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Partha PratimUnfollowFollow Partha Pratim

Need advise from HVAC engineers on my 72 room business hotel. VRF or Chiller Plant
Property located in Himalayan region. Max daytime temp - 28C (June) Min temp - 0-1C. Rainfall is heavy, more data in this link - http://goo.gl/AB7xQ Advantages & disadvantages of both systems. Capex & Opex of both the systems. 1 month ago

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NILESH POTDAR, Deepak Salgotra and 6 others like this You, NILESH POTDAR, Deepak Salgotra and 6 others like this 76 comments Jump to most recent comments

PankajUnfollow Follow Pankaj Pankaj Patil VRF is better option as compared to chilled water system because... 1) Avoid pumps for chilled water circulation 2) Less energy conversion hence low energy 3) Avoids water treatment. 4) And most important in your case is that VRF can be used as heat pump during cold. 1 month ago Unlike Like

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nechiforUnfollow Follow nechifor nechifor emil Chiller system. Reasons: 1. The big limitation in the literature states the refrigerant lines can be as long as 500 feet, but when you read the fine print, after the first T from the condensing unit, you are limited to 135 feet to the furthest unit. 2. chillers are factory tested, also on VRFs refrigerant leak is an issue especially if the system serves small rooms where it can cause oxygen depletion (for a hotel... well better be safe) 3. Huge quantity of expensive freon compared to cheap water 4. Chiller can be used also as a heating pump, or better use a normal heater for the water, for cold season, as all freon based heat pumps are far from being energy efficient. 5. VRF are complete, proprietary systems, from the controls right up to the condensing units, refrigerant controllers, and all the system components other than the refrigerant piping and the dedicated outdoor air supply unit(s). So for warranty we have to use only their products, specially the indoor units wich moslty suck in terms of air speed confort. 6. Life costs are kind of the same in the begining, but later the VRF failure rate is higher. 7. cheaper instalation costs, (compare 5/4" or 1/2" to 4" ....and you'll need a lot of pipe). 8. Outside air does need to be treated independently of the VRF system, but for you that

might not be an issue as you'll probably use natural ventilation anyway. Still, VRFs are more energy efficient in an ideal situation compared to chillers, so they are good only on replacing an old freon system, but on new buildings... Oh, and this is moslty a war between manufacturers so huge discounts are common and can change the balance for each project. 1 month ago Unlike Like

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KantaUnfollow Follow Kanta Kanta A VRF system is energy efficient system but for a hotel like yours Chiller plants would be more useful. As regards energy efficiency use efficient chiller Compressor with better IKW /IPLV rated and use Variable Frequency Drives for pumps [ Secondary & also for primary]. Moreover Mr. Nechifor stated earlier that the lenght of copper pipe in the case of VRF is a limitation hence the VRF has quite a few conditions attached to the system. Besides VRF would have multiple compressor whereas in Water chilling plant would have limited number of compressor . So VRF system is more vulnerable to Central plant ( water chilling system). VRF has to be services by specially trained people [ often by the supplier] but maintenance of Chiller plant are easy and not that special and costs less. Moreover if you want to cool your restaurant/Kitchen areas, the chilled water combined with Air handling unit and ducting is the best possible way than that of VRF. In both the system you would be requiring Treated fresh air. And you can install Heat recovery unit also to save energy. So if VRF is the system for saving energy then good designer & planner can save energy in conventional water chilling system too. Capex: VRF systems are costly. Opex: Efficient Chiller plants if designed & Operated properly the operation cost are not that exorbitant. 1 month ago Unlike Like

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Mohammed K.Unfollow Follow Mohammed K. Mohammed K. Raziuddin Owais I agree that in case of the hotel, Chilled Water systems will be more ideal and especially in Himalayas where you do not have problem of the water availability and also the noise criteria will be much less with the CHW application. As mentioned by Kanta A, proper design with Energry recovery will be more optimim from both Capex and Opex point of view. 1 month ago Unlike Like

