ana vaz milheiro e manuel graa dias enTrevisTam iNTERViEW

Tiago moTa saraiva

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subverTer a ideia de que no h fuTuro

subverTing The idea ThaT There is no fuTure

Manuel Graa Dias: Sobre este momento de crise que atravessamos e sobre o qual j se pronunciou com alguma radicalidade circula uma alternativa, em tempos lanada por Eduardo Souto de Moura, entrevistado a propsito do Prmio Pritzker, que a nova gerao tem de emigrar. Pensamos ser uma posio conformista. Haver arquitectos a mais? Se a emigrao fosse a soluo, diria que estvamos num Pas sem futuro. Comeo invocando o estafado argumento neoliberal de reduzir as questes sobre o ensino superior pblico ao tema do investimento. Se estamos a investir na formao, o que se passa neste momento que esse investimento est, sobretudo, a ser utilizado fora de Portugal. No se tem estudado o que os arquitectos formados em Portugal esto a fazer l fora: h quem esteja a constituir famlia, a formar ateliers ou outras estruturas, e h quem esteja a trabalhar na construo de uma nova agenda para a arquitectura mundial. Ana Vaz Milheiro: Est por saber onde que esto e o que fazem esses portugueses Exactamente. importante referir que a nossa crise no aparece hoje. No me lembro de trabalhar em Portugal, sem ser em crise. Estive fora durante dois anos e quando regressei, em 2002, questes como os baixos oramentos, ou cortes em projectos, sempre fizeram parte do nosso dia-a-dia de trabalho. Fora de Portugal trabalhei em alguns projectos milionrios. Lembro-me de um, em particular, para o qual no havia um tecto oramental. Nunca achei que a falta desse dado fosse especialmente interessante para o resultado final. Era como um desenho sem escala. Em Portugal, para os arquitectos mais novos, os limites oramentais so parte fundamental dos processos de projecto. Estamos especialmente habilitados a trabalhar com pouco. Entre as novas geraes muito rara a grande encomenda, privada ou pblica, que estruture um atelier, ao invs do que sucedeu com as geraes anteriores. Mas a grande diferena, neste momento, a sensao de no se ter futuro; de se estar a caminhar para o vazio. Sente-se que ainda no batemos no fundo. Por exemplo, foi aprovado um Oramento de Estado que toda a gente sabe que em poucos meses ser reforado por novas medidas de austeridade. Contudo, no partilho da ideia de que existam uns Eldorados que facilmente podero salvar as nossas empresas. Alis, penso que uma tendncia nossa, muito ps-colonial, pensar que chegamos a pases como Angola ou Brasil e, com enorme facilidade e arrogncia, desatamos a fazer dinheiro repetindo os modelos de especulao imobiliria e financeira que fizeram o nosso Pas chegar ao que chegou. AVM: Segundo a imprensa, o Governo angolano disse, mais ou menos oficialmente, que precisava de quadros; no falou de arquitectos especificamente, mas que o pas estaria receptivo imigrao... O Canad tambm.

Manuel Graa Dias: About this period of crisis we are going through about which you have already had some quite radical things to say an alternative has been circulating, one put forward by Eduardo Souto de Mouro when he was interviewed on the occasion of winning the Pritzker Prize, that the new generation has to emigrate. We think that is a conformist position. Are there too many architects? If emigration were the solution, I would say we were in a country without a future. Let me start by invoking the tired neo-liberal argument of reducing public higher education to the issue of investment. If we are investing in education, then what is happening at the moment is that that investment is being put to use above all outside Portugal. There have been no studies on what architects trained in Portugal are doing out there: some may be starting families, setting up firms or other structures and some working on the construction of a new agenda for world architecture. Ana Vaz Milheiro: We still dont know where those Portuguese are or what they are doing Exactly. Its important to note that our crisis didnt just emerge today. I cant remember working in Portugal without a crisis. I spent two years abroad and when I got back in 2002, issues such as low budgets and cuts in projects were always part of the daily routine. Outside Portugal I worked on some big-money projects. I remember one in particular for which there was no budget ceiling. I never thought that not having any limits had a particularly interesting effect on the final result. It was like a drawing without scale. For us younger architects working in Portugal, budgetary limits are a fundamental part of the design process. We are particularly well equipped for working with little. For todays younger generations the large commission private or public that is enough to structure a firm, is very rare, which was not the case for preceding younger generations. But the big difference today is this feeling of not having a future; of heading toward the void. In Portugal the feeling is that we still havent hit rock bottom. For example, a State Budget was passed and everyone knows it will be reinforced with new austerity measures in a few months time. However, I do not share the idea that there are El Dorados that could easily save our firms. Indeed, I think it is a tendency we have, a very neo-colonial one, to think that we can go to countries like Angola or Brazil and with great ease, and no less arrogance, and just start making money by repeating the property and financial speculation models that left our own country in the state it is in today.

ENTREViSTa iNTERViEW 37

AVM: According to the press, the Angolan government has more or less officially declared that it needs qualified specialists they didnt mention architects specifically and that the country was open to immigration Canada, too. AVM: The question is not so much whether we have a lot to teach others; it is perhaps more in the sense you spoke of at the beginning: if we put forward the idea of emigration as a way out, are we talking about a country without a future? We are exporting the best products of our education system. We have had several periods of emigration before and we have to understand them, but in all of them we have been able to clearly identify the reasons. The emigration from the 1950s to 1970s affected all classes. MGD: With big differences; a large part of the emigration of the 60s and 70s was very poor people from the country; the intellectuals who fled army service were comparatively few; otherwise there wouldnt have been the 25th April Revolution AVM: A country that exports its best prepared citizens, the young people who are in the universities, in whom we are investing to create wealth, runs the risk, ten years from now, of being a country with no critical mass Of course. They go abroad in a no-other-way-out situation; it is emigration with no safety net, no other option. In my generation, after finishing university, people emigrated on an Erasmus or Leonardo basis: we would go to work abroad with a view to learning new things, but the ones who didnt think of returning were exceptions. Today, people who emigrate dont know if they will return. In the 60s, some of those who emigrated knew they would as soon as the regime fell. AVM: But in this current crisis, what role is reserved for architects? In English they have an expression that we Portuguese have variably translated as architecture of causes, social architecture, architecture of emergency. That would seem to me to be the new global agenda for architecture. This can also be seen in the new firms based in Portugal such as Blaanc (Ana Morgado, Lara Camilla Pinho, Maria da Paz Sequeira Braga and Maria do Carmo Caldeira), Moov (Antnio Louro, Joo Calhau and Jos Niza) and Urban Nouveau (Filipe Balestre and Sara Gransson), to name just a few. On account of objective conditions we have known we have a specific aptitude. Because we have always lived in crisis or have always been prepared for crisis. There are objective conditions for us to have specialist know-how (and I dont mean just one generation, but the whole profession). That know-how could be extremely important for the country. AVM: What English term are you referring to? Architecture of Causes, which translates directly to Arquitectura de Causas [in Portuguese] a term Im not particularly fond of. I think the term architecture of emergency best contextualises this particular know-how, which may become a very important resource for the country. You dont have to be a clairvoyant to guess that there will be an emergency situation within a short time. If were not in one already. AVM: And is it then that architects will act? The architects are in the field already, even if it is in other contexts. When I speak to blaanc, I understand that they have very few work opportunities in Portugal and that their centre is abroad. AVM: Can we not see this type of output as a type of trend, just like when all talk was of the idea of sustainability a few

