Answering a Critic of Christianity and God

By Thomas Paine 2nd http://independentrealist.blogspot.com/ independentrealist.weebly.com

Over the past few days I have been engaged in a discussion with a Constitution Club (note: I also blog at the ConstitutionClub.org) reader who apparently took exception to a comment made by our friend, The Conservative Hillbilly. Hillbillys comment was in regard to a ConClub article written by m082844 entitled The New American Dream. (link to original article here). Hillbillys comment, and the comment that spurred this lengthy discussion was God has been fired That say it, and explains it all! Men are placing themselves above God and it is not working out well at all. In response to this a reader using the moniker Cant Find A god replied saying that Hillbilly was implying that things worked out better when men place a god above themselves and CFAg as for supporting examples for the statement. (Obvously Hillbilly stated that that it was a when men placed God, not a god above them that things worked out better). I felt the need to contribute to the conversation at this point. At the behest of our own Dave the Sage, what follows is a somewhat abridged version of the discussion between myself and CFAg. A word of warning, as our fellow blogger Short Little Rebel would say, Its a long one, you might want to grab a cup of coffee! @ Cant Find A god, I find that many, who for whatever reason, are unable or unwilling to accept the One True God, will invariably turn to the Old Testament historical accounts of Gods dealings with the Children of Israel in order to support their argument that the One True God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is a warlike God who advocates genocide. I will not debate those specific arguments, as I have no desire to second guess God. I would like to point out, however, that the Bible is to be taken as a whole, which means in order to understand it (as much as is possible that is) one must take the New Testament along with the Old. In doing so you will find that some decrees were limited in their scope and duration, and were commanded by God for a specific purpose. Why He made these decrees is known only to Him, and our responsibility as His people is to trust Him and obey His commands. This is what is known as faith.

I will admit that at least for me, faith is a difficult concept, and one that I have struggled with from time to time. When I became a Christian, I accepted everything I was taught about the Bible. Soon, however, I was faced with the reality of life and I quickly found that life and Scripture did not always fit together. This of course caused a severe undermining of my faith. However, I have since learned that when faced with these inevitable contradictions between life and faith in God, the cause us invariably man made. A thorough examination of the Scripture and the substantial evidence supporting it has lead to a strengthening of my faith to a great degree. I cannot reject the truth of Scripture when there is so much evidence, overwhelming evidence throughout history to
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support it. To do so is akin of denying the wind simply because I cannot see it, and in turn rejecting the evidence of the existence of wind. Silliness to say the least.

I have also noticed that many of those who would deny the existence of the One True God will often point to atrocities committed in His name by those who do not truly follow Him. A prime example would be muslims. Although they claim to follow the One True God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they do not. The god the follow, allah, is a false god, and not the One True God. And again, there is ample evidence to support this. In addition, and at the risk of offending my Catholic friends, the crusades, although committed in the name of God, were not necessarily engaged in by followers of the One True God, in that Catholicism is not a true following of the One True God. Although Catholicism does contain some aspects of true Christianity, it also contains some aspects that are in violation of Scripture. I would also like to point out that many people have fallen into a misconception surrounding the crusades. They were not carried out in order to conquer muslim lands and subjugate muslims. They were a direct response to the muslim conquering of lands that did not belong to them, and the wholesale murder and subjugation of those who lived in those lands when the muslims invaded. In reality, the crusades were, in reality, very similar in purpose to the the United States response to Iraqs invasion of Kuwait the liberation of a country invaded by another country or group of people.

To get back to one of your initial comments, specifically, You are implying that things work out better when men place a god above themselves. Can you support that? I will not imply that things work out better when men place God above themselves. I will state it as a definitive fact, and history, as well as Scripture supports it. It is only when men place themselves above God in any way, shape or form that society begins to break down and atrocities are committed. Again, both history and Scripture support this, and any unbiased and thorough examination will show this to any who have eyes to see and ears to hear (to coin a phrase). CFAgs response to this was to ask for a few significant examples of societies that have flourished when they placed God above themselves (as opposed to decaying when they did not). I responded: Every society, throughout history, that has held Biblically based Judeo-Christian views, regardless of whether or not the citizens of those societies were actually Christian or Jewish, but when they held those views as their own, those societies flourished. This is not to say that there were not elements within those societies that did not hold JudeoChristian views, but they were always in the minority, and when they attempted to impose viewpoints that were not in line with Judeo-Christian views, their viewpoints were rightly seen as unhealthy, immoral, unethical and dangerous to that society as a whole. Their views were condemned by the majority of the people, and were often declared illegal. Not because they certain elements within the society disagreed, but
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because the majority of the society recognized them as dangerous. As an example, I could point to the Jews. When they followed the Lord, they were blessed and the flourished. When they disobeyed, they suffered. Not because God was necessarily inflicting punishment upon them (although He certainly did on specific occasions), but usually because they stepped outside His protective boundaries so to speak.