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NILESHUnfollow Follow NILESH NILESH POTDAR Dear Mr.Partha I Think Air cooled chiller is suitable on this climate because cooling & Heating both are required Air cooled chiller are available in 20 to 130 TR, Design for out door use in ambient temperature of 0 to 125 deg F. Low temperature process Heat recovery Thermal storage Energy efficiencies that exceed ASHRAE 90.1 standards Reduce HFC-410 A refrigerant charge earns LEED EA Credit designs Ability generate up to 140 deg F leaving temperature for the the heat recovery applications 1 month ago Unlike Like

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Jos MaraUnfollow Follow Jos Mara

Jos Mara Iglesias Fernndez Dear Mr. Partha. Before answering, I should like to get your reply to the following questions: 1- Are you thinking the system be able to produce cooling and heating, or you have previously decided the heating be gotten by fuel or gas boilers? 2- What about the size and use of your public areas?. 3- What about the location altitude over the sea level? 1 month ago Unlike Like

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MilindUnfollow Follow Milind Milind Pawar Dear Mr. Partha, Decision of selecting airconditioning system is situational and you consider following, A) aVAILABILTY OF WATER , ELECTRICITY AND OCCUPANCY LEVEL IN HOTEL, 1) Do you have enough water available? then use water cooled screw chiller which are efficient these days along with FCU having automatic balancing valves or PICVs. 2) If you have scarcity of water then would suggest air cooled chiller and fcu. 3) What would be your load profile ? If your occupancy level is going to be more than 70% all the time then do not go with VRF. B) Location : If your hotel is remote place then see service availability and technology you are using . VRF are quiet technical and you need to really go to OEMs only. C) Maintenance cost: water cooled chiller 1200 rs/ ton , air cooled chillers 1500-1600 RS/TON and VRF 2500 -2800 rs/ton. D) Refrigerant : Use eco friendly refrigerant eighter R-134A / R 407 C Sorry cant write every thing , if you need any advise on do let me know . You can contact me on mi_0106@yahoo.com. I may be of help to you as I was in HVAC industry for 15 yrs . It will be just friedly advise to help you take right decision . Alternatively you can contact me on 9833830837. good luck 1 month ago Unlike Like

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RajanUnfollow Follow Rajan Rajan padave hello Mr.Partha if the location in Gangtok and if it is a business hotel you can certainly go for a VRF/VRV heat pump model by any company in INDIA. All the machines are good and infact they will not derate much at the temperature range of the region. But the technology to work good it takes a real good contractor to execute the project during installation . And the quality of power is also important. If their are frequent voltage surge in the region i suggest you put and surge arrestor in the elctrical panel for the VRF to protect the equipment. Some equipment come in with the built in surge protection but i really donot know which company your are going to go with but before finalisation you can ask the vendor regarding this. 1 month ago Unlike Like

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SekarUnfollow Follow Sekar Sekar Ram Partha, We are currently desgining a project almost similar to yours. Have chosen VRF. Initial costs are lesser than CHW. VRF optimizes energy under partial load conditions as well as during high diversity situations as you would expect from a hotel project. Thesed days vendors can offer 100% OA units working in conjuction with room splits (concelaed or high wall mounted), so we are able to tackle the ventilation requirements too. Corridors, lift lobbies can go with cassette units. And in Hmiachal you have the additional advantage of going for heat pumps if you so desire. Vendors can offer either cooling only or cooling + heating. The vendor supplied controls are sohisticated to such an extent that the outdoor units can produce as low as 10% of its full load capacity and the controls can measure the cooling energy consumed by each indoor unit (depends on your willingness to invest). For this application VRF could be a right choice. regards Sekar R

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NARESHUnfollow Follow NARESH NARESH KUMAR Dear Sir, I agree that in case of the hotel, seems to be VRF is more sutaible as suggested by Mr. Sekar Ram. As today in India projects of load 200 Ton are designed with VRF/VRV. However for more precise decision on hvac system you need to keep below pts in your mind :1) Your overall budget 2) Occupancy rate 3 ) Availability of water Please feel free to contact us for your quires. We are a Delhi based HVAC consulting & Contracting Firm. We are into this business sice last 30 years.You can write to us @ nkumar@dknir.com Regards, Naresh Kumar 9541182360 1 month ago Unlike Like

