Deer Cloud Interview How old are you? Who is your family?

So, Ive experienced about 23 cold seasons since my birth. My mother was from the Bird Wing clan, so I am too. My father came from the Flowing River clan. I have always lived near this place, but I have met and sometimes visited people living more than 10 days away. My grandfather Panther Claw showed me to the Powerful Ones when I had survived five cold seasons. It was then that he gave me the name Deer Cloud. This name is propitious because it means we see deer tracks in the clouds, so the deer are coming towards us. The Bird Wing Clan are the protectors of Mother Life shelter. We protect the stories of the Powerful Ones by our ceremonies. Of course the fact that we are there also protects the beautiful walls from damage by animals or sorcerers. My mother died shortly after giving my sister Dove Call life. The clan cared for us and made us grow strong. I am told my father was sad for a long time after my mothers death. At last he moved to another clan, when he took another woman. I saw him several times at big gatherings. He always found me among the many people. He would look at me for a long time and ask about how I was throwing my spear. Once we threw spears together and laughed and joked. I got word last cold season that he had died after being bewitched by sorcerers (i.e. an illness). My favorites growing up were Aunt Hawk Feather and Grandmother White Rain Flower. They would hug us, and cradle us in their laps. They made sure we had food and a warm place to sleep. They sang playful songs to us and taught us about our home. They have now passed on to the other world. Panther Claw was the most experienced shaman in our clan. When he grew too old to perform the duties, my mothers brother Stone Face took his rightful place. He got the name Stone Face about seven seasons ago because part of the left side of his face did not move. Some say this was because the Powerful Ones wanted him to be strong and solid; others said he was bewitched by a sorcerer more powerful than he. He looks kinda funny, and it sometimes makes his speech hard to understand. Stone Face was always occupied by his duties, and I did not feel that he cared for me or Dove Call. He thought we were burdens to the clan. He never gave me any direct teaching. Instead, I listened carefully whenever he sang, and secretly learned the chants. Sometimes I would fall asleep during the night while he continued to sing. Sometimes I would run and play instead of listening to him during the day. But I managed to pick up a lot of it, like most others, I suppose. My best friend is now called Fat Neck. He is a man of our clan, and we grew up together. As a child he was called Badger Paw. As he grew older, his neck began to bulge, like a bladder. He is generally embarrassed by this and fears no woman will have him. This

makes him shy around the girls who come to the Big Gatherings. But he is strong and clever, and good with snares and spears. I will try to help him get a woman of his own. What are my skills? Well, as a boy I learned to make fish weirs and traps for small animals, like any boy. I snared my first deer many seasons ago (about four, really), but that first one I was unable to kill with the spear. So Badger, I mean Fat Neck, cut his throat with his knife while I held the animal. That was the first deer for both of us. We felt like real men that day, and everybody, except Stone Face, praised us. He just grunted and turned away. Now I have mastered the spear with the help of the atlatl. We practice everyday, all five young men of the clan (Deer Cloud, Fat Neck, Long Spear, Jumping Rabbit, and Blue Heron) . And so far, I am usually the best. I can throw the spear farther, and more accurately than others, most of the time. It is still hard to hit a moving target, as everybody knows. Thats where the other hunting techniques come in, like traps and snares, or herding animals into tight canyons. We always go together when we hunt, to increase our chances and enjoy companionship. It is dangerous to be out on the upland alone, not to mention along the rivers or scaling the cliffs. So we generally go everywhere in groups. I can make pretty good tools, like everybody else. Thats just something you learn growing up. If I need a knife, I find a good rock, and flake it just so, til its really sharp. Anybody can do that. You have to, to live. I can make a fire, of course. Any infant can do that. One thing I can do better than other men, besides throw the spear, is to spot plants that are useful to us. Grandmother White Rain Flower would often take Dove Call and me with her as she gathered plants to eat, and use in other ways. She taught both of us, even though generally boys dont learn this. If my father had been around, I probably would not have learned this knowledge, as it is generally reserved for females. Sometimes Dove Call and I go walking together and find many useful plants. I have to let her carry them back home in her basket, and she gets all the credit. Recently we stumbled upon a little flat cactus that Grandmother showed us long ago. It lives underneath other shrubs and is hard to see. We remembered that Grandmother told us it was a magic plant and gave brilliant dreams to human beings. She knew because she had eaten some. But she said it was too powerful for most people to eat, and only a true shaman should lead people to its glory. She told us that she had heard that some people favored this cactus over the magic horn flower, preferred by the people I know. Dove Call and I plan to go back and try the cactus ourselves soon. I am also a painter of stories. I learned to mix colors from Panther Claw, and now I have an apprentice myself, Short Finger. I paint the stories of the Powerful Ones on rock walls. Tell me about where you live.