The same can be said about America as well. Although not all of the founding fathers were Christians (Jefferson was a Deist), they understood the necessity of holding to Judeo-Christian ethics and principles as the best way to ensure the domestic tranquility necessary to prevent the new nation from tearing itself apart. This was not imposing religious beliefs upon anyone, as one does not need to be a Christian to live according to Christian standards. Many non-Christians even today live according to Christian standards, and many of them do so better than many who themselves claim to be Christian. But that is another topic for another time. My point is, that it is not necessary to be a Christian, or even to believe in God to live according to Christian / Biblical standards. Throughout Americas history there have been elements within our society who have embraced decidedly non-Christian beliefs and viewpoints. And they are well within their rights to do so. This does not necessarily make their beliefs good or even healthy, however, just as they would be well within their rights to drink kerosene, but although it is their right, it is not necessarily healthy. Yet, there have been some elements within our society who have embraced such things as slavery, eugenics, drug abuse, discrimination, etc, and each of these things have been denounced by the majority of Americans, and made illegal because of the combined voice of that majority. In spite of the introduction of those decidedly nonChristian views, America still flourished. It was not until those governing America made the decision, whether consciously or unconsciously, to turn their collective backs on God, and to take steps to remove God from every aspect of American society as possible, that America began to decay. For example, not only was prayer removed from school (which by the way I agree with), but it has gotten to the point where prayer is now illegal in schools and many, if not most public buildings (which I vehemently disagree with), even when it is not lead by the government or its agents. Homosexuality, although a sin and an abomination in the eyes of God, is, to me, something that should not be regulated in any way. In other words, the sexual practices between consenting adults, when practiced in their own homes is between them and God and no one else. That being said, homosexuality is now regulated by the government to the point where all Americans must accept it regardless of what they believe.

This is not to say that all Americans must become homosexuals or agree with homosexuality, but homosexuals are now a protected class, and any open criticism of
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homosexuality is considered homophobic hate speech and is punishable by law. This has lead to the removal of homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), and subsequently, there is now an element within our society pushing for the removal of pedophilia from the DSM also, as well as the legalization of pedophilia. With Kathleen Sebelius (United States Secretary of Health and Human Services) recently making public statements that children are sexual beings, one has to wonder just how long it will be before pedophiles are also a protected class, free to engage in their perversions. These are just a few examples of the decay in American society (and there are many, many more, all following the same pattern of introduction, questionable acceptance, slow acceptance or forced acceptance, to acceptable practice). If one only looks with an objective eye, this pattern is clearly seen, as well as the subsequent results. This same pattern can also be seen in England and other western cultures and societies in varying degrees. So the examples are there and the results are there, historically as well as currently. CFAgs response: By giving no examples, you have supported my implication, actually, that no society has ever put god above themselves. Those societies that, by virtue of their religiousness, appear to have come closest to that standard seem to me to have had the worst outcomes, and while I am including christians in this group, I am not limiting this to group to christians. There is an area in which I actually agree with part of what you are saying. I believe that, while all religions are wholly untrue, many religions contain some components and beliefs that support individuals acting in their own rational self interests. I believe that when men act in their own rational self interest they will flourish. There is one biblical teaching that I am guessing you believe to be a virtue that, in my view, is one of the most destructive beliefs affecting us today altruism. I believe that altruism is more responsible for men not acting in their rational self interest than any other cause that comes to my mind at this time; that it is responsible for men feeling entitled to property that is earned by others rather than feeling the need to earn it for themselves. I will support this point, briefly, with a single example: the response of people in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina. What are your views on that? You claim that you follow the one true god, and that others do not. Where your religion makes no sense to you, you say such things as I have no desire to second guess God and our responsibility as His people is to trust Him and obey His commands. This is what is known as faith. If you dont use discernment in choosing your beliefs, how do you choose them? There is a ton more I would like to go into with you, but this is enough for one post. To which I responded: Actually, I gave two examples. The Jews and America. The point I was attempting to make was that these two societies (as well as others) actually did place God above themselves through their acceptance of His tenets. In the case of America, not all Americans, and not all of the founding fathers may have actually been Christians, they still recognized the need of placing God above themselves and they did this by instilling Gods tenets in the founding documents, and thus laying the foundation
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for a successful American society. It was only when the government began to remove Gods tenets from the governing of America and began instituting regulations that are clearly anti-God, that America began to decay.

I understand your belief that it is only when men act in their own rational self-interest that they will flourish, however, the term rational self-interest is a subjective term. What you may consider as rational self-interest may very well seem irrational to someone else. A good example of this is islam. Adherents of islam believe it is perfectly rational to beat their women, to behead apostates and blasphemers, to enslave others. I doubt that you would consider this rational anymore than I do. Pedophiles engage in what they consider to be rational self-interest, and as I pointed out earlier, with Kathleen Sebelius speaking in her official capacity as Secretary of Health and Human Services and saying that children are sexual beings, the rational self-interest of the pedophile community may eventually be granted validation by the federal government. Therefore, your premise that it is only when men act in their own self-interest that they will flourish is simply wrong. What is needed is a solid moral foundation for a society to flourish, and the only moral foundation that has been proven throughout history to ensure a societies success, is a foundation built upon the Biblical tenets of the One True God.