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JamesUnfollow Follow James James Schulz Sir, Having engineered and designed several VRF systems (LEED Silver) with the same parameters as you describe, a VRF system coupled with an ERV air delivery system will give

to the greatest level of comfort and energy efficiency. If there is an opportunity to assist, please feel free to contact me. Sincerly, James Schulz 1 month ago Unlike Like

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MahadevUnfollow Follow Mahadev Mahadev Udamale Dear sir We have another option good Free maintainance floor space not equipied Hot &cold both option in that indual operation indual bill That is Temperzone Dx system ductable unit in new tube and tube techenology .also water cooled ductale system best of best result . Pl. send detais to get proper offer mudamale@norfolkgl.com . 1 month ago Unlike Like

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Pushpinder SinghUnfollow Follow Pushpinder Singh Pushpinder Singh Rana A/C application in 72 rooms...still not a big hotel to consider Chiller..it must be VRF. This is application that would require part load operation most of times which means energy efficiency....indoor units come with noise level as low as 25dB and the from SVC & maintenance point of view, Chiller is disaster...is water so easily available in Himalayas...you are not harvesting rain water...it's still the ground water and we know the plight of water supply in hilly region....also Chiller back-up operation is weak against Hi-tech VRF system in case of failure....imagine of 1 ODU (VRF) but other modules still operating to carry on the operation...what if Chiller fails? Would you ask your guests to change room or even hotel in

the middle of night (worst case) would would the flood the blogs with this horrible experience and giving deadly blow to your business....this all is not story but practical experience from a Co. that makes both Chiller & VRF..to me, both are my product and I'd love to sell..... 1 month ago Unlike Like

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Pushpinder SinghUnfollow Follow Pushpinder Singh Pushpinder Singh Rana Thanks Mr. Kundu, And now let's see this matter from an Economic perspective.... However, at the onset, I feel I better clarify that I've no intention to promote my Co. or my product here..it's just between a sincere advice on VRF Vs Chiller irrespective of brand considered...so here goes the economic on the basis of LCC or total cost of ownership that covers initial, operation & maintenance cost (3 cost factors).. Please exploit your buyer power and ask VRF & Chiller supplier around you to make a comparative analysis on all 3 costs...it's obvious that operation and maintenance cost of VRF would be less and if the VRF supplier gives you product at the same initial price as of Chiller, the breakeven point or payback period won't exist at all (as a rule of thumb, VRF solution might have higher initial price but when competition becomes intense, you know how price cuts/discounts are offered) and if you get VRV sys at a lower initial price, all gain is yours....... Now the gist of all points... VRF is technically better by all means and it'd be more economic throughout it's life cycle over Chiller......shall one still consider Chiller...for what?? regards Pushpinder Singh Rana MBA(Manchester), B.E., LEED-Green Associate LG Air Conditioning & Energy Company 1 month ago Unlike Like

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GeneUnfollow Follow Gene Gene Eng, PE After reading all of these comments. All have vaild points to ocnsider. I tend to favor VRF due to part laod potential. What is missing in most of discussions are availability of power source. How $$ woudl be the cost to bring power in for the chiller and comparing that for the VRF. VRF would have a much higher diversity factor so that the startup current is much lower than the Chiller thus reudicng your overall electrical installation cost. Also,what are the available mechanic skill in your area. It is a huge consideration. If you have a take 3-days to get a techincian there when you have problem with a chiller, you would have a huge operating lost..consider such thing when you recommend or purchase any system, epecially for an Hotel. I think all in all, VRF is the logical and operational winner for Hotel application. It takes a business man's view in here, not a pure Engineer. 1 month ago Unlike Like

