League of Ireland Fans Forum 30-6-2012 Teachers Club, Parnell Square Notes by Niall McClave

Lee Daly opened the meeting at 3pm and welcomed all those in attendance. He explained that the meeting was an effort to capture the mood out there amongst League of Ireland (LOI) fans, that there were several issues and problems and that clubs were running into problems. The need for the meeting was felt after the week that had just been, with the praise and the admiration for Irish fans in Poland on one hand and the situation with Monaghan United on the other. Today, the main aim is to start a conversation and debate amongst LOI fans. Lee then introduced Niamh OMahony, who is on the board of Foras and on the board of Cork City. Niamh wasnt there to represent either of those bodies but to speak on her own behalf about a European project that she is Project Manager of, in collaboration with Supporters Direct and 8 other partners in 7 countries. She first spoke about the situation in Cork over the past number of decades, how Cork City is the oldest club in the city at only 28, and a number of clubs have failed due to bad governance. FORAS was set up with the objective of helping the Club and its then Chairman Brian Lennox, with the aim of creating assets that could then be shared with the club on a nominal basis. The week they were launched however, the club went into examinership. In 2010, after receiving a Licence to play in the First Division - and Cork City being refused a Licence entirely FORAS set up a new club in 10 days. She noted that they did receive support from Shamrock Rovers and people in England that were interested in what they were doing as a Trust. Niamh then spoke about how coming so close losing your club is not something you would wish on anyone. What happened to Monaghan United hurts everyone. Sponsors become less supportive of the league and other clubs if they feel that the league lacks respect. She then went on to spell out that research which will happen as part of the EC Project will aim to show that supporters have a positive influence on clubs the more involved they are. She noted that it can be easier to get sponsorship as a fan-owned club as you are selling the community. There are a number of projects running that will feed into and from this process. There will be a national survey on supporters views on what is happening at the moment with Irish football. There will also be a national workshop for supporters trusts and supporters groups and supporters clubs around the country. Areas that will be covered

include: what help is out there; how to organise; past experiences and legal expertise. She concluded by noting that people have a choice at the moment to wait on governing bodies to do something or to go out themselves and look for opportunities. The meeting was then opened up to the floor for a general discussion. The following points were made and discussed: There is a need for a council of groups and supporters trusts. 90% of club problems are identical. Historically, clubs have revelled in each others demise. If clubs continue to act as individual identities there is a fear that the LOI could be gone in 2-3 years time. If we want our own clubs to thrive we need a strong league. The way clubs were run in the past didnt work and FORAS is recognition of this. They are a great asset for all, given their experience. It was noted that since the setting up of this meeting there have been offers from groups in the UK of support to the initiative. The point was then raised about how the league is run with regards to fixtures at the moment is hurting clubs. With each club meeting each other 3 times a season this means that one club is put at a disadvantage having to pay to travel to two away matches. It was suggested that in this situation the two clubs could try and come together to get joint sponsorship for the three matches and divide it evenly. Clubs should kick each other on the pitch but try and work together off it. It was then noted that it is not clear that the League had a long-term strategy. Every stakeholder seems to be operating day to day. Even when you ask supporters, they have a definite idea of where they want their own club to go within the next 5 years, but not the league. It was noted that in the past year we have had the high of one club competing in Europe and one club pull out of the Premier Division. The effects of Monaghan pulling out of the league were discussed. The unfairness of the situation of having the results against that club expunged were noted, with teams that had lost to Monaghan actually ending up better off than teams that had beaten them. It was pointed out that teams having to pull out mid-season reflects badly on the league and makes it harder for existing fans to get new fans interested in coming to games. It was particularly frustrating as with English teams in off season, it would have been a perfect time to attract new fans. It was also noted that in similar situations in England clubs are forced and supported to see out their fixture list before pulling out. Further to the discussion regarding Monaghan, it was felt that it was clear to see that the FAI did not have a full picture as to what was going on with that club and situation. It was frustrating to see what was going on in Poland while people in Ireland were losing their jobs.

A concern was noted whether the FAI would promote supporter groups in a democratic fashion or simply to make money. In response to this it was felt that the FAI see the rise of supporters groups across Europe and dont know yet how to deal with them. They are concerned because in Irish football everyone knows everyone and supporters groups are a relative unknown. Its not clear that every club would benefit from being supporters-run but all would benefit from some level of involvement. Other points noted at this stage were the levels of frustration stakeholders can feel at the lack of response from the FAI to concerns raised. At times it feels like the LOI is nothing but a necessary evil to the FAI. A discussion was then held about the requirement in the licensing system for clubs. One point made was that under licensing, clubs have to have a supporters liaison. This could be a great way for the club to talk to the supporters and vice versa however this shouldnt be a member of the board talking down to supporters. However a problem with the licencing system is that it is forcing ideas on clubs without giving any backup to help clubs fulfil these requirements. There is a feeling that FAI staff see the LOI and the licencing system as a stepping stone to a job with UEFA. A lot of these issues could be helped if clubs ran the league themselves not the FAI. There was a general feeling that clubs need to recognise themselves as part of the community and both feed into and out of that position. It was disappointing to see some clubs going to the High Court to say they didnt want to pay firms. Some of these firms will be local and this will hurt the local community. The question was then asked about how much communication there currently is between clubs. There are currently quarterly meetings with FAI reps. It was felt that the Chairpersons of the clubs should be meeting. This however while being great for Dublin clubs might be problematic for others. It was noted that if clubs were meeting at this level that Monaghan may have gotten the advice and support it needed earlier. It was said that if you take football out of it, regular businesses are networking and football as a business should be no different. It would remain to be seen how comfortable the Chairperson of Rovers for instance would be discussing development plans with Bohs. While it might be hard for clubs to put aside individuality and to work together there was much greater scope for fans groups to work together. It was then felt that as the discussion had focused a lot on governance it might be worthwhile to move the discussion on to the match day experience. A specific list of problems with the treatment of Shels fans was brought up. The club has been fined a number of times: for having flares in Tolka Park; as an away team, a supporter had a flare in the stands; a fan got on the pitch when there were no stewards in the section; fans leaving their assigned section when celebrating a goal, even though they had not