Regarding altruism, please allow me, for the benefit of others who may be reading this exchange between us, define the term. Altruism is quite simply an unselfish concern for the welfare of others. It is a Biblical concept with Christ providing the ultimate example by unselfishly offering Himself up as a sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. And naturally I do believe it to be a virtue. That being said, there are varying degrees of altruism practiced everyday by virtually every individual on the face of the planet. When is the last time you opened a door for someone, and allowed them to proceed ahead of you? That was an altruistic act. If you have ever allowed someone else to have that last piece of cake, that was altruism. Etc, etc, etc. Granted these are all extremely minor acts of altruism, but they are altruistic nonetheless. I would venture to say that if anyone has not engaged in altruism, even its most minor forms, is 100% selfish and self-centered, and I do not believe such a person truly exists.

This being said, allow me to answer your statement. If I understand you correctly, your premise is that because of the altruism of some, there are some (such as the victims of Katrina) who have come to expect the altruism of others to the extent that they now view it as their right. In other words, because of said altruism, these individuals now feel they are entitled to receive free food, help, money, etc., fill in the blank. And because of this feeling of entitlement, these individuals (now a large percentage of our society as well as societies around the world) no longer seem to be able to support themselves in any meaningful way. Although your example of Katrina is a good example (as well as the one you have asked my opinion of), I believe there are even better examples, such as the slums of Detroit, Chicago, Philadelphia, New York and other metropolitan areas; or better yet, the residents of the tent cities in Haiti. Each of these examples certainly
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seem to support your premise. However, please note I said seem to support your premise.

I do not agree that altruism has caused this subculture of entitlement. Rather, I believe it is nothing more than a taking advantage of the altruism of others, and that it has been going on for so long that it has become a generational problem. At the root, the foundation of this problem is not the altruism of others, however, it is a group of individuals (albeit a large group) who acted in what they believed to be their own rational self-interest. It may not be your definition of rational self-interest, but as I pointed out above this is an entirely subjective philosophy, and can only be defined by the individual. Therefore, it is not altruism which is destructive, but rather men acting in their own rational self-interest as defined by them.

I believe it is more than just a claim that I follow the One True God. I believe it a fact, and a fact that is born out through documented evidence. And I do not believe that I am the only one who does so. I will say that other religious beliefs are false, and I will say that not all religions lead to the same One True God. To claim that they do, or that all religions are equally true, simply shows a lack of understanding of the various religions. As a student of comparative religion for a good many years I can say that all religions are mutually exclusive. In other words, each one teaches that they and they alone are the one true religion, the one true path to God. Clearly, each religion cannot be the exclusive path to God, and be inclusive at the same time. And for the record, I do not include the New Age philosophy as a religion, as it is more of a hodgepodge of various religious beliefs chosen by the individual practitioner. One size fits all so to speak, and not an established religion.

So how should one choose ones beliefs without using discernment (you ask)? Well, to begin with, discernment is of the utmost importance, and must be used when attempting to determine which of the many world religions is true. Obviously I can neither speak nor answer for anyone other than myself with regard to the rest of the answer to this question, but I can answer be relating my own path, my own search. No, I will not attempt to witness to you at this point. As I said, I have been a student of comparative religions for many, many years. This was not something that I simply woke up one morning and decided to do over coffee and oatmeal. It was born out of a desire to know what the truth is. I believe that absolute truth is neither subjective nor objective, but is absolute and immutable. I also believe that when so many world religions exist, and each one is mutually exclusive of the others, one must therefore be true. (Of course I there is more to this, much more, but a discussion of natural revelation, general revelation, and supernatural revelation will have to wait for another time).

Therefore, faced with this seeming conundrum, I set out to discover which one was true. Although faith is a large part of every religion, I believed (and still do) that faith cannot
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be the be all and end all of my search. I simply cannot base my beliefs totally on faith alone. Perhaps I had ancestors from Missouri and need to be shown, or perhaps I am a natural skeptic. Whatever the reason, I began to seek out concrete proof, documented evidence which would lead me in the right direction. What I found was, is that only one religion, Christianity, was able to provide that proof. All other religions are either based on the teachings of man with no substantive evidence to sustain the various premises of those religions, or they are based almost completely on faith alone (again with no substantive evidence), or a combination of the two. Only Christianity provided the proof, the archaeological evidence, the natural evidence (biological, geological, etc.), the inductive and deductive evidence that showed Christianity to be undoubtedly true. This would be the discernment that you speak of, and that is how I made my decision. How I chose.

Now I will admit that not every single aspect of Christianity can be proven through these methods, and I still have many unanswered questions. This is where faith comes in and my desire to not second guess God. I firmly believe my questions will eventually be answered, I simply do not know when. What I do know, and know without any doubt whatsoever, is that no other religion can even come close to matching the evidence that not only supports Christianity, but exposes all other religions as false.

I hope that this proves to be interesting and or helpful in some way to those who read it. Please feel free to comment, as I would very much enjoy hearing what others have to say about it.

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