think that the Government also, after such a discussion, will try to go ahead. The Shiv Sena wants to make its stand clear that such things can be avoided. Sir, one point is that the Lokpal can issue contempt orders and has the ability to punish those in contempt. No authority to obtain wiretaps, issue rogatory letters, or recruit investigating officers. Sir, these are the things which are asked by the agitators. somewhere, such things are absolutely required to be stopped. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Please conclude now. DR. MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, I will take just two minutes more. Sir, we support some parts of the Lokpal Bill, and also, the demands made by the people who are agitating. Therefore, those points I have to make clear; that aspect of bringing the lower bureaucracy under the purview of Lokpal is not acceptable, but we support the uniform Lokayukta law at the State level. There should be tools to remove Lokpal if found guilty and corrupt. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Joshiji. DR. MANOHAR JOSHI: Parliament should be empowered to impeach the Lokpal. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. But,

DR. MANOHAR JOSHI: Sir, these are the few issues which I have mentioned here, and I personally feel that this entire Bill be taken seriously. It will require some time. If you really want to have this Bill passed in the interest of the people, let there be a serious discussion, and if, after the discussion, such a Bill comes considering whatever we agree, within a few minutes it would be passed. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. DR. MANOHAR JOSHI: What is the point of difference in arguments? What you are trying to do is not something that the people are happy about. They say, and I have already mentioned that, if you appoint a good machinery to work in this Department, I am confident that the purpose for which this Bill has come can go..... MR. CHAIRMAN: Please conclude. DR. MANOHAR JOSHI: And, finally, Sir, I will say that corruption

involves a whole range of activities, from bribery, influence peddling, patronage or favour, nepotism electoral fraud, kickbacks to officials and involvement in organised crimes. MR. CHAIRMAN: You must conclude now. DR. MANOHAR JOSHI: These are the things which can totally remove the corruption in the country. Therefore, I oppose the Bill on behalf of

Shiv Sena, and also, I would request the Government either to totally withdraw such type of Bill or to pass it without voting. But this

suggestion must come from the ruling party itself, if you agree with me and other Members who have spoken. (Contd. by TMV/4G)

-MKS-TMV-DS/4G/6.15 DR. MANOHAR JOSHI (CONTD.): This can be done by either

withdrawing this Bill or taking back the proposal that you have given. That is in the interest of the people of the country and not in the interest of any political party. Thank you very much. (Ends)

** Pp 266 onwards will be issued as a supplement.