AVM: A questo no tanto nos modelos que podemos transmitir; a questo talvez seja mais no sentido que referiu no incio: se colocamos a ideia da emigrao como uma sada, estaremos a falar de um Pas sem futuro? Estamos a exportar o que de melhor formamos. certo que j tivemos vrios perodos de emigrao e preciso perceb-los, mas em todos conseguimos identificar bem os motivos. A emigrao dos anos 1950-1970 atingia todas as classes sociais. MGD: Com grandes diferenas, parte da emigrao dos anos de 1960, 1970, de gente muito pobre do mundo rural; os intelectuais que fugiram tropa foram muito poucos, comparativamente; se no, no teria havido o 25 de Abril... AVM: Mas neste momento Portugal um Pas que exporta a sua populao mais bem preparada, os jovens que esto na Universidade e nos quais se est a investir para criar riqueza. Claro. Trabalha-se fora numa situao sem recurso a emigrao est a ser feita sem rede, sem outra opo. Na minha gerao, a seguir universidade, emigrou-se na lgica dos Erasmus, dos Leonardos; ia-se para fora, numa perspectiva de aprendizagem, mas era raro quem no pensasse regressar. Actualmente, as pessoas que emigram no sabem se vo regressar. Nos anos de 1960, uma parte da emigrao sabia que regressaria assim que o Regime casse. AVM: Mas na actual crise, que papel est reservado aos arquitectos? Os anglo-saxnicos tm uma expresso que em portugus inclui uma srie de termos desde arquitectura de causas, social, de emergncia. Esta parece-me ser a nova agenda da arquitectura mundial. E vemos inmeros arquitectos portugueses a trabalhar por esse mundo fora, nessa nova agenda. Por outro lado, isso tambm se v nos novos ateliers que trabalham a partir de Portugal como as Blaanc [Ana Morgado, Lara Camilla Pinho, Maria da Paz Sequeira Braga e Maria do Carmo Caldeira], os Moov [Antnio Louro, Joo Calhau e Jos Niza] ou os Urban Nouveau [Filipe Balestra e Sara Gransson], entre tantos outros. Pelas nossas condies objectivas h uma especial aptido para enfrentar situaes de crise. Por termos vivido sempre em crise ou por termos sido muito preparados para ela. H condies objectivas para termos um know-how especial (e no falo s de uma gerao, mas de toda uma classe profissional). Esse know-how pode ser importantssimo para o Pas. AVM: Qual essa expresso anglo-saxnica que refere? Architecture of causes, o que traduzido directamente nos levaria aos arquitectos de causas expresso de que no gosto particularmente. Acho que a denominao de arquitectura de emergncia a que melhor enquadra este know-how e que se pode transformar num recurso importantssimo para o Pas. No preciso ser-se bruxo para adivinhar que vai haver uma situao de emergncia dentro de pouco tempo. Se que j no existe agora. AVM: E nesse momento que os arquitectos vo actuar? Os arquitectos j esto no terreno, ainda que noutros contextos. Quando falo com as Blaanc, percebo que tm muito poucas oportunidades de trabalho em Portugal e que o seu centro l fora. AVM: No podemos ver, nesse tipo de produo, uma espcie de moda, como quando h uns anos se falava da ideia da sustentabilidade A ideia de uma arquitectura de emergncia no se tem tornando um slogan? Sim, mas isso o que menos me preocupa. Se analisarmos os media internacionais que marcam as modas na arquitectura, como por exemplo a Abitare ou a Domus, j tm a poltica e as questes sociais como temas centrais. AVM: Mas se isso uma moda, ou um slogan, exige mais dinheiro do que aquele que gera... Tem que haver dinheiro para abrir concursos

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MGD: E vontade poltica. Mas a partir do momento em que se transforma numa moda, comea a influenciar as vontades polticas. O Guggenheim do Frank O. Gehry criou uma moda. Houve uma moda de Guggenheims. Com a crise, o chamado efeito Guggenheim tem vindo a desaparecer, mas no esqueamos que tambm foi devastador para uma srie de cidades. Justificavam-se intervenes por serem projectadas por este ou aquele arquitecto. O Guggenheim de Bilbau foi uma operao urbana bem sucedida que justificou uma srie de outras menos bem sucedidas pelo mundo fora e, sobretudo, excessivamente intrusivas e pouco participadas. AVM: Acha que essa arquitectura de emergncia no ser igualmente intrusiva? Que valores que tem? Est em construo e para j, acho que se trata de uma nova agenda para a arquitectura a nvel global que vem substituir a ideia da arquitectura icnica.

years ago Has the idea of architecture of emergency not become just a slogan? Yes, but Im not so worried about that. If you look at the international media that set the trends in architecture, such as Abitare and Domus, they already have politics and social questions as central themes. AVM: But if its a fashion, or a slogan, it needs more money than what it generates There has to be money to launch competitions MGD: And political will. But the moment it becomes a fashion it begins to influence political will. Frank O. Gehrys Guggenheim started a fashion. There was a Guggenheim fashion. When the crisis came, the Guggenheim effect disappeared, but lets not forget that it was devastating for a number of cities. Interventions were justified because they were designed by this or that architect. The Guggenheim in Bilbao was a successful urban operation that served as justification for a number of other operations around the world that were less successful and, above all, excessively intrusive and involved little participation. AVM: Do you not think this architecture of emergency is just as intrusive? What are its values? For now, I think that its a new agenda for architecture at the global level and replaces the idea of iconic architecture. Its still under construction. AVM: In recent years architecture has been looking for redeeming programmes: iconic architecture, followed by sustainable architecture and now we have architecture of emergency. Will buzzword help architects to manifest themselves and gain influence with the powers that be? Just like any other argument that gets caught up in the political agenda (see sustainability or being green), it will be absorbed; I see this social architecture thing as an opportunity to influence processes, to turn them upside down. Ill give you the example of Oaxaca in Mexico, where the Blaanc team, Joo Caeiro and Fulvio Capurso, are working directly with a local community of women. It is a self-building project. First they had to understand what the best building process was and how much it cost; in a way they began at what we would consider the end. This type of action can unravel the disciplinary knot we have tied ourselves in. I worked at the firm of Massimiliano Fuksas in Rome for two years. We were designing things for places around the world and I learned a lot about different realities. We centred the discourse around iconic architecture, auteur architecture. Those who sought us out were looking for auteur architecture. When I came back to Portugal I felt that that was not going to be my haven. But I only became fully aware of this after a few years, after having set up the firm [Extrastudio] with five other colleagues who came from similar experiences (indeed, these two opposing visions, I think, were at the basis of the main arguments we had there). The Roman experience was two years of intense learning, but it also allowed me to understand what place within the discipline I wanted to occupy. AVM: Were you bothered by the absence of limits?. At a certain point it was as if we were designing for the moon or without a centre of gravity. And that was really a very interesting thing to be doing for a certain period in your life. At the moment I feel more useful thinking about the processes. One of the things I would like to work on in the ateliermob processes would be to find an instrument that would allow us to measure the costs of the design options we make in real time. Our daily work needs more and more to have a global interpretation, including economic matters.

no sei porque que no h um Treinador de fuTebol arquiTecTo! h uma quesTo de espacialidade no fuTebol

AVM A arquitectura anda, nos ltimos anos, procura de programas redentores: a arquitectura iconogrfica, depois, a arquitectura sustentvel... agora a arquitectura de emergncia. atravs de chaves que o arquitecto se manifesta e ganha influncia junto do poder poltico? Como qualquer argumento que caia na agenda poltica (veja-se a sustentabilidade ou o verde) vai ser sempre absorvido; vejo esta questo da arquitectura social como uma oportunidade de influenciar os processos, colocando-os de pernas para o ar. Dou-vos o exemplo de Oaxaca, no Mxico, em que as Blaanc, o Joo Caeiro e o Fulvio Capurso, esto a trabalhar directamente com uma comunidade local de mulheres. Trata-se de um processo de auto-construo. Primeiro tiveram de perceber qual era o melhor processo construtivo e quanto custava; de alguma forma comearam pelo que pensamos ser o fim. Este tipo de aces pode desembrulhar o n disciplinar em que estamos metidos. Trabalhei durante dois anos no atelier do Massimiliano Fuksas em Roma. Projectvamos para todo o mundo e aprendi imenso sobre diferentes realidades. Ali centralizvamos o discurso na arquitectura cone, de autor. Quem nos procurava queria uma arquitectura de autor. Quando regressei a Portugal, senti que essa no ia ser a minha praia. Mas essa conscincia s a tive passado uns anos, depois de ter fundado um atelier [Extrastudio] com outros cinco colegas que provinham de experincias semelhantes (alis, essas duas vises opostas creio que estiveram na base das principais discusses que ali se fizeram). A minha experincia romana resultado de dois anos de imensa aprendizagem, mas tambm me permitiu perceber o lugar disciplinar em que me queria enquadrar. AVM: Incomodava-o a ausncia de limites? A determinada altura, como se estivssemos a projectar para a Lua ou sem centro de gravidade. O que interessantssimo fazer por um determinado perodo da vida. Neste momento, sinto-me mais til a pensar nos processos. Uma das coisas que gostava de trabalhar nos processos que desenvolvemos no nosso atelier actual ateliermob seria conseguir encontrar um instrumento que nos permitisse, em tempo real,