The most amazing thing about where we live is the many story-pictures on the walls of the consecrated shelters. They have been there all my life. They tell of the beginning of the world, and Grandfather Fire, and Father Sun. The river stones tell of Grandmother Growth and Mother Rain. Several story-pictures tell about the Panther-Wolf who guards the shaman on his journey to the World of Lost and Unborn Souls. We are blessed by the Powerful Ones to live here, near three rivers. There are many canyons and streams that flow to the Mother River, and many good places to live. Most of the clans around here live near the rivers or streams most of the time. In the canyons are many rock shelters that make good places to live in bad weather or for other reasons too. The three rivers are the Snake, the Dancing Stick, and the Mother River, the greatest of all. They form a sacred landscape, which is blessed by the Powerful Ones with year-round water and generally abundant food and resources. There are also numerous springs of clear water that flow from the ground. The largest one is about three days away, across the Snake and not far from the Mother River. Tall trees grow around it, and it is a lovely place. Sometimes we go there to trade with other clans and have a good time. The water is so clear you can see the fish swimming! The air is usually warm, and sometimes downright hot. Father Sun shines brightly upon us. The little fires in the sky at night are bright and many. I believe they cannot be counted, because they are always moving. Perhaps new ones appear where we arent looking! They form a great band of white light across the sky, with many interesting clusters in the form of Powerful Ones and their helpers. It is a great task to keep Father Sun happythe world would surely end if he did not return from the underworld one day! Our shaman have listened to the Powerful Ones and make sure we give pleasing offerings to them, and please them with our songs. Of great importance is pleasing Mother Rain and Grandmother Growth. Some seasons they do not visit us at all. We are always happy to see grey clouds in the sky and feel the wet rain upon us! Plants and animals to feed us and help us are abundant after it rains. But many times it is so hot and dry, the plants shrivel up and animals hide. Then our ceremonies are doubled, so that we can live. Because this is such a good place to live, there are many people here, between the rivers. Also on the other side of Mother River, but my family does not go there often. Life is too good here! We have everything we need. You can always see the smoke of many fires across the country. Other people come to this area for ceremonies honoring the Powerful Ones throughout the year. One year the Panther-Wolf Society will perform in a high shelter on the Dancing Stick, sometimes upstream at Flat shelter, and in other years on the Little Turkey stream. Thats just an example, there are many others throughout the year. Am I in love with anyone?