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Partha PratimUnfollow Follow Partha Pratim Partha Pratim Kundu Dear Network Friends, Its been an enlightening discussion for the last couple of days. I am grateful to all for their valuable comments. This is where LinkedIn scores highly over any other social networking site. I do appreciate each and every comment made. As a businessman i would give foremost priority to saving capital & operating costs. As a hotelier, i would give topmost priority to Guest comfort. As a responsible citizen, i would give topmost priority to the efficient use of energy & technology which reduces the environmental impact..... Partha Kundu 1 month ago Unlike Like

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Jos MaraUnfollow Follow Jos Mara Jos Mara Iglesias Fernndez Dear Mr. Partha, First of all, please excuse my English. If you do not understand something of what I write, feel free to ask again to have it clarified. My opinion about what is most convenient, if VRV system or water system, is that both are correct, and is not possible to reply any advice without try to get previously more information about your hotel. I can think of questions like: Does the hotel already exists? Is it an existing hotel and at present is not equipped with HVAC, now you want to install?. Or on the contrary is a hotel project and not yet built?. Other questions may be: What do you plan for operating the hotel, particularly for public areas? Is the restaurant only to be used by hotel guests, or is to be used also for major events and celebrations (weddings, parties, etc)? Are all the rooms the same size?. What is the size of the most of the rooms (area ft2), and the smaller room? Is the hotel a multi-storey building? How many floors? How many rooms per floor? Has the building a flat terrace on which to locate equipment, or the roof is pitched and makes it impossible to install the equipment on the outside? To respond in a responsible manner would be many more questions to ask, so I will answer based on assumptions, and letting you know what are the assumptions whose have been considered. As is my intention to give a long answer, I will send it step by step in several sending during the weekend. Regards. 1 month ago Unlike Like

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Pieter JanUnfollow Follow Pieter Jan

Pieter Jan Duineveld I prefere VRV/VRF more than chillers. VRF/VRV are more efficient, and simpel. We build malls, houses, offices, hotels, cinema's etc whit VRV/VRF But most important: the experiance of the installer!! Look carfully to his reference! Stil practice is profing only one point water (chillers) are better than vrv/vrf, We started in R22, changed to 407c, than R410.... what will come??? And the indoor units are not compateble..... So after 10 yaers spare parts are difficult to find Find a good installer and trust him... He has to build it, maintenance it etc... Greatings from the Netherlands 1 month ago Unlike Like

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Jos MaraUnfollow Follow Jos Mara Jos Mara Iglesias Fernndez SECOND SENDING Rules, codes and Standards to be applied: I do not know the technical Codes and Standards to be applied in India. In Europe in general and Spain in particular, is mandatory from 1998 the introducing of ventilation air (outside air) into all air-conditioned rooms, and is not permitted that this air be introduced by means of opened windows or natural ventilation. We need this outside air to be filtered, treated (temperature and humidity) and mechanically driven to the locals (both rooms and public areas). The reason for this imposition is obviously to guarantee inside the building a clean environment and quality air. Depending if Indias regulations require, or not, the existence of this outside air filtrated, treated and mechanically driven to the acclimatized spaces, will depend largely the type of system to be recommended. It is sure you must meet too with a Safety Code for Mechanical Refrigeration (which is usually a "Copy and Paste" of the ASHRAE STANDARDS 15 and 34). This legislation, in case of centralized facility only applies to water main thermic machinery (chillers and / or Heat Pumps) and the room in which they are located. In case of VRV, applies to the entire building. Compliance with this law criminalizes much VRV system. I will explain later why

this statement. From now to the end I am going to assume that: The legislation in India is similar to Europeans legislation, and it is mandatory the driving of outside air by mechanical means (fans), duly filtered and treated, to conditioned areas. It must be implemented a safety code for mechanical refrigeration similar to ASHRAE code. 1 month ago Unlike Like