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The Seven-Beer Snitch. The Simpsons.14 episdio Episode 14, 16 temporada Season 16 (3 abr. apr. 2005).

medir os custos das opes de projecto que vamos tomando. Porque cada vez mais a nossa prtica tem de ter uma leitura global, incluindo as questes econmicas. AVM: Deve o arquitecto impedir um cliente de fazer um projecto que no tenha capacidade financeira para executar? O controlo de custos deve ser uma questo tica para o arquitecto? Acredito que temos uma funo social objectiva que deve ser interclassista. Durante vrios perodos histricos, os arquitectos afastaram-se, sobretudo quando h dinheiro fcil, de cumprir essa funo. Neste momento no h investimento. No haver dinheiro outra histria. Como dizia um bancrio meu amigo: Isso de no haver dinheiro... Esto a guard-lo. O dinheiro no desapareceu! Voltando questo inicial de Manuel Graa Dias, posso dizer que tambm discordo completamente da ideia de haver arquitectos a mais. H tanto trabalho por fazer e tanta coisa por desenhar. No acho (e nunca achei) que a Licenciatura em Arquitectura tivesse, por si, que significar um estatuto. No sei porque que no h um treinador de futebol arquitecto! H uma questo de espacialidade no futebol; uma questo de tctica. AVM: Aumentar o campo dos actos prprios da profisso vai permitir-nos sobreviver mais tempo, profissionalmente? arquitectura est inerente uma abordagem intelectual de um conjunto de problemas. uma prtica intelectual que pode derivar numa lgica de atelier, num trabalho na administrao pblica, na poltica, na escola, etc... As escolas e falo em geral, provavelmente com alguma injustia preparam os estudantes de Arquitectura para o trabalho em atelier e, sobretudo, para o arquitecto enquanto profissional independente. Mais uma vez, transpira-se a ideia do arquitecto-autor, formado para assinar projectos. E o mais irritante a ideia de que, se no se segue esse caminho, porque se est a falhar na vida profissional. Tem de se desvalorizar essa coisa da autoria. AVM: A crise acabou (ou vai acabar) com a arquitectura de autor? Mas, no ser arquitecto-autor no devia ser sinnimo de fracasso. Acho que a arquitectura de autor vai sempre existir. Ao longo da histria nunca deixou de existir. AVM: No atravs do exerccio da arquitectura de autor que se avana? No acho que seja assim que se avana. Eventualmente, num ou noutro campo disciplinar mas no em termos de qualidade geral da paisagem construda, ou em termos da melhoria das condies de vida das pessoas. AVM: Se dermos um exemplo portugus: as Operaes SAAL. Est cheio de arquitectura de autor. Acha que a qualidade de vida daquelas populaes no melhorou? uma arquitectura com arquitectos. Arquitectos que se disponibilizavam para ir para os locais trabalhar com as comunidades, mas no a vejo como uma arquitectura de autor no sentido em que impunham a sua marca, o seu desenho, secundarizando as relaes com o lugar, o programa, os usos... MGD: Estar aqui a usar a ideia de arquitectura de autor, mais no sentido de uma arquitectura de marca? H sempre uma autoria. H sempre uma marca. Mas quando falo em arquitectura de autor reporto-me aos processos em que se valoriza quem projecta em detrimento de quem usa ou usava. Nesse perspectiva, acho que nos SAAL as arquitecturas de autor se desvaneceram. AVM: Christopher Alexander achava, a dada altura, que todos os arquitectos seriam homens bons porque colocam o bem pblico frente de outros interesses. Trata-se de uma viso muito idealista que reduz a arquitectura ideia de que s poder ser, exclusivamente, obra pblica. O compromisso com o controlo oramental, com a poupana energtica, tudo isso, no altera o quadro da tica do arquitecto?

AVM: Should the architect stop a client carrying out a project for which he doesnt have the financial capacity? Should cost control be an ethical issue for the architect? I believe we have an objective social function that should serve all. It should be inter-classist. In a number of periods in history, architects distanced themselves, especially when easy money lured them away, from fulfilling that role. At the moment there is no investment. That there is no money, well that is something different. As a banker friend of mine said: This talk of there being no money Its that theyre hoarding it. The money hasnt disappeared! Going back to the initial introduction [by Manuel Graa Dias], I can say that I also completely disagree with the idea that there are too many architects. There is so much work to be done and so much to be designed. I dont think (and have never thought) that a degree in architecture is in itself a status. I dont know why there are no football managers who are architects! There is an aspect of spatiality to football. There is the question of tactics. AVM: Will expanding the definition of the acts proper to the profession allow us to survive longer professionally? An intellectual approach to a set of problems is something that is inherent in architecture. It is an intellectual practice that may result from the architectural firm logic or work in public administration, in politics, in the school, etc The schools and I am speaking in general terms, probably somewhat unjustly prepare students of architecture for work in architectural firms and, above all, for work as a freelance architect. Once more the idea of the auteur architect who is trained to add his name to design projects transpires. And the most irritating part is that if you dont follow that path youre a failure in professional terms. This auteur thing needs to be taken down a peg or two. AVM: Has the crisis put an end (or will it put an end) to auteur architecture? Not being an auteur architect should not be equated with failure. I think there will always be auteur architecture. It has always existed throughout history. AVM: But auteur architecture is not the way ahead? I dont think its the way ahead. Perhaps in one disciplinary field or another, but not in terms of the general quality of the built landscape. In terms of improving the living conditions for people it is not in times like these that we will make headway with that. AVM: If we take a Portuguese example: the SAAL* operations. They were full of auteur architecture. Do you not think the quality of life of those resident groups improved? It is architecture involving architects. Architects who were prepared to go to the sites and work with the communities. But I dont see it as auteur architecture in the sense that they imposed their mark, their design, relegating the relationship with the place, the programme, the uses to second place MGD: Are you using the term auteur architecture more in the sense of branded architecture? There is always an auteur. There is always a brand. But when I speak of auteur architecture I refer to the processes in which the person who designs it is valued to the detriment of those who use or would use the design. In this sense, I think that any auteur architecture that was there was absorbed into the SAAL process. AVM: Christopher Alexander thought at one point that all architects were good men because they put the public good be-