No, not at the moment. I like the girls, though. I like to flirt with the pretty girls that come to the Big Gathering, with hopes that one will take me home someday. Men live with the womans camp, if they are serious about mating. But I havent been serious about anyone yet. Oh, I have my pleasure, thats for sure! I have never had a woman turned me down, in fact. I am lucky that way. My lovers all live with other clans, of course, although sometimes we spend a night or two at my place. They dont seem to mindI make sure of that. One thing I am not is a stupid lover! I make sure I always please her. How else can I get her to please me again? Young men and women like to go to Rabbit Springs, for fun and pleasure. It is a beautiful spot, with a clear spring flowing at the bottom of a cliff. Young water ferns grow from the rock and cattails flourish along the channel. In season we gather some of them for food and other uses. But mostly we go to enjoy the green grassy lovers bed at the edge of the stream. It is shaded by the cliff, and protected from the hot sun. So it stays green almost all the time. If a group of us is there, we like to drink, and sing, and joke around before enjoying the pleasures. Sometimes it gets a little wild, with the girls dancing around in ways that would make their fathers throw them out! But it makes us glad! Its what we live for, most of the time. The unmated ones usually meet there on the night of the New Moon. Weve talked about trying to meet on the Full Moon too, but it is hard to break away from the obligations of the clan for that night. One time several of us tried to break away late in the night, but an old grandmother saw us with one eye and made a fuss! We dont dare try it again. Now we try to get there before sundown, so we can build a fire and roast a little dinner too. Dove Call came to Rabbit Springs for the first time last spring. She has just become a woman, and is starting to notice young men. She had a good experienceso I surmised with Little Eagle from the Cottonwood Clan. He is a nice, rather quiet fellow, and I wouldnt mind if she brought him home. In fact, he could be helpful to uswe need another strong hunter. What are some of your stories and beliefs? I love to listen to the stories from the Old Ones about how our world began. How Our Brother the possum first brought forth fire from the wood. Fire lives inside the wood, you see. To bring it out, possum rubbed two sticks together, until fire leapt out. We must feed wood to the fire to keep it going on the outside. Fire is good to us. It keeps us warm and makes a camp feel friendly. It cooks our food, and dries our meat. It gives light at night, just like Father Sun during the day. It keeps hungry animals away at night when we are sleeping. That is why we never eat possum, because he is the Bringer of Fire. I have heard that sometimes the Lightning Spears of the Rain Guardians can start fire in the grass, but I have never seen it myself. Adults take the horn flower in order to commune with the Powerful Ones. It is too strong for children however, plus they have not yet gained understanding of the purpose. Listening to the Powerful Ones is necessary in order to know what offerings they demand.

They instruct us concerning required ceremonies to keep them happy and maintain the cosmos. Old Stone Face is the head shaman now for these ceremonies. One ceremony is held from time to time at one of the Panther-Wolf shelters. The PantherWolf is the helper for the horn flower. Some of the men from each clan are dedicated to the Panther-Wolf Society. They are initiated by the head shaman (Stone Face and two others) into the secrets of the horn flower. When they dance, they look like all their bones are gone. They weave back and forth, and often fall down. Sometimes they cry out like panthers. Various ceremonies are held at Mother Life Shelter, where I live with my clan. The Womanhood Ritual is held there about once per season, without any men of course. In this ritual, the grandmothers teach the young women all the stories of the clan. All the ancestors are painted on the walls, and the girls must learn each song by heart. When the girls emerge from these five days of ritual, they are true women of the clan. Dove Call just went through this recently. Another ceremony is held every full-moon night. This night is for the sacred chants and offerings to hold up the night sky, and keep it from falling down, and thus smothering the sun, which is traveling in the Underworld during this time. A great shaman with black down the middle is painted here. Two smaller shaman stand on either side, their arms spread. This represents the full-moon ceremony, which the three head shamen must perform. The third ceremony generally held here is the one calling on Grandmother Growth to protect the worldthe plants, animals, and humansand make them flourish. The only time it was conducted somewhere else was when the water was very high in the rivers, and the stream in front of the canyon roiled like an angry brown snake ball! That year, we held the ceremony on the uplands, under a brush shelter, even though those from across the rivers could not come. Mother Rain was generous that season! Would that she would come half that much each cycle of the Yellow Lizard! What is your most prized possession? My spears and atlatl, of course. I made all of them myself. Dancing Stone was the best atlatl maker in for many clans around, and he showed me his secrets. He was not stingy with his knowledge, however, and showed many young men. The atlatl is made of XXXXXXXXXXX, and the spears of XXXXXXXX. I flake out sharp darts for the ends and attach them with XXXXXX. What was your most exciting hunting experience? Snaring my first deer with Fat Neck was a good day. I felt like a man that day. Have you ever taken horn flower? Are you a panther-wolf man? If not, why not? If so, whats it like?

