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animix 11-13-2005, 06:47 AM

I've got 2 x HDSP 9652's and a Multiface PCI in one of my DAWs. I've been using it in a pretty
straightforward way and not using Totalmix for monitoring.....however, I'm trying to use my
Multiface analog I/O for inserting analog gear in a mix and for some reason, it suddenly doesn't
work. It was working........now it's not. I go into the Totalmix software matrix to look around and
I've never seen such a bunch of counterintuitive wierdness in my life. I know I've got my bussing
set up correctly in Cubase SX but now, for a reason I can't quite fathom, what was working before,
no longer works..........wait........did I already say that?????

Arrrrrrrggggghghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

Wireline 11-13-2005, 11:24 AM

I went thru that a week or two back, Doug (or should I say Peabody?) :D

Bill Park was very helpful in learning me up...seems TM can be described as a virtual big board, in
which one is to pull up or down sliders on the second row to actually monitor the inserts (in Samp
anyway - can't say about Cubase and the coveted auto latency insert feature)...

Boiled down to this: have one TM template set up for tracking (thus having the second row act as
cue sends, etc)...then have another TM template set up for editing/inserting external goodies....

Anyway, hope it helps. This is the thread (http://www.3daudioinc.com

/3db/showthread.php?t=6890)

animix 11-13-2005, 05:45 PM

I went thru that a week or two back, Doug (or should I say Peabody?) :D

Bill Park was very helpful in learning me up...seems TM can be described as a virtual big board, in
which one is to pull up or down sliders on the second row to actually monitor the inserts (in Samp
anyway - can't say about Cubase and the coveted auto latency insert feature)...

Boiled down to this: have one TM template set up for tracking (thus having the second row act as
cue sends, etc)...then have another TM template set up for editing/inserting external goodies....

Anyway, hope it helps. This is the thread (http://www.3daudioinc.com

/3db/showthread.php?t=6890)

Thanks Sherman :D

I will revisit that thread. Chances are though, when I boot my system later today, it will just work
and I won't know why......then I'll need to use it and I'll be paranoid about changing anything
because ........errrr.......I need to use it........so it will work and I won't know why.........because I
need to use it........wait.........did I already say that.......????

Regards,

Peabody

animix 11-13-2005, 10:07 PM

Thanks Sherman :D

I will revisit that thread. Chances are though, when I boot my system later today, it will just work
and I won't know why......then I'll need to use it and I'll be paranoid about changing anything
because ........errrr.......I need to use it........so it will work and I won't know why.........because I
need to use it........wait.........did I already say that.......????

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Regards,

Peabody

Well.......hmmmm.........I've got it working now. The new manual is quite a

bit more informative and I think I understand a few more things
now.........at least until I forget them again in the middle of some kind of
major crisis/clocking/patching meltdown scenario. If explained my
digital/analog routing matrix between the 3 DAWs I'm clocking and timeline
syncing simultaneously during mixdown, you would laugh out loud, so all I
will say is that I do have the basics of routing analog to analog and
digital to digital in Totalmix now. It's just like a
mixer.........DOH!!!!......imagine that.

;)

Wireline 11-13-2005, 11:19 PM

Glad you got it worked out....it can be intimidating, can't it?

animix 11-13-2005, 11:49 PM

Glad you got it worked out....it can be intimidating, can't it?

I bought a VSTi a while back called DKFH. It's a drum module, sort of along the lines of BFD. It
had the same kind of grid interface as Totalmix. One of the DVD's that came with it was corrupt
and this was my ticket to return it. When I started looking around the interface, I just didn't like it
at all and since on of the DVD's was defective, Musicians Friend gave me the option for a refund or
a swap for BFD. Since I thought I needed something like this at the time, I chose to go with the
swap. I never use BFD either because I track all my drums live, but I think it will be handy once
Drumagog (which I also thought I would use, but never do) can trigger BFD multilayered samples.

Anyway, when I got my first HDSP 9652 and saw this Totalmix routing matrix, I nearly sent it
back in exchange for a Lynx product, but they didn't have a combination at the time that quite
suited my overall needs ......so anyway.......

It never ends, does it?

:D

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11-03-2005, 02:23 PM #1

Join Date: May 2002

Wireline Location: Midland Tx
Titanium Club Member (4000+) Posts: 4,865

TotalMix Users...