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fore other interests. This is a very idealistic view that reduces architecture to the idea that it can only be, exclusively, public works. Commitment to budget control, energy savings do all these things not alter the architects ethical framework? At this particular moment in time there is no particular desire to discuss questions of an ethical order Im not even sure that desire has been there in other similar moments in history. At the moment I like more the idea of placing ourselves in the service of the people. Being able to serve as an instrument for improving their living conditions. As architects, our knowledge is different to that of the majority of citizens; it serves for a certain set of things that are indeed of fundamental importance to peoples lives: the house, the space people live and work in. We are fundamentally important. We have a discipline that allows us to improve the living conditions of both the rich and the poor. Our approach to social questions is also determined by an objective condition that we experience. I dont think it results from a particular ethical conscience that we have because I am also conscious of the fact that if we recall what we have just talked about this new agenda could be used for the greatest barbarities. It is not the subject matter or the agenda that in itself defines universal ethics. MGD: Nor quality. Nor quality. It is important to understand that if we argue that today there is a particular propensity for an ethical approach we would be making accusations against our past. Ethics is an individual thing (or collective thing, when talking about groups of architects). It does not have periods. Im more concerned with matters of the processing of the practice. In that sense, the social question can be a very interesting one, especially if it brings new ways of doing things. AVM: The way in which an architect approaches a community, analyses its building systems, etc are you saying that a correct process is, at the outset, a guarantee for a good result or a better final design? Is that what remains for the architect? No, but a good process is the best contribution we can offer as professionals. The final result of a design project depends on a set of factors that are often not under our control. It is often the case that the best projects are hindered by a bad contractor, a bad client, an accident. We have to do our best work as far as our own input is concerned and also in everything we can do to make sure the outcome is always the best possible one. The assessment of that outcome should be done by the community or by the users and not through some declaration or the awarding of prizes by our peers. AVM: What is the current outlook for finding work in todays market? Up until the late 1990s most Portuguese architects used the classic method for establishing their firms: public competitions. At the moment I cant say whether or not that type of commission will end, but I think its on standby. (We are all to some extent or other waiting to see what will happen in the coming months and, probably, years). Public commissions will shrink, but the new media will make it easy to do work outside Portugal. At the moment, for a firm like ours, the first option for finding work is to take part in competitions outside Portugal. Because even if you win a competition in Portugal, there is still uncertainty as to whether the project will go ahead. On top of that, Portugal has the most nonsensical competition system I have ever had to work with, with requirements that are uncalled for and regulations that are getting worse and worse. In competitions the design itself is an ever-decreasing part of the assessment.

Neste momento, em particular, no h uma especial apetncia para discutir questes de ordem tica nem sei se ter havido noutros momentos histricos semelhantes. Neste momento, gosto mais da ideia de nos colocarmos ao servio das pessoas. Conseguir servir de instrumento para melhorar as suas condies de vida. Enquanto arquitectos temos um conhecimento diferente da maioria dos cidados, que serve para um determinado conjunto de coisas que, por sinal, so fundamentais na vida das pessoas: a casa, o espao onde se vive ou onde se trabalha. Somos fundamentais. Temos uma disciplina que nos permite melhorar as condies de vida, seja dos mais ricos seja dos mais pobres. Essa aproximao s questes de ordem social , tambm ela, determinada por uma condio objectiva que vivemos. No penso que resulte de uma especial conscincia tica, porque tambm tenho a noo recordando o que dizamos ainda h pouco de que esta nova agenda poder vir a ser utilizada para as maiores barbaridades. No a temtica ou a agenda que, por si, define a tica universal.

Temo Tambm que esTejamos a criar as condies para uma Tomada populisTa do poder. o senTimenTo anTi-polTicos exTremamenTe perigoso e vivemos um clima Tenso
MGD: Nem a qualidade. Nem a qualidade. importante perceber-se que se dissssemos que actualmente h uma especial apetncia para a tica, estaramos a acusar o nosso passado. A tica individual (ou colectiva, no sentido dos grupos de arquitectos). No tem pocas. Estou mais preocupado com as questes de processo da prtica, nesse aspecto a questo do social pode ser muito interessante, sobretudo se trouxer novas formas de fazer. AVM: O modo como um arquitecto aborda uma comunidade, analisa os seus sistemas construtivos, etc est a dizer que um processo correcto , partida, garantia de um bom resultado ou de um projecto final melhor? o que resta ao arquitecto? No, mas um bom processo o melhor contributo que podemos oferecer, enquanto profissionais. O resultado final do que se projecta depende de um conjunto de coisas que muitas vezes no esto nas nossa mos. Muitas vezes, os melhores projectos so embargados por um mau empreiteiro, um mau cliente, um acidente. Importa trabalhar melhor no que depende de ns e em tudo o que podemos apurar para que o resultado seja, sempre, o melhor possvel. E a avaliao deve ser feita pela comunidade ou por quem utiliza, e no em jeito de declarao ou premiao pelos nossos pares. AVM: Que perspectivas h na angariao actual de trabalho? Os ateliers portugueses, at ao final dos anos 1990, tinham uma forma clssica de se iniciar: os concursos pblicos. Neste momento, no consigo dizer se este gnero de encomenda ir acabar, mas acho que est em stand by. (Estamos todos um pouco espera do que vai acontecer nestes prximos meses, provavelmente, anos.) A encomenda pblica diminuir, mas os novos meios de comunicao fazem com que seja mais fcil trabalhar para fora. Neste momento, para um atelier como o nosso, a primeira opo para angariar trabalho participar em concursos fora. Em Portugal, ainda que se ganhe um concurso, h sempre a incerteza sobre a

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concretizao do projecto. Ainda que o nosso Pas tenha a formulao de concursos mais disparatada com que pude trabalhar, com exigncias descabidas e com regulamentao cada vez pior. Nos concursos, o projecto cada vez menos avaliado. AVM: Dada a situao do Pas, estaremos beira de uma nova revoluo? Se fosse no sentido da melhoria das condies de vida das pessoas, isso seria excelente. Contudo, neste momento, o que sinto que estamos a viver uma lenta ruptura sobre o que consideramos direitos bsicos de um estado democrtico. A sade, a escola, os direitos sociais, parece estar tudo em causa para que se pague aos especuladores. Acresce que temo que tambm estejamos a criar as condies para uma tomada populista do poder. O sentimento anti-polticos extremamente perigoso e vivemos um clima tenso, em que existe, a cada acto eleitoral, uma absteno preocupante. Definitivamente, penso que estamos a viver um perodo de ruptura, que pode ser num ou noutro sentido. No nosso atelier, sendo que sempre vivemos com baixos recursos e a fazer projectos de oramentos limitados, sentimo-nos especialmente preparados para enfrentar uma ruptura que se centre na melhoria das condies de vida das pessoas em geral. A questo futura no ser a ausncia de trabalho, mas como pag-lo. AVM: Pode haver trabalho sem haver dinheiro? A nossa estratgia segue duas vias. Em primeiro lugar, nos processos correntes de reabilitao privada aqueles em que gente de poucos recursos procura melhorar as suas casas , comemos a propor ao promotor formas de financiamento da interveno. A nossa experincia permite-nos maior facilidade em perceber os procedimentos das candidaturas e como se movimentam esses fundos. O promotor deve perceber que tambm vamos a jogo. Somos pagos pelos nosso trabalho enquanto arquitectos, mas nas diferentes etapas, servimos para resolver problemas. Em segundo lugar, desenvolvendo parcerias e privilegiando a troca de servios que sejam teis s diferentes partes. H algum tempo que defendemos que, por exemplo, tendo a Cmara Municipal de Lisboa um patrimnio imobilirio to vasto dentro da cidade podia alug-lo a um preo simblico a escritrios de arquitectura ou a arquitectos que se quisessem associar. O pagamento desses arquitectos podia ser feito atravs da prestao de xis horas de servios de arquitectura a cidados carenciados, que a CML indicasse. Seria uma forma interessante de pr de p a ideia de servios mnimos de arquitectura. AVM: Em Portugal, a arquitectura baseou-se, tradicionalmente, sempre num modelo de investimento pblico. Nos EUA a lgica dos mecenatos e dos privados. Temos, em Lisboa, dois exemplos (rarssimos), a Fundao Calouste Gulbenkian e a Fundao Champalimaud, edifcios que tm ambio arquitectnica, que tm qualidade e que resultam dos investimentos exclusivamente privados; tudo o que resta, em obra de vulto, obra pblica. Acha que vai deixar de ser? No, neste momento, estamos a pagar uma dvida impagvel. Os juros da dvida fazem-nos gastar sete mil milhes de euros por ano, equivalente soma de todos os salrios da administrao pblica. Isto, como bvio, faz com que no haja dinheiro para mais nada. Existe um processo agressivo de especulao sobre Portugal. As empresas de transportes do prejuzos brutais porque contratualizaram emprstimos a taxas de juro superiores a dez por cento. No sei como que isto ir acabar. O que se sabe que no uma poltica monoltica de austeridade, sem crescimento, que resolve o problema. Parece-me que, em vez de se continuar a destruir o aparelho produtivo ou a empurrar os jovens licenciados para a emigrao, devamos comear a aproveitar um pouco mais os nossos recursos naturais, humanos e intelectuais. AVM: Mas Portugal est integrado na Unio Europeia e no pode tomar atitudes radicais como no pagar O discurso no pagamos no corre o risco de ser demaggico?