Yes, I take it like everybody else. I dont like it much, but we have to do it to hear the Powerful Ones and please them. Horn flower makes one intoxicated with the Powerful Ones. They show us their power over us and demand that we serve them. The Powerful Ones make us tremble and stagger with the horn flower. Sometimes their power causes us to fall down and go to the underworld for a while. When we come back to this earth, we feel tired from the struggle. This struggle pleases the Powerful Ones, according to the shaman. I am not a panther-wolf man. I have not yet been asked to join the society. Perhaps soon. Tell me about the little fires in the sky? What is the Yellow Lizard? The little fires in the sky at night move from place to place throughout the suns cycle. The Yellow Lizard is our name for a particular group of little fires. We say they look like a yellow lizard. The Yellow Lizard is visible in different places at different times of year. Certain ceremonies are held when it reaches various positions in the sky. How does the full-moon ceremony go? How does the Grandmother Growth ceremony go? How did Father Sun and Mother Rain come to be? What powers do animals have? What is the difference between animals and humans? What is the purpose of animals and humans? Why are they different? Or are they? The purpose of human beings is to perform the ceremonies needed to please the Powerful Ones. Without these ceremonies, the sun could not come back from the underworld. It is because we must perform these rituals that we make children, so the our world will continue. Have you ever seen a buffalo? Or hunted one? What does it taste like? What powers does it have? I have seen a few, they come here sometimes, especially in good rain years. Once I saw a herd of about 20 animals. The men killed one of them and brought it to the group. It was good, but a little dry. They say these animals bring life, but also more responsibilities to the Powerful Ones. What is special about birds, fish, turtles, lizards, and snakes? What about insects and worms or caterpillers? Do you know how to make paint for the story-pictures? Are you one of the artists?

Yes, I am a painter, since I am from the Bird Wing Clan. I am working on a small painting overlooking the Snake River right now. It is a very sacred place, near the mouth of the Mother River. I am painting the story of Dawn Mountain, Mother River, and Mother Moon. Mother River and Mother Moon are the most important figures in this painting, but I set their story in context with Dawn Mountain to express our life more completely. I mix paint from various colored stones and deer marrow, with a little juice from the yucca plant. I have four colors: orange, gold, black, white, like the four directions. For us, the rock surface we paint on represents the fifth direction, the center, since it holds everything together. The surface face is the most important thing, but each color tells us something important. The paint is made of ground colored stones, yucca root soap, and deer marrow. We use black manganese, red ochre, yellow ochre, and XXX for white. Even for gathering the pigments, there is ceremony that I must perform. I ask for the blessings of the Powerful Ones, so that I can tell their stories. I use a shredded sotol leaf or sometimes a certain size stick to apply the paint. Ive experimented with other tools, such as little brushes made of feathers or deer hairs, but they dont work as well. The feathers dont carry the paint at all, and the deer hair brush I tried just fell apart. Its just not strong enough for Grandfather Rock. There are many painters around here sometimes, depending on what must be done. Right now me and my helper, Little Wolf, are working at this spot. But Ive heard others are working about two days away on another project. Our clan has been painting stories here for a long time. Panther Claw himself blessed this shelter for me when I was a child. I was destined to paint here. My life is to tell this story for all the people to remember. One cannot really be a painter until one is a man, and even then there are many tests that must be undertaken. Like, Id better not miss a full-moon ceremony, ever! If I were not there to receive that blessing, my work would be set back for at least half a season, if not two. I would have to make many costly offerings to get back in the good graces of the Powerful Ones, if I missed that ceremony. It is essential for everyone. How do you dress in the various seasons? In the hot season, there is only need for a soft skin to protect our loins, sandals, and usually a broad-brimmed woven hat to shield us from the suns power. On cold days, we add capes of rabbit skin or turkey feathers, or softened deerskins. We also wrap our legs in soft deerskin and add skin coverings for the feet. If it is really cold, we use heavy buffalo sleeping hides to wrap ourselves in. Occasionally it rains, and our hats help keep us dry. We also add sotol leaf capes to stay dry, or sometimes to keep insects off the skin. Men and women dress mostly the same, since the needs are similar. Babies are wrapped in rabbit skins on cold days, and soft skins sometimes.