entered the pitch; and finally for the content of some of their songs. This was felt by some to be impinging on their freedom of speech. It was asked whether it was the policy itself or the communication of it that was the problem. To this it was replied that it was both, it was also an issue that the fine was increased if it was appealed. This is also the case with player suspensions. It was then noted that it was understandable that the club boards were cracking down on fans and telling them what not to sing when they were being fined by the FAI. It was suggested at this point that with regards to points made earlier, that fan ownership of clubs may be the only sustainable model. It was then said that there was a belief that fans not showing up at games was not because it was a bad experience, but rather a lack of marketing. There were 20, 000 fans in Poland but only 7,000 at LOI matches because it wasnt marketed. It was also pointed out that RTEs Summer of Sport ad didnt even include the LOI. It was asked was any of this our fault as fans for having a somewhat holier than thou attitude. It was pointed out that watching English and Irish clubs was not mutually exclusive. Hooking new fans should be on a you can support both basis. There was then a discussion around the scheduling of games being an issue. Noted were; the problem of having a match moved to 7.05 in Bray due to television needs. This would present problems for fans trying to make it out from Dublin after work. The same thing happened to Pats when playing in Sligo. It was noted that some games were now being moved to Sunday. This is of particular importance because clubs do not get TV revenue directly, so suffer greatly when there is a loss of gate revenue. It was felt that Friday night football in general was unsustainable. The first thing that should happen is to move games back to Thursday nights. The discussion then moved to media coverage. There was a suggestion that fans should do a media watch and contact media outlets that dont cover LOI. Games are jammed in between Premiership Football, International Football, Rugby and GAA. We could start initially by doing things within our own club. A specific issue around the safety of getting into and out to Tallaght Stadium with regards to buses was then brought up. It was noted that issues like that needed a fans organisation to make representations to Dublin Bus. This should start with your own club but a network of clubs fans can help. It was then asked do we do enough to work with other sporting organisations. The GAA has far more interested fans than the LOI. An issue raised was that people see Skys coverage of English football and think that thats what football is. Then they turn on a LOI match and it looks basic with 2 camera angles. It

was also felt that MNS is starting to cover more and more international football rather than LOI. One participant felt that if the LOI games were played in bigger stadiums they would get more crowds as the games would seem more attractive. There are specific problems around the perception and accessibility of LOI games. However, it was noted that the facilities are the best theyve ever been and crowds are the lowest. There are deeper issues like cup games mid-week costing 15 for Monday and Tuesday nights. Other indicative factors are the lack of ads for the Leinster Senior Cup and prize money being reduced. There was then a question asked about crowd trouble at games, do clubs talk to the fans. It was noted that if stewards dont have their PSA licence, clubs should be fined. Stewards should also be displaying their licence when on duty. It was asked if clubs were being inspected. As part of their contract with security firms the onus for complying with this should be put on the security firm. However since clubs cant afford to pay stewards many are using volunteers. This wouldnt be as big an issue if volunteers are PSA licensed and there is fan buy in. This is an issue that needs to be dealt with collectively and any fans committee should focus on issues like that. It was noted then that there was a general feeling that the league was going backwards. There was a time previously when the marketing line for the league was Its not as bad as you think. It was felt by some that apart from facilities that the matchday experience is good, the problem is the marketing. However, others felt that fans were being demonised for being human and that policing shows signs of being reactive and not properly planned. The example of the use of flares was noted. It would be possible to get the correct mix of safety and atmosphere at games. The emphasis should be on safety, not sanitisation which exists at the moment. Ultras groups were seen as being particularly good for atmosphere. Germany was highlighted as great for organising superb atmospheres with safety included. This was partly because clubs in Germany have a proper membership structure. However it was noted that participation in clubs was not great, with AGMs and other meetings not attracting great attendances so it is not a perfect solution either. It was then asked that if there was a fans organisation, should it cover international matches. There already is the YBIG group for internationals, which has a good relationship with the FAI. It would be a good group to target to establish relations with. However it was felt that any potential LOI organisation should remain separate as some were not as interested in international games. As the meeting was nearing its end time it was decided to move the discussion on to what happens next. It was felt that the project mentioned at the start of the meeting would contribute and would provide needed research, however that alone would not be enough - fans need to

create something that gives us a voice. There is much common ground between clubs. Any movement created needs to be transparent and open. Supporters are the best people to advise on some matters. We would be starting from scratch and would have to take what we have and build on it. Even if we had an independent forum that met twice a year it would be better than what we have now. It was felt that the group present should form a working group and make an effort to decide what we are and what our aims are. Supporters Direct would be able to provide a lot of the tools we need. It was felt that the organisation needed to be national and should organise events around different areas such as the South West, West and Border Areas. At the very least we should leave this meeting with an ad hoc committee which would need to be transparent and communicate regularly with everyone. This needed to be a bottom up organisation and all League of Ireland fans should be able to feed in to it. The group also said that the working group should do the following: endeavour to get a message into programme notes; organise communication lines via Facebook, email and Twitter. Aim to include more members than the Dublin heavy group that was able to meet at short notice. The next meeting should include more people from outside Dublin. The meeting was closed and those present were asked to help contribute towards the cost of renting the room and to fill in the sign in sheets and to note any particular skills they could bring to the group.