AVM: Given the situation the country is in, are we close to a new revolution? If it were to improve the living conditions of the people, that would be excellent. However, what I feel at the moment is that we are experiencing a gradual rupture as far as what we consider the basic rights of a democratic state are concerned. Health, education, social rights everything seems to be questioned so that the speculators can be paid. I would go as far as to fear that we are creating the conditions for a populist usurpation of power. The anti-politician sentiment is extremely dangerous and we are living in a very tense climate in which abstention has reached worrying levels. I definitely think that we are experiencing a period of rupture, which may go one way or another. In our firm, given that we always work with few resources and are used to designing on limited budgets, we feel particularly well prepared to deal with a rift that focuses on improving the living conditions of the people in general. The question in the future will not be the lack of work, but how to pay it. AVM: Can there be work without there being money? Our strategy follows two paths. Firstly, in everyday private renovation processes where people with limited resources seek to improve their homes we have begun making proposals for financing of the intervention to the client. Our experience makes it easier for us to understand the procedures behind the work proposals and how the funds are moved. It must be made clear to the client that we can play the game too. We are paid for our work as architects but in the different phases of the project we can help them resolve problems. Secondly, by developing partnerships and favouring the exchange of services that are of use to the parties involved. For example, a while back we tabled a proposal to Lisbon City Council, as the owner of vast real estate assets in the city, that it could rent out space at a symbolic price to architecture firms or freelance architects wishing to be involved. The architects could pay by means of the provision of a certain number of hours of service to needy citizens chosen by the council. That would be an interesting way of implementing the idea of minimum architectural services. MGD: In Portugal architecture has traditionally been based on a public investment model. The United States takes a different approach, one based on patrons, the private sector. Portugal has two (very rare) examples of that, the Calouste Gulbenkian Foundation and the Champalimaud Foundations, buildings with architectural ambition, that have quality and are the result of exclusively private investment: all the rest, as far as large-scale work is concerned, is public. Do you think that will end? No, at this moment in time we are paying an unpayable debt. The interest on that debt means we have to pay seven billion euros a year, the equivalent of the sum of all civil service salaries. This obviously means that there is no money for anything else. Portugal is the object ongoing aggressive speculation. The transportation companies are making huge losses because they contracted loans at interest rates above 10per cent. I dont know how this is going to end. What we do know is that a monolithic austerity programme without growth will not solve the problem. It seems to me that instead of continuing to destroy the productive system or pushing young graduates into emigration we should be starting to make better use of our resources natural, human and intellectual. AVM: But Portugal is part of the European Union and it cannot adopt radical attitudes like that Does the were not paying discourse not risk being demagogic? Either there is a European response, for which the austerity packages we implement are of very little interest (and for

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which I dont think we have the political conditions), or we can only begin resolving our problem if we have protectionist policies, outside the euro. A few months ago the ideal solution would have been for us to leave the euro with the same debt as we joined it (a negotiated exit, which is what was already on the table for Greece). Now, with the possible scenario of the euro itself disappearing, the situation is much more complex. Portugal joining the euro was the strategic error of a wouldbe nouveau riche. For many years we had this idyllic image of Europe. We neglected our relations with other Portuguesespeaking countries. We never understood that we should have strengthened those relations, establishing new symbiotic, bilateral agreements. At the moment it is not easy for a Portuguese architect to work in Brazil or open up a firm in Angola. If there had been some strategic vision these are things that would have been resolved years ago without neo-colonialism, without haughtiness. We would have helped them more and vice-versa. We didnt; the train left the station without us. Now we are dependent upon European financial centres. They are the ones who say whether or not we will stay in the euro; how much we have to suffer under the cloak of a so-called bail out. Returning to the question of architecture: in Portugal the State will continue to be the main driving force behind land use planning. It wouldnt be a good idea to let private interests take over that position. AVM: Does the State protect the interests of architecture more than the private sector? Its not a question of the corporations, the architects or architecture. The State has to have an idea for the territory, one that is decided upon democratically. We are the State, not the others. It is true that for years we have, for a wide range of reasons, allowed the private sector to build as they liked, with suspensions of planning and zoning regulations, PINs [Projects of National Interest], etc But the most interesting periods for land use planning were always when there were State policies and ideas. Today, one thing that I think is fundamentally important is that we think in terms of a concerted demolition programme to correct what was done wrong over the last few decades. These demolitions can only come from the State (central, local or regional government, it doesnt matter as long as there is political determination). A lot of the fat that I identify as State fat is probably based on the inefficiency and unsustainability of the way in which our territory has been built. AVM: In times of crisis, the word of order is demolition? Is that not counterproductive? Distinguishing what is a village from a city, concentrating what should be concentrated, demolishing (or converting) many road structures so that we can strengthen others or end the pulverisation of the networks. Thats why I say theres a lot to be designed. Ill give you an example. Two years ago there was a truck driver protest because of increased petrol prices. Certain produce disappeared from the supermarkets very quickly. It was a silent protest, no one saw anything. But, within two or three days, the country was already under siege. How? The truck drivers were blocking the roads around the central supply markets in Matosinhos and Carregado. Foodstuffs were missing from the supermarket shelves. There was no petrol at the petrol stations. The country was under control. This shows a distribution and land use planning system that is absurdly dependent on the motorways, without alternative. Moreover, the fact that shops in the Alentejo were the first spaces to have empty shelves shows that the production system we have is absolutely dependent on the large supermarket chains. It is the result of years of bad planning.

Ou h uma resposta europeia, para a qual interessa muito pouco a austeridade que faamos (e para a qual no me parece haver condies polticas) ou s podemos comear a resolver o nosso problema se tivermos polticas proteccionistas, fora do Euro. H uns meses, a soluo ideal seria sairmos do Euro com a dvida com que entrmos (uma sada negociada que o que j esteve em cima da mesa para a Grcia). Neste momento, com o cenrio do desaparecimento do Euro a coisa muito mais complexa. A entrada de Portugal no Euro foi um erro estratgico de aspirante a novo rico. Durante muitos anos vingou uma imagem edlica da Europa. Desprezmos as nossas relaes com os pases lusfonos. Nunca percebemos que devamos ter fortalecido essas relaes estabelecendo acordos bilaterais simbiticos. Neste momento, para um arquitecto portugus, difcil trabalhar no Brasil ou abrir um escritrio em Angola. Se tivesse havido alguma viso estratgica isso estaria resolvido h muitos anos, sem neocolonialismos, sem sobrancerias. Teramos ajudado mais e vice-versa. No o fizemos e perdemos o comboio. Agora, estamos dependentes dos centros financeiros europeus. So eles que dizem se ficamos ou no no Euro, se temos de sofrer mais ou menos sob a capa de uma pretensa ajuda. Retomando a questo da pergunta anterior. Em Portugal, o Estado vai continuar a ser sempre o principal motor do planeamento e ordenamento do territrio. No bom que sejam os privados a assumir essa posio. AVM: O Estado protege mais os interesses da arquitectura que os privados? No uma questo corporativa, dos arquitectos ou da arquitectura. O Estado tem de ter uma ideia para o territrio, decidida democraticamente. O Estado no so os outros, somos ns. certo que durante muitos anos permitimos, com os mais diversos pretextos, que os privados construssem como bem entendessem, com suspenses de instrumentos de ordenamento do territrio, PINs, etc... Ao invs, os perodos mais interessantes para o ordenamento do territrio, sempre foram quando havia polticas de Estado, ideias. Hoje, uma das coisas que me parece fundamental pensar-se num processo concertado de demolies para corrigir o que foi mal feito nas ltimas dcadas. Essas demolies s podem ser aces que partam do Estado (central, local, regional, o que seja, mas com uma determinao poltica). Muitas das gorduras que identifico como as gorduras do Estado, podem ter na base a ineficincia e insustentabilidade da forma como o nosso territrio foi sendo construdo. AVM: Em tempo de crise, a palavra de ordem demolir? No ser um contra-senso? Distinguir o que uma aldeia de uma cidade, concentrar o que para ser concentrado, demolir (ou reconverter) muitas estruturas virias para reforar outras ou acabar com a pulverizao das redes. por isso que digo que h muito por desenhar. Dou um exemplo. H dois anos, houve um protesto dos camionistas por causa do aumento do valor do combustvel. Era uma manifestao silenciosa, no se via. Mas, em dois ou trs dias, comeou a haver um cerco ao Pas. Como? Os camionistas estavam a bloquear as reas abastecedoras em Matosinhos e Carregado. Rapidamente desapareceram os produtos nos supermercados. Nas gasolineiras no havia combustvel. O Pas estava sob controlo. Isto demonstra um sistema de distribuio e ordenamento do territrio absurdamente dependente das auto-estradas e sem alternativas. Mais, o facto de terem sido os espaos comerciais do Alentejo onde primeiro se viram as prateleiras vazias, demonstra que o aparelho produtivo que temos depende absolutamente das grandes cadeias de distribuio. Tudo isto fruto de anos de mau planeamento. AVM : O momento de deslumbramento de novo-rico que vivemos quando aderimos Comunidade Europeia reverteu para Portugal em coisas muito visveis: auto-estradas, redes de infra-estruturas, centros desportivos e de sade, universidades Podemos falar de equipamentos mal dimensionados face ao futuro que no se suspeitava vir a ser dominado pela crise?