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JonUnfollow Follow Jon Jon Shipman Contracting Limited VRF no question. The installation is simple using small pipe and you have the choice of 3 pipe heat recovery or 2 pipe which is even simpler to install. I think chillers will always have their place especially for very large buildings and they have become a lot more efficient with the advent of screw compressors etc but VRF is the 21st century technology. One of my customers in America has just won 2 Best Western hotels for Daikin over replacement chillers, the driving factor was noise, the U.S. has an ageing population and people will not put up with something in the corner of the room sounding like it's about to take off it's almost impossible to hear a VRF fan coil. Energy saving and an almost total lack of maintenance was a big factor and the fact that it is now possible to install a VRF system in aluminium with Reflok. This system delivers a super clean installation to the client virtually guaranteeing no compressor failures as the oil doesn't look like Coca Cola through brazing scale. Regardless of what installation method you use most of the VRF manufacturers have great products, Daikin would be my preference I have worked with those guys from the beginning and have their equipment in my own factory and in 6 years it has never missed a beat. Regards Jon Shipman

Partha PratimUnfollowFollow Partha Pratim

Need advise from HVAC engineers on my 72 room business hotel. VRF or Chiller Plant
Property located in Himalayan region. Max daytime temp - 28C (June) Min temp - 0-1C. Rainfall is heavy, more data in this link - http://goo.gl/AB7xQ Advantages & disadvantages of both systems. Capex & Opex of both the systems.
1 month ago

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NILESH POTDAR, Deepak Salgotra and 6 others like this You, NILESH POTDAR, Deepak Salgotra and 6 others like this 76 comments
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PankajUnfollow Follow Pankaj Pankaj Patil Magnetic elevated bearing chillers are 2 to 2.5 times more expensive than conventional chillers in India and very few companies have this product in India. Blue star have such chiller but available in less than 200 TR capacity. Daikin have wider range in this category. Also due to power quality issue, customers are still not ready to go for this type of product. But noise level is much lower than conventional chiller.

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Jagdish C.Unfollow Follow Jagdish C. Jagdish C. bhatt Pls, my opinion for VRF is the best...energy conservation..maintainance...cooling effct...etc
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EytanUnfollow Follow Eytan Eytan Magen Small projected of under 300tr are viable for VFR/VRV I think up in the Himalayas service and maintenance may be and issue. Whatever you buy make sure you have available service. VRF. Reds much less maintenance and is better for when the little or patial occupancy. Chillers need water pumps that consume energy without helping the heating or cooling system. Will it be used as primary heating system and how is the sanitary water heated can also be a factor VRF will work well even down to -20 degrees outside temperature when chillers may not or start to loose efficiency. Hope this helps. You have to have a consultant and make sure he is familiar and comfortable with all types of systems Good luck E
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AdrianUnfollow Follow Adrian Adrian Adam VRF The Best. 1. Low cost in installation, 2. Low cost in maintenance, 3. Less energy consumption, 4. Wide rage of operation, 5. Better control of rooms temperature by BMS Regards, Adrian
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DennisUnfollow Follow Dennis Dennis van der Graaf I would say if you look at the energy use in Hotels off climate systems.. i would advise you to look at the site of Swegon.com. Quality is reel high, the highest efficanty with compleet systeem build in what can communicates with almost every BMS system in the world. 85% warmt and cold regenaration with eurovent certificat. We build not only airhandelingunits butt also total systems, i can say that where one off two players in the world that are the most advanced in building total systems. We can even make callcullations for you like LCC and so on just have look its free and you only get smarter that way. www.swegon.com Kind regards, Dennis