How do you wear your hair? My hair touches my shoulders. Someone cuts it with a knife for me when it gets uncomfortable. In the hot times, our people like to put cool river mud on our hair and pat it onto the top of our heads. It feels good until the mud dries out and starts to flake off. Then we must do it again. We rarely go far from the river during the very hot times. Just walking across the uplands or climbing up a cliff in those times can kill you. Of course we also wear hats made of woven sotol leaves. We make them with wide edges to shade our faces and necks. Do you have any tattoos or scarring? What do they mean? How did you get them? Oh I have plenty of scars. Who doesnt? Getting scratched or breaking the skin is part of life. The biggest scar I have is on my right leg. I fell down a rocky ledge about three cycles of the Yellow Lizard ago. It bled and bled. A woman of the group put honey and herbs on it, then covered the wound with mud and tied it with rabbit skin. I recovered OK, but the scar is a reminder to be sure-footed. When we kill our first deer, men get a tattoo down the middle of their forehead and nose. It marks us as real men. Fat Neck and I got it at the same time. It hurt! But we couldnt cry out. The shaman gave us a mild datura drink to consume as it was done, which gave us a feeling of floating on clouds. It still hurt though. All men in our group have this. Shamen can add tattoos of undulating snakes on the cheeks, one on each side to make their initiation by the Powerful Ones. Generally this only done after five trials have been completed, but Stone Face felt his fourth trail was enough, and did it before the fifth trial. Some people in other clans thought this was against custom and a sure sign of trouble. Do you wear any jewelry? What? Why? I have a panther claw necklace from my grandfather. It reminds everyone that I am of his loins. What about your teeth? Dont they hurt? Ive been pretty lucky, and still have most of my teeth. Ive got one in the back that hurts from time to time, however. I sometimes massage it with willow bark soaked in mild horn flower water. I also rub honey on my teeth whenever I can. Everybody does this. I broke a front tooth on a pebble that was in the stew one time. I just bit right down on it, expecting a bit of meat, and crack! I spit it out on the ground. I hurt that night! We used a strong potion of willow bark and horn flower petals mixed with ground seeds and honey. What about other peoples teeth? Isnt that a problem? How do they get that way? Loosing and breaking teeth is common. Sometimes just a small piece of took breaks off. Some people have very broken teeth and can barely chew. This is a problem. They hurt a

lot and loose other abilities. Cracking teeth on rocks in food in the usual thing that happens, but sometimes people break teeth if they fall or slip while climbing up and down the cliffs. When choosing a mate, people look at their teeth. Good teeth indicates long life and productivity. Bad teeth? Well, you know theyre going to be in pain not able to work as much as others. Likely they will have a short life. What do you usually eat? Who cooks for you? What do you contribute to this process? Since I am not with a mate, and my mother is dead, Aunt Hawk Feather cooks for me when she can. At least she is the one in charge. Most of the hard work is done by Dove Call and other unmarried girls. We all eat together, with one woman in charge. We are a small group, so this is doable. Larger groups have different customs. Aunt Hawk Feather makes sure cakes are always available. We eat those whenever we feel hungry. Also dried meat. If there is any meat left over from the night before, we finish that during the day. Special treats include cactus tunas preserved in honey. By thunder! Thats my favorite! When I was a boy, I would sneak those whenever I could. But now that I am a man, it is my duty to restrain myself and only eat them on special occasions. What are the cakes made of? Really, you need to ask Aunt Hawk Feather about that. I dont know exactly how she does it. But generally, cakes contain ground seeds mixed with different things. They could be mixed with tasty leaves and onions, agarita berries, tunas, bits of meat. Sometimes even honey. They are mixed with deer fat if we have it. Young girls near womanhood and young women must make these everyday, and dry them on rocks in the hot sun or near the fire in cold or wet weather. We look forward to the ones mixed with bits of meat and dried near the fire in winter. They are special foods of the season. Fresh meat is cooked in various ways. There is usually a skin near the fire with water in it that boys throw bits of meat from rabbits, lizards, snakes, fish, or other things they have killed each day. Girls add herbs, onions, or berries when they gather a handful. Not much is wasted. This stew varies according to the finds of the day. We eat it all the time. We eat something when we wake in the morning, either a cake, cold meat, or a bit of stew. During the day we eat what we need when we are hungry. We carry dried meat and cakes with us when we have to leave home. At night we all come together before darkness and share food around the fire. If a deer or many fish have been caught that day, we all share in the bounty. Fresh marrow bones are a treat.