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Houve momentos em que tivemos estratgia, isto no foi sempre assim. No ps-1974, importava construir as redes, importava construir o saneamento; depois, tivemos os anos de 1980 em que fomos construindo os equipamentos pblicos; fazia-se a valorizao da cultura, do desporto, da identidade, da cidadania. A partir dos anos 1990, j com os fundos comunitrios, construiu-se em funo de interesses privados, das grandes construtoras ao bancos. A preocupao central era gastar e no planear ou projectar. AVM: Havia fundos comunitrios para se equipar o Pas e, quer queiramos quer no, os arquitectos foram beneficiados havia trabalho. No diria que os arquitectos foram beneficiados, foram arrastados. Actualmente, no h uma poltica de Estado para todo o territrio. urgente que os profissionais do territrio comecem a repens-la. MGD: Neste momento, a encomenda pblica reduziu-se drasticamente. O que que os arquitectos vo fazer? Quando refere essa questo de, provavelmente, o Pas comear a ter que demolir, os arquitectos no deveriam ser chamados a pensar novas utilidades para esses elefantes brancos? Mas quem e quando que se chamam os arquitectos? Ou sero os arquitectos a ter de se chegar frente? Quem que lhes paga para pensar? Os ateliers tm de se reconfigurar como mquinas de combate. Sempre houve mquinas de combate para angariar trabalho atravs de concursos mas, nos ltimos anos, em Portugal, os concursos ainda foram mais raros. Agora temos de conseguir perceber onde e como que nos vamos financiar pois, como procuro demonstrar, trabalho no faltar. Mas no tenho a receita.

AVM: That moment of nouveau riche bedazzlement we experienced when we joined the European Community translated into very visible things for Portugal: motorways, infrastructure networks, sports and health centres, universities Can one speak today of structures that were badly dimensioned for a future that no one imagined would come to be dominated by the crisis? There were times when he had a strategy; it wasnt always like this. After the revolution of 1974 we had to build networks, sanitation. Then came the 1980s and we started building public facilities, privileging culture, sports, identity and civicism. From the 1990s onwards, with Community funding, we built in line with private interests from the large construction companies to the banks. The main concern was spending and not planning or projecting. AVM: There was Community funding to give the country the infrastructure [it lacked] and, whether we like it or not, architects benefited from that they had work. I wouldnt say that architects benefited; they were dragged along. Currently there is no State policy for the territory. The planning professionals urgently need to start rethinking. MGD: In the current state of affairs, public commissions have gone down drastically. What will architects do? When you speak of the country probably having to start demolishing things, should architects not be called upon to think of new uses for these white elephants? But who does the calling and when will architects be called upon? Or will the architects have to step up? Who will pay them to think? Architectural firms have to reconfigure themselves as combat machines. There were always combat machines before for finding work through competitions, but in recent years in Portugal competitions have been fewer and farther between. Now we have to understand where and how we are going to finance ourselves, for as I have been trying to demonstrate, there will be no lack of work. But I dont have the recipe. MGD: Will the decision makers notice such actions if they are not highlighted in the media? Like most other architects, I think the State will continue to be the leading actor as far as commissions are concerned. A few days ago a journalist who was doing a story for a TV station on Parque Escolar called me. She wanted to talk to me. I told her that I was done talking about PE and that the station in question already had a statement from me. The journalist answered that he had already spoken to two or three architects who were very critical of the process they had been involved in but were unwilling to say so openly. In other words, they were afraid that this would hurt their standing in relation to the most important contract-awarding body in the country. AVM: There is a feeling that many architects are silenced the moment they receive a commission because public commissions make all the difference to the firms. A kind of survival instinct kicks in. The firms need the work, so the reaction is perfectly natural. In the Parque Escolar process, the ethical problem is not in who receives the commission. The problem is in the way the State awards commissions. It has happened that we have rejected work. A building that was to be renovated, where the work was suspended due to the developer having gutted the structure. Ethical questions were raised. Before we submitted our fee proposal we insisted on conditions for the renovation, which were not accepted. Another colleague got the job. But such a decision isnt easy. When we make options that affect an architectural firm, there is a bunch of people who depend on those decisions. Our decisions can affect the lives

no diabolizo o arquiTecTo que aceiTa um projecTo pblico que lhe oferecido. acho que no Tem de ser o arquiTecTo o cenTro da crTica

MGD: Quem tem poder de deciso vai reparar nessas aces se elas no forem muito mediatizadas? Tal como a maioria dos arquitectos, penso que o principal actor da encomenda vai continuar a ser o Estado. H uns dias telefonou-me uma jornalista que estava a fazer uma reportagem para um canal de televiso sobre a Parque Escolar [PE]. Queria falar comigo. Eu respondi-lhe que sobre a PE j estava farto de falar e que o canal em causa j tinha recolhido as minhas declaraes. Ao que a jornalista retorquiu que j tinha falado com dois ou trs arquitectos, muito crticos do processo em que haviam participado, mas que no estavam disponveis para dar a cara. Ou seja, tinham receio que isso afectasse a sua imagem perante a principal entidade adjudicante do Pas. AVM: H a sensao de que muitos arquitectos ficam silenciados a partir do momento em que recebem um trabalho porque a encomenda pblica faz toda a diferena nos escritrios. H uma espcie de instinto de sobrevivncia. Os ateliers precisam de ter trabalho e essa reaco perfeitamente natural. No processo da PE, o problema tico no est em quem recebe a encomenda. O problema est na forma como o Estado encomenda. J nos aconteceu rejeitar um trabalho. Um edifcio a reabilitar que se encontrava embargado pelo facto de o promotor ter esventrado a sua estrutura. Levantava-se um