I know some of you guys are reported wizards with the RME Totalmix...I, on
the other hand, have proven myself to be an idiot with it...I know its a
powerful tool, but just can't seem to get the hang of when to mute inputs,
setting up multiple cue mixes without latency, etc...

Samp 8.2 user here...I tried getting some guidance from the RME site, to no
avail, and have RTFM until I'm half blind...still unclear as to the three
levels, and how they interact with what it is I am hearing.

Bill, et al - any pointers, tips, etc? What works best for you? I HATE it when
there is a great tool, and I am a bit too backwards to figure out how to use
it properly....

Thanks for any information.

__________________
Ken Morgan
Wireline Studio
Midland, TX

11-03-2005, 07:53 PM #2

Join Date: Jan 2005

Dennis Jones Location: Spindale N.C. USA
Gold Club Member (1000+ posts) Posts: 1,694

Have you tried calling RME?George is one of the best at talking you through

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problems I've ere seen.Not a Samp user here;Nuendo3.1/2.3 and the Total
Mix feature is really nice with it.
__________________
Dennis Jones
Technical Director
WNCW-FM www.wncw.org
3D Audio V.I.P.

11-03-2005, 11:16 PM #3

Join Date: May 2002

Wireline Location: Midland Tx
Titanium Club Member (4000+) Posts: 4,865

How are you Dennis? I'll try calling them and see if they can shed some
light...

The two biggest issues I'm dealing with are 1) the duplication of mixers
(Samp and Totalmix screens....and have found out by repeated trial and
error how the 3 levels interact) and 2) as annoying as this is, what plays
back through the Totalmix sounds so much clearer, cleaner, deeper,
etc...than what's coming through the Samp engine....

Very disturbing.
__________________
Ken Morgan
Wireline Studio
Midland, TX

11-04-2005, 03:13 AM #4

Join Date: Jan 2005

Dennis Jones Location: Spindale N.C. USA
Gold Club Member (1000+ posts) Posts: 1,694

Took a week off from the Studio....worked on a Master job at home Got
my new truck pimped and went leaf viewing. Don't know Samp.I saw it once
on a guys DAW up in Boone.What RME card set-up are you using?I don't
really hear any thing different across my Multi-Face units.George is pretty
good at getting right to the problem.He must have seen it all.
__________________
Dennis Jones
Technical Director
WNCW-FM www.wncw.org
3D Audio V.I.P.

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11-04-2005, 03:30 AM #5

Join Date: Jul 2004

Bill@WelcomeHomeStudios Location: Pittsburgh
Gold Club Member (1000+ posts) Posts: 2,590

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wireline

How are you Dennis? I'll try calling them and see if they can shed
some light...

The two biggest issues I'm dealing with are 1) the duplication of
mixers (Samp and Totalmix screens....and have found out by
repeated trial and error how the 3 levels interact) and 2) as
annoying as this is, what plays back through the Totalmix sounds so
much clearer, cleaner, deeper, etc...than what's coming through the
Samp engine....

Very disturbing.

OKay, let's back up a bit.

How are you set up, what are you using, and what are you trying to do that
is so confusing? If I can understand how and what, maybe I can help.

3 levels?

And there should be no difference in sound. How can there be?

In my rig, the playback (to the studio monitors) level is calibrated and set,
and pretty much left alone... I use an attenuator for my own listening level,
and at a certain point on the scale, it means a certain thing in terms of
level.

But the TM allows me to quickly set up multiple mixes or routings. Have you
looked at the Matrix view yet? sometimes that helps to keep what is going
where in your mind.

You understand that you can set multiple levels for each output, so that
(say...) a single mic input can have 16, 18, 26 or 28 different levels
(Multiface, Digiface, Fireface? Different numbers of outputs. But basically it
is total number of channels, plus SPDIF; or total number of channels plus
SPDIF plus analog monitoring pair... whatever, it is a bunch) On each
channel you select the channel, the routing menu drops down, you click on
the output pair, and set your pan and level for each output choice. Rinse
and repeat for the next output choice, or move on to the next channel.

So in my rig, the output to the monitors from TM is constant, and the stereo
output level in Samp is constant, so the channel levels might change for a
mix, but I always know where I am at. The headphone mixes might change,
and these I handle from TM, as described above, for zero latency

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monitoring.