Gathering together at the end of the day around the fire with full bellies, that is the best time for us. We have lived another day. Grandfather Fire has helped us again. Father Sun has shined his brilliance on us. Grandmother Growth has been at work. We feel comfortable and tell stories before we sleep. Have you ever been sick? Was it sorcery? Are all illnesses and accidents sorcery? Like others, I have been the victim of sorcery. I remember when my guts were inflamed with evil. I thought I was going to die. I puked everything out, and then kept on puking with nothing left. My head hurt, my bones hurt, my muscles ached. This is the work of witches. This has happened several times in my life. I feel certain if Panther Claw had been alive, he could have protected me. Stone Face does not have the ear of the Powerful Ones like Panther Claw did. Oh, Stone Face tried, I suppose. But he doesnt know the proper chants or he makes mistakes. One wonders if he does it on purpose, just to torture you. What do you do for sickness or broken bones? The shaman treat people who are sick or injured. They sing the right songs, blow smoke, fan with the hawk wing, touch the fan to the ill person. They mix medicines gathered by the women and dose the person. There are many plants for medicines. My Grandmother White Rain Flower knew so many of these. Dove Call and I used to go with her when I was young, and she taught us much. For headache and other pains, there is willow bark. For scrapes and cuts there is honey and spider web, sometimes packed in mud, sometimes mixed with willow bark or horn flower. If someone breaks a bone, they will soon die in agony. Our shamen sing special songs to hasten the trip of this soul through the underworld. How do you know when the Powerful Ones are visiting with you? How do you know if they are happy or angry? Do they ever get disappointed in human beings? What can people do to keep that from happening? We take the horn flower to visit the Powerful Ones. It is taken in different ways for different ceremonies. For the Full Moon Ceremony, we usually drink crushed horn flower petals mixed with water. Stone Face prepares this drink each cycle. It is made in a large closely-woven basket covered with sap to make it water tight. The drink must sit for three days before taking. The Powerful Ones appear a little while after taking the horn flower. They are sometimes difficult to understand, and wander around as they talk to us. They do not look like you and me, or even any animal. Instead they look like bright lights XXXX that move and dance.

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Each person can feel if the Powerful Ones are pleased or displeased, however, the head shaman gives the official interpretation, since he has had more experience. At some point during the night of the ceremony, the shaman begins to talk, and interprets what the Powerful Ones are saying. The ceremony must be finished by the time Father Sun rises to bring the new day. The Powerful Ones are often displeased with human beings. They show their displeasure by holding Mother Rain in her cave. They wont release her gray cloud sentries to approach us. Our great fear is that they will block Father Sun from returning one day. So, it is our sacred duty to perform the ceremonies. Once, when Panther Claw was young, Father Sun became dark in the middle of the day. It was the most terrifying thing anyone had ever known. That will never be forgotten. Everyone feel to the ground crying, and praying. The shaman shook his Spirit Wands at the heavens, and chanted as loud as he could. Hear me, hear me, O Father Sun! Return to us! We are your servants! Return to us! Protect us! Give us back our life! Even now those words are chilling. Father Sun did return, thankfully. So everyday we must help him hold up the sky and please all the Powerful Ones to keep our world going. What makes you laugh? Do your people like to laugh? Tell me some jokes. My people like to laugh! One funny story is about a Powerful One with an enormous schlong. It is so long, he has to wrap it around his waist three times! It is so long he can enter a woman on the other side of a shelter without even getting up from his bed! Long schlongs, short schlongs, giant tits without a baby to nurse, all these things are funny. Farts are funny. Sometimes someone in camp will let one blow, and everybody laughs. There is one story about XXXX, the helper of XXXX, one of the Powerful Ones, who farts when he tries to move a boulder. I never get tired of that one.

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