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of the people who work with us, and their families. In this sense I dont demonise any architect who accepts a public commission he is offered. I think the architect doesnt have to be the centre of criticism. AVM: Even in a time of crisis there are no limits? In recent years we have had brutal legislative changes, the consequences of which have still to be analysed. With the number of laws being passed, the country has become a legal chaos. Construction and planning have become a legal chaos. The other day I was given the bill on urban regeneration that is currently being discussed in parliament, just to understand who three renovation projects we are currently doing would fit in with that. I was unable to come to a conclusion. There are many laws, many limits and when you cross them all, theres little left. AVM: Everything seems to take place without the architects opinion. My question: is it not up to the architect to intervene and change the status quo? Yes, but he also has to work with what there is. Today I spent all morning dealing with a Detailed Plan, the area of which is crossed by a line of the REN [National Ecological Reserve], which protects nothing. The line is the result of a macro-scale map; it runs through the area, resulting in a new alignment to the Plan. In reality, in the terrain, the line does not exist. Our work was to try to ensure that the REN alignment did not affect the design of the Plan. The design can have to do with exposure to the sun, prevailing wins, north or south Those are the things that should determine a design, not a twisted line resulting from a map being blown up. What I should probably say is: this is nonsense and were going to change the REN limits. But that would mean that the plan would be postponed for the people who live there for many years MGD: only after five years. the plan would be put on hold awaiting a decision from the regional and central administration. Even if the problem was recognised and a solution articulated, how long would it take? And would the next round of political musical chairs not lead to a reversal of the decision? In this case, part of our work is to avoid that the meandering REN line has an effect on the plan design. MGD: Ana Vaz Milheiro is more concerned with the fact that we dont have a more expressive intervening role. But I do not practise a negative or complacent discourse. We have to base ourselves in reality. AVM: Another question: in a crisis scenario is the work of the architect more appreciated or is it neutralised? It is much more depreciated, but we have much more to do. MGD: Why is it more depreciated? It is much more depreciated because there is the widespread notion that architectural work may not be necessary. The idea that architecture is a luxury is deeply rooted in our culture. But I think we are much more needed. Because we have an intellectual discipline that allows us to try and pragmatically resolve problems, working with their conditioning factors and constraints. The crisis is giving us new layers of information about what our work should and, in that sense, we will be much more needed. It is also up to us to improve our value. I think the times are of architecture of resistance, as a discipline. AVM: But what is architecture of resistance? Resistance is an act of survival. Resisting to exist. Architec-

problema de carcter tico. Ainda antes de apresentarmos uma proposta de honorrios impusemos condies para a sua reabilitao que no foram aceites. Outro colega ficou com o trabalho. Mas esta deciso no fcil. Quando tomamos opes, num atelier de arquitectura, h um conjunto de pessoas que dependem dessas decises porque a nossa deciso pode implicar com a vida das pessoas que trabalham connosco, e a das suas famlias. neste sentido que no diabolizo o arquitecto que aceita um projecto pblico que lhe oferecido. Acho que no tem de ser o arquitecto o centro da crtica. AVM: Mesmo em momento de crise, no h limites? Nos ltimos anos tivemos alteraes legislativas brutais, cujas consequncias ainda esto por diagnosticar. Com a quantidade de diplomas que foram saindo, transformou-se o Pas, a construo e o planeamento num embrulho jurdico. No outro dia analisei o diploma sobre reabilitao urbana que est na Assembleia da Repblica para discusso, para perceber como seriam enquadrveis trs projectos de reabilitao que estamos a fazer. No consegui tirar concluses. H muitas leis, muitos limites, mas, cruzando tudo, pouco sobra. AVM: Aparentemente, tudo se passa margem da opinio do arquitecto. Pergunto: no cabe ao arquitecto intervir e alterar o status quo? Sim, mas tambm tem de trabalhar com o que existe. Hoje passei a manh volta de um plano de pormenor, cuja rea atravessada por uma linha de REN [Reserva Ecolgica Nacional] que nada protege. A linha resulta de uma cartografia a uma escala macro que passa por ali e d um novo alinhamento ao Plano. Na realidade, no territrio, esta linha no existe. O nosso trabalho foi tentar que o alinhamento da REN no fosse condicionar o desenho que deve depender da exposio solar, ventos dominantes, norte ou sul... Isso so as coisas que devem determinar um desenho, no uma linha torcida que decorre de uma ampliao cartogrfica. Provavelmente, deveria dizer: Isto um disparate e vamos alterar o limite da REN. Mas isso faria com que aquelas populaes vissem o Plano adiado por muitos anos que teria de esperar pela deciso das administraes centrais e regionais. E mesmo que se articulasse a soluo e reconhecessem o problema, quanto tempo demoraria? E ser que uma dana de cadeiras, no alteraria a deciso? Neste caso parte do nosso trabalho evitar que a linha da REN distorcida tenha reflexos no desenho do plano. MGD: A Ana Vaz Milheiro est preocupada por no termos um papel interventivo mais expressivo. No fao um discurso negativo nem acomodado. Temos de partir da realidade. AVM: Uma outra questo: em ambiente de crise, o trabalho do arquitecto valorizado ou, pelo contrrio, neutralizado? muito mais desvalorizado, mas temos muito mais para fazer. MGD: Desvalorizado porqu? muito mais desvalorizado porque h uma ideia generalizada de que o trabalho de arquitectura pode ser desnecessrio. Est culturalmente enraizado que a arquitectura um luxo. Ao invs, penso que somos muito mais necessrios. Porque temos uma disciplina intelectual que nos permite, de uma forma pragmtica, tentar resolver problemas mediante as suas condicionantes e constrangimentos. A crise est a dar-nos novos layers de informao sobre o que que temos de trabalhar e, nesse sentido, vamos ser muito mais necessrios. Tambm nos competir valorizar-nos. Acho que o tempo de uma arquitectura de resistncia, enquanto disciplina. AVM: O que uma arquitectura de resistncia? A resistncia uma aco de sobrevivncia. Resistir para existir. A arquitectura, mais

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do que nunca, no pode baixar os braos nem deixar-se ir. Os arquitectos tm de perceber onde que devem estar e se devem inscrever. Em Portugal, a prtica demonstra que nunca fomos bem sucedidos quando nos colocmos, subservientemente, ao lado do poder espera de migalhas. Dou um exemplo. Sempre que na associao profissional houve uma direco mais prxima do poder vigente, isso no significou que houvesse uma maior ateno aos problemas da arquitectura ou ao ordenamento do territrio. As vantagens desta proximidade, s se traduziram em migalhas. Vivemos numa poca de enormes tenses e precisamos de perceber onde nos vamos inscrever, para quem vamos trabalhar, quem sero os nossos clientes. Utilizando o exemplo de h pouco sobre a reconfigurao de um elefante branco: uma piscina que j no usada. Imagine-se que, aproveitando a pendente do seu fundo se podia transformar num anfiteatro para as assembleias de freguesia. O processo podia ser desencadeado pela populao e no pelo governo local. Podia constituir-se num movimento e, facilmente, divulg-lo nas redes sociais. O poder dos novos media tremendo. Alis, estes novos media tambm devem ser um instrumento para a nossa prtica. O blogue do nosso atelier [www.ateliermob.com] foi uma atitude de resistncia ou, talvez, de existncia. Quando constitumos o atelier j tnhamos vrios trabalhos realizados, mas no tnhamos como mostr-los. E como no tnhamos capacidade para fazer um site, fizemos um blogue.

a ideia do que vai aconTecer depois da escola, o esTgio, o ps-esTgio... afecTa a aprendizagem. na relao professor-aluno passa a haver um Terceiro elemenTo: o medo do fuTuro