I don't really think much about either mixer, mixer being an analog
construct for dealing with something which can be handled differently in
software.... I'm usually setting levels in the Object View screen. (I use
Sequoia)

anyway, give me some more info, and maybe I can help.

Bill
__________________
Bill Park
Welcome Home Studios

3D VIP

"...they have a coconut phone. What could go wrong?..."

11-04-2005, 12:55 PM #6

Join Date: May 2002

Wireline Location: Midland Tx
Titanium Club Member (4000+) Posts: 4,865

Morning Bill...

Quote:

And there should be no difference in sound. How can there be?

This is what I'm trying to find out...haven't been back to the studio since
this occurred...will try null testing, re-doing the origin waves, see what's
up...I would hope the difference between the 32bit Samp mixer and the 40
bit Totalmix mixer isn't that noticable...

I went through last night and re -RTFM a few times, drew out some schemes
(I seem to work best when I use pencil and paper and draw it
out...whatever 'it' is...) and seem to have a slightly better
understanding...I'll know more when I get back to the studio.

Here's my rig, as best I can describe:

FF800:
Analog ins 1-4-external pres
Analog ins 5-8-returns from external gear
Analog 9 empty, analog 10 talkback mic
Analog outs - 1/2 to mains; 3/4 to patch cbles which can connect to a pair
of OSAs or whatever i want to use for final mix coloration; 5/6 unattached;
7/8 to a tracking room amp; analog 9/10 for cue mixes

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ADAT 1 ins - optical from Focusrite Octopre convertor card (yeah yeah..I
know...)
ADAT 1 outs - not connected
ADAT 2 ins - Tango24 with various sources (external boxes, guitar DIs, etc)
ADAT 2 outs-Tango 24 acting as a sending unit to various comps, EQs,
reverbs, whatever...

The TM is VERY complex - I think I've been using a limited ITB mindset and
applying it to the TM, which as you said can essentially give more routing
versitility than a 'regular' console....steep unlearning/relearning curve.

I just hope I can find a way that the TM will supplant the Samp mixer, work
at object level (preferred), and get the two platforms to actually interact
and work with each other instead of independantly...(IE - changing the
routing or automation from Samp will also change the routing/automations
inside TM...)

Still have no idea as to why there was such a noticable difference...perhaps

I didn't make a TM change when needed....I'll investigate much more when I
get to work....

I am REALLY starting to appreciate even more the concept of an integrated

system (ala PTHD) ... seems they resolved all these internal/external
goodies issues long ago...

Or maybe, I'm making it way more difficult than it has to be...but (Yoda
voice here) sleep I won't until mystery resolved is...

Again, gents, thanks for the guidance...

__________________
Ken Morgan
Wireline Studio
Midland, TX

11-05-2005, 01:20 PM #7

Join Date: Jul 2004

Bill@WelcomeHomeStudios Location: Pittsburgh
Gold Club Member (1000+ posts) Posts: 2,590

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wireline

...I would hope the difference between the 32bit Samp mixer and
the 40 bit Totalmix mixer isn't that noticable...

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The TM is VERY complex -....steep unlearning/relearning curve.

I just hope I can find a way that the TM will supplant the Samp
mixer, .....(IE - changing the routing or automation from Samp will
also change the routing/automations inside TM...)

Or maybe, I'm making it way more difficult than it has to be...

..

"Or maybe, I'm making it way more difficult than it has to be..."

This may be the case. In terms of complexity, the I/O functions are not
much different than those of any large format hardware console... a whole
buncha gozintas, and a whole buncha comzouttas. Major difference: On a
regular console, when you select the output routing, that output recieves
the signal from the channel, post fader. With TM, each channel will have a
seperate fully adjustable output level at each output selected for it. (Almost
like pre-fade auxes, in that respect. And can be used as such.)

In my (mostly mastering and/or mixdown/assembly ) room, TotalMix doesn't

get touched after it is initally set up for the room. My main
(monitoring)feeds are constant.