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RossUnfollow Follow Ross Ross Goldstein I love VFR systems, One thing to do is have multiple so if it goes down you do not loose the entire hotel. In the states fresh-pressurized air is needed for Hallways in case of fire. For this part use an ERV connected to an air handler Best of luck
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AmiruddinUnfollow Follow Amiruddin Amiruddin Shaikh If humidity is not a criteria then go with 2 stage direct and indirect cooling system you can maintain temperature up to 24 Deg C RH may be 60% - 70 % operating cost will be 70 % less then VRF (DX and Chiller)
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RichUnfollow Follow Rich Rich Lotz Just be sure to have sufficient ventilation in guest room (undercut doors etc), ASHRAE has a standard for cases of major refrigerant losses with R410A, in the case of VRF systems using the R410A there could be a major problem. If there is a leak in the piping near the room it may be a major problem since R410 consumes oxygen and could possibly suffacate the occupants. Other than that it is a great system, less energy, easier install, quiet system, used throughout the world for over 30 years and is a proven system, go with Mitsubishi or Daikin, forget unproven systems like LG and others.
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PranabUnfollow Follow Pranab Pranab Duttaroy, PE We have been providing engineered solar powered cooling/heating system for clients in commercial and industrial fields. System consists of solar hot water powered absorption chiller/heater (not the expensive Daikin air bearing chiller, you referred) with backup of traditional utility energy. System reduces utility kwh and natural gas/propane and with resulting reduction of CO2 that also qualifies for GHG credits resulting in reduction of capital cost. We believe the Capex and Opex will be much less than the cost of 2 to 2.5 times for Daikin air bearing system, as you were referring to.
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TanjaUnfollow Follow Tanja Tanja Banay VRV/VRF is much more easier for installation and maintenance, and in practice it has shown very low energy consumption specially in Hotel application. In Croatia it is one of most used systems for hotel application, as well as for business buildings, both on seaside nad continental part. System can work till -25C in heating, eithout loosing COP till -10C (so called Daikin VRV Cold Region). There is also system with heat reclaim on hot water-which is very good sollution for lobby, restaurant and other common areas as they are cooled all the time during summer so there is a lot of energy to reclaim. 3-pipe system with heat reclaim between rooms offers additional energy savings and comfort to users (for high class hotels) to choose wheter to heat or cool by them self, and not by whole system. Regarding losses of refrigerant there is a rule that maximum vollume of refrigerant in system (in units+piping) is limited by vollume of the smallest room with 440 g/m3. If this rule is respected-you are on safe side.
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PetkovskaUnfollow Follow Petkovska Petkovska Sonja Given the 1.design parameters -summer lower then nominal,and average hotel occupancy statistics throughout a year) , 2.the size of the project - total water content conditioned in case of water chiller Vs. variable refrigerant flow dependent on occupancy it suggests that the system will be working under partial load from 20-80%, which gives advantage to the SEER parameters of VRF vs. WCH 3. installation , easier in VRF - especially if building construction phase is way undergoing 4. starting current, lower in VRF - important in some countries, depending on el. regulations 5. reliability and flexibility, higher in VRF 6. Opex costs, lower on VRF Regards

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SoorajUnfollow Follow Sooraj Sooraj Suresh Bapu For a hotel the VRV system can be used as it is havin less installation cost,maintenance,less power consumption n everything can be controlled by the BMS and the main thing the total load ll surely come under 300 TR below 300 TR u can go for VRF a few months only i had the my calucation for TAJ hotel n v are implementig VRV system so if it requires i can mail it to u, am working for a design consultancy so can discuss wit me abt this matter.
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KnutUnfollow Follow Knut Knut Re-Berntsen If you have Gas available, it is often the best solution with VRV (Daikin) and Aisin (Toyota) heat pump. Service freq. is very low! And very relyable!
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JILANI SHAIK I like all commets its great learning in hvac . Thanks to all to share your valuble information .
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CanerUnfollow Follow Caner Caner akar Simply expl. VRF system has more electronic parts then chiller so If an Electroic card brokes down on a outdoor unit the whole system falls down so your customers got angry fto you for Air Condition failure.And especially compressor failures occures more then chillers so changing the compressor is very diffucult for large buildings like hotel for example If service can't accumulate whole refrigarant you sholud pay lots of money for the gas.VRF system never useful for a hotel (besides economy only technically) but its absolutaly useful for middle-large applications for ex. cinemas,markets,ofices etc.
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EytanUnfollow Follow Eytan Eytan Magen Fter selling very large scale VRV/VRF I disagree with Caner's comments. A hotel especially mid size with a veriable occupancy is a clasical implimentation for VRV. In large circuits if one Outdoor fails the other back it up and continue to provide A/C. if a cmp. goes in a Multi compressor outdoor suc as in Daikin or Toshiba the otehrs continue to work

untill repair. The issue with teh gas is true. E