ture, more than ever before, cannot lower our arms, nor let ourselves go. Architects have to understand where they should be. Where they should stand. In Portugal, the practice shows that we were never very successful when we subserviently stood at the side of the powers that be waiting for crumbs to fall off the table. Ill give you an example. Whenever, in the professional association, there has been a management that has been closer to those in power, this has never meant that there was more attention paid to the problems of architecture our land use planning. The benefits of that proximity were nothing but crumbs. We are living in times of great tension and we need to understand were our place is, who we will be working for, who are clients are going to be. Going back to the example I gave earlier, about reconfiguring a white elephant, such as a swimming pool that is no longer in use: imagine that we used its inclined bottom to transform it into an amphitheatre for parish council meetings. The process could be set in motion by the population and not by the local government. It could become a movement and be easily disseminated through the social networks. The power of the new media is tremendous. Indeed, the new media should be an instrument for our practice. Our blog was an attitude of resistance or, perhaps, existence. When we set up the firm we had already executed several works together, but we didnt have a way to show that. As we didnt have the capacity to make a site ourselves, we started a blog. It was only when we started receiving e-mails asking us to disseminate the work of other firms that we began to understand the potential. We also began to understand that by writing in English we were increasing the reader spectrum considerably; that changed the blog changed in terms of scale. And we changed to. To the point that now, when we send out a press release for a new project, 90per cent of the publication requests come from outside Portugal; or when we announce in one of the social networks we are present on that we will be holding a conference in Rome, that triggers a whole series of meetings and talks. The social networks are a vanishing point and a meeting point. AVM: So will the future include, in some form or other, encouraging social movements like the one you depicted in the swimming pool example, and getting the populations to influence the powers that be? Will the future work of the architect include more direct creation of awareness amongst the masses? I think so. A while back we began, through personal interest particularly on the part of Andreia [Salavessa], thinking about organising workshops for children. The idea was to think about the city from the perspective of educating citizens to have an opinion about the problems of their cities. We began this in the context of the Todos Festival, at the invitation of Largo Residncias, a communal residence for artists in Largo do Intendente [Lisbon], and in the scope of an exhibition of models with diverse proposals for Martim Moniz [a square in Lisbon]. The exhibition was called Dreams in Works and was curated by Patrcia Pedrosa. Proceeding from a visit to the exhibition, which was initiated with an animated introduction to the history of Martim Moniz and the city by Madalena Marques, the plasticity of the models and the imagination projected by each of the children onto the different models were highlighted (they were not told what each thing represented; all was left to their imagination). Based on their visit, each child had to think about and draw what he or she would like to see done in Largo do Intendente and then make a model of their idea, their dream. Fantastic things came out of that. In that area of Lisbon we

S quando comemos a receber e-mails com pedidos de divulgao de outros ateliers que nos comemos a aperceber do seu potencial. Por outro lado, tambm comemos a perceber que, escrevendo em ingls, aumentvamos consideravelmente o espectro de leitores. O blogue mudou de escala e ns tambm. Ao ponto de, actualmente, quando enviamos um comunicado de imprensa com um novo trabalho, 90 por cento dos pedidos de publicao venham de fora de Portugal ou quando colocamos nalguma das redes sociais em que estamos que faremos uma conferncia em Roma, logo se desencadeia uma srie de encontros e conversas. As redes sociais so um ponto de fuga e de encontro. AVM: O futuro, de alguma forma, passar por incentivar movimentos sociais como o que descreveu no caso da piscina, e forar a que sejam as populaes a contagiar o poder? O trabalho do arquitecto do futuro poderia passar por a, por uma sensibilizao mais directa das massas? Penso que sim. H uns tempos comemos, por interesse pessoal e sobretudo de Andreia [Salavessa], a pensar organizar workshops para crianas. A ideia era pensar a cidade na ptica de formar cidados que tenham opinio sobre os problemas das suas cidades. Comemos no mbito do Festival Todos, a convite do Largo Residncias uma residncia de artistas que existe no Largo do Intendente [Lisboa] e em torno de uma exposio de maquetas com vrias propostas para o Martim Moniz. A exposio chamava-se Sonhos em obras e era comissariada por Patrcia Pedrosa.

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had the advantage of bringing in the schools, involving people from all social classes. This work with children is often the best way of getting to the families. This is one of the concrete social fields in which there is much to be done and where we think that ateliermob has something to contribute. MGD: Those are not solutions applicable to all. What can the new architects leaving our schools do apart from emigrating, which would be the classic response? One thing that has to be done is to subvert this idea that there is no future. I taught at the FAUTL [the Technical University of Lisbons School of Architecture] in 2008, roughly ten years after I graduated from there. Whereas, when I was a student, I felt a certain arrogance on our part we had been the best secondary school students in the country and the school was a concentration of people used to getting top grades in secondary school , when I returned to teach I sensed the students were in panic. During my student days, harsh criticism from a professor did not shake a students confidence. But the panic I sensed in 2008 was widespread and had a much greater effect on the teacher-student relationship. Thinking about what is going to happen after the school, the internship, postinternship has an effect on the learning process. A third element comes into the teacher-student relationship: fear of the future. When I was studying I never thought about that, because, like most of my fellow students, I was already working in an architecture firm. It is very important to subvert this fatalistic idea that has taken hold. The idea that there is no future. For better or for worse, there will be a future and we will go on, to quote a Jorge Palma song. We have to start building, bearing in mind that the future depends more on what we do in the present that what we did in the past. We have to fight against this idea of failure. When I compare when I was a student to the time I spent as a teacher, I dont remember students having breakdowns or cases of suicide. Today, breakdowns are common in the universities. This idea of failing, of not being up to it is really bad. For years we have been in a self-destructive process in terms of the relationship we have with the practice of the profession. Its time we rolled up our sleeves. Began resisting and building. Architecture has to open up spaces, has to stop focusing on the two or three developers who have commissions to give, the two or three State bodies that are building things. Young architects have to drop the idea that their degree will lead to social promotion and that their parents are giving them a future by paying for their courses. One and all they have to understand that they have to fight a lot to be able to build a decent future. |
* [T.N.]: The SAAL Operations were resident-participated housing projects in Portugal after the Revolution of 1974.

A partir de uma visita exposio, que era iniciada com uma animada introduo histrica ao Martim Moniz e Cidade por Madalena Marques, valorizava-se o carcter plstico e a imaginao projectada por cada uma das crianas nas diferentes maquetas (no se lhes dizia o que que cada coisa representava, era deixado sua imaginao). A partir da visita, cada um tinha de pensar e desenhar o que gostaria de ver no Largo do Intendente e, posteriormente, fazer uma maqueta da sua ideia, do seu sonho. Produziram-se coisas fantsticas. Naquela zona da cidade de Lisboa, tnhamos a vantagem de, ao trazer as escolas, ter gente de todas as classes sociais. Este trabalho, junto das crianas, , muitas vezes, a melhor forma de chegar s famlias. Este um dos terrenos sociais concretos em que est tudo por fazer e no qual pensamos que o Ateliermob pode dar um contributo. MGD: No so solues extensveis a todos. E o que que os novos arquitectos que vo saindo das escolas podero fazer, para alm de emigrar, que seria a resposta clssica? H uma coisa que se tem de subverter que esta ideia de que no h futuro. Dei aulas na FA/UTL em 2008, sensivelmente dez anos depois de l ter terminado o curso. Se, na altura em que fui aluno, sentia haver uma certa arrogncia da nossa parte tnhamos sido os melhores alunos do Pas e a Escola era uma concentrao de gente habituada a ter vintes e dezanoves no secundrio , quando regressei como professor senti os alunos em pnico. No meu tempo de aluno, uma crtica dura de um professor no abalava a confiana. Ao invs, o pnico que senti em 2008 era generalizado e afectava muito mais a relao professor-aluno. A ideia do que vai acontecer depois da escola, o estgio, o ps-estgio... afecta a aprendizagem. Na relao professor-aluno passa a haver um terceiro elemento: o medo do futuro. Quando andava na Escola no pensava nisso, at porque como a maioria dos meus colegas, j trabalhava num atelier. importantssimo subverter esta ideia fatalista que se instalou de que no h futuro. Para o melhor e para o pior, vai haver futuro, e a gente h-de continuar como canta o Jorge Palma. preciso comear a construir, tendo conscincia de que o futuro depende mais do que fazemos no presente do que do que fizemos no passado. Temos de combater a noo de falhano. Quando comparo o perodo em que fui aluno com o perodo em que fui professor, no me lembro de haver estudantes com esgotamentos ou casos de suicdio. Hoje, nas universidades, os esgotamentos so comuns. Esta ideia de falhar, de no se estar altura, pssima. H muitos anos que estamos num processo autodestrutivo na relao que temos com a prtica. preciso comearmos a pr as mos na massa. Comear a resistir e a construir. A arquitectura tem de abrir espaos, deixando de se centrar nos dois ou trs promotores que encomendam, nas duas ou trs entidades do Estado que vo construindo. Os arquitectos mais novos tm de deixar de pensar que, com o canudo, alcanam uma promoo social, e os pais que, pagando a universidade, lhes esto a dar um futuro. Uns e outros tm de perceber que tm muito que lutar para construir um futuro decente. |

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