TotalMix does have several user-selectable and modifiable presets. You can
build a few 'looks' that are normal to your usage and switch between them
at the punch of an on screen 'button'. Handy for templates for headphone
mixes, etc. Or you can adjust all of this stuff on the fly, because there really
isn't that much to it to use it for these tasks... the manual is a little
intimidating, as it is trying to give you a sense of the power, and offer all of
the options...you get swamped. The trick is to set it up and use it for a
while, and as you grow more comfortable with it, look over the manual
again... you'll see some things have become more clear, and some things
will jump out at you, ''Ohhhh... I can do THAT...." kinda stuff. I don't see
why you can't have already set up and running in TM, the various I/O that
you may want to use for those eqs etc that you mention, and when you
choose to use them in Samp, there they are, already happening in TM.

I see your list of gear, but I still don't get any sense of how you are trying
to use the programs, other than you talking about layering the mixers, and
there I have no idea what you are talking about. In a normal hardware
setup, you'd be looking for unity gain among devices. The same holds true
here. As I said before, in my room the TM stuff is preset, and with a given
input will provide a known output. In Sequoia I provide that given input...
that is what meters are for. I don't work in the Sequoia mixer that much,
don't more work on the Object level, or (adjusting levels) on the multitrack
Object page, in the left hand track control blocks .... but I have no problems
with the mixer. It does what I expect it to do in the way that I expect it to
do it.

I don't see how you expect to bypass the Samplitude mixer... or why you
want to.

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Just a couple of side notes to your setup... I try to get all the coloration on
the way into the box, rather than routing out afrerwards, then going back
in. This is a fairly destructive route to take, usually causing more harm by
the multiple conversions than any gains that might be seen by hitting any
'special' gear.

The FF is set up to use 9&10 as the monitor outputs. Have you tried it?

Bill
__________________
Bill Park
Welcome Home Studios

3D VIP

"...they have a coconut phone. What could go wrong?..."

11-05-2005, 02:08 PM #8

Join Date: May 2002

Wireline Location: Midland Tx
Titanium Club Member (4000+) Posts: 4,865

Wow...good timing...

Here's what I discovered (and you were right about the "Wow - I didn't
know it could do THAT" comment....)

The issues I was having were a result of monitoring externally processed

stuff AND previously recorded (IE sources) at the same time...I have since
learned/figured out/been advised to either raise/lower TM outputs OR just
mute the source tracks....I already knew I should have been doing that, but
it was a catastrophic brain f*rt...

As to inbound signal processing: I prefer doing this, but with just very mild
comp/eq, leaving some manipulation elbow room for when I submix (my
prefered method is to take similar instruments, play with their pan/levels
/whatevers at the track level, and then assign to submixes...then run the
subs through the external gear to kind of glue it all together...if that makes
sense)...

I've also been enlightened as to building/using presets, depending on what I

am doing - one for tracking, one for mixing, etc....sort of a single mouse
click to reconfigure an entire patch bay. Very cool. One thing I did notice
when experimenting with this though is I need to shut down the VIP before
switching TM presets...then simply reopen the VIP...tried it without closing
the VIP and got a couple of BSODs...maybe my system is just too old
(computer system, not the body ) to switch on the fly, but its not big deal
- took all of 4 seconds....Although my rig looks complicated, its now under
control with the TM preset options...guzintas and goesouttas are easily
switched around.

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I spoke with Sebastian at Samp, and he advised me the 32float mixer is

superior to the 40bit fixed in TM...preliminary results are confirmng this
(IMO)...and yes, now that I'm getting the hang of it, I have been just
opening TM, setting the proper preset, then closing it and working strictly
from Samp....tres cool.

As for the 'big board' comparison: it took a while, but I think I've finally
figured out that in one setup, the TM mixer is like a standard mid sized
recording mixer with a couple of auxes, etc...in another setup it acts as a
live monitor mixer (matrix mode) with each source being able to routed and
leveled to specific outputs to meet specific needs.

One thing I also discovered: that unless the "live input mode" is selected
under Samp/Seq recording option when running external reverbs, etc,
things can get really strange...that's what I was encountering....reverb
return times were not even close to synching with the source aux feeds, but
it appears all is well now.

The more I use this TM, the more I am absolutely amazed by its routing
powers...I think the manual leaves something to be desired, but that's
another discussion.

Thanks again for your assistance....

__________________
Ken Morgan
Wireline Studio
Midland, TX

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